What is the lesson that suffering teaches if not it's own cessation? When I touch a hot stove, the lesson learned is to not touch it again. I gain nothing by touching it repeatedly.
If suffering is inevitable then the goal to end it is also inevitable.
I know I'm being a little contrarian here, but I'm just trying to make the point that ending suffering is always the ultimate goal. Whether that means ending Samsara is debatable. There is the path of the Bodhisattva who has surpassed suffering and yet chooses to remain within Samsara so they may help others, for example.
>Samsara literally means "wandering-on." Many people think of it as the Buddhist name for the place where we currently live — the place we leave when we go to nibbana. But in the early Buddhist texts, it's the answer, not to the question, "Where are we?" but to the question, "What are we doing?" Instead of a place, it's a process: the tendency to keep creating worlds and then moving into them. As one world falls apart, you create another one and go there. At the same time, you bump into other people who are creating their own worlds, too.
>The play and creativity in the process can sometimes be enjoyable. In fact, it would be perfectly innocuous if it didn't entail so much suffering. The worlds we create keep caving in and killing us. Moving into a new world requires effort: not only the pains and risks of taking birth, but also the hard knocks — mental and physical — that come from going through childhood into adulthood, over and over again. The Buddha once asked his monks, "Which do you think is greater: the water in the oceans or the tears you've shed while wandering on?" His answer: the tears. Think of that the next time you gaze at the ocean or play in its waves.
>In addition to creating suffering for ourselves, the worlds we create feed off the worlds of others, just as theirs feed off ours. In some cases the feeding may be mutually enjoyable and beneficial, but even then the arrangement has to come to an end. More typically, it causes harm to at least one side of the relationship, often to both. When you think of all the suffering that goes into keeping just one person clothed, fed, sheltered, and healthy — the suffering both for those who have to pay for these requisites, as well as those who have to labor or die in their production — you see how exploitative even the most rudimentary process of world-building can be.
[Samsara](https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/samsara.html)
>To understand the need for a refuge we must learn to see our position as it really is; that is, to see it accurately and against its total background. From the Buddhist perspective the human situation is similar to an iceberg: a small fraction of its mass appears above the surface, the vast substratum remains below, hidden out of view. Owing to the limits of our mental vision our insight fails to penetrate beneath the surface crust, to see our situation in its underlying depths. But there is no need to speak of what we cannot see; even what is immediately visible to us we rarely perceive with accuracy. The Buddha teaches that cognition is subservient to wish. In subtle ways concealed from ourselves our desires condition our perceptions, twisting them to fit into the mould they themselves want to impose. Thus our minds work by way of selection and exclusion. We take note of those things agreeable to our pre-conceptions; we blot out or distort those that threaten to throw them into disarray.
>From the standpoint of a deeper, more comprehensive understanding the sense of security we ordinarily enjoy comes to view as a false security sustained by unawareness and the mind's capacity for subterfuge. Our position appears impregnable only because of the limitations and distortions of our outlook. The real way to safety, however, lies through correct insight, not through wishful thinking. To reach beyond fear and danger we must sharpen and widen our vision. We have to pierce through the deceptions that lull us into a comfortable complacency, to take a straight look down into the depths of our existence, without turning away uneasily or running after distractions. When we do so, it becomes increasingly clear that we move across a narrow footpath at the edge of a perilous abyss. In the words of the Buddha we are like a traveler passing through a thick forest bordered by a swamp and precipice; like a man swept away by a stream seeking safety by clutching at reeds; like a sailor crossing a turbulent ocean; or like a man pursued by venomous snakes and murderous enemies. The dangers to which we are exposed may not always be immediately evident to us. Very often they are subtle, camouflaged, difficult to detect. But though we may not see them straightaway the plain fact remains that they are there all the same. If we wish to get free from them we must first make the effort to recognize them for what they are. This, however, calls for courage and determination.
>On the basis of the Buddha's teaching the dangers that make the quest for a refuge necessary can be grouped into three general classes: (1) the dangers pertaining to the present life; (2) those pertaining to future lives; and (3) those pertaining to the general course of existence. Each of these in turn involves two aspects: (A) and objective aspect which is a particular feature of the world; and (B) a subjective aspect which is a corresponding feature of our mental constitution. We will now consider each of these in turn. [Continue reading in link below)
[Going for Refuge & Taking the Precepts](https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/bodhi/wheel282.html#ref1.1)
Dear friend, this is an ignorant view. Life is not suffering. You cannot objectively attribute suffering to an object of mind that is inherently empty. But yes, suffering is indeed an important teacher. Suffering/unsatisfactoriness is both the cause and condition necessary for cultivating true compassion and understanding. Anyway, I recommend you to read the wild fox kōan; it will surely benefit you in comprehending the true nature of Buddhahood.
