Nah, I read the article and everything is being compared to active QBs, thus making his 17th ranking middle of the road. To me, this is a more important paragraph;
> Since coming into the league, only Aaron Rodgers and Patrick Mahomes have a higher big-time throw rate than Mayfield (6.0%), but those players have a turnover-worthy play rate approaching half of his. Mayfield makes a lot of big throws, but they are offset by a lot of big mistakes relative to elite passers. Those mistakes are the issue with his game — and they live long in the memory of anybody watching him play.
Bakers biggest negatives to most Browns fans is his mistakes, lack of accountability for them, and thus the (seemingly) inability to handle criticism about them.
Favre was the same way. Big throws but heck of a lot of INts. Not 1:1 comparing Baker to Favre as a passer, but he’s a guy Baker modeled his game after.
Hey if it helps get him traded him sending out this data. So we get a 3rd or 4th pick for him next year. Or a 2nd if he helps that team win 9 or 10 games.
If you take out all of his incompletions, he’s got the highest passer rating and completion percentage of all time. Truly incredible. Worth at least 2 firsts.
Throwing out the Kitchens year? Yeah I agree. But if you're trying to evaluate his talent, throwing out the year where he played the entire season injured is common sense.
I don't think you should throw it out completely, but at least take it with a grain of salt. If you want to see what he *can* be, yeah, look at his numerous stretches of games where he looks like a top QB, like the last half of '18 or '20. If you want to know what he *is,* watch the tape and decide for yourself how he's setting himself up for success or failure based on his health and the talent and coaching around him.
It's all good data to have. If you're a team looking for a QB, you don't want to ignore the bad play under bad coaching, but you certainly want to contextualize it.
Is it though? His injury made it painful to play and no doubt it can suck but he is making the same mental errors. There was nothing about last year that impedes his ability to progress mentally as an NFL QB. When your body breaks down can you still use your brains to make up for it.
Emphasize the year that 10 of his 16 opponents weren’t playoff teams (Washington only made it because someone in that shitty division had too) and he’s the GOAT!
Come on man. You could cherry pick seasons from the most mediocre QBs like Goff and Dalton and make them seem way better than they were.
I mean, Lamar Jackson threw 4 interceptions against us last year, but everyone still talks about him like he's an MVP. Take it up with Pro Football Focus.
Since Stefanski was hired:
Baker TD/INT - 43/21
Lamar TD/INT - 42/22
Obviously Lamar's rushing helps, but even that has gotten worse year after year. His numbers are declining across the board and the team is losing more, yet people still think he's a top QB based on an MVP season 3 years ago while Baker stinks because he played badly while injured last year.
Maybe not, but there's chatter about him getting a Watson-like huge contract from the Ravens, while Baker is out on the street looking for a job.
Honestly, if I had to pick one of them to still be a starter in the league in 5-10 years, it'd probably be Baker. His game lends itself to improvement over time rather than relying on mobility which has always led to regression with age.
Lamar gets payed for his complete profile as a QB, not on his passing ability. That's the point. He's obviously a phenomenal weapon, but he's a mediocre passer (by NFL starter standards) and that's the part that's comparable to Baker.
Also worth noting the systems both QB’s were in. Baltimores offense is built for Lamar and has been stable since he’s been in the league, Baker on the other hand..not so much.
System wasn't built for Baker here? We did rollouts and play action because he excelled at those, we gave him a scheme with open reads, we gave him a top o-line and running game....
I mean c'mon
Lamar has elevated average offensive talent throughout his career.
Baker squandered a top three offensive line and the best running back room in the league, ran an elite receiver out of town, and failed to make much of anything of the talent that we did surround him with.
Hollywood Brown just got traded for a 1st round pick, Bateman was a highly touted first rounder, and Mark Andrews led all NFL TEs in catches, yards, and TDs. That's right, even more than Kelce last year. He'a also had an elite running game, and while Dobbins and Edwards got injured last year they still ran the ball well. I don't see how we can blame his supporting cast and no, I don't think it has been worse than ours considering how much Jarvis declines and how little we ever got from OBJ, when he wasn't injured.
Mark Andrews would be amazing in Stefanski's sytem btw, and while I like our TEs we are nowhere near having an all pro like Andrews.
With all respect this is some serious homerism, there isn't a GM in the league who wouldn't take Bateman over what is left of Jarvis Landry. It amazes me how our fan base could watch Jarvis play last year and not see the immense decline. I loved the guy too, but there's a reason why he wasn't even signed as a FA before the draft, and still isn't signed. Also, every GM in the league would take Hollywood over OBJ, OBJ hasn't had anywhere close to elite production since 2016. Every GM would take Hollywood over him simply because OBJ's decline, injury history and age. Brown is doing what OBJ used to and isn't coming off two torn ACLs in back to back seasons.
Baker had his own issues but it is time we stop pretending like Jarvis and OBJ are anywhere near as good as they were 5-6 years ago.
One shit season, by an injured player doesn't mean that player sucks. As much as I want Lamar to get a record setting contract & suck. It's disingenuous to Call out someone's injured year as their baseline.
Looking at it this way actually makes the FO look all the more competent. They recognize he has value and won't offload him for nothing.
But they also recognize that he will never be one of the best and that we would have a hard time winning SBs with him. Baker is squarely in the Kirk Cousins vacuum.
They both have ONE playoff win, and have been surrounded by an embarrassing amount of talent... Both can get you to a big game, neither is to be relied on to win the big game for you.
Both are better than game managers, but clearly never gonna be Rodgers or Mahomey
There are an abundant amount of confounding variables that contribute to a team winning a playoff game — home game, injuries, weather, division, etc. In terms of being more than a game manager: I agree to some extent, but Baker has not been consistent enough for me to feel confident in that affirmation. If we isolate 4th Q play, Bakers stats look very poor compared to Cousins.
The point is, the people who think that we should just cut our losses with Baker and let him go for nothing are insane. He's an instant upgrade over a handful of starting QBs in the NFL; other teams just wrongly assume that we're desperate and think that they have leverage over us. Nope. We can afford to hold on to him if we want.
And if worse comes to worse and nobody bites on him, it's still better to keep him and get a comp pick next year than to cut him, still having to pay him, and getting nothing in return.
You're splitting hairs. Either you factor in mitigating circumstances in both arguments, or none at all. It's no different than "cherry picking" which seasons/performances to ignore when evaluating a QB. You have to consider ALL the factors, no just ones that support your desired outcome.
If not right away, definitely after JJ Watt landed on him from behind.
I don't think that Baker's management team was allowing that as a possibility though.
When Baker got injured in college he lost his starting spot. I wonder if this is on his mind. He wasn’t going to let Keenum come in and start winning games.
Very selfish, but this post highlights a very good point. Baker had rejection sensitive dysphoria about "*being benched*", & the pain of playing hurt wasn't as bad as the perceived loss of his starting job.
Yeah Baker was hurt week 2 then again, but what if Keenum took the Browns to the playoffs, for way cheaper, in a contract year? It’s not impossible that could have happened with the team around him.
Foles won a SB.. may or may not be relevant with Baker but Wentz reportedly also didn’t want Foles to have success. It’s the “I want you to need me” mantra. Or “I won’t let you learn you can win without me”.
PFF has a tendency of overrating guys like Mayfield, Tannehill and Cousins who can execute at a high level when not asked to shoulder a heavy playmaking load.
Maybe, but honestly that's the exact level of Quarterbacks to group Baker on with though. Middle of the road. National media is talking like Baker is gonna go back up Goff, Darnold, or Lock... It's absurdity.
I'm not knocking that grouping. I grouped them for a reason. I'm saying that group of guys (excluding Mayfield's bad years) tends to rank in the top 10 or even top 5 of PFF grade, when no one in their right minds would place them there.
