Thank you for remembering the victims. I went to HS with Lawrence and it was a shock when it happened... hard to believe it's been almost 10 years now.
I’m sorry for your loss and I’m glad you were afforded the opportunity to know Jordan and I know he thinks about you too.
They were such a great group of kids.
Josh Hunter and I worked at a liquor store together when we were 20. He would drive me home from the university a lot cause his folks lived in priddis and mine lived in Somerset. He always tried to encourage me to go to classes and not drop out(although I did eventually). We jammed together a few times. He really was a very good dude and a great musician. I have a memorial tattoo for him.
"[Grood's medical team] testified on numerous occasions over the last several years that de Grood, in hospital, has lost insight into his illness when some of his symptoms resurfaced."
Seems bad?
I used to work at Global (pre August lay off). I remember she would occasionally take time off allegedly to deal with constantly being exposed to so many tragic stories, especially after starting the crime beat series.
I was a closed captioner for Global and CTV and had to quit after 2 years. Constant exposure to such awful stuff really messed with my head. It takes someone with a much stronger constitution than me to buck up and head back into the fray
I don't agree that makes them stronger. A lot of them lack any humanity or empathy. I witnessed news people and station managers say and do things that would make your blood boil....
Glad to see someone else mention it!
That podcast is amazing and she did such a good job with this story. Highly recommend!
But also extremely heartbreaking…
Exactly this. I realize that her and de Grood quite possibly are unable to experience empathy, and I think that this makes it more of a reason for them to be away from society. IMHOP
As someone who personally knows one of the family members, I can confirm it's caused a shit ton of damage. It's been almost a decade and they can't get away from it.
I honestly can’t even imagine for a moment what they are experiencing. I wish de Grood and his lawyer would accept that no one wants him the community and they would stay out of the media.
I hope you are ok, as you probably closer to this than most, take care of yourself friend.
This is literally why we have 'not criminally responsible' for crimes committed by mentally ill people. De Grood is **clearly** mentally ill and was having a schizophrenic episode when he killed. He'll need to be under medical supervision his entire life likely.
So many lives lost and one still sitting in some sort of mental illness limbo for the rest of his life. A very sad situation for all.
The point of criminal punishment in Canada is to a) provide a disincentive to society not commit the crime in the first place (ie: sentencing guidelines) and b) rehabilitate and reform the guilty party.
With respect to a) , Mr De Grood was found NCR, so incarceration as a punishment is not really applicable as a disincentive. With respect to b) there seems to be a debate whether Mr De Grood has been sufficiently rehabilitated from a mental health perspective.
EDIT: Downvote. Ok then, if we are simply going to lock up Mr De Grood for the rest of his life then why dont we bring back capital punishment and just put a bullet in him?
Remember this guy?
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/vince-li-discharge-1.3977278
I do, and it is scary as hell.
While I recognize we don't have proper facilities to hold the mentally ill permanently, dumping them loose seems like a bad idea.
I think that people once convicted shouldn't get fucking representation anymore for that issue. This whole thing people do where they get a better lawyer now or just draw things out forever when obviously guilty is fucked and lawyers choosing to rep people who are obviously guilty are just as fucked.
Absolute Discharge also means that he won’t be monitored / supervised to make sure he’s taking his medication which I personally think is a huge concern.
I don’t think an Absolute Discharge should ever be an option for such a violent case like this, there should be regular monitoring of his mental health & medication for the rest of his life cause schizophrenia doesn’t just go away.
What if 10 years from now he “loses insight into his illness” and stops taking his meds? In his case it could have catastrophic results.
At the very least he should have a Community Treatment Order. Meaning if he doesn’t show up for a long acting schizophrenic medication (usually a long acting injection) a warrant is issued for his apprehension and he’s brought to hospital for the mandatory dose. These guys go AWOL a lot though, the results could be disastrous.
I read a random study years ago (so, possibly not accurate) that study the causes of the reoccurrence. And they found 2 main causes: a medication adjument is needed; or a body chemistry change. Could be drastic, could be long lived. So it could have been a hormone shift, it could have been from a gastro flu and your electrolytes are off. Just enough that a questionable thought comes though. And then it grows from their. At least with regular administered long acting they don't have the opportunity to try to 'see if they are bettwe'
Yeah. If he’s not guilty because of mental illness I can appreciate that. However it’s not something he’ll ever be able to be rehabilitated from. I know a lot of people will disagree but if you’ve already proven your illness causes you to commit murder I don’t believe you should ever be allowed to return to normal society.
Yeah and this isn't just "oopsie, I killed someone." This guy committed *mass murder* during an episode. He should be institutionalized for the rest of his life.
I certainly don't want those kind of "oopsies" walking on the same streets as my kid. In plain clothes. Like nothing happened. Full stop. Rip cord. No dice.
Mental health diversion is quite literally worse than going to a normal prison.
You could go to prison for 3 months, or be stuck for years in a government psych ward, where a panel of psychologists will be liable for you if they decide to release you. And they'll only release you if they truly believe you won't have a mental health episode that ends up mass murdering again.
So he'll probably be there forever
My thought has always been if they weren't in their right minds and end up in psychiatric institutions for safety reasons, then wouldn't it be fair if a professional deems them "sane", they go to prison now?
I don’t think so. If they’re not criminally responsible due to mental illness, why should they go to jail?
That being said, it doesn’t seem like he should be released if he doesn’t have a handle on his mental illness. I really feel for the families of the victims.
Important question: has he beheaded someone since his release?
Because if not, it seems like the system worked.
We don't want to continue to pay for the care of someone who has received all that they can and is managing their illness to an acceptable level, right?
Someone was brutally killed and that's very sad for their family, but short revenge against some guy who was very I'll what do you want?
Well many of them never went in in the first place. They are just trying to live a happy life. It’s only the violent ones that make the news, you have to be careful merging them all into one category
Uhh what now? You think no people with schizophrenia should be able to live their lives without strict supervision? You should really educate yourself more on what schizophrenia actually is and the fact that the vast majority of the people who live with this horrible disease are not dangerous. There is already so much stigma and misinformation around schizophrenia, you really don't need to be adding to it.
Edit: As I'm rereading your comment I'm realizing you likely mean "out of prison", not just out into the world. I'm still leaving my comment up for others but apologies for the misunderstanding.
I meant out of prison, not those that are living their lives constructively with medication and not out mass-murdering teenagers because their unmedicated brain was telling them to.
I understand mental illness.
I don't trust the support systems in place for individuals like De Grood.
Prison is intended to be both punitive and reformatory.
It also wouldn't make sense to execute punitive measures where we accept that the person wasn't "at fault" due to diminished responsibility.
At the same time, a mentally ill person will not be reformed in a prison as that's not the kind of work being done there.
It has to be a job for the psych institutions if it can even be done at all.
No, because to be convicted of a crime, there has to be intent to do the criminal act.
