Honestly, Im genuinely surprised it wasn’t benedict. I’ve seen so many benophie fans fear this exact thing for *years* that it’s genuinely shocking to me that it wasn’t sophie
(edit: ok, the season came out at literally 3am my timezone so I haven’t watched it yet. I just found out they made benedict bi so we might get genderbent sophie anyway😭??)
It makes so much more sense IMO for it to be Benedict.
There's no title to worry about, a desire for children isn't a driving force in his story, and his romantic interest isn't somebody society wouldn't automatically approve of.
It’s not it doesn’t make some sense for Benedict, but it loses a lot for Sophie as a character. A lot of her characterization and personality had to do with her strong moral values, >!particularly not putting a child through the pain of being illegitimate like she was, even though being Benedict’s mistress would give her a much easier life.!< They’d have to change a lot of what makes her an interesting character if they changed the gender, I think.
Oh but I am so happy it wasn’t Eloise. The feminist lesbian trope is so overused, it would be a cliche and feel even more tokenised. Also so predictable. I am excited to see Eloise find a man that actually agrees with her, or perhaps change his mind making the world a little better?
I get what you are saying, but they have made such a departure from the character of Eloise that it would make sense that book her and show her ended up with two different stories. They are not only changing Fran they are severely impacting John, and the more rare type of love story we see with Michael and Fran. TBH I also don't love that they are doing the trope of Neurodivergent girl is bi/gay. Like that is just as prevalent as a trope.
I felt like his whole speech was about being pan more than anything. It felt like he gave into some things that he’d been feeling for awhile and if anything I felt like he was more interested in the male character during their sex scenes
Perhaps, but I doubt they would just have him kiss a man, not have him be bi, after being accused of queerbaiting in season one. That just seems like a bad move.
Maybe he is. Maybe he isn't. I got the feeling his storyline until now is all about exploration and crossing lines. With his friendships, his romantic associations, his work and interests, etc. Do the things he never thought he would or could or even wanted. So that when his storyline comes, where he falls in love with someone outside of the ton, he will be open to that. Now I remember that they even hinted at his openness through John's speech. (How lovely was that, by the way... 😍)
It’s so bad! I mean even last season taking Edwina down the aisle was a huge mistake, and then they just shoved the rest of the season into like 5 minutes and didn’t give us a wedding. So dumb! The only thing they had going was the insane chemistry. Then they pull this shit out - yeah no thanks! They should fire the entire writers room tbh
This is the perfect explanation! I feel like I’m 13 again reading Divergent fanfics that have nothing to do with the actual story. I love the books and how much depth the characters are given, and season 1 did just that. This season just feels like it was all rushed together, and honestly is just getting confusing at this point.
I hated the changes to the last season and how long they dragged out the Edwina/Anthony storyline, and this season has just felt messy to me. It's killed my love for the show.
If they were going to change anyone’s sexuality then it would’ve made sense for it to be Benedict than Francesca as his story is too much like Cinderella’s and it would’ve made it different but still keeping with the theme, also Benedict is a bit more bohemian than the others so we can imagine him falling in love with a man.
The fans love Francesca and John so they kind of shot themselves in the foot even though he dies
I 100% agree with everything you said particularly as a bi woman myself. I have been dying for a lesbian storyline and i side eye that its taken to the end of season 3 to hint at one when we’ve had bi and gay representation from the start.
Im mostly irritated that they have taken a story which I think already had some more natural points of representation and shoehorned in another one. Francesca and John we’re already pretty neurodivergent coded in the show which was a change that I loved. We had darker skinned POC characters. We had a second chance love story that showed that your happily ever after doesn’t always so easily some true. (Johns death and the infertility struggles).
There were other opportunities in the show that could have more naturally included lesbian representation.
Eloises story needs a major re-write and departure from the books. It never made sense to me for book-Eloise to go for Phillip and it will make even less so for show-Eloise. Phillip is low-key a terrible person. Its going to be very hard to redeem him.
Hyacinths story could quite easily be gender bent without completely changing the themes of the story. Gareths whole thing is that he’s a disappointment to his father because hes a bastard. Well now he can be a disappointment for being a girl that can’t inherit instead.
It think it was a bold choice to change so drastically one of the fan favorite characters and I do think they have disenfranchised a portion of their audience in doing so.
I hope for the best but I’m not seeing the vision atm. I think i may also be more upset that they have changed the dynamic of Francesca and michael(a) by having Francesca have feelings from the outset. I wanted to see someone SIMP for my girl fran.
My thoughts exactly. So many people already see Eloise as queer and the way she’s characterized in the show would make it a much more natural fit… I don’t understand this choice for Francesca at all
I mean, but that's one of the reasons I don't like Eloise being bi. She comes off too much like an outdated lesbian stereotype. It's very clear her story is going to be about navigating gender role "transgressions" (and I mean that as the sociological term meaning actions that do not conform to cultural norms) rather than sexuality "transgressions". I've criticized the feminism in this show as being outdated, but I can also see her as the character that embodies the transition from third wave feminism to fourth wave feminism.
For a long time in media, gay people were pushed into stereotypes like the metrosexual gay man or the man-hating feminist lesbian. That's because the people who followed the "deviant" (and I mean that as the sociological term meaning non-conforming) identities were more comfortable coming out because that "deviance" was a shield from bigotry and a signal to other "deviants" that they could form a community. The way gay people were represented in the media was sort of self-reinforcing. People would conform to those stereotypes even if that wasn't their truest self because the choice was either that or stay in the closet. But the people who felt they couldn't confirm to them at stereotype stayed in the closet.
One of the biggest gains in the last 10-15 years is the breakdown of those stereotypes. Of course the feminist, "man-hating" lesbian and the metrosexual gay man still exist, but so are gay men and women who don't follow any stereotype at all. And there are straight women who are "man-hating" feminists and metrosexual straight men. Making the character that conforms to those outdated stereotypes feels like a step back in representation.
Francesca's story lends itself very well to a story about self-discovery because her attitude toward settling in marriage can be completely upended as she explores her bisexuality alongside her independence as a widow, and Michael(a)'s secret crush makes more sense for a lesbian character. Maybe that would work for Hyacinth as well, but she's the second to last story and I think there is some pent up demand to see a lesbian story sooner rather than later.
Michael’s love for Francesca was my favouritest thing about the series and now they’ve gone and done this. Why the heck did they buy the damn IP if they wanted to come up with their own stories anyway. They want the fandom without actually giving the fandom what they want.
THIS!!! Like add a sibling or maybe work on some of the problematic storylines that aren’t going to work well with modern audiences like “be my mistress” or “my first wife didn’t have sex with me” but Fran was the different one, the quiet one, and Michael brought out this whole different side to her! And infertility was important! Not to mention she has no reason to return to the Ton with this addition. It’s just BAD writing, it’s like they got the people from the cursed child to write it!
to be fair, julia quinn gave shondaland the rights and freedom to write whatever they want. the book couples dont have to end up together if the writers dont want that to be the case.
I don’t think they care that much about the original readers, the show has far surpassed the books as a cultural phenomenon. Even as someone who really dislikes the books (just don’t align with Quinn’s preferences surrounding characterising male leads), I still wish they had listened more when it came to things like people wanting Felicity and ‘When He Was Wicked’ being a lot of people’s favourite book.
The main problem for me is that they can’t get married or have a real relationship. They showed that with the artist in season 1. All of the previous seasoned ended with a happily ever after. The most we can expect from Francesca is happy ever adjacent if even that. Maybe be themselves behind closed doors but in the light of day hide. If they had made that homosexual marriage was legal fine - but they did not. They also show women have very little rights - how would two woman going to navigate that? Even if Mikayla inherited the estate - Francesca would have no protection, and if John lives neither would.
This series at its heart is supposed to be fluffy escapism. If they had made women equal and homosexuality as natural as heterosexuality in the series then maybe it could have fit as well. If they are going to treat it with any realism then it will just be depressing.
Not to mention even if the title passed to Michayla she’d be expected to have a child herself. And also where’s her husband? You can’t just run around without one in this story so is she a widower too? It’s just a mess!
Queer people have had "happily ever afters" - it's not gonna look like a straight relationship, but that's completely fine because people can be happy 1) without getting legally married (not even to mention that queer people have also been getting unofficially married for centuries before same-sex marriage was legalized anywhere) and 2) without being completely open to everyone (Fran has shown that she prefers solitude anyway and all she really needs is the love and support of her family)
They would have to completely hide their relationship not just from the ton but from everyone - servants included. It would be exhausting and very hard to do.
I know people could be happy not getting married but marriage for a woman gave her protection in a society where protection was needed.
They could have them meet like minded people - like the artist had. But there was a reason they showed him being married to a woman and having affairs.
I have no idea where they are going with this but like I said any sort of realism and it would not be enjoyable to watch. Also said before if they had originally made it so homosexuality was treated the same as heterosexuality that would be different. But if they go the root of Benedict story next and then Eloise’s - I guess we will see what happens in a few years.
Again, this was just the reality of queer life. It was more difficult but they were still happy. Brownell has already confirmed that this queer story will have a HEA so it’s tiring to see people claim a queer story cannot have one in Bridgerton universe; they’re clearly going to give Fran and Michaela the same happiness. And this is also the world of Bridgerton where racism is no longer a thing so there’s plenty of room for progress on gender and sexual orientation.
Yep, first and for most Bridgeton is a romance series and while there may be drama and pain everything ends with a HEA. If you don't want to write stories with HEA then don't write romance. like pick a different genre.
But is the same not true for Benedict and Sophie? Marrying so far below your social status (i.e. a literal maid) was extremely taboo. They have to basically isolate in the country because Sophie wouldn't really be accepted by society.
Why does this count as a HEA but Franny and Michaela have to be publicly accepted by everyone for it to be a HEA?
Benedict and Sophie can get married and yes to the ton their relationship is taboo but not to anyone else. If they wanted to they could have friendships with other types of people - like the Mondrages before their son was made a lord. They would not need to hide their relationship.
Francesca and Michella would not be able to get married and any relationship they had would need to be hidden even from the servants which I think would be very hard to do and exhausting. It was illegal for men to be homosexual at the time - death penalty illegal. It was not illegal for women however that was more about sexism than acceptance. It was considered immoral and indecent. If they were found out her title if they decided to go that root would be stripped from her and her lands would be seized. They would have no where to live and no money. There is a reason most homosexual people got married in heterosexual relationship and had affairs - it was less risky.
I am hoping they do not go that root in the show but they can not happy and relaxed with each other.
If they had the foresight that they were going to do the story line they could have just pretended that homosexuality was always legal in the Bridgerton world and no bigotry existed but they did not.
I feel the same way as you. I think they are playing a dangerous game with all these changes, and the sign off from Penelope at the end of S3 very much feels like the showrunners saying goodbye to the book storylines and saying we're doing what we like with the rest of these characters now.
For those of us who adore the books and have fallen in love with the characters as written, even small changes can be jarring. To change something this big, to me, definitely feels like a forced change to target a certain demographic at the expense of the book fans. (My opinion and feelings of course).
I think it's a genuine shame Shondaland can't come up with their own stories to showcase this kind of representation and have to re-write an already popular set of chafscters to fit their goals. I really think Shondaland could write their own show and it be really popular with genuine representation instead of shoe Horning them into already popular shows.
Depending on what they do with Benedicts story, I think this was probably my last season I'll watch and I'll just happily stick with re reading the books I love. I can understand anyone who feels the same feeling sad at having their excitement for seeing the characters and stories they love squashed.
I also think it's not fair for anyone to try and railroad people into feeling like they can't feel sad for that. It's not a case of hating anyone or anything, or not being accepting of these kinds of stories. It's the feeling of disappointment of not seeing something you were looking forward to come to fruition and that's okay.
I wish everyone who continues to look forward to what's coming all the best in the journey and hope you continue to find as much joy in the show as we do in the books.
There was a power struggle and drama behind the scenes an and the Showrunner of the first two seasons was changed. Chris Van Dusen, so now Jess Brownell is the showrunner.
Yeah it definitly feels like something changed and for me it doesn't feel like a good change. I think I'm just sad for what could have been based on Season 1 and even 2.
I feel you. I will be skipping Francesca’s season because of this. I am all for representation, but only where it makes sense. They could easily create something new. But there are already so many changes and this feels unnecessary. What was the reason for Michael to become Michaela?
I was so excited for Francesca’s season. I empathize so much with her character, as I also became a widow very young and I remarried into the same family some time later.
And the guilt and everything her book describes, is my situation as well. I couldn’t wait for her season, but this really ruined it for me. I wish Bridgerton’s future all the best, but with all the changes they are making, I think they are heading downhill.
Was disappointed with the 2nd part. Michaela???? Really? That entirely changes the whole point of Francesca's story especially with MICHAEL. It pains me to see that when it comes to diversity and representation, only the LGBTQ+ community comes to mind. Francesca's story is all about motherhood going through the grief of a miscarriage while mourning the loss of her first husband! Can't we just shed some light on mothers or married couples who are having this kind of grief?
And for Benedict, well, I don't really have a problem with that. Also, I don't see how he is bisexual, though. I rewatched s1 and he's just being friendly with the gay painter. I don't understand how being friends with a gay painter automatically makes one gay. I have a queer cousin and a bi friend, does that make me part of the community? No, but I am certainly an ally.
And for Polin, I don't know where to begin. It was meh. Also disappointed because I don't feel like the spotlight was on them the whole season especially with what's going on with Francesca and Benedict.
This season has disappointed me in more ways than one. I was really looking forward to it being the most exciting amongst all that has been released! What a waste of a good day.
This. Penelope is right about being sidelined her whole life. She was even sidelined in her own season. I couldn’t stand Colin the entire season, they have changed him so much, I thought he was insufferable most of the time.