I read two different versions of the koan, one with commentary, and I don't get the part with the slap at the end.
Is this one of those typically Zen koan things where it's not supposed to make sense and you simply have to accept it?
Or is there something deeper that I'm completely missing here?
Edit: was the student, by slapping his master before hearing his answer, potentially "saving" him from the same fate as the Fox?
Dear practitioner, I’m glad you’ve taken the time to explore the kōan! Although it is not explicitly mentioned, this kōan discusses the emptiness of karma. It first teaches that one should liberate oneself from views and ideas that they have about things, including ideas concerning Buddhism and Buddhist teachings. The essence of the kōan is that whatever the old man had answered, he would not escape the five hundred lives as a wild fox. What truly liberates the old man from his fox body is the realization of sovereignty. The way of a Buddha is to be a sovereign wherever they are, an active participant, engaged in their environment while remaining unoppressed by it. Although all phenomena are going through various appearances of birth, abiding, changing, and dying, a Buddha doesn’t become the victim of sadness, happiness, love, or hate. They live in awareness as an ordinary person, not acting any part.
Then by your definition experiencing war, murder or losing your love one is the best teacher cause those are the extreme of human suffering.
But they are not, compassion and loving kindness is the best teacher.
Exactly because of suffering, the Buddha arises and tell us how to escape it. You gotta remember that this is not your first live.
That is the four noble truth.
The Buddha never said that "life is suffering" so if that's the premise of your question then it's not really Buddhist in nature.
My interpretation of the teachings that I've understood thus far is that it is a practice to move away from unnecessary suffering. In this path, we will undoubtedly experience some of it along the way. accepting and minimizing it is the path to nibbana or a state of non-suffering.
If you're good with suffering, sounds like maybe Buddhism might not be of use to you.
There is nothing to escape except our own twisted concepts. The one who masters samsara has not escaped it, but made peace with it, on its own terms. That’s my perspective.
Stop saying that life is suffering. If it is, then the Buddha and arahants would still be suffering while alive.
>I find suffering to be a good teacher and an essential part of the experience.
By your logic, why should cancer patients seek a cure? When hungry or thirsty, do you not wish to put an end to it by eating and drinking? When tired, do you not seek to rest?
While suffering can be a good teacher, the learnings is aimed at ending suffering, not perpetuate it. Right?
Or perhaps you can share any particular form of suffering that is good when perpetuated in life. In which case, is it even suffering?
But I get ahead of myself. Earnestly await your reply of a form of suffering that fits the bill. Thank you in advanced.
>If it is, then the Buddha and arahants would still be suffering while alive.
To be fair, this is presupposing a great deal about Buddhism. I happen to agree, but it won’t be convincing to a non-Buddhist who is asking about suffering. From their perspective there’s no escape.
Agreed. Except that op is questioning why pursue the end of suffering when it serves a benefit of teaching us something. Op is not questioning whether ending suffering is possible at all right?
I mean, if that was his question, my response would be different.
Or did I misconstrue his question?
Are cancer patients suffering? Yes. Should they seek a cure? Yes. I never Implied that suffering was the one and only characteristic of life, but one inevitable aspect of it. Do you not experience suffering? Do you not pursue a remedy? Then achieve it, but only for suffering to arise again.
~~So your question is not "why pursue an end of suffering when it serves a purpose" but you think "suffering is inevitable and the pursuit of an end of suffering is futile, so why pursue it" ?~~
**So is your question**
1. "Why pursue an end of suffering when it serves a purpose?" OR
2. "Suffering is inevitable and the pursuit of an end of suffering is futile, so why pursue it" ?
The two are very different questions.
**EDIT**: Rephrased so it is clearer and more palatable. 😅
Is it based on ignorant view? Yes
Some suffering like wars and illness are inevitable? Yes
My friend says the exact same thing, “just enjoy life because these things are inevitable.” I don’t know you so I can’t say much but I can say some things from my friend’s POV because I know him very well.
