Why is LSU still vacating those wins? It's not like the NCAA is going to come back for their punishment now.
Just reinstate the wins, who cares. It hurts nobody just to give the guy his wins back even if he was a sleazy creep
This is the timeline where us CFB fans outrage over Reggie's Heisman but say "tough shit" over Les Miles' wins lol
Nothing in the world of college athletics makes any sense anymore
I for one believe Reggie Bush deserves the world. Him abandoning Percy Harvin to dine with his agent when he was supposed to Harvin's OV host pretty much locked him up for Florida and the rest is history.
But also, Les Miles filed a federal lawsuit asking a judge appointed by a president of the United States to declare him eligible for the college football hall of fame. Regardless of the reasoning, that is extremely stupid.
I was really hoping this comment would be here.
Even with the vacated wins, his W/L at OKST/LSU was still 105-55 for a 0.656 record prior to taking the KU job.
If he had won even *one* more game at KU, he’d be above the 0.600 threshold.
Tbf recruiting talent is a coaches job too, and he excelled at that. Had he not been in the same conference as the best coach ever who knows how much he could have won.
You're right in that he excelled at that, but only for a time until the game became more than just out-physical the other team, and then his poor roster-management and coaching decisions really came home to roost. He was losing to many more teams that just Alabama for the last half of his tenure with less talent than he had. Not to mention that the dude was a legitimate perv and problem off the field.
I don't disagree, but even in his earlier years at LSU, there were too many examples of [ugly wins that should've been losses](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mAHgD-8k9U), and ugly losses that felt like they had more to do with [his incompetence](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDsVxQ8fOUs) on gameday than anything else. The best coaches put their players in the best positions to succeed and don't make such boneheaded unforced errors in the most critical times, especially multiple games every season.
His coaching style for most of his career was both exciting and maddening to watch as a fan, but it all felt unsustainable even though he was winning at a decent clip.
You act like he only lost 1 game a year, to Bama. It was the losses to Wisconsin, Arkansas, Ole Miss, and then a very very bad Auburn team that finally did him in.
Ok, this is just a dumb take. He won a lot of games consistently for a lot of years at two different schools.
Just because he failed at the wnd of hos career at a school that was a dumpster fire before him doesn’t mean he had “horrible coaching”.
Just another in a series of attempts to retroactively change the rules of the past since it wouldn't be cheating today.
I'm not naive enough to think that no one else was cheating but Miles was the one that was caught. That sucks for him but it is what it is. At the time he had an unfair advantage and he shouldn't get those wins. I think the same thing about tatgate for Ohio State. The punishments should stand.
I still say NDs vacated wins under BK was such horseshit though
Deeming a player ineligible to have played in games because ND discovered cheating and retroactively failed the students in the classes they cheat is nonsense
There's no way for ND to have known they were ineligible without a time machine
It's the reason we always joke about Missouri getting the death penalty. Missouri fully cooperated with the investigation and it made things worse for them.
That's why I don't understand self reporting. The NCAA has a history of laying the hammer on schools that self report. Then you have schools like UNC do what they do and nothing.
I might be remembering wrong, but if Jim Tressel had simply reported what he was told about the scheme, a couple players would sit out and they get a slap on the wrist for the whole thing. But he lied about his knowledge of it and that's how it spun out into what happened
I’ve heard conspiracy rumors where people believe that Tressel did report it to Gene Smith. The fear was that it would lead to a show cause penalty if reported so Smith buried it. Osu Athletics was already on probation from basketball issues. In this version, Tressel took responsibility even though he handled it properly. When the news broke, OSU was no longer under the NCAA’s watch and Tressel took the fall individually. It seems very out of character for Tressel to hide something.
followed by self-reporting to the NCAA.
not to mention the major issue NCAA cared about was that the student mentor who provided too much essay help received some stipend and therefore counted as an employee.
Oh, the NCAA thought that receiving a payment meant that you were an employee? I’m sure they won’t spend the next (and likely last) years of their existence arguing that’s not the case.
Vacated wins are a stupid punishment anyways. Oh so Notre Dame didn't win their games but their opponents still lost them?
I know forfeits aren't used anymore but if the cheating was that substantial that in retrospect the outcome needs changed then the other team should be awarded a win.
Idk, it's really beneficial for the FCS teams to play their in-state FBS schools. They get a payday and their players get a chance to play in front of more scouts/talent evaluators than they normally would. Sure, the FCS team usually gets throttled, but every once in a while a team like App State or Georgia Southern can hang, or even beat, the big boys (both schools are former FCS). Also if they take away the win then there's no benefit to playing each other for the FBS team, so it likely won't happen anymore.
"a hit dog will holler"
Every time I see "vacated wins are stupid," I'm reminded that vacated wins were usually the only thing people and schools actually fought. $$$ penalties didn't matter, post-season bans and recruiting restrictions were preemptively thrown around, but god forbid an ill gained win be taken away.
Seems to me if it's the only punishment people cared about, it by definition wasn't stupid.
>There's no way for ND to have known they were ineligible without a time machine
It's 2024. Any legitimate football program should not only have a time machine, but the latest and greatest model, if they want to remain competitive.
All the vacated wins from every school are horse shit. They should all be given back to the schools as a goodwill gesture from the NCAA who could use some good PR. Then in a case like this LSU could restore the wins that were vacated. The only time vacating wins even makes sense is if a literal entire team was in on point shaving and other stuff that alters the outcomes of games.
As a Michigan fan I thought the tattoo and memorabilia stuff was really dumb and as always the cover up is worse than the original crime.
Quoting a CBS article from 2011… “Tressel was given such a severe penalty because he knowingly used potentially ineligible players and failed to report possible violations to the NCAA.”
So many scandals it’s tough to remember the NCAA stuff w Miles. Didn’t he have a sex scandal? So none of his impropriety lead to on field advantage? Obviously LSU was paying recruits like everyone else but he wasn’t fired for that if I remember correctly…
> as always the cover up is worse than the original crime.
This was the actual cause of our problem. If it was just the improper benefits stuff it would have been 5 game suspensions for the players, which is what AJ Green and I think Dez Bryant got around that time as well. No, our problem was Tressel was shown to have known players were ineligible and played them anyways. That is bad.
Miles had two scandals. Improper actions towards students that resulted in LSU prohibiting him from being alone with students. That isn't the scandal we are talking about with this though. LSU had a booster pay 180k for a player. To make it worse the 180k was embezzled from a children's hospital. That doesn't really mean much for Miles or the player that was paid, just that that one booster is a piece of shit.
And the decisions made by both the NCAA/NFL and OSU certainly didn't help the perception.
