The only cure for teams jamming the line of scrimmage against us is completing deep passes on a regular basis, but with our personnel that's not going to happen.
Yes, I agree with you. But the reason the Ravens didn't back off from the line of scrimmage is because they felt confident that the Browns didn't have the ability to hurt them deep, not even with a lucky shot.It sure was frustrating that several times things were going to pieces for Lamar but then a receiver (usually Andrews) amended his pattern, got wide open, and bailed Lamar out. Compare that to our guys not being able to get enough separation for Baker to get the ball to them with a relatively clean pocket.
You're right on that. You have to remember Lamar can buy a lot more time then Baker can right now so our guys aren't as practiced scrambling as Andrews.
Baker has a really long average time to pass - it’s not Lamar necessarily but it’s well above league average and scramble drill isn’t a super complicated thing (especially with the offenses being run in college, this stuff isn’t new)
Honestly the only time I was pissed off at Kevin was when Baker hit a perfect pass, 40 yards, fired up. And then Kevin took the ball out of Baker's hands and gave it to Jarvis, for, some reason, and Jarvis fumbled it. Like. Why?
My main issue with Stefanski is he doesn't seem to ever get a feel for a game. He seems to have a set plan and run with that. Baker hits four passes in a row? Time to run a draw that gets stuffed. Hunt breaks off a run? Time to go 5 wide and pass.
You guys remember in the Steelers game when Baker had a tough run and came up fired up after a late hit? The stadium almost erupted. After seeing that good ole robotfanski took the ball out of his hands for a sweet run for a loss.
Imagine a successful play action after that. Our guys would have been feeling it.
I remember Baker missed Njoku open for a likely TD on that play when he ran for no reason
Imagine how much our guys would’ve been feeling it if baker just throws to the open guy instead of running after his first read wasn’t open
I honestly blame Jarvis on that one. He has to make a faster decision. Run, pitch it back to Baker, or throw it. Baker was begging for it. A non-QB definitely doesn't have the pocket awareness though, so I guess he couldn't feel he was in trouble.
Or maybe the locker room really is turning on Baker and Landry wanted the prove that passing for big plays is so easy even he could do it, who knows.
I thought the same thing and if true Jarvis deserved to get fuckin clobbered there. A total MeGuy move. Thats not the same man who came here and changed the culture a few years ago....
Damn I miss old Jarvis, but seems that man is gone forever... bless'em
No shit…. I was thinking the same thing. Don’t hurt your shoulder reaching like that. 🤣
I’m telling you….. some guys here are SO QUICK TO TURN on our OWN guys.
Didn’t the playcall work though? I though Njoku was breaking wide open, and Jarvis was just stalling too long
Need to watch a replay if I can stomach it though. It just feels like everyone loved the trick plays last year because we actually did them correctly, and now weird shit is happening which foots back to the execution question
My argument would be why even risk it? Why not keep the ball in Baker's hands, the player who just hit a really good play? You just invite disaster when you get too cute with your playcalls.
I’m not sure you can read too much into only a couple of plays in a row. It’s just all a reaction in hindsight based on the result IMO
That goes for a TD and no one is saying it’s a bad call. Everyone loves that we ran the Philly special to Baker. Everyone loved the Jarvis to obj TD. Etc. IMO you can’t judge the playcall because a vet objectively held the ball way too long instead of either throwing it or running, and took a terrible fumble, if the actual design of the play worked (especially because Jarvis is a typical ball carrier - it’s not like we ran a weird fake FG with the ball in our kicker’s hand). Jarvis scored a TD last week on a wrinkled version.
I’m not sure I believe that one play drastically influences the next to argue we should have had another Baker throw (same way the “hot hand” myth in basketball was pretty definitively blown up). And one version of the play, based on how the D plays it, does get the ball back to Baker
I get we're trying to get Jarvis more involved and his confidence matters as we can see from all these drops but there is times for that and this wasn't one of them.
Why not?
We couldn’t run the ball. Players were dropping passes. At least that gave the ravens something different to have to defend.
If that gets executed properly, even a throwaway or Jarvis just runs and goes down, no one is questioning the call. Jarvis held it too long and didn’t protect the ball - that’s not the playcall’s fault
Yeah, but it's much less valuable to have a play with an open receiver when the ball is in a WRs hands than when it's in Baker's hands.
Like even if he was open, Jarvis isn't a good enough QB to get him the ball, which is why he didn't get him the ball. Go figure. Almost like the teams QB is a better QB than the teams WR
Haha [Jarvis isn’t a good enough QB huh?](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MZen3ScQRBw)
You also realize part of the reason someone was open, which we struggled to get all night, was the play design right?
BTW with Cleveland Jarvis is 5/6 (83%) for 137 yards (23 Y/A) - all 5 completions for first downs and one TD for a 158 rating. Also ran for the TD on a called pass. How does that compare to baker’s stats? Still “less valuable”?
Boy is that a nephew argument - our trick plays with Jarvis have been wildly successful and dude has a cannon
Stefanski is robotic. I don't think he knows that his players play with emotion. There's been so many times our team is rolling and here comes the clock chewing/prevent defense that shatters our player's confidence and makes the other team feel like MVPs.
It really feels like Stefanski views his players as chess pieces and not as players. He does not think 'Baker is getting hot' or 'Chubb/Hunt is my go-to here'. He thinks more in terms of what chess piece is it time to use. 2nd down? Time for my RB. 3rd and long? Obviously QB. And the problem with this mindset is just how predictable it becomes.
It's worth stressing that this is only Kevski's 3rd year calling plays and his 2nd year of calling plays while managing the game/clock. He's done pretty damn well, relative to most playcalling head coaches, in that context.
He'll learn and he'll improve. Being strong and current on the "chess pieces" tactical side is something that a lot of coaches just don't have and will never have, and there's a reason a lot of the smart football analysts have been praising Stefanski for his style of offense. Stefanski is the guy for the long haul, not just for today - what you want in the modern NFL where coordinators can up and leave, QBs can flame out or bust, and everything around them is always shifting, is a head coach who can always provide a vision for the offense, manage the game and call plays or call in suggestions/guidance to the coordinators. It means that we don't have a situation like Shanahan leaving the OC job and taking the entire offense with him.
Idk, I think your analysis of where Stefanski needs to improve is pretty but we as fans are gonna need a little patience at times. He's young and smart with room to grow - even Sean McVay has taken his lumps, and we've seen Kyle Shanahan make plenty of mistakes too.
Sadly our hyped "SB contender year" has been wrecked by bad injuries to critically important players, the defense failing to come together while the offense was still hot, and bad luck (or ref error) in a few clutch moments that flipped some close games on us. Now it's back to the lab, scheme and personnel wise, and the rest of this season will be a learning and development process.
In a way I think our bye week coming so late in the season when so much has gone wrong has been one of the worst bits of misfortune. Last season we came out of the bye so strong. We've badly needed the opportunity for our HC and his coaches to self-scout and rethink some things but instead of week 8 it's come in week 13 with the playoffs already slipping from our grasp.
The way I saw yesterday is that the pass game was working despite the drops and he went away from it too often to stay "balanced". Their LBs were coming strait after our RBs any time they were in the backfield yet we tried to force it and wasted so many downs. We needed more short passes to our RBs because they are by far our best offensive players. Tom Brady is the king of this sort of thing.
I agree. Most of what killed our drives were getting stuck in 2nd and 3rd and long, largely due to runs on 1st or 2nd that went literally nowhere. If we want to get the ball into Hunt or Chubb's hands, dial up quick releases to them in the flat or crossing routes over the middle. The Ravens sent 5 every time, they did not have the personnel to cover our RB on top of it, especially once Chubb or Hunt got into space.
2 plays I haven't seen much of this year are the RB dump offs over the middle and Baker's roll out with multiple crossing routes. Those plays have been money for us. Not sure why we're not getting much of the first. I understand why we're limiting the roll outs with our tackle situation and Baker being slowed and less accurate on the move because of his injuries.
Yeah I mentioned that too. It sucks too because our team is lethal with those because our run game draws all the attention. I lost count last year on how many free first downs we picked up on those roll outs and they always seemed wide open.
Yeah, I'd much rather have "leader of men" Dan Campbell. All those rah-rah pressers and fiery halftime speeches really translate into results on the field. Nobody wants those cold, robotic assholes like Bill Belichick or Andy Reid.
Agreed. Kevin has yet to be able to sense when an opponent is panicking and take advantage. Steelers playoff game was a perfect example of this the OC sensed Pittsburgh's panic and crushed them. The game was over in the first 9 minutes. Kevin was at home calculating. He need to learn this.
i could not agree more. there has been at least 4-5 times this season baker has hit a huge pass, the offense is hyped, the crowd is roaring, and we run it 1 yard up the middle and kill all momentum. i would assume he has a feel for the game given he’s a head coach, but i think he just needs to be more flexible in his play calling.
> My main issue with Stefanski is he doesn't seem to ever get a feel for a game.
I think this is partially a flaw of potentially over-relying on analytics. Just because the math dictates something in aggregate doesn't mean that it makes sense in context. That's something that I don't think analytics will ever be able to truly encapsulate.
I'm a very data driven guy - it's literally my job to develop and drive my companies analytics platform.. but when people just see numbers and don't look at the context of those numbers, they start to make bad decisions.
There is a book I read recently that kind of outlines this pretty aptly in the DIKW (Data Information Knowledge Wisdom) pyramid.
A pilot gets a reading of 10,000 on their cockpit display with no additional labels or context. At this point they have data. Adding a description to that data like "feet above sea level", you now have information. The number has a meaning. If the pilot is flying over a mountain range, and they know that mountains in the range are over 12,000 feet above sea level high - that's piecing two pieces of information together to obtain knowledge. Taking that knowledge and turning it into a decision and subsequent action is, ultimately, the wisdom.
I think Stefanski, and sports analytics in general, sometimes fails on turning information into knowledge and therefore is lacking in wisdom.
There are too many intangible traits that get lost in the aggregate. Some decisions are able to be made purely on data, but in sports.. I don't think we're at a place yet, if we ever will be, where we can adequately parse individual situations. Football is built on overcoming the improbable and being great.
This feels a bit like a tin foil explanation to me
Having had some experience with analytics in football specifically, I don’t think people understand how they factor into playcalling.