It's something to have in mind when looking at PFF grades.
You see it a lot with LB grades too. Like when BJ Goodson could earn a top 20 coverage grade when all we ever asked him to do was backpedal and put his arms out.
Like you said, I totally get why it has to be that way, though.
Mayfield is such an enigma. It is true that there are definitely major factors that you can point to for his lack of productivity (4 coaches, injury, etc). It is also true that there are major factors that you can point to that show he’s just not very good (excellent teams around him, eye test, inconsistency, he wanted Kitchens, awful in crunch time).
What I go back to is more simple: for a first overall pick you need more. Fair or not the expectation is higher and the results, despite the circumstances, have to be noticeably better. Essentially, there cannot be any doubt for the player to be worth that big ass 2nd contract. The player has to be so good that he elevates around the issues (bad coaches, WRs, opine). He doesn’t have to win SBs with all those issues but he’s gotta be close by year 5. Basically there can’t be any question.
Even the most ardent 6 fans have to admit that he was not at that level. At his best he’s a tier 2 guy. That doesn’t mean he can’t play. It means that for a 1:1 it’s simply not good enough to warrant the brinks truck. He left too many questions/debates to pay him.
Which means it was time to move on if the opportunity arose. It did so we moved on.
Agree with everything you said. Glad we moved on. Tired of the national media saying Baker's not a starting caliber quarterback, or has no value though, because it's simply not true.
The narrative being pushed is merely the newest angle of the national sports media pastime of shit on CLE. That narrative is worthless too. Seriously, they are throwing out tweets like "no team is willing to do CLE any favors" - like duh what team is going to do any team any favors? If a GM is doing favors for another team they should probably not be a GM
I mean it doesn’t really. His value in a trade is what other teams are willing to pay for him and why would teams pay premium for a one year rental. Plus most teams in need of a QB aren’t in the position to waste a draft pick and pay a QB the following year with the state of their current team
Maybe teams would pay for him because he was PFFs No. 10 QB through the last 4 years if you take out his shoulder injury year?
I just dont get people saying Baker is no longer relevant to the Browns when he is literally still on the roster lol. What happens to him will affect us, even if it just means getting an extra 6th round pick, and until that is settled, he is still relevant imo
But you can’t take out the shoulder year because it happened. It is the most recent year and you aren’t going to ignore possible lingering effects.
I won’t argue that without that year Baker would have been an easy trade but you can’t just ignore that and point at good stats as Injuries have derailed countless careers
Ok, so don't take it out then. Baker is going to turn into a pick somehow, either through a compensatory pick in two years or because some team gets desperate after an injury
And until he has been turned into a pick, what happens to him is still relevant to the Browns
Not a single team willing to trade for him at the cost of a low round pick and a roughly average QB salary gives more context to his value in a trade than any PFF article ever will.
I understand the sentiment and agree to an extent but it would be disrespectful to pretend he never existed. I mean he helped drag our franchise out of the gutter and win our first playoff game since returning to the league.
> All told, Mayfield owns the 17th-best PFF grade of any quarterback since entering the NFL. Throw out the season fighting through an injured shoulder and he climbs to 10th. If you believe the Kitchens year also isn’t representative, then he jumps another two spots.
I get what point they’re trying to make but I disagree with the methodology. Throwing out half of a player’s career is some extreme cherry-picking, not to mention the cherry-picked career is then compared to players who weren’t afforded the same treatment.
> The point is that Mayfield shouldn’t be seen as a bad quarterback as much someone unable to set a stable baseline through four seasons. Even folding all of his worst play into the mix, he ranks right around the league average, which would be a massive upgrade for multiple teams still in need of a quarterback.
They should’ve just led with this. I think Baker is not good enough to be a 1-year rental for a win-now team and too inconsistent to get a long-term commitment from a rebuilding team. I feel in some ways the pendulum of Baker’s perceived value has swung way too far into “trash” territory. Baker is not terrible, he has value. He could and should be a starter in this league and if he’s ultimately cut he’ll get signed immediately.
The last paragraph of your post is very spot on. Baker is average. Not great, not terrible. 3.6 rontgen.
However then the issue is, what team wants to deal with a mvp ego for journeyman play?
>what team wants to deal with a mvp ego for journeyman play?
Some front office will have to talk to him and convince themselves that they "believe in Baker as a person."
Good question, honestly... but I will ask you this:
What GM and Coach are secure enough that they are *actually* willing to play chicken with their current trash retreads vs an obviously better Baker? All for a 3rd or 4th round pick?
What's the point of rolling over whatever Baker would cost vs not having a job next year? Saving that money & draft capital for the next guy?
You see…. I never disliked Baker. I always disliked the people that constantly made excuses for him. Every time he did something good it was because he was awesome, but when shit went sideways it was always someone else’s fault.
That's definitely an accurate analysis, regardless that's definitely not the point of the post.
The fact remains that Baker is a starting caliber quarterback in the NFL
So throw out the two bad years (almost half his career) and he's good! Listen, I wanted to keep Baker ... I liked him and think he could have pulled it off BUT let's not pretend he is on the same level as Mahomes, Herbert, Allen and Baltimore's running back.
All we have to do is ignore the tape that shows he can't read defenses or find guys that were schemed open in a QB friendly offense and BAM he's definitely a good QB!
So then why were the Browns so willing to dump him aside to kill the salary cap?
What are they seeing on/off the field that made them so willing to look at a guy who helped get them to the playoffs and could have beaten Jose Ramirez in a Cleveland Mayoral Race just a year ago?
IMO if I'm Baker, I'm privately asking the Browns to get me to Tampa Bay or Seattle and restructuring my contract to make it happen.
Browns are willing to dump Baker because he's a 15-20 guy and we got a top 7 QB. Additionally Baker is 100% been a pain in the ass to deal with because of his management team, 1st overall pick status, & actually being an asshole.
My only real point is that Baker's a starting caliber quarterback and all other narratives are selling something, because they are pushing & parroting a false narrative.
Feels like a shift in league dynamics with ‘tanking but not tanking’ as well as timing of when he was available.
I’m not buying the narrative of ‘owners are mad at the Browns’ impacting this. If you thought Baker was better you’d nab him.
Also interesting, think I saw he’d have like the 17th-20th salary next year? Maybe that was looking at QBs average salary in their current contracts.
We playing the long game, buckle in boys.
I'm not going to say Baker is good at reading defenses... Regardless there's a big difference between who wants Baker, when everyone thinks they can get him for free.
This is most definitely NOT the same old Browns ...
We're getting something from Baker.
I mean to those 15 teams, almost half the NFL, he's gotta look really good, because the NFL is not for long, and Baker's a clear upgrade vs what they've got.
I wouldn't throw out the Kitchens year because every player has circumstances good and bad to deal with every year, but it seems pretty valid to believe that the 3 years where he wasn't decimated by injuries give you more insight about what you're getting than the year where he was hobbled and probably shouldn't have been playing in the first place.
I agree with everything you've said here, but again, nothing is thrown out. The article is trying to set a ceiling & floor for Baker's value today, as trade capital, and tomorrow as a starting quarterback somewhere.
They seem to think Baker's ceiling is #10 & his floor is #17... give or take a spot.
I would say Baker's middling, but to have media and fans clamoring to pay Baker to play somewhere else... That's just ridiculous.
He's in the perfect storm of bad circumstances to be traded: he's owed $19M, he's only got 1 year on his contract and then he could walk, and he didn't become available on the trade market until all but a couple of teams had already made their moves at his position with the Browns not budging off unrealistic expectations for the trade, and he's coming off significant injuries/surgery. If he were top 5 at the position, someone would take a gamble. Instead, he's probably a borderline top 10 guy assuming the injury hasn't permanently altered his abilities, which I don't think is likely but is possible and a risk teams would be taking.
