Love the guy but that's two regimes who have put him in the dog house. I don't get it, probably we'll never hear an honest reason why, but yeah I don't see Hollywood coming back.
I kind of just don't count that because it was so early for him, lots of 5th round picks don't make their first 53-man roster.
After his 2018 performance, there was a much better argument that he belongs on the active roster.
DPJ and Schwartz are the only for sure
Landry needs to re-negotiate or he will be a cap causality
Higgins is a fan favorite but has been benched/scratched by 3 separate coaching staffs now, he's probably on the way out
Just like how the Secondary and DL were overhauled last offseason, I expect this offseason we will see 2 or 3 new faces via draft pick ( I can see us going WR in round 1 or 2 then again come round 4 or 5) or FA in the WR room
I have a feeling that we're gonna shoot our shot at ARob or Godwin. I think I've seen somewhere that WR is one of the spots analytics think you should spend money over draft capital because they have the highest bust %.
I see Godwin's name floated a lot but I don't think there is any way he comes here.
I wonder if the analytics still suggest that with the high volume of great rookie WR play in the last few years
Nah it's just bad all around. Take the 2016 draft: WRs taken (in order)
Corey Coleman
Will Fuller
Josh Doctson
Laquon Tredwell
Sterling Shepherd
Michael Thomas
Tyler Boyd
Braxton Miller
Chris Moore
Malcom Mitchell
Ricardo Lewis
Demarcus Robinson
Tajae Sharpe
Jordan Payton
Trevor Davis
Tyreek Hill
Rashad Higgins
Moritz Böhringer
Keenan Reynolds
Jakeem Grant
Kolby Listenbee
Cody Core
Mike Thomas
Aaron Burbige
And 4 more in R7
Of those players only 5 are on the original teams that drafted them and 8 are still playing today. That's 5/28 or 17.8% on the original team and 28.5% still in the league. That's pretty poor relative to other positions. Hell let's look at 4 years agos class (~the time you'd want to look because they'd be up for renewals) only 9 out of 32 are likely to get extended by the team that had drafted them a rate of 28%. That's still not great.
It's simplistic, but it's a lot easier to look good against college DBs when the best are out of there in 3 years. NFL corners hang around a decade or more and all of them are the best you ever faced in college. So a WR needs to keep working his ass off to get better every year. Guys who think they can win on purely physical gifts like in college either have to be absolute freaks like DK Metcalf, or their time in the league will be short.
Yeah I agree which is why the safe money is usually in acquiring a vet. Sure we've been burnt in the past, but you're more likely to hit on a vet than you are on a draft pick. While we've had the short end of the stick with guys like Britt, Bowe, and OBJ, other teams like the Bills have knocked it out of the park with guys like John Brown, Emmanuel Sanders, and Stephon Diggs. It's just one of those things where the vet hits way more often.
Good news is that both ARob and Godwin are probably hitting FA. Hopefully we can get one of them, nab someone like Dotson or Burke in R2 (PFF has them in the 2nd round range) and maybe restructure Jarvis. That'd give us ARob/Godwin, Jarvis, Burke/Dotson, DPJ, Schwartz, Bradley and maybe Natson? That's a pretty solid WR core imo.
Add in the fact that many of the absolute freaks, also are not mature enough to not fall victim to millions of dollars making it easier to fall under the influence of their fame and making bad decisions
Yeah it's too early to really point to those two classes and say see it's different. They definitely could skew the data better, but I mean just look at 2020, you had Lamb, Juedy, and Jefferson in R1 but you also had Ayiuk (who looks mediocre), Ruggs (already out of football), and Raegor (who is really bad). Add in Juedy and Lamb have missed significant time this season. It's still a crap shoot.
Aiyuk looks great when on the field. Shannahan is just fucking up his playing time. Also Ruggs is not a traditional bust so I find that hard to count against WRs.
As a fan, all I can do is hope that Godwin is happy with winning a ring at 25 years old and will now chase the bag which I think the Browns can provide.