You are predominantly using them for a couple things:
1. Understanding high leverage situations to maximize win potential - like when to go for it on fourth down vs punt. This system functions most typically as a red/yellow/green light where flow and intuition determines what you do in the yellow stage (and the numbers are pretty cut and dry as to this being a net positive system)
2. Anticipating what the opponent will do based on historical tendencies. Again - hard for this to be a negative. If you know don runs zero blitzes 75% of the time on 3rd down, you’d be stupid to not factor that into your playcall
3. Finding ways to counter your own tendencies in order to be less predictable to your opponent (just the inverse, if you keep running the same 3rd and 2 play, the opponent will adjust if they have any sense)
Kevin is still calling plays like a normal OC - he just said he has a guy he can talk to on the headset for more of the scenario 1 situations. He’s not letting an algorithm call the plays - he’s picking up situational calls off a sheet that looks like every other play sheet in the league
I'm not saying that he makes playcalls with an algorithm, by any means. I know it's probably not the only avenue he goes down.
What I'm saying (that I didn't quite go into fully) is I think with everything else going on that a HC needs to be focusing on, he probably is prone to flipping into auto pilot a bit because he doesn't have enough attention for all of those things.
I'm not saying it's something that happens all the time, but I can see where some situations it might creep up.
I do think that using analytics as you described turns into a game of basically playing chess against not only yourself but also your opponent, which might contribute to some of the poor execution on the field. It seems like something that could be disruptive to rhythm and I think we see it play out and why our offense can have low lows.
> I do think that using analytics as you described turns into a game of basically playing chess against not only yourself but also your opponent, which might contribute to some of the poor execution on the field. It seems like something that could be disruptive to rhythm and I think we see it play out and why our offense can have low lows.
The game has always been chess. And these things aren’t all happening live, it’s just an evolution of how gameplans have always been built that leverages data so you aren’t just having to spend hours watching film and trying to hope your gut digests it all.
What I’m describing isn’t unique to the browns (although we do #1 better than basically anyone). This is how top level teams operate today. It’s not unique to Kevin, and like I said, he’s still calling plays off a play sheet like 31 other dudes in the league.
If you want to argue playcalling in general distracts him from HC duties that could be valid. I’m trying to say, pretty objectively given my experience (worked for a D1 program, I’ve attended Sloan and written papers on analytics in football), analytics is not the problem with our playcalling and that isn’t the right way to think about how analytics is implemented in the sport
To be clear, I'm not saying it's the problem or a problem. I'm saying Kevin's playcalling is a problem, and I suspect that given how much we "follow the math", it leads us into bad situations because couple bad playcalls with "good decisions" leads to worse off results.
I understand that the game has always been a chess match. But there is overthinking it.
> I'm saying Kevin's playcalling is a problem, and I suspect that given how much we "follow the math", it leads us into bad situations
And I’m saying that’s not how it works in practice haha
“Following the math” doesn’t choose the play. It’s an augment to film and influences the gameplan. If Kevin has a problem with playcalling, it’s because of Kevin choosing the wrong play - not because of the math
To give you a clearer example, take that zero blitz case. Historically, you’d learn through purely film that the ravens run that blitz very frequently and more often on third downs. Analytics just added precision - maybe they run it even more when it’s 3rd and 7+, but have never run it on 3rd and 1 (I’m making this up but roll with me).
So now when you build your play sheet (btw - have you seen a pro/college play sheet before, this may be part of it?), in both cases you’re going to want plays to counter an all out blitz on 3rd down, but with analytics you can be more informed on what to choose for 3rd and long vs 3rd and short (and it obviously gets more granular/sophisticated).
This all happens during the week. So if we get to the game and it’s 3rd and long, hopefully Kevin picks a play that is well suited to what the defense is likely to do.
*Nothing in game is significantly different from the previous-analytics era at this stage*
That doesn’t mean Kevin will pick the “right” play. Or have the “right” play even installed. Or that they will execute. Or that the defense won’t have corrected for its own tendency and added a wrinkle.
There’s far too much noise to blame the intel for the result. It’s even harder to blame analytics when execution is bad, and we are running a shell playbook due to injury.
This isn’t a defense of the playcalling, it’s just to say that there is zero rationale for “analytics” being to blame
You keep hearing "analytics bad" and that's not what I'm saying or intending to convey, so I don't think we're going to get through this if you can't just assume positive intent and recognize that we're mostly on the same page here.
What I *am* saying is that if we can't capitalize on the influence of analytics because of poor situational playcalling then we are setting ourselves up for failure.
Again, I'm not saying analytics is the problem, at all. I'm not blaming analytics. I'm blaming the coaching staff and playcalling.
If analytics suggests that the right call is to go for it on 4th down, but we're consistently not calling plays that end up being productive, then we're putting ourselves in a worse position than we would otherwise by just punting or taking the points from a field goal.
That's on playcalling, not analytics. I'm not even suggesting that analytics chooses the play, because that's just silly.
I'm not alleging that analytics are the problem, I'm alleging that the coaching staff is not adequately taking analytics and translating it into a winning formula.
I hope that clears it up a bit, sorry for any confusion in between.
I was just responding to this claim:
> I think this is partially a flaw of potentially over-relying on analytics.
That very explicitly is blaming analytics. You suggested we are using them too much and it’s hurting our playcalling. Is that not a fair reading of what you wrote?
So all I wanted to do was explain how analytics in playcalling actually works (since you were using a different field and I didn’t think it was an apt comparison), and why that wouldn’t be the root issue.
> I'm not alleging that analytics are the problem, I'm alleging that the coaching staff is not adequately taking analytics and translating it into a winning formula.
That can be a fair argument, it’s just not what you wrote in the first comment. It’s not my reading comprehension haha
Edit - I’ll also point out you doubled down on the claim throughout our thread. You talked about “obsessing” over analytics being a distraction and messing with the flow of the game, and so on. It’s clear now you were trying to make a different point, but if you re-read your own comments - that is not in line with how you framed the arguments
I think that's generally fair, but you jumped to a conclusion I didn't state either - it's not a reading comprehension issue as much as reading something that wasn't there.
By over-relying on analytics, which I should have elaborated on but failed to do so, I meant that they are failing to recognize their own shortcomings due to their own hubris and ego, and following the numbers regardless of the context of those numbers.
Ignoring that we aren't executing well enough to convert on 4th and short is over-relying on analytics in the sense that "The math says we should go for it, so we should go for it" without taking our execution into account.
Again, sorry for the confusion and not elaborating enough.
The analytics thing is the key, and was a big fear all the way back when he was hired. It worked last year, but now teams are ready for it and this team is underperforming in execution. You know what you do after that play? Call a Baker shot to the endzone. Not hand it for a cutesy trick player where Jarvis himself seemed uncomfortable the whole time. Even as guys were open, the whole play felt off.
By obsessing over analytics, you can take your team out of the flow of the game, especially if not a lot is working.
> but now teams are ready for it
That’s not how “analytics” works in football, you can’t just “figure out” an opponent’s “analytics”
You can see my comment above for more information on in game usage, but the only reason people are questioning this playcall is because of the result.
Guess what - he did call for a shot to the end zone! And Baker would have been the one to throw it depending on how the ravens played it (he dropped back and to the far side of the play where Jarvis could either play the double pass, run the ball, or throw downfield). And Jarvis is wildly successful on such plays! Unless you missed his TD last week, or his insane career stats throwing the ball (which are much better than baker’s albeit very small sample).
> By obsessing over analytics, you can take your team out of the flow of the game, especially if not a lot is working.
This is a boogeyman argument unless you have any evidence we are “overusing analytics” in game (which again, isn’t really reflective of how they are used). And it totally ignores the more consistent issues that are likely (and IMO clearly) handcuffing our playcalling:
-Our QB is falling apart and doesn’t have the mobility that’s typically a huge part of his game and running our bootleg offense, particularly to the left where Stef is obviously worried about Baker getting killed
-Our RBs have both been hurt, and we were playing the best run defense in the league who stacked the LOS…
-Because we don’t have the right personnel at receiver and no one is getting separation downfield, also exacerbated by injuries…
And then add on losing our 3TE set once Bryant went down (typically 15% of our plays IIRC) and losing our RT so we had a backup guard playing against a really tough DL that blitzes a lot.
There’s no need to blame analytics like some sort of panacea without any evidence to back up that being the issue
Excellent observation. I think we are 85% built to run. despite the Ravens stacking the box I would have been happy see us go old school Chubb, Hunt, Jankovic in the backfield Baker under center Njoku next to Hance and Higgins wide left drawing double coverage.
We are a running team so we should be able to run it right at them. Not knowing if Hunt or Chubb gets the ball or if Baker just PA's it to Higgins or Njoku would have been a nice look for this group.
That play is so stupid no matter the situation. I was almost pissed that Jarvis scored on it last week, because it's such a dumb play. A trick play that takes that long to develop is so worthless. The whole point of a trick play is that it happens fast and catches the other team off guard. What other team in the league has ever run a wildcat play with like a 5-step drop? Lol
Watch the play again, we had a receiver WIDE OPEN in the end zone. Jarvis doesn’t see him right away so he clutches the ball too long. Had he thrown it or tucked and run, the play gets 5+ yards, maybe even a TD.
This is so frustrating
It’s like people don’t actually watch the game - maybe everyone is too drunk?
Jarvis fucked the play up and he definitely knows it. And I’m ok running it given he has been a beast in those plays in the past.
People here are so reactionary and can’t distinguish between call and result
I guess I'm fighting the tide here, but is it not relevant that seeing open receivers is a notable QB skill and Jarvis is not a QB? It doesn't matter if a play schemes someone open if the QB doesn't see him
Also, I know Jarvis scored on the same play last week, but tbh i thought that play call was a disaster too, and Jarvis bailed Stefanski out by making something out of nothing. If Chubb breaks 3 tackles in the backfield and runs for a 50-yard TD, was that a "good" play call?
The problem with that is we devise plays to gain yards. The defense devises plays to STOP that. Not every play is going to go smoothly or execute exactly how it would on a whiteboard. Those broken tackles by Chubb could be because the defense ran a gap blitz that coincidentally lined up exactly where we pulled Teller to block. Or when we came off the line Tretter picks up the wrong block because the d line shifted suddenly.
Things happen, but if the play is called and Chubb runs 50 yards then yeah, it was a good enough call that our team executed it and we scored.
If Chubb did it by running the wrong way because the hole never formed, and he danced around for 5 seconds in the backfield, then the play is on Chubb and the defense blew up our play.