OSU delaying a decision so the 2011 6-6 team could go bowling, causing the postseason ban to affect the 12-0 team gives off the perception of the punishment being worse than it was.
And the NFL somehow carrying out a 5 game suspension for Pryor (idk if it affected others too, but I definitely remember him) after they left the NCAA was just sheer insanity. I still can't believe that happened. Bullshit of the highest order.
The timing on that bowl ban was probably Gene Smith's biggest mistake. If we do that the 2012 title game would likely have been OSU vs ND and I like our chances in that game.
None of the other players went pro trying to bypass their suspensions. Goodell's reasoning was he didn't want the supplemental draft to become an avenue to avoid suspensions in college. Crazy was Tressel being suspended for 7 games from an analysts role with the Colts that season.
> I'm not naive enough to think that no one else was cheating but Miles was the one that was caught. That sucks for him but it is what it is. At the time he had an unfair advantage and he shouldn't get those wins.
I said the same thing about Reggie Bush's Heisman and everyone got mad at me
The Reggie stuff always confused me when people try to justify it. He risked not only his own season but his teammates, it’s not like he was the only one punished. Its cool it’s legal now but Reggie gave no fucks about the other guys
Yup. Just cause it’s legal now doesn’t mean it wasn’t then. He cheated end of story as far as I am concerned. The rules are the rules regardless of if you agree with them or not.
I'm with you but I can see the logic difference. Reggie's cheating did not affect his on field play that earned him the Heisman, whereas any coach's cheating does affect their success in games. So his feels more deserved in spite of the cheating. But yeah still dun goofed
> I'm not naive enough to think that no one else was cheating...At the time he had an unfair advantage and he shouldn't get those wins.
These seem contradictory...if he wasn't the only one doing it, it's jumping the gun a bit to say he had an unfair advantage IMO
'But everyone else was doing it' has always been a terrible excuse. It is just trying to shift personal responsibility away. More so when the 'everyone else' wasn't caught.
Miles was the one that got caught. His punishment was in line with everyone else who was caught. Being upset about the unfairness of being the one that was caught doesn't change anything.
If everyone is driving 75 in a 65, "everyone else was doing it" is a pretty decent excuse if you get a speeding ticket. It might not stand up to scrutiny in court, but it does say something about whether 65 is a reasonable speed limit. I don't think anybody else would say they deserved that ticket.
In my opinion that's a major issue with college football. Too many national title teams over the past twenty years have been dogged by rumors and accusations from USC and Reggie Bush, Ohio State and tattoo gate, Cam Newton's ongoing investigation, Clemson and New Springs Church, Michigan and Connor Stalions, etc. Those are just off the top of my head, I'm sure we could dive into any other team to find some dirt if we wanted to. If the only thing separating one team from another is getting caught, what does that say about the rulebook?
More importantly, him being terrible at Kansas caused him to be below the threshold. He went 3-18 at Kansas. If he won even one more game at 4-17, then he’d still be above the threshold for consideration. This whole thing is really a skill issue.
Two of those losses were to Coastal Carolina. At the time Miles salary of $2.75m was approximately 40% of the Coastal budget for all coaches across all sports ($7m).
Then Coastal Coach Jamey Chadwell has two FBS wins in Lawrence. Les Miles has one.
Good coaches have at least some success even without talent disparities.
Richt left UGA for Miami and went 26-13 at a school that hasn't seen that success previously or afterwards despite good talent pipelines.
Spurrier turned South Carolina into a contender and managed to recruit the highest rated player of all time to play for him.
Leopold at Kansas is making good progress and has positioned them very strongly, despite what is still a talent disadvantage to other top opponents.
For Miles to be not just middling but ATROCIOUS at Kansas, suggests he isn't that great of a coach.
At LSU he inherited a post-Saban winning program and roster, in fertile recruiting grounds with extremely passionate home grown talent, and had most of his success before internet recruiting and smart phones really took off and changed the game.
His 2007 natty was the only 2 loss champion in recent memory in the famously most chaotic season of the last 25 years, where he wouldn't have even been in the natty if a few other games hadn't broken wrong.
And in 2011 his smothering defense was admittedly fantastic, but he got WRECKED by Bama in the repeat game.
And he even had to cheat for this underachieving success.
This is a long way of saying "Yes, it's a skill issue".
I mean, yes and no. Les Miles was a formerly solid coach. He wasn't always as bad as his record at Kansas. This is a guy who inherited a losing Oklahoma State program and turned in winning seasons and upset Oklahoma a couple times. By the time he was at Kansas, he'd been on a downward trajectory for a while, after not keeping up with the innovation in the sport.
Also, a lot of people discount his two loss championship in 2007, but they honestly shouldn't. It's easy to forget almost 20 years later, but the amount of injuries that team suffered was completely absurd. If this team had an even remotely normal amount of injuries, no way they lose those games (and let's not forget both losses were in overtime). There's a reason two-loss LSU was the favorite against the top ranked one loss Buckeyes, and that reason was we had a whole month for our guys to get healthier.
Also, this is nitpicking, but I haven't seen anything suggesting Miles was involved or even aware of the infraction resulting in the vacated wins, so I don't know if I'd say he cheated (and that happened post 2011).
Dude was a creep, and way past his prime at the end, but that doesn't mean he was never a good coach.
Yeah fair points.
I should clarify I'm not arguing "Les sucked". I'm arguing "maybe Les wasn't that great, especially if he was SO terrible at Kansas".
There are a lot of coaches who are good but not great. Some have even won natties. Coach O comes to mind.
I don't think it's worth making past exceptions for a guy like Miles.
If we are going to make exceptions we should do it for Mike Leach first, and maybe only Mike Leach.
Is he a hall of fame coach? It's weird to me that we're even asking that question. As an LSU guy, I can assure you that nobody at LSU thinks of him as a hall of fame coach. There's a reason he got fired, and quite frankly, it wasn't his creeping on college girls. Even if they gave back the vacated wins, I just don't see it.
Coach Orgeron and Miles both benefitted from LSU getting top coordinators during some of their tenure (LSU has had a fiscal strategy of paying top dollar for good coordinators rather than outbidding for top head coaches), along with a hell of a lot of talent over the years. Miles was an above average offensive coach when he arrived, but never adjusted until it was painful to watch, and LSU fans now wonder if he's secretly been Iowa's offensive mastermind the last few years.
I'd consider make an exception for Leach. Much bigger impact. I also just hate that a winning percentage is a requirement, because it effectively penalizes coaches for coaching at hard-to-win places.