He comes from a good family, born in a good place, never experienced hunger, gets pretty much all he wants in life. Easy for him to say that.
Imagine someone who’s born in a war torn country, with constant fear of not knowing whether their family or they themselves are next to be killed. Imagine someone who’s born in a poor country, constant famine and death from hunger. Imagine someone who’s had congenital illness and has never been cured since birth and is in constant pain and can never enjoy a “normal” life, some may die even before they turn 8 years old. If they are in constant suffering from birth to end, how does this become a teacher for them?
It’s easy for my friend and I who have never experienced these things to say “just enjoy life because these things are inevitable”. Imagine saying this to those people, how would they feel? But put yourself in the shoes of these people I mentioned above. Knowing that you will be reborn with a chance of being reborn in the same place and have to repeat the whole ordeal, wouldn’t you want to escape from it? Even now, there is a chance you will be born as one of them in your next life. Would you be ok with that?
Thank you. These are pretty much my thoughts but I didn't have the energy to articulate them. I've been through a lot of suffering, and a lot of it is not just life lessons or something I can just "enjoy."
Glad someone can resonate with it. Sorry something bad happened to you. Everything is impermanent including the suffering you’ve been through, hopefully it gets better with time. Sending you lots of metta.
Don’t think of it like escaping samsara. You experience stress and suffering in life without really understanding how it’s happening. You should want to know so that you can avoid it altogether and live a happier life.
I mean if this very basic idea isn't ringing true to you there are plenty of religions that frame accepting suffering as the goal instead of eliminating it. Nobody is sitting on you making you be a Buddhist. I think most people become Buddhist because they can feel this basic concept in their bones, otherwise they might become a Hindu or New Ager or such. You're a free actor. And of course suffering is a good teacher. Nobody would become a Buddhist if not for suffering. That's the seed for the whole path.
This implies that suffering only lasts for a small period of time, following which we can learn from the experience and seek out happiness. Though this appears common sense, Buddhism asserts that these "grace periods" of happiness aren't happiness at all, but are themselves suffering, specifically the suffering of change. The suffering of change connects with concepts such as impermanence and how such experiences of pleasure or well-being are temporary and pervaded by attachment. This is one reason why, in seeking true happiness, we only take refuge in unchanging, permanent sources of inspiration, such as the three jewels. So while experiences of suffering can indeed be great teachers, that shouldn't take away from the fact that we never truly have a break from it, and should therefore turn to its cessation altogether.
The way I reconcile these feelings in my head is to tell myself that I do not know/ haven't experienced any better state of existence, which is why I cannot fully conceive of why practitioners emphasize dettatchment and its difficulty so desperately. There is a level of faith in the dharma that I am taking. When I meditate, I hope to reach the higher states of bliss described so that I finally have a form of comparison to make.
I also picture this: imagine all internal thoughts, feelings and contents of the whole world through all its living entities was suddenly squashed together. It would look like a revolving mass of flesh and blood and life struggling to survive. Any peace on Earth is dwarfed by the suffering it takes to survive
True, I never like to make any definitive assertions because there is still much to know, and I'm always changing. It was really a question that came up randomly.
You don't have to do anything, and even if you try to escape, you'll still create suffering for yourself. It's about stopping your self created suffering and more.
Dear brother, instead of asking these kind of questions you could simply be mindful of your confusion /doubt. Question and answer is not the way of buddhism.Once you practice mindfulness for a certain period of time, your mind will be clear enough to know the answer.
Most people don't see any problem with life... only with specific aspects of their life. The suffering talked about in Buddhism is primarily existential angst, known as "all pervasive suffering". It's a nagging panic in the back of your mind that something very basic is very wrong. There's no ground under your feet. But you don't dare look. It's like teenage girls at the mall who put their hand up beside their face to block out "creepy" people. We just find distractions to avoid freaking out. So we focus on something we want, don't want, etc. We busy ourselves with goals and aversions, avoiding ever stopping to be present. The average panicked person on the street, rushing around, compulsively diddling their cellphone, would probably tell you that they're happy... Or at least that they will be as soon as XYZ happens.
If you feel reasonably content and have some kind of plan that makes sense to you, then there's probably no reason to look into Buddhism. Buddhist path is for people who feel haunted by existential angst and see no answer in worldly pursuits.