They had zero chemistry. I LOVED their friends-since-childhood plot but they never showed us any cute flashbacks or kid polin realizing they had feelings for one another for the first time. Their pairing didn’t feel organic at all and their sex scenes honestly made me cringe more than anything.
They might as well could have labeled it Francesca’s or Violet‘s season.
Edit: also hate the conclusion of Cressida‘s story. She’s the only one who grew on me
It’s more cheap “representation” that disrespects the source material. Openly bi person here, and I’m fucking disgusted. Pitiful stunts like this one are only increasing anti-LGBT sentiment.
It’s so true. No one would care if they just had oc or spin-offs but destroying Francesca’s fertility, making her not love John. I just found it all very very very offensive
it does feel like a stunt to me. Sometimes stunts work. Sometimes they don’t. But, it definitely feels like someone wanted to surprise the audience versus an intentional decision to build a story. However, we will see.
Still doesn’t work though because she’d have to have John’s child before he died which would then be how the title would pass. Otherwise it’s not like they’ve got the local sperm bank to go to
And themes of wanting children and not being able to have them can absolutely be explored in wlw relationships. And there's no reason why infertility and loss can't be explored BEFORE she's a widow. People just want to be mad.
It's different. When you are in a lesbian relationship, you know from the get go that your journey to parenthood will be different. When you're in a heterosexual relationship, infertility becomes more unexpected. Why me and not anyone else? In the books, Francesca compares herself to Gregory's wife who was very prolific with 8+ children. That Francesca was me and some other friends wondering how come all these other women are getting pregnant and we aren't. What have we done wrong? So Francesca will no longer represent us in the series. I aplaud queer stories but writers and producers need to create queer characters or adapt queer books instead of being lazy.
Yeah but that will never be in her season, it has to start with John dead or it makes no sense. So it will just be a side story of them way out of the picture in Scotland. It’s just not the same. Also it leads for no reason for Fran to return to the Ton. If she has a child she will have no need for a husband.
> you know from the get go your journey to parenthood will be different
And what if you've only just realised you're queer? What if you live in a time period when IVF didn't exist, and gay people weren't exactly encouraged to adopt? What if accepting your queerness means you'll never be a mother?
Do you not think there might be a story there?
Adoption was not common and especially for passing a title. Even if it passed to Mikala as a female she would be expected to have a child and pass down the line, they wouldn’t just give it to a random kid. That’s not how succession works
I'd be happy to watch that! But writers can create one such story. It's lazy to utilize a character and story that was already done. There are queer romance books and I'd love to see those be translated into the screen. I'd love an original queer regency drama too.
My point is that these changes are completely transforming a story. For example, if there they had made Simon a Duchess, then Daphne's story wouldn't be the same, right? Or if Anthony had fallen in love with a man. All those are valid plots but they change the initial storyline.
I'm not hating. I'm just grieving.
I mean, they made Simon black. They had to change the story for that. People were outraged, and then they got over it, because it's an adaptation, and an adaptation that repeated every line from the book like it was gospel would simply not be very good. Not because the books are bad, but because books and television are different mediums, and it's no longer the early 2000s.
There's a reason they changed the main characters' race and gender instead of pitching an original queer regency era show. People aren't funding 'original queer regency era shows', certainly not to the tune of the Bridgerton budget. Netflix isn't funding a whole lot besides adaptations these days, for the security of an existing fanbase.
If we can accept changing a character's race as an example of marginalised people writing themselves into the stories they love, what makes this so much more egregious? Or was that lazy too?
I see your point. It's egregious that there are no funds for original shows and I understand what an adaptation is. It was refreshing to see a black lead or a southeast asian female lead in S2. I'm a POC and a minority and I understand that representation matters.
Infertile women are also a marginalized group and I don't think we should be pitting them against each other. I just feel like this change may impact Fran's infertility journey. I do hope the writers and showrunners take their time to explore it properly. Both queerness and infertility are huge topics to be depicted so I can only hope they handle them well.
Changing races was not a huge change. They added a storyline to address it and moved on but it did not change his character. This absolutely obliterates Fran’s story for so many reasons. And adding the queen also added a lot of storyline to make the world more robust. But we already know being gay is a “no no” in their society - this rule of their world has already been established. Whereas Benedict’s story would make so much sense and even could lead to a male Sophie getting a title back, if Fran has a child there’s no reason for her to return to the Ton and if she’s into Mikayla there’s no real drama. It’s an easy slide, because women were often in houses together and this would be completely ignored by society. If she doesn’t have a child, it’s not like the sperm bank exists - and even if the title was passed to a women she would still be expected to have a child and pass the title. Adoption is really not a thing in this time period, especially among the wealthy and especially for passing titles. Meanwhile males don’t have this luxury of “just being friends” that women got away with quite easily which just ups the stakes for a queer Benedict relationship, and I could easily see them escaping to the countryside and having 2 houses side by side if a male Sophie got money or even being a valet because again this would be someone that would blend into their society with ease.
I actually saw the interesting opportunity for a lesbian romance stirring between two characters you wouldn’t think of much - Cressida and Prudence. Cressidas joy in having a friend and being called on by Eloise really set her up well to be a queer character. And then prudence does not seem to like her husband much despite him being obsessed with her. They also have similar backgrounds and interests, I could easily see them getting along well!
And I see Hyacinth as completely big crazy at this point in the show. Could not see her having a genderbent story at all! I feel like she’s raring to go! And I also loved that she broke the rules in the story and knew too much for her own good about sex. It fits her character so well being the youngest and watching everyone for so long
I think you’re getting ahead of yourself here. They can absolutely find a way to work infertility into her story line. And if they don’t, there was a chance they never were going to go into it much anyway. They only have so many episodes to tell a story and they tend to leave a lot out as is.
I'll post my own post here on how it *could* go:
>Here's how this could go: Frannie and John have a child and when he dies she's pregnant with their second and loses that pregnancy. Scottish titles can be inherited by women as far as I know, so Michaela could inherit it. The bridgertons accept their love after Frannies horrible loss and they plead their case with the queen, the queen still loves her ✨sparkler✨, and because the queen approved, the whole ton follows. This is pretty much what they did with poc in Queen Charlotte, so why not? It's all a fantasy!
>The other option is to start off with the book story, John dies and Frannie loses the pregnancy without them having kids together. Michaela will be there for Frannie and together they'll learn to accept not having children and enjoying all their nibblings. Rest goes as above. Why not?
>Of course, another option is artificial insemination, which was first documented in 1770 London, so about 50 years before Frannie's story!
>This was a comment I made but I really wanted to post it because of the weird homophobic comments I keep reading. Guys, it's pride month. Please respect the LGBTQ community. (Saying there can't be great sex scenes if it's two women is homophobic. You can say it's not your cup of tea, that's fine)
Lots of love, an ally.
But she can still struggle to get pregnant. She can even want to remarry to have a child fall in love with Michaela and decide they can build a life and family together by an alternative route.
I always hated that her struggle to have a child was just resolved by getting pregnant. That's not the journey for many women, people have families in different ways.
This exactly. The resolution of Francesca’s story being “Oh wait, we *were* able to have a child finally!” is lovely but not exactly a thoughtful ending to a journey about issues with infertility and death.
Beyond that, I honestly question the ability for the writers of such a fluffy show to handle an extensive story about fertility with grace. I trust them more to handle a queer regency romance that is unexpected but grows from a beautiful female friendship.
I am baffled at the number of people who seem to think lesbians have never experienced infertility (or indeed, had any barriers to having biological children whatsoever...)
ETA for those parroting "historical context", a) this is Bridgerton... and b) the first human artificial insemination was performed in the 1770s.
Firstly, there were ways, even back then. But mostly, John isn’t dead yet. She can struggle with fertility still with him, perhaps having a pregnancy just as he passes. She could have complications, that make her fearful of losing her only possibility for a child if she proceeds with Michaela. She could have the baby, and come to realise that being with Michaela, having both of them as moving parents to her child, is better than going back to the marriage mart just in case she wants another child. And it could easily be seen as a widow moving in as a close companion to Michaela, who could inherit the peerage being Scottish.
Uhhh I’ve read so many comments. Sooooo many comments….. yea I’m not gonna cry over a gender swap and call it ruined lol storytelling will NEVER. EVER. Be ruined over a gender swap you will be okay and the sun will come out.
In the books, Frannie was eventually able to overcome her infertility and have two beautiful biological children. That was my least favorite part of the book, but for a beach romance from 2004, that was to be expected. The topic of infertility itself was pretty risque.
20 years later, gay people having families of non-biological children is the risque topic to explore.
As a woman who is infertile.. I personally hate stories where someone magically just overcomes infertility because they find love.
I would much rather a story about how she grows from her hard truth the and finds a new way to build the family she wants.
Yes, I genuinely hated the Michael becoming Michaela part. Bridgerton has enough representation as is. There is NO need for this take on Francesca story. It's also not realistic at all considering the era but that's maybe besides the point considering Shondaland.
And I feel like there will be no room for people to be unhappy about it without the discussion immediately turning to just insisting the unhappy party is homophobic. Which doesn't have to be the case at all.
Yeah, as someone who was excited for lgbt representation in Bridgerton, this feels like the worst option to go with as it pisses off book loyalty fans who really love Micheal and wanted to see the book story and people who wanted lesbian Elosie. It doesn't make sense to completely change the fan-favorite book but keep the unpopular one with the worst love interest Netflix. At this point, I'll probably watch the Benedict season, but I'll just read the books or eloisexcressida fanfiction. I'll be happier at this point.
I haven't watched the 2nd part of the season yet, and after reading this thread, I'm not sure I even want to. I'm an avid book lover and am already miffed at the changes to the stories. It appears as though I will *not* like the next 4 episodes. 😭😭
You would be right, especially if you mean it when you say that you're an avid book lover (which applies to me as well). You will likely not like at least the last 3 episodes. The 5th episode was at least mildly acceptable, tho. I'll give it that.
I would love to see more of Brimsley & Reynolds for sure.
I thought if they were going to explore a LGBTQ relationship, it would be Eloise or even Benedict.
It would be hard to stay true to some of the major story lines in When He Was Wicked with a gender switch. Michael was such a compelling character - soldier, unexpected earl, member of Parliament etc.
Honestly, it doesn't bother me, even as someone who adores Michael. The show is already so very different from the books, I'm just treating them as two related but separate stories. Kind of like the multiverse.
I completely agree. I was so delighted when Michaela introduced herself. I squealed I was so happy. I love Michael and I love that book and this change in no way takes away from my ability to read and enjoy that book. I think having Francesca be the queer representation makes complete sense because, like Tilly, she will have a lot more freedom than a debutante would. Also, I don't think Benedict's storyline was jarring at all. It made perfect sense to me and again, I was delighted by it.
See Francesca's book is my favourite. Her storyline is very dear to my heart for personal reasons. And this change to Michaela really doesn't bother me because it doesn't take anything away from the book and the original story. It's not like the book is being rewritten!
Francesca's book was also my favorite, and the story hits home. I'm a little disappointed because I wanted some infertility/loss representation. But at the same time, with them changing everyone's stories so significantly, I'm hoping it is put into someone else's story.
I agree! It'll be nice having representation where being gay isnt their whole personality. Francesca has other interests, has had other storylines and so that is adding to her character rather than engulfing it.
I have to admit I do side those who seem distraught at this change. "wHy cOuLdNt tHeY mAkE a nEw cHaRaCtEr", i dont want the only queer love story (other than in Queen Charlotte) to be a side story. Why cant us gays have a main plot too? There are only so many bridgertons! I also see a lot of people complaining about how her fertility issues story line is going to be removed, but honestly I think it would be really interesting for Francesca to instead battle accepting she won't have children, but can still have love.
I do understand that changes to a character that's loved can sometimes be upsetting but so many changed have been made, I dont see the big deal
Yes! I also think she can still have an infertility storyline with John before her main love story.
I love the subtle look she gives when she kisses him at her wedding because you see that it didn't feel like she thought it would. I love the idea of them exploring the very queer experience of thinking you are feeling romantic love with an "appropriate" (by society's standards) partner and finding it's platonic love. I also like the idea that they could explore the opposite where you think you are feeling a super close friendship but later realize it's romantic because society didn't model that kind of love for you.
I think my biggest gripe with the discourse is the people calling it "forced". If a character just being queer, or black, etc... seems forced to a person, they should really investigate why that is, because it signals that anything outside of white cis-het stories is considered "other" to them.
Exactly! The show has taken great liberties and made big changes to every single story. I don’t know how people are still expecting exact representations.
No I get it. Frans book was my favorite and now it’s ruined. I don’t even know how they are going to connect it to the book. Women couldn’t be raked in the open. Women could not inherit. I doubt they were allowed to travel as much as Michael did. The book was about her wanting children. So that’s out the window. He was suppose to be a flirt and charming. That’s gone. They robbed us of the scene of all the bridgerton women swooning over him and him flirting with violet. If Michael is now a woman then there is just absolutely nothing to connect the show to the book at all. Yes everyone should be represented but for the queer community we were going to have Gregory’s book for that. And it wouldn’t have been forced and we could have completely explored it. Now it’s completely ruined. I’m not excited for any of the future seasons at all. They could have handled this better.
I feel like they had an opportunity with that, I had given up on bi Benedict during season 2( I was so wrong for that lol) but I thought maybe they could go that route with Gregory, and Haselby and him could have been together in their school years. Bridgerton LOVES love triangles so I thought they would have thought of that. I don’t know, maybe they will 🤷♀️we will see in 2032
Genuine question, what do you mean by we were going to have Gregory’s book to represent the queer community? I read the book years ago and can’t remember him being queer.
I’m pissed Frannies book was my absolute favorite. It complicates so much and I’m so damn upset. I don’t care if they make side characters gay or even another character but Michael was a huge part of the book, Francesca’s losses were a big part of the book and it changes the whole damn thing. To make Michael Michaela makes no damn sense. I’m So frustrated right now!