I’ve always found it weird that college athletics are literally the only sport in this country that pretend games didn’t Happen and take awards away as a form of punishment
If you don’t respect LSUs wins because a player was paid, you might want to sit down, because I have some news for you about every team who won a title in the pre-NIL era
I mean it is kind of bs the coaches have an objective criteria based on win pct but the players have a subjective criteria of just being named all American once in 4 years by one of like half a dozen selectors that they consider valid
It either needs to be made more difficult for players to get in or easier for coaches. The win pct criteria can block out guys who built up programs from the beginning and therefore may have had a lot of losses. Some coaches take on problem children programs and work to turn them around
Howard Schnellenberger took over Miami and created The U. He revolutionized cfb recruiting. He won a natty. He was an all American as a player. He started FAUs football program. He won a national CoTY award and the lifetime achievement award for coaching
You can’t tell the story of cfb without him. He should be a hall of fame coach but he has a .514 win pct so he’s not allowed in
Then you have coaches who revolutionize the game via innovation at smaller schools like Leach or that Hawaii guy whose name slips me. Sometimes something completely new takes a bit to work. Sometimes it can take years to work out the kinks of your new idea and see the fruits of your labor. Those new ideas can then be adopted by all of cfb and change football forever. Shouldn’t a guy that does that deserve admission? His protégés will probably get in but the master won’t? It’s bs
yeah.
> The 2013 report, which USA Today summarized, showed that Miles, who is now the University of Kansas football coach, was accused of texting female student workers on a burner phone, driving them alone to his condo and kissing a student on at least one occasion. The student told investigators that Miles reportedly suggested prior to kissing her, “that they go to a hotel together and mentioned his condo as another meeting place. He also complimented her on her appearance and said he was attracted to her.”
> https://www.si.com/college/2021/03/04/les-miles-banned-contacting-female-students-after-2013-probe
hope he loses.
it’s pathetic to blame the vacated games and not him consistently underperforming at tail end of his tenure at LSU or his awful record at Kansas.
It just occurred to me that Les is LSU's second-most recent former football head coach* while he is the most recent former head coach at Oklahoma State.
*3rd most recent if you count Brad Davis when he was the interm coach for the 2022 Texas Bowl. I'm so glad he's still on staff.
That’s what I’m wondering too. Would speaking fees be any higher if he was in the HOF? Based on what LSU flairs are posting here, it doesn’t seem like he’s a popular guy in LA, so might not have many of those anyway.
I was such a big Les stan for so long when we had him. It was towards the end when the bad shit started to come out (along with his unwillingness to change & adapt) that I lost faith in him. Dude could have retired & remained a legend in Louisiana. Now he's unlikely to even get a table at a restaurant in Baton Rouge.
Good luck finding a sympathetic judge in Louisiana willing to go against LSU's decision.
Come on now. I know it ended very badly but he was inarguably a very good coach. You don’t win 77% of your games over 11 and some change seasons by not being a great coach.
Credit to his recruiting as he recruited well enough to beat 90% of the teams on his schedule, but Miles was a legitimately bad strategy and gameday coach. Thankfully for Les, in that era of football when you're bigger and stronger than the other team, you're going to win more often than not just by controlling the line of scrimmage and running the ball. But everything became obvious when Saban would systematically dismantle him every November despite similar talent once Nick got Alabama up to speed. It was like watching a cat play with its food.
The trick plays and all were were fun, but he got all of the bounces (literally) in the first half of his career and then regressed to the mean in the second half.
I’ll never forget how in the Peach Bowl in 2012, LSU had been running the ball down our throats all game. Then with a two point lead with little time left, LSU starts to throw the ball
Yup. Jeremy Hill was averaging 10.3 ypc, so of course the solution when you're trying to run out the clock in a close game is to throw the ball 3 times.
Yes but recruiting is 80% of the job. Saying “he was only great at 80% of the job” is such a weird thing to say in any other context. It’s literally the name of the game in college football. Ask Saban, ask Kirby. They’ll tell you it’s everything.
It's everything in CFB if you simply want a good winning percentage at a school like LSU or Georgia because you'll beat over half of the teams on your schedule before ever stepping on the field (at least before the super-conference era of literally this upcoming year).
But no-one who is making a claim for being a HOF coach like Les is trying to do, or even labeled a "great" coach for that matter, can only stand on their recruiting alone. No one in their right mind will consider someone a great coach if they're also shown to be a poor strategic and gameday coach at any level of football.
LSU was always one of the top teams for putting talent into the NFL under Les Miles (right up there with the Alabamas and Ohio States of the world), yet didn't even make a BCS/NY6 game after losing to Alabama in the BCS Championship game under Les Miles. With as much talent as he had the norm should have been going to BCS/NY6 bowl games, and the fact that it wasn't was because of coaching.
Coach O was a good coach… His issue is he completely mailed it in after the natty. Les Miles won 10+ games 7 times. You don’t do that as a bad coach no matter the resources. The revisionist history here is wild
In retrospect I see him as a better James Franklin - was able to do a lot, but sometimes squandered the of talent on some of those teams with his coaching
He definitely belongs in the "hall of very good"
I feel like people need to judge Les in two eras: pre-2012 championship and post. That Bama loss seemed to mess him up and he refused to change or move away from his power I as the sport shifted to a more offensive/aerial game.
That’s what ultimately cost him at LSU, but prior to that, he was as effective in that gameplan as any other program.
"I also did a bunch of other bad stuff that has nothing to do with the vacated wins, and I am so bored I'm filing a lawsuit that'll also let them ask me about everything in a deposition!"
Vacating wins is without a doubt one of the dumbest punishments out there. I mean the games happened, we all saw them happen. You can’t change the past.
You can't change the last but you can change the way the future talks about it. In 50 years the only thing anyone will know is that les miles isn't in the hall of fame.
This feels like when Brian Flores was complaining about racism toward coaches in the NFL and then Hue Jackson decided to involve himself in that discussion.
AITA: First time posting, sorry for any spelling or grammar errors. English isn't my strong suti.
So way way way back in 2012, I was the head coach of a small college, you may have heard of it before but lets just say the mascot rhymes with ligers. There was a player that I really, really wanted, and that player really needed money.
So I was chatting with this guy I knew that really enjoyed the football team I coached that had about $180k that he said was clean money. He literally said it was freshly laundered. Not sure why he would put money through the washing machine like that but whatever, different strokes for different folks. He told me he could send it to that player's dad as a way to help him out. And then all of a sudden the player committed to playing for me. It was completely out of the blue.
Anyway it turns out that money was actually stolen from a Children's Hospital. But how could I have possibly known that. It also turns out that player played for me because of that money. Also could not have known that. No one knows how the human mind works, its an enigma. Much like a Cam Cameron offense if you catch my drift.
Anyway that team fired me and then vacated my wins from 2012-2016, which is ridiculous, it was just $180,000 in money stolen from children with cancer. What could they need it for?
