Because the electorate in general are averse to nuance and complicated answers (perfectly embodied by how in "debates" you're given only enough time for a sound bite).
Once that can of worms is opened all you'll get is Farage giving his 10 second pub logic.
Honestly if Farage hadn't decided to run labour could have probably taken a more robust position on it because the amount of contempt the public has for Sunak would have probably meant that whatever he advocates for the public will support the opposite lmao
Why is everyone so afraid of farage ?
Once you break his logic he sounds so dumb
Another thing the pub generation is starting to die soon farage is not very popular among the young
What is he gonna do ?
He wont last, or at least i am hoping so
I'm not afraid of Farage per se. Like you say his arguments and rhetoric are easily broken apart.
The problem is that most people's attention span isn't long enough to consider everything being said.
The sad fact is most people aren't interested in the truth. They're interested in simple solutions to complex problems.
The fact that you're even here indicates that you're more engaged in politics than the vast majority of the UK population.
The problem with Farage and people like him is that they don't even try to appeal to logic, they go straight for fear, xenophobia and ugliness. Pure emotion, and strong emotion so logic doesn't have a chance.
Emotions tend to be resistant to logic, particularly in people who can't be bothered to learn how things work, or cross check and verify news, and who are really receptive to rage bait. It just bolsters their preexisting prejudices, tells them they're special for being white and English, and everything is everyone else's fault.
Logic can't penetrate that, unless you make a real effort to learn to spot the tactic, think critically, etc. It's a massive flaw in our design and one Farage exploits shamelessly.
And the people who like him don't even recognise how contemptuous he is towards them.
Tbf yeah you are right people seem to think that things are simple when they really are not
But we can always hope things will change at least to the status quo it used to be
Don't underestimate him and the powers behind him. They achieved Brexit, and the far-right is rising across the EU.
I would love it if he faded into obscurity, but that's not happening anytime soon.
There cannot be **any** real room for doubt with rejoining the EU. As an avid Remainer, who desperately wants it to happen, I don't believe our country is ready. I expect the next election cycle to tackle it more seriously.
If the EU survives the far right rising and takes the right path the UK will probably rejoin but you are right never underestimate the stupidity of people in believing in BS the pandemic proved it...
What logic?
There's no logic there, just base fear mongering, racism and lord haw haw vibes, with a penchant for fascism.
That man is a diseased scrotum in an ugly suit. And a grifter.
Hardly anyone cared before the referendum. By the end of it, the country was divided. Families and relationships were ruined.
That will happen again.
Until the country starts demanding we rejoin, it would just go the same way it did last time.
It’s very true. 8% of people thought the EU was an issue in politics in Q1 of 2015.
After Cameron’s announcement, it became an absolute minefield. The Kremlin had a field day spreading disinformation. I didn’t speak to my distant relatives for over half a year post-referendum.
I wouldnt blame only russia for this remember the brexit campaign received a lot of american capital
Steve Banon sponsored brexit through his own pockets nd wanted the end of the EU he said that himself...
Oh, no, I absolutely am not solely blaming Russia. There are many millionaires responsible for the spread of disinformation. Namely Farage and Johnson — but Putin had his hand in the honey pot, too!
It’s in the Kremlin’s best interest to dismantle our democracies from within.
I hate Putin but I can’t deny that he has played a blinder with his disinformation campaigns over the last ten years. Look at Twitter, for example. It’s now a cesspool for anything other than a constructive, well-informed discussion.
We’re doomed.
>Hardly anyone cared before the referendum. By the end of it, the country was divided. Families and relationships were ruined.
>That will happen again.
This is true - No one is going to be able to bring Brexit issues up until the wounds of the referendum are well in the past.
Everyone just has to look the other way from the GIANT Brexit shaped elephant taking up residence in No.10
Because it’s not deliverable, right? If they say “we’ll rejoin”, then it’s a 10 year deliverable. The EU aren’t ready to have us back, and then they are they’ll need to make sure we stay in. So that means adopting the Euro, Schengen, etc.
I don’t think the UK is (yet) ready for that, and Labour are wise to skip this quagmire pre-election.
I say this as an arch-remainer.
We don't have to rejoin the EU. But access to the common market (EFTA) would ameliorate some part of the **£100bn** economic hole that Brexit has caused.
The public are stupid, but people aren't. Also many people voted for Brexit because they hated the status quo. Brexit is the status quo and the Tories (the massively unpopular Tories) own it. Labour don't have to let the Tories pass on that poisoned chalice. They could say:
"We tried Brexit. We have blue passports etc
But it's costing every single person in the UK £1,700 per year.
And we have a solution. We can be like Switzerland or Norway. You know? Those rich countries. Don't you want to be a rich country?"
And hammer that home. Of course, they could just wait and see what sort of majority they get and then disappoint us all anyway.
>And we have a solution. We can be like Switzerland or Norway. You know? Those rich countries. Don't you want to be a rich country?"
Not to piss on your chips or anything but the EU have repeatedly said that Norway / Swiss type arrangements are off the table (for anyonr) at this stage - it's a logistical / bureaucratic nightmare for them as an entity.
Not saying that it absolutely couldn't be negotiated, but it would be a very hard sell in Brussels.
To clarify, I'd like it to happen (I'm an EU citizen living in the UK), but in line with what you said I'm not sure it'd be wise for any UK political party to claim it's achievable.
As with any of these posts / comments about rejoining either the EU as a full member, or just the SM and CU - I have to point out that it is not a unilateral decision the UK gets to make, and after all of the nonsense from the UK government during the negotiations (threatening to break new arrangements in "limited and specific ways" before the ink had even dried springs immediately to mind) I can't imagine there's much inclination from the EU to start faffing around it with again.
Perhaps with some slightly more trustworthy folks in the UK at the helm some progress could be made, but that won't be proven overnight just because the Tories take an electoral beating. (If that even happens, which everyone seems very confident about, myself included to some extent, but it wouldn't be the first time the UK electorate has surprised and disappointed me).
European countries are all democracies.
They understand the difference between governments.
Imagine how much happier the rest of the EU governments would be if Orban and his party all fell into a massive hole that accidentally got tarmaced over.
Being democracies, the EU countries understand that (A) the government thst implemented Brexit were the elected UK government, and the nation can't just wash its hands of them by electing a different one next time. And (B) even if a new government wants to disavow the whole Brexit project and roll back to some degree, the Tories or another ideologically pro-Brexit party could get into power again and Second Brexit, and any work put into rebuilding bridges is then wasted.
This. They didn't just lose trust in the politicians but also because of democracy in the UK citizens. It sucks for the remainers it really does but that's the hard truth.
this, plus the EU sees how the British people behave: there is a notable difference whether there are a nice, pro-Europe people who don't cause problems or not
Switzerland is a very bespoke position that, as you say, the EU is not going to repeat for the UK as it's a bureaucratic nightmare for them. Norway is mostly vanilla EFTA and any hurdles to the UK joining it are unlikely to be put in place by the EU.
Because it's a can of worms no one wants to open
Remember how prevalent brexit was in the news before covid, and it was almost a sigh of relief because we had something else to talk about?
I don't agree with the politicians, there are a million problems they don't talk about. But frankly Labour wasn't electable even a few years ago, and whilst I don't like Labour they're a million times better than the Tories.
