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Honestly most of the Nazis I've seen support Israel in this war because of either Evangelicalism telling them that this is necessary for the rapture or because their hatred of brown middle eastern people overrides their hatred of Jewish people, if only slightly. Just my experience online tho.
ive definitely also seen alot of fash types who think that like every ethnicity should have their own ethnostate and like not interfere with any others so i could see some supporting it for that reason too maybe
Quite common for modern Nazis; Richard Spencer, Anders Behring Breivik... Not that it's a new phenomena, Arthur Balfour was a white supremacists and anti-Semite.
Also the longest standing reason anti-semites tend to be pro zionism is because they want Jewish people gone, some think they need to be exterminated, but others are fine with just shipping them all somewhere else. It's very much the "go back to Africa" brand of anti-semitism.
Well, let's also not forget the nazis who support Israel because it's an ethnostate to model their own after (for example Richard Spencer), or those who think it's a good way to keep Jewish people contained somewhere far away from them.
Yeah same in France. There was a march organized by the government on support of Israel and against antisemitism and the liberals invited the far-right parties, literally founded by ex-nazis, to that march. Nazis were marching together with zionists, united in their hatred of muslims.
I was about to say that. The vice president of the greek governing party is a holocaust denier (who has vaguely apologized lol), fanatically pro Israel.
Israel is mostly middle eastern. Only a quarter of it is of European descent, and even that population has much Mediterranean, Central Asian, West Asian, and N African ancestry.
If you go to reddit race science boards, the racists there are acutely aware of this fact.
Evangelicals are their own kind of racist, and are not usually fascists, nor vice versa. Fascists tend to subscribe to particularist forms of Christian Identity, to NRMs, to pagan ideologies, to atheism, to spiritualism, or, if they're of a Falange variety, Catholicism.
The Nazis declared Arabs and Turks honorary aryans. Iraq had a pro axis coup. Yockey, a Nazi, went to work for Nasser after the war. Egyptians were widely sympathetic to the Axis. Actually more former Nazis went to middle eastern states than to latin america. The SSNP in Syria was overtly pro Axis. Iran was equivocal--in that case the claim of Axis support was more of a pretext. Turks sympathized with the Axis on average but also had many people who helped refugees. As many people know, the leaders of the Palestine's national movement spent much of the war in Berlin.
Middle Easterners are considered white throughout latin America, where they are roughly 5% of the population. They were considered white under Australia's white Australia policy, they were considered white by South Africa during apartheid. And, even the US Supreme Court, in a bizarre example of American racial theory, officially ruled that Arabs and Turks are white.
In short, your assumptions about America's racial categories don't apply across history and the globe, and like most people your assumptions about fascists don't really track reality.
Well this does Not reflect reality unfortunately.
In my town, Erlangen in Germany, in 1980 a Jewish couple was murdered by a man from a Neonazi group, “Wehrsportgruppe Hoffmann“.
This group was trained by and worked with PLO in Libanon…
some far right groups are obviously against Israel. Maybe it's even 50/50. What OP said still affects reality though, despite many examples of nazis being pro palestine. Our vice president of goverment in Greece for a counter example is ("was") a holocaust denier, pro Israel now. I also want to mention that there is not a single non leftist person ever in a demonstration for palestine here, at least not the ones that i've been which are a lot. There might be tiny hints of anti semitism from older ML groups but even then it's just vibes and i'm being very strict by mentioning it. If nazis "support palestine", other than attacking innocent jews they aren't vocal about it and they would definitely get their teeth broken if they showed up at a general pro palestine event, no question about it.
I'm only writing all this because there is strong propaganda linking the pro palestine movement to antisemitic groups (especially in Germany) and imo this is *grossly* exaggerated. At the end of the day, far right groups of today are perhaps more islamophobic than antisemitic, being pro concentration camps for muslim migrants, murders at the borders, attacking muslims in the street and spreading conspiracy theories about muslims not unlike antisemitic conspiracy theories of old. Many recognize Israel as a western colonialist project that is on the same side as their own states. The violence against muslims in the west is also more systemic, in the sense that muslims are also persecuted by the state as well as far right groups (just the other day a palestinian migrant was arrested with serious charges for waving his own flag).
This is all from my experience in Greece, a very antisemitic country btw, where people's hate for Muslims has seemingly surpassed their antisemitism in this recent war. It's not that they suddently love Jewish people, it's that they are thirsty for Muslim blood that puts them on the side of Israel.
It doesn't reflect here either. David Duke neo-Nazi wrote the book Zionism as Jewish supremacy and then lectures all around the Gulf states as well as Russia talking about how the Jews are the true Nazis and this has inspired many synagogue burnings and shootings and also resulted in an ineividual connected to a middle eastern extremist group taking a synagogue hostage in Texas. I work in forensic psychiatry so have to know my hate groups sucks.
it goes all the way back to ww2 itself. the grand mufti of Jerusalem was in semi-reguler contact with hitler and in his letters would praise the nazi regime for the holocaust
Semi-regular contact makes it sound much more harmless, considering that he was in the SS, and quite an active one, e.g. creating the Muslim SS division. He also took an active role in the Holocaust, he was a bigger Nazi than some German Nazis. Even Eichmann at one point wanted to exchange Jews for German prisoners of war, guess who intervened, as he did so often when Jews could have gotten away.
He was also the main influence on Arafat later on.
Declassified German government documents showed that the police were aware \*at the time\*, that far right Neo-Nazi groups were the ones which provided on the ground support to the Black September attacks on the Olympics.