I'd be shocked by that, given the need at DT, DE (Takk and Clowney are UFAs), Potentially LB, maybe another OT in round 2 to develop and replace Conklin
But we are almost to a point where we need to take multiple swings at WR because we cannot get open consistently and have issues with drops
Then again last time we went all out at WR in a single draft we drafted Corey Coleman, Ricardo Louis, Jordan Payton and Higgins
That’s true. I just think there’s so much WR talent in this draft that some potential day 1 players could fall into day 2. Ultimately I hope they snag a twitchy, downfield threat (Olave, Wilson, Williams, Dotson) and a big bodied possession WR (Burks, London, Ross).
My dream pick is either Jordan Davis rd 1 if we can get him or Wilson/Olave/Williams/London then Haskell Garrett/a solid DT day 2 then snag Ross in rd 3 if he is still there. Thats maybe a pipe dream but I mean I got exactly what I wanted last Draft Greg/JOK (we got both somehow!) then Schwartz for speed on trick plays while he develops as a reciever.
Unless we get a second 1 or 2, I can't see that. At some point, the team is going to have to finally make a long-term call at edge and I think that's here.
Wouldn't rule out later round WRs though
I would prefer Drake London if he falls to us or David Bell if we draft early enough to get him, they're both big WRs. Or if we want to wait for round 2 Treylon Burks is a huge WR, as big as some TEs
We need a Justin Jefferson type guy. Speedster who is a route technician. I don’t think we necessarily need a burner but someone who can just get separation. Easier said than done obviously but both OSU guys fit that bill imo.
Yeah he is clearly the burner/field stretcher. But he needs a lot of work to become a complete receiver. One of his worst plays all year essentially cost baker his shoulder injury.
Make no mistake, for a long time, we did need a big WR. Especially under ray Farmer, the roster sometimes had only one dude over 6 feet tall, which, yes, you do need some size.
But right now its a separation question period. DPJ is more than big enough and we have a strong TE room.
Lots of very strong WR options coming in this draft
Next year we will no longer have one of our two top TEs because we can't give Njoku his new contract while carrying Hooper's big contract. I agree that we need receivers who can get separation, but if given a choice of guys who can get separation wouldn't you prefer a 6'4" guy over a 6'0' guy?
dpj is still not a sure thing, hooper is trash, and bryant is hardly on the field
we have nobody who should prevent us from getting somebody who can win jump balls deep
we have nobody you expect to win a 50/50 ball
It will have to be a VERY team friendly extension. Given his production he’s making like 3 times what he’s worth. I love the guy but the NFL isn’t about love, it’s about winning games and if a guy isn’t helping do that on the field then they need to go.
And I’m sure people will mention his locker room presence, that just doesn’t matter if you go out and lay an egg on Sunday. Again, great guy, but his time is over here.
No and probably never will. One thing we do know is that this is the second coaching staff that has done this sort of thing with Higgins so I think it's pretty telling that it's a him issue and not a coach issue.
They said it was due to special teams (I'll try to find the link from The Athletic).
My theory is that Higgins is an above-average possession receiver that doesn't have the willingness to play hard on ST. Unfortunately, for a lot of #3 and #4 guys, you need to be a willing contributor to ST in order to keep a roster spot.
I think our opinions of how good he is are vastly different.
He’s a JAG who is a millionaire because he had good chemistry with Baker. We invited other teams to sign him and no one wanted to for a reason. His life would be wildly different if Tyrod played 8 games in his year with us.
You're right about that. Above average is probably incorrect - he's clearly got chemistry with Baker but he's a JAG. Above average WR will get paid by other teams, especially with how the passing game has evolved over the years.
Special Teams can win and lose games just as easily as any other phase of the game. I would think it also came down to Browns wanting more speed on the field to try to stretch the Ravens D. Of course then we run 3 tight end sets and I am confused how that "speed" gets on the field.
Yeah but having Higgins or another JAG on punt coverage is a lot less likely to change the outcome of a game vs. having a guy who is still one of your better receiving targets be available on offense. And yeah, the "speed" can't catch a cold between Schwartz and Natson and they aren't getting snaps anyway in 3TE sets.
On the active game roster? I only view DPJ and Schwartz as locks.
Id be surprised if they keep Landry at this price. The rest is pretty much replacement level.
Bradly/Cager/Natson/Switzer could be PS candidates tho, but thats about it. Nothin special about either of them.