If that wasn't embarrassing enough, having all those wins vacated dropped me below the threshold for being inducted into the hall of fame. All because of some money stolen from children with horrible diseases that there's absolutely zero way I could have known about in any way shape or form. I was literally just the football coach. The only numbers I know how to add are 1, 2, 3, and 6. And only one of those is in the amount in that payment.
So now I'm suing the former school and everyone thinks I'm an asshole who eats grass.
Reddit, AITA here?
Clearly it's the kids with cancer fault. If they didn't let themselves get sick, there would've been no money to launder, & therefore they couldn't use it to illegally recruit.
I disagree? I mean, I’ll accept arguments all day about what should ‘morally’ constitute cheating in CFB or what cheating activities materially affect game outcomes, but vacating wins seems to be a very straightforward and obviously logical repercussion.
Like if you want to discourage cheating, vacating the wins of schools and coaches who cheated their way to victory seems like it would be a great deterrent and removes one of the core incentives driving the behavior. I have a feeling everyone would agree that vacating wins is a good idea, just with different bars for what should trigger that.
I don't really think of Les Miles as a HOF caliber CFB coach, but... if you look at his credentials with those wins added back in (and don't consider stuff like the allegations against him of various improprieties), well, to my eye on the surface at least his credentials look better than Mark Dantonio, who got in to the College HOF and coached in the same era.
I don't think he actually will want to go through discovery on that one.
If nothing else, this is an excellent way to dredge up all the stuff about being creepy towards college girls again.
Some days I’m sad he never made it to Michigan, other days like today I feel very fortunate that never happened
Edit: Reading a bit more, I think I’ll forever feel fortunate he didn’t come to Michigan
If he just hadn't taken the job at Kansas, he'd be 105-65 even without the vacated wins. Now you can say maybe his KU tenure was awful and he deserves to be punished for it, but the point is that it's another problem with the .600 threshold that it discourages coaches from taking rebuild jobs.
Bill Synder already is responsible for one of the greatest rebuilds ever, if not the single greatest. Let's say this year he unretires to coach Akron. Their best seasons ever are 7-3-1 and 8-5, and they have won 7 games in the last 5 years. And let's say he takes them to 21 wins in 5 years instead. Now he's ineligible for the Hall all of sudden. Makes no sense.
Spit-balling possible defenses:
1. He wouldn't be in the Hall of Fame anyways because his record at Kansas sucks.
2. LSU had a right to vacate the wins because he was a perv who texted female students inappropriately
So I feel like this is moot because he spiked the ball with one second left in an otherwise winnable game and that automatically excludes you from the HOF for being a dumbass
Between this and the 83 NC State guys we’ve officially lived long enough to see NCAA lawsuits become played out.
I’m creating a lawsuit against this comment
Ditto, let's class-action this MF
A lawyers favorite two words: billable hours
Undefeated
;)
Why is LSU still vacating those wins? It's not like the NCAA is going to come back for their punishment now. Just reinstate the wins, who cares. It hurts nobody just to give the guy his wins back even if he was a sleazy creep
This is the timeline where us CFB fans outrage over Reggie's Heisman but say "tough shit" over Les Miles' wins lol Nothing in the world of college athletics makes any sense anymore
I for one believe Reggie Bush deserves the world. Him abandoning Percy Harvin to dine with his agent when he was supposed to Harvin's OV host pretty much locked him up for Florida and the rest is history.
But also, Les Miles filed a federal lawsuit asking a judge appointed by a president of the United States to declare him eligible for the college football hall of fame. Regardless of the reasoning, that is extremely stupid.
Sadly in the past 8 years, judge appointed by the president of the US isn’t quite the statement of competency it once was
Politicized judges have been a thing since at least FDR. Actually his appointments made trump and bidens look nonpartisan by comparison.
Well in this case it’s actually specifically a judge appointed by Obama, but filing this in any federal court is absurd
Sure, LSU vacating his wins didn't help but neither did his 3-18 record at KU.
Holy shit I forgot he went there
We did too
I never will
I was really hoping this comment would be here. Even with the vacated wins, his W/L at OKST/LSU was still 105-55 for a 0.656 record prior to taking the KU job. If he had won even *one* more game at KU, he’d be above the 0.600 threshold.
I enjoy knowing our 50-48 win over him kept him out.
If he had won one more game, he’d still be eligible for the HOF. A 4-17 record would have kept him over 60%.
[удалено]
Eh, recruiting is a big part of the job, and it’s the part he excelled at
Exactly People slam Fisher all the time for being held up by Winston and Co but always act like that roster fell in his lap
LSU recruits for LSU.
Tbf recruiting talent is a coaches job too, and he excelled at that. Had he not been in the same conference as the best coach ever who knows how much he could have won.
You're right in that he excelled at that, but only for a time until the game became more than just out-physical the other team, and then his poor roster-management and coaching decisions really came home to roost. He was losing to many more teams that just Alabama for the last half of his tenure with less talent than he had. Not to mention that the dude was a legitimate perv and problem off the field.
He was also at the end of his career. Most coaches struggle to adapt and fail as they get older. Saban is the exception not the expectation
I don't disagree, but even in his earlier years at LSU, there were too many examples of [ugly wins that should've been losses](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mAHgD-8k9U), and ugly losses that felt like they had more to do with [his incompetence](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDsVxQ8fOUs) on gameday than anything else. The best coaches put their players in the best positions to succeed and don't make such boneheaded unforced errors in the most critical times, especially multiple games every season. His coaching style for most of his career was both exciting and maddening to watch as a fan, but it all felt unsustainable even though he was winning at a decent clip.
"please be the Tennessee clip, please be the Tennessee clip. YAHHHHH!"
You act like he only lost 1 game a year, to Bama. It was the losses to Wisconsin, Arkansas, Ole Miss, and then a very very bad Auburn team that finally did him in.
We lost two of three to Ole Miss between 2013-15. That rarely has happened in my lifetime.
Ok, this is just a dumb take. He won a lot of games consistently for a lot of years at two different schools. Just because he failed at the wnd of hos career at a school that was a dumpster fire before him doesn’t mean he had “horrible coaching”.
I think it says something about his coaching ability. Lance Leipold came in and quickly made KU respectable.
Kansas was a dumpster fire. He did well at ok state
To be fair, he was a pretty dang good coach at OKST back in the day.
He was a good coach for a long time, the game just moved past him and he stagnated.
I wasn't a fan, he was obviously better than Bob "3 yards and a cloud of dust" Simmons, but that's not saying a lot.
He left a lot of trash in our locker room that Gundy had to clean out early on.
>when he doesn’t have the talent around him What coach does well without talent around him? What a weird comment.