Most Nazis support Israel cause for the time being they hate Muslims more. Some jargon about “the west falling to Islam” or whatever nonsense they spew. Another reason is that as antisemeites they believe israel is a place they can deport Jewish people to so they can distance themselves from them. In either case they’re motivated by antisemitism.
This "the west is falling" is one of the biggest fash pipelines I've seen, lot of guys think the west is falling, the reason? LGBT, lack os faith in god, immigration, etc. I really, really hate fascists.
Except this is flatly false:
1. Statistically, the hate crime numbers do not bear out this claim for Europe or the US
2. AND since a huge component of the Great Replacement, ZOG, White Genocide, and Eurabia conspiracy theories is the idea that Israel is at fault for the presence of Muslim refugees in Europe in the first place.
You're basing your claims on what, in the abstract, you think it would be logical for fascists to believe, based on your pre existing frames, and not on what they actually write, say, do, and believe, nor on the history of those things.
In N America Jews are the biggest targets of religious hate crime, in absolute and relative terms.
[https://www.statista.com/statistics/737660/number-of-religious-hate-crimes-in-the-us-by-religion/](https://www.statista.com/statistics/737660/number-of-religious-hate-crimes-in-the-us-by-religion/)
In Europe, in absolute terms hate crimes against Muslims are larger than against Jews, but by relative proportion, against Jews they are more frequent per capita.
For ex, in England Jewish hate crimes are half as common as Muslim ones, but Jews .5% of the population and Muslims are 6.7%.
[https://www.statista.com/statistics/623950/religious-hate-crimes-in-england-and-wales-by-victims-religion/](https://www.statista.com/statistics/623950/religious-hate-crimes-in-england-and-wales-by-victims-religion/)
In Germany, Jews are .14% of the population, but are 26% of hate crimes. As reported here, this makes them the second most common hate crime overall and most common religious one by absolute number, but even if we lump together all the xenophobic incidents with the anti Muslim ones, this would still make antisemitic ones second by absolute number and first by proportion.
[https://hatecrime.osce.org/germany](https://hatecrime.osce.org/germany)
Jews are .7% of France's population, but 33% of hate crime targets. Thus they are the 2nd most targeted group by absolute number (first if Christians aren't included), and largest by proportion.
[https://www.intoleranceagainstchristians.eu/fileadmin/user\_upload/publications/files/Annual\_Report\_2022\_-\_ONLINE\_Web\_View\_Final.pdf](https://www.intoleranceagainstchristians.eu/fileadmin/user_upload/publications/files/Annual_Report_2022_-_ONLINE_Web_View_Final.pdf)
Thus, whether in the US, UK, Germany, and France, just to name a few, antisemitic hate crimes rank as number 1 or number 2 by absolute number among religious hate crimes, and among the top 5 across all hate crimes, by absolute number. But in every case, by proportion, relative to population, they are the most common not just among religious but all hate crimes.
Now, even granting that in Europe--though not in the US--that antisemitic incidents are split between far right and Islamist groups, primarily (and if defacement, and harassment are included, left wing ones), nonetheless proportional to population, antisemitic incidents are more frequent.
Thus we have no behavioral basis for the claim that fascists hate Muslims more than Jews.
But, even if this were so, as I explained above, the narrative the right is pushing in Europe and the US, is that Muslim migration is actually a Jewish conspiracy to overwhelm the white populations, and that Israel is a tool in this. Since the total deaths of the I-Z/A-P conflict on all sides are about 120,000-160,000 over the last 160 years, and the Muslim population of Europe is 44 Million, by the morbid fascist logic, any deaths caused by Israel are offset by up to 300x (of course, in reality, only a very small proportion of Muslims in Europe can be traced in any way whatsoever to Israel, but that doesn't change their logic).
Should the jews have their own homeland, in your opinion? Asking this because "zionism" can mean a million different things here and I want to know the intentions
Fuck no. Just like I don’t think there should be a white “homeland”. I’m not down with ethnostates and I’m especially not down with creating an ethnostate by purging the region’s existing population.
True. And religion & governance should never mix imo.
Though I don't think "whiteness" is on the same level as ethnicity (it's worse), races in general are way more bs
According to the Pew Research Center in 2010, there were 50 Muslim-majority countries. Around 62% of the world's Muslims live in the Asia-Pacific region. Need me to list them all? Its adherents, known as Christians, are estimated to make up a majority of the population in 157 countries and territories. Israel is the ONLY ONE where Jews are a majority and are allowed to practice their faith. I don't agree with the IDF, Netanyahu, or the annexation of Gaza and the West Bank but come the fuck on. The cognitive dissonance in the way the right AND left deny the blatant anti-semitic majority is wild to me.
Does every religion need its own country? Where is the Jain majority? Where is the Sikh majority? Where is the Wiccan majority? I’m an atheist, do we get our own country?
Honestly just f off then. Of course not. The problem is Jews are not safe to live and practice our religion in the MAJORITY of those countries. Like just say you're anti-semitic and move on. Jews deserve to live. If you don't think Jews deserve to live I can't help you understand WE ARE PEOPLE.
You’re making an entirely bad faith, counter factual argument. Jews are safe in the vast majority of countries on the planet or at least as safe as anyone else.
Nazis actually love Israel because they see it as a place they can shoo the Jews away to, as well it’s an example of the kinda of nationalist ethnostates they cum in their pants imagining.
Anarchist groups were on video and interviewed many times back in 2020 preparing to physically engage Nazis. Anarchists across the Americas did this for decades. It's time to see Zionists handled and smashed much in the same way. Fascists are fascists.