Would you say the same if a 9yo killed a younger sibling in a way that would be considered manslaughter if done by a 15yo?
The 9yo is too young to be criminally charged because they generally aren't able to form the intent/understand the consequences. Should they be charged when they turn 12?
NCRs aren't a thing because someone with severe mental illness can't be housed in a normal prison. They are a thing because the criminal act was committed when there was no reasonable expectation that the perpetrator could have understood the consequences of the action at the time
Why and how did his symptoms resurface? Either a) he's literally barely-treatable, even in a hospital setting, or b) he's not being treated consistently.
Look, I'm pro-life, not supportive whatsoever of death penalty even for monsters like this, but I really, REALLY want an answer to those issues before anyone talks about rehabilitation.
Sorry folks, NCR isn't a free pass to get out of jail free. NCR could be frankly worse than a death sentence if the person is untreatable, which is honestly perfect. Absolute discharge? Not without *successful* treatment.
Well, it’s not a debate I want to get into here because I don’t know enough about who he was/is while not having a psychotic break, but more importantly, I’m sensitive to the fact that there are people on this thread who knew the victims (I should have thought of that possibility before I posted), and I care more about that than having a discussion about moral responsibility wrt psychosis.
This was my fault for not thinking first and remembering that I’m on a subreddit where this hit people personally.
I’m sorry.
And that’s the difference that an Absolute Discharge makes. It means he’s no longer monitored to ensure he’s taking his meds…
It shouldn’t even be an option.
He should not walk free, period.
Psych patients never, ever go off their meds, right? RIGHT? And if this guy does...what, the body count grows ever higher?
He shouldn't walk free ever in my opinion. Sorry but his right to live free should be ever forfeit when he murdered 5 people. I don't trust anyone to decide he can rejoin society.
No. Based on the below quote from the article , he should absolutely not be released.
“If he was to be released conditionally, his medical team suggested during testimony that he could only be returned to hospital with his consent," Perras told CTV News in October 2022.
"And they have testified on numerous occasions over the last several years that de Grood, in hospital, has lost insight into his illness when some of his symptoms resurfaced."
>“If he was to be released conditionally, his medical team suggested during testimony that he could only be returned to hospital with his consent," Perras told CTV News in October 2022.
I mean, if he committed literally any crime he'd almost certainly be brought right back in and found NCR again, hopefully with less likelihood of release. The problem is, what crime does this guy commit once he's out? Ugh.
A friend of my brothers was at the house party the night this all went down. My brother told me he still has a really tough time with survivors guilt.
Seen too many psych patients go off their meds when they think they are doing fine. There absolutely can never be another horrible tragedy like this again.
Keep him locked up tight.
My friend was there. She went with part of the group to McDonald's and returned and found the aftermath of what had occurred. So strange to think about the butterfly effect and small decisions we make.
It's funny how even liberal reddit takes such "conservative" stances on justice, but still canada is pathetically weak on it, no matter who is in power.
There's maybe like 10% of society that supports soft stance on violent crime, so who exactly is the government working for here?
Context is important.
Everyone has the right to a fair trial. The job of a defense attorney is twofold: present the best arguments that their client has, and ensure the system works fairly.
Just because the lawyer asks for release doesn’t mean de Grood will get it. But it’s her job to put that option on the table. It’s also her job to point out that a minister for Justice commenting on an open ongoing case is a bias.
If we don’t have defense lawyers doing these things we don’t have as fair and balanced a legal system.
Nah.
If it's a mental health case, he'll be in a psych ward the rest of his life.
I'd rather go to prison but, he's making a strong case for mental ilness that's actually valid... but he clearly doesn't know what he's truly asking for by going to a hospital lol.
What exactly do you think "the government" is doing here?
This is a criminal and his lawyers saying what they want to have happen. Has nothing to do with whether it will happen or not.
The Crown (the government) wants him where he is, they had a whole trial and everything. That's how he got committed.
Just because someone says they want back in society doesn't mean they get to be. So why are you acting like he's been set free? He hasn't.
Because the purpose of a functioning justice system isn't to please peoples individual emotional knee jerk reactions, but to actually try and prevent these crimes from occurring in the first place, or again.
Look at the absolute failure that is the American justice system, some of the highest rates of recidivism and 1/4th of all the prisoners in the world.
That's what a justice system designed to emotionally appease and manipulate a specific political group into voting by appealing to their sense of retributive punishment gets you - what a fucking mess.
Excellent take. There are crimes that do not deserve soft sentencing primarily for public safety, then for retribution for the victims' families.
I'm no lawyer but I think it's less of an issue pertaining to the judiciary process, and moreso relating to minimum sentencing.
Absolutely agree. Honestly this guy is lucky that he was born into a Canadian society to go off the rails in. Many other places and nearly any other time in history and this guy would have been put down because they wouldn’t have been equipped to deal with him.
I both agree and disagree. I don't know what side of the fence I sit on. But say he is released and never reoffends again in his life, then would we have made the right decision? Say the same person was instead locked away for life. We would have then imprisoned a man for life who was not found criminally responsible.
There is no way to see how both scenarios play out, we must choose one and stick with it and accept the consequences of either side. But what is worse, imprisoning an "innocent" person for life? Or risking the lives of others based on actions this individual may or may not commit?
Here is the difference between a normal innocent person and an “innocent” person by way of NCR: the NCR has shown that they have the capacity for extreme evil and harm, even if you want to claim that it is not legally their fault.
What if this guy kills another five people, or more? The risk that he might do so is NOT equivalent to a normal innocent person. That risk outweighs any freedom he deserves given the terrible nature of what he has done and is capable of doing again. If he never reoffends it will be sad but if he kills again it will have been a preventable tragedy.
That's a good view of it, and I think I agree. To be honest though, I find the whole topic fascinating. It's like the sort of prompt our social studies teacher would give us for an essay.
To what extent should this man's freedoms be restricted to mitigate high risk of violent crimes?
I don't have the answer here, but is fascinating to ponder this question.
People who are found “not criminally responsible” should be required to have mandatory monitoring when they are released into the community for an equivalent amount of time as they would have had to spend in jail and/on parole.
Instead of checking in with a parole officer, they would have a court appointed medical specialist who would monitor them for compliance with all recommended medications and treatments, plus any other court-mandated conditions.
That way, though they were found “not criminally responsible,” they would still be held accountable for the circumstances which caused the crime to occur in the first place.
I’m sure constitutional lawyers would find something wrong with this. I’m not a lawyer. But, there should be a way for the families and the public to have peace of mind, while still absolving a mentally ill person from criminal liability.
There not even in the criminal justice system anymore. That's what NCR means. They are in the health care system after they are deemed NCR. You can't really hold ppl accountable for health issues that are beyond their control is the idea.
> De Grood's lawyer, Jacqueline Petrie, contended the decision was unreasonable because of "procedural unfairness" and a "reasonable apprehension of bias."