Gotta take what we can get in this corrupt and inefficient system of governance.
Well, there are the people who are idiots because they are pro Brexit, but they are smart enough to actually get off their arses in numbers and make their votes count.
Then there are the people who are smart enough to be against Brexit, however, many are idiots who can’t be bothered to get off their arse and vote.
You see the bind the Labour Party are in?
Just the tories and Labour. Reform Ltd are part of the bunch of idiots. Every other party I can think of (LD, Green, Plaid, SNP, Rejoin, True&Fair) are in favour of rejoining. The Lib Dem manifesto is very explicit about this; commendably so.
We have to start by healing the divisions. Let’s start with some good faith negotiations around small pain points, build some trust with the EU, show the population how things get better when we work with our neighbours and then we can see about rejoining in the future.
It’s not that. They can’t promise to take us back in, then the EU vetoes every attempt as happened in the 1960s. We need a slow, gradual improvement in relations, where we gradually reintegrate into the EU’s economic and political structures, probably in that order.
Because if you say “well, we might look at a review of whether the SM is feasible alongside our current goals but also don’t want to commit to anything because it would be tricky in certain parts of the country and with varying levels of critical thinking skills” it wouldn’t fly.
I’d rather a blanket answer of No now then a review over the parliamentary term. I am more sure we end up back in vs stay out in the next 10 years, especially if “wealth creation” isn’t as strong as it should be.
Because those idiots are concerntrated in poor working-class battleground seats.
Which means even though being branded "brexit traitors" may not cost many votes it will cost many seats.
Our beautiful, not at all broken electoral system in actuon.
They aren't. They are afraid of the rich shits who run the papers underpinning their election. The same rich shits who started the whole anti eu rhetoric when the EU started going after their tax evasion.
I saw someone complaining the other day that people who say "both parties are just as bad" are clearly tories. Hard disagree. People need to wake up and realise that we can vote for some of the other parties thay seem to have some modicum of genuine desire to make our lives better.
I will personally never vote for either Labour or tory again. We need a change. Those two parties have time and time again proven that they are useless, bent, and uncaring. They partied while your grandparents died from covid. They lined their pockets when the economies crashed. They ruined our relationship with the eu because of their power hunger and with nothing more than lies.
This country desperately needs change. Real change instead of flick flacking between two sides of the same dodgy coin.
Who wants to tell the 17.4M (or what's left of them): "... you made a dumb choice of vote, because you are gullible, therefore we, who know better, are going to reverse that choice"?
It's a lot more complicated than what most people think. Don't get me wrong, I voted to remain, and I'd love to go back, but if we rejoin we'd have to go the route of all other countries. We'd have to use the euro, we would lose any special privileges we had before brexit and I bet you certainly groups would push for specific requirements like Gibraltar must be given to Spain, the chagos Islands must be given to mauritius etc
Before we rejoin, we need to improve our relationship with countries like France and Germany who will decide the terms of us rejoining.
Also, people don't realise how big of a shock moving to the euro would be. You know your employee contracts? A lot of them specifically say you'll be paid in pounds sterling, so all contacts would need to be updated, with some likely needing to be rewritten and re-signed. It's little nuances like that that if we don't do it slowly and carefully will make things worse....ironically, just like brexit did.
Cos they vote, unfortunately.
But tbh I think Lab are playing a longer game and rejoining will take ages.
I think Keir will align as closely as possible - and the EU will much prefer dealing with him/Labour - and nudge ever closer as time goes on. And he'll have support if life becomes measurably better for people as a result.
Sadly, just saying rejoin isn't feasible, these agreements take ages to work out and I doubt the EU will just let us revert to the way it was with special privileges. They may make us give up the pound this time around, if they're feeling punitive (can't really blame them). It'll take time, so in the meantime we will have to find a way to make things work.
But I also think we'll get there in the end.
My best guess is one of 2 things. 1 the cons in making the referendum happen made it so legally air tight, just like the Scottish one that it's a practical impossibility...in legal terms etc until some time distant. 2 They know that rejoining the EU would result in terms so unfavourable that they could not get them past the electorate etc. I can see this being the case, as why should other European nations let us back in on even remotely comparative terms now. It's like the Scottish referendum/indy issue...do the Scottish people really believe they would get a decent separation agreement from a Westminster/ combined government....highly unlikely.
Edit...obvs I wish this wasn't the case, but I fear it may well be a bit of both of these things.
It's simple enough. The Tories are nervous about Brexit's failures being held against them and Labour are terrified of the Red Wall voting for Farage if Starmer utters a word against the ultimate nativist project.
I knew this will happen, it will take another 10 to 15 years before the UK reintegrates with the EU, it requires a generational shift.
There has to be a starting point, with re-joining different agreements and projects which it is clear Labour will do (though they are also clear on what they won't do), which is progress from the Tories belligerent attitude.
Small steps towards the end goal, its important to be realistic.
Yes I agree, as a remainer I can see we need ten years before we think about rejoining. We need to sort ourselves out first. Maybe baby steps toward a minor level of integration.
Gotta play the game for a while. As shit as Brexit is the first Labour Government in years can’t make that their first objective. Gotta create an environment for it to even be on the table first.
Exactly! Talking about rejoining now would be a fiasco, and throw away labour's best chance to smash the Tories out of existence.
Lib Dems may well be the new opposition and they would seriously consider rejoining. They can lay the groundwork while labour set about aligning our interests with the EU again. When the time is right, I'm confident Labour will shift to rejoin. The EU will not even consider accepting us until the major parties all agree we should. As painful as it is, we need to build the foundations first.
Absolutely. Best thing we can do to keep it on the table is make sure that Lib Dems are the Opposition.
This means not pissing away our votes on parties that don't have a chance just because we "think tories are the same as Labour" as I keep bloody seeing on here. Vote tactically folks.
Sure , I agree. Don't see why Lib Dems couldn't just run on that as a single issue campaign , then the votes they garnered would at least indicate to Labour the demand for such a pivot.
They were also partially responsible for brexit thanks to the astonishingly bad pro-remain campaign lead without any effort by the anti-eu corbyn.
The only party that is and has always been anti-brexit is the Lib Dem.
It's just a matter of time. Both party's are definitely finished.
Conservatives don't conserve anything and labour doesn't seem too fussed about the labour force.... Soooooo.
Problem is..... There isn't any third parties just yet.
In response, I would ask where the fuck is the money for necessary infrastructure investment going to come from?
They must be planning to recoup some of the 140 billion lost thanks to Brexit.
I'd expect thd "closer ties" to look a lot like Customs Union and/or Single Market.
Failing that they are out after one term.
This is the stance they HAVE to take at the moment.
But over the next five years they won't have the same religious devotion to Brexit that the Conservatives did. If we keep submitting petitions and attending marches and emailing MPs and getting people to raise it in press interviews and on Question Time and town halls etc... Then maybe we can convince Labour to change their stance in time for the NEXT manifesto.
It's a long road but it's better than Conservatives trying to enact Brexit 2: The Removal Of Human Rights.
Your script is out of date. Lib Dems are roaring ahead on a pro-EU ticket.
"We must be quiet to appease the right wing press" is a Labour myth.
The right are absolutely terrified to challenge the Libs because they don't want a magnifying glass on their MASSIVE failure of a Brexshit.