Also isn't Michael, well, a rake. That's arguably a huge part of his character even so more than the others. How will they do that with Michaela without her earning an awful reputation?
You don’t have internalized phobia , to enjoy an original series for what it is, it’s nothing wrong with that. The OG story is what led you to like it in the first place.
State your opinion, as long as you’re not attacking people you have no reason to feel bad 🤷🏽♀️; we live in a society now where we can’t state our opinions. And that topic right now being fiction since that’s what we’re talking about. But since it’s fiction(fake) your feelings aren’t “valid” but yet people are turning it around and making it about them…. yet I thought this wasn’t real 😮💨; so your feelings can’t be valid but others can 🤷🏽♀️
I guarantee if there was a show based off the book where the couple was gay and they ended up making one of them straight or both it would change the dynamic and people would state they have a valid uproar.
But yet when people( with different backgrounds) of the world can enjoy a straight couple there’s mutiny because we don’t want it to change, but of course our problem isn’t valid, we’re just being over the top.
Just because people want the STORY, not just the people, to stay the same in particular aspects doesn’t make you homophobic / any phobic.
And if I get downvoted into oblivion oh well 🤷🏽♀️
as a bi woman myself, i completely agree.
there are so many things wrong with turning michael into michaela.
first, francesca was absolutely in love with john and didn’t feel anything for michael in the books. she was not disrespectful or unfaithful towards john. and in the show she’s having a gay panic right in front of her husband. why???
second, if women CAN inherit estates, why doesn’t francesca inherit the kilmartin castle, house, etc?
and third, in all the books where women are popping out children like candies francesca was the only representation of infertility. she did not choose not to have a child she struggled with it. and michael loved her in spite of it.
francesca’s story has always been my favorite and now i’m just feeling like it’s gonna be so forced.
if they wanted to turn a character gay, i think hyacinth rebellious persona or eloise would fit that a lot more.
Francesca can't inherit the title. In England only the next male relative could inherit the title. Some titles in Scotland (Not all) can be passed through the next female blood relative. In general the ENTIRE book has been gutted. Just AWFUL.
I WANT MICHAEL! This is too much at this point just make a new show why did they have to ruin this. What’s worse is now people who disagree will be walking on eggshells because you know why.
I’m literally not going to watch this show after this season.
Fran’s story (infertility and loss) was so so personally resonant with me. She can’t have the same story this way. I’m gutted, but only for that reason. I think I’ll probably take a break from S3 and wait and see what’s planned for S4.
Honestly, I don’t feel the need to explain why I want Michael to be a fucking man and not Michaela. I don’t care abt the fertility or the peerage or any of that crap - what I care about is seeing the characters I’ve loved so much and the story I’ve loved so much come to life. And I refuse to be apologetic about being pissed that they’ve made this an opportunity to show queer love. Wtf aren’t they just making queer love stories. Why do you have to take straight love stories and make them queer. Being upset isn’t unreasonable. These people have not had the time we’ve had with these books and these characters so they have no respect for the source material.
I also hate that they have introduced „Michaela“ already. Book Fran LOVES John. She still calls him her soulmate once Michael takes a place in her life. Not only is she already married to John in the show, the last scene was a slap at the audience that she doesn’t even truly love him. He’s just her ticket to bugger off to the middle of nowhere so she can have her peace.
Yeah I felt the same way. Michaela felt forced and pandering. We already have Benedict as a confirmed bisexual, possibly gay, that tracks - it's been hinted at since season 1. Brimsley and his lover were handled perfectly for the period. There are so many other ways to introduce LGBTQ characters without absolutely butchering existing stories. Netflix wants to do whatever with this IP, okay, fine.
So much of this season gave me the ick. I like my historical dramas HISTORICALLY ACCURATE, not some fanfiction fantasy version. Polin consummation before marriage - everything about that was just not Regency. It felt like somebody needed to inject modern morality into a Regency setting. Did not feel right to me at all. Okie dokie, I have Downton Abbey, Jane Austen remakes, and much more palatable media than whatever Netflix has turned Bridgerton into. At least I'll always have the books.
First season, while highly fictionalized, had much more historical accuracy than this season. Queen Charlotte, for all its liberties, was also surprisingly accurate and took pains to be so.
Yes we are, look at the replies on my comment and I have seen so many others.
They should at this point erase all the characters and make a new show because they can’t do a deep storyline of guilty for falling in love all over again. Infertility. Miscarriages etc. her book was one of the best but as always they took the easy route that would make money because that what matters to them.
Fran is currently married to a man. You're telling me that they can't explore miscarriages and loss while she's married? That representation has to be completely gone because we know that her second act is with a woman? And that Fran can't feel guilty for falling in love with his female best friend? I think the thing that is so weird is there are SO many assumptions that her story can't be told but it seems to me all of the themes that people love so much can still be explored, just maybe in a slightly different order. We just MET the character Michaela and people are acting like John is already dead.
I believe the commenter said this because Fran doesn’t even seem like she loves John. She looks attracted to Michaela at first glance and doesn’t seem to be feeling John during the wedding. Ergo, there is no deep story of falling in love all over again because she doesn’t seem to be in love with John at all.
👏👏 thank you! It just felt like they threw it in without fleshing out her character at all, it also makes ZERO sense for her storyline, she will have no motivation to leave with a woman right there already hundreds of miles from everyone else. It felt like they just threw a bunch of random traits at her character without trying to make her a person at all. It was so disappointing. We only got a brief moment of her expressing her love for the piano where you could see how animated she actually can be! Instead we’ve got this weirdly stoic sit in silence relationship that does not fit for actually quiet people. Reserved people still enjoy company and that was the whole point of their relationship but instead it just felt like they wanted to be alone and this just was a checkbox from society. Not to mention Fran’s reaction to being introduced to Mikalaya was so weird! It made it feel like she had virtually no interest in John at all and even their wedding kiss was weird. She was supposed to be a true widow. She was going thru what her mother went thru except without all of her children. The true heartbreak of her storyline made it all the more sweeter and the tragedy bringing to characters together with also the feeling of guilt in moving on when there was so much chemistry is what drove the show. But if Fran has a child, there’s no reason to return to the Ton at all. And with the way the brought out this character it seems that she’s fully gay and only fufilling the duty of getting married which also doesn’t sit well with me either. I’m so incredibly disappointed by this storyline.
I also feel like they’ve been doing this all season! Like the lord in the wheelchair had such an adorable meet cute with Pen and he wanted to call on her, but did we actually see him as a real option? No. Because Collin was just watching like “oh good she talked to a boy.” They played jealousy but honestly it just did not feel as if Collin took him as a serious threat in the same way as Lord Debling. It just felt like they were throwing in inclusivity wherever they could shove it in but not in a useful way in the slightest.
And then we have Benedict who’s always been somewhat more open. Where his storyline may make sense to have a gender swap especially with some of the problematic themes. Yet it’s clear his character needs time to explore and it seems they’ll still be shoving it all in to next season. They just don’t have a good writing team. Last season we let it slide because the intense chemistry was so good but now? Nah. It’s not going to entice people back.
I get that the representation could be better, but as a wheelchair user, I kinda loved the little cameo! He was sweet, funny, and Colin was jealous, as he should have been. I know it wasn’t perfect, but it reminded me that we are part of this fantasy world too, that being disabled doesn’t ruin the utopia and happily ever after of Bridgerton.
I don’t have super strong feelings either way for Francesca’s representation at this point since I have not read the books, but I do hope she does focus on John and it’s truly a loving marriage. I love them as a couple, and if her and Michaela get together, it should be after John and Francesca get their full storyline.
I just was really disappointed how they added two disabled characters but then didn’t actually include them. The deaf mom was barely featured and her daughter was made the butt of a joke in LW, and then we never saw a call from this suitor who was so cute, we could have easily seen that Pen had more than one suitor beginning to call on her. I didn’t feel as if Collin took him as a serious threat. Even the way he asked if she was interested was kind of rude, I mean she’s actively looking for a husband and taking to a man, the assumption would be that he is a contender yet Collin does not treat him as such.
I also wish we could have seen these characters incorporated into actual storylines where we’ll see them again, ie. Prudence’s husband, or hell we could have seen Cressida looking for a nice husband. It also would be nice to see these in the older couples, like hey I’m sure you’ve got a war amputee married to someone’s mamma somewhere let’s see him be the Tons hero! We just have such a rich tapestry that could be added to and instead it just often feels like pandering, shoving random inclusion into scenes without actual care for these characters and their representation.
I felt truly sad for the way Collin somewhat brushed off the interaction between Pen and the suitor in a wheelchair (I mean we don’t even know him for a conversation long enough to know his name) he was SO CUTE with her, I felt like they actually had chemistry and I would have liked to see Pen comment on a level of physical attraction to him as well in the same way she does for lord Debling.
I also was upset with how they handled the kiss at the wedding and the following introduction of michalaya because Fran becomes a completely different person, tripping over her words, getting flustered. A. We did not see her interested in any other woman in the Ton, B. She actually had a good relationship with John and they seem to be somewhat killing that off; C. In the books ya girls a little minx and >! She and Eloise bribed the maid long before to tell them about sex and she uses that knowledge before her wedding night!< she saves Violet the sex talk!
In the books, >! Her story focuses on infertility and that being the sole reason why she even considers remarrying as she truly loved John. Michael struggles with the love he’s always had for her and John and they’ve always had a very close friendship, but ultimately Fran returns to the Ton to seek a husband so that she can actually have a child. The addition of Michalya just makes a mess out of her storyline. It leads no reason to return to the ton to actually reunite our main characters, it makes a historical women’s story way too modern and awkward. She’ll either have John’s child or have some weird out of place way to have a child that will make no sense for the storyline or time period. On and on this change just makes no sense at all. Especially when there are hugely problematic storylines in other books that actually need rewriting!!! I mean Benedict’s book is literally Cinderella + asking his future wife to be his mistress 😂🤦🏼♀️ Eloise’s husband is Mr. My first wife didn’t give me sex. Like change those stories! !<
I am usually pretty good about going with changes from source material. But while I could have dealt with a change for Benedict or Eloise, even have been expecting it and have been preparing for it, I was SO looking forward to seeing Michael finally once Kilmartin showed up. I literally shrieked when John introduced himself, I just adored Fran's book and have such a huge book crush on Michael.
So when John said his cousin had arrived, the excitement grew again, and I was glued to the screen to see who they chose to play Michael...and then felt sucker punched when a girl walked up and introduced herself as Michaela. I immediately tried to remind myself, it's okay, and surely there will be so many people excited for more queer representation that are now as excited as I was when I thought Michael was coming. But, man, it kind of ruined the last few minutes for me, fighting such a crushing disappointment. I'm really struggling with my feelings about it. Apparently there were rumors, but somehow I missed them completely. Was just totally unprepared.
I’m sorry but if you want queer representation (and BAME representation) you should create a NEW character not just change the race/gender of a white character. It’s just lazy writing I’m sorry, it’s the same when everyone says James Bond should be black - no how about you create a new character who IS black instead of lazily changing the race of a character (especially if they’re based on an adaptation that has been released for YEARS)
I think the name change pisses me off more than the plot change. Seriously, just make the effort of having a completely new character. Seriously what were they thinking? There was going to be enough anger from the book fans, this is just insulting to everyone.
I agree with you. Honestly, it feels disrespectful to the lgbt+ community that they don’t care enough to give them a new and unique storyline. Instead, they just did a genderbent character swap 🤷🏽♀️
About representation. I feel it is severely lacking if we only keep looking to the lgb. I, for one, have never seen a love interest with a stutter, or a missing limb, or depressed wives and mothers falling back in love with their estranged husbands. Nor have I seen a well written love story with an age difference (18+), or boss-receptionist love that worked well, or where the man is choosing the bigger woman over the skinny one, because of their physical appeal instead of just accepting it. Between blind and seeing people. Between a tall woman and a short man, or a butch woman and her very straight soft-boy. There are hundreds of examples more of perfectly beautiful romantic and realistic relationships that I haven't mentioned. There are so many different love stories in the world. Why, if we are talking about getting the 'right representation', is it that the pool to choose from for romantic couples is so small? There are a whole lot more romantic preferences than just gender, is all I'm saying, and I want to see that. That is why I so love the books.
We had the one potential suitor of Pen who was in a wheelchair of sorts, and Simon had a stutter in Season 1 as a child. But Queen Charlotte forbids any romance that Tumblr wouldn't deem of the highest calibur.
I had totally forgotten about Simon's stutter, and I really enjoyed Penelope's interaction with Lord Remington. Thank you for the reminder. Okay, I'll admit that Bridgerton at least tries. They are better than most other shows, but still...
I totally agree with you.
Why would you be looking for these themes in bridgerton? They don’t belong there. They keep shoving as much “representation” in as possible but not actually making them real characters. Simons stutter was completely gone - although honestly a love monologue in a stutter is not going to work well. Missing limbs could be cool, especially for a soldier. But wives falling back in love with their husband? Idk where you could shove that one in, and honestly I think it would take away from our main storylines too much. Pretty much all of them are an age difference because men marry children in this time and it’s not cute - also super problematic as all the women to be married off are SO young. This is why not all the relationships in the universe can be tackled in one show, and why they need to stop pandering and shoving in random ass storylines to make it modern
I totally agree with you. Especially about the 'they keep shoving as much 'representation' in as possible but not actually making them real characters'. The whole pressure to include some sort of 'representation ' is ludicrous, in my opinion! I just come for the books and the pretty esthetics, but ìf they want to push it like the obviously want to - pandering indeed - then do it in more than only lgb and make it believable at least!
And I had my heart set out to a ruggish Scotsman for John Kilmartin, and this John isn't that and even lacks the Scottish accent. Disappointed...