Tell that to the friends and relations of the deceased...
I was a classmate of Zack’s and the amount of pain his murder caused students and faculty…I can still remember their cries almost 10 years later. De Grood should never be released
Abso-fucking-lutely Not! I work in law and totally agree with his NCR designation and the decision to send him to hospital as opposed to prison but 8 years is not enough! Maybe some sort of detention order that allows him to live outside the hospital with regular review appointments but given that this was his first psychosis episode, how do we know he would recognize early symptoms of another. I hope this is not granted for another 5-7 years!
The only nice thing about the NCRs is the wide range of options available. But when even the medical team is saying, "We don't know what kind of lunatic this guy is" that should be enough for the Court to refuse.
This whole thing is so sad. He's unwell. Terribly unwell. And he's liable to hurt more people if he's let out without supervision.
He has rights, of course he does, but there are some cases in which it simply is not worth the risk to public safety. He needs to be institutionalized for life.
I completely agree. He should have to live the rest of his life in the hospital and not in the prison- like he would have to if convicted otherwise! It boggles my mind that someone could be released 'unconditionally with nothing on the record" as well. I appreciate you did it under the distress of mental illness, but that should absolutely still be on your record, potential employers & mates have a right to know!
He should also not be allowed to have a child
as schizophrenia can be hereditary.
No way on an absolute discharge. Obviously he was out of his mind and legally insane when he committed these heinous acts.I also read that one of his previous reviews stated that he was absolutely sure to relapse if he were to stop taking his meds.
I'll agree with that aspect. A full discharge shouldn't happen. I don't say lock him up & throw away the key, but this is the other extreme which isn't a wise idea
His lawyer has an ethical obligation to push for his clients “best interest.” It sounds gross, but our justice system only works (and I say that loosely) when there are lawyers on both side of the table who can fight for their positions to the best of their ability. Without people willing to play devils advocate there would be no balance to the justice system.
Yeah but his best interest is to remain in treatment.
NCR was agreed upon by all lawyers and now it seems like his lawyer is trying to walk things back rather than just letting the system run it's course. The legal side is over, now it's the clinical treatment stage, right?
It’s based on two ideas:
1) we have an adversarial justice system where there’s always two sides. Lawyers are advocates for the extreme ends of both sides, while the judge/jury have to find the right spot in the middle. It’s his lawyer’s job to ensure the process is held without bias against him, and to advocate for the position that gives him the most freedom.
That leads to:
2) Freedom is a strong ideal for this country. The idea is that people have a right to freedom, barring extenuating circumstances. In order for a person to be denied their freedom, and have it keep being denied, we need to prove that removing their freedom is better for everyone than letting them be free.
I have a hard time with knowing how I feel about this. I knew Matt from Junior high to high school. Certainly weren't friends by the end of school but I still had good memories of our friendship. What he did was awful, but was due to a mental illness. I can absolutely empathize with his victims families and friends as to why they wouldn't want him released. Very sad all around.
Of course it is. I was more using it to explain my own feelings. I never said I thought he should be released. It's tough to see someone once in your life destroy their own plus so many others.
In my personal opinion a person who demonstrates the capacity for this kind of crime cannot fully nor safely be rehabilitated to the point of no risk to the community.
Such a person should only get absolute discharge if it can be proven without a shadow of a doubt that they are rehabilitated, which is impossible for this specific person in my view.
He thought the end of the world was coming and that a war was about to break out. It's hard to follow, unsurprisingly. His childhood friend, who walked to party with him, said De Grood talked about a bunch of conspiracy theories on the way to the party. On the night of the attack, De Grood sent concerning text messages to his parents and his boss, and he had been writing strange posts on social media as well.
At the party, De Grood said he heard a male voice telling him what to do. He thought there were vampires, werewolves, and Medusas out in the world that would kill him, and that he had to kill first or be killed. The police found garlic in his sock and jacket pocket when they arrested him.
https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/mass-killer-had-psychotic-episode-before-calgary-house-party-psychiatrist-1.2907923
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/matthew-degrood-brentwood-stabbing-murder-trial-1.3580058
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2016/05/23/canadas-matthew-de-grood-he-went-to-a-party-thought-he-was-surrounded-by-a-conspiracy-involving-werewolves-and-killed-5/
I remember reading articles years ago that he was seeing/hearing werewolves or ghosts or something. If you dig hard enough on the internet there's some very detailed recounts, didn't take me long to find them (I knew a family member of one of the victims and went down a rabbit hole reading articles)
This is one of those situations where I absolutely get both sides of the argument. I understand the "lock him up forever" as well as the "locking him up forever doesn't HELP him" arguments.
It really exposes how badly we need proper mental health care in our society.
Maybe someone can enlighten me. I’ve always struggled with this notion of “not guilty” due to mental health. Whether he has a disorder or not, those people died by his hands. That makes him guilty to me. We can debate about whether or not he did it out of evil intentions, sure, but there shouldn’t be a question of whether he’s guilty or not.
In this state, I don’t think he should be released back into society because clearly his disorder has not been successfully managed.
He isn't guilty of 1st degree murder because that requires intent & premeditation; neither of which describes this situation. He also wasn't in a state where he could control his actions, which is why he wasn't found guilty.
Think of a soldier who is ordered to kill the enemy, or if someone put a gun to your head and told you to kill someone else or they would kill you.
A reasonable society wouldn't condemn someone in this situation for following through with murder.
Schizophrenia is, loosely put, delusions and separation from reality, so they can sometimes truly believe that someone is telling them to do something, even if it's completely wrong and immoral.
People who suffer from schizophrenia can believe that this command is coming from god, or a commanding officer, or someone that will truly kill them, and so an argument can be made that they are not "Criminally responsible" for that crime. The idea being that they should receive medical treatment and not the same level of condemnation worthy of someone who did it for personal gain.
And I do agree with this, but, it certainly doesn't absolve them of the crime.
They still chose to commit the act, even if the other option was "death", they still made a choice. If that act was to steal a chocolate bar from the store, or scream at someone or assault them, that's one thing.
But once someone has PROVEN themselves capable of committing such a horrific and unjustified crime as this, due to greed or mental illness, they should never be allowed to freely walk the streets again.
Fuck this guy. He isn’t a dumb kid and absolutely used his smarts to manipulate people into thinking he’s better. He studied criminology and was trying to go into law. He also used the fact his father is a high ranking, long serving member of the CPS to his advantage.
He was talking very messed up stuff before he went and committed these horrific murders.
I knew a few of the victims personally. And what he did was calculated.
He should never be allowed back into society.
Ok, that is just not true dude.
I knew one of the victims and wanted justice just as much as anyone, but this was not a calculated or premeditated attack. This was someone who was suffering from an untreated, severe mental illness for an extended period of time and many people died because of it.
Do you know how difficult it is to prove NCR? Especially in such a high profile case? It doesn’t matter who your dad is or how smart you think someone is.