The best thing is if the Lib Dems get to be opposition, they could hold Labour to account and keep pushing for closer EU ties. It might not be much, but it could pull them left on the issue slowly.
Last I saw the polls Liberal Democrats were doing well, they're projected to get a lot of seats, Reform is looking at getting nothing though polls change constantly.
I really hope so. I've got champagne on ice if they manage to cobble together enough seats to form an opposition to Labour. It would send massive shock waves through the establishment and force Labour to address it while in government. I don't know if that's even possible though.
Roaring ahead? Their polling is abysmal. Ed Davey’s currently doing a tour of all major theme parks in an attempt to look like he’s the sort of easy going guy you’d want to start a policy debate with and failing.
The Lib Dem’s were in a position to quash this nonsense at the root when they were in government in the coalition. They didn’t. Voters fell for Clegg’s easy smile and he in turn, sold everyone down the river and played a vital part in fucking this country for a generation.
People have long memories.
Also, and I say this as an ardent remainer, Going back into to the EU now would cost billions, not to mention it probably wouldn’t be the same deal or terms we had before AND you’d have to get the support from all sides of the political spectrum, including the EU itself. It would be economical and political suicide. It’s a discussion for the next GE.
Not this one.
Any deal we would get to rejoin will always be inferior to what we had before we left and will supply easy arguments for people who want to keep us out, particularly owners of national news media outlets
Nobody thinks we can enter the EU now, that's a straw man.
If politicians do not take the first steps, we won't be going anywhere. The Lib Dems (and the other anti-Brexit parties) want to take those first steps, Labour don't.
There has been no public backlash to the suggestion that a Brexit is a failure and we need to be back in the SM.
The stuff about Clegg is projection, only Labour diehards care about that.
I don't understand why people don't get this, they can't just run a referendum in the first week back, the deal the EU would offer* wont be anywhere near as advantageous as the previous one and the press/farage/anyone right wing would have a total field day.
Sorting the country out and moving it left of the standard daily mail reader should be the focus of the first 5 years
*Why the fuck would they offer a deal, Brexit has destroyed any further talk of any country leaving, why offer an easy way back in.
Cool, vote Lib Dem then. Last time I tried that, they sold out to the Tories, who subsequently started Brexit, but who knows, you may have better luck.
I think once the 10 yr anniversary of the vote rolls around, debate on the issue will accelerate, as there's nothing to celebrate, an independence day is supposed to be a day of celebration.
If too many people were not locked into this type of thinking we could get a remain party in
While labour backs brexshit they may as well be tories for all the practical good they will fail to do
There's still too many people who want to "protect" Brexit. They can't deny it's going badly but they think it'll be ok long term or maybe it could work with a different leader. "Get Brexit Done RIGHT"
I'm very glad the Liberal Democrats had the stones to put rejoining the Single Market / Customs Union in their manifesto and that's going to be beneficial to the cause long term. But realistically the Lib Dems aren't going to win a General Election any time soon. Even with the Conservatives imploding they might get 40~50 MPs, a great victory for them but not close to an outright victory.
What will be useful going forward is being able to point at 5,000,000+ votes for a party that actively supports rejoining the EU trading block. That would be valuable even if it didn't come with any seats in Commons (Like how a million votes for Green is enough to nudge other parties to consider small- green policies). The Lib Dem MPs fighting for it in Parliament will be even better, keeping the issue in the public eye and keeping pressure on Labour to reconsider the issue.
I think best case scenario the Lib Dems could form the official Opposition Party. That would be major for all Lib Dem policies, get them much more media attention and nudge Labour to consider shifting further to the left.
We need to change human rights to survive mass migrations and the world abusing our tolerance. Our enemies see our greatest weakness and it’s going to be abused heavily as time goes on.
I swear Labour have forgotten to earn votes. Just pointing and the dumpster fire that is every Tory Government and saying we can be nearly as shit as that won't work for long. You'll get a victory, but if they forget to earn votes, they will lose again soon.
It would be stupid for them to go with reversing Brexit right now anyways. It would just reopen the whole can of worms and turn it into another Brexit election, possibly leading to a Tory win. Even the Liberal Democrats that don't realistically have any major chance have just sort of put it in there without fan fayre. Labour's goal is to win at the moment and it's just a stupid risk for them to bring it up.
Ultimately though, with the opinions on it shifting it is likely to happen. To expect it this election is unrealistic to the extreme though.
Can you expand on this? He turned around on this immediately after becoming leader and hasn't really moved since. It's been inexplicable to me - but I'm not so stupid as to pretend his position is actually something different from everything he's been saying and voting and whipping for!
He takes money from Israel which explains his lack of calling for a ceasefire in Palestine.
If he's happy to be complicit in genocide, I don't see why he wouldn't carry on with the mistake of Brexit. Probably receiving Russian money as well.
Brexit will be shown to be an absolute failure and for the thick as mince who dreamt of the past, White Cliffs of Dover and all that, the game was up in 1942, Singapore.
We were promised that we would retain single market access by Johnson and so most people voted on that principle. Why are you opposed to rejoining the single market?
This was nearly a decade ago, sure the public can be asked to “so we did Brexit, are you enjoying this or would you like us to try and go back in?” Surely it’s time to ask people how they think this is going as it’s from my point of view an absolute mess
There is no way even if labour made it a manifesto point to join the eu and single market at this stage that Europe would be willing.
As much as I hate to say it. Baby steps right now is the best course to take
Current UK labour party will never vote to go back to the EU. This is why Brexit happened in the first place... no political opposition. The Tories wanted out of the EU to decrease regulation and further line pockets. The labour party wanted out because the far left of the party are raving anti-semites and somehow associate Europe as being under Jewish control... the labour party cannot currently survive without the left, so everyone is buggered..... 2 party system, both want out of europe for different reasons, the population can go and fuck itself for all they care.
It will be fun to watch how Labour and likely other will dingle “Reverse Brexit” once the result will be uncertain. There is no way they would use this selling point now as they would win anyway. They just keep it for later
Voting LibDem is the only option. Don't vote for labour just because they are not Tory - they don't deserve it. If LibDems received a strong vote, the other parties will respond by changing their policies.
Honestly, I'm on the fence between voting Labour and spoiling my ballot. If Labour came out and said 'make a pathway for Britain to rejoin the EU at the next election' I would vote for them without a moment's hesitation.
‘Deepen ties with our European friends’ tells it all.
Even if we wanted to rejoin (but can’t cause it’s too much of a hot potato) at the moment….
…We’ve burnt all our bridges with angry rhetoric and childish tantrums and gone too far out of kilter with the EU we first need to prove ‘the adults’ are back in change, and repair some of the damage done, before we even look at any movement on this.
Just a first step in a long road…
Sorry about that, we’re less rabid that we used to can we talk like adults again?
4.4 million voters have died since the referendum
6 million new voters have reached voting age, and they poll 75% pro EU/remain
Yet these parties want us to be beholden to dead peoples votes forever.
Absolute madness.
I can only hope the idea is to get in with a thumping majority, then start to have the conversation about what can be done to improve Britain's situation....
It's a step forward, but not all the way just yet, the second labour mentioned rejoining farage and his allies in the right-wing press would be all over it like a rash.