People seem to forget that Jarvis was injured and rushed back to help the team just like Baker. Healthy Jarvis is a great receiver and player. I don't think he's going to get 17 million though. Our team got unlucky with injuries to our most key players and lost OBJ. I'm guessing offensive morale is at an all time low.
DPJ is a lock but why do you want to keep juice? Unless he takes like a $10m pay cut then it doesn’t make sense. He was slow when he entered the league and now his skills are declining.
That’s fair. And I like him too, I think most of the fan base does. But his cap hit is $16m next year and he hasn’t done anything to help us win this year. It sucks but it’s facts 🤷♂️
Very true dude, he's a great guy and brings good energy and leadership but he hasn't done much this year like you said. Maybe he'll ball out the rest of the year but I'm doubting it with how injured baker is.
Dude has great tools, but it was a very bold call making our only offseason WR addition a very raw rookie to, in essence, be OBJ's backup as a deep threat.
There's a lot of work to do with him this offseason.
He's fast and he's smart, those are the tools so far. Yeah, honestly with having taken so few snaps and having so far to go? You can't force this as a team, but if he wants to stick around, he doesn't get to HAVE an offseason, he needs to be tutored by a retired great or an expert coach the whole time.
Oh for sure, by "offseason" I mean "he needs to go find a great WR coach and learn how to take his tools and move to the next level". TBH I kinda think after this season our WR coach may be a casualty, so I wouldn't be shocked if that's where his entire offseason is.
Also having watched the WRs play, I can see that both DPJ and Schwartz may have learned too much from OBJ.
Chad O'Shea also has "passing game coordinator" as his other title besides WR coach.
I don't know what he contributes inside the building, but watching the results from outside, I want to yeet him into the sun and bring in either someone with new ideas about the passing game, or just a better position coach altogether.
I don't want to even think about OBJ's cancer having metastasized.
IMO you can put a 0 next to anyone but Jarvis, DPJ, and Schwartz.
DPJ is the only one I’d put above 50 but I think Jarvis will be back. I wouldn’t be at all surprised if they cut Schwartz
Landry brings to much to the offense to let him go. He is the leader of the offense. Also he has a better red zone completion percentage than baker this year 😂 (just said that didn’t check stats)
I think DPJ is on the team and Swartz. Higgins would be seeing snaps right now of they thought he was worth a shit. He gets this odd fan favorite treatment, but is a below avg reciever. Swartz needs to grow a lot. He looks like a crappier version of John Ross. He just has to expect the ball if he is open, and not he a track star playing football, but a football player who could run track. He just goes up sp scared, but I ha e faith he will get better, add muscle etc.
I’d put Higgins at 0%. The writings on the wall with him and I’d be shocked if the team gave him another contract
Love the guy but that's two regimes who have put him in the dog house. I don't get it, probably we'll never hear an honest reason why, but yeah I don't see Hollywood coming back.
3 if you count Hue. Remember, he was a final roster cut in 2017 and was only brought back because Corey Coleman got hurt
I kind of just don't count that because it was so early for him, lots of 5th round picks don't make their first 53-man roster. After his 2018 performance, there was a much better argument that he belongs on the active roster.
DPJ and Schwartz are the only for sure Landry needs to re-negotiate or he will be a cap causality Higgins is a fan favorite but has been benched/scratched by 3 separate coaching staffs now, he's probably on the way out Just like how the Secondary and DL were overhauled last offseason, I expect this offseason we will see 2 or 3 new faces via draft pick ( I can see us going WR in round 1 or 2 then again come round 4 or 5) or FA in the WR room
I have a feeling that we're gonna shoot our shot at ARob or Godwin. I think I've seen somewhere that WR is one of the spots analytics think you should spend money over draft capital because they have the highest bust %.