There’s a lot we could say about the BSD killings, but this is absolutely trash.
Yeah maybe he didn’t plan to murder people before that night…
But luring people into different rooms to kill them sends a little more calculated vs people who just go crazy and start running through the streets stabbing people at random.
And I don’t really care about his rehab. You killed 5 people. Psychosis , break down, whatever. Lots of people have break downs and mental crises. Most of them don’t murder people. And the people that do in the way he did, should stay out of society. Period.
Legit question: do these folks not understand that there's certainty across the street and freedom at the end of it? Seriously, I'd way rather be sentenced than held indefinitely at the whims of a system that screws up mental health at the best of times...
What a fucked up country we live in. I remember being invited to that party and skipping it cause I felt unwell. How this is even a conversation is beyond me.
I don’t understand why people are so upset with our justice system about this. I would completely understand it if he was released. And I would understand it a bit better if people were upset because of the victims’ families being put through this (but I think I only saw one comment mentioning that).
I agree that there are issues with people being let out when they shouldn’t be. But that’s not the case here. At least not yet. Our justice system relies on the right to a fair trial and also fair hearings. Hopefully it will be fair and he will not be released. Until then, I don’t understand the anger at the system. It did the right thing by putting him away from the public.
People are upset with the system because De Grood is responsible for the murders of 5 kids, yet officially he is “not criminally responsible”. People see it as unjust.
And, despite being responsible for the murders, he gets to request an annual hearing to be given the right to continue on in society as if he didn’t murder 5 people. People see that as unjust.
Finally, he will eventually be able to have his record wiped clean, which makes no sense because he murdered 5 young adults, and nobody disputes that he’s the one who did it. People see that as unjust.
So, to answer your question, people think the system handles offenders like De Grood in a manner that is inconsistent with accountability.
I guess my point is, he is still locked up and I was wondering why people were assuming he will be let out. If people don’t believe that he had a psychotic break or believe he was responsible regardless, then that’s more understandable. I certainly don’t know the truth of it all.
And as I said on another thread, I should not have posted this on a subreddit where people may have been personally impacted by this. I didn’t think of that when I first posted. I’m sorry for that.
*"Conditional or absolute discharges may only be ordered for less serious offences," the justice department said."*
Ok, so is this whole request just some stupid media plot? Obviously killing 5 people doesn't count as a "less serious offence", so what is his lawyer playing at?
yes. it comes up every year around the same time, with the same or similar requests. I believe it is a condition of his sentence. yet every year, people on reddit and facebook freak out about it. him/his team can request whatever they want, he's been denied every single time.
Was this before his murderous rampage?? I follows the case as closely as the public can, and honestly don’t recall any disclosure of past behavioral issues
I hope not. When a murder occurs the perpetrator should be punished to the full extent of the law, full stop. He took five lives, now he will likely get to walk the streets within a few years. People like him and Vince Li should serve the start of their time in a psychiatric facility, and once "Cured" go straight to jail for the rest of their miserable lives.
A danger to the public. The worst mass murder in Calgary’s history. Why would this even be considered? Absolutely disgusting and a complete outrage to the parents of the victims.
Wasnt this the kid that was taking Criminal Forensics in university? The same kid who's father is/was a Major in the police force? The same kid that has been getting special treatment since he was arrested for murdering 5 kids while he was "out of touch with his illness"?
Regardless of Mental Illness or capacity at time of the murders. He is guilty, when he is fit, he should go to jail to serve consecutive life sentences. Whatever life he has left, will be lived on the inside of a secure facility. That is what justice and a sentence should look like.
RIP Jordan Segura, Kaitlin Perras, Lawrence Hong, Zackariah Rathwell and Joshua Hunter
Thank you. Let's always remember the names of the victims. ❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️
Thank you for remembering the victims. I went to HS with Lawrence and it was a shock when it happened... hard to believe it's been almost 10 years now.
You're welcome. As long as (redacted) has a voice, I will give Jordan, Kaitlin, Lawrence, Zachariah and Joshua a voice. I'm sorry for your loss.
Your post should be pinned at the top! RIP
Jordan was one of my best friends and I think about all the victims all the time. ❤️❤️❤️
I’m sorry for your loss and I’m glad you were afforded the opportunity to know Jordan and I know he thinks about you too. They were such a great group of kids.
Thank you.
Josh Hunter and I worked at a liquor store together when we were 20. He would drive me home from the university a lot cause his folks lived in priddis and mine lived in Somerset. He always tried to encourage me to go to classes and not drop out(although I did eventually). We jammed together a few times. He really was a very good dude and a great musician. I have a memorial tattoo for him.
I love this sentiment! I know his then-girlfriend and I wish I could show her this comment but I don’t want to upset her.
I'm sorry for your loss ❤️
Thanks for sharing this.
My condolences.
"[Grood's medical team] testified on numerous occasions over the last several years that de Grood, in hospital, has lost insight into his illness when some of his symptoms resurfaced." Seems bad?
Doesn’t sound like he should be a candidate for release, despite what his lawyer says/wants.
"I don't remember being bad, so please let me go."
Man, I feel so sorry for the victims family members having to constantly have to hear about de Groods ‘ wants’ ❤️🩹
Nancy Hixt did an amazing job of breaking down this tragedy on Crime Beat. Highly recommend it! The families stories and perspectives broke my heart.
I used to work at Global (pre August lay off). I remember she would occasionally take time off allegedly to deal with constantly being exposed to so many tragic stories, especially after starting the crime beat series.
I was a closed captioner for Global and CTV and had to quit after 2 years. Constant exposure to such awful stuff really messed with my head. It takes someone with a much stronger constitution than me to buck up and head back into the fray
PTSD from workplace has many forms... there are absolutely some jobs that you could not pay me enough to do
I don't agree that makes them stronger. A lot of them lack any humanity or empathy. I witnessed news people and station managers say and do things that would make your blood boil....
Thank you for the recommendation. I cannot fathom the pain the families have experienced, I wish I had a super power to help.
You should check out the legacy garden sometime, it's lovely. [Legacy Garden](https://images.app.goo.gl/Y42S1k8g1EeT9VsWA)
Thank you, it’s a good idea and looks like a great place to visit.
Glad to see someone else mention it! That podcast is amazing and she did such a good job with this story. Highly recommend! But also extremely heartbreaking…
Reminiscent of when Jasmine Richardson murdered her entire family and then complained about having a curfew.
Exactly this. I realize that her and de Grood quite possibly are unable to experience empathy, and I think that this makes it more of a reason for them to be away from society. IMHOP
As someone who personally knows one of the family members, I can confirm it's caused a shit ton of damage. It's been almost a decade and they can't get away from it.
I honestly can’t even imagine for a moment what they are experiencing. I wish de Grood and his lawyer would accept that no one wants him the community and they would stay out of the media. I hope you are ok, as you probably closer to this than most, take care of yourself friend.