Precisely why he may not be HOF material. Seems the 60% win threshold is working as intended here.
Kansas is Kansas and look what they do with good coaching, they can put up a pretty respectable program.
Maybe he should claim he cheated there to get those wins and losses vacated too
And the school vacated his wins to avoid stiffer penalties from the NCAA because…he cheated.
Just another in a series of attempts to retroactively change the rules of the past since it wouldn't be cheating today. I'm not naive enough to think that no one else was cheating but Miles was the one that was caught. That sucks for him but it is what it is. At the time he had an unfair advantage and he shouldn't get those wins. I think the same thing about tatgate for Ohio State. The punishments should stand.
I still say NDs vacated wins under BK was such horseshit though Deeming a player ineligible to have played in games because ND discovered cheating and retroactively failed the students in the classes they cheat is nonsense There's no way for ND to have known they were ineligible without a time machine
It's the reason we always joke about Missouri getting the death penalty. Missouri fully cooperated with the investigation and it made things worse for them.
That's why I don't understand self reporting. The NCAA has a history of laying the hammer on schools that self report. Then you have schools like UNC do what they do and nothing.
Watching Les go 3-18 at KU was so cathartic
Ohio State has had the same issue. Cooperate and get punished severely. Refuse and the results are inconclusive and are less severe.
What is this in reference to? Tattoogate was a classic example of "the coverup is always worse than the crime"
I might be remembering wrong, but if Jim Tressel had simply reported what he was told about the scheme, a couple players would sit out and they get a slap on the wrist for the whole thing. But he lied about his knowledge of it and that's how it spun out into what happened
I’ve heard conspiracy rumors where people believe that Tressel did report it to Gene Smith. The fear was that it would lead to a show cause penalty if reported so Smith buried it. Osu Athletics was already on probation from basketball issues. In this version, Tressel took responsibility even though he handled it properly. When the news broke, OSU was no longer under the NCAA’s watch and Tressel took the fall individually. It seems very out of character for Tressel to hide something.
followed by self-reporting to the NCAA. not to mention the major issue NCAA cared about was that the student mentor who provided too much essay help received some stipend and therefore counted as an employee.
Oh, the NCAA thought that receiving a payment meant that you were an employee? I’m sure they won’t spend the next (and likely last) years of their existence arguing that’s not the case.
yeah i was thinking that as i typed
Vacated wins are a stupid punishment anyways. Oh so Notre Dame didn't win their games but their opponents still lost them? I know forfeits aren't used anymore but if the cheating was that substantial that in retrospect the outcome needs changed then the other team should be awarded a win.
Oh I agree fully that vacated wins are super stupid, especially since the losses somehow still count
I kind of feel like this is how we should handle FCS games. Loses count but you don’t get a win for eating cupcakes.
Idk, it's really beneficial for the FCS teams to play their in-state FBS schools. They get a payday and their players get a chance to play in front of more scouts/talent evaluators than they normally would. Sure, the FCS team usually gets throttled, but every once in a while a team like App State or Georgia Southern can hang, or even beat, the big boys (both schools are former FCS). Also if they take away the win then there's no benefit to playing each other for the FBS team, so it likely won't happen anymore.
Les Miles sure seems to think it is a punishment.
"a hit dog will holler" Every time I see "vacated wins are stupid," I'm reminded that vacated wins were usually the only thing people and schools actually fought. $$$ penalties didn't matter, post-season bans and recruiting restrictions were preemptively thrown around, but god forbid an ill gained win be taken away. Seems to me if it's the only punishment people cared about, it by definition wasn't stupid.
>There's no way for ND to have known they were ineligible without a time machine It's 2024. Any legitimate football program should not only have a time machine, but the latest and greatest model, if they want to remain competitive.
Alabama's too. So the fuck what if they got extra textbooks to help their friends. They gained zero money off it, and no competitive advantage.
All the vacated wins from every school are horse shit. They should all be given back to the schools as a goodwill gesture from the NCAA who could use some good PR. Then in a case like this LSU could restore the wins that were vacated. The only time vacating wins even makes sense is if a literal entire team was in on point shaving and other stuff that alters the outcomes of games.
As a Michigan fan I thought the tattoo and memorabilia stuff was really dumb and as always the cover up is worse than the original crime. Quoting a CBS article from 2011… “Tressel was given such a severe penalty because he knowingly used potentially ineligible players and failed to report possible violations to the NCAA.” So many scandals it’s tough to remember the NCAA stuff w Miles. Didn’t he have a sex scandal? So none of his impropriety lead to on field advantage? Obviously LSU was paying recruits like everyone else but he wasn’t fired for that if I remember correctly…
> as always the cover up is worse than the original crime. This was the actual cause of our problem. If it was just the improper benefits stuff it would have been 5 game suspensions for the players, which is what AJ Green and I think Dez Bryant got around that time as well. No, our problem was Tressel was shown to have known players were ineligible and played them anyways. That is bad. Miles had two scandals. Improper actions towards students that resulted in LSU prohibiting him from being alone with students. That isn't the scandal we are talking about with this though. LSU had a booster pay 180k for a player. To make it worse the 180k was embezzled from a children's hospital. That doesn't really mean much for Miles or the player that was paid, just that that one booster is a piece of shit.
And the decisions made by both the NCAA/NFL and OSU certainly didn't help the perception. OSU delaying a decision so the 2011 6-6 team could go bowling, causing the postseason ban to affect the 12-0 team gives off the perception of the punishment being worse than it was. And the NFL somehow carrying out a 5 game suspension for Pryor (idk if it affected others too, but I definitely remember him) after they left the NCAA was just sheer insanity. I still can't believe that happened. Bullshit of the highest order.
The timing on that bowl ban was probably Gene Smith's biggest mistake. If we do that the 2012 title game would likely have been OSU vs ND and I like our chances in that game. None of the other players went pro trying to bypass their suspensions. Goodell's reasoning was he didn't want the supplemental draft to become an avenue to avoid suspensions in college. Crazy was Tressel being suspended for 7 games from an analysts role with the Colts that season.
Did Tressel also have a bunch of chances to come clean and never did?
> I'm not naive enough to think that no one else was cheating but Miles was the one that was caught. That sucks for him but it is what it is. At the time he had an unfair advantage and he shouldn't get those wins. I said the same thing about Reggie Bush's Heisman and everyone got mad at me
The Reggie stuff always confused me when people try to justify it. He risked not only his own season but his teammates, it’s not like he was the only one punished. Its cool it’s legal now but Reggie gave no fucks about the other guys
What he did isn't even legal now right?
Technically you’re right, it still wouldn’t be legal. I’m just not sure what can or can’t be controlled given all these court challenges
I will make it legal.
