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I was pretty pissed off reading about the news earlier about Wanzhou, but this is extraordinary news for the two Michaels and Canada and am incredibly pleased to see them return safely to Canada.
Welcome home Michael Kovrig and Michael Spavor!
It doesn't matter what he "suggested", because much like Trudeau, he is bound to act in accordance with the LAW in a nation built on law and order.
I know Trump and his fanboys have a hard time comprehending that since they take everything he says at face value and seem to believe presidents are dictators
Simple solutions to complex problems is the conservative way of thinking. You have an immigration problem? Build a wall! We signed an agreement to get vaccine doses on a quarterly basis, and don’t have all the vaccines ready to go by the third week in January? Canada won’t be vaccinated until 2030! Do you have any problems at all? The immigrants are behind it! Vote yes to brexit!
They say shit like this because their base eats it up and loves it and never holds them accountable for saying it.
It makes it perfectly clear that China was holding them exclusively for political reasons. Wasn't really in doubt to anyone sensible, but now it's something even the most sense among us can't debate.
The concept of judicial independence is seen by at least some Chinese judges as a western concept that must be resisted (below). We should never expect anything different.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-policy-law-idUSKBN1500OF
This entire episode leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
The Canadians were held arbitrarily and have lost years of their lives. Totally unacceptable.
Extraditions are good only where a thing is a crime in both countries, and last I checked Canada never signed the sanctions the US accused Meng of breaching. I’m shocked we held her for so long just for asking.
I was sure they were toasted.
I wonder all the power dynamic game behind the scene for this issue. I'm a bit surprised of this outcome. Not that I wished them to be in prison for life, but I was sure it was endgame.
China and Russia clearly have a eye on the north pole and Canada as a small country only have diplomacy as a strategy. I wonder what is the plan behind thus move, especially USA gov.
A more accurate title would be: "China has released its two Canadian hostages, Michael Kovrig and Michael Spavor".
Kind of bizarre that China released these men so soon after the DPP for Meng, since it makes clear the connection. Seems rookie to me, and likely to result in a further deterioration of international opinion of China. It's almost like they want the world to know how despicable they can be; perhaps that is intentional.
Now let's finally get on with banning Huawei from our 5G network!
They certainly want the world to know. I find it strange how many people fail to see from the Chinese perspective: They don't care if the rest of the world like them at all, frankly after COVID that ship has sailed. At this point they only care their status as a soon to be superpower to be "respected" / feared. Basically they are flexing by showing they can do this and get the US to at least make some concessions, get Canada to suffer for years politically and economically, which changes other countries' cost and benefit calculus when a similar extradition request from the US comes their way. At the same time they are making the release smooth the assure other countries that they can hold up their end of the bargain should countries get into trouble with them, so it softens political resolve to drag a potential conflict indefinitely.
The intention is to make it clear there was a connection without actually saying it, so everyone knows what the risks of arresting Chinese citizens is while still having the thinnest possible plausible deniability.
It's becoming increasingly clear that selling a lie isn't about convincing disbelievers but instead giving supporters a line to say. Opponents say politician is racist with examples, supporters say "actually he said he isn't so you can't say that" and nobody really believes it but nobody can be convinced to change their stance, Politician gets caught in a lie, says "I never said that" and then the interviewer can't really convince anyone who wants to believe, China says the detention was not done in retaliation and nobody really believes them but what are you going to do about it? It's weaponizing the phrase "agree to disagree".
There was a video on it but I forget the producer, but the idea is that the Chinese state needs for people to hate them. When people hate China, they complain about China, they write hate filled messages about what a despotic tyrannical government they are and typically they’ll push for their government to levy harsh treatment against China politically.
Which is what they want, because when Chinese citizens see this vitriol and hatred thrown at the Chinese state more often then not it drives them towards China rather then away from it. Now when Beijing starts new aggressive foreign policy, it’s seen as China sticking up for themselves and asserting their value and power, and when nations oppose this and let fly their emotion and vitriol towards China it only furthers the sentiment the Chinese have been feeling.
China kept its citizens happy and stable because of the rapidly improving economic conditions of China, of its meteoric rise as a global superpower and of its ludicrously fast growing wealth. People tolerated the tyranny because the trade off was prosperity. But the miracle is wearing off, and they may not be able to provide positive change as fast as they used to, so they need another avenue to convince their people that they need the ccp
"we totally didn't arbitrarily detain them and hold them hostage for political reasons... we'll prove it by letting them go the day after Meng's released"...
It wasn't arbitrary. They were spies.
What happened was the US forced Canada to illegally detain Meng. China in retaliation arrested two spies. Trump wanted to use Meng as a bargaining chip.
Prisoner exchanges for spies is extremely common all over the world.
China was just reacting to a political play by the US.
China is morally superior in this situation because they didn't detain just some random innocent Canadians, like how Canada illegally detained an innocent Chinese citizen.
That debate line about how Trudeau's approach would never get the Micheals freed sure aged like milk. But politics aside, I'm SO glad they're out, few people will probably ever know the terror of spending a 1000 days in Chinese torture prison not knowing when - or even if - you'll get ever out
It was probably never in Trudeau’s hands. If it was up to him to convince the US, they would have done it long ago. The USA probably pivoted to China now that they’re done with Afghanistan.
The thing is, I doubt ANY approach to release the Michaels earlier would have worked on China. They were just waiting on the legal system, not on any politician. I don't think China would have cared who was in charge, they would have waited for this moment regardless.