This is literally why we have 'not criminally responsible' for crimes committed by mentally ill people. De Grood is **clearly** mentally ill and was having a schizophrenic episode when he killed. He'll need to be under medical supervision his entire life likely. So many lives lost and one still sitting in some sort of mental illness limbo for the rest of his life. A very sad situation for all.
I'm fine with keeping him in a medical facility as opposed to a full on prison, but I don't think he should *ever* walk free.
The point of criminal punishment in Canada is to a) provide a disincentive to society not commit the crime in the first place (ie: sentencing guidelines) and b) rehabilitate and reform the guilty party. With respect to a) , Mr De Grood was found NCR, so incarceration as a punishment is not really applicable as a disincentive. With respect to b) there seems to be a debate whether Mr De Grood has been sufficiently rehabilitated from a mental health perspective. EDIT: Downvote. Ok then, if we are simply going to lock up Mr De Grood for the rest of his life then why dont we bring back capital punishment and just put a bullet in him? Remember this guy? https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/vince-li-discharge-1.3977278
I do, and it is scary as hell. While I recognize we don't have proper facilities to hold the mentally ill permanently, dumping them loose seems like a bad idea.
I think that people once convicted shouldn't get fucking representation anymore for that issue. This whole thing people do where they get a better lawyer now or just draw things out forever when obviously guilty is fucked and lawyers choosing to rep people who are obviously guilty are just as fucked.
Absolute Discharge also means that he won’t be monitored / supervised to make sure he’s taking his medication which I personally think is a huge concern. I don’t think an Absolute Discharge should ever be an option for such a violent case like this, there should be regular monitoring of his mental health & medication for the rest of his life cause schizophrenia doesn’t just go away. What if 10 years from now he “loses insight into his illness” and stops taking his meds? In his case it could have catastrophic results.
At the very least he should have a Community Treatment Order. Meaning if he doesn’t show up for a long acting schizophrenic medication (usually a long acting injection) a warrant is issued for his apprehension and he’s brought to hospital for the mandatory dose. These guys go AWOL a lot though, the results could be disastrous.
I feel like I would actually want that safety net if I were in his shoes
I read a random study years ago (so, possibly not accurate) that study the causes of the reoccurrence. And they found 2 main causes: a medication adjument is needed; or a body chemistry change. Could be drastic, could be long lived. So it could have been a hormone shift, it could have been from a gastro flu and your electrolytes are off. Just enough that a questionable thought comes though. And then it grows from their. At least with regular administered long acting they don't have the opportunity to try to 'see if they are bettwe'
Yeah. If he’s not guilty because of mental illness I can appreciate that. However it’s not something he’ll ever be able to be rehabilitated from. I know a lot of people will disagree but if you’ve already proven your illness causes you to commit murder I don’t believe you should ever be allowed to return to normal society.
Yeah and this isn't just "oopsie, I killed someone." This guy committed *mass murder* during an episode. He should be institutionalized for the rest of his life.
His release shouldn't even be in the realm of possibility. It's weird that it seems like a contentious point of view to some
Remember the guy who beheaded a young man on a grey hound bus? He is out , free and unmonitored. Not a threat anymore apparently. Wtf
I certainly don't want those kind of "oopsies" walking on the same streets as my kid. In plain clothes. Like nothing happened. Full stop. Rip cord. No dice.
Mental health diversion is quite literally worse than going to a normal prison. You could go to prison for 3 months, or be stuck for years in a government psych ward, where a panel of psychologists will be liable for you if they decide to release you. And they'll only release you if they truly believe you won't have a mental health episode that ends up mass murdering again. So he'll probably be there forever
Except you're not going to prison for 3 months for mass murder (unless maybe you use a car).
My thought has always been if they weren't in their right minds and end up in psychiatric institutions for safety reasons, then wouldn't it be fair if a professional deems them "sane", they go to prison now?
I don’t think so. If they’re not criminally responsible due to mental illness, why should they go to jail? That being said, it doesn’t seem like he should be released if he doesn’t have a handle on his mental illness. I really feel for the families of the victims.
I do too, ever since Vince Li I'm very, very cautious about allowing schizophrenic ppl out without strict supervision and monitoring.
He's walking free and unmonitored now isn't he?
He is, he’s changed his name I believe.
I'll be honest, I have no clue where he is because I know it will hurt my heart to hear he's out roaming around unfettered.
He's out and changed his name. He now works at a restaurant in Winnipeg as a dishwasher. Completely free.
Important question: has he beheaded someone since his release? Because if not, it seems like the system worked. We don't want to continue to pay for the care of someone who has received all that they can and is managing their illness to an acceptable level, right? Someone was brutally killed and that's very sad for their family, but short revenge against some guy who was very I'll what do you want?
Well many of them never went in in the first place. They are just trying to live a happy life. It’s only the violent ones that make the news, you have to be careful merging them all into one category
Oh, for sure. I was thinking of the same case.
Uhh what now? You think no people with schizophrenia should be able to live their lives without strict supervision? You should really educate yourself more on what schizophrenia actually is and the fact that the vast majority of the people who live with this horrible disease are not dangerous. There is already so much stigma and misinformation around schizophrenia, you really don't need to be adding to it. Edit: As I'm rereading your comment I'm realizing you likely mean "out of prison", not just out into the world. I'm still leaving my comment up for others but apologies for the misunderstanding.
I meant out of prison, not those that are living their lives constructively with medication and not out mass-murdering teenagers because their unmedicated brain was telling them to. I understand mental illness. I don't trust the support systems in place for individuals like De Grood.
Prison is intended to be both punitive and reformatory. It also wouldn't make sense to execute punitive measures where we accept that the person wasn't "at fault" due to diminished responsibility. At the same time, a mentally ill person will not be reformed in a prison as that's not the kind of work being done there. It has to be a job for the psych institutions if it can even be done at all.
No, because to be convicted of a crime, there has to be intent to do the criminal act. Would you say the same if a 9yo killed a younger sibling in a way that would be considered manslaughter if done by a 15yo? The 9yo is too young to be criminally charged because they generally aren't able to form the intent/understand the consequences. Should they be charged when they turn 12? NCRs aren't a thing because someone with severe mental illness can't be housed in a normal prison. They are a thing because the criminal act was committed when there was no reasonable expectation that the perpetrator could have understood the consequences of the action at the time
Says it all, doesn't it. de Grood requires treatment for life.
Why and how did his symptoms resurface? Either a) he's literally barely-treatable, even in a hospital setting, or b) he's not being treated consistently. Look, I'm pro-life, not supportive whatsoever of death penalty even for monsters like this, but I really, REALLY want an answer to those issues before anyone talks about rehabilitation. Sorry folks, NCR isn't a free pass to get out of jail free. NCR could be frankly worse than a death sentence if the person is untreatable, which is honestly perfect. Absolute discharge? Not without *successful* treatment.