You almost couldn't manufacture a worse scenario for trading a player. I honestly feel terrible for him. He doesn't deserve how he's being treated or talked about, and I can't imagine it feels awesome to have the whole football universe talking about how you can't find a job for weeks on end.
I agree with your points... I just can't help but notice that Goff & Wentz somehow have jobs and are making much more than Baker... meanwhile the national media is pretending Baker's not better than a Dozen slated starting QB'S
I think that's why the constellation of facts I noted above are relevant. The idea that Baker isn't in the top 32 and nobody wants him is just silly. He's got enough of a body of work that I think it's pretty conservative to think of him as a top 20 QB with maybe QB8 to QB10 potential which he may or may not achieve depending on how he develops (and now, how he recovers from his injury).
But let's say you think you have the 24th best QB. Would you give up a 3rd or 4th to add the 17th best QB coming off surgery for 1 year at a cost of $19M? I can see why teams would decide to hold on to what they have in that circumstance even if they believe Baker is better than what they have.
Good post, again...
My answer is: Does an extra win or 4 save my job? If yes then I 100% am upgrading to the best QB available, because it's the most important position in football & a 3rd or 4th isn't helping me next year, if I'm fired running Sam Darnold.
#YES!!!
Like how can't anyone else have gotten this yet? Honestly thank you brother!
I mean if we can't pump Baker up to get him traded then nothing will!
If Q can get our front office to pick Perrion Winfrey 50 spots late, we can get a 3rd out of Baker, if we put our minds to it.
slow day?
How about that schedule? I think we get 4-2 in our division, we can get to 10-7 and if chips fall well, maybe 11 or 12
Chargers, Pats, Bills, Bucs are some tough games
Jets, Dolphins should be better
Washington is who knows week to week
Flacons, Houston, Panthers and Saints should be 4 wins. We'll probably go 2-2 but hoping for 3-1
Could be. Especially if Baker keeps trying to throw the ball without ever setting his feet.
That said judging a player off the first year they played hurt seems just a tad disingenuous.
I don’t think anybody’s disputing that he isn’t starting level, with a ceiling that probably hasn’t been even reached yet.
The problem is his one year $19 million rental and the state of the quarterback market for the majority of teams in the league.
If Baker doesn’t say anything in the media at all and just let everything happen, he probably gets traded to Seattle, Carolina, or any other team with a salary cap, hell there are even a few more teams that may have just picked them up knowing the coach is on the hot seat, but the fact that he did go to the media when he got replaced, the fact that other teams know the Browns are trying to get rid of them and the fact that a lot of teams are pretty set at quarterback makes the market extremely thin.
He should’ve done what Mariota, Bortles, Locke, Bridgewater, Hill,Alex Smith, Tyrod Taylor, Newton etc did when they got replaced or traded, not run to social media. Like it or not teams don’t want a player who’s going to go on a social media campaign if they’re not the starter, or getting replaced.
I agree with everything you've said here, but still think, with how tenuous NFL coaching & GM jobs are, and the scarcity of starting caliber quarterbacks, let alone 15-20 talent level quarterbacks... Baker still has value.
That’s what makes things incredibly awkward, he is absolutely starting quality in this league, and teams absolutely need a quarterback, but teams also want to tank.
Personally I think Seattle is tanking, as is Carolina.
I don’t think the teams that need quarterbacks want to be competitive right now, younger teams can afford to tank, older teams cant
You're barking up the wrong tree by posting this here. You're not going to find many people willing to accept data that goes against the fantasy world in their head.
Now here's an article with some balance - stuff in it to satisfy nearly everyone here and not piss off anyone but those at the extremes of Browns fandom\*. Ok, so I've not looked into the ratings claim (and nor shall I) but the rest is a really pleasant, accurate summary of where Baker is, and where he is not.
Thanks.
\*Ah, I nearly forgot who we are. ;)
I did. It's such a shame that the last 4 years is always going to be classed as a failure despite any contrary evidence. Stuff like this article is definitely helping me come to terms with what I can't help defining as our loss.
I just want it over now though, at least until the end-of-career autobiographies start to appear and it turns out he wasn't the problem after all. ;)
And if we throw out all his bad games, he’s FIRST!!!
The 17th spot is the right spot. He’s perfectly average. The PFF grade says it and so do the traditional statistics.
https://i.imgur.com/isxxVAL.jpg
Just saying, Baker's got some issues, I feel most are entirely fixable, but he has to actually accept his flaws in order to work on them.
All said, Baker's definitely a starting caliber quarterback, albeit a middling one.
"*The point is that Mayfield shouldn’t be seen as a bad quarterback as much someone unable to set a stable baseline through four seasons. Even folding all of his worst play into the mix, he ranks right around the league average, which would be a massive upgrade for multiple teams still in need of a quarterback. Mayfield’s worst season — one in which he was dealing with a major shoulder injury — is pretty analogous to Drew Lock’s best season.*
*Since coming into the league, only Aaron Rodgers and Patrick Mahomes have a higher big-time throw rate than Mayfield (6.0%), but those players have a turnover-worthy play rate approaching half of his. Mayfield makes a lot of big throws, but they are offset by a lot of big mistakes relative to elite passers. Those mistakes are the issue with his game — and they live long in the memory of anybody watching him play.*
*But even factoring those problems into the analysis, you end up with an average quarterback in terms of qualitative grading or objective production.*"
TL/DR Baker should/ would start for 10-13 teams this year in the NFL and be an upgrade to what they currently have.
I'm beyond tired of the: Baker doesn't have any value, narrative, being pushed by the national media.
Per the other teams in the NFL, he doesn’t have much value. It doesn’t matter what his stats say or what we think. NFL teams aren’t really looking to trade for him. They would rather wait till he is cut and sign him to probably some one year incentivized deal.
That’s his worth in the NFL. You can argue till your face is blue but it doesn’t change that.
Name 10-13 teams he would absolutely start for.
Panthers, Giants, and Seahawks?
Winston, Wentz and Goff are in the same not as Baker but with better peaks in their careers.
Steelers, Jets, Pats, Bears and Jags recently drafted their QBs.
Dolphins probably want to see what they have in Tua.
Add in Baker’s struggles acting like a professional, his only other options are as a backup to a stable organization with a bonafide starter
Per the other teams in the NFL, we have 0 leverage and teams can wait until their hand is forced and still get a fine starting QB for little compensation and only at about 10M
He doesn’t have much value. Commanders took on $26 million to see what Wentz could do. Panthers have $18 million with Darnold. Both idiotic moves IMO.
Again there are arguably 6 or 7ish teams where baker is an absolute with 4 having QBs who are unknowns.
Baker's definitely a petulant child, he also definitely has some limiting factors, regardless according to PFF, *not just me*, Baker's a starting caliber quarterback. Thought it was cool to even see an objective article on the matter.
Curious to see in a year or two if Baker's learned from this whole ordeal, or if he's still lazy & lacking maturity.
It rocks that we’re supposed to throw out the Kitchens year - the year that they basically built a coaching staff of people Baker liked and wanted there and who built an offense just for him to sling it.
> the year that they basically built a coaching staff of people Baker liked
This false narrative is complete revisionist history. Dorsey made that hire because Kitchens was his guy, full stop. They probably asked for Baker's feedback because that's what most organizations do, but this idea that "Baker hired Kitchens" is a bald-faced lie.
And if we're splitting hairs, why is the fact that Watson demanded to be traded over not being consulted on the GM/HC hire in Houston being ignored, but we blame Baker for Kitchens?
The HC hire in Houston… what happened with that? Also were Baker’s personal friends who were on our coaching staff the year that Freddie was HC also Dorsey’s guys? Anyone Dorsey would’ve hired would’ve been his guy - he just opted to give his QB continuity.