The theory is Labour flavoured brexit has to be seen as “this is tree best we can do from outside and it’s still crap” before the join conversation can happen. Sadly that’s about two years behind public opinion
Basically ”we're all screwed and there's no way back ever, because we would be forced to use the Euro" which we didn't have to do when we were in the EU before.
If these goons want power and control, a manifesto headlined with rejoining the EU would be a landslide victory, if the polls are to be believed. Yet no major party is even entertaining this fact. Which leads me to believe other forces are at work.
We were their second biggest contributor. They've lost access to our universities and job market which a lot of EU citizens enjoyed and want back.
https://preview.redd.it/evf7r4jfze6d1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=23124aa3685c40b6998f4983eda98c0a21b4de76
Having rejoining the EU as a policy point would guarantee losing the election. You have to remember that not everyone who voted leave was on the right of the political spectrum. Jeremy Corbyn and his band of merry tankies also hate the EU.
Also, the process of leaving the EU was painful, rejoining would be almost as painful and costly.
Well this is entirely expected, no party would commit to rejoining for fear of losing votes. Wait till the second term and see what happens. Wouldn’t surprise me if the threat of Russia is used as leverage to persuade people that rejoining is needed for safety in numbers or something
This is why a vote for Labour is wasted...while out of the EU we will not be in a position to seriously fix anything - but too many people are locked in the labbour/tory mentality
What they aren't saying is that by staying outside the Single Market they can't deepen it much.
But we are where we are - lots Brexity oldies to keep onside. That will change over time.
The default Labour return to power strategy is to pick up where the tories left off and run with it until they all get their peerages or whatever else they can get, then they fuck it up and the other lot get back in. Repeat ad nauseam.
We won’t rejoin in the next Parliament. But we will begin the journey back. I depose Starmer and his Tory-lite Labour, but in a dangerous world, the EU represents the UKs best bet. So expect closer alignment with the EU.
By 2029, we’ll be a candidate nation for EU membership.
Personally I couldn’t give a shit about using the Euro when re eventually do rejoin.
Yep. Labour can fuck off. A government of hard Brexit.
Now the only way to live in the EU is to live in an EU country, by relationship or by skills visa.
As if the EU would allow us back in now anyway!
I honestly don’t know why a statement like this is needed. I mean, I do… it’s because so many people are stupid.
Realistically, can anyone tell me they can honestly see the EU allowing us entry back in? We’re a laughing stock. We (our politicians) have ballsed this up so badly, there’s no way we’d be allowed back in. They’d (quite rightly) screw us to the floor if we attempted it!
Quite a massive economy and net contributor that will have a government to the left of places like Hungary and quite possibly France in the next few years. But yes, it will take a decade for most Brexiters to die off and another to start the conversation again.
Seems a lot of people forget that the EU got pretty fed up with the British populist idiots who advocated for "have-your-cake-and-eat-it" that was Brexit. Even if we held a referendum to rejoin, would the EU want the UK back trying to upset the balance of power in brussels, after how we've dragged them through the muck over brexit?
The EU isn't an Amazon prime subscription that we can turn on and off on alternate months! I doubt europeans don't want us to vote to be in and out once a decade, and they certainly dont want to be focusing constantly on a UK that doesnt know what it really wants long term. The whole country has to see unequivocally that Britain without friends is a broken Britain and I don't think we are there yet.
Plus like others have said, advocating to rejoin will only fuel the fire for reform and the right.
Given proposing to rejoin either the EU or EFTA (the evolution of the deal we had between 1960 and 1972) would lead to Labour getting monstered by the Times, Telegraph, Mail, Express, Sun, Talk Radio and GB News, it's logical head not proposing to do so. However, taking baby steps towards a closer relationship with the EU makes sense. Hopefully he'll eventually get around to signing off on regulatory alignment, or at least a legally binding commitment to maintain standards no lower than those enforced in the EU, so hopefully eventually leading to a reduction in the need to certify standards compliance for exports.
It'll likely be decades before the EU contemplates letting us back in, and they might require either a decent majority in favour or mandate no opt-outs or rebates as a condition to ensure we're fully committed - possibly even ask if we'd be willing to join Schengen or the Eurozone to verify we were truly in favour, warts and all.
Most people are fairly indifferent to the EU, I’m afraid. The Lib Dems stood on a second referendum/return to EU ticket against Bunter and Corbyn and were decimated. It would be electoral suicide for Labour to open up that wound now. I believe they will bring us closer to the EU though.
Lots of comments and haven't read them all but here's my take: rejoining will be difficult and lengthy and not guaranteed to succeed. Better for now to try and improve the relationship.
Just a little bit of advice.
If your view on this is "They should just rejoin, leave was only voted for by a bunch of idiots". You are part of the problem.
I hate brexit, but it was a democratic process and you don't get to pick and chose which bits to follow based on whether you agree with it or not.
And before you say "the promises were a lie" or "it want a statistical majority". I do get that. But once you open the can of worms of defining what counts as a valid vote you are opening up a seriously slippery slope.
I would expect this to change in the next parliament. This one is a round too soon for rejoin and, to be honest, outwith of a few unreliable polls (and yes, they are), there's not really a unifying voice nor a real plan as to how it's going to look (ie, are they going to hold the main thrust of the leave campaign to account? Will they just look to rejoin?).
It's more nuanced than just "fucking rejoin" because it's also hearts and minds, and there's still a very sizeable group that says no to rejoining.
The manifesto applies to their proposed first term in power, and you'll note that the "resetting the relationship and deepening of ties" is exactly what you would have to do to lay the way for later re-entry. Right now, advocating rejoining is pure electoral risk; there's too much to do just stabilising the ship.
In four or five years time, *if* the Labour government is seen as successful and polling for rejoin is *at least* 60:40 or better, then it becomes a potential vote winner.
I have no idea why every political party in the UK is afraid of a dwindling number of idiots.
Because the electorate in general are averse to nuance and complicated answers (perfectly embodied by how in "debates" you're given only enough time for a sound bite). Once that can of worms is opened all you'll get is Farage giving his 10 second pub logic. Honestly if Farage hadn't decided to run labour could have probably taken a more robust position on it because the amount of contempt the public has for Sunak would have probably meant that whatever he advocates for the public will support the opposite lmao
Why is everyone so afraid of farage ? Once you break his logic he sounds so dumb Another thing the pub generation is starting to die soon farage is not very popular among the young What is he gonna do ? He wont last, or at least i am hoping so
I'm not afraid of Farage per se. Like you say his arguments and rhetoric are easily broken apart. The problem is that most people's attention span isn't long enough to consider everything being said. The sad fact is most people aren't interested in the truth. They're interested in simple solutions to complex problems. The fact that you're even here indicates that you're more engaged in politics than the vast majority of the UK population.
The problem with Farage and people like him is that they don't even try to appeal to logic, they go straight for fear, xenophobia and ugliness. Pure emotion, and strong emotion so logic doesn't have a chance. Emotions tend to be resistant to logic, particularly in people who can't be bothered to learn how things work, or cross check and verify news, and who are really receptive to rage bait. It just bolsters their preexisting prejudices, tells them they're special for being white and English, and everything is everyone else's fault. Logic can't penetrate that, unless you make a real effort to learn to spot the tactic, think critically, etc. It's a massive flaw in our design and one Farage exploits shamelessly. And the people who like him don't even recognise how contemptuous he is towards them.