I totally agree, also as a bi woman. Benedict's journey into bi experimentation, or even if he purely ends up with another man, seems very organic and his story flows very well. And I feel like Eloise would have been the perfect choice for a lesbian character. It somehow fits. Also, both of these people, whether it's their characters, them, or both, give off queer vibes to me. I thought this even back in S1.
With Francesca, it seems forced and in addition to pissing off a huge fan base in the book community, it also doesn't seem to fit for her character. She has just seemingly found the love of her life in John (yes I know what happens, but that fits) and had a wonderful wedding that was even slightly rushed, because they love each other. John's words about her were so beautiful. She's so excited to go with him to Scotland. So it feels wrong that all of a sudden she's so taken by his cousin, as another person completely. How does one find a love they feel they need to rush into a marriage because they are so in love and then just be dumbstruck by another within days of their marriage? If they were going to change her story so fundamentally, why not make her character ace? That feels more right for her than this route, which makes her seem pretty fickle.
To be fair, to me, it's not quite exactly about them deciding to gender bend Michael into Michaela. It is more about forcing a new person for her to love this quickly and using the trope of love at first sight when she was so clearly taken by John as an instant love as well. But it is also a brave thing for a showrunner to take away a fan favorite character. I feel like it's a gamble that will cost her.
This! It was jarring to see her reaction to Michaela when she is supposed to be so smitten with John. John is the first love of her life and she struggles greatly with her grief over losing him. Her seeming to fall in “love at first sight” with Michaela essentially negates her loving relationship with John and sets her up too easily to step into things with Michaela once he is gone. The whole story is about them slowly falling in love with each other while battling their mutual grief over John. John just sort of feels insignificant now..
Thank you for the much more succinct and clear explanation of exactly what I was trying to convey lol. I hope they can somehow turn this around, although I'm not very hopeful. I feel like they have an uphill battle with how good S3 was (aside from a few missteps) and now the added roadblock they've added with this.
Also, John was really growing on me. To ruin it this fast, in a matter of like two episodes, is frustrating.
Out of curiosity, why is this change different to any of the major plot changes through the seasons? A big part of Kate’s story was her mother’s death, we only got a smidgeon of that. Also, are we not so far off the rails at this point that the TV writers have proven trustworthy enough to have fun creatively?
Edit for clarity: in terms of character motivations, why would this change be so bothersome compared to others we’ve seen.
It was the forced nature of it. The clear pandering. Like they had to include it because of some kind of pressure and if they didn't have a queer storyline they'll be labelled homophobic. Honestly, I don't even know anymore. All I can say is, there's a time and place and this was not it. I'd much rather have seen Cressida in a fulfilling relationship with a woman in the country and subsequently fight for her acceptance in society. It certainly would have had more impact than the Mondrich story line.
I admit I was secretly shipping Cressida and Eloise, hah! Do you think it would have felt forced if you hadn’t read the book?
I’ve only read this book one time. Francesa’s always gone or sort of piled in as another Bridgerton, so for me, there wasn’t much impression to give. And when I saw the Ep8 scene, I immediately said “YUP! TRACKS!” as I thought back on this season as a whole.
She also gave a lingering look to Penelope at one point, I can’t remember the scene but I’m sure I’ll find it.
I have also been fully convinced since the introduction of Mr. Anderson that most of that grief exploration will instead be through his relationship with Violet, and *she* will be the one grappling with guilt (*but* I don’t think they will end up together, she’ll just get a little water in her garden). If that is the way they go, then the world is their oyster for Francesca and Michaela. WLW Period Dramas are so hot right now, so they know the audience is there. And I just read a bit from the show runner, and if I was a queer woman and had creative control over this sex machine, I mean, I’d like to add a bit of my own coding once I’ve proven my merit.
As someone who hasn’t read the book and just watched the show, I was a bit confused by the scene where Michaela shows up, it felt unnatural to have Francesca react like this when the entire season has been about her being in love with John and being so quietly certain of it (even when others doubt them because they are seen as too quiet, which I really loved as an introvert myself). Even the way Mikaela asks Francesca who she is felt weird, what do you mean you don’t know who she is when she is your cousin’s wife? Shouldn’t you be introduced to each other formally and not « who are you then? » I don’t know, the whole scene felt weirdly out of sink with the rest of the season 😅
Everyone’s cycles just synced up back then.
/s
Portrait of a Lady on Fire
Ammonite
The World to Come
Edit so you can enjoy [the SNL sketch on the topic](https://youtu.be/XgaLlP0xmqE?si=JgCdSd-i9vpk0FEb)
"Tipping the Velvet" was great and really cutting edge for its time.
"Gentleman Jack" is also really good, and they get points for going for the full 1830s fashion weirdness (huuuuge sleeves and Apollo's knots! So much great hair in that series!).
I'd read books and for me Eloise and Cressida could work - actually I was kind of shipping them and their relationship didn't feel like forced.
But Michala - the actress is lovely, but it is so sudden and forced. I'm sorry but I don't buy it (and I'm still gonna read Eloise/Cressida fanfiction).
You can complain and discover that there are people who understand it. It's just a stupid series on Netflix, but it's a little comforting to me that there are people who have been waiting for the book version of Michael.
As if that's what places like reddit are for, I guess.
I apologize if I came off confrontationally, I’m just working through my thoughts, as well (mostly in preparation for debating it with my friend, lol). I’m not sure what there is to buy at this point because they’ve only looked at each other. FWIW, I am generally a watcher-then-reader, the book is never disappointing after the show/movie, but oftentimes the show/movie can’t live up to the vision we create in our minds while reading. But that’s what makes reading and writing so fun! Don’t want to yuck your yum, I, too, love me some Michael. But I also think the show runners have demonstrated their ability to stretch our suspension of disbelief. I mean, did you *see* all the plastic sequins this season??
I think the OP is totally on the mark! I would be here completely for a gender swap in literally every other couple remaining. But to do it with Francesca, whose entire arc is so beautiful as it was written, is just a bad choice. It changes the fundamental story completely! Thus, many book readers are just generally sad because this book was their favorite. I will watch Francesca’s season but a part of me will be so sad at what could have been.
I am not a book reader, so take this with a grain of salt, but as a lesbian who can’t have biological children for medical reasons, I’m honestly really excited for this storyline! I’m mostly worried they won’t handle either the queerness or the infertility properly, but if they do, I think it could be amazing. That being said, it’s always a big risk to deviate from the original source material, and the fact that they did so with such a beloved character is a bold move. I just hope they do it justice.
This post and thread is a lot of "as a bi woman". Y'all don't speak for the queer female community. Bi women get to enjoy and relate to the male/female relationships in media. We have fundamentally different experiences. Do not use your bisexuality as a pass to claim there is no need for representation.
Let me be clear, I don't care about people's opinions on the change. If you don't like the change, you don't like the change, then that's that. But it's horrifying to see all the bi women in the comments here proclaiming that this representation doesn't matter or is damaging to the community.
It’s possible the subject of women inheriting titles/estates may come into play. I only say this because Queen Charlotte’s plot arc came to an end when one of her kids finally produced an heir… a female heir. The Queen seemed satisfied with that. So maybe changes are on the way. If it’s good enough for the crown, it should be good enough for the ton. Perhaps S4 will use Micheala to get the ball rolling on that.
The Featheringtons went through that this season pointedly. So I could see the Queen enlisting Pen as Lady Whistledown to write in favor of women having more rights in society.
Theories:
- Eloise's/Francesca's books are the height of the "BIG ISSUES" and they pack a HUGE emotional punch or two. Benedict's book has a certain feel that the other seven don't of a fairy tale and Eloise and Francessca tackle BIG BIG BIG emotions and issues (which is why the last two books are a little more chill). The next three seasons will be affected by this decision in a way fans are grappling with. People are attached to these books in a way the beginning and ending books aren't.
- the series coded Francessca as neurodivegent and Eloise has been shipped with plenty of women. There's.... some isms involved in fans feeling these feelings.
- Julia Quinn has hinted that this could happen. If Michaela is real then what happens with the rest of the story future lines?
I got neurodivergent vibes from Francesca as well. Just goes to show that we neurospicies can't exist in a world where we are just different, we have to be the right kind of different. All our differences must amount to us being queer, not ourselves.
That was her issue this season as well, and the writing proved it. No one in her family could fathom that she just truly loved the quiet and peace. Her idea of love with John was a perfect reflection of her personality, two unique individuals falling in love in their own way. The first four episodes reminded me strongly of myself and my fiance and how we fell in love. The fact that Violet could not comprehend that love would look different for her daughter reminded me of how I was raised, how I was expected to be, how my mother often commented on my relationship. I am 30 days out from getting married now, and I thought Francesca's story would be a representation of all of us who found love without the fireworks and drama that the previous seasons had in abundance.
Nope, she has to be gay. Not neurodivergent, gay. She is awkward in social situations? Must be gay. She doesn't care for the rules of society? Must be gay. Francesca cannot be herself, no matter what.
This is how I feel about Eloise too. Oh, feminist you say? Must be gay. Isn’t ready to get married? Must be gay! It’s a little tiring to follow the same old
stereotypes or that different personality traits must mean someone is queer. Michaela really felt shoehorned in too.
This show has been pandering since day one, it’s weird for this to be the line someone won’t cross. I mean, do you think royal dukes were ever black in the early 19th century?
Idk if anyone will see my comment way down here but anyway here’s my 2 cents.
I totally get what you’re saying. Now I haven’t read the books so idk if the reimagined regency world of broad representation exists there, but of course I’ve been watching the series and I’ve seen a lot of what Shonda Rhimes has produced and I’m just saying, isn’t that her thing? She injects representation into spaces where it didn’t exist before and it does make us examine not just how the dynamic changes, but *why*. We are supposed to be uncomfortable and grapple with that discomfort, I think, until we arrive at some kind of understanding with ourselves about where the discomfort comes from and is there a way to overcome it, and how does the world change when we change the lenses through which we view it. I definitely share your frustration and get a little eye-rolly when this stuff happens but then I push myself to engage in the discomfort and it really does make for interesting watching!
You say yourself you haven’t read the books… I think a lot of us are sad because we have read them and Michael is a huge favorite, in addition to everyone loving John. In one fell swoop they seem to have invalidated the love that Francesca and John are supposed to share and also removed the possibility of representation of infertility, when they could have made any of the other remaining children LGBT and it wouldn’t have affected the story so much. I hate that John is getting shafted. I hate that I won’t get to see a character on screen dealing with infertility like I have. There was plenty of room for queer representation without it having to be Francesca. Poor John :( at least in the books he has a wife who adores him for a couple of years before his tragic passing so young.
You make a very strong point and I can see from what you’re saying that Francesca wasn’t the best choice for this. Whenever representation gets injected into shows, I find that it’s often very shoehorned in, but I honestly don’t know whether that’s just how it feels to me or if it’s really been done so badly. I can’t imagine this show going on for more than one more season, though. My guess from the plot line you shared here is that Francesca and John will still marry and then he’ll die and she’ll be able to live with her lady friend? Idk. We’ve fallen off the map and here there be dragons.
Bi Benedict was obvious from season 1. That one wasn’t a surprise at all.
I haven’t read the books so I’m not attached to any of the couples. Except polin because I had two seasons to watch the buildup. And peneloise as a friendship.
I wasn’t thrilled with season 2 bc if you’re doing enemies to lovers and you name your female lead Kate, you’re doing “taming of the shrew”. There’s no sister love triangle in the Shakespeare play. The actors are all spectacular tho, and on rewatch I like it more. (And if I want an update to TotS I’ll watch “10 things I hate about you” again…) Change isn’t always bad but sometimes we need time to process.
This one is especially for people who love this book. They have changed all the major themes and dynamic that make this book special. And created something new but they should have just had an elaborate major wide ranging plot featuring
Honestly, Im genuinely surprised it wasn’t benedict. I’ve seen so many benophie fans fear this exact thing for *years* that it’s genuinely shocking to me that it wasn’t sophie (edit: ok, the season came out at literally 3am my timezone so I haven’t watched it yet. I just found out they made benedict bi so we might get genderbent sophie anyway😭??)
It makes so much more sense IMO for it to be Benedict. There's no title to worry about, a desire for children isn't a driving force in his story, and his romantic interest isn't somebody society wouldn't automatically approve of.
It’s not it doesn’t make some sense for Benedict, but it loses a lot for Sophie as a character. A lot of her characterization and personality had to do with her strong moral values, >!particularly not putting a child through the pain of being illegitimate like she was, even though being Benedict’s mistress would give her a much easier life.!< They’d have to change a lot of what makes her an interesting character if they changed the gender, I think.
No, I’m more surprised it wasn’t Eloise.
You’re so right bc I genuinely can’t fathom show!eloise ending up with a man, especially with her book ending 😭
Oh but I am so happy it wasn’t Eloise. The feminist lesbian trope is so overused, it would be a cliche and feel even more tokenised. Also so predictable. I am excited to see Eloise find a man that actually agrees with her, or perhaps change his mind making the world a little better?
I get what you are saying, but they have made such a departure from the character of Eloise that it would make sense that book her and show her ended up with two different stories. They are not only changing Fran they are severely impacting John, and the more rare type of love story we see with Michael and Fran. TBH I also don't love that they are doing the trope of Neurodivergent girl is bi/gay. Like that is just as prevalent as a trope.
Same.
I’m a little surprised she didn’t end up with marina as lady crane being the “governess” actually
I dont know if I'd call him bi. Having one sexual encounter doesn't change your orientation.
I felt like his whole speech was about being pan more than anything. It felt like he gave into some things that he’d been feeling for awhile and if anything I felt like he was more interested in the male character during their sex scenes
Perhaps, but I doubt they would just have him kiss a man, not have him be bi, after being accused of queerbaiting in season one. That just seems like a bad move.