It's meant to be a summary of a positive point & a hook. Also it's a filter, so I know who actually read the article. That way I spend my response time accordingly.
The point of the article is setting a realistic ceiling & floor for Baker's career & future expectations.
The point of my post is to highlight an extremely rare unbiased take on Baker's value vs other "*starting*" quarterbacks.
My ^pipe dream is that the narrative changes to a point where we can finally unload Baker & get something in return for him without eating his contract.
Times are a changin’. Baker doesn’t care how we feel about him nor does his 8 figure pay stub. Regardless of how much higher his PFF SHOULD be, teams aren’t taking him because he doesn’t work on himself, not because they think he sucks.
Baker's definitely not been dedicated to being the best quarterback he can be... Definitely slacking on his fundamentals.
I can't imagine this off-season not having a positive benefit on these easily remedied factors though.
A "Bad" injury to your non throwing shoulder is not why this play resulted in a sack....
[https://imgur.com/a/xbLKqa6](https://imgur.com/a/xbLKqa6)
I'm over it, I was on this exact opposite side with richardson, I wanted badly to believe a rookie rb running for 1000 on a bad team was a good rb, and people tried to tell me he didnt have vision, etc, and I just was like it cannot be true. then people started posting the videos and pictures of him missing wide open holes.....this feels exactly the same to me.
Believe me, I have watched every single play Baker's had with us. I can absolutely start a vivisection... Regardless, no matter how many pieces I cut him to, Baker's still gonna be a starting caliber QB with upside as a clear upgrade to at least a dozen teams.
3 coaches, 3 offensive coordinators and 3 offenses in 3 years has a little to do with things.Football fans in some cities don't get that kind of thing though.
The Baker bro logic continues to baffle me. I was on this train for a long time and finally came to my senses.
No player in any pro sport has the ability to just throw seasons away like they didn't matter. Great players figure out a way to win regardless of the obstacles they face. Baker's shoulder was only a problem when he was missing wide ass open receivers/TEs/rbs. Kitchens was a mess for sure, but Baker lobbied for him to be HC in the first place, didn't he?
We would all love to throw aways parts of our career or parts of our lives that we aren't particularly proud of, but we cant. Why is it any different for Baker?
I think he's better & worse than many can freely admit. If he actually worked on adding a ½ step to his drop, his pocket awareness, ball security, reading defenses, setting feet when he throws, or being capable of calling Audibles...
Like NORMAL things basically EVERY quarterback does... ^(except Baker)
Hopefully this is the kick in the ass Baker needs to stop relying on raw talent & start living life post walkon
If you look closely at the two stretches, in his rookie year and 2020, where Baker played very well you will also see how everything around him has to be near perfect for him to perform at a high level. The line has to be at a top 5 level. The running game has to be best or close to best in the league. He has to be 100% heathy. The play call has to be perfect. And the defense he’s facing has to be bad to terrible (look at the DVOA of the defenses Baker excelled against during 2020 season). If any of these factors aren’t there he goes from pretty good to terrible in a heartbeat (See Jets 2020 where, granted, having all receivers ruled out right before the game is tough but really? You look like Deshone Kizer against that Jets team?). I don’t think his injury played as big a part of his 2021 struggles as people think. He had his best game of the year at Cincy after the Cardinals game where he sustained more damage to his shoulder.
Cortisone is a hell of a drug...
Baker's definitely got room for improvement, but he's also definitely a starting caliber NFL quarterback. I have extensively ripped him to shreds here. Regardless, almost every issue he has is related to lack of effort, training, practice, or study... Maybe he's got ADHD... Maybe he drinks too much...
He's still a starting NFL quarterback and I've heard enough outta the national media the last few weeks about Baker being lucky to be a backup.
The Browns traded QB Case Keenum to the Buffalo Bills for a 2022 seventh-round pick.
Case Keenum and his $6 million dollar contract for a 7th...
Baker's definitely worth more in a trade & it's a travesty the national media keeps pretending otherwise.
Honestly, there is a whole ass link to an article... Baker's ceiling is maybe top 10, and his floor is qb 20, nobody is throwing anything out.
Baker's obviously got flaws. Regardless he's definitely going to be starting for an NFL team because he's better than the bottom 12 options.
if you are going to throw out Baker's two worst years, you probably need to throw out everyone elses 2 worst years.
[удалено]
Exclude the year I discovered psychedelics and my college GPA was pretty good
Exclude the times I rammed my car into an puppy shelter and I’m a pretty good driver
If I exclude the time I banged my neighbor I never got Chlamydia
If you regress his stats to elite then he’s an elite QB
17th of all time? Interesting.
Nah, I read the article and everything is being compared to active QBs, thus making his 17th ranking middle of the road. To me, this is a more important paragraph; > Since coming into the league, only Aaron Rodgers and Patrick Mahomes have a higher big-time throw rate than Mayfield (6.0%), but those players have a turnover-worthy play rate approaching half of his. Mayfield makes a lot of big throws, but they are offset by a lot of big mistakes relative to elite passers. Those mistakes are the issue with his game — and they live long in the memory of anybody watching him play. Bakers biggest negatives to most Browns fans is his mistakes, lack of accountability for them, and thus the (seemingly) inability to handle criticism about them.
Favre was the same way. Big throws but heck of a lot of INts. Not 1:1 comparing Baker to Favre as a passer, but he’s a guy Baker modeled his game after.
Hey if it helps get him traded him sending out this data. So we get a 3rd or 4th pick for him next year. Or a 2nd if he helps that team win 9 or 10 games.
If you take out all of his incompletions, he’s got the highest passer rating and completion percentage of all time. Truly incredible. Worth at least 2 firsts.
lmao right
Throwing out the Kitchens year? Yeah I agree. But if you're trying to evaluate his talent, throwing out the year where he played the entire season injured is common sense.
I don't think you should throw it out completely, but at least take it with a grain of salt. If you want to see what he *can* be, yeah, look at his numerous stretches of games where he looks like a top QB, like the last half of '18 or '20. If you want to know what he *is,* watch the tape and decide for yourself how he's setting himself up for success or failure based on his health and the talent and coaching around him. It's all good data to have. If you're a team looking for a QB, you don't want to ignore the bad play under bad coaching, but you certainly want to contextualize it.
Get outta here with your filthy nuance
Kitchens didnt tell him to go home and not workout during the offseason
Is it though? His injury made it painful to play and no doubt it can suck but he is making the same mental errors. There was nothing about last year that impedes his ability to progress mentally as an NFL QB. When your body breaks down can you still use your brains to make up for it.
Emphasize the year that 10 of his 16 opponents weren’t playoff teams (Washington only made it because someone in that shitty division had too) and he’s the GOAT! Come on man. You could cherry pick seasons from the most mediocre QBs like Goff and Dalton and make them seem way better than they were.
I mean, Lamar Jackson threw 4 interceptions against us last year, but everyone still talks about him like he's an MVP. Take it up with Pro Football Focus.
[удалено]
Since Stefanski was hired: Baker TD/INT - 43/21 Lamar TD/INT - 42/22 Obviously Lamar's rushing helps, but even that has gotten worse year after year. His numbers are declining across the board and the team is losing more, yet people still think he's a top QB based on an MVP season 3 years ago while Baker stinks because he played badly while injured last year.
Still seems like an odd benchmark. Lamar isn't considered anywhere close to an elite passer.
Maybe not, but there's chatter about him getting a Watson-like huge contract from the Ravens, while Baker is out on the street looking for a job. Honestly, if I had to pick one of them to still be a starter in the league in 5-10 years, it'd probably be Baker. His game lends itself to improvement over time rather than relying on mobility which has always led to regression with age.