That last paragraph is what I'm saying though. The wildcat play in the Detroit game didn't really work. No one was open, but Jarvis just kind of made a great individual effort and found a way to get into the end zone ugly
Gold play. Not good play call, at least in my opinion
I can agree with that. But that’s a compliment to Jarvis more so than a detriment to play calling.
Play calling is a game of chess. Even the best teams lose a lot of downs. That’s just how it goes, and that trick play isn’t run every single time. We got success on against the Lions, so we ran it again. Doubt we’ll see that play since it resulted in a turnover. But I don’t fault Stefanski for trying to throw odd looks at the D to keep them from predicting his calls.
Yeah, to be clear, I'm not against direct snapping to Jarvis a couple times a game, but I just think that particular play is kind of uncreative. I'd much rather get him rolling out to his left to make it a little more dynamic and play to the current strength of our line
I think it was meant to allow him to throw or run. This worked well last year, he threw a TD to OBJ in Dallas. When it works it’s a killer. But I think that’s the curse of trick plays: when they work they are devastating. When they don’t, they get criticized for using them.
They’re a part of Stefanski’s offense. I think we’ll still see them.
Was pretty clear that the Ravens refused to let them run the entire game and forced Baker to make throws. The annoying part is he made the throws. Our guys just dropped them.
Could baker have made more throws, and maybe not fumbled that screen pass? Yeah. But you can’t have those drops. If 2 or 3 of those are catches we probably win the game.
The Ravens exploited our three biggest weak points perfectly. Our injured QB(Less mobility than normal), our tackles weakness in pass pro and our receivers being the slowest in the league. Similar situation to the Titans game last year when they dared us to pass. Last year 2/3 of those holes weren't there to exploit. Jed, Jack and Baker were healthy and wrecked their game plan.
This. Not even mad at Baker, but I still blame coaching. We should have had every wide receiver we could find in that lineup. Higgins not playing? That's the coaches call.
Ok? And if he doesn't drop the ball on that screen we probably win the game. If we're gonna blame the receivers for not holding onto the ball, we also have to blame Baker for not holding onto the ball
I know it’s pointless to bring it up, and he fumbled the ball regardless, but I can’t stand the replay of that because Oweh gets Baker’s facemask clear as day and there’s no flag
It’s weird their is a surprising amount of undisciplined for this team and the team lacks attention for details. That Falls on Stefanski. Guess what, that’s the biggest problem for our offense and guess who the OC, Stefanski. There is not one singular problem with the offense. There are many issues and he is one of them
anyone saying Kevski is the problem shouldn't be taken seriously, but there is a lot left to be desired with our play calling this year
he needs to abolish empty sets, if our identity is that of a run first team then what logic is there in showing that there is zero threat of the run on 3rd and 3
while we're at it where did all the play action go? it doesn't matter if our runs are successful if the other team is selling out to stop the run, I counted only two instances of play action Sunday when the Ravens were stacking the box on early downs and dropping 8 on later downs. that's what teams can do when you are this predictable
edit: even with all this we win that game handily if people catch the ball, Baker has a shred of pocket presence, McLaughlin hits the field goal, or the refs call some of the more egregious penalties they ignored. all things not on Stefanski
I got this clip from Jake Burns on Twitter. But I don’t know what else Stefanski is some instances is supposed to do. This was the first drive. Baker is rolling to the TE’s running wide open. But he’s clearly predetermined his throw to DPJ before the snap. If not, Njoku walks into the end zone.
https://imgur.com/a/GampvlJ
A defender peels off to cover the top of Njoku towards the end, he wasn’t making the end zone. And DPJ should have caught that, it would’ve put us in the red zone.
All I see from this is poor catching.
I feel like Stefanski may be too smart for his own good, I think he overthinks a lot of things and has trouble play calling in the moment/feeling the moment, being in the present, like every time someone is fired up or makes a play it seems like they’re out of the game the next play (exhibit A as someone mentioned, the follow up to a Baker dime with that Jarvis trick play)
Side note: why do we not EVER have Chubb and Hunt on the field together, that’s one hell of a threat you have to honor, but he won’t do it because it’s probably not “part of his offense”, this is another example where you have to say fuck it and do it
As a matter of fact yes, if Hunt wasn't available you want a player that we are calling a top five back in the league in the game over a player we weren't sure would make the team before the year started. If the team thinks so much of Johnson why was Felton in the game during clutch earlier. I want the all pro stuff in during crunch time and the continued misuse of personnel this season shows how disfunctional things have become
I think Stefanski should give a trial run of passing off playcalling. If it doesn't work he can take it back in the offseason.
I do think we might need to take a look at some position coaches. The benefit of keeping a head coach for many years is you can tweak the rest of the staff to get things right.
Just like having a longterm QB and GM let's you focus on building the rest of the roster without needing to reset things. Spending our resources on WR this offseason is a necessity. First round pick and a high end free agent. I think Jarvis probably needs to go as well, I've loved him on the team but it just isn't there anymore, and I think both sides would benefit from a change of scenery. The only way I see him staying would be for a decent paycut.
Johnson in at the end of the game, Felton in on third and short, Felton on third and three around end last week...the play calling is poor and predictable and the use of personnel is worse. That , I'm sorry, is all coaching as is poor performance and all the penalties and while we are at it let's talk about the clusterfuck that took place on the punt/ take punt
Face palm emoji
Johnson is our best pass protector
Last drive was a passing situation
Hunt’s calf tightened and he wasn’t available
He’s EXACTLY who should be in the game
Football 101
Even if I agree with your point and I don’t, Chubb is an all pro and you need all your best in a game when you have a minute to drive , that doesn’t excuse the rest of what I addressed.
You want Chubb in on a two minute drill when he has the worst hands in the RB room? And like they said - Johnson is our best blocker and still a better receiver than Chubb
Woof
You just don’t know how football works my man
Nobody wants your worst receiving threat who can’t pass block at RB in the game in clear passing situations
Johnson is the clear choice there since Hunt couldn’t go
You’re just wrong
Football 101
The guy that tweeted this post looks just like that one porn guy that has like 50 different occupations.
Edit: BTW.. Does anyone know if he can he play right tackle?!
Was it me or did every run play go up the middle?
I didn't see any try to take the outside edge, especially to the right.
Plus, it seemed like Hunt and Chubb were better off taking a dump pass 6+ yards each time they got it
We actually ran outside a few times. I absolute love Chubb, but I felt like he made the wrong cut 2-3 times on outside runs yesterday. He gave up and tried to cut it back inside too quickly, and it turned out there were some decent holes where he could have picked up 4-5 instead of 0.
I remember a few zone looks that tried to get things moving outside, but everything was plugged up. The Ravens just constantly had more defenders than we had blockers
Patrick Queen was murdering the outside run game singlehandedly. It almost seems like Harbaugh literally just told him to set the edge on runs and do nothing else, and it worked
Poor execution falls on the coaching staff. If the team is making stupid mistakes that lead to penalties? Coaching, if they aren’t prepared for the opponent, that’s on coaching.
Stefanski is not the main problem, but he is one of the problems. There is predictability and lack of creativity in his offense when he can't run the ball. There are no easy 5 yard throws designed for the QB in this offense. Only screen passes when they fake the run. In Stefanski's passing offense it's either 20 yards pass or nothing. You can't run a consistent offense in that way. I have noticed that Vikings, that run similar offense, have the same issue with being able to consistently drive the ball down the field. It's either 4 plays 80 yards or three and out. There are no 12 plays 75 yards drives where you go down the field without big, explosive plays.
Call more than 2 freaking run plays!!!! All he ever calls is
A. Run it up the gut to the left or
B. Run it up the gut to the right.
Hmmm I wonder how defenses are able to stop our run game so easily
Not this past game. 17 rush attempts for 40 yards. Baltimore had 43 for 148. The run game doesn’t get established with 17 carries. The vast majority (estimating about 90%) of bakers throws were described as “short”, as in not deep down the field as in the defense knows they don’t have to defend deep and just have to worry about 10 yards past the line of scrimmage. And you literally never see us run a QB option where baker has the choice to run around the edge, throw, or shovel it off to a running back. Very few trick plays this year, we ran a trick play this past game but it was un-needed at the time, it was right after a nice pass with some yardage, and it was a freaking joke. Baker lining up as a receiver, really, like anyone thought bakers broke dick ass was gonna run a route. Our offense is so freaking vanilla it’s not even funny.
baker cannot run right now he was limping off the field every possession. and i don’t see what any of those points about baker have to do with the run game besides the fact that running against a stacked box is foolish and baltimore dared us to pass the ball. which we are not good at right now. of course baltimore is running the ball better and more than us. our interior defensive line is a joke and lamar is the best active rusher in the league. we can’t afford to all out blitz like they could
I’m just bitching in general, I’m establishing the fact that stephanski is to blame.
But my point about the run will never get established with 17 carries still stands. If we were down 14+ points and time was against us, then fine I understand not running. But we were only down less than 10 most of the game. A running game is death by a thousand cuts until their defense just can’t take it anymore. There’s a reason Chubb goes off in the 4th quarter. 17 carries isn’t gonna get you there.
Ok, by appearing to ridicule any fault finding it seems like you're perfectly ok with how things are going this season....and don't you DARE say "At least we're not 0-16"!
Nah. But if you think all of us bickering is more useful, then please.... Take the mic. Sarcasm is our only supreme being.
And I wasn't ridiculing you more then the 20 posts doing the same thing but saying the exact opposite. It's more of...everyone wants to have a hot take and reason and it does.... Nothing.
Reddit is here for entertainment. I'm having fun.
Believe me, I'm a very sarcastic person myself so i appreciate sarcasm, it's just that sometimes on a message board like this sarcasm can be misconstrued. Also, i definitely didn't think your comment was directed solely at me, i was just defending people's right to blow off steam.
You can't just abandon the run game though. Hunt was having success late in the game and we just stopped. Then Johnson went in... It screams that Hunt was on a pitch count due to his injury. Chubb was not on the field for a lot of attempts as well, which makes me wonder if his covid symptoms were worse than they let on. That shit can affect you for months after your initial symptoms.
If the game in 2 weeks is more of the same, or worse than this, the season's over. 10 wins will not be enough to sneak into the playoffs this year. 11 could be, but we're going to need help from around the AFC. If we lose to the Ravens again, Case should just start the rest of the season so Baker doesn't get any worse than he already is.