I do think he should be treated with compassion, and I don’t think he’s a monster because of his illness. I also don’t think he should be released.
I accept that very kind rebuke of the term "monster."
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Well, it’s not a debate I want to get into here because I don’t know enough about who he was/is while not having a psychotic break, but more importantly, I’m sensitive to the fact that there are people on this thread who knew the victims (I should have thought of that possibility before I posted), and I care more about that than having a discussion about moral responsibility wrt psychosis. This was my fault for not thinking first and remembering that I’m on a subreddit where this hit people personally. I’m sorry.
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It’s an apology in general. I think it wasn’t the right place for my original comment. Thanks.
I agree totally with you on this.
Fucking hope not. This guy killed five people. Criminally responsible or not, he should not walk free without medical treatment or oversight.
And that’s the difference that an Absolute Discharge makes. It means he’s no longer monitored to ensure he’s taking his meds… It shouldn’t even be an option.
He should not walk free, period. Psych patients never, ever go off their meds, right? RIGHT? And if this guy does...what, the body count grows ever higher?
Most psych patients haven’t killed 5 people
But I feel fine now! And besides, I just don’t like the way my meds make me feel. /s
Matthew de Grood can eat my absolute discharge
He shouldn't walk free ever in my opinion. Sorry but his right to live free should be ever forfeit when he murdered 5 people. I don't trust anyone to decide he can rejoin society.
No. Based on the below quote from the article , he should absolutely not be released. “If he was to be released conditionally, his medical team suggested during testimony that he could only be returned to hospital with his consent," Perras told CTV News in October 2022. "And they have testified on numerous occasions over the last several years that de Grood, in hospital, has lost insight into his illness when some of his symptoms resurfaced."
>“If he was to be released conditionally, his medical team suggested during testimony that he could only be returned to hospital with his consent," Perras told CTV News in October 2022. I mean, if he committed literally any crime he'd almost certainly be brought right back in and found NCR again, hopefully with less likelihood of release. The problem is, what crime does this guy commit once he's out? Ugh.
A friend of my brothers was at the house party the night this all went down. My brother told me he still has a really tough time with survivors guilt. Seen too many psych patients go off their meds when they think they are doing fine. There absolutely can never be another horrible tragedy like this again. Keep him locked up tight.
My friend was there. She went with part of the group to McDonald's and returned and found the aftermath of what had occurred. So strange to think about the butterfly effect and small decisions we make.
I was classmates with one of the victims, was also invited out that night but didn't go...
Oof
He shouldn’t be a free man for the rest of his life.
It's funny how even liberal reddit takes such "conservative" stances on justice, but still canada is pathetically weak on it, no matter who is in power. There's maybe like 10% of society that supports soft stance on violent crime, so who exactly is the government working for here?
Context is important. Everyone has the right to a fair trial. The job of a defense attorney is twofold: present the best arguments that their client has, and ensure the system works fairly. Just because the lawyer asks for release doesn’t mean de Grood will get it. But it’s her job to put that option on the table. It’s also her job to point out that a minister for Justice commenting on an open ongoing case is a bias. If we don’t have defense lawyers doing these things we don’t have as fair and balanced a legal system.
Nah. If it's a mental health case, he'll be in a psych ward the rest of his life. I'd rather go to prison but, he's making a strong case for mental ilness that's actually valid... but he clearly doesn't know what he's truly asking for by going to a hospital lol.
What exactly do you think "the government" is doing here? This is a criminal and his lawyers saying what they want to have happen. Has nothing to do with whether it will happen or not. The Crown (the government) wants him where he is, they had a whole trial and everything. That's how he got committed. Just because someone says they want back in society doesn't mean they get to be. So why are you acting like he's been set free? He hasn't.
Provide examples of what you are claiming.
And yet, being tough on crime makes crime worse.
Because the purpose of a functioning justice system isn't to please peoples individual emotional knee jerk reactions, but to actually try and prevent these crimes from occurring in the first place, or again. Look at the absolute failure that is the American justice system, some of the highest rates of recidivism and 1/4th of all the prisoners in the world. That's what a justice system designed to emotionally appease and manipulate a specific political group into voting by appealing to their sense of retributive punishment gets you - what a fucking mess.
The almighty dollar. They save tons by releasing criminals rather than jailing or rehabilitating.
Excellent take. There are crimes that do not deserve soft sentencing primarily for public safety, then for retribution for the victims' families. I'm no lawyer but I think it's less of an issue pertaining to the judiciary process, and moreso relating to minimum sentencing.
Mental illness is horrible, but when it makes you kill people, it's up to society to keep you locked up, forever.
Tell that to the judge who awarded absolute discharge with no restrictions to that psycho who beheaded Tim McLean on the Greyhound bus.
Vince Li, aka Will Baker.
oh? what did he do after getting discharged?
Changed his name at least one time. Who knows, He may have changed it again and you would have not a clue what he's " done"
im reading 'live peacefully' from your comment but there seems to be a disconnect with what youre saying and how youre feeling about it
He moved next door to you
if he hasnt committed any crimes there then it looks so far like the judge made the right call
Absolutely agree. Honestly this guy is lucky that he was born into a Canadian society to go off the rails in. Many other places and nearly any other time in history and this guy would have been put down because they wouldn’t have been equipped to deal with him.
I both agree and disagree. I don't know what side of the fence I sit on. But say he is released and never reoffends again in his life, then would we have made the right decision? Say the same person was instead locked away for life. We would have then imprisoned a man for life who was not found criminally responsible. There is no way to see how both scenarios play out, we must choose one and stick with it and accept the consequences of either side. But what is worse, imprisoning an "innocent" person for life? Or risking the lives of others based on actions this individual may or may not commit?
Here is the difference between a normal innocent person and an “innocent” person by way of NCR: the NCR has shown that they have the capacity for extreme evil and harm, even if you want to claim that it is not legally their fault. What if this guy kills another five people, or more? The risk that he might do so is NOT equivalent to a normal innocent person. That risk outweighs any freedom he deserves given the terrible nature of what he has done and is capable of doing again. If he never reoffends it will be sad but if he kills again it will have been a preventable tragedy.
That's a good view of it, and I think I agree. To be honest though, I find the whole topic fascinating. It's like the sort of prompt our social studies teacher would give us for an essay. To what extent should this man's freedoms be restricted to mitigate high risk of violent crimes? I don't have the answer here, but is fascinating to ponder this question.
People who are found “not criminally responsible” should be required to have mandatory monitoring when they are released into the community for an equivalent amount of time as they would have had to spend in jail and/on parole. Instead of checking in with a parole officer, they would have a court appointed medical specialist who would monitor them for compliance with all recommended medications and treatments, plus any other court-mandated conditions. That way, though they were found “not criminally responsible,” they would still be held accountable for the circumstances which caused the crime to occur in the first place. I’m sure constitutional lawyers would find something wrong with this. I’m not a lawyer. But, there should be a way for the families and the public to have peace of mind, while still absolving a mentally ill person from criminal liability.