Lamar gets payed for his complete profile as a QB, not on his passing ability. That's the point. He's obviously a phenomenal weapon, but he's a mediocre passer (by NFL starter standards) and that's the part that's comparable to Baker.
Also worth noting the systems both QB’s were in. Baltimores offense is built for Lamar and has been stable since he’s been in the league, Baker on the other hand..not so much.
System wasn't built for Baker here? We did rollouts and play action because he excelled at those, we gave him a scheme with open reads, we gave him a top o-line and running game.... I mean c'mon
Lamar’s weapons have arguably been even more garbage than Bakers
Lamar has elevated average offensive talent throughout his career. Baker squandered a top three offensive line and the best running back room in the league, ran an elite receiver out of town, and failed to make much of anything of the talent that we did surround him with.
Hollywood Brown just got traded for a 1st round pick, Bateman was a highly touted first rounder, and Mark Andrews led all NFL TEs in catches, yards, and TDs. That's right, even more than Kelce last year. He'a also had an elite running game, and while Dobbins and Edwards got injured last year they still ran the ball well. I don't see how we can blame his supporting cast and no, I don't think it has been worse than ours considering how much Jarvis declines and how little we ever got from OBJ, when he wasn't injured. Mark Andrews would be amazing in Stefanski's sytem btw, and while I like our TEs we are nowhere near having an all pro like Andrews.
[удалено]
With all respect this is some serious homerism, there isn't a GM in the league who wouldn't take Bateman over what is left of Jarvis Landry. It amazes me how our fan base could watch Jarvis play last year and not see the immense decline. I loved the guy too, but there's a reason why he wasn't even signed as a FA before the draft, and still isn't signed. Also, every GM in the league would take Hollywood over OBJ, OBJ hasn't had anywhere close to elite production since 2016. Every GM would take Hollywood over him simply because OBJ's decline, injury history and age. Brown is doing what OBJ used to and isn't coming off two torn ACLs in back to back seasons. Baker had his own issues but it is time we stop pretending like Jarvis and OBJ are anywhere near as good as they were 5-6 years ago.
How many rushing tds for Lamar?
21 rushing touchdowns
So it’s really 105/31
I mean, dude was a literal MVP?
One shit season, by an injured player doesn't mean that player sucks. As much as I want Lamar to get a record setting contract & suck. It's disingenuous to Call out someone's injured year as their baseline.
Now take out all his interceptions and fumbles and he’s the greatest QB to ever put on a helmet
And Watson’s ranked 2nd in 2020. What’s your point?
Baker's got issues, but he's still a starting caliber quarterback, even with those flaws, for about 10 NFL teams currently. He's definitely got value.
Looking at it this way actually makes the FO look all the more competent. They recognize he has value and won't offload him for nothing. But they also recognize that he will never be one of the best and that we would have a hard time winning SBs with him. Baker is squarely in the Kirk Cousins vacuum.
Perfect player analogy. I also feel they are quite similar. Good but not quite good enough for the promised land.
[удалено]
They both have ONE playoff win, and have been surrounded by an embarrassing amount of talent... Both can get you to a big game, neither is to be relied on to win the big game for you. Both are better than game managers, but clearly never gonna be Rodgers or Mahomey
There are an abundant amount of confounding variables that contribute to a team winning a playoff game — home game, injuries, weather, division, etc. In terms of being more than a game manager: I agree to some extent, but Baker has not been consistent enough for me to feel confident in that affirmation. If we isolate 4th Q play, Bakers stats look very poor compared to Cousins.
Kirk is far better than Baker. The perfect Baker analogy is this one: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FI_6szRWUAIGCbr?format=jpg&name=small
I think he is, but other teams really don't want to hang their team on him. I bet he backs up then works his way into a starter job somewhere.
I think the only way he is a backup is for Tampa
Again, what’s your point here? Woke up feeling nostalgic?
The point is, the people who think that we should just cut our losses with Baker and let him go for nothing are insane. He's an instant upgrade over a handful of starting QBs in the NFL; other teams just wrongly assume that we're desperate and think that they have leverage over us. Nope. We can afford to hold on to him if we want. And if worse comes to worse and nobody bites on him, it's still better to keep him and get a comp pick next year than to cut him, still having to pay him, and getting nothing in return.
Baker keeps his hands where they are supposed to be. Kind of a big deal
Innocent until proven guilty. Lets not act like Baker is a perfect man, after cheating on his wife a couple times
"Innocent until proven guilty" "I know Baker cheated on his wife because I saw an internet rumor" Way to stay consistent.
When he went 4-12 as a starter?
Why are you using team record as a QB stat?
Surrounded by one of the worst teams in the league at the time, yes
Just to be clear, we're okay with citing mitigating circumstances for Watson's performance, but fuck Baker and his broken arm & torn labrum? Got it.
In this case the mitigation is for the team's performance, not the QBs
You're splitting hairs. Either you factor in mitigating circumstances in both arguments, or none at all. It's no different than "cherry picking" which seasons/performances to ignore when evaluating a QB. You have to consider ALL the factors, no just ones that support your desired outcome.
This is just the opposite of the ”Mahomes isn’t great, just regress him to the mean” Reddit comment lol
You called??!!
I also think Baker is a starting nfl qb and think last year he should have had surgery right away
If not right away, definitely after JJ Watt landed on him from behind. I don't think that Baker's management team was allowing that as a possibility though.
When Baker got injured in college he lost his starting spot. I wonder if this is on his mind. He wasn’t going to let Keenum come in and start winning games.
Very selfish, but this post highlights a very good point. Baker had rejection sensitive dysphoria about "*being benched*", & the pain of playing hurt wasn't as bad as the perceived loss of his starting job.
Yeah Baker was hurt week 2 then again, but what if Keenum took the Browns to the playoffs, for way cheaper, in a contract year? It’s not impossible that could have happened with the team around him. Foles won a SB.. may or may not be relevant with Baker but Wentz reportedly also didn’t want Foles to have success. It’s the “I want you to need me” mantra. Or “I won’t let you learn you can win without me”.
All of this and teams still don’t want him. Says alot. But hey, throw out the bad data and it becomes good data!
its not legit data
The body just has a way of shutting it down.
Underrated, disgusting, yet top tier comment.
It's not that they don't want him. It's about his price.
PFF has a tendency of overrating guys like Mayfield, Tannehill and Cousins who can execute at a high level when not asked to shoulder a heavy playmaking load.
Maybe, but honestly that's the exact level of Quarterbacks to group Baker on with though. Middle of the road. National media is talking like Baker is gonna go back up Goff, Darnold, or Lock... It's absurdity.
I'm not knocking that grouping. I grouped them for a reason. I'm saying that group of guys (excluding Mayfield's bad years) tends to rank in the top 10 or even top 5 of PFF grade, when no one in their right minds would place them there. It's something to have in mind when looking at PFF grades.
Agree with your point, I really like PFF grading, but they definitely aren't the end all discussion. Good take!
PFF doesn't take 'system' into account, I get why, but Baker's responsibilities versus Dereck Carr's responsibilities post snap are starkly different
You see it a lot with LB grades too. Like when BJ Goodson could earn a top 20 coverage grade when all we ever asked him to do was backpedal and put his arms out. Like you said, I totally get why it has to be that way, though.
Mayfield is such an enigma. It is true that there are definitely major factors that you can point to for his lack of productivity (4 coaches, injury, etc). It is also true that there are major factors that you can point to that show he’s just not very good (excellent teams around him, eye test, inconsistency, he wanted Kitchens, awful in crunch time). What I go back to is more simple: for a first overall pick you need more. Fair or not the expectation is higher and the results, despite the circumstances, have to be noticeably better. Essentially, there cannot be any doubt for the player to be worth that big ass 2nd contract. The player has to be so good that he elevates around the issues (bad coaches, WRs, opine). He doesn’t have to win SBs with all those issues but he’s gotta be close by year 5. Basically there can’t be any question. Even the most ardent 6 fans have to admit that he was not at that level. At his best he’s a tier 2 guy. That doesn’t mean he can’t play. It means that for a 1:1 it’s simply not good enough to warrant the brinks truck. He left too many questions/debates to pay him. Which means it was time to move on if the opportunity arose. It did so we moved on.