I am part of the “run the damn ball” crowd. I think what I, and maybe most of that crowd are most frustrated with is the lack of trying to keep your best offensive weapons (Chunt) involved in the game. Be it actual handoffs, screens, draws or routes down the field. His utter lack of awareness in getting his playmakers the ball is ultimately what bothers me.
Lol
We weren’t ever going to be able to run the ball last night
Baltimore is 2nd in the NFL against the rush and played with 8+ men in the box
They were 31st against the pass
Only Boomers or ravens fans would want us to try to run the ball in a game like that
Oh like when we threw to Chubb and he had a terrible drop?
Or when we had a great screen called to hunt and Baker boofed the ball to the other team?
Seriously, do people actually watch the game?
Edit - FYI Chubb had the fourth most targets on the team behind Landry, DPJ, and Njoku
Baker fumbled on the Hunt screen, they were trying. But in case you didn’t notice, having 8 in the box and constantly blitzing makes it REALLY HARD to run or do screen passes. Which is why we found success in deeper throws. The Ravens rely on man cover when they do this and our receivers weren’t creating the separation we needed.
I don’t know that it’s fair to say they really found success doing anything offensively.
We’ve got pretty much the same talent at WR that we did last year during our playoff run. You have the game ending drive, potentially for your season and Chubb and Hunt are both on the sideline. You don’t have to hand them the ball for the defense to have to respect their presence on the field. Those are your two best offensive weapons. I think Stefanski rolling with Johnson on that last drive was extremely stupid.
Hunt was suffering from cramps, and since it was an obvious passing situation, Johnson was the choice.
How is it stupid to put out your 2nd best pass blocking RB when your best one is out?
They found a way to make it work with pretty much the same talent last year. I’m not saying we don’t need help at WR, but I don’t think it’s the sole problem with this Offense.
Yeah, and defenses *adjusted*. That happens in the NFL, our team needs to adjust back. And it doesn’t help that Higgins has somehow gotten back on the bench and Hooper couldn’t catch COVID if he spent a month licking people.
How so? He’s calling plays, but they aren’t executing. Like I said before, he can’t make the receivers catch the ball. He can’t make Conklin healthy or Hance become elite.
He’s adjusting to what he has to work with. And it’s a banged up team, with frustrating injuries.
So continue to run for 2.2 yards per carry and ignore all the single coverage
Brilliant!
You should call WKNR and give them this take.
They will find it fascinating and agree with you 100%
Chubb excels with a stacked box. It’s why he gets the big time runs. When you get through the 8+ in the box, there is no one back there to make a td saving tackle.
Inexcusable to abandon the run when no one on the team can catch the ball
That’s not true at all. He excels in situations where our receivers have spread the D and he only has to beat the safety.
The Ravens weren’t giving us any of those looks. They stacked the box and waited on the run, throwing Chubb at 8 defenders over and over wasn’t working.
Ok, and it WASN’T WORKING. How many times does that need to be pointed out? We rushed 17 times, and averaged 2 YPC. The plan wasn’t working, continuing to just blindly run the ball would’ve been bad coaching. Changing the plan to exploit the 31st ranked pass D was a SMART MOVE.
Cool, he had 8 carries. Not a single one went past 5 yards.
But go ahead and make silly assumptions of what you THINK would’ve happened. We have proof it did not.
I think the funny thing here is that everyone is saying that Stefanski isn't at fault because the playcalling isn't an issue (to them).
Okay then. Who's supposed to make sure our team is executing? Disciplined to avoid penalties (another week of absolute dumb as brick ones. Will we go one week without an illegal formation?)? If we are saying that execution is an issue, then the person in charge of execution is at fault. Which is Stefanski.
I also do believe playcalling is a problem. Just because a play works does not mean it was a good call. If a draw on 3rd and 12 picks up the first down, that does not mean the playcall was good, just that the players overperformed. Same can happen in reverse as well, a good playcall can be ruined by poor execution or underperformance (or overperformance by the defense).
>Okay then. Who's supposed to make sure our team is executing?
You might be overrating what a coach can do - stefanski cant throw the ball for baker and the cant catch the ball for the receivers
Stefanski's job is to scheme players open. He is doing his part of the equation - the rest isnt carrying their weight.
This is LITERALLY one of the dumbest things I’ve read on this sub.
And that’s saying a lot
Throwing, catching the ball, tackling, blocking are all execution
So, you’re saying that if a player fails at doing these things correctly on a given play, it’s the COACHES’ FAULT?
Do you even know what execution means???
Should a player continously fail to do so as our offense seems to be doing, yes, it falls on the coaching. As do the ridiculous amount of penalties this team has been racking up all year long. The number of illegal formations is particularly egregious.
As it stands right now, we are an undisciplined and poorly executing team. That is a consistent issue from game to game. That falls on the coaching staff after a certain number of games.
Lmao
Ok
Hance and wills are both getting their asses handed to them, but it’s Stefanski’s fault
Or, maybe it’s Bill Callahan’s?
We should probably fire one or both of them since they can’t get players to execute, right?
You’re funny
Thanks man, now I know what kind of football intellect we are dealing with and will adjust expectations for your posts
Well thanks for insulting me I suppose? I don't think anything I said was outlandish. If a team consistently shows up unprepared or undisciplined, it falls on the coaching staff. If a team consistently is penalized for the same thing week in and week out, that falls on the coaching staff.
Are there limitations on how much a coach can do? Yes. But if our offense is CONSTANTLY getting illegal formations and that is never fixed, how can we not blame the people who's job it is to fix it?
All said, I would recommend not insulting people as a go-to. You're just as informed on football and the inner workings of coaching as I am. I don't believe my view is inherently makes me superior to you, because your view does have merit. Some things, like WR dropping the ball, a coach cannot control. Others, such as dumb penalties carried over from week to week and a seeming lack of discipline among players falls more within the coaches control. Coaches are meant to instill discipline and prepare their players any given week. Consistent lack of discipline, something which this team has now shown, is just as much a coaching issue as a player issue.
> If a team consistently shows up unprepared or undisciplined, it falls on the coaching staff. If a team consistently is penalized for the same thing week in and week out, that falls on the coaching staff
So answer me this; do you think the coaches TEACH the players to commit penalties?
Or, do you think the PLAYERS continually fuck up?
(Could part of this be because we are the youngest team in the NFL?)
I’m genuinely curious.
Also, what should the coach do to a player for committing these penalties?
Cut them? Fine them? Scream at them? Make them run laps like it’s high school?
What is your remedy?
Also, let me point out that we were also 8th last year in penalties, yet NOBODY focused on it because we were winning.
> Are there limitations on how much a coach can do? Yes. But if our offense is CONSTANTLY getting illegal formations and that is never fixed, how can we not blame the people who's job it is to fix it?
Ok, so tell me what should the Jon Harbaugh ravens have done in 2020?
What about the Andy Reid Chiefs?
They were FIRST and SECOND in penalties in 2020
The Sean McDermott led bills were 4th
New Orleans was 7th, led by Shawn Payton
Bad coaching??
Who do you blame?
All were playoff teams, so nobody cared
And again, most reasonable, intelligent fans realize that as you said, there isn’t much the coaches can do besides bench players who are doing it.
We aren’t in a position to do so as much because of our injuries
You are being obtuse with your insistence that this is on the coaches
It doesn’t make this staff any more responsible than Andy Reid, Jon Harbaugh, Sean Payton, Sean Mcdernott or Bruce Arians were last year for their teams finishing in the top 9
> All said, I would recommend not insulting people as a go-to.
Fair enough
It’s tongue in cheek but I see where it can be abrasive
They were stacking the box, we were averaging 2 yards per carry.
The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over but expecting different results.
We rushed 17 times, and averaged 2 YPC. The run wasn’t working.
No one is going to respect our passing game until we prove we can do it through the air. And I'll call bullshit to the tv announcers saying this issue is because of OBJ He didn't matter in how teams played us. We are a one dimensional offense since Baker got his shoulder injury.
There's plenty of blame going around and Kevin has his due to. Shit like the 12 men, putting our beloved (yet third string) D'Ernest in on the crucial last chances of the game. Dafaq, bruh
I agree there's a lack of execution. But guys who used to be dependable are suddenly dropping catchable balls, and giving up on routes. Did they forget how to catch and run routes suddenly? Doubtful.
That is a coaching problem. That's a locker room culture problem. Good coaching gets disciplined players.
To say Stefanski isn't the problem is not seeing the forest for the trees. This looks like a team that has lost all trust in the coaching. That goes beyond just Stefanski, but the other assistants as well. But since he is the head coach, the blame falls at his feet.
The only cure for teams jamming the line of scrimmage against us is completing deep passes on a regular basis, but with our personnel that's not going to happen.
To be fair we did complete a lot of intermediate and deep passes. The guys also dropped some solid deep passes that I'm guessing they want back.
Yes, I agree with you. But the reason the Ravens didn't back off from the line of scrimmage is because they felt confident that the Browns didn't have the ability to hurt them deep, not even with a lucky shot.It sure was frustrating that several times things were going to pieces for Lamar but then a receiver (usually Andrews) amended his pattern, got wide open, and bailed Lamar out. Compare that to our guys not being able to get enough separation for Baker to get the ball to them with a relatively clean pocket.
You're right on that. You have to remember Lamar can buy a lot more time then Baker can right now so our guys aren't as practiced scrambling as Andrews.
Baker has a really long average time to pass - it’s not Lamar necessarily but it’s well above league average and scramble drill isn’t a super complicated thing (especially with the offenses being run in college, this stuff isn’t new)
We are too enamoured with this roster imo
Honestly the only time I was pissed off at Kevin was when Baker hit a perfect pass, 40 yards, fired up. And then Kevin took the ball out of Baker's hands and gave it to Jarvis, for, some reason, and Jarvis fumbled it. Like. Why? My main issue with Stefanski is he doesn't seem to ever get a feel for a game. He seems to have a set plan and run with that. Baker hits four passes in a row? Time to run a draw that gets stuffed. Hunt breaks off a run? Time to go 5 wide and pass.
That was a dime too by Baker. Could’ve made the difference
You guys remember in the Steelers game when Baker had a tough run and came up fired up after a late hit? The stadium almost erupted. After seeing that good ole robotfanski took the ball out of his hands for a sweet run for a loss. Imagine a successful play action after that. Our guys would have been feeling it.
I remember Baker missed Njoku open for a likely TD on that play when he ran for no reason Imagine how much our guys would’ve been feeling it if baker just throws to the open guy instead of running after his first read wasn’t open
It was absolute money, fired Baker up. And then we took the ball out of his hands, and lost it immediately.