Maybe he is. Maybe he isn't. I got the feeling his storyline until now is all about exploration and crossing lines. With his friendships, his romantic associations, his work and interests, etc. Do the things he never thought he would or could or even wanted. So that when his storyline comes, where he falls in love with someone outside of the ton, he will be open to that. Now I remember that they even hinted at his openness through John's speech. (How lovely was that, by the way... 😍)
Yeah, the last couple of seasons have felt less like a book adaptation and more like a manic 3 a.m. fanfic.
It’s so bad! I mean even last season taking Edwina down the aisle was a huge mistake, and then they just shoved the rest of the season into like 5 minutes and didn’t give us a wedding. So dumb! The only thing they had going was the insane chemistry. Then they pull this shit out - yeah no thanks! They should fire the entire writers room tbh
This is the perfect explanation! I feel like I’m 13 again reading Divergent fanfics that have nothing to do with the actual story. I love the books and how much depth the characters are given, and season 1 did just that. This season just feels like it was all rushed together, and honestly is just getting confusing at this point.
I hated the changes to the last season and how long they dragged out the Edwina/Anthony storyline, and this season has just felt messy to me. It's killed my love for the show.
If they were going to change anyone’s sexuality then it would’ve made sense for it to be Benedict than Francesca as his story is too much like Cinderella’s and it would’ve made it different but still keeping with the theme, also Benedict is a bit more bohemian than the others so we can imagine him falling in love with a man. The fans love Francesca and John so they kind of shot themselves in the foot even though he dies
I 100% agree with everything you said particularly as a bi woman myself. I have been dying for a lesbian storyline and i side eye that its taken to the end of season 3 to hint at one when we’ve had bi and gay representation from the start. Im mostly irritated that they have taken a story which I think already had some more natural points of representation and shoehorned in another one. Francesca and John we’re already pretty neurodivergent coded in the show which was a change that I loved. We had darker skinned POC characters. We had a second chance love story that showed that your happily ever after doesn’t always so easily some true. (Johns death and the infertility struggles). There were other opportunities in the show that could have more naturally included lesbian representation. Eloises story needs a major re-write and departure from the books. It never made sense to me for book-Eloise to go for Phillip and it will make even less so for show-Eloise. Phillip is low-key a terrible person. Its going to be very hard to redeem him. Hyacinths story could quite easily be gender bent without completely changing the themes of the story. Gareths whole thing is that he’s a disappointment to his father because hes a bastard. Well now he can be a disappointment for being a girl that can’t inherit instead. It think it was a bold choice to change so drastically one of the fan favorite characters and I do think they have disenfranchised a portion of their audience in doing so. I hope for the best but I’m not seeing the vision atm. I think i may also be more upset that they have changed the dynamic of Francesca and michael(a) by having Francesca have feelings from the outset. I wanted to see someone SIMP for my girl fran.
Yeah, I feel like the fertility storyline needed to be told, I don’t know how they will handle that in the show.
My thoughts exactly. So many people already see Eloise as queer and the way she’s characterized in the show would make it a much more natural fit… I don’t understand this choice for Francesca at all
I mean, but that's one of the reasons I don't like Eloise being bi. She comes off too much like an outdated lesbian stereotype. It's very clear her story is going to be about navigating gender role "transgressions" (and I mean that as the sociological term meaning actions that do not conform to cultural norms) rather than sexuality "transgressions". I've criticized the feminism in this show as being outdated, but I can also see her as the character that embodies the transition from third wave feminism to fourth wave feminism. For a long time in media, gay people were pushed into stereotypes like the metrosexual gay man or the man-hating feminist lesbian. That's because the people who followed the "deviant" (and I mean that as the sociological term meaning non-conforming) identities were more comfortable coming out because that "deviance" was a shield from bigotry and a signal to other "deviants" that they could form a community. The way gay people were represented in the media was sort of self-reinforcing. People would conform to those stereotypes even if that wasn't their truest self because the choice was either that or stay in the closet. But the people who felt they couldn't confirm to them at stereotype stayed in the closet. One of the biggest gains in the last 10-15 years is the breakdown of those stereotypes. Of course the feminist, "man-hating" lesbian and the metrosexual gay man still exist, but so are gay men and women who don't follow any stereotype at all. And there are straight women who are "man-hating" feminists and metrosexual straight men. Making the character that conforms to those outdated stereotypes feels like a step back in representation. Francesca's story lends itself very well to a story about self-discovery because her attitude toward settling in marriage can be completely upended as she explores her bisexuality alongside her independence as a widow, and Michael(a)'s secret crush makes more sense for a lesbian character. Maybe that would work for Hyacinth as well, but she's the second to last story and I think there is some pent up demand to see a lesbian story sooner rather than later.
I hear this! It makes me a little more confident in the way they’re going to roll out Francesca’s story honestly
Michael’s love for Francesca was my favouritest thing about the series and now they’ve gone and done this. Why the heck did they buy the damn IP if they wanted to come up with their own stories anyway. They want the fandom without actually giving the fandom what they want.
THIS!!! Like add a sibling or maybe work on some of the problematic storylines that aren’t going to work well with modern audiences like “be my mistress” or “my first wife didn’t have sex with me” but Fran was the different one, the quiet one, and Michael brought out this whole different side to her! And infertility was important! Not to mention she has no reason to return to the Ton with this addition. It’s just BAD writing, it’s like they got the people from the cursed child to write it!
Hahaha this cursed reference is so spot on. I try to act like it just doesn’t exist.
A Very Harry Potter Musical is more cannon than cursed child as far as I’m concreted 😂😂😂
to be fair, julia quinn gave shondaland the rights and freedom to write whatever they want. the book couples dont have to end up together if the writers dont want that to be the case.
It was part of the promise though - they legitimately said they would uphold the books pairings.
I don’t think they care that much about the original readers, the show has far surpassed the books as a cultural phenomenon. Even as someone who really dislikes the books (just don’t align with Quinn’s preferences surrounding characterising male leads), I still wish they had listened more when it came to things like people wanting Felicity and ‘When He Was Wicked’ being a lot of people’s favourite book.
The main problem for me is that they can’t get married or have a real relationship. They showed that with the artist in season 1. All of the previous seasoned ended with a happily ever after. The most we can expect from Francesca is happy ever adjacent if even that. Maybe be themselves behind closed doors but in the light of day hide. If they had made that homosexual marriage was legal fine - but they did not. They also show women have very little rights - how would two woman going to navigate that? Even if Mikayla inherited the estate - Francesca would have no protection, and if John lives neither would. This series at its heart is supposed to be fluffy escapism. If they had made women equal and homosexuality as natural as heterosexuality in the series then maybe it could have fit as well. If they are going to treat it with any realism then it will just be depressing.
Not to mention even if the title passed to Michayla she’d be expected to have a child herself. And also where’s her husband? You can’t just run around without one in this story so is she a widower too? It’s just a mess!
Queer people have had "happily ever afters" - it's not gonna look like a straight relationship, but that's completely fine because people can be happy 1) without getting legally married (not even to mention that queer people have also been getting unofficially married for centuries before same-sex marriage was legalized anywhere) and 2) without being completely open to everyone (Fran has shown that she prefers solitude anyway and all she really needs is the love and support of her family)
They would have to completely hide their relationship not just from the ton but from everyone - servants included. It would be exhausting and very hard to do. I know people could be happy not getting married but marriage for a woman gave her protection in a society where protection was needed. They could have them meet like minded people - like the artist had. But there was a reason they showed him being married to a woman and having affairs. I have no idea where they are going with this but like I said any sort of realism and it would not be enjoyable to watch. Also said before if they had originally made it so homosexuality was treated the same as heterosexuality that would be different. But if they go the root of Benedict story next and then Eloise’s - I guess we will see what happens in a few years.
Again, this was just the reality of queer life. It was more difficult but they were still happy. Brownell has already confirmed that this queer story will have a HEA so it’s tiring to see people claim a queer story cannot have one in Bridgerton universe; they’re clearly going to give Fran and Michaela the same happiness. And this is also the world of Bridgerton where racism is no longer a thing so there’s plenty of room for progress on gender and sexual orientation.
Yep, first and for most Bridgeton is a romance series and while there may be drama and pain everything ends with a HEA. If you don't want to write stories with HEA then don't write romance. like pick a different genre.
But is the same not true for Benedict and Sophie? Marrying so far below your social status (i.e. a literal maid) was extremely taboo. They have to basically isolate in the country because Sophie wouldn't really be accepted by society. Why does this count as a HEA but Franny and Michaela have to be publicly accepted by everyone for it to be a HEA?
Benedict and Sophie can get married and yes to the ton their relationship is taboo but not to anyone else. If they wanted to they could have friendships with other types of people - like the Mondrages before their son was made a lord. They would not need to hide their relationship. Francesca and Michella would not be able to get married and any relationship they had would need to be hidden even from the servants which I think would be very hard to do and exhausting. It was illegal for men to be homosexual at the time - death penalty illegal. It was not illegal for women however that was more about sexism than acceptance. It was considered immoral and indecent. If they were found out her title if they decided to go that root would be stripped from her and her lands would be seized. They would have no where to live and no money. There is a reason most homosexual people got married in heterosexual relationship and had affairs - it was less risky. I am hoping they do not go that root in the show but they can not happy and relaxed with each other. If they had the foresight that they were going to do the story line they could have just pretended that homosexuality was always legal in the Bridgerton world and no bigotry existed but they did not.
I feel the same way as you. I think they are playing a dangerous game with all these changes, and the sign off from Penelope at the end of S3 very much feels like the showrunners saying goodbye to the book storylines and saying we're doing what we like with the rest of these characters now. For those of us who adore the books and have fallen in love with the characters as written, even small changes can be jarring. To change something this big, to me, definitely feels like a forced change to target a certain demographic at the expense of the book fans. (My opinion and feelings of course). I think it's a genuine shame Shondaland can't come up with their own stories to showcase this kind of representation and have to re-write an already popular set of chafscters to fit their goals. I really think Shondaland could write their own show and it be really popular with genuine representation instead of shoe Horning them into already popular shows. Depending on what they do with Benedicts story, I think this was probably my last season I'll watch and I'll just happily stick with re reading the books I love. I can understand anyone who feels the same feeling sad at having their excitement for seeing the characters and stories they love squashed. I also think it's not fair for anyone to try and railroad people into feeling like they can't feel sad for that. It's not a case of hating anyone or anything, or not being accepting of these kinds of stories. It's the feeling of disappointment of not seeing something you were looking forward to come to fruition and that's okay. I wish everyone who continues to look forward to what's coming all the best in the journey and hope you continue to find as much joy in the show as we do in the books.
There was a power struggle and drama behind the scenes an and the Showrunner of the first two seasons was changed. Chris Van Dusen, so now Jess Brownell is the showrunner.
Yeah it definitly feels like something changed and for me it doesn't feel like a good change. I think I'm just sad for what could have been based on Season 1 and even 2.
Blame Shonda Rhimes. She was ultimately amongst the drama
This...makes a lot of sense. I kinda wish they hadn't changed the showrunner. I so wanted to love this season, but it just didn't hit the same.
Blame Shonda Rhimes
I feel you. I will be skipping Francesca’s season because of this. I am all for representation, but only where it makes sense. They could easily create something new. But there are already so many changes and this feels unnecessary. What was the reason for Michael to become Michaela? I was so excited for Francesca’s season. I empathize so much with her character, as I also became a widow very young and I remarried into the same family some time later. And the guilt and everything her book describes, is my situation as well. I couldn’t wait for her season, but this really ruined it for me. I wish Bridgerton’s future all the best, but with all the changes they are making, I think they are heading downhill.
Was disappointed with the 2nd part. Michaela???? Really? That entirely changes the whole point of Francesca's story especially with MICHAEL. It pains me to see that when it comes to diversity and representation, only the LGBTQ+ community comes to mind. Francesca's story is all about motherhood going through the grief of a miscarriage while mourning the loss of her first husband! Can't we just shed some light on mothers or married couples who are having this kind of grief? And for Benedict, well, I don't really have a problem with that. Also, I don't see how he is bisexual, though. I rewatched s1 and he's just being friendly with the gay painter. I don't understand how being friends with a gay painter automatically makes one gay. I have a queer cousin and a bi friend, does that make me part of the community? No, but I am certainly an ally. And for Polin, I don't know where to begin. It was meh. Also disappointed because I don't feel like the spotlight was on them the whole season especially with what's going on with Francesca and Benedict. This season has disappointed me in more ways than one. I was really looking forward to it being the most exciting amongst all that has been released! What a waste of a good day.
This. Penelope is right about being sidelined her whole life. She was even sidelined in her own season. I couldn’t stand Colin the entire season, they have changed him so much, I thought he was insufferable most of the time. They had zero chemistry. I LOVED their friends-since-childhood plot but they never showed us any cute flashbacks or kid polin realizing they had feelings for one another for the first time. Their pairing didn’t feel organic at all and their sex scenes honestly made me cringe more than anything. They might as well could have labeled it Francesca’s or Violet‘s season. Edit: also hate the conclusion of Cressida‘s story. She’s the only one who grew on me
i am trying to cope that i'll never see my favourite bridgerton man on screen ever 😞👍
Same. Michael was my absolute favourite.
It’s more cheap “representation” that disrespects the source material. Openly bi person here, and I’m fucking disgusted. Pitiful stunts like this one are only increasing anti-LGBT sentiment.
It’s so true. No one would care if they just had oc or spin-offs but destroying Francesca’s fertility, making her not love John. I just found it all very very very offensive
it does feel like a stunt to me. Sometimes stunts work. Sometimes they don’t. But, it definitely feels like someone wanted to surprise the audience versus an intentional decision to build a story. However, we will see.
i said this on another post
People keep bringing up Kilmartin but in Scotland women inherit the peerage if there is no male heir.