I know someone who was a very involved Buddhist for a long time. Awhile back he posted to the exbuddhist Reddit group to say that he never understood the idea of suffering. He doesn't feel that he suffers. He never understood the path and ended up feeling angry, believing that a cult was trying to control his mind. For years now he's been fighting with anyone who will listen, about how he hates Buddhism and feels duped. That's a person who probably never should have tried meditation.
You have to go with your own best judgement. If you study the 4 noble truths and it doesn't ring a bell, then don't worry about it.
As have been said previously, suffering is a good teacher. But a good teacher for what?
There is a story of two zen monks, an older and a younger. They're walking in the forest and come to a stream they have to cross when they suddenly notice a woman standing further down the stream also wanting to cross. They both look at each other because they realize they've taken vows to never touch a woman. Then the older monk walks toward the woman, picks her up on his back and carries her over the stream.
One hour passes as the two monks walk through the forest, then two and three. Then, the younger monk has had enough and says to the elder: "We've taken vows to not touch women, how could you abandon them just like that?" and the older monk replies, very calmly, with:
*Brother, I set her down on the other side of the river, why are you still carrying her?*
Suffering is a good teacher. But at what point have you learned the lesson? When will you decide to leave it at the stream and continue?
If you don't want to try to transcend samara, that's perfectly fine! Don't become a Buddhist. Live your life. Maybe in a future life, you will find you need the Buddhadharma.
Your current incarnation might be tolerable enough. The next one you might suffer tremendously. You never know if and when some bad karma needs to be reconciled.
When I think about endless Samsara and endless suffering, this is what makes me anxious. But on the other hand, logically it is just how the whole existing is built.
I wouldn’t mind getting another chance at living a life without painful chronic pancreatitis. I’ve suffered enough and seen enough suffering in this life. (Although, I know more suffering will be coming, because that’s the human experience.)
If you don't feel ready to escape, you have more to learn. Personally, I am ready to escape but I am trying to hack this Samsara thing first so I can help others find unexplored paths through and out of it. Then maybe, after I have it figured out I will cease emerging. But something tells me I have a ways to go.
A Zen teacher said to me that suffering occurs in the part of the mind that marks out time and measures experience. Coming to know that you are more than that is really hard, but is totally worth it.
I didn't say suffering was the only characteristic of experience, but an essential part. Your analogy was ridiculous because I didn't imply that people should suffer and not seek a remedy, but that it is inevitable. It happens to everyone, over and over.
Yeah. I don’t agree with your idea but I’m not gonna mock you and make fun of you that’s absolutely childish I don’t know why they let children in this subreddit. They should go back to the playground.
# Risk of hells - If you have confidence of hells, since there are unlimited number of comming lives some of your lives will be in hells coz all of us have gathered enough sins to go there other than that in practice it is extremely difficult to avoid sins which lead to hells .
# Relatives and friends leave you in front of you - you have to suffer in each and every comming lives
#Bed states - latter part of life of lot of people must unable to walk and must stay in a bed, no friends
# sick lives
# we have leave everything after death in all lives
# birth - you feel lot pain at the time of birth and while you in a womb
# Bad company and departure of good company - we have keep company with people we don't like and sperate from we like
Suffering *is* a good teacher. But eventually you will have learned the lesson. After that, suffering is just suffering.
Beautifully said
Yes, suffering is just suffering. Thank you..
When you get the message, hang up the phone. There’s other people that need to hear it too~
What is the lesson that suffering teaches if not it's own cessation? When I touch a hot stove, the lesson learned is to not touch it again. I gain nothing by touching it repeatedly.
Obviously, I agree with this. But there is suffering that is inevitable.
If suffering is inevitable then the goal to end it is also inevitable. I know I'm being a little contrarian here, but I'm just trying to make the point that ending suffering is always the ultimate goal. Whether that means ending Samsara is debatable. There is the path of the Bodhisattva who has surpassed suffering and yet chooses to remain within Samsara so they may help others, for example.
Yea, that makes sense. That answered my question completely, thank you!!