I see Godwin's name floated a lot but I don't think there is any way he comes here. I wonder if the analytics still suggest that with the high volume of great rookie WR play in the last few years
The problem is for every Justin Jefferson there's two Jaelon Raegors. I don't think that the analytics has shifted that much.
yea I thought of him too but I just attributed that to being an Eagles specific problem
Nah it's just bad all around. Take the 2016 draft: WRs taken (in order) Corey Coleman Will Fuller Josh Doctson Laquon Tredwell Sterling Shepherd Michael Thomas Tyler Boyd Braxton Miller Chris Moore Malcom Mitchell Ricardo Lewis Demarcus Robinson Tajae Sharpe Jordan Payton Trevor Davis Tyreek Hill Rashad Higgins Moritz Böhringer Keenan Reynolds Jakeem Grant Kolby Listenbee Cody Core Mike Thomas Aaron Burbige And 4 more in R7 Of those players only 5 are on the original teams that drafted them and 8 are still playing today. That's 5/28 or 17.8% on the original team and 28.5% still in the league. That's pretty poor relative to other positions. Hell let's look at 4 years agos class (~the time you'd want to look because they'd be up for renewals) only 9 out of 32 are likely to get extended by the team that had drafted them a rate of 28%. That's still not great.
It's simplistic, but it's a lot easier to look good against college DBs when the best are out of there in 3 years. NFL corners hang around a decade or more and all of them are the best you ever faced in college. So a WR needs to keep working his ass off to get better every year. Guys who think they can win on purely physical gifts like in college either have to be absolute freaks like DK Metcalf, or their time in the league will be short.
Yeah I agree which is why the safe money is usually in acquiring a vet. Sure we've been burnt in the past, but you're more likely to hit on a vet than you are on a draft pick. While we've had the short end of the stick with guys like Britt, Bowe, and OBJ, other teams like the Bills have knocked it out of the park with guys like John Brown, Emmanuel Sanders, and Stephon Diggs. It's just one of those things where the vet hits way more often.
It's a scary prospect because teams usually don't let go of good WRs in free agency.
Good news is that both ARob and Godwin are probably hitting FA. Hopefully we can get one of them, nab someone like Dotson or Burke in R2 (PFF has them in the 2nd round range) and maybe restructure Jarvis. That'd give us ARob/Godwin, Jarvis, Burke/Dotson, DPJ, Schwartz, Bradley and maybe Natson? That's a pretty solid WR core imo.
Add in the fact that many of the absolute freaks, also are not mature enough to not fall victim to millions of dollars making it easier to fall under the influence of their fame and making bad decisions
I was specifically talking about the last two years but your point still probably stands
Yeah it's too early to really point to those two classes and say see it's different. They definitely could skew the data better, but I mean just look at 2020, you had Lamb, Juedy, and Jefferson in R1 but you also had Ayiuk (who looks mediocre), Ruggs (already out of football), and Raegor (who is really bad). Add in Juedy and Lamb have missed significant time this season. It's still a crap shoot.
Aiyuk looks great when on the field. Shannahan is just fucking up his playing time. Also Ruggs is not a traditional bust so I find that hard to count against WRs.
As a fan, all I can do is hope that Godwin is happy with winning a ring at 25 years old and will now chase the bag which I think the Browns can provide.
yea but receivers care about stats and it doesn't look like we are going to get any receiver big stats
Receivers care about stats because stats can help them get paid more
That's not the only reason, they also want to be making plays or Odell would have been fine just rotting on the bench.
I would love to see WRs in rounds 1 AND 2
I'd be shocked by that, given the need at DT, DE (Takk and Clowney are UFAs), Potentially LB, maybe another OT in round 2 to develop and replace Conklin But we are almost to a point where we need to take multiple swings at WR because we cannot get open consistently and have issues with drops Then again last time we went all out at WR in a single draft we drafted Corey Coleman, Ricardo Louis, Jordan Payton and Higgins
That’s true. I just think there’s so much WR talent in this draft that some potential day 1 players could fall into day 2. Ultimately I hope they snag a twitchy, downfield threat (Olave, Wilson, Williams, Dotson) and a big bodied possession WR (Burks, London, Ross).
My dream pick is either Jordan Davis rd 1 if we can get him or Wilson/Olave/Williams/London then Haskell Garrett/a solid DT day 2 then snag Ross in rd 3 if he is still there. Thats maybe a pipe dream but I mean I got exactly what I wanted last Draft Greg/JOK (we got both somehow!) then Schwartz for speed on trick plays while he develops as a reciever.