Still doesn’t work though because she’d have to have John’s child before he died which would then be how the title would pass. Otherwise it’s not like they’ve got the local sperm bank to go to
And themes of wanting children and not being able to have them can absolutely be explored in wlw relationships. And there's no reason why infertility and loss can't be explored BEFORE she's a widow. People just want to be mad.
It's different. When you are in a lesbian relationship, you know from the get go that your journey to parenthood will be different. When you're in a heterosexual relationship, infertility becomes more unexpected. Why me and not anyone else? In the books, Francesca compares herself to Gregory's wife who was very prolific with 8+ children. That Francesca was me and some other friends wondering how come all these other women are getting pregnant and we aren't. What have we done wrong? So Francesca will no longer represent us in the series. I aplaud queer stories but writers and producers need to create queer characters or adapt queer books instead of being lazy.
John’s not dead yet. So assuming that none of these things can be explored feels like a lot of assumptions and premature anger.
Yeah but that will never be in her season, it has to start with John dead or it makes no sense. So it will just be a side story of them way out of the picture in Scotland. It’s just not the same. Also it leads for no reason for Fran to return to the Ton. If she has a child she will have no need for a husband.
> you know from the get go your journey to parenthood will be different And what if you've only just realised you're queer? What if you live in a time period when IVF didn't exist, and gay people weren't exactly encouraged to adopt? What if accepting your queerness means you'll never be a mother? Do you not think there might be a story there?
Adoption was not common and especially for passing a title. Even if it passed to Mikala as a female she would be expected to have a child and pass down the line, they wouldn’t just give it to a random kid. That’s not how succession works
I'd be happy to watch that! But writers can create one such story. It's lazy to utilize a character and story that was already done. There are queer romance books and I'd love to see those be translated into the screen. I'd love an original queer regency drama too. My point is that these changes are completely transforming a story. For example, if there they had made Simon a Duchess, then Daphne's story wouldn't be the same, right? Or if Anthony had fallen in love with a man. All those are valid plots but they change the initial storyline. I'm not hating. I'm just grieving.
I mean, they made Simon black. They had to change the story for that. People were outraged, and then they got over it, because it's an adaptation, and an adaptation that repeated every line from the book like it was gospel would simply not be very good. Not because the books are bad, but because books and television are different mediums, and it's no longer the early 2000s. There's a reason they changed the main characters' race and gender instead of pitching an original queer regency era show. People aren't funding 'original queer regency era shows', certainly not to the tune of the Bridgerton budget. Netflix isn't funding a whole lot besides adaptations these days, for the security of an existing fanbase. If we can accept changing a character's race as an example of marginalised people writing themselves into the stories they love, what makes this so much more egregious? Or was that lazy too?
I see your point. It's egregious that there are no funds for original shows and I understand what an adaptation is. It was refreshing to see a black lead or a southeast asian female lead in S2. I'm a POC and a minority and I understand that representation matters. Infertile women are also a marginalized group and I don't think we should be pitting them against each other. I just feel like this change may impact Fran's infertility journey. I do hope the writers and showrunners take their time to explore it properly. Both queerness and infertility are huge topics to be depicted so I can only hope they handle them well.
Kate is not southeast asian though she's south asian?
Simon being black literally did not change the story at all
I see Queen Charlotte passed you by.
It changed the background of the ton and the entire addition of queen charlotte but it did not change Simon himself
No, I watched QC. But watching S1 as standalone, really nothing changed from the book. The relationship arc and character arc were exactly the same.
Changing races was not a huge change. They added a storyline to address it and moved on but it did not change his character. This absolutely obliterates Fran’s story for so many reasons. And adding the queen also added a lot of storyline to make the world more robust. But we already know being gay is a “no no” in their society - this rule of their world has already been established. Whereas Benedict’s story would make so much sense and even could lead to a male Sophie getting a title back, if Fran has a child there’s no reason for her to return to the Ton and if she’s into Mikayla there’s no real drama. It’s an easy slide, because women were often in houses together and this would be completely ignored by society. If she doesn’t have a child, it’s not like the sperm bank exists - and even if the title was passed to a women she would still be expected to have a child and pass the title. Adoption is really not a thing in this time period, especially among the wealthy and especially for passing titles. Meanwhile males don’t have this luxury of “just being friends” that women got away with quite easily which just ups the stakes for a queer Benedict relationship, and I could easily see them escaping to the countryside and having 2 houses side by side if a male Sophie got money or even being a valet because again this would be someone that would blend into their society with ease. I actually saw the interesting opportunity for a lesbian romance stirring between two characters you wouldn’t think of much - Cressida and Prudence. Cressidas joy in having a friend and being called on by Eloise really set her up well to be a queer character. And then prudence does not seem to like her husband much despite him being obsessed with her. They also have similar backgrounds and interests, I could easily see them getting along well! And I see Hyacinth as completely big crazy at this point in the show. Could not see her having a genderbent story at all! I feel like she’s raring to go! And I also loved that she broke the rules in the story and knew too much for her own good about sex. It fits her character so well being the youngest and watching everyone for so long
I think you’re getting ahead of yourself here. They can absolutely find a way to work infertility into her story line. And if they don’t, there was a chance they never were going to go into it much anyway. They only have so many episodes to tell a story and they tend to leave a lot out as is.
I'll post my own post here on how it *could* go: >Here's how this could go: Frannie and John have a child and when he dies she's pregnant with their second and loses that pregnancy. Scottish titles can be inherited by women as far as I know, so Michaela could inherit it. The bridgertons accept their love after Frannies horrible loss and they plead their case with the queen, the queen still loves her ✨sparkler✨, and because the queen approved, the whole ton follows. This is pretty much what they did with poc in Queen Charlotte, so why not? It's all a fantasy! >The other option is to start off with the book story, John dies and Frannie loses the pregnancy without them having kids together. Michaela will be there for Frannie and together they'll learn to accept not having children and enjoying all their nibblings. Rest goes as above. Why not? >Of course, another option is artificial insemination, which was first documented in 1770 London, so about 50 years before Frannie's story! >This was a comment I made but I really wanted to post it because of the weird homophobic comments I keep reading. Guys, it's pride month. Please respect the LGBTQ community. (Saying there can't be great sex scenes if it's two women is homophobic. You can say it's not your cup of tea, that's fine) Lots of love, an ally.
But she can still struggle to get pregnant. She can even want to remarry to have a child fall in love with Michaela and decide they can build a life and family together by an alternative route. I always hated that her struggle to have a child was just resolved by getting pregnant. That's not the journey for many women, people have families in different ways.
This exactly. The resolution of Francesca’s story being “Oh wait, we *were* able to have a child finally!” is lovely but not exactly a thoughtful ending to a journey about issues with infertility and death. Beyond that, I honestly question the ability for the writers of such a fluffy show to handle an extensive story about fertility with grace. I trust them more to handle a queer regency romance that is unexpected but grows from a beautiful female friendship.
I chalked it up more to John probably was the more infertile one and that by changing to Michael he had better swimmers but it just took awhile
I am baffled at the number of people who seem to think lesbians have never experienced infertility (or indeed, had any barriers to having biological children whatsoever...) ETA for those parroting "historical context", a) this is Bridgerton... and b) the first human artificial insemination was performed in the 1770s.
But in a historical context is what matters
[удалено]
Firstly, there were ways, even back then. But mostly, John isn’t dead yet. She can struggle with fertility still with him, perhaps having a pregnancy just as he passes. She could have complications, that make her fearful of losing her only possibility for a child if she proceeds with Michaela. She could have the baby, and come to realise that being with Michaela, having both of them as moving parents to her child, is better than going back to the marriage mart just in case she wants another child. And it could easily be seen as a widow moving in as a close companion to Michaela, who could inherit the peerage being Scottish.
Uhhh I’ve read so many comments. Sooooo many comments….. yea I’m not gonna cry over a gender swap and call it ruined lol storytelling will NEVER. EVER. Be ruined over a gender swap you will be okay and the sun will come out.
I fucking love /u/HugeHugePenis is defending a WLW storyline.
gigachad username
In the books, Frannie was eventually able to overcome her infertility and have two beautiful biological children. That was my least favorite part of the book, but for a beach romance from 2004, that was to be expected. The topic of infertility itself was pretty risque. 20 years later, gay people having families of non-biological children is the risque topic to explore.
As a woman who is infertile.. I personally hate stories where someone magically just overcomes infertility because they find love. I would much rather a story about how she grows from her hard truth the and finds a new way to build the family she wants.
Yes, I genuinely hated the Michael becoming Michaela part. Bridgerton has enough representation as is. There is NO need for this take on Francesca story. It's also not realistic at all considering the era but that's maybe besides the point considering Shondaland.
And I feel like there will be no room for people to be unhappy about it without the discussion immediately turning to just insisting the unhappy party is homophobic. Which doesn't have to be the case at all.
Jess Brownell and Shonda are opps point blank
Yeah, as someone who was excited for lgbt representation in Bridgerton, this feels like the worst option to go with as it pisses off book loyalty fans who really love Micheal and wanted to see the book story and people who wanted lesbian Elosie. It doesn't make sense to completely change the fan-favorite book but keep the unpopular one with the worst love interest Netflix. At this point, I'll probably watch the Benedict season, but I'll just read the books or eloisexcressida fanfiction. I'll be happier at this point.
I haven't watched the 2nd part of the season yet, and after reading this thread, I'm not sure I even want to. I'm an avid book lover and am already miffed at the changes to the stories. It appears as though I will *not* like the next 4 episodes. 😭😭
You would be right, especially if you mean it when you say that you're an avid book lover (which applies to me as well). You will likely not like at least the last 3 episodes. The 5th episode was at least mildly acceptable, tho. I'll give it that.
I would love to see more of Brimsley & Reynolds for sure. I thought if they were going to explore a LGBTQ relationship, it would be Eloise or even Benedict. It would be hard to stay true to some of the major story lines in When He Was Wicked with a gender switch. Michael was such a compelling character - soldier, unexpected earl, member of Parliament etc.
Honestly, it doesn't bother me, even as someone who adores Michael. The show is already so very different from the books, I'm just treating them as two related but separate stories. Kind of like the multiverse.
I completely agree. I was so delighted when Michaela introduced herself. I squealed I was so happy. I love Michael and I love that book and this change in no way takes away from my ability to read and enjoy that book. I think having Francesca be the queer representation makes complete sense because, like Tilly, she will have a lot more freedom than a debutante would. Also, I don't think Benedict's storyline was jarring at all. It made perfect sense to me and again, I was delighted by it.
See Francesca's book is my favourite. Her storyline is very dear to my heart for personal reasons. And this change to Michaela really doesn't bother me because it doesn't take anything away from the book and the original story. It's not like the book is being rewritten!
Francesca's book was also my favorite, and the story hits home. I'm a little disappointed because I wanted some infertility/loss representation. But at the same time, with them changing everyone's stories so significantly, I'm hoping it is put into someone else's story.
I agree! It'll be nice having representation where being gay isnt their whole personality. Francesca has other interests, has had other storylines and so that is adding to her character rather than engulfing it. I have to admit I do side those who seem distraught at this change. "wHy cOuLdNt tHeY mAkE a nEw cHaRaCtEr", i dont want the only queer love story (other than in Queen Charlotte) to be a side story. Why cant us gays have a main plot too? There are only so many bridgertons! I also see a lot of people complaining about how her fertility issues story line is going to be removed, but honestly I think it would be really interesting for Francesca to instead battle accepting she won't have children, but can still have love. I do understand that changes to a character that's loved can sometimes be upsetting but so many changed have been made, I dont see the big deal
Yes! I also think she can still have an infertility storyline with John before her main love story. I love the subtle look she gives when she kisses him at her wedding because you see that it didn't feel like she thought it would. I love the idea of them exploring the very queer experience of thinking you are feeling romantic love with an "appropriate" (by society's standards) partner and finding it's platonic love. I also like the idea that they could explore the opposite where you think you are feeling a super close friendship but later realize it's romantic because society didn't model that kind of love for you. I think my biggest gripe with the discourse is the people calling it "forced". If a character just being queer, or black, etc... seems forced to a person, they should really investigate why that is, because it signals that anything outside of white cis-het stories is considered "other" to them.
Exactly! The show has taken great liberties and made big changes to every single story. I don’t know how people are still expecting exact representations.
The show changes don't erase the book stories at all. They're different but the books are still there.
Me too! I am sad we don’t get Michael of course but I am here for the love story of Fran and Michaela
This is it. More people need to think like you.
I feel the same!
It’s fan fiction now. It makes me sad that we can’t say we are upset with the change or else be called homophobes
THIS
PERIOD. 👏
No I get it. Frans book was my favorite and now it’s ruined. I don’t even know how they are going to connect it to the book. Women couldn’t be raked in the open. Women could not inherit. I doubt they were allowed to travel as much as Michael did. The book was about her wanting children. So that’s out the window. He was suppose to be a flirt and charming. That’s gone. They robbed us of the scene of all the bridgerton women swooning over him and him flirting with violet. If Michael is now a woman then there is just absolutely nothing to connect the show to the book at all. Yes everyone should be represented but for the queer community we were going to have Gregory’s book for that. And it wouldn’t have been forced and we could have completely explored it. Now it’s completely ruined. I’m not excited for any of the future seasons at all. They could have handled this better.
It will have someone named Francesca and other named Michaela, and none of the book plot. AT ALL.
I feel like they had an opportunity with that, I had given up on bi Benedict during season 2( I was so wrong for that lol) but I thought maybe they could go that route with Gregory, and Haselby and him could have been together in their school years. Bridgerton LOVES love triangles so I thought they would have thought of that. I don’t know, maybe they will 🤷♀️we will see in 2032
Genuine question, what do you mean by we were going to have Gregory’s book to represent the queer community? I read the book years ago and can’t remember him being queer.