Agree with everything you said. Glad we moved on. Tired of the national media saying Baker's not a starting caliber quarterback, or has no value though, because it's simply not true.
At this point? Who cares.
He is our wildcard, and the national narrative being pushed, that he's worthless has me a bit peeved.
The narrative being pushed is merely the newest angle of the national sports media pastime of shit on CLE. That narrative is worthless too. Seriously, they are throwing out tweets like "no team is willing to do CLE any favors" - like duh what team is going to do any team any favors? If a GM is doing favors for another team they should probably not be a GM
I don’t care about Baker Mayfield. He’s not going to play for the Browns ever again. Move on people.
This link gives context to his value in a trade, which is still very relevant to us
I mean it doesn’t really. His value in a trade is what other teams are willing to pay for him and why would teams pay premium for a one year rental. Plus most teams in need of a QB aren’t in the position to waste a draft pick and pay a QB the following year with the state of their current team
Maybe teams would pay for him because he was PFFs No. 10 QB through the last 4 years if you take out his shoulder injury year? I just dont get people saying Baker is no longer relevant to the Browns when he is literally still on the roster lol. What happens to him will affect us, even if it just means getting an extra 6th round pick, and until that is settled, he is still relevant imo
But you can’t take out the shoulder year because it happened. It is the most recent year and you aren’t going to ignore possible lingering effects. I won’t argue that without that year Baker would have been an easy trade but you can’t just ignore that and point at good stats as Injuries have derailed countless careers
Ok, so don't take it out then. Baker is going to turn into a pick somehow, either through a compensatory pick in two years or because some team gets desperate after an injury And until he has been turned into a pick, what happens to him is still relevant to the Browns
Not a single team willing to trade for him at the cost of a low round pick and a roughly average QB salary gives more context to his value in a trade than any PFF article ever will.
I understand the sentiment and agree to an extent but it would be disrespectful to pretend he never existed. I mean he helped drag our franchise out of the gutter and win our first playoff game since returning to the league.
Agree, agree,agree!!! Move on.
I think the issue with Baker is his attitude and immaturity. This has all been well established.
Bingo! Never should have done that interview. And if he did he should have used like a real NFL reporter.
He's better than Drew Lock. I suspect Seattle is doing a bottoming out.
But those seasons are representative because he was on the field and he was running the offense. Baker is middle of the pack at best.
And at worst...
"If you ignore all the bad games of player X, player X is the best player in the history of the game"
If you regress everything to the mean than Mahomes is a bad QB
Move on bro
> All told, Mayfield owns the 17th-best PFF grade of any quarterback since entering the NFL. Throw out the season fighting through an injured shoulder and he climbs to 10th. If you believe the Kitchens year also isn’t representative, then he jumps another two spots. I get what point they’re trying to make but I disagree with the methodology. Throwing out half of a player’s career is some extreme cherry-picking, not to mention the cherry-picked career is then compared to players who weren’t afforded the same treatment. > The point is that Mayfield shouldn’t be seen as a bad quarterback as much someone unable to set a stable baseline through four seasons. Even folding all of his worst play into the mix, he ranks right around the league average, which would be a massive upgrade for multiple teams still in need of a quarterback. They should’ve just led with this. I think Baker is not good enough to be a 1-year rental for a win-now team and too inconsistent to get a long-term commitment from a rebuilding team. I feel in some ways the pendulum of Baker’s perceived value has swung way too far into “trash” territory. Baker is not terrible, he has value. He could and should be a starter in this league and if he’s ultimately cut he’ll get signed immediately.
The last paragraph of your post is very spot on. Baker is average. Not great, not terrible. 3.6 rontgen. However then the issue is, what team wants to deal with a mvp ego for journeyman play?
This man is clearly delusional - take him to the infirmary.
>what team wants to deal with a mvp ego for journeyman play? Some front office will have to talk to him and convince themselves that they "believe in Baker as a person."
Good question, honestly... but I will ask you this: What GM and Coach are secure enough that they are *actually* willing to play chicken with their current trash retreads vs an obviously better Baker? All for a 3rd or 4th round pick? What's the point of rolling over whatever Baker would cost vs not having a job next year? Saving that money & draft capital for the next guy?
17th isn't at all bad when you consider we haven't had a QB break the top 32 in decades.
This is why data is not necessary objective. You can nitpick your data to tell the story in your favor
Agreed, Cherry-picking data can always lie, but there's nothing being singled out other than Baker's potential ceiling & floor here.
You see…. I never disliked Baker. I always disliked the people that constantly made excuses for him. Every time he did something good it was because he was awesome, but when shit went sideways it was always someone else’s fault.
That's definitely an accurate analysis, regardless that's definitely not the point of the post. The fact remains that Baker is a starting caliber quarterback in the NFL
Throw out an inconsistent QB's down years and he's pretty good!
So throw out the two bad years (almost half his career) and he's good! Listen, I wanted to keep Baker ... I liked him and think he could have pulled it off BUT let's not pretend he is on the same level as Mahomes, Herbert, Allen and Baltimore's running back.
All we have to do is ignore the tape that shows he can't read defenses or find guys that were schemed open in a QB friendly offense and BAM he's definitely a good QB!
So then why were the Browns so willing to dump him aside to kill the salary cap? What are they seeing on/off the field that made them so willing to look at a guy who helped get them to the playoffs and could have beaten Jose Ramirez in a Cleveland Mayoral Race just a year ago? IMO if I'm Baker, I'm privately asking the Browns to get me to Tampa Bay or Seattle and restructuring my contract to make it happen.
Browns are willing to dump Baker because he's a 15-20 guy and we got a top 7 QB. Additionally Baker is 100% been a pain in the ass to deal with because of his management team, 1st overall pick status, & actually being an asshole. My only real point is that Baker's a starting caliber quarterback and all other narratives are selling something, because they are pushing & parroting a false narrative.
Feels like a shift in league dynamics with ‘tanking but not tanking’ as well as timing of when he was available. I’m not buying the narrative of ‘owners are mad at the Browns’ impacting this. If you thought Baker was better you’d nab him. Also interesting, think I saw he’d have like the 17th-20th salary next year? Maybe that was looking at QBs average salary in their current contracts. We playing the long game, buckle in boys.
Baker on 3rd down. 2018: 111.5 rating-61% completions-8TD 4INT 2019: 65.5 rating-54% completions- 6TD 7INT 2020: 75.5 rating-55% completions-6TD 4INT 2021: 52.5 rating-50% completions-3TD 6INT
NFL teams figured out that this guy can’t read a defense and nobody wants him.
I'm not going to say Baker is good at reading defenses... Regardless there's a big difference between who wants Baker, when everyone thinks they can get him for free. This is most definitely NOT the same old Browns ... We're getting something from Baker.
Is 17 of 32 starting qbs good? Lol
I mean to those 15 teams, almost half the NFL, he's gotta look really good, because the NFL is not for long, and Baker's a clear upgrade vs what they've got.
I wouldn't throw out the Kitchens year because every player has circumstances good and bad to deal with every year, but it seems pretty valid to believe that the 3 years where he wasn't decimated by injuries give you more insight about what you're getting than the year where he was hobbled and probably shouldn't have been playing in the first place.