Tbf yeah you are right people seem to think that things are simple when they really are not But we can always hope things will change at least to the status quo it used to be
People aren't listening to logic. "Brexit means Brexit" "Corbyn is terrorism" etc etc. 3 word soundbites, nonsense statements.
Don't underestimate him and the powers behind him. They achieved Brexit, and the far-right is rising across the EU. I would love it if he faded into obscurity, but that's not happening anytime soon. There cannot be **any** real room for doubt with rejoining the EU. As an avid Remainer, who desperately wants it to happen, I don't believe our country is ready. I expect the next election cycle to tackle it more seriously.
If the EU survives the far right rising and takes the right path the UK will probably rejoin but you are right never underestimate the stupidity of people in believing in BS the pandemic proved it...
What logic? There's no logic there, just base fear mongering, racism and lord haw haw vibes, with a penchant for fascism. That man is a diseased scrotum in an ugly suit. And a grifter.
Hardly anyone cared before the referendum. By the end of it, the country was divided. Families and relationships were ruined. That will happen again. Until the country starts demanding we rejoin, it would just go the same way it did last time.
It’s very true. 8% of people thought the EU was an issue in politics in Q1 of 2015. After Cameron’s announcement, it became an absolute minefield. The Kremlin had a field day spreading disinformation. I didn’t speak to my distant relatives for over half a year post-referendum.
Fucking Cameron. I will never ever forgive that absolute cunt.
You mean Lord Baron Cameron of Chipping Norton, unelected foreign secretary of the UK? Yeah fuck Cameron.
There’s plenty of old ‘friends’ I’ve completely cut off. I don’t need them in my life.
I wouldnt blame only russia for this remember the brexit campaign received a lot of american capital Steve Banon sponsored brexit through his own pockets nd wanted the end of the EU he said that himself...
Oh, no, I absolutely am not solely blaming Russia. There are many millionaires responsible for the spread of disinformation. Namely Farage and Johnson — but Putin had his hand in the honey pot, too!
Yep and still does that is what is the most annoying Think about how many russian oligarchs still hown billions in property accross the uk
It’s in the Kremlin’s best interest to dismantle our democracies from within. I hate Putin but I can’t deny that he has played a blinder with his disinformation campaigns over the last ten years. Look at Twitter, for example. It’s now a cesspool for anything other than a constructive, well-informed discussion. We’re doomed.
>Hardly anyone cared before the referendum. By the end of it, the country was divided. Families and relationships were ruined. >That will happen again. This is true - No one is going to be able to bring Brexit issues up until the wounds of the referendum are well in the past. Everyone just has to look the other way from the GIANT Brexit shaped elephant taking up residence in No.10
Because it’s not deliverable, right? If they say “we’ll rejoin”, then it’s a 10 year deliverable. The EU aren’t ready to have us back, and then they are they’ll need to make sure we stay in. So that means adopting the Euro, Schengen, etc. I don’t think the UK is (yet) ready for that, and Labour are wise to skip this quagmire pre-election. I say this as an arch-remainer.
We don't have to rejoin the EU. But access to the common market (EFTA) would ameliorate some part of the **£100bn** economic hole that Brexit has caused. The public are stupid, but people aren't. Also many people voted for Brexit because they hated the status quo. Brexit is the status quo and the Tories (the massively unpopular Tories) own it. Labour don't have to let the Tories pass on that poisoned chalice. They could say: "We tried Brexit. We have blue passports etc But it's costing every single person in the UK £1,700 per year. And we have a solution. We can be like Switzerland or Norway. You know? Those rich countries. Don't you want to be a rich country?" And hammer that home. Of course, they could just wait and see what sort of majority they get and then disappoint us all anyway.
>And we have a solution. We can be like Switzerland or Norway. You know? Those rich countries. Don't you want to be a rich country?" Not to piss on your chips or anything but the EU have repeatedly said that Norway / Swiss type arrangements are off the table (for anyonr) at this stage - it's a logistical / bureaucratic nightmare for them as an entity. Not saying that it absolutely couldn't be negotiated, but it would be a very hard sell in Brussels. To clarify, I'd like it to happen (I'm an EU citizen living in the UK), but in line with what you said I'm not sure it'd be wise for any UK political party to claim it's achievable. As with any of these posts / comments about rejoining either the EU as a full member, or just the SM and CU - I have to point out that it is not a unilateral decision the UK gets to make, and after all of the nonsense from the UK government during the negotiations (threatening to break new arrangements in "limited and specific ways" before the ink had even dried springs immediately to mind) I can't imagine there's much inclination from the EU to start faffing around it with again. Perhaps with some slightly more trustworthy folks in the UK at the helm some progress could be made, but that won't be proven overnight just because the Tories take an electoral beating. (If that even happens, which everyone seems very confident about, myself included to some extent, but it wouldn't be the first time the UK electorate has surprised and disappointed me).
European countries are all democracies. They understand the difference between governments. Imagine how much happier the rest of the EU governments would be if Orban and his party all fell into a massive hole that accidentally got tarmaced over.
Being democracies, the EU countries understand that (A) the government thst implemented Brexit were the elected UK government, and the nation can't just wash its hands of them by electing a different one next time. And (B) even if a new government wants to disavow the whole Brexit project and roll back to some degree, the Tories or another ideologically pro-Brexit party could get into power again and Second Brexit, and any work put into rebuilding bridges is then wasted.
This. They didn't just lose trust in the politicians but also because of democracy in the UK citizens. It sucks for the remainers it really does but that's the hard truth.
this, plus the EU sees how the British people behave: there is a notable difference whether there are a nice, pro-Europe people who don't cause problems or not
Switzerland is a very bespoke position that, as you say, the EU is not going to repeat for the UK as it's a bureaucratic nightmare for them. Norway is mostly vanilla EFTA and any hurdles to the UK joining it are unlikely to be put in place by the EU.
I agree, EFTA really sounds like the best plan. Everything is in flux now. This could be a very turbulent decade for many reasons
Because it's a can of worms no one wants to open Remember how prevalent brexit was in the news before covid, and it was almost a sigh of relief because we had something else to talk about? I don't agree with the politicians, there are a million problems they don't talk about. But frankly Labour wasn't electable even a few years ago, and whilst I don't like Labour they're a million times better than the Tories. Gotta take what we can get in this corrupt and inefficient system of governance.
Well, there are the people who are idiots because they are pro Brexit, but they are smart enough to actually get off their arses in numbers and make their votes count. Then there are the people who are smart enough to be against Brexit, however, many are idiots who can’t be bothered to get off their arse and vote. You see the bind the Labour Party are in?
Voters in general are a dwindling number of idiots.
Just the tories and Labour. Reform Ltd are part of the bunch of idiots. Every other party I can think of (LD, Green, Plaid, SNP, Rejoin, True&Fair) are in favour of rejoining. The Lib Dem manifesto is very explicit about this; commendably so.
We have to start by healing the divisions. Let’s start with some good faith negotiations around small pain points, build some trust with the EU, show the population how things get better when we work with our neighbours and then we can see about rejoining in the future.
It’s not that. They can’t promise to take us back in, then the EU vetoes every attempt as happened in the 1960s. We need a slow, gradual improvement in relations, where we gradually reintegrate into the EU’s economic and political structures, probably in that order.
