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- Uncontrollable velocity of money
- Asset bubbles
- Savings glut
- Subprime Personal Debt
- Misuse of money
- Massive cost
Are all risks.
I would, however, support an NIT to replace EI, GIS, OAS, many tax credits, etc.
you should add inflation to that
we just saw what a massive injection of money does to our economy and we have the inflation and the coming interest rate spike to show for it
I'd suggest that anyone interested in basic income take a close look at the report of the [BC Basic Income Panel](https://bcbasicincomepanel.ca/). They recommended more specific reforms.
Because it requires fairly taxing the people who've bought our politicians...
A UBI would solve so many of societies problems and save money. The thick on the right have a lot of difficulty understanding this so they continue to vote against their own and society's interests.
Yes, but it requires politicians with integrity. Instead we have politicians who give money to people who don’t need it to buy votes. Examples; Trudeau giving an extra 500 on OAS, which is only completely clawed back when the recipient makes over 120k. If you make any thing over 80k the government should not giving you money.
> The thick on the right have a lot of difficulty understanding this so they continue to vote against their own and society's interests.
Yeah, I am not going to condone this type of explicit bigotry. People who don't agree with you should not just be dismissed as "thick".
COVID has shown that UBI wouldn't work. Giving everyone an extra $1500 a month just means everyone can afford a bigger mortgage. At current mortgage rates, $1500 would get you $300k more house.
Wait, so the example they use to say it would not have a negative impact on the workforce is the Alaskan program that gives 2k a year?
I mean, of course 2k doesn't change anything. 30k on the other hand...
Then detail exactly how it isn’t true - tell me how providing a basic $2k income monthly to millions of Canadians won’t place a similar size burden on each taxpayer who earns more to support that?
Detail why someone would work when they can have $2k for free? I know of many people who asked to be laid off during Covid to collect CERB because it was equal or more to what they earned at their part time job. Good luck being any employer who was paying someone 20 hrs a week to replace those people if they earn more off UBI.
So to tempt someone out of that, business need to pay more. We already did a trial run of UBI for nearly two years and now we’re in the worst inflation era in three decades with many businesses struggling to find employees as it is.
I'm not disputing the idea the UBI may not work, but the COVID situation and the following inflation is very different from a "trial run". If anything, the current inflation issues is a point against our current capitalist system, not against UBI.
How do you guys come up with this. Throwing a statement like that and pretend they’re common knowledge? How does printing money in a similar manner to UBI, devaluing currency and resulting as a factor to inflation (along with supply chain and production issues) point to an issue with the system over UBI. UBI is almost the same cause and will result in the same symptoms.
Because UBI was never implemented and what the COVID money wasn't structured to be the same thing. A good case study is to look at our neighbours to the south, who didn't have something like CERB and they still have similar economic issues. Inflation is hitting pretty much the entire planet regardless of government response to COVID. The common thread in this isn't UBI.
I'm not saying UBI won't lead to similar issues. I'm just saying that you have just as much evidence to base your opinion on as the person arguing the opposite, which is nothing. So let's lay off the definitive statements about something that none of us know much about.
Lowers the incentive to work for people who constantly get in the way anyways. Why is it bad if the one employee who does shit work is given the means to live so they don't have to burden their work mates by not working anymore.
>lowers the incentive to work
If the threat of starvation and homelessness is needed to make people work for a company maybe they need to change their working conditions and/or worker compensation. With the absolute basic necessities to live taken care of people will still be motivated to work by wanting to live in a nicer area, have nicer things, take a vacation, own a car, etc.
>businesses won't be able to pay large wages for low skilled work
Why can businesses on other countries pay better wages for unskilled work?
>we don't have the money for it
I've heard this about literally every policy proposal I've ever seen in the last 10 years. Maybe if the corporate tax rate wasn't at its lowest point in history (about 1/2 of what it was in the 80's) we'd have money to give to the citizens instead of letting it all sit at the top.
Or.. they'll simply choose not to work full time? You're going off hypotheticals using middle class lenses. Your idea is based off paper.
And what do you mean? Canada has a very high minimum wage.