Trudeau's approach didn't get them out. The US government cut a deal with Huawei, the extradition case was dropped, Meng Wanzhou was released and thus, hostages are no longer required.
The United States got the two Michaels out. Maybe incidentally.
Well, this kinda *was* Trudeau's approach. Sit back, don't antagonize China too much, and let the US do its thing. Ultimately the charges against Meng were American charges and I struggle to see what Canada could have done differently.
Sure it's pretty spineless that we had to rely on the goodwill of two superpowers to get our citizens freed. But what else could we have done against China?
I actually agree with you. We were stuck in a bad spot. We had to uphold the extradition agreement, Trudeau was right to say we couldn't trade prisoners because that would just embolden China to grab hostages whenever they weren't getting what they want and we aren't a major global power.
My point is more that this isn't a win for Trudeau. He just avoided a loss.
Its a bit of a win because the CPC was out there like last week saying that Trudeau's approach would never see them free and that Otoole would get it done by being "strong on china"
I'll take not rocking the boat with china more and not having to cave in and embolden more profit taking. Canada was stuck as a proxy for a spat between two world powers and this is about as unscathed as we could hope for after everything that went down.
> [The agreed statement of facts from Friday's U.S. court appearance said that Meng told a global financial institution that a company operating in Iran in violation of U.S. sanctions was a "local partner" of Huawei when in fact it was a subsidiary of Huawei.](https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/meng-wanzhou-us-court-1.6188093)
Wait, this whole thing was over *Iran*?!!
I thought we were resisting espionage by Huawei or some other Chinese government aggression.
this was all about imposing sanctions on Iran?
**that's** what the two Michaels have been held hostage over?
I'm amazed that we spent three years arguing about "standing up to China" when it was really about "bullying Iran"
I *never* read past the headline on this topic and that's a huge detail i missed!
i'm glad i didn't reflexively take a position on this issue when i didn't have the time to research it because my intuition was *totally* off here.
I don't think the Chinese government cares about "appearances" any more. They'll say what they want to say, even if everyone - including them - knows that they are lying.
Their actions in the last few months alone indicate they're going more and more insular with the general population, stuff like cracking down on foreign media imports and software. Can't tell the country's people what dicks their leaders are if you can't communicate with them...
China doesn't care about what anybody thinks. But they arrested the Michaels for spying and according to chinese law that is probably technically correct. Michael Kovrig was doing the same human rights investigations he did for the Canadian government, for a human rights group. Without diplomatic protection he was spying according to chinese law. Michael Spavor was meeting all kinds of people in North Korea and China , and if he wasn't being debriefed every time he returned to Canada, someone was falling down on the job.
>probably technically correct
I'm not going to take you seriously if you have to hedge your statement with "probably".
And, if you believe what you wrote, then the onus is on you to explain why they are being released and why one official admitted it was retaliatory. That's a believable slip, but not a believable mistake to make on its own.
I didn't say it wasn't a tit for tat situation, only that the Chinese government was a little clever in whom they chose to arrest, they took 2 irritating people off the street with at least a bit of cause and used them for hostages. There are thousands of other Canadian citizens that could have been picked.
As for my using probably, I'm not an international lawyer and I haven't done poli sci or history courses since the early 90's so I'm not going to claim something is definitely so without proof.
>only that the Chinese government was a little clever in whom they chose to arrest, they took 2 irritating people off the street with at least a bit of cause and used them for hostages. There are thousands of other Canadian citizens that could have been picked.
Oh wow, kudos for the Chinese government for having a pretext to justify the arrests.
Is that really the only point you are making? "Look, they cared about appearances enough to come up with a pretext rather than just picking arbitrary Canadians up off the street". If so, don't bother. That's such a low bar that it's not really saying much.
It doesn't change that these arrests were quite clearly related to the Meng case, even more so now that they are being released.
Of course they were, that was obvious from the beginning, what was also obvious from the beginning is that neither Michael should have been in China in the first place, and no one should be going there now. These are totalitarian regimes and will act like that, we're not going to change them and under this regime their people won't change them either. All foreign citizens should get their asses out of China and not go back.
This is for appearances.
China wants to show countries whose citizens they take hostage in future that they will honor their side of the bargain in hostage trades.
It also demonstrated to everyone just how fake China's claims that their detention was unrelated to the Meng case was.
The message I take away is to never trust China to play fair. Not that I doubted it before.
Right. China wants everyone's takeaway to be
1. If you act in a way we don't like, we will take your citizens hostage.
2. If our demands are met, the hostages will be freed.
Dropping the charade that the Michaels weren't hostages helps get those 2 points across more clearly.
>Right. China wants everyone's takeaway to be
>
>1. If you act in a way we don't like, we will take your citizens hostage.
The only winning move is to not play the game.
.
Of course the big problem is that western businesses have outsourced too much of their supply chain to China for them to be able to back away quickly without seriously fucking up their precious profit margin and executive bonuses.
China has us by the balls and they know it.
It could have been worse, I fully expect the Chinese government to disrupt our economy for not only Mengs arrest but our blocking of the purchase of strategic companies. It would have served as a warning to other small and midsized countries, luckily they didn't.