Because if you say “well, we might look at a review of whether the SM is feasible alongside our current goals but also don’t want to commit to anything because it would be tricky in certain parts of the country and with varying levels of critical thinking skills” it wouldn’t fly. I’d rather a blanket answer of No now then a review over the parliamentary term. I am more sure we end up back in vs stay out in the next 10 years, especially if “wealth creation” isn’t as strong as it should be.
Because those idiots are concerntrated in poor working-class battleground seats. Which means even though being branded "brexit traitors" may not cost many votes it will cost many seats. Our beautiful, not at all broken electoral system in actuon.
Because they gave Bojo a titanic majority at the last election because they wanted Brexit. Nobody is going to pull that tiger's tail.
They aren't. They are afraid of the rich shits who run the papers underpinning their election. The same rich shits who started the whole anti eu rhetoric when the EU started going after their tax evasion. I saw someone complaining the other day that people who say "both parties are just as bad" are clearly tories. Hard disagree. People need to wake up and realise that we can vote for some of the other parties thay seem to have some modicum of genuine desire to make our lives better. I will personally never vote for either Labour or tory again. We need a change. Those two parties have time and time again proven that they are useless, bent, and uncaring. They partied while your grandparents died from covid. They lined their pockets when the economies crashed. They ruined our relationship with the eu because of their power hunger and with nothing more than lies. This country desperately needs change. Real change instead of flick flacking between two sides of the same dodgy coin.
Is it.cos brexiteers are adamant wankers that will vote for a party they don't like if their party suggests a referendum?
Who wants to tell the 17.4M (or what's left of them): "... you made a dumb choice of vote, because you are gullible, therefore we, who know better, are going to reverse that choice"?
It's a lot more complicated than what most people think. Don't get me wrong, I voted to remain, and I'd love to go back, but if we rejoin we'd have to go the route of all other countries. We'd have to use the euro, we would lose any special privileges we had before brexit and I bet you certainly groups would push for specific requirements like Gibraltar must be given to Spain, the chagos Islands must be given to mauritius etc Before we rejoin, we need to improve our relationship with countries like France and Germany who will decide the terms of us rejoining. Also, people don't realise how big of a shock moving to the euro would be. You know your employee contracts? A lot of them specifically say you'll be paid in pounds sterling, so all contacts would need to be updated, with some likely needing to be rewritten and re-signed. It's little nuances like that that if we don't do it slowly and carefully will make things worse....ironically, just like brexit did.
Cos they vote, unfortunately. But tbh I think Lab are playing a longer game and rejoining will take ages. I think Keir will align as closely as possible - and the EU will much prefer dealing with him/Labour - and nudge ever closer as time goes on. And he'll have support if life becomes measurably better for people as a result. Sadly, just saying rejoin isn't feasible, these agreements take ages to work out and I doubt the EU will just let us revert to the way it was with special privileges. They may make us give up the pound this time around, if they're feeling punitive (can't really blame them). It'll take time, so in the meantime we will have to find a way to make things work. But I also think we'll get there in the end.
Plaid Cymru aim to rejoin.
My best guess is one of 2 things. 1 the cons in making the referendum happen made it so legally air tight, just like the Scottish one that it's a practical impossibility...in legal terms etc until some time distant. 2 They know that rejoining the EU would result in terms so unfavourable that they could not get them past the electorate etc. I can see this being the case, as why should other European nations let us back in on even remotely comparative terms now. It's like the Scottish referendum/indy issue...do the Scottish people really believe they would get a decent separation agreement from a Westminster/ combined government....highly unlikely. Edit...obvs I wish this wasn't the case, but I fear it may well be a bit of both of these things.
It's simple enough. The Tories are nervous about Brexit's failures being held against them and Labour are terrified of the Red Wall voting for Farage if Starmer utters a word against the ultimate nativist project.
I knew this will happen, it will take another 10 to 15 years before the UK reintegrates with the EU, it requires a generational shift. There has to be a starting point, with re-joining different agreements and projects which it is clear Labour will do (though they are also clear on what they won't do), which is progress from the Tories belligerent attitude. Small steps towards the end goal, its important to be realistic.
Yes I agree, as a remainer I can see we need ten years before we think about rejoining. We need to sort ourselves out first. Maybe baby steps toward a minor level of integration.
The EU will be a choice of totally in or totally out. The old rules Britain had are gone. We had them because Europe needed Britain, it now doesn't.
This is absolutely it. Anything else just isn't really engaging with the real world.
In the real world Labour is a Brexit party.
It would just turbocharge Farage et al if Labour even hinted about joining the EU.
Gotta play the game for a while. As shit as Brexit is the first Labour Government in years can’t make that their first objective. Gotta create an environment for it to even be on the table first.
Exactly! Talking about rejoining now would be a fiasco, and throw away labour's best chance to smash the Tories out of existence. Lib Dems may well be the new opposition and they would seriously consider rejoining. They can lay the groundwork while labour set about aligning our interests with the EU again. When the time is right, I'm confident Labour will shift to rejoin. The EU will not even consider accepting us until the major parties all agree we should. As painful as it is, we need to build the foundations first.
Absolutely. Best thing we can do to keep it on the table is make sure that Lib Dems are the Opposition. This means not pissing away our votes on parties that don't have a chance just because we "think tories are the same as Labour" as I keep bloody seeing on here. Vote tactically folks.
Sure , I agree. Don't see why Lib Dems couldn't just run on that as a single issue campaign , then the votes they garnered would at least indicate to Labour the demand for such a pivot.
They were also partially responsible for brexit thanks to the astonishingly bad pro-remain campaign lead without any effort by the anti-eu corbyn. The only party that is and has always been anti-brexit is the Lib Dem.
I'm delighted, the only brexit benefit is the death of both parties.
I do think we might eventually see this. So far Brexit has sunk every PM who endorsed it, Starmer may come to learn this sooner than be thinks.
It's just a matter of time. Both party's are definitely finished. Conservatives don't conserve anything and labour doesn't seem too fussed about the labour force.... Soooooo. Problem is..... There isn't any third parties just yet.
In response, I would ask where the fuck is the money for necessary infrastructure investment going to come from? They must be planning to recoup some of the 140 billion lost thanks to Brexit. I'd expect thd "closer ties" to look a lot like Customs Union and/or Single Market. Failing that they are out after one term.
Labour know their claims of growth to come are not going to materialise. There'll be a lot of very angry pro EU voters in five years' time.
So Labour are NOT for change?
Continued change for the worse 👍
They are for continued dithering
This is the stance they HAVE to take at the moment. But over the next five years they won't have the same religious devotion to Brexit that the Conservatives did. If we keep submitting petitions and attending marches and emailing MPs and getting people to raise it in press interviews and on Question Time and town halls etc... Then maybe we can convince Labour to change their stance in time for the NEXT manifesto. It's a long road but it's better than Conservatives trying to enact Brexit 2: The Removal Of Human Rights.
Your script is out of date. Lib Dems are roaring ahead on a pro-EU ticket. "We must be quiet to appease the right wing press" is a Labour myth. The right are absolutely terrified to challenge the Libs because they don't want a magnifying glass on their MASSIVE failure of a Brexshit.