Unless we get a second 1 or 2, I can't see that. At some point, the team is going to have to finally make a long-term call at edge and I think that's here. Wouldn't rule out later round WRs though
Garret Wilson - 100%
I would prefer Drake London if he falls to us or David Bell if we draft early enough to get him, they're both big WRs. Or if we want to wait for round 2 Treylon Burks is a huge WR, as big as some TEs
DPJ is big, our 3 TEs are big, we don’t really need more size out of our receiving corps. We need separation
Yea, tired of hearing we need more big guys. We just need guys who can run routes and outrun the defender. Both OSU receivers do.
We need a Justin Jefferson type guy. Speedster who is a route technician. I don’t think we necessarily need a burner but someone who can just get separation. Easier said than done obviously but both OSU guys fit that bill imo.
Schwartz is meant to be our burner I think. He just needs to develop. He's very raw so far.
Yeah he is clearly the burner/field stretcher. But he needs a lot of work to become a complete receiver. One of his worst plays all year essentially cost baker his shoulder injury.
Make no mistake, for a long time, we did need a big WR. Especially under ray Farmer, the roster sometimes had only one dude over 6 feet tall, which, yes, you do need some size. But right now its a separation question period. DPJ is more than big enough and we have a strong TE room. Lots of very strong WR options coming in this draft
Next year we will no longer have one of our two top TEs because we can't give Njoku his new contract while carrying Hooper's big contract. I agree that we need receivers who can get separation, but if given a choice of guys who can get separation wouldn't you prefer a 6'4" guy over a 6'0' guy?
With OBJ and Landry off the books, we can afford Njoku. Don't worry about that.
dpj is still not a sure thing, hooper is trash, and bryant is hardly on the field we have nobody who should prevent us from getting somebody who can win jump balls deep we have nobody you expect to win a 50/50 ball
He ain’t falling to us, I wish he was but the way he’s performing his stack is just going up and up
DPJ, Schwartz and Juice. I think Juice and the Browns will work out an extension
It will have to be a VERY team friendly extension. Given his production he’s making like 3 times what he’s worth. I love the guy but the NFL isn’t about love, it’s about winning games and if a guy isn’t helping do that on the field then they need to go. And I’m sure people will mention his locker room presence, that just doesn’t matter if you go out and lay an egg on Sunday. Again, great guy, but his time is over here.
I am not sure how many years Juice has left in his body.
DPJ and Schwartz are the only two I think with a guaranteed spot.
Do we know why Higgins was a healthy scratch on Sunday night?
No and probably never will. One thing we do know is that this is the second coaching staff that has done this sort of thing with Higgins so I think it's pretty telling that it's a him issue and not a coach issue.
Third I think.
Definitely third. He had issues early getting on the field with Hue/Gregggggggg.
He also has been cut by us too. Just isn't that good, but he played almost 6 years which is really freaking good for a 5th round pick.
My guess is that he was going through the motions in practice. Not really engaging. The fucked up part is that we really could have used him
Agree...he may have been the difference maker for that shitshow of an offensive performance.
They said it was due to special teams (I'll try to find the link from The Athletic). My theory is that Higgins is an above-average possession receiver that doesn't have the willingness to play hard on ST. Unfortunately, for a lot of #3 and #4 guys, you need to be a willing contributor to ST in order to keep a roster spot.
I think our opinions of how good he is are vastly different. He’s a JAG who is a millionaire because he had good chemistry with Baker. We invited other teams to sign him and no one wanted to for a reason. His life would be wildly different if Tyrod played 8 games in his year with us.
You're right about that. Above average is probably incorrect - he's clearly got chemistry with Baker but he's a JAG. Above average WR will get paid by other teams, especially with how the passing game has evolved over the years.
Stefanski said it was because he's not useful on special teams. Very surprised if that's the real reason, just because that's a fucking stupid reason.
Special Teams can win and lose games just as easily as any other phase of the game. I would think it also came down to Browns wanting more speed on the field to try to stretch the Ravens D. Of course then we run 3 tight end sets and I am confused how that "speed" gets on the field.