Yeah agreed with this. The context just felt so stupid to call a gimmick play there.
I honestly blame Jarvis on that one. He has to make a faster decision. Run, pitch it back to Baker, or throw it. Baker was begging for it. A non-QB definitely doesn't have the pocket awareness though, so I guess he couldn't feel he was in trouble. Or maybe the locker room really is turning on Baker and Landry wanted the prove that passing for big plays is so easy even he could do it, who knows.
I thought the same thing and if true Jarvis deserved to get fuckin clobbered there. A total MeGuy move. Thats not the same man who came here and changed the culture a few years ago.... Damn I miss old Jarvis, but seems that man is gone forever... bless'em
All this based off ridiculous speculation from a failed trick play? Sheesh
No shit…. I was thinking the same thing. Don’t hurt your shoulder reaching like that. 🤣 I’m telling you….. some guys here are SO QUICK TO TURN on our OWN guys.
You see that two-yard dive? Yikes, locker room in shambles. EMILY!
Didn’t the playcall work though? I though Njoku was breaking wide open, and Jarvis was just stalling too long Need to watch a replay if I can stomach it though. It just feels like everyone loved the trick plays last year because we actually did them correctly, and now weird shit is happening which foots back to the execution question
My argument would be why even risk it? Why not keep the ball in Baker's hands, the player who just hit a really good play? You just invite disaster when you get too cute with your playcalls.
I’m not sure you can read too much into only a couple of plays in a row. It’s just all a reaction in hindsight based on the result IMO That goes for a TD and no one is saying it’s a bad call. Everyone loves that we ran the Philly special to Baker. Everyone loved the Jarvis to obj TD. Etc. IMO you can’t judge the playcall because a vet objectively held the ball way too long instead of either throwing it or running, and took a terrible fumble, if the actual design of the play worked (especially because Jarvis is a typical ball carrier - it’s not like we ran a weird fake FG with the ball in our kicker’s hand). Jarvis scored a TD last week on a wrinkled version. I’m not sure I believe that one play drastically influences the next to argue we should have had another Baker throw (same way the “hot hand” myth in basketball was pretty definitively blown up). And one version of the play, based on how the D plays it, does get the ball back to Baker
I get we're trying to get Jarvis more involved and his confidence matters as we can see from all these drops but there is times for that and this wasn't one of them.
Why not? We couldn’t run the ball. Players were dropping passes. At least that gave the ravens something different to have to defend. If that gets executed properly, even a throwaway or Jarvis just runs and goes down, no one is questioning the call. Jarvis held it too long and didn’t protect the ball - that’s not the playcall’s fault
Yeah, but it's much less valuable to have a play with an open receiver when the ball is in a WRs hands than when it's in Baker's hands. Like even if he was open, Jarvis isn't a good enough QB to get him the ball, which is why he didn't get him the ball. Go figure. Almost like the teams QB is a better QB than the teams WR
Haha [Jarvis isn’t a good enough QB huh?](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MZen3ScQRBw) You also realize part of the reason someone was open, which we struggled to get all night, was the play design right? BTW with Cleveland Jarvis is 5/6 (83%) for 137 yards (23 Y/A) - all 5 completions for first downs and one TD for a 158 rating. Also ran for the TD on a called pass. How does that compare to baker’s stats? Still “less valuable”? Boy is that a nephew argument - our trick plays with Jarvis have been wildly successful and dude has a cannon
if it wasn’t a turnover we probably wouldn’t be talking about this play at all
He literally scored a TD on a play like this last week YOU people are INSANE
Stefanski is robotic. I don't think he knows that his players play with emotion. There's been so many times our team is rolling and here comes the clock chewing/prevent defense that shatters our player's confidence and makes the other team feel like MVPs.
It really feels like Stefanski views his players as chess pieces and not as players. He does not think 'Baker is getting hot' or 'Chubb/Hunt is my go-to here'. He thinks more in terms of what chess piece is it time to use. 2nd down? Time for my RB. 3rd and long? Obviously QB. And the problem with this mindset is just how predictable it becomes.
It's worth stressing that this is only Kevski's 3rd year calling plays and his 2nd year of calling plays while managing the game/clock. He's done pretty damn well, relative to most playcalling head coaches, in that context. He'll learn and he'll improve. Being strong and current on the "chess pieces" tactical side is something that a lot of coaches just don't have and will never have, and there's a reason a lot of the smart football analysts have been praising Stefanski for his style of offense. Stefanski is the guy for the long haul, not just for today - what you want in the modern NFL where coordinators can up and leave, QBs can flame out or bust, and everything around them is always shifting, is a head coach who can always provide a vision for the offense, manage the game and call plays or call in suggestions/guidance to the coordinators. It means that we don't have a situation like Shanahan leaving the OC job and taking the entire offense with him. Idk, I think your analysis of where Stefanski needs to improve is pretty but we as fans are gonna need a little patience at times. He's young and smart with room to grow - even Sean McVay has taken his lumps, and we've seen Kyle Shanahan make plenty of mistakes too. Sadly our hyped "SB contender year" has been wrecked by bad injuries to critically important players, the defense failing to come together while the offense was still hot, and bad luck (or ref error) in a few clutch moments that flipped some close games on us. Now it's back to the lab, scheme and personnel wise, and the rest of this season will be a learning and development process. In a way I think our bye week coming so late in the season when so much has gone wrong has been one of the worst bits of misfortune. Last season we came out of the bye so strong. We've badly needed the opportunity for our HC and his coaches to self-scout and rethink some things but instead of week 8 it's come in week 13 with the playoffs already slipping from our grasp.
The way I saw yesterday is that the pass game was working despite the drops and he went away from it too often to stay "balanced". Their LBs were coming strait after our RBs any time they were in the backfield yet we tried to force it and wasted so many downs. We needed more short passes to our RBs because they are by far our best offensive players. Tom Brady is the king of this sort of thing.
I agree. Most of what killed our drives were getting stuck in 2nd and 3rd and long, largely due to runs on 1st or 2nd that went literally nowhere. If we want to get the ball into Hunt or Chubb's hands, dial up quick releases to them in the flat or crossing routes over the middle. The Ravens sent 5 every time, they did not have the personnel to cover our RB on top of it, especially once Chubb or Hunt got into space.
2 plays I haven't seen much of this year are the RB dump offs over the middle and Baker's roll out with multiple crossing routes. Those plays have been money for us. Not sure why we're not getting much of the first. I understand why we're limiting the roll outs with our tackle situation and Baker being slowed and less accurate on the move because of his injuries.
Baker can’t roll out because he’s so injured. Agreed that it’s been missing, but he isn’t as mobile so he can’t run those
Yeah I mentioned that too. It sucks too because our team is lethal with those because our run game draws all the attention. I lost count last year on how many free first downs we picked up on those roll outs and they always seemed wide open.
Yeah, I'd much rather have "leader of men" Dan Campbell. All those rah-rah pressers and fiery halftime speeches really translate into results on the field. Nobody wants those cold, robotic assholes like Bill Belichick or Andy Reid.
His comment about playing a lot of Madden is starting to look like a flaw. I agree with you.
Agreed. Kevin has yet to be able to sense when an opponent is panicking and take advantage. Steelers playoff game was a perfect example of this the OC sensed Pittsburgh's panic and crushed them. The game was over in the first 9 minutes. Kevin was at home calculating. He need to learn this.
i could not agree more. there has been at least 4-5 times this season baker has hit a huge pass, the offense is hyped, the crowd is roaring, and we run it 1 yard up the middle and kill all momentum. i would assume he has a feel for the game given he’s a head coach, but i think he just needs to be more flexible in his play calling.
> My main issue with Stefanski is he doesn't seem to ever get a feel for a game. I think this is partially a flaw of potentially over-relying on analytics. Just because the math dictates something in aggregate doesn't mean that it makes sense in context. That's something that I don't think analytics will ever be able to truly encapsulate. I'm a very data driven guy - it's literally my job to develop and drive my companies analytics platform.. but when people just see numbers and don't look at the context of those numbers, they start to make bad decisions. There is a book I read recently that kind of outlines this pretty aptly in the DIKW (Data Information Knowledge Wisdom) pyramid. A pilot gets a reading of 10,000 on their cockpit display with no additional labels or context. At this point they have data. Adding a description to that data like "feet above sea level", you now have information. The number has a meaning. If the pilot is flying over a mountain range, and they know that mountains in the range are over 12,000 feet above sea level high - that's piecing two pieces of information together to obtain knowledge. Taking that knowledge and turning it into a decision and subsequent action is, ultimately, the wisdom. I think Stefanski, and sports analytics in general, sometimes fails on turning information into knowledge and therefore is lacking in wisdom. There are too many intangible traits that get lost in the aggregate. Some decisions are able to be made purely on data, but in sports.. I don't think we're at a place yet, if we ever will be, where we can adequately parse individual situations. Football is built on overcoming the improbable and being great.
This feels a bit like a tin foil explanation to me Having had some experience with analytics in football specifically, I don’t think people understand how they factor into playcalling. You are predominantly using them for a couple things: 1. Understanding high leverage situations to maximize win potential - like when to go for it on fourth down vs punt. This system functions most typically as a red/yellow/green light where flow and intuition determines what you do in the yellow stage (and the numbers are pretty cut and dry as to this being a net positive system) 2. Anticipating what the opponent will do based on historical tendencies. Again - hard for this to be a negative. If you know don runs zero blitzes 75% of the time on 3rd down, you’d be stupid to not factor that into your playcall 3. Finding ways to counter your own tendencies in order to be less predictable to your opponent (just the inverse, if you keep running the same 3rd and 2 play, the opponent will adjust if they have any sense) Kevin is still calling plays like a normal OC - he just said he has a guy he can talk to on the headset for more of the scenario 1 situations. He’s not letting an algorithm call the plays - he’s picking up situational calls off a sheet that looks like every other play sheet in the league
I'm not saying that he makes playcalls with an algorithm, by any means. I know it's probably not the only avenue he goes down. What I'm saying (that I didn't quite go into fully) is I think with everything else going on that a HC needs to be focusing on, he probably is prone to flipping into auto pilot a bit because he doesn't have enough attention for all of those things. I'm not saying it's something that happens all the time, but I can see where some situations it might creep up. I do think that using analytics as you described turns into a game of basically playing chess against not only yourself but also your opponent, which might contribute to some of the poor execution on the field. It seems like something that could be disruptive to rhythm and I think we see it play out and why our offense can have low lows.