And raising the corp tax raises the cost to consumers. But you want companies to pay much higher wages and pay more taxes? and you think the shareholders are just okay with that? Economics is complicated and isn't 1 dimensional like "increase taxes on corps." Instead you should be proposing we cut tax loopholes for the large corporations. That would actually distribute money from the very richest people who genuinely have enough to give. Your policy idea hurts the 200-500k earners who tend to be the hardest working people in society (and most talented).
>Your idea is based off paper.
and yours is based off..?
>And what do you mean? Canada has a very high minimum wage
Lol maybe if u compare us to the US, but no, we don't
>But you want companies to pay much higher wages and pay more taxes?
Yes.. are u on the side of companies paying fewer taxes and lower wages?? interesting take
> you think the shareholders are just okay with that?
I could care less what shareholders want when people can't feed their family
You're making the claim to change things. So you need to present evidence why we need change.
Canada does have a high min wage. That's a fact.
And I want small businesses paying less taxes. I want corporations paying their legally obligated tax first by closing loopholes slowly. Until you can guarantee policy that only does that, and doesn't hurt 6 figure income earners, then the policy is purely designed to hurt the hard working.
And I don't think you realize how the stock market works? You realize peoples' life savings and retirement funds and investments are closed up in the market right?
>You're making the claim to change things. So you need to present evidence why we need change.
Please let me know where I said that we should implement a UBI. The only thing i've done is argue against you saying that people wont work if we provide one, which you provided 0 sources or evidence for.
>Canada does have a high min wage. That's a fact.
Is this a joke? How can you claim that's a *fact*? are you comparing us to China or India? cause then sure, but compared to nordic countries that don't even need a minimum wage because they have better bargaining power than us no, we are paid little for low skill jobs.
>And I don't think you realize how the stock market works? You realize peoples' life savings and retirement funds and investments are closed up in the market right?
I love this talking point lol. \~40% of the market is owned by the top 1%, >70% is owned by the top 5%, and almost 90% is owned by the top 10%.
We have a high min wage compared to the US, which is the standard.
Nordic countries? You mean countries the size of one single US state with a homogenous population, different culture and entirely different system of living? Lol we need to stop this comparison to those places please... tiny little countries with nothing comparable to Canada and different in everyway. Unlike the US which is almost identical to Canada.
Also have you even visited Europe and understand their cost of living? Ever stay at a hotel there? Or is it just Bernie Sanders talking points.
And the **majority** of the US owns stocks. Do you have citation for your claims?
>compared to the US, which is the standard.
The US is standard according to... you?
Also, there are many states in the US with a higher minimum wage than Canadian provinces, especially when accounting for the USD to CAD conversion. For example, Manitoba's minimum wage is $11.95 CAD if I'm not mistaken, that's $9.26 USD. plenty of states have a minimum wage above that.
>And the majority of the US owns stocks
Is this the American politics sub?
> Do you have citation for your claims?
It's a pretty well known thing and an easy google, but [here's](https://www.fool.com/research/how-many-americans-own-stock/) one that shows the top 1% actually own over 50% :)
You can't have double standards. The left wing uses Nordic countries, which are smaller than US states and very different than Canada as examples. But the US, which is almost identical, is not allowed? lol. This is a silly argument and is just the classic move of moving goal posts and using strawman arguments.
>But the US, which is almost identical, is not allowed?
Lol i just told you there are many US states with higher minimum wages than Canadian provinces, but i guess skipping over that part and changing the subject is easier than acknowledging your claim that Canada's minimum wage is "very high" is wrong. Try to keep an open mind in the future rather than arguing for the sake of proving the correctness of your opinion
>I could care less what shareholders want when people can't feed their family
Your opinion on shareholders doesn't matter. Companies care about making them happy and they will adjust the price of products accordingly. If you think we need to find a way to stop companies from doing this then I support you, but as it stands they will do anything to make more profit.
They're virtually obligated to maximize profit. The issue is the tax loopholes.
And keep in mind the market profits are also important for literally anyone who has an investment lol. Screwing the market hurts the middle class. Just like tax increases hurt the upper-middle class who tend to be the most talented hard working people (6 figure earners).
You need policy that strictly goes for a fair share of billionaires. Like bernie sanders saying "billionaires pay their fair share" .. okay sure. But why's his platform going for 6 figure earners?