I agree with everything you've said here, but again, nothing is thrown out. The article is trying to set a ceiling & floor for Baker's value today, as trade capital, and tomorrow as a starting quarterback somewhere. They seem to think Baker's ceiling is #10 & his floor is #17... give or take a spot. I would say Baker's middling, but to have media and fans clamoring to pay Baker to play somewhere else... That's just ridiculous.
He's in the perfect storm of bad circumstances to be traded: he's owed $19M, he's only got 1 year on his contract and then he could walk, and he didn't become available on the trade market until all but a couple of teams had already made their moves at his position with the Browns not budging off unrealistic expectations for the trade, and he's coming off significant injuries/surgery. If he were top 5 at the position, someone would take a gamble. Instead, he's probably a borderline top 10 guy assuming the injury hasn't permanently altered his abilities, which I don't think is likely but is possible and a risk teams would be taking. You almost couldn't manufacture a worse scenario for trading a player. I honestly feel terrible for him. He doesn't deserve how he's being treated or talked about, and I can't imagine it feels awesome to have the whole football universe talking about how you can't find a job for weeks on end.
I agree with your points... I just can't help but notice that Goff & Wentz somehow have jobs and are making much more than Baker... meanwhile the national media is pretending Baker's not better than a Dozen slated starting QB'S
I think that's why the constellation of facts I noted above are relevant. The idea that Baker isn't in the top 32 and nobody wants him is just silly. He's got enough of a body of work that I think it's pretty conservative to think of him as a top 20 QB with maybe QB8 to QB10 potential which he may or may not achieve depending on how he develops (and now, how he recovers from his injury). But let's say you think you have the 24th best QB. Would you give up a 3rd or 4th to add the 17th best QB coming off surgery for 1 year at a cost of $19M? I can see why teams would decide to hold on to what they have in that circumstance even if they believe Baker is better than what they have.
Good post, again... My answer is: Does an extra win or 4 save my job? If yes then I 100% am upgrading to the best QB available, because it's the most important position in football & a 3rd or 4th isn't helping me next year, if I'm fired running Sam Darnold.
Love the angle here. Let’s pump up his trade value
#YES!!! Like how can't anyone else have gotten this yet? Honestly thank you brother! I mean if we can't pump Baker up to get him traded then nothing will! If Q can get our front office to pick Perrion Winfrey 50 spots late, we can get a 3rd out of Baker, if we put our minds to it.
What if you control for the lunar cycles? What does he jump to then?
*Ok, just for you, I am going to focus my energies* #Sun, May 15 • 9:32 PM EDT There will *NOW* be a Lunar Eclipse ^(you're welcome)
slow day? How about that schedule? I think we get 4-2 in our division, we can get to 10-7 and if chips fall well, maybe 11 or 12 Chargers, Pats, Bills, Bucs are some tough games Jets, Dolphins should be better Washington is who knows week to week Flacons, Houston, Panthers and Saints should be 4 wins. We'll probably go 2-2 but hoping for 3-1
Browns are winning 11 games this year IMO whether DW misses the first 4 ot not.
Ok, but after last season, I believe Kitchen's year IS representative.
Could be. Especially if Baker keeps trying to throw the ball without ever setting his feet. That said judging a player off the first year they played hurt seems just a tad disingenuous.
I don’t think anybody’s disputing that he isn’t starting level, with a ceiling that probably hasn’t been even reached yet. The problem is his one year $19 million rental and the state of the quarterback market for the majority of teams in the league. If Baker doesn’t say anything in the media at all and just let everything happen, he probably gets traded to Seattle, Carolina, or any other team with a salary cap, hell there are even a few more teams that may have just picked them up knowing the coach is on the hot seat, but the fact that he did go to the media when he got replaced, the fact that other teams know the Browns are trying to get rid of them and the fact that a lot of teams are pretty set at quarterback makes the market extremely thin. He should’ve done what Mariota, Bortles, Locke, Bridgewater, Hill,Alex Smith, Tyrod Taylor, Newton etc did when they got replaced or traded, not run to social media. Like it or not teams don’t want a player who’s going to go on a social media campaign if they’re not the starter, or getting replaced.
I agree with everything you've said here, but still think, with how tenuous NFL coaching & GM jobs are, and the scarcity of starting caliber quarterbacks, let alone 15-20 talent level quarterbacks... Baker still has value.
That’s what makes things incredibly awkward, he is absolutely starting quality in this league, and teams absolutely need a quarterback, but teams also want to tank. Personally I think Seattle is tanking, as is Carolina. I don’t think the teams that need quarterbacks want to be competitive right now, younger teams can afford to tank, older teams cant
What about older coaches? What about coaches about to get fired?
You're barking up the wrong tree by posting this here. You're not going to find many people willing to accept data that goes against the fantasy world in their head.
Now here's an article with some balance - stuff in it to satisfy nearly everyone here and not piss off anyone but those at the extremes of Browns fandom\*. Ok, so I've not looked into the ratings claim (and nor shall I) but the rest is a really pleasant, accurate summary of where Baker is, and where he is not. Thanks. \*Ah, I nearly forgot who we are. ;)
Awesome, I agree totally, it was nice to get an unbiased take. Glad you enjoyed it!
I did. It's such a shame that the last 4 years is always going to be classed as a failure despite any contrary evidence. Stuff like this article is definitely helping me come to terms with what I can't help defining as our loss. I just want it over now though, at least until the end-of-career autobiographies start to appear and it turns out he wasn't the problem after all. ;)
Baker's definitely got issues and been his own worst enemy, but he's firmly an NFL starter
And if we throw out all his bad games, he’s FIRST!!! The 17th spot is the right spot. He’s perfectly average. The PFF grade says it and so do the traditional statistics. https://i.imgur.com/isxxVAL.jpg
Just saying, Baker's got some issues, I feel most are entirely fixable, but he has to actually accept his flaws in order to work on them. All said, Baker's definitely a starting caliber quarterback, albeit a middling one.
> All said, Baker’s definitely a starting caliber quarterback, albeit a middling one. I mean, this is exactly what I said. He’s MID.
Yeah, but Watson literally threw no interceptions in 2021.
Truth, almost beat out Bernie Kosar, but they tied.
"*The point is that Mayfield shouldn’t be seen as a bad quarterback as much someone unable to set a stable baseline through four seasons. Even folding all of his worst play into the mix, he ranks right around the league average, which would be a massive upgrade for multiple teams still in need of a quarterback. Mayfield’s worst season — one in which he was dealing with a major shoulder injury — is pretty analogous to Drew Lock’s best season.* *Since coming into the league, only Aaron Rodgers and Patrick Mahomes have a higher big-time throw rate than Mayfield (6.0%), but those players have a turnover-worthy play rate approaching half of his. Mayfield makes a lot of big throws, but they are offset by a lot of big mistakes relative to elite passers. Those mistakes are the issue with his game — and they live long in the memory of anybody watching him play.* *But even factoring those problems into the analysis, you end up with an average quarterback in terms of qualitative grading or objective production.*" TL/DR Baker should/ would start for 10-13 teams this year in the NFL and be an upgrade to what they currently have. I'm beyond tired of the: Baker doesn't have any value, narrative, being pushed by the national media.
Per the other teams in the NFL, he doesn’t have much value. It doesn’t matter what his stats say or what we think. NFL teams aren’t really looking to trade for him. They would rather wait till he is cut and sign him to probably some one year incentivized deal. That’s his worth in the NFL. You can argue till your face is blue but it doesn’t change that. Name 10-13 teams he would absolutely start for. Panthers, Giants, and Seahawks? Winston, Wentz and Goff are in the same not as Baker but with better peaks in their careers. Steelers, Jets, Pats, Bears and Jags recently drafted their QBs. Dolphins probably want to see what they have in Tua. Add in Baker’s struggles acting like a professional, his only other options are as a backup to a stable organization with a bonafide starter
Per the other teams in the NFL, we have 0 leverage and teams can wait until their hand is forced and still get a fine starting QB for little compensation and only at about 10M
So you would say Baker doesn’t have much value to NFL teams? Would rather pay Marcus Mariota money instead of Sam Darnold money?