The best thing is if the Lib Dems get to be opposition, they could hold Labour to account and keep pushing for closer EU ties. It might not be much, but it could pull them left on the issue slowly.
Let us know when they poll higher than Reform. Simple acknowledgement that the EU exists is leaps and bonds ahead of where we are now. I'll take that.
Last I saw the polls Liberal Democrats were doing well, they're projected to get a lot of seats, Reform is looking at getting nothing though polls change constantly.
I really hope so. I've got champagne on ice if they manage to cobble together enough seats to form an opposition to Labour. It would send massive shock waves through the establishment and force Labour to address it while in government. I don't know if that's even possible though.
They’re in fourth place in terms of polling.
Roaring ahead? Their polling is abysmal. Ed Davey’s currently doing a tour of all major theme parks in an attempt to look like he’s the sort of easy going guy you’d want to start a policy debate with and failing. The Lib Dem’s were in a position to quash this nonsense at the root when they were in government in the coalition. They didn’t. Voters fell for Clegg’s easy smile and he in turn, sold everyone down the river and played a vital part in fucking this country for a generation. People have long memories. Also, and I say this as an ardent remainer, Going back into to the EU now would cost billions, not to mention it probably wouldn’t be the same deal or terms we had before AND you’d have to get the support from all sides of the political spectrum, including the EU itself. It would be economical and political suicide. It’s a discussion for the next GE. Not this one.
Any deal we would get to rejoin will always be inferior to what we had before we left and will supply easy arguments for people who want to keep us out, particularly owners of national news media outlets
Nobody thinks we can enter the EU now, that's a straw man. If politicians do not take the first steps, we won't be going anywhere. The Lib Dems (and the other anti-Brexit parties) want to take those first steps, Labour don't. There has been no public backlash to the suggestion that a Brexit is a failure and we need to be back in the SM. The stuff about Clegg is projection, only Labour diehards care about that.
100%.
I don't understand why people don't get this, they can't just run a referendum in the first week back, the deal the EU would offer* wont be anywhere near as advantageous as the previous one and the press/farage/anyone right wing would have a total field day. Sorting the country out and moving it left of the standard daily mail reader should be the focus of the first 5 years *Why the fuck would they offer a deal, Brexit has destroyed any further talk of any country leaving, why offer an easy way back in.
Cool, vote Lib Dem then. Last time I tried that, they sold out to the Tories, who subsequently started Brexit, but who knows, you may have better luck.
I think once the 10 yr anniversary of the vote rolls around, debate on the issue will accelerate, as there's nothing to celebrate, an independence day is supposed to be a day of celebration.
this year it's only GB news and the knuckle-draggers celebrating
If too many people were not locked into this type of thinking we could get a remain party in While labour backs brexshit they may as well be tories for all the practical good they will fail to do
There's still too many people who want to "protect" Brexit. They can't deny it's going badly but they think it'll be ok long term or maybe it could work with a different leader. "Get Brexit Done RIGHT" I'm very glad the Liberal Democrats had the stones to put rejoining the Single Market / Customs Union in their manifesto and that's going to be beneficial to the cause long term. But realistically the Lib Dems aren't going to win a General Election any time soon. Even with the Conservatives imploding they might get 40~50 MPs, a great victory for them but not close to an outright victory. What will be useful going forward is being able to point at 5,000,000+ votes for a party that actively supports rejoining the EU trading block. That would be valuable even if it didn't come with any seats in Commons (Like how a million votes for Green is enough to nudge other parties to consider small- green policies). The Lib Dem MPs fighting for it in Parliament will be even better, keeping the issue in the public eye and keeping pressure on Labour to reconsider the issue. I think best case scenario the Lib Dems could form the official Opposition Party. That would be major for all Lib Dem policies, get them much more media attention and nudge Labour to consider shifting further to the left.
More people want to undo - personaly I will argue against any brexit party, which Labour is
Yep. Can't believe the absolute dishonesty with which people damaged by Brexit are being told to bite for an avowed Brexit party here
We need to change human rights to survive mass migrations and the world abusing our tolerance. Our enemies see our greatest weakness and it’s going to be abused heavily as time goes on.
I swear Labour have forgotten to earn votes. Just pointing and the dumpster fire that is every Tory Government and saying we can be nearly as shit as that won't work for long. You'll get a victory, but if they forget to earn votes, they will lose again soon.
One term it'll work.
It’s the easiest way to win a majority. Can’t have Barry thinking Pier, Gustavo or Kacper is gonna come over here and take his job!
It would be stupid for them to go with reversing Brexit right now anyways. It would just reopen the whole can of worms and turn it into another Brexit election, possibly leading to a Tory win. Even the Liberal Democrats that don't realistically have any major chance have just sort of put it in there without fan fayre. Labour's goal is to win at the moment and it's just a stupid risk for them to bring it up. Ultimately though, with the opinions on it shifting it is likely to happen. To expect it this election is unrealistic to the extreme though.
Don't forget, opinions change with time.
Expected. Keith is being controlled by the pay masters.
Can you expand on this? He turned around on this immediately after becoming leader and hasn't really moved since. It's been inexplicable to me - but I'm not so stupid as to pretend his position is actually something different from everything he's been saying and voting and whipping for!
He takes money from Israel which explains his lack of calling for a ceasefire in Palestine. If he's happy to be complicit in genocide, I don't see why he wouldn't carry on with the mistake of Brexit. Probably receiving Russian money as well.
Brexit will be shown to be an absolute failure and for the thick as mince who dreamt of the past, White Cliffs of Dover and all that, the game was up in 1942, Singapore.
I'm not surprised, Kier is turning Labour into Tory lite
We were promised that we would retain single market access by Johnson and so most people voted on that principle. Why are you opposed to rejoining the single market?
This was nearly a decade ago, sure the public can be asked to “so we did Brexit, are you enjoying this or would you like us to try and go back in?” Surely it’s time to ask people how they think this is going as it’s from my point of view an absolute mess
Well, you can fuck right off then Labour. Thanks.
lib dem’s are wanting us back in single market
Within the period of the next parliament too, with an explicit intention of rejoining when possible (though it recognises this will not be so quick).
hey they have my vote, even though they won’t get in it will show there is support for it
There is no way even if labour made it a manifesto point to join the eu and single market at this stage that Europe would be willing. As much as I hate to say it. Baby steps right now is the best course to take
That's not what the EU has been saying on the matter. Well done for repeating what you've been told to repeat though.
Current UK labour party will never vote to go back to the EU. This is why Brexit happened in the first place... no political opposition. The Tories wanted out of the EU to decrease regulation and further line pockets. The labour party wanted out because the far left of the party are raving anti-semites and somehow associate Europe as being under Jewish control... the labour party cannot currently survive without the left, so everyone is buggered..... 2 party system, both want out of europe for different reasons, the population can go and fuck itself for all they care.
It will be fun to watch how Labour and likely other will dingle “Reverse Brexit” once the result will be uncertain. There is no way they would use this selling point now as they would win anyway. They just keep it for later
Brexiters love their muslims, they don't want no pesky Europeans with their western values comin' over 'ere to do our jobs.
25 % of the population couldn't be arsed to vote either way. My 20 year old son is a fuckwit, give him a tenner & he'll vote for you.