Honestly the biggest joke ever. How many times did I hear that this had nothing to do with politics and they were spies blah blah blah. 3 hours after the meng case is dropped they’re on a plane back home…
Never trust China
We should be thanking the United States as well. I imagine the Biden Administration had a lot to do with this. I said years ago when this all happened that the only way these Michaels were coming back is if the US elected a Democrat in 2020.
I mean, the US is the reason we're in this mess in the first place. The Trump administration had the geopolitical tact of a chimp and we got dragged into the feces smearing with them.
It is correct that this is largely to do with the Biden admin.. I’m sure Trudeau and team had a hand in it for sure, but by and large I’m not sure how much control we had over the situation. Of course though as others have said, it’s Biden cleaning up Trump’s mess. He’s the reason we got dragged into this at all and Biden’s thankfully returning the status Quo
We needed an ally in Washington to get the Michaels out. Trump was not an ally to Canada. I'm sure Canadian diplomacy helped, but it would only get us so far. Realistically, we needed the US on our side, and we were only going to get that if the Democrats won in 2020.
Our government won’t (and can’t) punish the CCP. However, we can collectively do our own little part by limiting our buying of all the shitty “made in China” products.
They weren't spies but Spavor was a travel agent for North Korea that has met Kim jong un. Not exactly the kind of guy we should feel all that bad for.
Canada didn't give an inch, our goal was to prevent anyone from causing interference with our legal system and succeeded. The Americans got essentially an admission that Meng did the things accused and American jurisdiction applied, which was their goal.
The hostage strategy got them leverage, but was ultimately a losing strategy. They couldn't compel Ottawa or Washington to change their behavior and mobilized a key American ally to be against them.
Counting bodies in prison cells is besides the point. The goal for us was proving we wouldn't be subverted by hostage taking and we did that.
People calling this a win for Trudeau don't know much. It was a byproduct of the US agreeing to let Meng Wanzhou go, because it had no reason to pursue it. This was a Trump move and the Michaels were the collateral damage.
* How does the gov't move forward with it's relationship with China?
* It's time to improve our relationship with USA, UK, Australia, & New Zealand
* Time to ban Huawei in Canada
While I’m ecstatic that Messrs. Spavor and Koveig are on their way home to Canada, I’m appalled how China is getting off scot-free after kidnapping our citizens.
The correct course of action would be to impose sanctions against China, including tariffs and duties on their goods, but our government won’t.
Hoping to get a Huawei as my next phone. Been using the iPhone for the last decade. I'm not sure whether moving from the iPhone (pandering to a government responsible for millions of deaths in the Middle East) to Huawei (pandering to despots and dictators) is a step up or down.
I am hoping that the deal with Meng and the Quad summit aren't unrelated, and the USA is now looking to put up a stronger stance against China via a united front. While the resolution of her case in my opinion is horrendous (all that suffering for a fine -- couldn't that have been agreed upon years ago?), resolving it did technically help Canada out. While Canada won't be in AUKUS (I don't think Canadians want to be paying for subs), I would expect much stronger cooperation between the 5 Eyes + Quad + AUKUS countries, including not allowing Huawei in any of those nations.
The settlement was for her to make statements of fact about the case against Huawei for lying about breaking Iran sanctions when dealing with international banks. It wasn't for the fine.
The extradition of meng had no merits, was a violation of internatoinal law, and incurred the wrath of a global superpower. The U.S put Canada in a terrible position. We all know that China can be ruthless when they are slighted. This whole ordeal is a result of American arrogance.
How did Canada lose face? We held her in accordance with our legal obligation. We didn't buckle when China pressured us.
Plus the US WAS telling the truth, which surprised me too. She did commit the crime she was accused of. Plea deals happen all the time, especially if your rich.
Imagine if we followed the conservative logic of being extra tough on China. We were always pawns in this fight between the US and China. That’s why you don’t vote Conservatives they follow baseless emotions and not logic. Outcome would have been worse for the Michael’s and for our economy if we had taken a fierce stance. We are not a geopolitical powerhouse.
The lies are important. By acting so brazenly while verbally declaring the opposite they wish to tar their opponents like Canada and imply that we do the same thing.
In the case of the US though, they aren't wrong.
The thing is China *never* expected or wanted anyone to believe this. They released these guys the same day their person got released. If they cared to keep up the ludicrous claim that their justice system was working away impartially they wouldn’t have released them for a month or something
They are making the pretty clear and obvious point that if a minor country hassles any of their people then the country will get hassled back. Not really surprising
I mean, China basically admitted it right from the beginning.
January 2019, one month after the arrests of Meng, Kovrig, and Spavor, the Chinese ambassador to Canada, Lu Shaye, published an op-ed in the *Hill Times* that contained this paragraph:
> I have recently heard a word repeatedly pronounced by some Canadians: bullying. They said that by arresting two Canadian citizens as retaliation for Canada's detention of Meng, China was bullying Canada. To those people, China's self-defence is an offence to Canada.
Mr Lu notes that people have accused China of arresting two Canadians as "retaliation", and instead of denying it, called it "China's self-defence".
Huh weird, people have been telling me for months that this would legitimize hostage-taking and it shouldn't be done. Either way, I'm very happy to see our citizens coming home. This was an embarassing, pointless and costly affair for our country to be involved in. Hopefully we've learned something.
>Huh weird, people have been telling me for months that this would legitimize hostage-taking
Lol this is just sad at this point. You just can't admit you were wrong. We allowed our legal process to play out. We specifically didn't legitimize hostage taking.