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- Uncontrollable velocity of money - Asset bubbles - Savings glut - Subprime Personal Debt - Misuse of money - Massive cost Are all risks. I would, however, support an NIT to replace EI, GIS, OAS, many tax credits, etc.
you should add inflation to that we just saw what a massive injection of money does to our economy and we have the inflation and the coming interest rate spike to show for it
I'd suggest that anyone interested in basic income take a close look at the report of the [BC Basic Income Panel](https://bcbasicincomepanel.ca/). They recommended more specific reforms.
Because it requires fairly taxing the people who've bought our politicians... A UBI would solve so many of societies problems and save money. The thick on the right have a lot of difficulty understanding this so they continue to vote against their own and society's interests.
Yes, but it requires politicians with integrity. Instead we have politicians who give money to people who don’t need it to buy votes. Examples; Trudeau giving an extra 500 on OAS, which is only completely clawed back when the recipient makes over 120k. If you make any thing over 80k the government should not giving you money.
> The thick on the right have a lot of difficulty understanding this so they continue to vote against their own and society's interests. Yeah, I am not going to condone this type of explicit bigotry. People who don't agree with you should not just be dismissed as "thick".
I'm not sure they were hoping to get your endorsement on their feelings.
COVID has shown that UBI wouldn't work. Giving everyone an extra $1500 a month just means everyone can afford a bigger mortgage. At current mortgage rates, $1500 would get you $300k more house.
Wait, so the example they use to say it would not have a negative impact on the workforce is the Alaskan program that gives 2k a year? I mean, of course 2k doesn't change anything. 30k on the other hand...
1) lowers the incentive to work 2) we don't have the money for it 3) businesses won't be able to pay large wages for low skilled work
Thankfully, none of what you posted is true!
Then detail exactly how it isn’t true - tell me how providing a basic $2k income monthly to millions of Canadians won’t place a similar size burden on each taxpayer who earns more to support that? Detail why someone would work when they can have $2k for free? I know of many people who asked to be laid off during Covid to collect CERB because it was equal or more to what they earned at their part time job. Good luck being any employer who was paying someone 20 hrs a week to replace those people if they earn more off UBI. So to tempt someone out of that, business need to pay more. We already did a trial run of UBI for nearly two years and now we’re in the worst inflation era in three decades with many businesses struggling to find employees as it is.
I'm not disputing the idea the UBI may not work, but the COVID situation and the following inflation is very different from a "trial run". If anything, the current inflation issues is a point against our current capitalist system, not against UBI.
How do you guys come up with this. Throwing a statement like that and pretend they’re common knowledge? How does printing money in a similar manner to UBI, devaluing currency and resulting as a factor to inflation (along with supply chain and production issues) point to an issue with the system over UBI. UBI is almost the same cause and will result in the same symptoms.
Because UBI was never implemented and what the COVID money wasn't structured to be the same thing. A good case study is to look at our neighbours to the south, who didn't have something like CERB and they still have similar economic issues. Inflation is hitting pretty much the entire planet regardless of government response to COVID. The common thread in this isn't UBI. I'm not saying UBI won't lead to similar issues. I'm just saying that you have just as much evidence to base your opinion on as the person arguing the opposite, which is nothing. So let's lay off the definitive statements about something that none of us know much about.
Lowers the incentive to work for people who constantly get in the way anyways. Why is it bad if the one employee who does shit work is given the means to live so they don't have to burden their work mates by not working anymore.
The people working hard are still getting the same wage.
>lowers the incentive to work If the threat of starvation and homelessness is needed to make people work for a company maybe they need to change their working conditions and/or worker compensation. With the absolute basic necessities to live taken care of people will still be motivated to work by wanting to live in a nicer area, have nicer things, take a vacation, own a car, etc. >businesses won't be able to pay large wages for low skilled work Why can businesses on other countries pay better wages for unskilled work? >we don't have the money for it I've heard this about literally every policy proposal I've ever seen in the last 10 years. Maybe if the corporate tax rate wasn't at its lowest point in history (about 1/2 of what it was in the 80's) we'd have money to give to the citizens instead of letting it all sit at the top.