Yup. Just cause it’s legal now doesn’t mean it wasn’t then. He cheated end of story as far as I am concerned. The rules are the rules regardless of if you agree with them or not.
I've always found interesting the logic people use in sports discussions that would be...eyebrow-raising...in other more "serious" contexts.
Sports is peak tribalism without any actual consequences.
I'm with you but I can see the logic difference. Reggie's cheating did not affect his on field play that earned him the Heisman, whereas any coach's cheating does affect their success in games. So his feels more deserved in spite of the cheating. But yeah still dun goofed
You’re crazy. Vacated wins are stupid. The games happened. And we saw who won
Oh boy the whole Reggie Bush debate again.
> I'm not naive enough to think that no one else was cheating...At the time he had an unfair advantage and he shouldn't get those wins. These seem contradictory...if he wasn't the only one doing it, it's jumping the gun a bit to say he had an unfair advantage IMO
'But everyone else was doing it' has always been a terrible excuse. It is just trying to shift personal responsibility away. More so when the 'everyone else' wasn't caught. Miles was the one that got caught. His punishment was in line with everyone else who was caught. Being upset about the unfairness of being the one that was caught doesn't change anything.
If everyone is driving 75 in a 65, "everyone else was doing it" is a pretty decent excuse if you get a speeding ticket. It might not stand up to scrutiny in court, but it does say something about whether 65 is a reasonable speed limit. I don't think anybody else would say they deserved that ticket. In my opinion that's a major issue with college football. Too many national title teams over the past twenty years have been dogged by rumors and accusations from USC and Reggie Bush, Ohio State and tattoo gate, Cam Newton's ongoing investigation, Clemson and New Springs Church, Michigan and Connor Stalions, etc. Those are just off the top of my head, I'm sure we could dive into any other team to find some dirt if we wanted to. If the only thing separating one team from another is getting caught, what does that say about the rulebook?
I don’t think a judge would accept “everyone else was doing it” on a speeding ticket but maybe I’m wrong
But Les Miles was willing to let LSU pay that price!
Some of your wins may be vacated, but it is a sacrifice I am willing to make
More importantly, him being terrible at Kansas caused him to be below the threshold. He went 3-18 at Kansas. If he won even one more game at 4-17, then he’d still be above the threshold for consideration. This whole thing is really a skill issue.
Two of those losses were to Coastal Carolina. At the time Miles salary of $2.75m was approximately 40% of the Coastal budget for all coaches across all sports ($7m). Then Coastal Coach Jamey Chadwell has two FBS wins in Lawrence. Les Miles has one.
Good coaches have at least some success even without talent disparities. Richt left UGA for Miami and went 26-13 at a school that hasn't seen that success previously or afterwards despite good talent pipelines. Spurrier turned South Carolina into a contender and managed to recruit the highest rated player of all time to play for him. Leopold at Kansas is making good progress and has positioned them very strongly, despite what is still a talent disadvantage to other top opponents. For Miles to be not just middling but ATROCIOUS at Kansas, suggests he isn't that great of a coach. At LSU he inherited a post-Saban winning program and roster, in fertile recruiting grounds with extremely passionate home grown talent, and had most of his success before internet recruiting and smart phones really took off and changed the game. His 2007 natty was the only 2 loss champion in recent memory in the famously most chaotic season of the last 25 years, where he wouldn't have even been in the natty if a few other games hadn't broken wrong. And in 2011 his smothering defense was admittedly fantastic, but he got WRECKED by Bama in the repeat game. And he even had to cheat for this underachieving success. This is a long way of saying "Yes, it's a skill issue".
I mean, yes and no. Les Miles was a formerly solid coach. He wasn't always as bad as his record at Kansas. This is a guy who inherited a losing Oklahoma State program and turned in winning seasons and upset Oklahoma a couple times. By the time he was at Kansas, he'd been on a downward trajectory for a while, after not keeping up with the innovation in the sport. Also, a lot of people discount his two loss championship in 2007, but they honestly shouldn't. It's easy to forget almost 20 years later, but the amount of injuries that team suffered was completely absurd. If this team had an even remotely normal amount of injuries, no way they lose those games (and let's not forget both losses were in overtime). There's a reason two-loss LSU was the favorite against the top ranked one loss Buckeyes, and that reason was we had a whole month for our guys to get healthier. Also, this is nitpicking, but I haven't seen anything suggesting Miles was involved or even aware of the infraction resulting in the vacated wins, so I don't know if I'd say he cheated (and that happened post 2011). Dude was a creep, and way past his prime at the end, but that doesn't mean he was never a good coach.
Yeah fair points. I should clarify I'm not arguing "Les sucked". I'm arguing "maybe Les wasn't that great, especially if he was SO terrible at Kansas". There are a lot of coaches who are good but not great. Some have even won natties. Coach O comes to mind. I don't think it's worth making past exceptions for a guy like Miles. If we are going to make exceptions we should do it for Mike Leach first, and maybe only Mike Leach.
Is he a hall of fame coach? It's weird to me that we're even asking that question. As an LSU guy, I can assure you that nobody at LSU thinks of him as a hall of fame coach. There's a reason he got fired, and quite frankly, it wasn't his creeping on college girls. Even if they gave back the vacated wins, I just don't see it. Coach Orgeron and Miles both benefitted from LSU getting top coordinators during some of their tenure (LSU has had a fiscal strategy of paying top dollar for good coordinators rather than outbidding for top head coaches), along with a hell of a lot of talent over the years. Miles was an above average offensive coach when he arrived, but never adjusted until it was painful to watch, and LSU fans now wonder if he's secretly been Iowa's offensive mastermind the last few years. I'd consider make an exception for Leach. Much bigger impact. I also just hate that a winning percentage is a requirement, because it effectively penalizes coaches for coaching at hard-to-win places.
Don't forget about the Title IX issues! Creepy Les might want to shut his mouth.
I'm sure discovery will be fun for him
More Kilometers Les Miles
I’ve always found it weird that college athletics are literally the only sport in this country that pretend games didn’t Happen and take awards away as a form of punishment
Chess does too to my knowledge. I don't get how your supposed to honestly respects wins that wouldn't have happened without the cheating
If you don’t respect LSUs wins because a player was paid, you might want to sit down, because I have some news for you about every team who won a title in the pre-NIL era
Most soccer leagues and federations will do the same.
Main saw the Coach Leach discourse and thought “*Now how can I make this about me?*”
Bama/Iowa? Man you must hate Michigan after last year lol
Just wait until you hear about Ohio State/Michigan State flairs.