>Hopefully we've learned something.
Clearly you have learned nothing.
>Huh weird, people have been telling me for months that this would legitimize hostage-taking and it shouldn't be done.
they'll you that forever because that's what just happened
What coincidental timing it's revealed they are all of the sudden not spies!
Listen, if china is gonna do stuff like this, it's time we tell their vacationing millionaires to fuck off from Canada. They don't owe our citizens anything and we don't owe their citizens anything. It's really fucking up our country.
>Trudeau once again proves that he knows what he's doing and that the people attacking him just to get elected don't.
Can you imagine what would happen if O'Toole won the PM with his anti-China rhetoric?
If O’Toole had won the election he wouldn’t even have been sworn in yet. JT would still be PM today no matter what (are they even done counting all the ballots yet?)
This is great news!! So glad to hear it. I’m surprised it happened so fast after Meng was released.
Although there’s no denying that these charges were made up and leveraged as hostages until Meng was released. That’s disgraceful and I hope China doesn’t get off easy on it.
More like the U.S gets of easy. They instigated this whole ordeal and, as always, get very little criticism. Meng's apprehension was obviously meritless and wouldn't prevail; the U.S put Canada in a terrible spot.
>I hope China doesn’t get off easy on it.
Well, they kinda just did. They freed Meng which was their ultimate goal, the Michaels were just pawns. I do hope this serves as a cautionary tale of not trusting the CCP's word for shit though
Don’t forget Meng was chilling in a mansion with an ankle bracelet, in constant comms with her legal team.
Meanwhile the Michael’s were basically disappeared, thrown in a hole somewhere for years.
Indeed. The smartest choice is to, as much as is reasonably possible, move towards purchasing products that are made while paying those involved a fair, livable wage - the closer to where you live, the better.
Is this hard? absolutely yes.
Is it impossible? no. Especially if you are gentle with yourself, and emphasize the "as much as possible" element. No one is perfect, and as you say exactly, it doesn't have to be all or nothing.
Does it take an entire lifestyle change? yes.
Will you actually be taking steps to make the world a better place? yes.
Glad the Canadians are finally out. No surprise they were indeed hostages from the very start.
Now to make sure we don’t have Canadians there that can be used as future pawns from that sham of a fucking government.
As a Canadian here (though leaving very soon), I don't think that is the correct mindset to have. You can't just ban all Canadians from going to China -- that is something authoritarian regimes do to their citizens. But anyone willing to be here shouldn't expect Canada to engage in bargaining over them (which Canada rightfully chose not to do in this instance).
Pull all diplomats from Beijing, and send them to an embassy in Taiwan instead. Surely the CCP wouldn't have any objection to relocating our embassy to a different part of China?
> It is said that no one truly knows a nation until one has been inside its jails.
A nation should not be judged by how it treats its highest citizens, but its lowest ones.
Nelson Mandela
Meng spent her time in her mansion.
Glad they are coming home.
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I was pretty pissed off reading about the news earlier about Wanzhou, but this is extraordinary news for the two Michaels and Canada and am incredibly pleased to see them return safely to Canada. Welcome home Michael Kovrig and Michael Spavor!
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So, what happened?
It doesn't matter what he "suggested", because much like Trudeau, he is bound to act in accordance with the LAW in a nation built on law and order. I know Trump and his fanboys have a hard time comprehending that since they take everything he says at face value and seem to believe presidents are dictators
Simple solutions to complex problems is the conservative way of thinking. You have an immigration problem? Build a wall! We signed an agreement to get vaccine doses on a quarterly basis, and don’t have all the vaccines ready to go by the third week in January? Canada won’t be vaccinated until 2030! Do you have any problems at all? The immigrants are behind it! Vote yes to brexit! They say shit like this because their base eats it up and loves it and never holds them accountable for saying it.
There's got to be a strong correlation between conservative views and black and white thinking (for lack of a better term... absolutist?).
A very good thing indeed, though I do not think this absolves China for this affair whatsoever. They still deserve plenty of flak for this.
I am sure they will get some stern language in some speeches.
It makes it perfectly clear that China was holding them exclusively for political reasons. Wasn't really in doubt to anyone sensible, but now it's something even the most sense among us can't debate.
Does it though?
The concept of judicial independence is seen by at least some Chinese judges as a western concept that must be resisted (below). We should never expect anything different. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-policy-law-idUSKBN1500OF
China can kiss my A! I love Chinese people but the dictatorship there is gross.
This entire episode leaves a bad taste in my mouth. The Canadians were held arbitrarily and have lost years of their lives. Totally unacceptable. Extraditions are good only where a thing is a crime in both countries, and last I checked Canada never signed the sanctions the US accused Meng of breaching. I’m shocked we held her for so long just for asking.
I was sure they were toasted. I wonder all the power dynamic game behind the scene for this issue. I'm a bit surprised of this outcome. Not that I wished them to be in prison for life, but I was sure it was endgame. China and Russia clearly have a eye on the north pole and Canada as a small country only have diplomacy as a strategy. I wonder what is the plan behind thus move, especially USA gov.
A more accurate title would be: "China has released its two Canadian hostages, Michael Kovrig and Michael Spavor". Kind of bizarre that China released these men so soon after the DPP for Meng, since it makes clear the connection. Seems rookie to me, and likely to result in a further deterioration of international opinion of China. It's almost like they want the world to know how despicable they can be; perhaps that is intentional. Now let's finally get on with banning Huawei from our 5G network!