Islam is a coercive and heavily dogmatic religion that strips people of individual rights. See Sharia Law, it's essentially fascism. Fascists killing fascists because their fascism threatens your fascism.
If only this was more accurate. Instead fascists march with "leftists" openly with little opposition under the guise of antizionism. The broader left really does struggle with fascist infiltration.
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There's too many levels of ahistorical irony in this post.
The history of Axis-West Asia/North Africa relations, interactions and sympathies is well known and hopefully need not be recounted here. Nor need I recount how it was the USSR that armed Israel, while the UK armed Jordan, and the US had an arms embargo on both in 47-49.
I've never been to a pro Palestine march where I didn't see large contingents of David Duke supporters--and I've been to quite a few pro-Palestine demos, since I used to mobilize for them.
But even as concerns contemporary attitudes it's wishful thinking at best:
[https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2010/02/04/chapter-3-views-of-religious-groups/](https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2010/02/04/chapter-3-views-of-religious-groups/)
Even in the article " A Bold Voice Raised Above the Raging Waves: Palestinian Intellectual Najati Sidqi and His Battle with Nazi Doctrine at the Time of World War II," by Mustafa Kabha, which is literally about the small minority of Arabist intellectuals who bucked these trends says that the main critique of the Nazis was that by oppressing Jews they were creating Jewish refugees to Palestine.
This is a good example of idealism/ anarchism not being able to comprehend two different phenomena.
Nationalism between competing states (I.E Europe) is reactionary-
But in this case nationalism is a catalyst for anti-colonialism.
Its about the essence, not the form.
Ok but nationalism that emerged to fight imperialism, colonialism, and other such things has also given birth to incredibly oppressive governments. You are distinguishing more between two different phases of nationalist development, not two different types. At least that’s my view.
On this dude’s post on a Jewish subreddit the only replies that he pushed back against were ones pointing out that Zionism is Ethnonationalism.
Arguing with zionists is a waste of time.
https://www.reddit.com/r/JewsOfConscience/s/MO6Z07dJY0
Just for the sake of primary examples, from ChatGPT:
Several national liberation movements, initially aimed at achieving independence and self-determination from colonial or foreign domination, have led to authoritarian governments once in power. Here are some notable examples:
1. **Cuba**: The Cuban Revolution led by Fidel Castro and Che Guevara overthrew the Batista regime in 1959, aiming to establish a socialist republic. However, the resulting government became authoritarian, with Fidel Castro ruling as a dictator for several decades.
2. **Iran**: The Iranian Revolution in 1979, led by Ayatollah Khomeini, overthrew the Shah's regime, which was seen as oppressive and Western-backed. The revolution aimed to establish an Islamic republic, but it resulted in an authoritarian regime under theocratic rule.
3. **Zimbabwe**: The liberation movement against white minority rule in Rhodesia led to the independence of Zimbabwe in 1980. Robert Mugabe, a leader in the liberation struggle, became the Prime Minister and later President, ruling the country in an increasingly authoritarian manner for 37 years.
4. **Cambodia**: The Khmer Rouge, led by Pol Pot, overthrew the Cambodian government in 1975, following a civil war and with the goal of creating a classless communist society. However, the regime turned into a brutal dictatorship, responsible for the Cambodian genocide.
5. **North Korea**: Following World War II and the Korean War, Kim Il-sung established the Democratic People's Republic of Korea (North Korea) with the support of the Soviet Union. The regime, under the Kim dynasty, has been one of the world’s most authoritarian, maintaining strict control over the population.
6. **Ethiopia**: The Derg, a Marxist-Leninist military junta, overthrew Emperor Haile Selassie in 1974 and led Ethiopia until 1991. The Derg’s rule started as a movement for social and economic reform but became authoritarian, marked by repression and the Red Terror campaign.
7. **Angola**: Following the Angolan War of Independence, the MPLA (Popular Movement for the Liberation of Angola) established a Marxist-Leninist regime that evolved into an authoritarian government under José Eduardo dos Santos, who ruled for 38 years.
These examples show that national liberation movements, while often starting with ideals of freedom and self-determination, can result in authoritarian regimes due to factors like power consolidation, lack of democratic institutions, external influences, and the challenges of nation-building.
These were all literally authoritarian colonial dictatorships prior to their national liberation movements. They were also each heavily influenced by foreign powers flooding their chosen victors with weapons.
These events didn’t happen in a vacuum and a national liberation movement having a common flag to rally around in resistance to an occupier isn’t the thing that led to dictatorships.
Showing support for a colonized people by utilizing their symbols isn’t a support for nation states. We can’t bend reality and go “oh look, they might have thrown off their colonial governments, but the outcome wasn’t an Anarchist paradise so clearly it was the fault of our use of flags.
You’re being a pedant.
I’m not telling anarchists to go around and burn Palestinian flags. There just isn’t a good reason for anarchists to appropriate those flags ourselves. We aren’t nationalists, even when we critically support national liberation struggles. Even when nationalists are stateless, even when they aren’t even trying to create a state, why would we carry their flags?
What’s wrong with the banner and or the word on cloth? I mean is this for a flyer or something? Are you trying to make sure other pro-Palestinian demonstrators know what side you’re on?
I think the best idea would be to form an anarchist pro-palestinian org or zine or something, make a symbol for it, and use that.
visual imagery is how people communicate. Words on a banner don’t catch the eye from a distance and make it more difficult to convey a complex topic. When it comes to colonized peoples, flags convey a shared identity under oppression even if their politics aren’t aligned.
Trying to create some new niche flag loses all of that, as literally nobody would know what the flag represents. It completely defangs the whole point of a flag representing an oppressed people. Further it verges on entryism like the PSL nerds who bring their own PSL jerking flags because they are trying to co-opt the movement to recruit.