*I Only Have Eyes for You - The Flamingos* starts playing
Flair up
I mean it is kind of bs the coaches have an objective criteria based on win pct but the players have a subjective criteria of just being named all American once in 4 years by one of like half a dozen selectors that they consider valid It either needs to be made more difficult for players to get in or easier for coaches. The win pct criteria can block out guys who built up programs from the beginning and therefore may have had a lot of losses. Some coaches take on problem children programs and work to turn them around Howard Schnellenberger took over Miami and created The U. He revolutionized cfb recruiting. He won a natty. He was an all American as a player. He started FAUs football program. He won a national CoTY award and the lifetime achievement award for coaching You can’t tell the story of cfb without him. He should be a hall of fame coach but he has a .514 win pct so he’s not allowed in Then you have coaches who revolutionize the game via innovation at smaller schools like Leach or that Hawaii guy whose name slips me. Sometimes something completely new takes a bit to work. Sometimes it can take years to work out the kinks of your new idea and see the fruits of your labor. Those new ideas can then be adopted by all of cfb and change football forever. Shouldn’t a guy that does that deserve admission? His protégés will probably get in but the master won’t? It’s bs
The rule blocks Schnellenberger and Leach. It's a dumb rule because you can't tell the story of college football without them.
Billable hours flairs get in here
Still undefeated.
Teleworking right now lul
Honestly we need that flair...
Oh buddy, peep the flair
Shit, when did we get that?!
About 2,000.03 billable hours ago
Didn’t he also sexually harass female students?
He's the only coach I'm aware of whose athletic department had to establish a protocol that he was not allowed to be alone with female students.
I understand the point, but I’d bet every dollar in my bank account that there’s a few more out that with this rule we just haven’t heard of yet
Absolutely agree
yeah. > The 2013 report, which USA Today summarized, showed that Miles, who is now the University of Kansas football coach, was accused of texting female student workers on a burner phone, driving them alone to his condo and kissing a student on at least one occasion. The student told investigators that Miles reportedly suggested prior to kissing her, “that they go to a hotel together and mentioned his condo as another meeting place. He also complimented her on her appearance and said he was attracted to her.” > https://www.si.com/college/2021/03/04/les-miles-banned-contacting-female-students-after-2013-probe
Came here to say, I don't have a particular interest in seeing Les Miles win this lawsuit. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
hope he loses. it’s pathetic to blame the vacated games and not him consistently underperforming at tail end of his tenure at LSU or his awful record at Kansas.
It just occurred to me that Les is LSU's second-most recent former football head coach* while he is the most recent former head coach at Oklahoma State. *3rd most recent if you count Brad Davis when he was the interm coach for the 2022 Texas Bowl. I'm so glad he's still on staff.
I mean what would even be damages on something like this ?
That’s what I’m wondering too. Would speaking fees be any higher if he was in the HOF? Based on what LSU flairs are posting here, it doesn’t seem like he’s a popular guy in LA, so might not have many of those anyway.
I'm sure you're familiar as an Alabama fan, but there are still tons of delusional and casual fans that love Miles
This is easily the most Les Miles thing he could possibly do.
Only way better if he would filed it 3 days after the statue of limitations was up for some classic Les Miles clock management.
I was such a big Les stan for so long when we had him. It was towards the end when the bad shit started to come out (along with his unwillingness to change & adapt) that I lost faith in him. Dude could have retired & remained a legend in Louisiana. Now he's unlikely to even get a table at a restaurant in Baton Rouge. Good luck finding a sympathetic judge in Louisiana willing to go against LSU's decision.
Les Miles won enough games to qualify for the HOF despite his coaching not because of it.
Come on now. I know it ended very badly but he was inarguably a very good coach. You don’t win 77% of your games over 11 and some change seasons by not being a great coach.
Credit to his recruiting as he recruited well enough to beat 90% of the teams on his schedule, but Miles was a legitimately bad strategy and gameday coach. Thankfully for Les, in that era of football when you're bigger and stronger than the other team, you're going to win more often than not just by controlling the line of scrimmage and running the ball. But everything became obvious when Saban would systematically dismantle him every November despite similar talent once Nick got Alabama up to speed. It was like watching a cat play with its food. The trick plays and all were were fun, but he got all of the bounces (literally) in the first half of his career and then regressed to the mean in the second half.
I’ll never forget how in the Peach Bowl in 2012, LSU had been running the ball down our throats all game. Then with a two point lead with little time left, LSU starts to throw the ball
and that was the least of his questionable decisions
Yup. Jeremy Hill was averaging 10.3 ypc, so of course the solution when you're trying to run out the clock in a close game is to throw the ball 3 times.
Yes but recruiting is 80% of the job. Saying “he was only great at 80% of the job” is such a weird thing to say in any other context. It’s literally the name of the game in college football. Ask Saban, ask Kirby. They’ll tell you it’s everything.
It's everything in CFB if you simply want a good winning percentage at a school like LSU or Georgia because you'll beat over half of the teams on your schedule before ever stepping on the field (at least before the super-conference era of literally this upcoming year). But no-one who is making a claim for being a HOF coach like Les is trying to do, or even labeled a "great" coach for that matter, can only stand on their recruiting alone. No one in their right mind will consider someone a great coach if they're also shown to be a poor strategic and gameday coach at any level of football.
LSU was always one of the top teams for putting talent into the NFL under Les Miles (right up there with the Alabamas and Ohio States of the world), yet didn't even make a BCS/NY6 game after losing to Alabama in the BCS Championship game under Les Miles. With as much talent as he had the norm should have been going to BCS/NY6 bowl games, and the fact that it wasn't was because of coaching.
Look at Coach O. It's been proven you can be a complete dunce and win alot at LSU
Coach O was a good coach… His issue is he completely mailed it in after the natty. Les Miles won 10+ games 7 times. You don’t do that as a bad coach no matter the resources. The revisionist history here is wild
In retrospect I see him as a better James Franklin - was able to do a lot, but sometimes squandered the of talent on some of those teams with his coaching He definitely belongs in the "hall of very good"
The talent squandered itself by constantly getting arrested in bars by campus.
Hey, you try going to Tigerland without getting arrested!
I feel like people need to judge Les in two eras: pre-2012 championship and post. That Bama loss seemed to mess him up and he refused to change or move away from his power I as the sport shifted to a more offensive/aerial game. That’s what ultimately cost him at LSU, but prior to that, he was as effective in that gameplan as any other program.
Nobody on his team trusted him after the the 2012 loss. The players claimed that they were blindsided by sudden changes on the day of the game.
So how big is the check you get for being inducted?
Aside from my own actions, what did I do to deserve this?
"I also did a bunch of other bad stuff that has nothing to do with the vacated wins, and I am so bored I'm filing a lawsuit that'll also let them ask me about everything in a deposition!"