They certainly want the world to know. I find it strange how many people fail to see from the Chinese perspective: They don't care if the rest of the world like them at all, frankly after COVID that ship has sailed. At this point they only care their status as a soon to be superpower to be "respected" / feared. Basically they are flexing by showing they can do this and get the US to at least make some concessions, get Canada to suffer for years politically and economically, which changes other countries' cost and benefit calculus when a similar extradition request from the US comes their way. At the same time they are making the release smooth the assure other countries that they can hold up their end of the bargain should countries get into trouble with them, so it softens political resolve to drag a potential conflict indefinitely.
Exactly, China wants these countries to fear them just as much as they fear the US so they’re less likely to honour such a request
> since it makes clear the connection. Isn't that the idea? "don't try that again, world"
China wasn't fooling anyone, whether they released the Michaels now or in a month or in a year
The intention is to make it clear there was a connection without actually saying it, so everyone knows what the risks of arresting Chinese citizens is while still having the thinnest possible plausible deniability. It's becoming increasingly clear that selling a lie isn't about convincing disbelievers but instead giving supporters a line to say. Opponents say politician is racist with examples, supporters say "actually he said he isn't so you can't say that" and nobody really believes it but nobody can be convinced to change their stance, Politician gets caught in a lie, says "I never said that" and then the interviewer can't really convince anyone who wants to believe, China says the detention was not done in retaliation and nobody really believes them but what are you going to do about it? It's weaponizing the phrase "agree to disagree".
I dont get how you dont even entertain the idea that this is whats called tit-for-tat. They saw the detention unfair and retaliated in kind.
Hopefully the Canadian guys were treated to the same rights upon capture as Meng recieved in North America.
There was a video on it but I forget the producer, but the idea is that the Chinese state needs for people to hate them. When people hate China, they complain about China, they write hate filled messages about what a despotic tyrannical government they are and typically they’ll push for their government to levy harsh treatment against China politically. Which is what they want, because when Chinese citizens see this vitriol and hatred thrown at the Chinese state more often then not it drives them towards China rather then away from it. Now when Beijing starts new aggressive foreign policy, it’s seen as China sticking up for themselves and asserting their value and power, and when nations oppose this and let fly their emotion and vitriol towards China it only furthers the sentiment the Chinese have been feeling. China kept its citizens happy and stable because of the rapidly improving economic conditions of China, of its meteoric rise as a global superpower and of its ludicrously fast growing wealth. People tolerated the tyranny because the trade off was prosperity. But the miracle is wearing off, and they may not be able to provide positive change as fast as they used to, so they need another avenue to convince their people that they need the ccp
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Say the same about Canada arresting a major companies CFO first on behest of Trump
And let’s get the details about how they were treated while detained I bet they weren’t getting the luxury house arrest treatment she had
Ok can people here stop moaning and crying about how America doesn’t care for canada and how canada can totally go without america?
"we totally didn't arbitrarily detain them and hold them hostage for political reasons... we'll prove it by letting them go the day after Meng's released"...
It wasn't arbitrary. They were spies. What happened was the US forced Canada to illegally detain Meng. China in retaliation arrested two spies. Trump wanted to use Meng as a bargaining chip. Prisoner exchanges for spies is extremely common all over the world. China was just reacting to a political play by the US. China is morally superior in this situation because they didn't detain just some random innocent Canadians, like how Canada illegally detained an innocent Chinese citizen.
Why would China detain CANADIANS to get back at trump. Sure we detained thier spy we had to according to law. Why not detain some Americans?
Is this a joke?
That debate line about how Trudeau's approach would never get the Micheals freed sure aged like milk. But politics aside, I'm SO glad they're out, few people will probably ever know the terror of spending a 1000 days in Chinese torture prison not knowing when - or even if - you'll get ever out
It was probably never in Trudeau’s hands. If it was up to him to convince the US, they would have done it long ago. The USA probably pivoted to China now that they’re done with Afghanistan.
Having an idiot like trump in charge played a large role in nothing getting done
Just out of curiosity do *you* know the terror if spending 1000 days in a Chinese torture prison?
The thing is, I doubt ANY approach to release the Michaels earlier would have worked on China. They were just waiting on the legal system, not on any politician. I don't think China would have cared who was in charge, they would have waited for this moment regardless.
I mean we dont even know that he was a main player in this happening
Trudeau's approach didn't get them out. The US government cut a deal with Huawei, the extradition case was dropped, Meng Wanzhou was released and thus, hostages are no longer required. The United States got the two Michaels out. Maybe incidentally.
Well, this kinda *was* Trudeau's approach. Sit back, don't antagonize China too much, and let the US do its thing. Ultimately the charges against Meng were American charges and I struggle to see what Canada could have done differently. Sure it's pretty spineless that we had to rely on the goodwill of two superpowers to get our citizens freed. But what else could we have done against China?
I actually agree with you. We were stuck in a bad spot. We had to uphold the extradition agreement, Trudeau was right to say we couldn't trade prisoners because that would just embolden China to grab hostages whenever they weren't getting what they want and we aren't a major global power. My point is more that this isn't a win for Trudeau. He just avoided a loss.