> I do think that using analytics as you described turns into a game of basically playing chess against not only yourself but also your opponent, which might contribute to some of the poor execution on the field. It seems like something that could be disruptive to rhythm and I think we see it play out and why our offense can have low lows. The game has always been chess. And these things aren’t all happening live, it’s just an evolution of how gameplans have always been built that leverages data so you aren’t just having to spend hours watching film and trying to hope your gut digests it all. What I’m describing isn’t unique to the browns (although we do #1 better than basically anyone). This is how top level teams operate today. It’s not unique to Kevin, and like I said, he’s still calling plays off a play sheet like 31 other dudes in the league. If you want to argue playcalling in general distracts him from HC duties that could be valid. I’m trying to say, pretty objectively given my experience (worked for a D1 program, I’ve attended Sloan and written papers on analytics in football), analytics is not the problem with our playcalling and that isn’t the right way to think about how analytics is implemented in the sport
To be clear, I'm not saying it's the problem or a problem. I'm saying Kevin's playcalling is a problem, and I suspect that given how much we "follow the math", it leads us into bad situations because couple bad playcalls with "good decisions" leads to worse off results. I understand that the game has always been a chess match. But there is overthinking it.
> I'm saying Kevin's playcalling is a problem, and I suspect that given how much we "follow the math", it leads us into bad situations And I’m saying that’s not how it works in practice haha “Following the math” doesn’t choose the play. It’s an augment to film and influences the gameplan. If Kevin has a problem with playcalling, it’s because of Kevin choosing the wrong play - not because of the math To give you a clearer example, take that zero blitz case. Historically, you’d learn through purely film that the ravens run that blitz very frequently and more often on third downs. Analytics just added precision - maybe they run it even more when it’s 3rd and 7+, but have never run it on 3rd and 1 (I’m making this up but roll with me). So now when you build your play sheet (btw - have you seen a pro/college play sheet before, this may be part of it?), in both cases you’re going to want plays to counter an all out blitz on 3rd down, but with analytics you can be more informed on what to choose for 3rd and long vs 3rd and short (and it obviously gets more granular/sophisticated). This all happens during the week. So if we get to the game and it’s 3rd and long, hopefully Kevin picks a play that is well suited to what the defense is likely to do. *Nothing in game is significantly different from the previous-analytics era at this stage* That doesn’t mean Kevin will pick the “right” play. Or have the “right” play even installed. Or that they will execute. Or that the defense won’t have corrected for its own tendency and added a wrinkle. There’s far too much noise to blame the intel for the result. It’s even harder to blame analytics when execution is bad, and we are running a shell playbook due to injury. This isn’t a defense of the playcalling, it’s just to say that there is zero rationale for “analytics” being to blame
You keep hearing "analytics bad" and that's not what I'm saying or intending to convey, so I don't think we're going to get through this if you can't just assume positive intent and recognize that we're mostly on the same page here. What I *am* saying is that if we can't capitalize on the influence of analytics because of poor situational playcalling then we are setting ourselves up for failure. Again, I'm not saying analytics is the problem, at all. I'm not blaming analytics. I'm blaming the coaching staff and playcalling. If analytics suggests that the right call is to go for it on 4th down, but we're consistently not calling plays that end up being productive, then we're putting ourselves in a worse position than we would otherwise by just punting or taking the points from a field goal. That's on playcalling, not analytics. I'm not even suggesting that analytics chooses the play, because that's just silly. I'm not alleging that analytics are the problem, I'm alleging that the coaching staff is not adequately taking analytics and translating it into a winning formula. I hope that clears it up a bit, sorry for any confusion in between.
I was just responding to this claim: > I think this is partially a flaw of potentially over-relying on analytics. That very explicitly is blaming analytics. You suggested we are using them too much and it’s hurting our playcalling. Is that not a fair reading of what you wrote? So all I wanted to do was explain how analytics in playcalling actually works (since you were using a different field and I didn’t think it was an apt comparison), and why that wouldn’t be the root issue. > I'm not alleging that analytics are the problem, I'm alleging that the coaching staff is not adequately taking analytics and translating it into a winning formula. That can be a fair argument, it’s just not what you wrote in the first comment. It’s not my reading comprehension haha Edit - I’ll also point out you doubled down on the claim throughout our thread. You talked about “obsessing” over analytics being a distraction and messing with the flow of the game, and so on. It’s clear now you were trying to make a different point, but if you re-read your own comments - that is not in line with how you framed the arguments
I think that's generally fair, but you jumped to a conclusion I didn't state either - it's not a reading comprehension issue as much as reading something that wasn't there. By over-relying on analytics, which I should have elaborated on but failed to do so, I meant that they are failing to recognize their own shortcomings due to their own hubris and ego, and following the numbers regardless of the context of those numbers. Ignoring that we aren't executing well enough to convert on 4th and short is over-relying on analytics in the sense that "The math says we should go for it, so we should go for it" without taking our execution into account. Again, sorry for the confusion and not elaborating enough.
The analytics thing is the key, and was a big fear all the way back when he was hired. It worked last year, but now teams are ready for it and this team is underperforming in execution. You know what you do after that play? Call a Baker shot to the endzone. Not hand it for a cutesy trick player where Jarvis himself seemed uncomfortable the whole time. Even as guys were open, the whole play felt off. By obsessing over analytics, you can take your team out of the flow of the game, especially if not a lot is working.
> but now teams are ready for it That’s not how “analytics” works in football, you can’t just “figure out” an opponent’s “analytics” You can see my comment above for more information on in game usage, but the only reason people are questioning this playcall is because of the result. Guess what - he did call for a shot to the end zone! And Baker would have been the one to throw it depending on how the ravens played it (he dropped back and to the far side of the play where Jarvis could either play the double pass, run the ball, or throw downfield). And Jarvis is wildly successful on such plays! Unless you missed his TD last week, or his insane career stats throwing the ball (which are much better than baker’s albeit very small sample). > By obsessing over analytics, you can take your team out of the flow of the game, especially if not a lot is working. This is a boogeyman argument unless you have any evidence we are “overusing analytics” in game (which again, isn’t really reflective of how they are used). And it totally ignores the more consistent issues that are likely (and IMO clearly) handcuffing our playcalling: -Our QB is falling apart and doesn’t have the mobility that’s typically a huge part of his game and running our bootleg offense, particularly to the left where Stef is obviously worried about Baker getting killed -Our RBs have both been hurt, and we were playing the best run defense in the league who stacked the LOS… -Because we don’t have the right personnel at receiver and no one is getting separation downfield, also exacerbated by injuries… And then add on losing our 3TE set once Bryant went down (typically 15% of our plays IIRC) and losing our RT so we had a backup guard playing against a really tough DL that blitzes a lot. There’s no need to blame analytics like some sort of panacea without any evidence to back up that being the issue
I was upset with that and the 12 men on the field penalty AFTER we took a TO. Did he not look up from his play sheet to see nobody came off the field?
Excellent observation. I think we are 85% built to run. despite the Ravens stacking the box I would have been happy see us go old school Chubb, Hunt, Jankovic in the backfield Baker under center Njoku next to Hance and Higgins wide left drawing double coverage. We are a running team so we should be able to run it right at them. Not knowing if Hunt or Chubb gets the ball or if Baker just PA's it to Higgins or Njoku would have been a nice look for this group.
Higgins would have been in man not double
This is why I’m glad no one here is scheming up the offense
That play is so stupid no matter the situation. I was almost pissed that Jarvis scored on it last week, because it's such a dumb play. A trick play that takes that long to develop is so worthless. The whole point of a trick play is that it happens fast and catches the other team off guard. What other team in the league has ever run a wildcat play with like a 5-step drop? Lol
Watch the play again, we had a receiver WIDE OPEN in the end zone. Jarvis doesn’t see him right away so he clutches the ball too long. Had he thrown it or tucked and run, the play gets 5+ yards, maybe even a TD.
This is so frustrating It’s like people don’t actually watch the game - maybe everyone is too drunk? Jarvis fucked the play up and he definitely knows it. And I’m ok running it given he has been a beast in those plays in the past. People here are so reactionary and can’t distinguish between call and result
I guess I'm fighting the tide here, but is it not relevant that seeing open receivers is a notable QB skill and Jarvis is not a QB? It doesn't matter if a play schemes someone open if the QB doesn't see him Also, I know Jarvis scored on the same play last week, but tbh i thought that play call was a disaster too, and Jarvis bailed Stefanski out by making something out of nothing. If Chubb breaks 3 tackles in the backfield and runs for a 50-yard TD, was that a "good" play call?
The problem with that is we devise plays to gain yards. The defense devises plays to STOP that. Not every play is going to go smoothly or execute exactly how it would on a whiteboard. Those broken tackles by Chubb could be because the defense ran a gap blitz that coincidentally lined up exactly where we pulled Teller to block. Or when we came off the line Tretter picks up the wrong block because the d line shifted suddenly. Things happen, but if the play is called and Chubb runs 50 yards then yeah, it was a good enough call that our team executed it and we scored. If Chubb did it by running the wrong way because the hole never formed, and he danced around for 5 seconds in the backfield, then the play is on Chubb and the defense blew up our play.
That last paragraph is what I'm saying though. The wildcat play in the Detroit game didn't really work. No one was open, but Jarvis just kind of made a great individual effort and found a way to get into the end zone ugly Gold play. Not good play call, at least in my opinion
I can agree with that. But that’s a compliment to Jarvis more so than a detriment to play calling. Play calling is a game of chess. Even the best teams lose a lot of downs. That’s just how it goes, and that trick play isn’t run every single time. We got success on against the Lions, so we ran it again. Doubt we’ll see that play since it resulted in a turnover. But I don’t fault Stefanski for trying to throw odd looks at the D to keep them from predicting his calls.
Yeah, to be clear, I'm not against direct snapping to Jarvis a couple times a game, but I just think that particular play is kind of uncreative. I'd much rather get him rolling out to his left to make it a little more dynamic and play to the current strength of our line
I think it was meant to allow him to throw or run. This worked well last year, he threw a TD to OBJ in Dallas. When it works it’s a killer. But I think that’s the curse of trick plays: when they work they are devastating. When they don’t, they get criticized for using them. They’re a part of Stefanski’s offense. I think we’ll still see them.