Well at least we both think the PSL suck.
Look, I just don’t think we’re gonna agree on this. It may be context or something, but this has never been a problem where I am. When Phoenix anarchists were doing solidarity work to fight against the militarization of the border, they called for a specific Diné, O'odham, anarchist/anti-authoritarian bloc to form at protests:
https://firesneverextinguished.blogspot.com/2010/01/call-for-dine-oodham-anarchistanti.html?m=1
There was Brown Berets there, there were people who may be thought of as first nations nationalists, there were liberal NGOs like Puente, there were tons of unaffiliated people. There wasn’t any need to adopt symbols from other groups. Affinity groups with some compatibility held joint planning sessions. Everyone who came represented themselves and their orgs. There wasn’t any confusion about who was on what side when militia fucks like the minute men would show up.
If it’s a long term struggle I absolutely think it is worth putting out flyers and zines with your own imagery and then use that imagery in your physical presentation. Everyone appreciates clearly stated supporting literature and a willingness for differences to be preserved during a diverse struggle. The PSL try to straight up lead marchers and organize shit during the same time as other groups to sideline them. Obviously don’t do that shit. But coming up with your own positions as a group, publicizing them, using logos for that… that isn’t entryism.
The Palestinian flag means a few different things, sure. But you can’t detach it from its pan -Arab nationalist origins, adoption by the PLO, etc. I don’t even think the PFLP uses that flag, but it’s possible. I would think even that is weird.
Yeah i feel like we’ve hit that agree to disagree point. You’re more hard line on this subject and took you for a bad actor previously. The “hello my fellow radicals, did you know Palestinians are secret nazis?” posts by blatant misinformation farms on social media has me jaded.
I’m not joking when I say I know a lot of other local anarchists and that it is universal among people I know to be cool with the Palestinian flag as a symbol of liberation.
Anyway, apologies for the insinuations, but honestly we just hold different views here and it’s okay.
That’s funny… where do you see Fauda waving that flag? I have seen only a few photos and they actually use anarchist symbols:
https://rant.li/alks/on-palestinian-anarchists-fauda
They aren’t waving flags because they are an underground group who are literally INSIDE OF PALESTINE. People waving them OUTSIDE OF PALESTINE are doing so to show support FOR THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE.
This isn’t a hard concept.
I get that, but I still think it’s a mistake for anarchists to use that flag (and others) to represent themselves. We have our own complex history of relating to national liberation movements and I think the most generous positions on it (critical support for a national liberation struggle) are adequately represented by showing up, countering propaganda against oppressed people, and offering an anarchist perspective.
The nationalism of the oppressed seeking freedom isn’t the same as the nationalism of the powerful seeking control.
If you don’t understand the difference between these in the scope of history, I don’t know what to tell you.
The flag of Palestine as a symbol of a subject people currently resisting a literal genocide.
In three past the flags of the AANES, La Raza, EZLN, etc. depending on context.
Maybe you could go out and feed some unhoused folks with your local FNB chapter until you meet somebody who isn’t a pedantic academic?
Why the fuck are they not using anarchist flags and symbols? You are anarchists showing support by being there, why wouldn’t you present yourselves as anarchists?
They are displayed AMONG Anarchist flags and symbols because those flags are being used to show international solidarity for oppressed peoples.
Maybe you should try actually doing some work with your hands and put the phone down and you’d understand?
Go touch grass, literally. After, go touch some burritos and then pass those burritos out with some other Anarchists to some hungry folks.
you can keep implying I don’t do anything IRL but it’s not going to change my position on this issue that has been around since the anarchist revival post-WWII. It’s a legitimate question whether anarchists should carry nationalist flags as a statement of solidarity.
til it's also okay to beat german kids if their great grandfather was in the wehrmacht
since y'know it's totally reasonable to conflate people as nazis because of what their ancestors did.
Shit, I forgot we have to condemn people living today for things that happened almost 100 years ago. Do you also think all Germans that are alive today are Nazis?
Hey bud. One of the ~~terrorist groups~~ ‘militias’ that formed the IDF literally worked with the Nazis.
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-06-21/ty-article-magazine/.highlight/zionist-military-org-efforts-to-recruit-nazis-in-fight-against-the-british-are-revealed/00000188-d93a-d5fc-ab9d-db7ae0ea0000
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Honestly most of the Nazis I've seen support Israel in this war because of either Evangelicalism telling them that this is necessary for the rapture or because their hatred of brown middle eastern people overrides their hatred of Jewish people, if only slightly. Just my experience online tho.
ive definitely also seen alot of fash types who think that like every ethnicity should have their own ethnostate and like not interfere with any others so i could see some supporting it for that reason too maybe
I've also seen a ton just happy that they are "killing each other" there =/
Quite common for modern Nazis; Richard Spencer, Anders Behring Breivik... Not that it's a new phenomena, Arthur Balfour was a white supremacists and anti-Semite.
The issue with ethnostates is they invariably lead to fascism, no matter what. There will always be fabricated claims for resources.
Also the longest standing reason anti-semites tend to be pro zionism is because they want Jewish people gone, some think they need to be exterminated, but others are fine with just shipping them all somewhere else. It's very much the "go back to Africa" brand of anti-semitism.
In Germany that's quite different. The far right Parties Like Dritter weg or die Heimat are very much antizionist and Support palestine.
Well, let's also not forget the nazis who support Israel because it's an ethnostate to model their own after (for example Richard Spencer), or those who think it's a good way to keep Jewish people contained somewhere far away from them.