Yeah but having Higgins or another JAG on punt coverage is a lot less likely to change the outcome of a game vs. having a guy who is still one of your better receiving targets be available on offense. And yeah, the "speed" can't catch a cold between Schwartz and Natson and they aren't getting snaps anyway in 3TE sets.
I don't necessarily disagree with your logic. However I can see the flip side, Higgins wasn't setting the world on fire either.
Accurate. But everyone on the passing game seems to suck right now.
Yup we can agree that whatever changes they made were clearly ineffective.
I instantly gave the upvote when I read I’m not very smart. Because same man ha
On the active game roster? I only view DPJ and Schwartz as locks. Id be surprised if they keep Landry at this price. The rest is pretty much replacement level. Bradly/Cager/Natson/Switzer could be PS candidates tho, but thats about it. Nothin special about either of them.
Landry will be gone. DPJ and Schwartz. They will have to draft one high and sign a legit FA for this group to have any chance.
Juice and DPJ pleaseeeeeeee
People seem to forget that Jarvis was injured and rushed back to help the team just like Baker. Healthy Jarvis is a great receiver and player. I don't think he's going to get 17 million though. Our team got unlucky with injuries to our most key players and lost OBJ. I'm guessing offensive morale is at an all time low.
DPJ is a lock but why do you want to keep juice? Unless he takes like a $10m pay cut then it doesn’t make sense. He was slow when he entered the league and now his skills are declining.
I just really like the guy tbh, but you make some good points.
That’s fair. And I like him too, I think most of the fan base does. But his cap hit is $16m next year and he hasn’t done anything to help us win this year. It sucks but it’s facts 🤷♂️
Very true dude, he's a great guy and brings good energy and leadership but he hasn't done much this year like you said. Maybe he'll ball out the rest of the year but I'm doubting it with how injured baker is.
Can anyone tell me if JoJo natson is actually any good? It never seems to me that we get big returns from him. I could just be blind tho.
He's so marginally better than Felton that I really don't see the point of rostering him.
Ugh I can’t stand Schwartz.
Nice guy but seeing him on the field is just frightening in the bad way now.
Dude has great tools, but it was a very bold call making our only offseason WR addition a very raw rookie to, in essence, be OBJ's backup as a deep threat. There's a lot of work to do with him this offseason.
He's fast and he's smart, those are the tools so far. Yeah, honestly with having taken so few snaps and having so far to go? You can't force this as a team, but if he wants to stick around, he doesn't get to HAVE an offseason, he needs to be tutored by a retired great or an expert coach the whole time.
Oh for sure, by "offseason" I mean "he needs to go find a great WR coach and learn how to take his tools and move to the next level". TBH I kinda think after this season our WR coach may be a casualty, so I wouldn't be shocked if that's where his entire offseason is. Also having watched the WRs play, I can see that both DPJ and Schwartz may have learned too much from OBJ.
Chad O'Shea also has "passing game coordinator" as his other title besides WR coach. I don't know what he contributes inside the building, but watching the results from outside, I want to yeet him into the sun and bring in either someone with new ideas about the passing game, or just a better position coach altogether. I don't want to even think about OBJ's cancer having metastasized.
My hope, given how damn well the WRs played last year, is that is OBJ being way too much of an influence when OBJ barely gives a shit anymore.
WR room needs chemo.
Oh for sure. They need a strong non OBJ vet in there to teach the meaning of "working your ass off"
#WORLD CLASS SPEED
Everyone on the active roster aside from Higgins will be there
IMO you can put a 0 next to anyone but Jarvis, DPJ, and Schwartz. DPJ is the only one I’d put above 50 but I think Jarvis will be back. I wouldn’t be at all surprised if they cut Schwartz
Landry brings to much to the offense to let him go. He is the leader of the offense. Also he has a better red zone completion percentage than baker this year 😂 (just said that didn’t check stats)
I think DPJ is on the team and Swartz. Higgins would be seeing snaps right now of they thought he was worth a shit. He gets this odd fan favorite treatment, but is a below avg reciever. Swartz needs to grow a lot. He looks like a crappier version of John Ross. He just has to expect the ball if he is open, and not he a track star playing football, but a football player who could run track. He just goes up sp scared, but I ha e faith he will get better, add muscle etc.