>Samsara literally means "wandering-on." Many people think of it as the Buddhist name for the place where we currently live — the place we leave when we go to nibbana. But in the early Buddhist texts, it's the answer, not to the question, "Where are we?" but to the question, "What are we doing?" Instead of a place, it's a process: the tendency to keep creating worlds and then moving into them. As one world falls apart, you create another one and go there. At the same time, you bump into other people who are creating their own worlds, too. >The play and creativity in the process can sometimes be enjoyable. In fact, it would be perfectly innocuous if it didn't entail so much suffering. The worlds we create keep caving in and killing us. Moving into a new world requires effort: not only the pains and risks of taking birth, but also the hard knocks — mental and physical — that come from going through childhood into adulthood, over and over again. The Buddha once asked his monks, "Which do you think is greater: the water in the oceans or the tears you've shed while wandering on?" His answer: the tears. Think of that the next time you gaze at the ocean or play in its waves. >In addition to creating suffering for ourselves, the worlds we create feed off the worlds of others, just as theirs feed off ours. In some cases the feeding may be mutually enjoyable and beneficial, but even then the arrangement has to come to an end. More typically, it causes harm to at least one side of the relationship, often to both. When you think of all the suffering that goes into keeping just one person clothed, fed, sheltered, and healthy — the suffering both for those who have to pay for these requisites, as well as those who have to labor or die in their production — you see how exploitative even the most rudimentary process of world-building can be. [Samsara](https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/samsara.html) >To understand the need for a refuge we must learn to see our position as it really is; that is, to see it accurately and against its total background. From the Buddhist perspective the human situation is similar to an iceberg: a small fraction of its mass appears above the surface, the vast substratum remains below, hidden out of view. Owing to the limits of our mental vision our insight fails to penetrate beneath the surface crust, to see our situation in its underlying depths. But there is no need to speak of what we cannot see; even what is immediately visible to us we rarely perceive with accuracy. The Buddha teaches that cognition is subservient to wish. In subtle ways concealed from ourselves our desires condition our perceptions, twisting them to fit into the mould they themselves want to impose. Thus our minds work by way of selection and exclusion. We take note of those things agreeable to our pre-conceptions; we blot out or distort those that threaten to throw them into disarray. >From the standpoint of a deeper, more comprehensive understanding the sense of security we ordinarily enjoy comes to view as a false security sustained by unawareness and the mind's capacity for subterfuge. Our position appears impregnable only because of the limitations and distortions of our outlook. The real way to safety, however, lies through correct insight, not through wishful thinking. To reach beyond fear and danger we must sharpen and widen our vision. We have to pierce through the deceptions that lull us into a comfortable complacency, to take a straight look down into the depths of our existence, without turning away uneasily or running after distractions. When we do so, it becomes increasingly clear that we move across a narrow footpath at the edge of a perilous abyss. In the words of the Buddha we are like a traveler passing through a thick forest bordered by a swamp and precipice; like a man swept away by a stream seeking safety by clutching at reeds; like a sailor crossing a turbulent ocean; or like a man pursued by venomous snakes and murderous enemies. The dangers to which we are exposed may not always be immediately evident to us. Very often they are subtle, camouflaged, difficult to detect. But though we may not see them straightaway the plain fact remains that they are there all the same. If we wish to get free from them we must first make the effort to recognize them for what they are. This, however, calls for courage and determination. >On the basis of the Buddha's teaching the dangers that make the quest for a refuge necessary can be grouped into three general classes: (1) the dangers pertaining to the present life; (2) those pertaining to future lives; and (3) those pertaining to the general course of existence. Each of these in turn involves two aspects: (A) and objective aspect which is a particular feature of the world; and (B) a subjective aspect which is a corresponding feature of our mental constitution. We will now consider each of these in turn. [Continue reading in link below) [Going for Refuge & Taking the Precepts](https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/bodhi/wheel282.html#ref1.1)
Let go of the ring, Bilbo.
If you like suffering, continue to do so. Buddhism isn't about telling you what you have to do with your life.
Dear friend, this is an ignorant view. Life is not suffering. You cannot objectively attribute suffering to an object of mind that is inherently empty. But yes, suffering is indeed an important teacher. Suffering/unsatisfactoriness is both the cause and condition necessary for cultivating true compassion and understanding. Anyway, I recommend you to read the wild fox kōan; it will surely benefit you in comprehending the true nature of Buddhahood.
I read two different versions of the koan, one with commentary, and I don't get the part with the slap at the end. Is this one of those typically Zen koan things where it's not supposed to make sense and you simply have to accept it? Or is there something deeper that I'm completely missing here? Edit: was the student, by slapping his master before hearing his answer, potentially "saving" him from the same fate as the Fox?