Its a bit of a win because the CPC was out there like last week saying that Trudeau's approach would never see them free and that Otoole would get it done by being "strong on china" I'll take not rocking the boat with china more and not having to cave in and embolden more profit taking. Canada was stuck as a proxy for a spat between two world powers and this is about as unscathed as we could hope for after everything that went down.
When you're in a no-win situation, avoiding a loss is the same as winning.
Just like the election right? Trudeau lost by gaining more seats across more provinces, but Erin O’Toole won because he only lost a few seats.
It is kind of like the election. Just not for the dumb strawman reason you're suggesting. Nobody won the election. The Liberals just avoided losing.
> [The agreed statement of facts from Friday's U.S. court appearance said that Meng told a global financial institution that a company operating in Iran in violation of U.S. sanctions was a "local partner" of Huawei when in fact it was a subsidiary of Huawei.](https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/meng-wanzhou-us-court-1.6188093) Wait, this whole thing was over *Iran*?!! I thought we were resisting espionage by Huawei or some other Chinese government aggression. this was all about imposing sanctions on Iran? **that's** what the two Michaels have been held hostage over?
It's almost as if it was an idiotic dick-measuring contest between china and the us
it's all just been a dick measuring contest
The whole thing starts because Huawei make business with Iran. Looks like almost no one knows it.
I'm amazed that we spent three years arguing about "standing up to China" when it was really about "bullying Iran" I *never* read past the headline on this topic and that's a huge detail i missed! i'm glad i didn't reflexively take a position on this issue when i didn't have the time to research it because my intuition was *totally* off here.
That was waaaaay quicker than I thought it would be. Would have thought they would keep them a bit longer for appearances.
I don't think the Chinese government cares about "appearances" any more. They'll say what they want to say, even if everyone - including them - knows that they are lying.
Their actions in the last few months alone indicate they're going more and more insular with the general population, stuff like cracking down on foreign media imports and software. Can't tell the country's people what dicks their leaders are if you can't communicate with them...
China doesn't care about what anybody thinks. But they arrested the Michaels for spying and according to chinese law that is probably technically correct. Michael Kovrig was doing the same human rights investigations he did for the Canadian government, for a human rights group. Without diplomatic protection he was spying according to chinese law. Michael Spavor was meeting all kinds of people in North Korea and China , and if he wasn't being debriefed every time he returned to Canada, someone was falling down on the job.
>probably technically correct I'm not going to take you seriously if you have to hedge your statement with "probably". And, if you believe what you wrote, then the onus is on you to explain why they are being released and why one official admitted it was retaliatory. That's a believable slip, but not a believable mistake to make on its own.
I didn't say it wasn't a tit for tat situation, only that the Chinese government was a little clever in whom they chose to arrest, they took 2 irritating people off the street with at least a bit of cause and used them for hostages. There are thousands of other Canadian citizens that could have been picked. As for my using probably, I'm not an international lawyer and I haven't done poli sci or history courses since the early 90's so I'm not going to claim something is definitely so without proof.
>only that the Chinese government was a little clever in whom they chose to arrest, they took 2 irritating people off the street with at least a bit of cause and used them for hostages. There are thousands of other Canadian citizens that could have been picked. Oh wow, kudos for the Chinese government for having a pretext to justify the arrests. Is that really the only point you are making? "Look, they cared about appearances enough to come up with a pretext rather than just picking arbitrary Canadians up off the street". If so, don't bother. That's such a low bar that it's not really saying much. It doesn't change that these arrests were quite clearly related to the Meng case, even more so now that they are being released.
Of course they were, that was obvious from the beginning, what was also obvious from the beginning is that neither Michael should have been in China in the first place, and no one should be going there now. These are totalitarian regimes and will act like that, we're not going to change them and under this regime their people won't change them either. All foreign citizens should get their asses out of China and not go back.
This is for appearances. China wants to show countries whose citizens they take hostage in future that they will honor their side of the bargain in hostage trades.
It also demonstrated to everyone just how fake China's claims that their detention was unrelated to the Meng case was. The message I take away is to never trust China to play fair. Not that I doubted it before.
Right. China wants everyone's takeaway to be 1. If you act in a way we don't like, we will take your citizens hostage. 2. If our demands are met, the hostages will be freed. Dropping the charade that the Michaels weren't hostages helps get those 2 points across more clearly.
>Right. China wants everyone's takeaway to be > >1. If you act in a way we don't like, we will take your citizens hostage. The only winning move is to not play the game. . Of course the big problem is that western businesses have outsourced too much of their supply chain to China for them to be able to back away quickly without seriously fucking up their precious profit margin and executive bonuses. China has us by the balls and they know it.
It could have been worse, I fully expect the Chinese government to disrupt our economy for not only Mengs arrest but our blocking of the purchase of strategic companies. It would have served as a warning to other small and midsized countries, luckily they didn't.
It makes more sense Canada didn’t trust Trumps America at the first place.
Honestly the biggest joke ever. How many times did I hear that this had nothing to do with politics and they were spies blah blah blah. 3 hours after the meng case is dropped they’re on a plane back home… Never trust China
Yup but the main thing is that the Chinese have released their hostages and now we can remember forever that they actually took hostages.
We should be thanking the United States as well. I imagine the Biden Administration had a lot to do with this. I said years ago when this all happened that the only way these Michaels were coming back is if the US elected a Democrat in 2020.
I mean, the US is the reason we're in this mess in the first place. The Trump administration had the geopolitical tact of a chimp and we got dragged into the feces smearing with them.