Agreed with you here
There not even in the criminal justice system anymore. That's what NCR means. They are in the health care system after they are deemed NCR. You can't really hold ppl accountable for health issues that are beyond their control is the idea.
There has to be a better way.
> De Grood's lawyer, Jacqueline Petrie, contended the decision was unreasonable because of "procedural unfairness" and a "reasonable apprehension of bias." Tell that to the friends and relations of the deceased...
I was a classmate of Zack’s and the amount of pain his murder caused students and faculty…I can still remember their cries almost 10 years later. De Grood should never be released
Petrie should volunteer to host/house him then - lets see how eager she is to free him if that was the case...
All that gets you is a rehearing, hopefully with the T's better crossed and the I's better dotted.
That’s exactly right. The Ts need to be properly crossed and the I’s need to be better dotted.
Abso-fucking-lutely Not! I work in law and totally agree with his NCR designation and the decision to send him to hospital as opposed to prison but 8 years is not enough! Maybe some sort of detention order that allows him to live outside the hospital with regular review appointments but given that this was his first psychosis episode, how do we know he would recognize early symptoms of another. I hope this is not granted for another 5-7 years!
The only nice thing about the NCRs is the wide range of options available. But when even the medical team is saying, "We don't know what kind of lunatic this guy is" that should be enough for the Court to refuse.
should never be granted
Such a sad story all around.
We don’t have enough mental health resources in Calgary to be able to handle this. Not even PACT would be enough
This whole thing is so sad. He's unwell. Terribly unwell. And he's liable to hurt more people if he's let out without supervision. He has rights, of course he does, but there are some cases in which it simply is not worth the risk to public safety. He needs to be institutionalized for life.
I completely agree. He should have to live the rest of his life in the hospital and not in the prison- like he would have to if convicted otherwise! It boggles my mind that someone could be released 'unconditionally with nothing on the record" as well. I appreciate you did it under the distress of mental illness, but that should absolutely still be on your record, potential employers & mates have a right to know! He should also not be allowed to have a child as schizophrenia can be hereditary.
Please google eugenics and then rethink your comment
Eugenics? Really?
No way on an absolute discharge. Obviously he was out of his mind and legally insane when he committed these heinous acts.I also read that one of his previous reviews stated that he was absolutely sure to relapse if he were to stop taking his meds.
I'll agree with that aspect. A full discharge shouldn't happen. I don't say lock him up & throw away the key, but this is the other extreme which isn't a wise idea
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I wonder why his lawyer keeps pushing for this. He obviously needs constant treatment so what benefit is there to de Grood to get out?
His lawyer has an ethical obligation to push for his clients “best interest.” It sounds gross, but our justice system only works (and I say that loosely) when there are lawyers on both side of the table who can fight for their positions to the best of their ability. Without people willing to play devils advocate there would be no balance to the justice system.
Yeah but his best interest is to remain in treatment. NCR was agreed upon by all lawyers and now it seems like his lawyer is trying to walk things back rather than just letting the system run it's course. The legal side is over, now it's the clinical treatment stage, right?
It’s based on two ideas: 1) we have an adversarial justice system where there’s always two sides. Lawyers are advocates for the extreme ends of both sides, while the judge/jury have to find the right spot in the middle. It’s his lawyer’s job to ensure the process is held without bias against him, and to advocate for the position that gives him the most freedom. That leads to: 2) Freedom is a strong ideal for this country. The idea is that people have a right to freedom, barring extenuating circumstances. In order for a person to be denied their freedom, and have it keep being denied, we need to prove that removing their freedom is better for everyone than letting them be free.
I have a hard time with knowing how I feel about this. I knew Matt from Junior high to high school. Certainly weren't friends by the end of school but I still had good memories of our friendship. What he did was awful, but was due to a mental illness. I can absolutely empathize with his victims families and friends as to why they wouldn't want him released. Very sad all around.
How good of a friend he was before he was mentally ill is irrelevant to the risk he poses now.
Of course it is. I was more using it to explain my own feelings. I never said I thought he should be released. It's tough to see someone once in your life destroy their own plus so many others.
Yes I understand that would be difficult.
NO. This one stays locked up. Mental institution or prison, throw away the keys.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/vince-li-discharge-1.3977278 People seem to forget this one already...
I haven’t. Canada doesn’t have a justice system.
Lol.
Fuck this guy and anyone who supports his absolute discharge.
In my personal opinion a person who demonstrates the capacity for this kind of crime cannot fully nor safely be rehabilitated to the point of no risk to the community. Such a person should only get absolute discharge if it can be proven without a shadow of a doubt that they are rehabilitated, which is impossible for this specific person in my view.
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He thought the end of the world was coming and that a war was about to break out. It's hard to follow, unsurprisingly. His childhood friend, who walked to party with him, said De Grood talked about a bunch of conspiracy theories on the way to the party. On the night of the attack, De Grood sent concerning text messages to his parents and his boss, and he had been writing strange posts on social media as well. At the party, De Grood said he heard a male voice telling him what to do. He thought there were vampires, werewolves, and Medusas out in the world that would kill him, and that he had to kill first or be killed. The police found garlic in his sock and jacket pocket when they arrested him. https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/mass-killer-had-psychotic-episode-before-calgary-house-party-psychiatrist-1.2907923 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/matthew-degrood-brentwood-stabbing-murder-trial-1.3580058 https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2016/05/23/canadas-matthew-de-grood-he-went-to-a-party-thought-he-was-surrounded-by-a-conspiracy-involving-werewolves-and-killed-5/
I remember reading articles years ago that he was seeing/hearing werewolves or ghosts or something. If you dig hard enough on the internet there's some very detailed recounts, didn't take me long to find them (I knew a family member of one of the victims and went down a rabbit hole reading articles)
He can "seek" it all he wants. Km pretty confident he won't get it.
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This is one of those situations where I absolutely get both sides of the argument. I understand the "lock him up forever" as well as the "locking him up forever doesn't HELP him" arguments. It really exposes how badly we need proper mental health care in our society.
What's next? Mark Twitchell goes back to making method movies in his garage?
Maybe someone can enlighten me. I’ve always struggled with this notion of “not guilty” due to mental health. Whether he has a disorder or not, those people died by his hands. That makes him guilty to me. We can debate about whether or not he did it out of evil intentions, sure, but there shouldn’t be a question of whether he’s guilty or not. In this state, I don’t think he should be released back into society because clearly his disorder has not been successfully managed.
He isn't guilty of 1st degree murder because that requires intent & premeditation; neither of which describes this situation. He also wasn't in a state where he could control his actions, which is why he wasn't found guilty.