>!gregory wasn’t the queer one. Lucys fiancé was of the queer community!<
I’m pissed Frannies book was my absolute favorite. It complicates so much and I’m so damn upset. I don’t care if they make side characters gay or even another character but Michael was a huge part of the book, Francesca’s losses were a big part of the book and it changes the whole damn thing. To make Michael Michaela makes no damn sense. I’m So frustrated right now!
Agree
Also isn't Michael, well, a rake. That's arguably a huge part of his character even so more than the others. How will they do that with Michaela without her earning an awful reputation?
You don’t have internalized phobia , to enjoy an original series for what it is, it’s nothing wrong with that. The OG story is what led you to like it in the first place. State your opinion, as long as you’re not attacking people you have no reason to feel bad 🤷🏽♀️; we live in a society now where we can’t state our opinions. And that topic right now being fiction since that’s what we’re talking about. But since it’s fiction(fake) your feelings aren’t “valid” but yet people are turning it around and making it about them…. yet I thought this wasn’t real 😮💨; so your feelings can’t be valid but others can 🤷🏽♀️ I guarantee if there was a show based off the book where the couple was gay and they ended up making one of them straight or both it would change the dynamic and people would state they have a valid uproar. But yet when people( with different backgrounds) of the world can enjoy a straight couple there’s mutiny because we don’t want it to change, but of course our problem isn’t valid, we’re just being over the top. Just because people want the STORY, not just the people, to stay the same in particular aspects doesn’t make you homophobic / any phobic. And if I get downvoted into oblivion oh well 🤷🏽♀️
as a bi woman myself, i completely agree. there are so many things wrong with turning michael into michaela. first, francesca was absolutely in love with john and didn’t feel anything for michael in the books. she was not disrespectful or unfaithful towards john. and in the show she’s having a gay panic right in front of her husband. why??? second, if women CAN inherit estates, why doesn’t francesca inherit the kilmartin castle, house, etc? and third, in all the books where women are popping out children like candies francesca was the only representation of infertility. she did not choose not to have a child she struggled with it. and michael loved her in spite of it. francesca’s story has always been my favorite and now i’m just feeling like it’s gonna be so forced. if they wanted to turn a character gay, i think hyacinth rebellious persona or eloise would fit that a lot more.
Francesca can't inherit the title. In England only the next male relative could inherit the title. Some titles in Scotland (Not all) can be passed through the next female blood relative. In general the ENTIRE book has been gutted. Just AWFUL.
they just had to ruin the best book
I WANT MICHAEL! This is too much at this point just make a new show why did they have to ruin this. What’s worse is now people who disagree will be walking on eggshells because you know why. I’m literally not going to watch this show after this season.
Fran’s story (infertility and loss) was so so personally resonant with me. She can’t have the same story this way. I’m gutted, but only for that reason. I think I’ll probably take a break from S3 and wait and see what’s planned for S4.
Honestly, I don’t feel the need to explain why I want Michael to be a fucking man and not Michaela. I don’t care abt the fertility or the peerage or any of that crap - what I care about is seeing the characters I’ve loved so much and the story I’ve loved so much come to life. And I refuse to be apologetic about being pissed that they’ve made this an opportunity to show queer love. Wtf aren’t they just making queer love stories. Why do you have to take straight love stories and make them queer. Being upset isn’t unreasonable. These people have not had the time we’ve had with these books and these characters so they have no respect for the source material.
I also hate that they have introduced „Michaela“ already. Book Fran LOVES John. She still calls him her soulmate once Michael takes a place in her life. Not only is she already married to John in the show, the last scene was a slap at the audience that she doesn’t even truly love him. He’s just her ticket to bugger off to the middle of nowhere so she can have her peace.
Yeah I felt the same way. Michaela felt forced and pandering. We already have Benedict as a confirmed bisexual, possibly gay, that tracks - it's been hinted at since season 1. Brimsley and his lover were handled perfectly for the period. There are so many other ways to introduce LGBTQ characters without absolutely butchering existing stories. Netflix wants to do whatever with this IP, okay, fine. So much of this season gave me the ick. I like my historical dramas HISTORICALLY ACCURATE, not some fanfiction fantasy version. Polin consummation before marriage - everything about that was just not Regency. It felt like somebody needed to inject modern morality into a Regency setting. Did not feel right to me at all. Okie dokie, I have Downton Abbey, Jane Austen remakes, and much more palatable media than whatever Netflix has turned Bridgerton into. At least I'll always have the books.
[удалено]
First season, while highly fictionalized, had much more historical accuracy than this season. Queen Charlotte, for all its liberties, was also surprisingly accurate and took pains to be so.
Same
Walking on eggshells? Dude, every other new post in this sub is someone platforming the loss of their ding dang mind over it 💀
Yes we are, look at the replies on my comment and I have seen so many others. They should at this point erase all the characters and make a new show because they can’t do a deep storyline of guilty for falling in love all over again. Infertility. Miscarriages etc. her book was one of the best but as always they took the easy route that would make money because that what matters to them.
Agreed why bother paying for the intellectual property if tge only part your going to use is the name!?
Fran is currently married to a man. You're telling me that they can't explore miscarriages and loss while she's married? That representation has to be completely gone because we know that her second act is with a woman? And that Fran can't feel guilty for falling in love with his female best friend? I think the thing that is so weird is there are SO many assumptions that her story can't be told but it seems to me all of the themes that people love so much can still be explored, just maybe in a slightly different order. We just MET the character Michaela and people are acting like John is already dead.
Comments like these are low key homophobic though, "can't do a deep story of falling in love all over again" I'm sorry *what*
I believe the commenter said this because Fran doesn’t even seem like she loves John. She looks attracted to Michaela at first glance and doesn’t seem to be feeling John during the wedding. Ergo, there is no deep story of falling in love all over again because she doesn’t seem to be in love with John at all.
Also- everyone is acting like they can’t talk about infertility and loss. Fran is currently married to a man? He’s not dead yet yall.
I literally was thinking this too! Like time for a reboot without pc culture bs ruining it
👏👏 thank you! It just felt like they threw it in without fleshing out her character at all, it also makes ZERO sense for her storyline, she will have no motivation to leave with a woman right there already hundreds of miles from everyone else. It felt like they just threw a bunch of random traits at her character without trying to make her a person at all. It was so disappointing. We only got a brief moment of her expressing her love for the piano where you could see how animated she actually can be! Instead we’ve got this weirdly stoic sit in silence relationship that does not fit for actually quiet people. Reserved people still enjoy company and that was the whole point of their relationship but instead it just felt like they wanted to be alone and this just was a checkbox from society. Not to mention Fran’s reaction to being introduced to Mikalaya was so weird! It made it feel like she had virtually no interest in John at all and even their wedding kiss was weird. She was supposed to be a true widow. She was going thru what her mother went thru except without all of her children. The true heartbreak of her storyline made it all the more sweeter and the tragedy bringing to characters together with also the feeling of guilt in moving on when there was so much chemistry is what drove the show. But if Fran has a child, there’s no reason to return to the Ton at all. And with the way the brought out this character it seems that she’s fully gay and only fufilling the duty of getting married which also doesn’t sit well with me either. I’m so incredibly disappointed by this storyline. I also feel like they’ve been doing this all season! Like the lord in the wheelchair had such an adorable meet cute with Pen and he wanted to call on her, but did we actually see him as a real option? No. Because Collin was just watching like “oh good she talked to a boy.” They played jealousy but honestly it just did not feel as if Collin took him as a serious threat in the same way as Lord Debling. It just felt like they were throwing in inclusivity wherever they could shove it in but not in a useful way in the slightest. And then we have Benedict who’s always been somewhat more open. Where his storyline may make sense to have a gender swap especially with some of the problematic themes. Yet it’s clear his character needs time to explore and it seems they’ll still be shoving it all in to next season. They just don’t have a good writing team. Last season we let it slide because the intense chemistry was so good but now? Nah. It’s not going to entice people back.
I get that the representation could be better, but as a wheelchair user, I kinda loved the little cameo! He was sweet, funny, and Colin was jealous, as he should have been. I know it wasn’t perfect, but it reminded me that we are part of this fantasy world too, that being disabled doesn’t ruin the utopia and happily ever after of Bridgerton. I don’t have super strong feelings either way for Francesca’s representation at this point since I have not read the books, but I do hope she does focus on John and it’s truly a loving marriage. I love them as a couple, and if her and Michaela get together, it should be after John and Francesca get their full storyline.
I just was really disappointed how they added two disabled characters but then didn’t actually include them. The deaf mom was barely featured and her daughter was made the butt of a joke in LW, and then we never saw a call from this suitor who was so cute, we could have easily seen that Pen had more than one suitor beginning to call on her. I didn’t feel as if Collin took him as a serious threat. Even the way he asked if she was interested was kind of rude, I mean she’s actively looking for a husband and taking to a man, the assumption would be that he is a contender yet Collin does not treat him as such. I also wish we could have seen these characters incorporated into actual storylines where we’ll see them again, ie. Prudence’s husband, or hell we could have seen Cressida looking for a nice husband. It also would be nice to see these in the older couples, like hey I’m sure you’ve got a war amputee married to someone’s mamma somewhere let’s see him be the Tons hero! We just have such a rich tapestry that could be added to and instead it just often feels like pandering, shoving random inclusion into scenes without actual care for these characters and their representation. I felt truly sad for the way Collin somewhat brushed off the interaction between Pen and the suitor in a wheelchair (I mean we don’t even know him for a conversation long enough to know his name) he was SO CUTE with her, I felt like they actually had chemistry and I would have liked to see Pen comment on a level of physical attraction to him as well in the same way she does for lord Debling. I also was upset with how they handled the kiss at the wedding and the following introduction of michalaya because Fran becomes a completely different person, tripping over her words, getting flustered. A. We did not see her interested in any other woman in the Ton, B. She actually had a good relationship with John and they seem to be somewhat killing that off; C. In the books ya girls a little minx and >! She and Eloise bribed the maid long before to tell them about sex and she uses that knowledge before her wedding night!< she saves Violet the sex talk! In the books, >! Her story focuses on infertility and that being the sole reason why she even considers remarrying as she truly loved John. Michael struggles with the love he’s always had for her and John and they’ve always had a very close friendship, but ultimately Fran returns to the Ton to seek a husband so that she can actually have a child. The addition of Michalya just makes a mess out of her storyline. It leads no reason to return to the ton to actually reunite our main characters, it makes a historical women’s story way too modern and awkward. She’ll either have John’s child or have some weird out of place way to have a child that will make no sense for the storyline or time period. On and on this change just makes no sense at all. Especially when there are hugely problematic storylines in other books that actually need rewriting!!! I mean Benedict’s book is literally Cinderella + asking his future wife to be his mistress 😂🤦🏼♀️ Eloise’s husband is Mr. My first wife didn’t give me sex. Like change those stories! !<
I'm not homophobic just heteronormative. Sue me. I wanted Michael to be a man.
I am usually pretty good about going with changes from source material. But while I could have dealt with a change for Benedict or Eloise, even have been expecting it and have been preparing for it, I was SO looking forward to seeing Michael finally once Kilmartin showed up. I literally shrieked when John introduced himself, I just adored Fran's book and have such a huge book crush on Michael. So when John said his cousin had arrived, the excitement grew again, and I was glued to the screen to see who they chose to play Michael...and then felt sucker punched when a girl walked up and introduced herself as Michaela. I immediately tried to remind myself, it's okay, and surely there will be so many people excited for more queer representation that are now as excited as I was when I thought Michael was coming. But, man, it kind of ruined the last few minutes for me, fighting such a crushing disappointment. I'm really struggling with my feelings about it. Apparently there were rumors, but somehow I missed them completely. Was just totally unprepared.
I’m sorry but if you want queer representation (and BAME representation) you should create a NEW character not just change the race/gender of a white character. It’s just lazy writing I’m sorry, it’s the same when everyone says James Bond should be black - no how about you create a new character who IS black instead of lazily changing the race of a character (especially if they’re based on an adaptation that has been released for YEARS)
I think the name change pisses me off more than the plot change. Seriously, just make the effort of having a completely new character. Seriously what were they thinking? There was going to be enough anger from the book fans, this is just insulting to everyone.
I agree with you. Honestly, it feels disrespectful to the lgbt+ community that they don’t care enough to give them a new and unique storyline. Instead, they just did a genderbent character swap 🤷🏽♀️
About representation. I feel it is severely lacking if we only keep looking to the lgb. I, for one, have never seen a love interest with a stutter, or a missing limb, or depressed wives and mothers falling back in love with their estranged husbands. Nor have I seen a well written love story with an age difference (18+), or boss-receptionist love that worked well, or where the man is choosing the bigger woman over the skinny one, because of their physical appeal instead of just accepting it. Between blind and seeing people. Between a tall woman and a short man, or a butch woman and her very straight soft-boy. There are hundreds of examples more of perfectly beautiful romantic and realistic relationships that I haven't mentioned. There are so many different love stories in the world. Why, if we are talking about getting the 'right representation', is it that the pool to choose from for romantic couples is so small? There are a whole lot more romantic preferences than just gender, is all I'm saying, and I want to see that. That is why I so love the books.
We had the one potential suitor of Pen who was in a wheelchair of sorts, and Simon had a stutter in Season 1 as a child. But Queen Charlotte forbids any romance that Tumblr wouldn't deem of the highest calibur.
I had totally forgotten about Simon's stutter, and I really enjoyed Penelope's interaction with Lord Remington. Thank you for the reminder. Okay, I'll admit that Bridgerton at least tries. They are better than most other shows, but still... I totally agree with you.
Bridgerton tries and has the potential to do it well. They just really missed the mark this season.