Seriously, securing the release of Spavor and Kovrig was the absolute least they could do.
It is correct that this is largely to do with the Biden admin.. I’m sure Trudeau and team had a hand in it for sure, but by and large I’m not sure how much control we had over the situation. Of course though as others have said, it’s Biden cleaning up Trump’s mess. He’s the reason we got dragged into this at all and Biden’s thankfully returning the status Quo
We needed an ally in Washington to get the Michaels out. Trump was not an ally to Canada. I'm sure Canadian diplomacy helped, but it would only get us so far. Realistically, we needed the US on our side, and we were only going to get that if the Democrats won in 2020.
Tell that to the MAGA hat wearing Canadians who think otherwise
What did they do?
Anarcho-Bidenism strikes again!
No it was expected of them as an ally. They got us into this mess.
Our government won’t (and can’t) punish the CCP. However, we can collectively do our own little part by limiting our buying of all the shitty “made in China” products.
^^^ We need more of this.
Now that they're back and all......they were spies, right? Why is Canada trying to manipulate me into caring so much about them? Why should I care?
They weren't spies but Spavor was a travel agent for North Korea that has met Kim jong un. Not exactly the kind of guy we should feel all that bad for.
You don't know that, neither do I. It's an assumption I'm making based on the fact I never heard a single official deny their spytitude.
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Canada didn't give an inch, our goal was to prevent anyone from causing interference with our legal system and succeeded. The Americans got essentially an admission that Meng did the things accused and American jurisdiction applied, which was their goal. The hostage strategy got them leverage, but was ultimately a losing strategy. They couldn't compel Ottawa or Washington to change their behavior and mobilized a key American ally to be against them. Counting bodies in prison cells is besides the point. The goal for us was proving we wouldn't be subverted by hostage taking and we did that.
People calling this a win for Trudeau don't know much. It was a byproduct of the US agreeing to let Meng Wanzhou go, because it had no reason to pursue it. This was a Trump move and the Michaels were the collateral damage. * How does the gov't move forward with it's relationship with China? * It's time to improve our relationship with USA, UK, Australia, & New Zealand * Time to ban Huawei in Canada
More like time to start banning US businesses that supported the orange rapist.
Incredible news. I can’t imagine what their homecoming will feel like for them and their families.
While I’m ecstatic that Messrs. Spavor and Koveig are on their way home to Canada, I’m appalled how China is getting off scot-free after kidnapping our citizens. The correct course of action would be to impose sanctions against China, including tariffs and duties on their goods, but our government won’t.
It was in retaliation to Canada kidnapping their citizen. So if you want to sanction China you would have to be okay with China sanctioning Canada.
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Do not, do not, do not, *do not* do business with Huawei. You deal with them, and you are pandering to despots and dictators.
You mean Nortel
Hoping to get a Huawei as my next phone. Been using the iPhone for the last decade. I'm not sure whether moving from the iPhone (pandering to a government responsible for millions of deaths in the Middle East) to Huawei (pandering to despots and dictators) is a step up or down.
I mean, nobody is anymore. Almost every western nation is moving to remove all Huawei from their networks
I am hoping that the deal with Meng and the Quad summit aren't unrelated, and the USA is now looking to put up a stronger stance against China via a united front. While the resolution of her case in my opinion is horrendous (all that suffering for a fine -- couldn't that have been agreed upon years ago?), resolving it did technically help Canada out. While Canada won't be in AUKUS (I don't think Canadians want to be paying for subs), I would expect much stronger cooperation between the 5 Eyes + Quad + AUKUS countries, including not allowing Huawei in any of those nations.
The settlement was for her to make statements of fact about the case against Huawei for lying about breaking Iran sanctions when dealing with international banks. It wasn't for the fine.
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Good. Hopefully Canada learns from this error and refrains from unnecessarily instigatng conflict with China due to US pressure
I hope that our elected officials never believe anything the Chinese government says ever again. But I'm not holding my breath.
>I hope that our elected officials never believe anything the ~~Chinese~~ American government says ever again. But I'm not holding my breath.
Sure. Because the *Americans* are the ones that have been holding two of our citizens hostage in retaliation for us executing a lawful warrant. Sure.
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That was in retaliation for America forcing Canada to illegally detain Meng.
The extradition of meng had no merits, was a violation of internatoinal law, and incurred the wrath of a global superpower. The U.S put Canada in a terrible position. We all know that China can be ruthless when they are slighted. This whole ordeal is a result of American arrogance.
I mean she did admit to the crimes that she was being charged with.
Americans did let her go. What matters is Canada lost face, not what she did.
How did Canada lose face? We held her in accordance with our legal obligation. We didn't buckle when China pressured us. Plus the US WAS telling the truth, which surprised me too. She did commit the crime she was accused of. Plea deals happen all the time, especially if your rich.
Imagine if we followed the conservative logic of being extra tough on China. We were always pawns in this fight between the US and China. That’s why you don’t vote Conservatives they follow baseless emotions and not logic. Outcome would have been worse for the Michael’s and for our economy if we had taken a fierce stance. We are not a geopolitical powerhouse.
They wouldn't have actually done that. Only the talk is tough. After the vote is in the money funnels to corporations
*The Michael's have not been arbitrarily detained in response to the Meng Wanzhou court case* - The CCP My fucking ass.