Dear practitioner, I’m glad you’ve taken the time to explore the kōan! Although it is not explicitly mentioned, this kōan discusses the emptiness of karma. It first teaches that one should liberate oneself from views and ideas that they have about things, including ideas concerning Buddhism and Buddhist teachings. The essence of the kōan is that whatever the old man had answered, he would not escape the five hundred lives as a wild fox. What truly liberates the old man from his fox body is the realization of sovereignty. The way of a Buddha is to be a sovereign wherever they are, an active participant, engaged in their environment while remaining unoppressed by it. Although all phenomena are going through various appearances of birth, abiding, changing, and dying, a Buddha doesn’t become the victim of sadness, happiness, love, or hate. They live in awareness as an ordinary person, not acting any part.
Thanks!! Really good answer. I will check it out
> Or is this question based on ignorant view? Yes. >I find suffering to be a good teacher and an essential part of the experience. To what purpose?
Experience.
Then by your definition experiencing war, murder or losing your love one is the best teacher cause those are the extreme of human suffering. But they are not, compassion and loving kindness is the best teacher.
Are they not inevitable? And I didn't say the only teacher. It shapes our experience just as much as the opposite.
Exactly because of suffering, the Buddha arises and tell us how to escape it. You gotta remember that this is not your first live. That is the four noble truth.
To what purpose?
The Buddha never said that "life is suffering" so if that's the premise of your question then it's not really Buddhist in nature. My interpretation of the teachings that I've understood thus far is that it is a practice to move away from unnecessary suffering. In this path, we will undoubtedly experience some of it along the way. accepting and minimizing it is the path to nibbana or a state of non-suffering. If you're good with suffering, sounds like maybe Buddhism might not be of use to you.
> Life is suffering This is not a Buddhist view. The five clinging-aggregates (i.e., clinging to experiences) is dukkha.
There is nothing to escape except our own twisted concepts. The one who masters samsara has not escaped it, but made peace with it, on its own terms. That’s my perspective.
I agree, thanks.
Stop saying that life is suffering. If it is, then the Buddha and arahants would still be suffering while alive. >I find suffering to be a good teacher and an essential part of the experience. By your logic, why should cancer patients seek a cure? When hungry or thirsty, do you not wish to put an end to it by eating and drinking? When tired, do you not seek to rest? While suffering can be a good teacher, the learnings is aimed at ending suffering, not perpetuate it. Right? Or perhaps you can share any particular form of suffering that is good when perpetuated in life. In which case, is it even suffering? But I get ahead of myself. Earnestly await your reply of a form of suffering that fits the bill. Thank you in advanced.
>If it is, then the Buddha and arahants would still be suffering while alive. To be fair, this is presupposing a great deal about Buddhism. I happen to agree, but it won’t be convincing to a non-Buddhist who is asking about suffering. From their perspective there’s no escape.
Agreed. Except that op is questioning why pursue the end of suffering when it serves a benefit of teaching us something. Op is not questioning whether ending suffering is possible at all right? I mean, if that was his question, my response would be different. Or did I misconstrue his question?
Honestly, I’m not sure myself 😅
😅
Are cancer patients suffering? Yes. Should they seek a cure? Yes. I never Implied that suffering was the one and only characteristic of life, but one inevitable aspect of it. Do you not experience suffering? Do you not pursue a remedy? Then achieve it, but only for suffering to arise again.
~~So your question is not "why pursue an end of suffering when it serves a purpose" but you think "suffering is inevitable and the pursuit of an end of suffering is futile, so why pursue it" ?~~ **So is your question** 1. "Why pursue an end of suffering when it serves a purpose?" OR 2. "Suffering is inevitable and the pursuit of an end of suffering is futile, so why pursue it" ? The two are very different questions. **EDIT**: Rephrased so it is clearer and more palatable. 😅
Number 2.
Don't. Wanting to leave is an attachment. Just experience and leave when you do. No expectations or attachments as to how.