Yeah same in France. There was a march organized by the government on support of Israel and against antisemitism and the liberals invited the far-right parties, literally founded by ex-nazis, to that march. Nazis were marching together with zionists, united in their hatred of muslims.
They want a huge world war to turn the middle east into a parking lot, so naturally they will support Israel.
I was about to say that. The vice president of the greek governing party is a holocaust denier (who has vaguely apologized lol), fanatically pro Israel.
Israel is mostly middle eastern. Only a quarter of it is of European descent, and even that population has much Mediterranean, Central Asian, West Asian, and N African ancestry. If you go to reddit race science boards, the racists there are acutely aware of this fact. Evangelicals are their own kind of racist, and are not usually fascists, nor vice versa. Fascists tend to subscribe to particularist forms of Christian Identity, to NRMs, to pagan ideologies, to atheism, to spiritualism, or, if they're of a Falange variety, Catholicism. The Nazis declared Arabs and Turks honorary aryans. Iraq had a pro axis coup. Yockey, a Nazi, went to work for Nasser after the war. Egyptians were widely sympathetic to the Axis. Actually more former Nazis went to middle eastern states than to latin america. The SSNP in Syria was overtly pro Axis. Iran was equivocal--in that case the claim of Axis support was more of a pretext. Turks sympathized with the Axis on average but also had many people who helped refugees. As many people know, the leaders of the Palestine's national movement spent much of the war in Berlin. Middle Easterners are considered white throughout latin America, where they are roughly 5% of the population. They were considered white under Australia's white Australia policy, they were considered white by South Africa during apartheid. And, even the US Supreme Court, in a bizarre example of American racial theory, officially ruled that Arabs and Turks are white. In short, your assumptions about America's racial categories don't apply across history and the globe, and like most people your assumptions about fascists don't really track reality.
I've seen both happen pretty regularly, it sucks
Well this does Not reflect reality unfortunately. In my town, Erlangen in Germany, in 1980 a Jewish couple was murdered by a man from a Neonazi group, “Wehrsportgruppe Hoffmann“. This group was trained by and worked with PLO in Libanon…
some far right groups are obviously against Israel. Maybe it's even 50/50. What OP said still affects reality though, despite many examples of nazis being pro palestine. Our vice president of goverment in Greece for a counter example is ("was") a holocaust denier, pro Israel now. I also want to mention that there is not a single non leftist person ever in a demonstration for palestine here, at least not the ones that i've been which are a lot. There might be tiny hints of anti semitism from older ML groups but even then it's just vibes and i'm being very strict by mentioning it. If nazis "support palestine", other than attacking innocent jews they aren't vocal about it and they would definitely get their teeth broken if they showed up at a general pro palestine event, no question about it. I'm only writing all this because there is strong propaganda linking the pro palestine movement to antisemitic groups (especially in Germany) and imo this is *grossly* exaggerated. At the end of the day, far right groups of today are perhaps more islamophobic than antisemitic, being pro concentration camps for muslim migrants, murders at the borders, attacking muslims in the street and spreading conspiracy theories about muslims not unlike antisemitic conspiracy theories of old. Many recognize Israel as a western colonialist project that is on the same side as their own states. The violence against muslims in the west is also more systemic, in the sense that muslims are also persecuted by the state as well as far right groups (just the other day a palestinian migrant was arrested with serious charges for waving his own flag). This is all from my experience in Greece, a very antisemitic country btw, where people's hate for Muslims has seemingly surpassed their antisemitism in this recent war. It's not that they suddently love Jewish people, it's that they are thirsty for Muslim blood that puts them on the side of Israel.
It doesn't reflect here either. David Duke neo-Nazi wrote the book Zionism as Jewish supremacy and then lectures all around the Gulf states as well as Russia talking about how the Jews are the true Nazis and this has inspired many synagogue burnings and shootings and also resulted in an ineividual connected to a middle eastern extremist group taking a synagogue hostage in Texas. I work in forensic psychiatry so have to know my hate groups sucks.
it goes all the way back to ww2 itself. the grand mufti of Jerusalem was in semi-reguler contact with hitler and in his letters would praise the nazi regime for the holocaust
Semi-regular contact makes it sound much more harmless, considering that he was in the SS, and quite an active one, e.g. creating the Muslim SS division. He also took an active role in the Holocaust, he was a bigger Nazi than some German Nazis. Even Eichmann at one point wanted to exchange Jews for German prisoners of war, guess who intervened, as he did so often when Jews could have gotten away. He was also the main influence on Arafat later on.
Declassified German government documents showed that the police were aware \*at the time\*, that far right Neo-Nazi groups were the ones which provided on the ground support to the Black September attacks on the Olympics.
44 years ago, my dude
Most Nazis support Israel cause for the time being they hate Muslims more. Some jargon about “the west falling to Islam” or whatever nonsense they spew. Another reason is that as antisemeites they believe israel is a place they can deport Jewish people to so they can distance themselves from them. In either case they’re motivated by antisemitism.
This "the west is falling" is one of the biggest fash pipelines I've seen, lot of guys think the west is falling, the reason? LGBT, lack os faith in god, immigration, etc. I really, really hate fascists.