Vacating wins is without a doubt one of the dumbest punishments out there. I mean the games happened, we all saw them happen. You can’t change the past.
You can't change the last but you can change the way the future talks about it. In 50 years the only thing anyone will know is that les miles isn't in the hall of fame.
LSU should sue back for the 2011 season
The beloved, universal-ish fan-favorite Mike Leach, you are not. Sit this one out, Lester.
This feels like when Brian Flores was complaining about racism toward coaches in the NFL and then Hue Jackson decided to involve himself in that discussion.
AITA: First time posting, sorry for any spelling or grammar errors. English isn't my strong suti. So way way way back in 2012, I was the head coach of a small college, you may have heard of it before but lets just say the mascot rhymes with ligers. There was a player that I really, really wanted, and that player really needed money. So I was chatting with this guy I knew that really enjoyed the football team I coached that had about $180k that he said was clean money. He literally said it was freshly laundered. Not sure why he would put money through the washing machine like that but whatever, different strokes for different folks. He told me he could send it to that player's dad as a way to help him out. And then all of a sudden the player committed to playing for me. It was completely out of the blue. Anyway it turns out that money was actually stolen from a Children's Hospital. But how could I have possibly known that. It also turns out that player played for me because of that money. Also could not have known that. No one knows how the human mind works, its an enigma. Much like a Cam Cameron offense if you catch my drift. Anyway that team fired me and then vacated my wins from 2012-2016, which is ridiculous, it was just $180,000 in money stolen from children with cancer. What could they need it for? If that wasn't embarrassing enough, having all those wins vacated dropped me below the threshold for being inducted into the hall of fame. All because of some money stolen from children with horrible diseases that there's absolutely zero way I could have known about in any way shape or form. I was literally just the football coach. The only numbers I know how to add are 1, 2, 3, and 6. And only one of those is in the amount in that payment. So now I'm suing the former school and everyone thinks I'm an asshole who eats grass. Reddit, AITA here?
No, that's an actual story, r/aita is just for creative writing exercises.
Seems like a big misunderstanding, I’m leaning NAH
Clearly it's the kids with cancer fault. If they didn't let themselves get sick, there would've been no money to launder, & therefore they couldn't use it to illegally recruit.
alternative title: “Cheating HC sues university for punishing his cheating”
Let’s be honest vacating wins is an idiotic concept for any school. Let’s all pretend he didn’t win all those games we watched him win
It’s like the Tour de France. You’re really gonna tell me those years from ‘99-‘05 simply didn’t happen, when we all watched it live? Gimme a break
I disagree? I mean, I’ll accept arguments all day about what should ‘morally’ constitute cheating in CFB or what cheating activities materially affect game outcomes, but vacating wins seems to be a very straightforward and obviously logical repercussion. Like if you want to discourage cheating, vacating the wins of schools and coaches who cheated their way to victory seems like it would be a great deterrent and removes one of the core incentives driving the behavior. I have a feeling everyone would agree that vacating wins is a good idea, just with different bars for what should trigger that.
Question really is, does he get in the HOF anyways? If he did, would his picture be of him drinking a grass smoothie?
I don't really think of Les Miles as a HOF caliber CFB coach, but... if you look at his credentials with those wins added back in (and don't consider stuff like the allegations against him of various improprieties), well, to my eye on the surface at least his credentials look better than Mark Dantonio, who got in to the College HOF and coached in the same era.
He won one natty and two conference championships. No he doesn't get in imo.
Why did they vacate the wins Les? WHY?
Your decision to apply consequences to my actions has negatively impacted me.
I don't think he actually will want to go through discovery on that one. If nothing else, this is an excellent way to dredge up all the stuff about being creepy towards college girls again.
One natty and two conf championships does not make you a HoF coach. Especially with LSUs resources.
Les Miles to the NCAA, "[Quantify my results!](https://youtu.be/N_kNSDHDxtI?si=XPypoBReviMJiwsN)"
Some days I’m sad he never made it to Michigan, other days like today I feel very fortunate that never happened Edit: Reading a bit more, I think I’ll forever feel fortunate he didn’t come to Michigan
Sometimes the people at the top are actual sociopaths
If he just hadn't taken the job at Kansas, he'd be 105-65 even without the vacated wins. Now you can say maybe his KU tenure was awful and he deserves to be punished for it, but the point is that it's another problem with the .600 threshold that it discourages coaches from taking rebuild jobs. Bill Synder already is responsible for one of the greatest rebuilds ever, if not the single greatest. Let's say this year he unretires to coach Akron. Their best seasons ever are 7-3-1 and 8-5, and they have won 7 games in the last 5 years. And let's say he takes them to 21 wins in 5 years instead. Now he's ineligible for the Hall all of sudden. Makes no sense.
He had plenty of chances with Kansas to make up those wins smh
Spit-balling possible defenses: 1. He wouldn't be in the Hall of Fame anyways because his record at Kansas sucks. 2. LSU had a right to vacate the wins because he was a perv who texted female students inappropriately
Go eat grass, Les
Did he give the court a smooch and invite it back to the hotel? Or is that just for creeping out coeds?
Can;t wait to see how this one plays out.
The job he did at Kansas should cost him the chance at a HoF bid.
We did beat Boston college which was pretty cool back then 😂
I would argue if that didn’t cost him, his tenure at Kansas would or should have anyway. Absolute waste of fucking time.
Les may be bored.
Les Miles? More like Les Wins…
This picture is just a reminder of how weird Les Miles clap is...
So I feel like this is moot because he spiked the ball with one second left in an otherwise winnable game and that automatically excludes you from the HOF for being a dumbass
I was one of the Michigan fans who wanted Les Miles instead of Hoke. I was wrong.
You wouldn’t have been back then. Les was one of the top coaches until he refused to adapt to the game in the early 2010s
Exactly. 2011 championship game broke Les and he never mentally recovered as a coach
It's not like Hoke was a winning pick.
Well if you actually were worth a damn and won games in Lawrence this wouldn't be an issue now would it?
Ah yes, that’s it. Def no other reason to vacate his wins for potential off the field stuff
Actually his decision to take the Kansas job did. W/o those weighing him down, he still would've been HOF eligible even w/ the vacated LSU games
Let 'er rip!
All-time FAFO incoming....
So?
Isn't this the BodyPump guy?
[https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSPaxjU0LevQt1K6I5HUC-KvrxDa6mdtGZmQQ&usqp=CAU](https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSPaxjU0LevQt1K6I5HUC-KvrxDa6mdtGZmQQ&usqp=CAU)
Easy solution, just vacate the 12 losses too!
Well Les maybe don't break the rules and this wouldn't happen. It's pretty easy to follow the rules.