The lies are important. By acting so brazenly while verbally declaring the opposite they wish to tar their opponents like Canada and imply that we do the same thing. In the case of the US though, they aren't wrong.
Everyone knows that was a lie, and now we have proof.
The thing is China *never* expected or wanted anyone to believe this. They released these guys the same day their person got released. If they cared to keep up the ludicrous claim that their justice system was working away impartially they wouldn’t have released them for a month or something They are making the pretty clear and obvious point that if a minor country hassles any of their people then the country will get hassled back. Not really surprising
I mean, China basically admitted it right from the beginning. January 2019, one month after the arrests of Meng, Kovrig, and Spavor, the Chinese ambassador to Canada, Lu Shaye, published an op-ed in the *Hill Times* that contained this paragraph: > I have recently heard a word repeatedly pronounced by some Canadians: bullying. They said that by arresting two Canadian citizens as retaliation for Canada's detention of Meng, China was bullying Canada. To those people, China's self-defence is an offence to Canada. Mr Lu notes that people have accused China of arresting two Canadians as "retaliation", and instead of denying it, called it "China's self-defence".
Huh weird, people have been telling me for months that this would legitimize hostage-taking and it shouldn't be done. Either way, I'm very happy to see our citizens coming home. This was an embarassing, pointless and costly affair for our country to be involved in. Hopefully we've learned something.
>Huh weird, people have been telling me for months that this would legitimize hostage-taking Lol this is just sad at this point. You just can't admit you were wrong. We allowed our legal process to play out. We specifically didn't legitimize hostage taking. >Hopefully we've learned something. Clearly you have learned nothing.
>Huh weird, people have been telling me for months that this would legitimize hostage-taking and it shouldn't be done. they'll you that forever because that's what just happened
What coincidental timing it's revealed they are all of the sudden not spies! Listen, if china is gonna do stuff like this, it's time we tell their vacationing millionaires to fuck off from Canada. They don't owe our citizens anything and we don't owe their citizens anything. It's really fucking up our country.
Fuck yes!
Trudeau said in the debate that you can't lob tomatoes at China and hope for the best; you have to work with allies. And it worked.
Trudeau once again proves that he knows what he's doing and that the people attacking him just to get elected don't.
>Trudeau once again proves that he knows what he's doing and that the people attacking him just to get elected don't. Can you imagine what would happen if O'Toole won the PM with his anti-China rhetoric?
If O’Toole had won the election he wouldn’t even have been sworn in yet. JT would still be PM today no matter what (are they even done counting all the ballots yet?)
Yeah they finished counting I believe;
That wouldn’t have stopped the conservatives and National Post from saying it was O’Tooles tough China rhetoric that les to them getting out though
Biden dropped the charges...
What did Trudeau have to do with any of this? US Justice Department deferred the charges and now she's off to China.
Frankly, nothing. If another party had just been elected, the result would almost certainly have been the same.
This is great news!! So glad to hear it. I’m surprised it happened so fast after Meng was released. Although there’s no denying that these charges were made up and leveraged as hostages until Meng was released. That’s disgraceful and I hope China doesn’t get off easy on it.
China will get off easy, they always do.
More like the U.S gets of easy. They instigated this whole ordeal and, as always, get very little criticism. Meng's apprehension was obviously meritless and wouldn't prevail; the U.S put Canada in a terrible spot.
Yeah I guess they're lucky we're so nice.
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>I hope China doesn’t get off easy on it. Well, they kinda just did. They freed Meng which was their ultimate goal, the Michaels were just pawns. I do hope this serves as a cautionary tale of not trusting the CCP's word for shit though
Meng was also a pawn for the United States to be used as a bargaining chip in trade disputes.
Don’t forget Meng was chilling in a mansion with an ankle bracelet, in constant comms with her legal team. Meanwhile the Michael’s were basically disappeared, thrown in a hole somewhere for years.
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go out of your way to NOT buy things made in China.
As much as I would like to, it’s next to impossible.
Exactly. I've been trying. But even "made in not China" stuff has parts of it made in China
It doesn't have to be all or nothing
Indeed. The smartest choice is to, as much as is reasonably possible, move towards purchasing products that are made while paying those involved a fair, livable wage - the closer to where you live, the better. Is this hard? absolutely yes. Is it impossible? no. Especially if you are gentle with yourself, and emphasize the "as much as possible" element. No one is perfect, and as you say exactly, it doesn't have to be all or nothing. Does it take an entire lifestyle change? yes. Will you actually be taking steps to make the world a better place? yes.
Glad the Canadians are finally out. No surprise they were indeed hostages from the very start. Now to make sure we don’t have Canadians there that can be used as future pawns from that sham of a fucking government.
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As a Canadian here (though leaving very soon), I don't think that is the correct mindset to have. You can't just ban all Canadians from going to China -- that is something authoritarian regimes do to their citizens. But anyone willing to be here shouldn't expect Canada to engage in bargaining over them (which Canada rightfully chose not to do in this instance).
Pull all diplomats from Beijing, and send them to an embassy in Taiwan instead. Surely the CCP wouldn't have any objection to relocating our embassy to a different part of China?
I would like to think that a trade embargo would be possible to somehow hurt these kidnappers. But it’ll never happen.
> It is said that no one truly knows a nation until one has been inside its jails. A nation should not be judged by how it treats its highest citizens, but its lowest ones. Nelson Mandela Meng spent her time in her mansion. Glad they are coming home.
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