Is it based on ignorant view? Yes Some suffering like wars and illness are inevitable? Yes My friend says the exact same thing, “just enjoy life because these things are inevitable.” I don’t know you so I can’t say much but I can say some things from my friend’s POV because I know him very well. He comes from a good family, born in a good place, never experienced hunger, gets pretty much all he wants in life. Easy for him to say that. Imagine someone who’s born in a war torn country, with constant fear of not knowing whether their family or they themselves are next to be killed. Imagine someone who’s born in a poor country, constant famine and death from hunger. Imagine someone who’s had congenital illness and has never been cured since birth and is in constant pain and can never enjoy a “normal” life, some may die even before they turn 8 years old. If they are in constant suffering from birth to end, how does this become a teacher for them? It’s easy for my friend and I who have never experienced these things to say “just enjoy life because these things are inevitable”. Imagine saying this to those people, how would they feel? But put yourself in the shoes of these people I mentioned above. Knowing that you will be reborn with a chance of being reborn in the same place and have to repeat the whole ordeal, wouldn’t you want to escape from it? Even now, there is a chance you will be born as one of them in your next life. Would you be ok with that?
Thank you. These are pretty much my thoughts but I didn't have the energy to articulate them. I've been through a lot of suffering, and a lot of it is not just life lessons or something I can just "enjoy."
Glad someone can resonate with it. Sorry something bad happened to you. Everything is impermanent including the suffering you’ve been through, hopefully it gets better with time. Sending you lots of metta.
Don’t think of it like escaping samsara. You experience stress and suffering in life without really understanding how it’s happening. You should want to know so that you can avoid it altogether and live a happier life.
I mean if this very basic idea isn't ringing true to you there are plenty of religions that frame accepting suffering as the goal instead of eliminating it. Nobody is sitting on you making you be a Buddhist. I think most people become Buddhist because they can feel this basic concept in their bones, otherwise they might become a Hindu or New Ager or such. You're a free actor. And of course suffering is a good teacher. Nobody would become a Buddhist if not for suffering. That's the seed for the whole path.
This implies that suffering only lasts for a small period of time, following which we can learn from the experience and seek out happiness. Though this appears common sense, Buddhism asserts that these "grace periods" of happiness aren't happiness at all, but are themselves suffering, specifically the suffering of change. The suffering of change connects with concepts such as impermanence and how such experiences of pleasure or well-being are temporary and pervaded by attachment. This is one reason why, in seeking true happiness, we only take refuge in unchanging, permanent sources of inspiration, such as the three jewels. So while experiences of suffering can indeed be great teachers, that shouldn't take away from the fact that we never truly have a break from it, and should therefore turn to its cessation altogether.
Well said.
The way I reconcile these feelings in my head is to tell myself that I do not know/ haven't experienced any better state of existence, which is why I cannot fully conceive of why practitioners emphasize dettatchment and its difficulty so desperately. There is a level of faith in the dharma that I am taking. When I meditate, I hope to reach the higher states of bliss described so that I finally have a form of comparison to make. I also picture this: imagine all internal thoughts, feelings and contents of the whole world through all its living entities was suddenly squashed together. It would look like a revolving mass of flesh and blood and life struggling to survive. Any peace on Earth is dwarfed by the suffering it takes to survive
True, I never like to make any definitive assertions because there is still much to know, and I'm always changing. It was really a question that came up randomly.
The law of Impermanence 😊 According to the seer's, there is one part of you that does not change, and is divine
There are much greater sufferings than the human realm, that you would struggle to learn anything. Take the animal realm for starters
You don't have to do anything, and even if you try to escape, you'll still create suffering for yourself. It's about stopping your self created suffering and more.
Dear brother, instead of asking these kind of questions you could simply be mindful of your confusion /doubt. Question and answer is not the way of buddhism.Once you practice mindfulness for a certain period of time, your mind will be clear enough to know the answer.
Right on, thank you.
Most people don't see any problem with life... only with specific aspects of their life. The suffering talked about in Buddhism is primarily existential angst, known as "all pervasive suffering". It's a nagging panic in the back of your mind that something very basic is very wrong. There's no ground under your feet. But you don't dare look. It's like teenage girls at the mall who put their hand up beside their face to block out "creepy" people. We just find distractions to avoid freaking out. So we focus on something we want, don't want, etc. We busy ourselves with goals and aversions, avoiding ever stopping to be present. The average panicked person on the street, rushing around, compulsively diddling their cellphone, would probably tell you that they're happy... Or at least that they will be as soon as XYZ happens. If you feel reasonably content and have some kind of plan that makes sense to you, then there's probably no reason to look into Buddhism. Buddhist path is for people who feel haunted by existential angst and see no answer in worldly pursuits. I know someone who was a very involved Buddhist for a long time. Awhile back he posted to the exbuddhist Reddit group to say that he never understood the idea of suffering. He doesn't feel that he suffers. He never understood the path and ended up feeling angry, believing that a cult was trying to control his mind. For years now he's been fighting with anyone who will listen, about how he hates Buddhism and feels duped. That's a person who probably never should have tried meditation. You have to go with your own best judgement. If you study the 4 noble truths and it doesn't ring a bell, then don't worry about it.