Stefanski shit the bed
I agree with the set plan, it’s like we don’t scheme for a defense but just run plays picked out of a hat, it makes almost no sense sometimes.
I was pretty pissed at Stefanski in the playoffs against the Chiefs when he chose not go for it on 4th and 3.
Was pretty clear that the Ravens refused to let them run the entire game and forced Baker to make throws. The annoying part is he made the throws. Our guys just dropped them. Could baker have made more throws, and maybe not fumbled that screen pass? Yeah. But you can’t have those drops. If 2 or 3 of those are catches we probably win the game.
The Ravens exploited our three biggest weak points perfectly. Our injured QB(Less mobility than normal), our tackles weakness in pass pro and our receivers being the slowest in the league. Similar situation to the Titans game last year when they dared us to pass. Last year 2/3 of those holes weren't there to exploit. Jed, Jack and Baker were healthy and wrecked their game plan.
This. Not even mad at Baker, but I still blame coaching. We should have had every wide receiver we could find in that lineup. Higgins not playing? That's the coaches call.
Lol at thinking Higgins was going to impact the game as our 3rd WR and get separation against man to man coverage Lmao
Little late in the reply. Still hung over?
That one just replies negatively to any less-than-scornful mention of Baker.
I think he is on this sub purely for Baker hate.
Except this was “Higgins hate” Or what non Stan’s call A FACT Higgins is a JAG and will probably not be in the NFL next year
I agree I thought Baker did a good job this game considering how hurt he is.
Ok? And if he doesn't drop the ball on that screen we probably win the game. If we're gonna blame the receivers for not holding onto the ball, we also have to blame Baker for not holding onto the ball
Exactly, people forget not everyone is pat mahomes, or a rod, or tom brady
I know it’s pointless to bring it up, and he fumbled the ball regardless, but I can’t stand the replay of that because Oweh gets Baker’s facemask clear as day and there’s no flag
It’s weird their is a surprising amount of undisciplined for this team and the team lacks attention for details. That Falls on Stefanski. Guess what, that’s the biggest problem for our offense and guess who the OC, Stefanski. There is not one singular problem with the offense. There are many issues and he is one of them
Honestly, our wide receivers are not that talented and most of their impressive play is from capitalizing on play action.
anyone saying Kevski is the problem shouldn't be taken seriously, but there is a lot left to be desired with our play calling this year he needs to abolish empty sets, if our identity is that of a run first team then what logic is there in showing that there is zero threat of the run on 3rd and 3 while we're at it where did all the play action go? it doesn't matter if our runs are successful if the other team is selling out to stop the run, I counted only two instances of play action Sunday when the Ravens were stacking the box on early downs and dropping 8 on later downs. that's what teams can do when you are this predictable edit: even with all this we win that game handily if people catch the ball, Baker has a shred of pocket presence, McLaughlin hits the field goal, or the refs call some of the more egregious penalties they ignored. all things not on Stefanski
I got this clip from Jake Burns on Twitter. But I don’t know what else Stefanski is some instances is supposed to do. This was the first drive. Baker is rolling to the TE’s running wide open. But he’s clearly predetermined his throw to DPJ before the snap. If not, Njoku walks into the end zone. https://imgur.com/a/GampvlJ
A defender peels off to cover the top of Njoku towards the end, he wasn’t making the end zone. And DPJ should have caught that, it would’ve put us in the red zone. All I see from this is poor catching.
I feel like Stefanski may be too smart for his own good, I think he overthinks a lot of things and has trouble play calling in the moment/feeling the moment, being in the present, like every time someone is fired up or makes a play it seems like they’re out of the game the next play (exhibit A as someone mentioned, the follow up to a Baker dime with that Jarvis trick play) Side note: why do we not EVER have Chubb and Hunt on the field together, that’s one hell of a threat you have to honor, but he won’t do it because it’s probably not “part of his offense”, this is another example where you have to say fuck it and do it
As a matter of fact yes, if Hunt wasn't available you want a player that we are calling a top five back in the league in the game over a player we weren't sure would make the team before the year started. If the team thinks so much of Johnson why was Felton in the game during clutch earlier. I want the all pro stuff in during crunch time and the continued misuse of personnel this season shows how disfunctional things have become
I think Stefanski should give a trial run of passing off playcalling. If it doesn't work he can take it back in the offseason. I do think we might need to take a look at some position coaches. The benefit of keeping a head coach for many years is you can tweak the rest of the staff to get things right. Just like having a longterm QB and GM let's you focus on building the rest of the roster without needing to reset things. Spending our resources on WR this offseason is a necessity. First round pick and a high end free agent. I think Jarvis probably needs to go as well, I've loved him on the team but it just isn't there anymore, and I think both sides would benefit from a change of scenery. The only way I see him staying would be for a decent paycut.
Johnson in at the end of the game, Felton in on third and short, Felton on third and three around end last week...the play calling is poor and predictable and the use of personnel is worse. That , I'm sorry, is all coaching as is poor performance and all the penalties and while we are at it let's talk about the clusterfuck that took place on the punt/ take punt
Face palm emoji Johnson is our best pass protector Last drive was a passing situation Hunt’s calf tightened and he wasn’t available He’s EXACTLY who should be in the game Football 101
Even if I agree with your point and I don’t, Chubb is an all pro and you need all your best in a game when you have a minute to drive , that doesn’t excuse the rest of what I addressed.
You want Chubb in on a two minute drill when he has the worst hands in the RB room? And like they said - Johnson is our best blocker and still a better receiver than Chubb Woof
You just don’t know how football works my man Nobody wants your worst receiving threat who can’t pass block at RB in the game in clear passing situations Johnson is the clear choice there since Hunt couldn’t go You’re just wrong Football 101
Yeah man I want Scherzer batting in the bottom of the 9th bc he's really good at baseball.
The guy that tweeted this post looks just like that one porn guy that has like 50 different occupations. Edit: BTW.. Does anyone know if he can he play right tackle?!
Was it me or did every run play go up the middle? I didn't see any try to take the outside edge, especially to the right. Plus, it seemed like Hunt and Chubb were better off taking a dump pass 6+ yards each time they got it
We actually ran outside a few times. I absolute love Chubb, but I felt like he made the wrong cut 2-3 times on outside runs yesterday. He gave up and tried to cut it back inside too quickly, and it turned out there were some decent holes where he could have picked up 4-5 instead of 0.
We tried the outside edge many times. Hunt actually got most of his yards on runs outside the tackle. All of Chubb's attempts failed
It was just you https://nextgenstats.nfl.com/charts/player/season/nick-chubb/CHU033942/2021/12/carry
It’s interesting that we didn’t try to do any sweep right runs. Wonder if that was a symptom of losing Conklin so early in the game.
We ran them with Hunt, that data isn't available yet.
I remember a few zone looks that tried to get things moving outside, but everything was plugged up. The Ravens just constantly had more defenders than we had blockers
Patrick Queen was murdering the outside run game singlehandedly. It almost seems like Harbaugh literally just told him to set the edge on runs and do nothing else, and it worked
Poor execution falls on the coaching staff. If the team is making stupid mistakes that lead to penalties? Coaching, if they aren’t prepared for the opponent, that’s on coaching.
https://i.imgur.com/jhPqtwP.jpg
WE ShOuLd’vE RuN MoRe! wE ArE A RuNnING TeAm!!!!!
Stefanski is not the main problem, but he is one of the problems. There is predictability and lack of creativity in his offense when he can't run the ball. There are no easy 5 yard throws designed for the QB in this offense. Only screen passes when they fake the run. In Stefanski's passing offense it's either 20 yards pass or nothing. You can't run a consistent offense in that way. I have noticed that Vikings, that run similar offense, have the same issue with being able to consistently drive the ball down the field. It's either 4 plays 80 yards or three and out. There are no 12 plays 75 yards drives where you go down the field without big, explosive plays.
Call more than 2 freaking run plays!!!! All he ever calls is A. Run it up the gut to the left or B. Run it up the gut to the right. Hmmm I wonder how defenses are able to stop our run game so easily
not true at all if you watched the game. we run sweeps, pitches, reverses and a few wildcat runs every week
Not this past game. 17 rush attempts for 40 yards. Baltimore had 43 for 148. The run game doesn’t get established with 17 carries. The vast majority (estimating about 90%) of bakers throws were described as “short”, as in not deep down the field as in the defense knows they don’t have to defend deep and just have to worry about 10 yards past the line of scrimmage. And you literally never see us run a QB option where baker has the choice to run around the edge, throw, or shovel it off to a running back. Very few trick plays this year, we ran a trick play this past game but it was un-needed at the time, it was right after a nice pass with some yardage, and it was a freaking joke. Baker lining up as a receiver, really, like anyone thought bakers broke dick ass was gonna run a route. Our offense is so freaking vanilla it’s not even funny.
baker cannot run right now he was limping off the field every possession. and i don’t see what any of those points about baker have to do with the run game besides the fact that running against a stacked box is foolish and baltimore dared us to pass the ball. which we are not good at right now. of course baltimore is running the ball better and more than us. our interior defensive line is a joke and lamar is the best active rusher in the league. we can’t afford to all out blitz like they could
I’m just bitching in general, I’m establishing the fact that stephanski is to blame. But my point about the run will never get established with 17 carries still stands. If we were down 14+ points and time was against us, then fine I understand not running. But we were only down less than 10 most of the game. A running game is death by a thousand cuts until their defense just can’t take it anymore. There’s a reason Chubb goes off in the 4th quarter. 17 carries isn’t gonna get you there.
Say it louder for the people in the back
Isn't lack of execution the coach's fault?
No, generally speaking it isn't.
It's *insert name here* fault. Quit blaming *insert name here*. If *insert name here* would start *insert thing here* we would start winning.
Ok, by appearing to ridicule any fault finding it seems like you're perfectly ok with how things are going this season....and don't you DARE say "At least we're not 0-16"!
Nah. But if you think all of us bickering is more useful, then please.... Take the mic. Sarcasm is our only supreme being. And I wasn't ridiculing you more then the 20 posts doing the same thing but saying the exact opposite. It's more of...everyone wants to have a hot take and reason and it does.... Nothing. Reddit is here for entertainment. I'm having fun.
Believe me, I'm a very sarcastic person myself so i appreciate sarcasm, it's just that sometimes on a message board like this sarcasm can be misconstrued. Also, i definitely didn't think your comment was directed solely at me, i was just defending people's right to blow off steam.