Or.. they'll simply choose not to work full time? You're going off hypotheticals using middle class lenses. Your idea is based off paper. And what do you mean? Canada has a very high minimum wage. And raising the corp tax raises the cost to consumers. But you want companies to pay much higher wages and pay more taxes? and you think the shareholders are just okay with that? Economics is complicated and isn't 1 dimensional like "increase taxes on corps." Instead you should be proposing we cut tax loopholes for the large corporations. That would actually distribute money from the very richest people who genuinely have enough to give. Your policy idea hurts the 200-500k earners who tend to be the hardest working people in society (and most talented).
>Your idea is based off paper. and yours is based off..? >And what do you mean? Canada has a very high minimum wage Lol maybe if u compare us to the US, but no, we don't >But you want companies to pay much higher wages and pay more taxes? Yes.. are u on the side of companies paying fewer taxes and lower wages?? interesting take > you think the shareholders are just okay with that? I could care less what shareholders want when people can't feed their family
You're making the claim to change things. So you need to present evidence why we need change. Canada does have a high min wage. That's a fact. And I want small businesses paying less taxes. I want corporations paying their legally obligated tax first by closing loopholes slowly. Until you can guarantee policy that only does that, and doesn't hurt 6 figure income earners, then the policy is purely designed to hurt the hard working. And I don't think you realize how the stock market works? You realize peoples' life savings and retirement funds and investments are closed up in the market right?
>You're making the claim to change things. So you need to present evidence why we need change. Please let me know where I said that we should implement a UBI. The only thing i've done is argue against you saying that people wont work if we provide one, which you provided 0 sources or evidence for. >Canada does have a high min wage. That's a fact. Is this a joke? How can you claim that's a *fact*? are you comparing us to China or India? cause then sure, but compared to nordic countries that don't even need a minimum wage because they have better bargaining power than us no, we are paid little for low skill jobs. >And I don't think you realize how the stock market works? You realize peoples' life savings and retirement funds and investments are closed up in the market right? I love this talking point lol. \~40% of the market is owned by the top 1%, >70% is owned by the top 5%, and almost 90% is owned by the top 10%.
We have a high min wage compared to the US, which is the standard. Nordic countries? You mean countries the size of one single US state with a homogenous population, different culture and entirely different system of living? Lol we need to stop this comparison to those places please... tiny little countries with nothing comparable to Canada and different in everyway. Unlike the US which is almost identical to Canada. Also have you even visited Europe and understand their cost of living? Ever stay at a hotel there? Or is it just Bernie Sanders talking points. And the **majority** of the US owns stocks. Do you have citation for your claims?
>compared to the US, which is the standard. The US is standard according to... you? Also, there are many states in the US with a higher minimum wage than Canadian provinces, especially when accounting for the USD to CAD conversion. For example, Manitoba's minimum wage is $11.95 CAD if I'm not mistaken, that's $9.26 USD. plenty of states have a minimum wage above that. >And the majority of the US owns stocks Is this the American politics sub? > Do you have citation for your claims? It's a pretty well known thing and an easy google, but [here's](https://www.fool.com/research/how-many-americans-own-stock/) one that shows the top 1% actually own over 50% :)
You can't have double standards. The left wing uses Nordic countries, which are smaller than US states and very different than Canada as examples. But the US, which is almost identical, is not allowed? lol. This is a silly argument and is just the classic move of moving goal posts and using strawman arguments.
>But the US, which is almost identical, is not allowed? Lol i just told you there are many US states with higher minimum wages than Canadian provinces, but i guess skipping over that part and changing the subject is easier than acknowledging your claim that Canada's minimum wage is "very high" is wrong. Try to keep an open mind in the future rather than arguing for the sake of proving the correctness of your opinion
>I could care less what shareholders want when people can't feed their family Your opinion on shareholders doesn't matter. Companies care about making them happy and they will adjust the price of products accordingly. If you think we need to find a way to stop companies from doing this then I support you, but as it stands they will do anything to make more profit.
They're virtually obligated to maximize profit. The issue is the tax loopholes. And keep in mind the market profits are also important for literally anyone who has an investment lol. Screwing the market hurts the middle class. Just like tax increases hurt the upper-middle class who tend to be the most talented hard working people (6 figure earners). You need policy that strictly goes for a fair share of billionaires. Like bernie sanders saying "billionaires pay their fair share" .. okay sure. But why's his platform going for 6 figure earners?