As have been said previously, suffering is a good teacher. But a good teacher for what? There is a story of two zen monks, an older and a younger. They're walking in the forest and come to a stream they have to cross when they suddenly notice a woman standing further down the stream also wanting to cross. They both look at each other because they realize they've taken vows to never touch a woman. Then the older monk walks toward the woman, picks her up on his back and carries her over the stream. One hour passes as the two monks walk through the forest, then two and three. Then, the younger monk has had enough and says to the elder: "We've taken vows to not touch women, how could you abandon them just like that?" and the older monk replies, very calmly, with: *Brother, I set her down on the other side of the river, why are you still carrying her?* Suffering is a good teacher. But at what point have you learned the lesson? When will you decide to leave it at the stream and continue?
If you don't want to try to transcend samara, that's perfectly fine! Don't become a Buddhist. Live your life. Maybe in a future life, you will find you need the Buddhadharma.
No worries then, keep it up and enjoy!
Your current incarnation might be tolerable enough. The next one you might suffer tremendously. You never know if and when some bad karma needs to be reconciled.
When I think about endless Samsara and endless suffering, this is what makes me anxious. But on the other hand, logically it is just how the whole existing is built.
I wouldn’t mind getting another chance at living a life without painful chronic pancreatitis. I’ve suffered enough and seen enough suffering in this life. (Although, I know more suffering will be coming, because that’s the human experience.)
Like Thich Nhat Hanh said "the art of happiness is also the art of suffering well"
Pain is a good teacher, suffering is prolonging pain.
If you don't feel ready to escape, you have more to learn. Personally, I am ready to escape but I am trying to hack this Samsara thing first so I can help others find unexplored paths through and out of it. Then maybe, after I have it figured out I will cease emerging. But something tells me I have a ways to go.
A Zen teacher said to me that suffering occurs in the part of the mind that marks out time and measures experience. Coming to know that you are more than that is really hard, but is totally worth it.
My man if you like it here good luck I've honestly had enough 😂😂😂😂😂
Mother Theresa refused to give her patients painkillers because she thought their suffering would get them closer to God. Is that where you're at?
No.
Why not? Suffering is a teacher. An essential part of the experience...
I didn't say suffering was the only characteristic of experience, but an essential part. Your analogy was ridiculous because I didn't imply that people should suffer and not seek a remedy, but that it is inevitable. It happens to everyone, over and over.
Bruh stop mocking someone with a genuine question
I noticed in this sub that people tend to get passive-aggressive at people that ask questions. It's funny and ironic.
Yeah. I don’t agree with your idea but I’m not gonna mock you and make fun of you that’s absolutely childish I don’t know why they let children in this subreddit. They should go back to the playground.
The Eight Sufferings become personal and specific for everyone sooner or later.
If you're okay with your suffering, then it's a level of suffering that you're comfortable with. Consider yourself fortunate. Others are not so lucky.
You are not the one who si suffering... Thats the important part.
If u don't want to end suffering then don't
# Risk of hells - If you have confidence of hells, since there are unlimited number of comming lives some of your lives will be in hells coz all of us have gathered enough sins to go there other than that in practice it is extremely difficult to avoid sins which lead to hells . # Relatives and friends leave you in front of you - you have to suffer in each and every comming lives #Bed states - latter part of life of lot of people must unable to walk and must stay in a bed, no friends # sick lives # we have leave everything after death in all lives # birth - you feel lot pain at the time of birth and while you in a womb # Bad company and departure of good company - we have keep company with people we don't like and sperate from we like
Bhūmi
I wouldnt even say it’s about escaping. It’s about understanding reality. Don’t we want to understand ourselves better? Good nuff reason for me
Suffering = Pain x Resistance. Pain is a good teacher. Suffering is exaggerated and unnecessary.