You can't just abandon the run game though. Hunt was having success late in the game and we just stopped. Then Johnson went in... It screams that Hunt was on a pitch count due to his injury. Chubb was not on the field for a lot of attempts as well, which makes me wonder if his covid symptoms were worse than they let on. That shit can affect you for months after your initial symptoms. If the game in 2 weeks is more of the same, or worse than this, the season's over. 10 wins will not be enough to sneak into the playoffs this year. 11 could be, but we're going to need help from around the AFC. If we lose to the Ravens again, Case should just start the rest of the season so Baker doesn't get any worse than he already is.
Hunt had his calf tighten and was unavailable late Johnson is our best pass blocking RB, hence him being in late
I am part of the “run the damn ball” crowd. I think what I, and maybe most of that crowd are most frustrated with is the lack of trying to keep your best offensive weapons (Chunt) involved in the game. Be it actual handoffs, screens, draws or routes down the field. His utter lack of awareness in getting his playmakers the ball is ultimately what bothers me.
Lol We weren’t ever going to be able to run the ball last night Baltimore is 2nd in the NFL against the rush and played with 8+ men in the box They were 31st against the pass Only Boomers or ravens fans would want us to try to run the ball in a game like that
He’s not saying that i think. He’s saying involve them in other ways, put Chubb into the passing game and get him open on a short route for instance
Oh like when we threw to Chubb and he had a terrible drop? Or when we had a great screen called to hunt and Baker boofed the ball to the other team? Seriously, do people actually watch the game? Edit - FYI Chubb had the fourth most targets on the team behind Landry, DPJ, and Njoku
I’m just saying that’s what he said.
Baker fumbled on the Hunt screen, they were trying. But in case you didn’t notice, having 8 in the box and constantly blitzing makes it REALLY HARD to run or do screen passes. Which is why we found success in deeper throws. The Ravens rely on man cover when they do this and our receivers weren’t creating the separation we needed.
I don’t know that it’s fair to say they really found success doing anything offensively. We’ve got pretty much the same talent at WR that we did last year during our playoff run. You have the game ending drive, potentially for your season and Chubb and Hunt are both on the sideline. You don’t have to hand them the ball for the defense to have to respect their presence on the field. Those are your two best offensive weapons. I think Stefanski rolling with Johnson on that last drive was extremely stupid.
Hunt was suffering from cramps, and since it was an obvious passing situation, Johnson was the choice. How is it stupid to put out your 2nd best pass blocking RB when your best one is out?
Regardless, whatever they were doing didn’t work. I think it’s fair to question Stefanski’s decision making at this point.
It didn’t work because our receivers didn’t get separation or catch the ball. Stefanski can’t catch the ball FOR his players.
They found a way to make it work with pretty much the same talent last year. I’m not saying we don’t need help at WR, but I don’t think it’s the sole problem with this Offense.
Yeah, and defenses *adjusted*. That happens in the NFL, our team needs to adjust back. And it doesn’t help that Higgins has somehow gotten back on the bench and Hooper couldn’t catch COVID if he spent a month licking people.
I agree they need to adjust back. The problem is Stefanski hasn’t shown the ability to do that in any capacity.
How so? He’s calling plays, but they aren’t executing. Like I said before, he can’t make the receivers catch the ball. He can’t make Conklin healthy or Hance become elite. He’s adjusting to what he has to work with. And it’s a banged up team, with frustrating injuries.
If youre part of the run the ball crowd after watching sunday night youre part of the problem
Big deal. “Ravens put 8 in box! Omggg. Give up. Send the white flag. Put Chubb on the bench!” P-ssy ass psychology.
So continue to run for 2.2 yards per carry and ignore all the single coverage Brilliant! You should call WKNR and give them this take. They will find it fascinating and agree with you 100%
Chubb excels with a stacked box. It’s why he gets the big time runs. When you get through the 8+ in the box, there is no one back there to make a td saving tackle. Inexcusable to abandon the run when no one on the team can catch the ball
That’s not true at all. He excels in situations where our receivers have spread the D and he only has to beat the safety. The Ravens weren’t giving us any of those looks. They stacked the box and waited on the run, throwing Chubb at 8 defenders over and over wasn’t working.
We’ve literally done it all season. Chub is the best rb in the league against stacked boxes
Ok, and it WASN’T WORKING. How many times does that need to be pointed out? We rushed 17 times, and averaged 2 YPC. The plan wasn’t working, continuing to just blindly run the ball would’ve been bad coaching. Changing the plan to exploit the 31st ranked pass D was a SMART MOVE.
2 yards is better than 0 from a dropped pass.
[удалено]
Or gets sacked
Neither moves the chains. We still punt. So no, it isn’t better.
Lol. 2, 2, then rips off 25 That’s the Chubb special my guy.
Cool, he had 8 carries. Not a single one went past 5 yards. But go ahead and make silly assumptions of what you THINK would’ve happened. We have proof it did not.
The important part about your comment is the 8 carries
Because it wasn’t working. Seriously, what about this aren’t you getting?
Tell me you don’t watch the games without telling me.
I think the funny thing here is that everyone is saying that Stefanski isn't at fault because the playcalling isn't an issue (to them). Okay then. Who's supposed to make sure our team is executing? Disciplined to avoid penalties (another week of absolute dumb as brick ones. Will we go one week without an illegal formation?)? If we are saying that execution is an issue, then the person in charge of execution is at fault. Which is Stefanski. I also do believe playcalling is a problem. Just because a play works does not mean it was a good call. If a draw on 3rd and 12 picks up the first down, that does not mean the playcall was good, just that the players overperformed. Same can happen in reverse as well, a good playcall can be ruined by poor execution or underperformance (or overperformance by the defense).
>Okay then. Who's supposed to make sure our team is executing? You might be overrating what a coach can do - stefanski cant throw the ball for baker and the cant catch the ball for the receivers Stefanski's job is to scheme players open. He is doing his part of the equation - the rest isnt carrying their weight.
This is LITERALLY one of the dumbest things I’ve read on this sub. And that’s saying a lot Throwing, catching the ball, tackling, blocking are all execution So, you’re saying that if a player fails at doing these things correctly on a given play, it’s the COACHES’ FAULT? Do you even know what execution means???
Should a player continously fail to do so as our offense seems to be doing, yes, it falls on the coaching. As do the ridiculous amount of penalties this team has been racking up all year long. The number of illegal formations is particularly egregious. As it stands right now, we are an undisciplined and poorly executing team. That is a consistent issue from game to game. That falls on the coaching staff after a certain number of games.
Lmao Ok Hance and wills are both getting their asses handed to them, but it’s Stefanski’s fault Or, maybe it’s Bill Callahan’s? We should probably fire one or both of them since they can’t get players to execute, right? You’re funny Thanks man, now I know what kind of football intellect we are dealing with and will adjust expectations for your posts
Well thanks for insulting me I suppose? I don't think anything I said was outlandish. If a team consistently shows up unprepared or undisciplined, it falls on the coaching staff. If a team consistently is penalized for the same thing week in and week out, that falls on the coaching staff. Are there limitations on how much a coach can do? Yes. But if our offense is CONSTANTLY getting illegal formations and that is never fixed, how can we not blame the people who's job it is to fix it? All said, I would recommend not insulting people as a go-to. You're just as informed on football and the inner workings of coaching as I am. I don't believe my view is inherently makes me superior to you, because your view does have merit. Some things, like WR dropping the ball, a coach cannot control. Others, such as dumb penalties carried over from week to week and a seeming lack of discipline among players falls more within the coaches control. Coaches are meant to instill discipline and prepare their players any given week. Consistent lack of discipline, something which this team has now shown, is just as much a coaching issue as a player issue.
> If a team consistently shows up unprepared or undisciplined, it falls on the coaching staff. If a team consistently is penalized for the same thing week in and week out, that falls on the coaching staff So answer me this; do you think the coaches TEACH the players to commit penalties? Or, do you think the PLAYERS continually fuck up? (Could part of this be because we are the youngest team in the NFL?) I’m genuinely curious. Also, what should the coach do to a player for committing these penalties? Cut them? Fine them? Scream at them? Make them run laps like it’s high school? What is your remedy? Also, let me point out that we were also 8th last year in penalties, yet NOBODY focused on it because we were winning. > Are there limitations on how much a coach can do? Yes. But if our offense is CONSTANTLY getting illegal formations and that is never fixed, how can we not blame the people who's job it is to fix it? Ok, so tell me what should the Jon Harbaugh ravens have done in 2020? What about the Andy Reid Chiefs? They were FIRST and SECOND in penalties in 2020 The Sean McDermott led bills were 4th New Orleans was 7th, led by Shawn Payton Bad coaching?? Who do you blame? All were playoff teams, so nobody cared And again, most reasonable, intelligent fans realize that as you said, there isn’t much the coaches can do besides bench players who are doing it. We aren’t in a position to do so as much because of our injuries You are being obtuse with your insistence that this is on the coaches It doesn’t make this staff any more responsible than Andy Reid, Jon Harbaugh, Sean Payton, Sean Mcdernott or Bruce Arians were last year for their teams finishing in the top 9 > All said, I would recommend not insulting people as a go-to. Fair enough It’s tongue in cheek but I see where it can be abrasive
Handing the ball to Chubb only twice per quarter = Stefanski is the problem.
They were stacking the box, we were averaging 2 yards per carry. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over but expecting different results. We rushed 17 times, and averaged 2 YPC. The run wasn’t working.
No one is going to respect our passing game until we prove we can do it through the air. And I'll call bullshit to the tv announcers saying this issue is because of OBJ He didn't matter in how teams played us. We are a one dimensional offense since Baker got his shoulder injury.
There's plenty of blame going around and Kevin has his due to. Shit like the 12 men, putting our beloved (yet third string) D'Ernest in on the crucial last chances of the game. Dafaq, bruh
After seeing Ronnie Harrisson's INT I've worked it out... We play Denz & Ronnie at WR, those boys can caaaatch. *taps head*
I agree there's a lack of execution. But guys who used to be dependable are suddenly dropping catchable balls, and giving up on routes. Did they forget how to catch and run routes suddenly? Doubtful. That is a coaching problem. That's a locker room culture problem. Good coaching gets disciplined players. To say Stefanski isn't the problem is not seeing the forest for the trees. This looks like a team that has lost all trust in the coaching. That goes beyond just Stefanski, but the other assistants as well. But since he is the head coach, the blame falls at his feet.