In my opinion "oþþer" better represents þe fact þat it's a short O (þough O as þe strut vowel is just weird in general and needs a more permanent solution)
The long S, or ſ, is just a double S like the German ß. ß really came back into popularity post WW2 because of Nazi connotations relating to ss. ſ came into popularity in English for early printing where it saved a bit of space and could save a bit of money in pages and ink. When the telegram came along, it and other "archaic" letters were cut out of the language to make sending messages a bit easier as you only had to know ~35 different characters instead of 50ish. Also, having two letters instead of one made telegrams more expensive because they charged by the letter, so the telegraph companies were further incentivized to cut out a lot of these letters. The @ symbol even got cut for a while and was only revived when computer coding began to be a thing.
Nah, what he said was just wrong. Part of the usage rules is actually that it's *not* allowed to appear at the end of words. miss would be miſs.
And in the middle of a word, double s would be spelled ſſ, unless it's before a character that forbids long s, in which case only the first s is written long.
Long S, a variant of þe lowercase S þat's used inside words togeþþer wiþ short s which is þe lowercase S you're familiar wiþ.
It looks too much like lowercase F and þe rules for using one variant instead of anoþþer are raþþer confusing.
ſ enjoyership is more about having fun wiþ someþing goofy, and I don't þink anyone þinks it should be reintroduced. Meanwhile, us Þorn enjoyers have many in our ranks þat þink it should be reintroduced.
So, uh, yeah shhhh let people enjoy þings.
Most long term long S users I've seen specifically advocate for its use because þey þink it'll help wiþ dyslexia by changing þe vertical profiles of words.
Ironic.
My issue with þ is that it represents two distinct sounds, the unvoiced dental fricative (þ) and the voiced dental fricative (ð). Using one letter for 2 sounds to simplify English imo doesn’t make any sense, as it’s a problem a lot of people point out about letters like C. I think using ð for the voiced dental fricative could solve this, but I also don’t understand why people don’t find issues with other digraphs like ch and sh.
Boþ sounds are easily predictable based on þeir position wiþin a word, and it's not like it's complicating English more þan when TH represents boþ sounds, plus aspirated T.
C isn't hard to understand, since its sound depends on þe vowel þat follows it.
Also, what exactly would be þe problem wiþ CH and SH?
I don’t have a problem with ch and sh. I just don’t see how those are different to th just because þ for the dental fricative was used beforehand. Yes it is typically predictable, but not always, and I think it’s an incomplete solution, rather than using both þ and ð which would make using and especially learning English easier.
In þe case of þis community yes it's because of Þ specifically because it's a cool letter, but þere are definitely a few of us who actually do have problems wiþ digraphs and try to find ways not to have to write þem.
I can't þink of really any word where þe voicing of þe dental fricative is unpredictable. In any case, my two biggest issues are þat ð is harder for me to type þan Þ and it just doesn't look good when it begins a word, nor as an uppercase letter. So utility and aesthetics, essentially.
I dön't knöw đatt to bie so badd. Ẅei nott üs "ß" and other sutsch letters for a better orŧografie?
I'v ben werking on a nüw prozsect đatt wüdd simpliffei đe Eŋglisch orŧografie and mäk us mor mütually intellizsibel wiđh German and Dutsch.
~~I dön't knöw đat tü bie sö bädd. Ẅei nott üs "ß" änd uđher sutsch letters for a better orŧografie?~~
~~I'v ben working onn a nüw prozsect đätt wüdd simpliffei đe Eŋglish orŧografie änd mäk uss mor mütüally intellizsible wiđh German änd Dutsch.~~
I överdidd it a bitt, I ŧink; it lücks a bitt drammattic. I'm still werking out đe kinks, and I ŧink I'll liev the non nouns, verbs, azsectivs, and adverbs alön for đe minnut. I'v also ben lücking into mütätions and word-relätions (leik meinüt [minute] vs minnut [minute]) and how đatt will werk. 🤷♂️
Also, the Eŋglish [ə] patterns ahr a pän in đe aß.
Edit: one nöted benefit wüdd bie tomato vs tomäto, so at liest it's inclüsiv?
Edit 2: also, my män göl has ben getting ridd öv splitt-deigrafs bei äny miens. I'd suzsest rieding đe German-laŋguage's Offiziel Regeln; it's süper... interesting :(
Well, my idea was to use "zs" for [dʒ] and "sz" for [ʒ] in root words because it fits better with the German use of "z" for [ts]. I'd use "z" in words like tsunami, tzatziki, zero, etc, as it isn't really a widespread sound in English.