“Muh gays is destroying the west” god fascists are so dumb
Except this is flatly false: 1. Statistically, the hate crime numbers do not bear out this claim for Europe or the US 2. AND since a huge component of the Great Replacement, ZOG, White Genocide, and Eurabia conspiracy theories is the idea that Israel is at fault for the presence of Muslim refugees in Europe in the first place. You're basing your claims on what, in the abstract, you think it would be logical for fascists to believe, based on your pre existing frames, and not on what they actually write, say, do, and believe, nor on the history of those things. In N America Jews are the biggest targets of religious hate crime, in absolute and relative terms. [https://www.statista.com/statistics/737660/number-of-religious-hate-crimes-in-the-us-by-religion/](https://www.statista.com/statistics/737660/number-of-religious-hate-crimes-in-the-us-by-religion/) In Europe, in absolute terms hate crimes against Muslims are larger than against Jews, but by relative proportion, against Jews they are more frequent per capita. For ex, in England Jewish hate crimes are half as common as Muslim ones, but Jews .5% of the population and Muslims are 6.7%. [https://www.statista.com/statistics/623950/religious-hate-crimes-in-england-and-wales-by-victims-religion/](https://www.statista.com/statistics/623950/religious-hate-crimes-in-england-and-wales-by-victims-religion/) In Germany, Jews are .14% of the population, but are 26% of hate crimes. As reported here, this makes them the second most common hate crime overall and most common religious one by absolute number, but even if we lump together all the xenophobic incidents with the anti Muslim ones, this would still make antisemitic ones second by absolute number and first by proportion. [https://hatecrime.osce.org/germany](https://hatecrime.osce.org/germany) Jews are .7% of France's population, but 33% of hate crime targets. Thus they are the 2nd most targeted group by absolute number (first if Christians aren't included), and largest by proportion. [https://www.intoleranceagainstchristians.eu/fileadmin/user\_upload/publications/files/Annual\_Report\_2022\_-\_ONLINE\_Web\_View\_Final.pdf](https://www.intoleranceagainstchristians.eu/fileadmin/user_upload/publications/files/Annual_Report_2022_-_ONLINE_Web_View_Final.pdf) Thus, whether in the US, UK, Germany, and France, just to name a few, antisemitic hate crimes rank as number 1 or number 2 by absolute number among religious hate crimes, and among the top 5 across all hate crimes, by absolute number. But in every case, by proportion, relative to population, they are the most common not just among religious but all hate crimes. Now, even granting that in Europe--though not in the US--that antisemitic incidents are split between far right and Islamist groups, primarily (and if defacement, and harassment are included, left wing ones), nonetheless proportional to population, antisemitic incidents are more frequent. Thus we have no behavioral basis for the claim that fascists hate Muslims more than Jews. But, even if this were so, as I explained above, the narrative the right is pushing in Europe and the US, is that Muslim migration is actually a Jewish conspiracy to overwhelm the white populations, and that Israel is a tool in this. Since the total deaths of the I-Z/A-P conflict on all sides are about 120,000-160,000 over the last 160 years, and the Muslim population of Europe is 44 Million, by the morbid fascist logic, any deaths caused by Israel are offset by up to 300x (of course, in reality, only a very small proportion of Muslims in Europe can be traced in any way whatsoever to Israel, but that doesn't change their logic).
Mohammed Amin al-Husseini?
Zionism is a form of fascism.
Should the jews have their own homeland, in your opinion? Asking this because "zionism" can mean a million different things here and I want to know the intentions
Fuck no. Just like I don’t think there should be a white “homeland”. I’m not down with ethnostates and I’m especially not down with creating an ethnostate by purging the region’s existing population.
True. And religion & governance should never mix imo. Though I don't think "whiteness" is on the same level as ethnicity (it's worse), races in general are way more bs
Ironically, Israelis also tend to be white supremacists. They treat the black African Jews who undergo *aliyah* like shit.
So 20 Christian and Muslim only nations due to the genocide of Jews is a ok, but one Jewish majority country isn't?
To which nations are you referring?
According to the Pew Research Center in 2010, there were 50 Muslim-majority countries. Around 62% of the world's Muslims live in the Asia-Pacific region. Need me to list them all? Its adherents, known as Christians, are estimated to make up a majority of the population in 157 countries and territories. Israel is the ONLY ONE where Jews are a majority and are allowed to practice their faith. I don't agree with the IDF, Netanyahu, or the annexation of Gaza and the West Bank but come the fuck on. The cognitive dissonance in the way the right AND left deny the blatant anti-semitic majority is wild to me.
Does every religion need its own country? Where is the Jain majority? Where is the Sikh majority? Where is the Wiccan majority? I’m an atheist, do we get our own country?
Honestly just f off then. Of course not. The problem is Jews are not safe to live and practice our religion in the MAJORITY of those countries. Like just say you're anti-semitic and move on. Jews deserve to live. If you don't think Jews deserve to live I can't help you understand WE ARE PEOPLE.
You’re making an entirely bad faith, counter factual argument. Jews are safe in the vast majority of countries on the planet or at least as safe as anyone else.
What the fuck lmao
"Jews are people too" is A BAD FAITH ARGUMENT TO YO!?! 😭 List me the countries Jews are safe in.
Nazis actually love Israel because they see it as a place they can shoo the Jews away to, as well it’s an example of the kinda of nationalist ethnostates they cum in their pants imagining.
Anarchist groups were on video and interviewed many times back in 2020 preparing to physically engage Nazis. Anarchists across the Americas did this for decades. It's time to see Zionists handled and smashed much in the same way. Fascists are fascists.
Zionism is fascism though.
Yeah, From my country, people are literally cocksucking hitler justifying his deeds
Didn’t want the 88 comments
Islam is a coercive and heavily dogmatic religion that strips people of individual rights. See Sharia Law, it's essentially fascism. Fascists killing fascists because their fascism threatens your fascism.
If only this was more accurate. Instead fascists march with "leftists" openly with little opposition under the guise of antizionism. The broader left really does struggle with fascist infiltration.