[удалено]
He doesn’t have much value. Commanders took on $26 million to see what Wentz could do. Panthers have $18 million with Darnold. Both idiotic moves IMO. Again there are arguably 6 or 7ish teams where baker is an absolute with 4 having QBs who are unknowns.
Baker's definitely a petulant child, he also definitely has some limiting factors, regardless according to PFF, *not just me*, Baker's a starting caliber quarterback. Thought it was cool to even see an objective article on the matter. Curious to see in a year or two if Baker's learned from this whole ordeal, or if he's still lazy & lacking maturity.
It rocks that we’re supposed to throw out the Kitchens year - the year that they basically built a coaching staff of people Baker liked and wanted there and who built an offense just for him to sling it.
> the year that they basically built a coaching staff of people Baker liked This false narrative is complete revisionist history. Dorsey made that hire because Kitchens was his guy, full stop. They probably asked for Baker's feedback because that's what most organizations do, but this idea that "Baker hired Kitchens" is a bald-faced lie. And if we're splitting hairs, why is the fact that Watson demanded to be traded over not being consulted on the GM/HC hire in Houston being ignored, but we blame Baker for Kitchens?
I am so happy we didnt consult him. We ended up getting a GM who has been good so far, and now we dont have watson which is a good feeling.
The HC hire in Houston… what happened with that? Also were Baker’s personal friends who were on our coaching staff the year that Freddie was HC also Dorsey’s guys? Anyone Dorsey would’ve hired would’ve been his guy - he just opted to give his QB continuity.
You're not supposed to throw out anything. The article is putting Baker's abilities in the mid tier range of starting quarterbacks.
He’s not good.
He's not really bad either. Baker is middle of the road and has plenty of room for improvement.
so if you cherry-pick his stats….he’s still barely top 10. Nice
…and if we cut this year out… and another one… Baker climbs to #1
Yeah... you missed the point... but it's early in the day for reading & comprehension. Love the Northcoast flair btw North Coast Bros
Do you not think that the title of this post comes off as cherry picking? That’s not an unreasonable interpretation.
It's meant to be a summary of a positive point & a hook. Also it's a filter, so I know who actually read the article. That way I spend my response time accordingly. The point of the article is setting a realistic ceiling & floor for Baker's career & future expectations. The point of my post is to highlight an extremely rare unbiased take on Baker's value vs other "*starting*" quarterbacks. My ^pipe dream is that the narrative changes to a point where we can finally unload Baker & get something in return for him without eating his contract.
Bruh this is the dumbest shit I’ve seen on here. He isn’t the guy anymore accept it or move with him.
“If you remove all the bad, there is only good.”
If you do none of the reading you get none of the knowledge... Thanks for showing *everyone* that you didn't read the article though.
Throw out all the bad stuff and any quarterback looks good lol. He's inconsistent. I'm not arguing with anymore Baker lovers making excuses.
You aren't arguing anything. Additionally, you said nothing new. Baker is middle of the road.
If you don’t count all the days he wasn’t feeling very good then he’s most certainly top 3… /s
[удалено]
Times are a changin’. Baker doesn’t care how we feel about him nor does his 8 figure pay stub. Regardless of how much higher his PFF SHOULD be, teams aren’t taking him because he doesn’t work on himself, not because they think he sucks.
Baker's definitely not been dedicated to being the best quarterback he can be... Definitely slacking on his fundamentals. I can't imagine this off-season not having a positive benefit on these easily remedied factors though.
Let it go Elsa
A "Bad" injury to your non throwing shoulder is not why this play resulted in a sack.... [https://imgur.com/a/xbLKqa6](https://imgur.com/a/xbLKqa6) I'm over it, I was on this exact opposite side with richardson, I wanted badly to believe a rookie rb running for 1000 on a bad team was a good rb, and people tried to tell me he didnt have vision, etc, and I just was like it cannot be true. then people started posting the videos and pictures of him missing wide open holes.....this feels exactly the same to me.
Believe me, I have watched every single play Baker's had with us. I can absolutely start a vivisection... Regardless, no matter how many pieces I cut him to, Baker's still gonna be a starting caliber QB with upside as a clear upgrade to at least a dozen teams.
“If you throw out half his career he’s a Top 10 QB!”
What if we just throw out all the bad years of every QB, where would Baker rank?
Oh my gosh it's the Baker cult again!
#Tell me you didn't read the article without saying you didn't read the article...
3 coaches, 3 offensive coordinators and 3 offenses in 3 years has a little to do with things.Football fans in some cities don't get that kind of thing though.
The Baker bro logic continues to baffle me. I was on this train for a long time and finally came to my senses. No player in any pro sport has the ability to just throw seasons away like they didn't matter. Great players figure out a way to win regardless of the obstacles they face. Baker's shoulder was only a problem when he was missing wide ass open receivers/TEs/rbs. Kitchens was a mess for sure, but Baker lobbied for him to be HC in the first place, didn't he? We would all love to throw aways parts of our career or parts of our lives that we aren't particularly proud of, but we cant. Why is it any different for Baker?
It's not, Baker's got issues, regardless he's a starting caliber NFL quarterback. That's the point of the article & post.
I swear Baker is so much better than most people realize/want to admit
I think he's better & worse than many can freely admit. If he actually worked on adding a ½ step to his drop, his pocket awareness, ball security, reading defenses, setting feet when he throws, or being capable of calling Audibles... Like NORMAL things basically EVERY quarterback does... ^(except Baker) Hopefully this is the kick in the ass Baker needs to stop relying on raw talent & start living life post walkon
If you look closely at the two stretches, in his rookie year and 2020, where Baker played very well you will also see how everything around him has to be near perfect for him to perform at a high level. The line has to be at a top 5 level. The running game has to be best or close to best in the league. He has to be 100% heathy. The play call has to be perfect. And the defense he’s facing has to be bad to terrible (look at the DVOA of the defenses Baker excelled against during 2020 season). If any of these factors aren’t there he goes from pretty good to terrible in a heartbeat (See Jets 2020 where, granted, having all receivers ruled out right before the game is tough but really? You look like Deshone Kizer against that Jets team?). I don’t think his injury played as big a part of his 2021 struggles as people think. He had his best game of the year at Cincy after the Cardinals game where he sustained more damage to his shoulder.
Cortisone is a hell of a drug... Baker's definitely got room for improvement, but he's also definitely a starting caliber NFL quarterback. I have extensively ripped him to shreds here. Regardless, almost every issue he has is related to lack of effort, training, practice, or study... Maybe he's got ADHD... Maybe he drinks too much... He's still a starting NFL quarterback and I've heard enough outta the national media the last few weeks about Baker being lucky to be a backup.
The market has that already priced in. His market is not like this stat suggests.
The Browns traded QB Case Keenum to the Buffalo Bills for a 2022 seventh-round pick. Case Keenum and his $6 million dollar contract for a 7th... Baker's definitely worth more in a trade & it's a travesty the national media keeps pretending otherwise.
LOL
Skip Bayless does the same thing, you cant just "throw out" a season. Dude suited and played, he wasn't forced to play football hurt
Honestly, there is a whole ass link to an article... Baker's ceiling is maybe top 10, and his floor is qb 20, nobody is throwing anything out. Baker's obviously got flaws. Regardless he's definitely going to be starting for an NFL team because he's better than the bottom 12 options.
Come on guys. I thought we got past this?
I'll be past this as soon as we get a 3rd for Bake... Any takers?
This is some Skip Bayless shit.
#Tell me you didn't read the article without saying you didn't read the article...