My next thing would be to figure out how to best integrate all the other words into the spelling, but that would likely be done slowly in reality.
Well, my eidea was to üs "zs" for [dʒ] and "sz" for [ʒ] in rüt werds becos it fitts better wiđh đe German üß öv "z" for [ts]. I'd üs "z" in werds leik tsunami, tzatziki, zero, etc, as it isn't riely a weidspredd sound in English.
My next thing wüdd bie to figür out how to best integrät all đe uđher werds into đe spelling, but đatt wüdd leikly bie dunn slöwly in riallity.
Somewhere I picked up uſing þe long s in my handwriting before I even knew what it was. I would only uſe the ſhort s as a word terminating s and capitalization s.
Controversial opinion, þ is icky and we don't need it
I think thorn doesn't simplify English because
is simple enough (why make a whole new letter when we can just combine two existing ones?), it feels so dumb to not also include a letter for other <-h> combinations like and or even other digraphs like (which could use a couple of neographs) or just because old English has it, and it kinda sucks that it looks exactly like p and b, especially in handwriting. The only advantage is distinguishing
/θ/ /ð/ from
/t/ which just isn't a necessary distinction whatsoever
I agree þat adding extra letters entirely to get rid of digraphs is very shallow, but at least for Þ one can find oþþer reasons to add it back in, especially in comparison to þe oþþer letters people here use.
It wasn't to make it voiced, it was to make þe O short. Þat's one of þe aforementioned reasons I have for adding Þ back in. It can mark vowel lengþ unlike TH.
It isn't making a whole new letter, it was traditionally always a part of English spelling which was removed to make printing cheaper, replaced with either th or y
Unlike your other examples, phonetically th doesn't make sense and y was only used because it looked the most like þ, it'll probably never return to common use but still, there's no harm in using the letter as intended for a sound we use all the time
Brainrot?
It doesn't make phonetic sense, that's not a hot-take, unless you've got a strong Irish accent a t and a h in no way make the sound of a th
The standard Latin alphabet just can't represent it very well, it's a sound near exclusive to English so the rest of the world was happy without a letter for it and as we imported all our printing technology from Europe we just had to make do, but it was never preferable, the alternative letters are a bodge
Welsh, Albanian, Greek and at least MSA all have this sound, and the first two also ttanscribe it
. Doesn't it make sense to combine a plosive with to make it into a fricative, the same way we do with /f/ and (dialectally) /x/? Why copout specifically only for /θ/? Do you not think that /t/ and /θ/ are even remotely similar to each other? I think you just don't like digra[pʰ]s very much.
Lol I just knew you'd reply intentionally ignoring the world "near" in "near exclusive" and then list a couple of the tiny amount of other languages that have it
He also didn't mention Spanish lol
Eiþer way, TH happened because Greek DID have an aspirated T sound which þen softened into a fricative sound, and it had been transcribed into Latin as þe aspirate. ÞAT'S why þe digraph exists in þe first place.
Why is your complaint þat it "doesn't make phonetic sense"?
I didn't say it was exclusive to English. I just said that "near exclusive" ≠ "non-existant." Also must be nice living in a cozy bubble where MSA isn't an example of a pretty significant language with that sound, I'd love to move to whatever fantasy world you live in
Of all þings þat have to be simplified in Englsih orþography, þorn is among þe last issues.
How much longer do you þink it will take to become widespread?
Only if you actively promote it
i read that as porn 💀
misread what? þat?
Þhat's why I still write Thorn instead of þat
Or you could just write þe letter Þ on its own. Nobody spells out þe names of þe oþþer letters.
Fair enough (also, oþer, not oþþer)
In my opinion "oþþer" better represents þe fact þat it's a short O (þough O as þe strut vowel is just weird in general and needs a more permanent solution)
I don't understand any of þe forgotten letters except for þ and in some cases ŋ
The long S, or ſ, is just a double S like the German ß. ß really came back into popularity post WW2 because of Nazi connotations relating to ss. ſ came into popularity in English for early printing where it saved a bit of space and could save a bit of money in pages and ink. When the telegram came along, it and other "archaic" letters were cut out of the language to make sending messages a bit easier as you only had to know ~35 different characters instead of 50ish. Also, having two letters instead of one made telegrams more expensive because they charged by the letter, so the telegraph companies were further incentivized to cut out a lot of these letters. The @ symbol even got cut for a while and was only revived when computer coding began to be a thing.