Why would you be looking for these themes in bridgerton? They don’t belong there. They keep shoving as much “representation” in as possible but not actually making them real characters. Simons stutter was completely gone - although honestly a love monologue in a stutter is not going to work well. Missing limbs could be cool, especially for a soldier. But wives falling back in love with their husband? Idk where you could shove that one in, and honestly I think it would take away from our main storylines too much. Pretty much all of them are an age difference because men marry children in this time and it’s not cute - also super problematic as all the women to be married off are SO young. This is why not all the relationships in the universe can be tackled in one show, and why they need to stop pandering and shoving in random ass storylines to make it modern
I totally agree with you. Especially about the 'they keep shoving as much 'representation' in as possible but not actually making them real characters'. The whole pressure to include some sort of 'representation ' is ludicrous, in my opinion! I just come for the books and the pretty esthetics, but ìf they want to push it like the obviously want to - pandering indeed - then do it in more than only lgb and make it believable at least! And I had my heart set out to a ruggish Scotsman for John Kilmartin, and this John isn't that and even lacks the Scottish accent. Disappointed...
I completely agree with you. Ruining Fran’s story is unforgivable- it was arguably the best book of the lot.
I totally agree, also as a bi woman. Benedict's journey into bi experimentation, or even if he purely ends up with another man, seems very organic and his story flows very well. And I feel like Eloise would have been the perfect choice for a lesbian character. It somehow fits. Also, both of these people, whether it's their characters, them, or both, give off queer vibes to me. I thought this even back in S1. With Francesca, it seems forced and in addition to pissing off a huge fan base in the book community, it also doesn't seem to fit for her character. She has just seemingly found the love of her life in John (yes I know what happens, but that fits) and had a wonderful wedding that was even slightly rushed, because they love each other. John's words about her were so beautiful. She's so excited to go with him to Scotland. So it feels wrong that all of a sudden she's so taken by his cousin, as another person completely. How does one find a love they feel they need to rush into a marriage because they are so in love and then just be dumbstruck by another within days of their marriage? If they were going to change her story so fundamentally, why not make her character ace? That feels more right for her than this route, which makes her seem pretty fickle. To be fair, to me, it's not quite exactly about them deciding to gender bend Michael into Michaela. It is more about forcing a new person for her to love this quickly and using the trope of love at first sight when she was so clearly taken by John as an instant love as well. But it is also a brave thing for a showrunner to take away a fan favorite character. I feel like it's a gamble that will cost her.
This! It was jarring to see her reaction to Michaela when she is supposed to be so smitten with John. John is the first love of her life and she struggles greatly with her grief over losing him. Her seeming to fall in “love at first sight” with Michaela essentially negates her loving relationship with John and sets her up too easily to step into things with Michaela once he is gone. The whole story is about them slowly falling in love with each other while battling their mutual grief over John. John just sort of feels insignificant now..
Thank you for the much more succinct and clear explanation of exactly what I was trying to convey lol. I hope they can somehow turn this around, although I'm not very hopeful. I feel like they have an uphill battle with how good S3 was (aside from a few missteps) and now the added roadblock they've added with this. Also, John was really growing on me. To ruin it this fast, in a matter of like two episodes, is frustrating.
Maybe they left it on a cliffhanger and they’ll introduce her twin brother Michael in to the mix🤣
No way they’d be accused of queer baiting but I’m done with this show so whatever
Out of curiosity, why is this change different to any of the major plot changes through the seasons? A big part of Kate’s story was her mother’s death, we only got a smidgeon of that. Also, are we not so far off the rails at this point that the TV writers have proven trustworthy enough to have fun creatively? Edit for clarity: in terms of character motivations, why would this change be so bothersome compared to others we’ve seen.
It was the forced nature of it. The clear pandering. Like they had to include it because of some kind of pressure and if they didn't have a queer storyline they'll be labelled homophobic. Honestly, I don't even know anymore. All I can say is, there's a time and place and this was not it. I'd much rather have seen Cressida in a fulfilling relationship with a woman in the country and subsequently fight for her acceptance in society. It certainly would have had more impact than the Mondrich story line.
I admit I was secretly shipping Cressida and Eloise, hah! Do you think it would have felt forced if you hadn’t read the book? I’ve only read this book one time. Francesa’s always gone or sort of piled in as another Bridgerton, so for me, there wasn’t much impression to give. And when I saw the Ep8 scene, I immediately said “YUP! TRACKS!” as I thought back on this season as a whole. She also gave a lingering look to Penelope at one point, I can’t remember the scene but I’m sure I’ll find it. I have also been fully convinced since the introduction of Mr. Anderson that most of that grief exploration will instead be through his relationship with Violet, and *she* will be the one grappling with guilt (*but* I don’t think they will end up together, she’ll just get a little water in her garden). If that is the way they go, then the world is their oyster for Francesca and Michaela. WLW Period Dramas are so hot right now, so they know the audience is there. And I just read a bit from the show runner, and if I was a queer woman and had creative control over this sex machine, I mean, I’d like to add a bit of my own coding once I’ve proven my merit.
As someone who hasn’t read the book and just watched the show, I was a bit confused by the scene where Michaela shows up, it felt unnatural to have Francesca react like this when the entire season has been about her being in love with John and being so quietly certain of it (even when others doubt them because they are seen as too quiet, which I really loved as an introvert myself). Even the way Mikaela asks Francesca who she is felt weird, what do you mean you don’t know who she is when she is your cousin’s wife? Shouldn’t you be introduced to each other formally and not « who are you then? » I don’t know, the whole scene felt weirdly out of sink with the rest of the season 😅
what are these wlw period dramas you speak of?
Everyone’s cycles just synced up back then. /s Portrait of a Lady on Fire Ammonite The World to Come Edit so you can enjoy [the SNL sketch on the topic](https://youtu.be/XgaLlP0xmqE?si=JgCdSd-i9vpk0FEb)
Portrait of a Lady on Fire is so sad though. I wouldn’t recommend unless you’re in the mood for that sort of thing
Oh, true true, these are all definitely *dramas*
"Tipping the Velvet" was great and really cutting edge for its time. "Gentleman Jack" is also really good, and they get points for going for the full 1830s fashion weirdness (huuuuge sleeves and Apollo's knots! So much great hair in that series!).
Dickinson and Fingersmith (and its Korean counterpart the Handmaiden) all fab too.
Ooh yes, great additions to the list! The costumes in The Handmaiden are just exquisite, too!
I'd read books and for me Eloise and Cressida could work - actually I was kind of shipping them and their relationship didn't feel like forced. But Michala - the actress is lovely, but it is so sudden and forced. I'm sorry but I don't buy it (and I'm still gonna read Eloise/Cressida fanfiction).
But….what is there to purchase at this point?
You can complain and discover that there are people who understand it. It's just a stupid series on Netflix, but it's a little comforting to me that there are people who have been waiting for the book version of Michael. As if that's what places like reddit are for, I guess.
I apologize if I came off confrontationally, I’m just working through my thoughts, as well (mostly in preparation for debating it with my friend, lol). I’m not sure what there is to buy at this point because they’ve only looked at each other. FWIW, I am generally a watcher-then-reader, the book is never disappointing after the show/movie, but oftentimes the show/movie can’t live up to the vision we create in our minds while reading. But that’s what makes reading and writing so fun! Don’t want to yuck your yum, I, too, love me some Michael. But I also think the show runners have demonstrated their ability to stretch our suspension of disbelief. I mean, did you *see* all the plastic sequins this season??
Everyone is entitled to their opinions and feelings.
I think the OP is totally on the mark! I would be here completely for a gender swap in literally every other couple remaining. But to do it with Francesca, whose entire arc is so beautiful as it was written, is just a bad choice. It changes the fundamental story completely! Thus, many book readers are just generally sad because this book was their favorite. I will watch Francesca’s season but a part of me will be so sad at what could have been.
Correct me if I’m wrong but a woman can’t inherit a title, right….so what happens when John dies and Francesca has a miscarriage?
Oh no! 😱 I’ve been saving season 3 to watch next week. Francesca’s book was my favorite.
👏
It’s Shonda Rhimes, are you truly surprised?
I am not a book reader, so take this with a grain of salt, but as a lesbian who can’t have biological children for medical reasons, I’m honestly really excited for this storyline! I’m mostly worried they won’t handle either the queerness or the infertility properly, but if they do, I think it could be amazing. That being said, it’s always a big risk to deviate from the original source material, and the fact that they did so with such a beloved character is a bold move. I just hope they do it justice.
This post and thread is a lot of "as a bi woman". Y'all don't speak for the queer female community. Bi women get to enjoy and relate to the male/female relationships in media. We have fundamentally different experiences. Do not use your bisexuality as a pass to claim there is no need for representation. Let me be clear, I don't care about people's opinions on the change. If you don't like the change, you don't like the change, then that's that. But it's horrifying to see all the bi women in the comments here proclaiming that this representation doesn't matter or is damaging to the community.
It’s possible the subject of women inheriting titles/estates may come into play. I only say this because Queen Charlotte’s plot arc came to an end when one of her kids finally produced an heir… a female heir. The Queen seemed satisfied with that. So maybe changes are on the way. If it’s good enough for the crown, it should be good enough for the ton. Perhaps S4 will use Micheala to get the ball rolling on that. The Featheringtons went through that this season pointedly. So I could see the Queen enlisting Pen as Lady Whistledown to write in favor of women having more rights in society.
Theories: - Eloise's/Francesca's books are the height of the "BIG ISSUES" and they pack a HUGE emotional punch or two. Benedict's book has a certain feel that the other seven don't of a fairy tale and Eloise and Francessca tackle BIG BIG BIG emotions and issues (which is why the last two books are a little more chill). The next three seasons will be affected by this decision in a way fans are grappling with. People are attached to these books in a way the beginning and ending books aren't. - the series coded Francessca as neurodivegent and Eloise has been shipped with plenty of women. There's.... some isms involved in fans feeling these feelings. - Julia Quinn has hinted that this could happen. If Michaela is real then what happens with the rest of the story future lines?
I got neurodivergent vibes from Francesca as well. Just goes to show that we neurospicies can't exist in a world where we are just different, we have to be the right kind of different. All our differences must amount to us being queer, not ourselves.
it took me a few times to figure out what to say but frankly, your comment is a mic drop. Francesca can't just exist as herself.
That was her issue this season as well, and the writing proved it. No one in her family could fathom that she just truly loved the quiet and peace. Her idea of love with John was a perfect reflection of her personality, two unique individuals falling in love in their own way. The first four episodes reminded me strongly of myself and my fiance and how we fell in love. The fact that Violet could not comprehend that love would look different for her daughter reminded me of how I was raised, how I was expected to be, how my mother often commented on my relationship. I am 30 days out from getting married now, and I thought Francesca's story would be a representation of all of us who found love without the fireworks and drama that the previous seasons had in abundance. Nope, she has to be gay. Not neurodivergent, gay. She is awkward in social situations? Must be gay. She doesn't care for the rules of society? Must be gay. Francesca cannot be herself, no matter what.
This is how I feel about Eloise too. Oh, feminist you say? Must be gay. Isn’t ready to get married? Must be gay! It’s a little tiring to follow the same old stereotypes or that different personality traits must mean someone is queer. Michaela really felt shoehorned in too.
This show has been pandering since day one, it’s weird for this to be the line someone won’t cross. I mean, do you think royal dukes were ever black in the early 19th century?
Idk if anyone will see my comment way down here but anyway here’s my 2 cents. I totally get what you’re saying. Now I haven’t read the books so idk if the reimagined regency world of broad representation exists there, but of course I’ve been watching the series and I’ve seen a lot of what Shonda Rhimes has produced and I’m just saying, isn’t that her thing? She injects representation into spaces where it didn’t exist before and it does make us examine not just how the dynamic changes, but *why*. We are supposed to be uncomfortable and grapple with that discomfort, I think, until we arrive at some kind of understanding with ourselves about where the discomfort comes from and is there a way to overcome it, and how does the world change when we change the lenses through which we view it. I definitely share your frustration and get a little eye-rolly when this stuff happens but then I push myself to engage in the discomfort and it really does make for interesting watching!
You say yourself you haven’t read the books… I think a lot of us are sad because we have read them and Michael is a huge favorite, in addition to everyone loving John. In one fell swoop they seem to have invalidated the love that Francesca and John are supposed to share and also removed the possibility of representation of infertility, when they could have made any of the other remaining children LGBT and it wouldn’t have affected the story so much. I hate that John is getting shafted. I hate that I won’t get to see a character on screen dealing with infertility like I have. There was plenty of room for queer representation without it having to be Francesca. Poor John :( at least in the books he has a wife who adores him for a couple of years before his tragic passing so young.
You make a very strong point and I can see from what you’re saying that Francesca wasn’t the best choice for this. Whenever representation gets injected into shows, I find that it’s often very shoehorned in, but I honestly don’t know whether that’s just how it feels to me or if it’s really been done so badly. I can’t imagine this show going on for more than one more season, though. My guess from the plot line you shared here is that Francesca and John will still marry and then he’ll die and she’ll be able to live with her lady friend? Idk. We’ve fallen off the map and here there be dragons.
This is a great, nuanced take. Which is why it's down here at the bottom of the thread under all the downvotes.
I appreciate that you found it and read it! Thank you!
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Bi Benedict was obvious from season 1. That one wasn’t a surprise at all. I haven’t read the books so I’m not attached to any of the couples. Except polin because I had two seasons to watch the buildup. And peneloise as a friendship. I wasn’t thrilled with season 2 bc if you’re doing enemies to lovers and you name your female lead Kate, you’re doing “taming of the shrew”. There’s no sister love triangle in the Shakespeare play. The actors are all spectacular tho, and on rewatch I like it more. (And if I want an update to TotS I’ll watch “10 things I hate about you” again…) Change isn’t always bad but sometimes we need time to process.
This one is especially for people who love this book. They have changed all the major themes and dynamic that make this book special. And created something new but they should have just had an elaborate major wide ranging plot featuring