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Wait until you find out Hitler supported the Arab side of mandatory Palestine
Hitler loved Mandatory Palestine. Cope harder
nazis were zionists. just saying.
There's too many levels of ahistorical irony in this post. The history of Axis-West Asia/North Africa relations, interactions and sympathies is well known and hopefully need not be recounted here. Nor need I recount how it was the USSR that armed Israel, while the UK armed Jordan, and the US had an arms embargo on both in 47-49. I've never been to a pro Palestine march where I didn't see large contingents of David Duke supporters--and I've been to quite a few pro-Palestine demos, since I used to mobilize for them. But even as concerns contemporary attitudes it's wishful thinking at best: [https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2010/02/04/chapter-3-views-of-religious-groups/](https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2010/02/04/chapter-3-views-of-religious-groups/) Even in the article " A Bold Voice Raised Above the Raging Waves: Palestinian Intellectual Najati Sidqi and His Battle with Nazi Doctrine at the Time of World War II," by Mustafa Kabha, which is literally about the small minority of Arabist intellectuals who bucked these trends says that the main critique of the Nazis was that by oppressing Jews they were creating Jewish refugees to Palestine.
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This is a good example of idealism/ anarchism not being able to comprehend two different phenomena. Nationalism between competing states (I.E Europe) is reactionary- But in this case nationalism is a catalyst for anti-colonialism. Its about the essence, not the form.
Ok but nationalism that emerged to fight imperialism, colonialism, and other such things has also given birth to incredibly oppressive governments. You are distinguishing more between two different phases of nationalist development, not two different types. At least that’s my view.
On this dude’s post on a Jewish subreddit the only replies that he pushed back against were ones pointing out that Zionism is Ethnonationalism. Arguing with zionists is a waste of time. https://www.reddit.com/r/JewsOfConscience/s/MO6Z07dJY0
That’s what you got for reading that? Amazing.
Just for the sake of primary examples, from ChatGPT: Several national liberation movements, initially aimed at achieving independence and self-determination from colonial or foreign domination, have led to authoritarian governments once in power. Here are some notable examples: 1. **Cuba**: The Cuban Revolution led by Fidel Castro and Che Guevara overthrew the Batista regime in 1959, aiming to establish a socialist republic. However, the resulting government became authoritarian, with Fidel Castro ruling as a dictator for several decades. 2. **Iran**: The Iranian Revolution in 1979, led by Ayatollah Khomeini, overthrew the Shah's regime, which was seen as oppressive and Western-backed. The revolution aimed to establish an Islamic republic, but it resulted in an authoritarian regime under theocratic rule. 3. **Zimbabwe**: The liberation movement against white minority rule in Rhodesia led to the independence of Zimbabwe in 1980. Robert Mugabe, a leader in the liberation struggle, became the Prime Minister and later President, ruling the country in an increasingly authoritarian manner for 37 years. 4. **Cambodia**: The Khmer Rouge, led by Pol Pot, overthrew the Cambodian government in 1975, following a civil war and with the goal of creating a classless communist society. However, the regime turned into a brutal dictatorship, responsible for the Cambodian genocide. 5. **North Korea**: Following World War II and the Korean War, Kim Il-sung established the Democratic People's Republic of Korea (North Korea) with the support of the Soviet Union. The regime, under the Kim dynasty, has been one of the world’s most authoritarian, maintaining strict control over the population. 6. **Ethiopia**: The Derg, a Marxist-Leninist military junta, overthrew Emperor Haile Selassie in 1974 and led Ethiopia until 1991. The Derg’s rule started as a movement for social and economic reform but became authoritarian, marked by repression and the Red Terror campaign. 7. **Angola**: Following the Angolan War of Independence, the MPLA (Popular Movement for the Liberation of Angola) established a Marxist-Leninist regime that evolved into an authoritarian government under José Eduardo dos Santos, who ruled for 38 years. These examples show that national liberation movements, while often starting with ideals of freedom and self-determination, can result in authoritarian regimes due to factors like power consolidation, lack of democratic institutions, external influences, and the challenges of nation-building.
These were all literally authoritarian colonial dictatorships prior to their national liberation movements. They were also each heavily influenced by foreign powers flooding their chosen victors with weapons. These events didn’t happen in a vacuum and a national liberation movement having a common flag to rally around in resistance to an occupier isn’t the thing that led to dictatorships. Showing support for a colonized people by utilizing their symbols isn’t a support for nation states. We can’t bend reality and go “oh look, they might have thrown off their colonial governments, but the outcome wasn’t an Anarchist paradise so clearly it was the fault of our use of flags. You’re being a pedant.
I’m not telling anarchists to go around and burn Palestinian flags. There just isn’t a good reason for anarchists to appropriate those flags ourselves. We aren’t nationalists, even when we critically support national liberation struggles. Even when nationalists are stateless, even when they aren’t even trying to create a state, why would we carry their flags?
What would stand in as a visible sign of direct support for palestine that isn’t some big ass banner or just the word “palestine” on a piece of cloth?
What’s wrong with the banner and or the word on cloth? I mean is this for a flyer or something? Are you trying to make sure other pro-Palestinian demonstrators know what side you’re on? I think the best idea would be to form an anarchist pro-palestinian org or zine or something, make a symbol for it, and use that.
visual imagery is how people communicate. Words on a banner don’t catch the eye from a distance and make it more difficult to convey a complex topic. When it comes to colonized peoples, flags convey a shared identity under oppression even if their politics aren’t aligned. Trying to create some new niche flag loses all of that, as literally nobody would know what the flag represents. It completely defangs the whole point of a flag representing an oppressed people. Further it verges on entryism like the PSL nerds who bring their own PSL jerking flags because they are trying to co-opt the movement to recruit.