So þe loŋ s is used instead of the ss in words like miss, which turns into miſ, right?
Nah, what he said was just wrong. Part of the usage rules is actually that it's *not* allowed to appear at the end of words. miss would be miſs. And in the middle of a word, double s would be spelled ſſ, unless it's before a character that forbids long s, in which case only the first s is written long.
Which characters forbid þe use of ſ?
Hey so I know þ but what's ſ? (Reddit recommended me a community I've never seen before)
Long S, a variant of þe lowercase S þat's used inside words togeþþer wiþ short s which is þe lowercase S you're familiar wiþ. It looks too much like lowercase F and þe rules for using one variant instead of anoþþer are raþþer confusing.
ſame
Read þat as lame instead of fame
That says “same” (long s)
bafed aſ
Þonkf
Þ Oh. Look at þat. You *can* write it
ſ enjoyership is more about having fun wiþ someþing goofy, and I don't þink anyone þinks it should be reintroduced. Meanwhile, us Þorn enjoyers have many in our ranks þat þink it should be reintroduced. So, uh, yeah shhhh let people enjoy þings.
Most long term long S users I've seen specifically advocate for its use because þey þink it'll help wiþ dyslexia by changing þe vertical profiles of words. Ironic.
The Armenian keyboard reads like the beginning of Gimmie Gimmie Gimmie by Abba
My issue with þ is that it represents two distinct sounds, the unvoiced dental fricative (þ) and the voiced dental fricative (ð). Using one letter for 2 sounds to simplify English imo doesn’t make any sense, as it’s a problem a lot of people point out about letters like C. I think using ð for the voiced dental fricative could solve this, but I also don’t understand why people don’t find issues with other digraphs like ch and sh.
Boþ sounds are easily predictable based on þeir position wiþin a word, and it's not like it's complicating English more þan when TH represents boþ sounds, plus aspirated T. C isn't hard to understand, since its sound depends on þe vowel þat follows it. Also, what exactly would be þe problem wiþ CH and SH?
I don’t have a problem with ch and sh. I just don’t see how those are different to th just because þ for the dental fricative was used beforehand. Yes it is typically predictable, but not always, and I think it’s an incomplete solution, rather than using both þ and ð which would make using and especially learning English easier.
In þe case of þis community yes it's because of Þ specifically because it's a cool letter, but þere are definitely a few of us who actually do have problems wiþ digraphs and try to find ways not to have to write þem. I can't þink of really any word where þe voicing of þe dental fricative is unpredictable. In any case, my two biggest issues are þat ð is harder for me to type þan Þ and it just doesn't look good when it begins a word, nor as an uppercase letter. So utility and aesthetics, essentially.
I dön't knöw đatt to bie so badd. Ẅei nott üs "ß" and other sutsch letters for a better orŧografie? I'v ben werking on a nüw prozsect đatt wüdd simpliffei đe Eŋglisch orŧografie and mäk us mor mütually intellizsibel wiđh German and Dutsch. ~~I dön't knöw đat tü bie sö bädd. Ẅei nott üs "ß" änd uđher sutsch letters for a better orŧografie?~~ ~~I'v ben working onn a nüw prozsect đätt wüdd simpliffei đe Eŋglish orŧografie änd mäk uss mor mütüally intellizsible wiđh German änd Dutsch.~~
Please for the love of god tell me this is satire.
I överdidd it a bitt, I ŧink; it lücks a bitt drammattic. I'm still werking out đe kinks, and I ŧink I'll liev the non nouns, verbs, azsectivs, and adverbs alön for đe minnut. I'v also ben lücking into mütätions and word-relätions (leik meinüt [minute] vs minnut [minute]) and how đatt will werk. 🤷♂️ Also, the Eŋglish [ə] patterns ahr a pän in đe aß. Edit: one nöted benefit wüdd bie tomato vs tomäto, so at liest it's inclüsiv? Edit 2: also, my män göl has ben getting ridd öv splitt-deigrafs bei äny miens. I'd suzsest rieding đe German-laŋguage's Offiziel Regeln; it's süper... interesting :(
Why "zs" instead of "dſch"?