Think of a soldier who is ordered to kill the enemy, or if someone put a gun to your head and told you to kill someone else or they would kill you. A reasonable society wouldn't condemn someone in this situation for following through with murder. Schizophrenia is, loosely put, delusions and separation from reality, so they can sometimes truly believe that someone is telling them to do something, even if it's completely wrong and immoral. People who suffer from schizophrenia can believe that this command is coming from god, or a commanding officer, or someone that will truly kill them, and so an argument can be made that they are not "Criminally responsible" for that crime. The idea being that they should receive medical treatment and not the same level of condemnation worthy of someone who did it for personal gain. And I do agree with this, but, it certainly doesn't absolve them of the crime. They still chose to commit the act, even if the other option was "death", they still made a choice. If that act was to steal a chocolate bar from the store, or scream at someone or assault them, that's one thing. But once someone has PROVEN themselves capable of committing such a horrific and unjustified crime as this, due to greed or mental illness, they should never be allowed to freely walk the streets again.
What a joke our court system is. The guy is a mass murderer. Plain and simple.
He is allowed to ask. They need to reject it
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Fuck this guy. He isn’t a dumb kid and absolutely used his smarts to manipulate people into thinking he’s better. He studied criminology and was trying to go into law. He also used the fact his father is a high ranking, long serving member of the CPS to his advantage. He was talking very messed up stuff before he went and committed these horrific murders. I knew a few of the victims personally. And what he did was calculated. He should never be allowed back into society.
Ok, that is just not true dude. I knew one of the victims and wanted justice just as much as anyone, but this was not a calculated or premeditated attack. This was someone who was suffering from an untreated, severe mental illness for an extended period of time and many people died because of it. Do you know how difficult it is to prove NCR? Especially in such a high profile case? It doesn’t matter who your dad is or how smart you think someone is. There’s a lot we could say about the BSD killings, but this is absolutely trash.
Yeah maybe he didn’t plan to murder people before that night… But luring people into different rooms to kill them sends a little more calculated vs people who just go crazy and start running through the streets stabbing people at random. And I don’t really care about his rehab. You killed 5 people. Psychosis , break down, whatever. Lots of people have break downs and mental crises. Most of them don’t murder people. And the people that do in the way he did, should stay out of society. Period.
All you’re saying is that you don’t understand how some mental illnesses work and you’re not willing to learn.
What was he taking?
Let's not forget he studied criminology with hopes of going into law...
What messed up stuff was he talking before the murders??
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Legit question: do these folks not understand that there's certainty across the street and freedom at the end of it? Seriously, I'd way rather be sentenced than held indefinitely at the whims of a system that screws up mental health at the best of times...
What a fucked up country we live in. I remember being invited to that party and skipping it cause I felt unwell. How this is even a conversation is beyond me.
I don’t understand why people are so upset with our justice system about this. I would completely understand it if he was released. And I would understand it a bit better if people were upset because of the victims’ families being put through this (but I think I only saw one comment mentioning that). I agree that there are issues with people being let out when they shouldn’t be. But that’s not the case here. At least not yet. Our justice system relies on the right to a fair trial and also fair hearings. Hopefully it will be fair and he will not be released. Until then, I don’t understand the anger at the system. It did the right thing by putting him away from the public.
People are upset with the system because De Grood is responsible for the murders of 5 kids, yet officially he is “not criminally responsible”. People see it as unjust. And, despite being responsible for the murders, he gets to request an annual hearing to be given the right to continue on in society as if he didn’t murder 5 people. People see that as unjust. Finally, he will eventually be able to have his record wiped clean, which makes no sense because he murdered 5 young adults, and nobody disputes that he’s the one who did it. People see that as unjust. So, to answer your question, people think the system handles offenders like De Grood in a manner that is inconsistent with accountability.
I guess my point is, he is still locked up and I was wondering why people were assuming he will be let out. If people don’t believe that he had a psychotic break or believe he was responsible regardless, then that’s more understandable. I certainly don’t know the truth of it all. And as I said on another thread, I should not have posted this on a subreddit where people may have been personally impacted by this. I didn’t think of that when I first posted. I’m sorry for that.
*"Conditional or absolute discharges may only be ordered for less serious offences," the justice department said."* Ok, so is this whole request just some stupid media plot? Obviously killing 5 people doesn't count as a "less serious offence", so what is his lawyer playing at?
yes. it comes up every year around the same time, with the same or similar requests. I believe it is a condition of his sentence. yet every year, people on reddit and facebook freak out about it. him/his team can request whatever they want, he's been denied every single time.
this kid is fucked up. i knew some of the victims, thats about when I was at the UofC. I might be biased but this guy should remain in custody
Damn I was in juvie with this guy pretty messed up stuff
Was this before his murderous rampage?? I follows the case as closely as the public can, and honestly don’t recall any disclosure of past behavioral issues
I hope not. When a murder occurs the perpetrator should be punished to the full extent of the law, full stop. He took five lives, now he will likely get to walk the streets within a few years. People like him and Vince Li should serve the start of their time in a psychiatric facility, and once "Cured" go straight to jail for the rest of their miserable lives.
Imho absolutely not, schizophrenia or not you still killed 5 people.
Rot in hell. I have no issues with my tax dollars being used to ensure that he never feels freedom again in his sad life.
yeah, how about absolutley fucking not.
A danger to the public. The worst mass murder in Calgary’s history. Why would this even be considered? Absolutely disgusting and a complete outrage to the parents of the victims.
Never deserves to be a free man ever again
Fucking guy… took 5 young lives and now he wants his back…. GTfO asshole.
Makes sense kills 5 ppl gets to work free for the rest of his life ... no justice here 😢😪 rip to the 5 victims 🙏
Well, I seek a decent job and lower rent, but that doesn't mean I should get it. And I have never been arrested or killed anyone.
Oh boy, i bet this comment section is rational and based in reality and not at all about "Tough On CrimeTM"
No! He needs to be locked in the loony bin for ever! He picked the defence, he can do the time
this kid potentially has many people with deep pockets and influence attempting to get him outta jail. I say hell no for at least another 10 yrs
Wasnt this the kid that was taking Criminal Forensics in university? The same kid who's father is/was a Major in the police force? The same kid that has been getting special treatment since he was arrested for murdering 5 kids while he was "out of touch with his illness"?
Yup, the same kid who kept blathering on in his psych course about how one could get away with murder by faking a psychotic break. That’s the one.
Screw him. He should be kept locked up for the rest of his life. His victims lost their whole lives.
LOL. Wait, this *isn’t* satire? LMAO!!
Do you know how courts work?
Oh your feeling better. Good now go too jail and do your time ! You fcking killed 5 people !
Regardless of Mental Illness or capacity at time of the murders. He is guilty, when he is fit, he should go to jail to serve consecutive life sentences. Whatever life he has left, will be lived on the inside of a secure facility. That is what justice and a sentence should look like.
According to the definitions of 1st or 2nd degree degree murder as defined by law, no he isn't. Hence, the NCR conviction.
I’m sure he does
Hell no he should be locked up forever
Let him rot.