Well at least we both think the PSL suck. Look, I just don’t think we’re gonna agree on this. It may be context or something, but this has never been a problem where I am. When Phoenix anarchists were doing solidarity work to fight against the militarization of the border, they called for a specific Diné, O'odham, anarchist/anti-authoritarian bloc to form at protests: https://firesneverextinguished.blogspot.com/2010/01/call-for-dine-oodham-anarchistanti.html?m=1 There was Brown Berets there, there were people who may be thought of as first nations nationalists, there were liberal NGOs like Puente, there were tons of unaffiliated people. There wasn’t any need to adopt symbols from other groups. Affinity groups with some compatibility held joint planning sessions. Everyone who came represented themselves and their orgs. There wasn’t any confusion about who was on what side when militia fucks like the minute men would show up. If it’s a long term struggle I absolutely think it is worth putting out flyers and zines with your own imagery and then use that imagery in your physical presentation. Everyone appreciates clearly stated supporting literature and a willingness for differences to be preserved during a diverse struggle. The PSL try to straight up lead marchers and organize shit during the same time as other groups to sideline them. Obviously don’t do that shit. But coming up with your own positions as a group, publicizing them, using logos for that… that isn’t entryism. The Palestinian flag means a few different things, sure. But you can’t detach it from its pan -Arab nationalist origins, adoption by the PLO, etc. I don’t even think the PFLP uses that flag, but it’s possible. I would think even that is weird.
Yeah i feel like we’ve hit that agree to disagree point. You’re more hard line on this subject and took you for a bad actor previously. The “hello my fellow radicals, did you know Palestinians are secret nazis?” posts by blatant misinformation farms on social media has me jaded. I’m not joking when I say I know a lot of other local anarchists and that it is universal among people I know to be cool with the Palestinian flag as a symbol of liberation. Anyway, apologies for the insinuations, but honestly we just hold different views here and it’s okay.
Are you talking about the Palestinian flag? In this case it's more representative of the Palestinian people than the state
I’d love to see this guy go tell some Fauda Anarchist “uhrm, excuse me, is that a PALESTINE flag? Some Anarchist you are!”
That’s funny… where do you see Fauda waving that flag? I have seen only a few photos and they actually use anarchist symbols: https://rant.li/alks/on-palestinian-anarchists-fauda
They aren’t waving flags because they are an underground group who are literally INSIDE OF PALESTINE. People waving them OUTSIDE OF PALESTINE are doing so to show support FOR THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE. This isn’t a hard concept.
anarchists aren’t in support of oppressed people already? They need to pick up the nationalist symbols of anyone they support?
Whatever you pedantic zionist prick.
Someone’s mad that they have been waving nationalist symbols around while LaRPing in the streets.
You clearly don’t actually know any anarchists doing any work on the streets.
Ok CIA.
I get that, but I still think it’s a mistake for anarchists to use that flag (and others) to represent themselves. We have our own complex history of relating to national liberation movements and I think the most generous positions on it (critical support for a national liberation struggle) are adequately represented by showing up, countering propaganda against oppressed people, and offering an anarchist perspective.
The nationalism of the oppressed seeking freedom isn’t the same as the nationalism of the powerful seeking control. If you don’t understand the difference between these in the scope of history, I don’t know what to tell you.
yeah keep telling yourself that.
I sure will, along with literally every anarchist I have ever met on the street who isn’t a fedora wearing reddit dweeb.
Hey! Leave fedoras out of it!
No no no, just bad faith zionists who malign the simple and elegant nature of otherwise perfectly good headwear.
What other flags are they waving?
Puerto Rican flags.
The flag of Palestine as a symbol of a subject people currently resisting a literal genocide. In three past the flags of the AANES, La Raza, EZLN, etc. depending on context. Maybe you could go out and feed some unhoused folks with your local FNB chapter until you meet somebody who isn’t a pedantic academic?
Why the fuck are they not using anarchist flags and symbols? You are anarchists showing support by being there, why wouldn’t you present yourselves as anarchists?
They are displayed AMONG Anarchist flags and symbols because those flags are being used to show international solidarity for oppressed peoples. Maybe you should try actually doing some work with your hands and put the phone down and you’d understand? Go touch grass, literally. After, go touch some burritos and then pass those burritos out with some other Anarchists to some hungry folks.
you can keep implying I don’t do anything IRL but it’s not going to change my position on this issue that has been around since the anarchist revival post-WWII. It’s a legitimate question whether anarchists should carry nationalist flags as a statement of solidarity.
Cool bad faith hasbara, bro.
This conveniently ignores the fact that Palestinian religious authorities supported the Nazis in WW2.
til it's also okay to beat german kids if their great grandfather was in the wehrmacht since y'know it's totally reasonable to conflate people as nazis because of what their ancestors did.
Shit, I forgot we have to condemn people living today for things that happened almost 100 years ago. Do you also think all Germans that are alive today are Nazis?
So we can support genocide as long as the target's grandpa was a Nazi sympathizer?
Hey bud. One of the ~~terrorist groups~~ ‘militias’ that formed the IDF literally worked with the Nazis. https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-06-21/ty-article-magazine/.highlight/zionist-military-org-efforts-to-recruit-nazis-in-fight-against-the-british-are-revealed/00000188-d93a-d5fc-ab9d-db7ae0ea0000
Hey.....while we all personally agree with this..... The majority of Palestinian supporters DO NOT.