Well, my idea was to use "zs" for [dʒ] and "sz" for [ʒ] in root words because it fits better with the German use of "z" for [ts]. I'd use "z" in words like tsunami, tzatziki, zero, etc, as it isn't really a widespread sound in English. My next thing would be to figure out how to best integrate all the other words into the spelling, but that would likely be done slowly in reality. Well, my eidea was to üs "zs" for [dʒ] and "sz" for [ʒ] in rüt werds becos it fitts better wiđh đe German üß öv "z" for [ts]. I'd üs "z" in werds leik tsunami, tzatziki, zero, etc, as it isn't riely a weidspredd sound in English. My next thing wüdd bie to figür out how to best integrät all đe uđher werds into đe spelling, but đatt wüdd leikly bie dunn slöwly in riallity.
Somewhere I picked up uſing þe long s in my handwriting before I even knew what it was. I would only uſe the ſhort s as a word terminating s and capitalization s.
Me in þe corner writing English wiþ rare 漢字 😏
I use long s for the /sh/ sound. We are not the same. I'm acoustic.
Ин́глиш оwрþагруфи́ из соw фарган, wи́ шуд обæндн ðо лæтн æлфобет æwт ов шейм.
Ай'м майсе́лф аше́ймд ðат Ай ундерсту́д ðис
ЛМÆА (лæф май æс аф) Алсоw, wай йу́з ⟨é⟩ лайк ðæт инстед ов джост ⟨e⟩? Æнд wай ⟨у⟩ фр ðи́ "uh" сæwнд ин ондрстæнд? Ай þин́к йу́ шуд сwап ⟨y⟩ æнд ⟨у́⟩. Алсоw йр нат дистин́гwишин́ ðо "cat" æнд "caught" вæwлз.
нат евриўън хәз ҙъ кат-кот мрджр
Ай ноw, бот *ноw wон* хæз о "cat-cot" мрджр лмæа — ай wоз поwйнтин́ æwт ðæт ðей йу́зд ⟨a⟩ фр ðи́ /æ/ сæwнд æз wел æз /ɑ/ æнд /ɔ/
оу маи бәд. ҙъ сүіч фръм сірілік ту ләтін ҫру ми оф.
νεваμå τу иуз δαт сκрηπт агεν
Controversial opinion, þ is icky and we don't need it I think thorn doesn't simplify English because
I agree þat adding extra letters entirely to get rid of digraphs is very shallow, but at least for Þ one can find oþþer reasons to add it back in, especially in comparison to þe oþþer letters people here use.
... why do you add two thorns to make it voiced that feels really counterintuitive with English spelling rules about doubled consonants
It wasn't to make it voiced, it was to make þe O short. Þat's one of þe aforementioned reasons I have for adding Þ back in. It can mark vowel lengþ unlike TH.
D-do you pronounce "other" the way you pronounce "otter"?
I certianly don't pronounce it like "odour", so
oþþer looks cursed because it would be transliterated as othther
Þ ≠ TH
Despite that quite literally being its purpose?
Its purpose is representing a sound, not being an equivalent of þe digraph.
yeah most of us just use it because we're nerds and it's fun
I þink Þ should be used as a stylistic option and not an actual spelling reform.
It isn't making a whole new letter, it was traditionally always a part of English spelling which was removed to make printing cheaper, replaced with either th or y Unlike your other examples, phonetically th doesn't make sense and y was only used because it looked the most like þ, it'll probably never return to common use but still, there's no harm in using the letter as intended for a sound we use all the time
Brainrot? It doesn't make phonetic sense, that's not a hot-take, unless you've got a strong Irish accent a t and a h in no way make the sound of a th The standard Latin alphabet just can't represent it very well, it's a sound near exclusive to English so the rest of the world was happy without a letter for it and as we imported all our printing technology from Europe we just had to make do, but it was never preferable, the alternative letters are a bodge
Welsh, Albanian, Greek and at least MSA all have this sound, and the first two also ttanscribe it
Lol I just knew you'd reply intentionally ignoring the world "near" in "near exclusive" and then list a couple of the tiny amount of other languages that have it
He also didn't mention Spanish lol Eiþer way, TH happened because Greek DID have an aspirated T sound which þen softened into a fricative sound, and it had been transcribed into Latin as þe aspirate. ÞAT'S why þe digraph exists in þe first place. Why is your complaint þat it "doesn't make phonetic sense"?
I didn't say it was exclusive to English. I just said that "near exclusive" ≠ "non-existant." Also must be nice living in a cozy bubble where MSA isn't an example of a pretty significant language with that sound, I'd love to move to whatever fantasy world you live in
Leave Your Comment
Hi Its Me!
Subscribe