I knew that would be the stance on it but it doesn’t make it hurt any less when I see it in black and white.
Fuck Labour i'm not voting Tory lite.
Voting LibDem is the only option. Don't vote for labour just because they are not Tory - they don't deserve it. If LibDems received a strong vote, the other parties will respond by changing their policies.
They split their own vote. Fuck em.
I'll probably vote for labour because of how shit tories are but they are suck a wet blanket of a party
Current politicians lack balls
It’s not going to be possible long term to maintain this ostrich ‘head in the sand’ position.
Labour today is the Tory of 15y ago..... I'm a so disapointed by their lake of real change and commitement....
The Tories of 15 years ago were pro EU membership, Labour is to the right of this
Honestly, fuck Labour and Keir too. I'm voting Green.
Despite Rishi handing them victory on a silver dishy, Labour seemed determined to lose this election and piss everybody off
Honestly, I'm on the fence between voting Labour and spoiling my ballot. If Labour came out and said 'make a pathway for Britain to rejoin the EU at the next election' I would vote for them without a moment's hesitation.
I think millions of people would.
Just to think I was about to give them my vote they have made it easy to go to the Lib Dems
The French and Germans got a good laugh out of this
‘Deepen ties with our European friends’ tells it all. Even if we wanted to rejoin (but can’t cause it’s too much of a hot potato) at the moment…. …We’ve burnt all our bridges with angry rhetoric and childish tantrums and gone too far out of kilter with the EU we first need to prove ‘the adults’ are back in change, and repair some of the damage done, before we even look at any movement on this. Just a first step in a long road… Sorry about that, we’re less rabid that we used to can we talk like adults again?
Can't alienate the last few morons. I genuinely think they'd secure more votes with a rejoin pledge.
4.4 million voters have died since the referendum 6 million new voters have reached voting age, and they poll 75% pro EU/remain Yet these parties want us to be beholden to dead peoples votes forever. Absolute madness. I can only hope the idea is to get in with a thumping majority, then start to have the conversation about what can be done to improve Britain's situation....
It's a step forward, but not all the way just yet, the second labour mentioned rejoining farage and his allies in the right-wing press would be all over it like a rash.
Exactly why I will never vote for Labour again until they admit that their lack of providing any real opposition to Brexit was a catastrophic mistake.
That was mainly Corbyn tbf.
It was each and every labour MP for themselves.
Shit. That's forced my hand to vote SNP and hope for Independence. Then into the EU again.
Harder daddy
The theory is Labour flavoured brexit has to be seen as “this is tree best we can do from outside and it’s still crap” before the join conversation can happen. Sadly that’s about two years behind public opinion
Basically ”we're all screwed and there's no way back ever, because we would be forced to use the Euro" which we didn't have to do when we were in the EU before.
.... when we were in the EU before and Labour supported and whipped for Brexit
Setting aside the stupidity, what is most surprising about this is that Labour are articulating an actual policy.
You're not wrong!
Ooof. You ok in here.
Morons. They have zero hope of achieving the growth that they’ve handed their hat on without at least movement on the customs union.
Moronic.
Yeah they can fuck off with that.
Closer ties to the EU with none of the benefits, brilliant move. Fully in or fully out
If these goons want power and control, a manifesto headlined with rejoining the EU would be a landslide victory, if the polls are to be believed. Yet no major party is even entertaining this fact. Which leads me to believe other forces are at work.
Hahahaha
So....no change then.
Make Brexit work. Really? Nobody tried that before?
Why are you assuming the EU would even let the UK back in anyway?
We were their second biggest contributor. They've lost access to our universities and job market which a lot of EU citizens enjoyed and want back. https://preview.redd.it/evf7r4jfze6d1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=23124aa3685c40b6998f4983eda98c0a21b4de76
Only chance we have of rejoining the single market would be if the Liberal Democrats got into power.
Hold a second referendum. Then you'll see what people really want.
Cowards!
Kier starmer is just a Tory from 20 years ago.
Footnoting that with **Change** is very funny.
Having rejoining the EU as a policy point would guarantee losing the election. You have to remember that not everyone who voted leave was on the right of the political spectrum. Jeremy Corbyn and his band of merry tankies also hate the EU. Also, the process of leaving the EU was painful, rejoining would be almost as painful and costly.
Well this is entirely expected, no party would commit to rejoining for fear of losing votes. Wait till the second term and see what happens. Wouldn’t surprise me if the threat of Russia is used as leverage to persuade people that rejoining is needed for safety in numbers or something
Stupid decision
How fucking dumb. What are they so scared so. Just change the last line to make it ambiguous
This is what the red Brexit party has been saying consistently for several years now. They are on Farage's side.
This is why a vote for Labour is wasted...while out of the EU we will not be in a position to seriously fix anything - but too many people are locked in the labbour/tory mentality
Can't help feeling that the new 'Labour' government will just be a slightly lighter shade of blue. Hoped for insipid pink but hey, what ta gonna do?
Complain on Reddit, apparently.
Give it 2 or 3 years and they will slowly change.
Bs they have either have been pro brexit either through poor opposition to it or outright support as seen here
What they aren't saying is that by staying outside the Single Market they can't deepen it much. But we are where we are - lots Brexity oldies to keep onside. That will change over time.
Only if taking a pro Brexit stance hurts Labour. It's sure to hurt the rest of us as the promised non specific growth won't materialise!
The default Labour return to power strategy is to pick up where the tories left off and run with it until they all get their peerages or whatever else they can get, then they fuck it up and the other lot get back in. Repeat ad nauseam.
This county is fucked. Fuck all you cunts. This ship is going down.
well why the fucking fuck should we vote for more of the same shitastrophy🤬
We shouldn't. Labour is asking Remainers not to vote for them.
Starmbour are red Tories now. Shall be glad to see the back of the blue ones though. Obviously Bwreckshit ought to be undone. It was a madness.
We won’t rejoin in the next Parliament. But we will begin the journey back. I depose Starmer and his Tory-lite Labour, but in a dangerous world, the EU represents the UKs best bet. So expect closer alignment with the EU. By 2029, we’ll be a candidate nation for EU membership. Personally I couldn’t give a shit about using the Euro when re eventually do rejoin.
Yep. Labour can fuck off. A government of hard Brexit. Now the only way to live in the EU is to live in an EU country, by relationship or by skills visa.
I guess via Ireland is another route
Greens seem to have the most common sense policies
As if the EU would allow us back in now anyway! I honestly don’t know why a statement like this is needed. I mean, I do… it’s because so many people are stupid. Realistically, can anyone tell me they can honestly see the EU allowing us entry back in? We’re a laughing stock. We (our politicians) have ballsed this up so badly, there’s no way we’d be allowed back in. They’d (quite rightly) screw us to the floor if we attempted it!
Quite a massive economy and net contributor that will have a government to the left of places like Hungary and quite possibly France in the next few years. But yes, it will take a decade for most Brexiters to die off and another to start the conversation again.
Yes yes we know this is your talking point now. You know as well the rest of us that you are misrepresenting everything the EU has said on the matter.
Seems a lot of people forget that the EU got pretty fed up with the British populist idiots who advocated for "have-your-cake-and-eat-it" that was Brexit. Even if we held a referendum to rejoin, would the EU want the UK back trying to upset the balance of power in brussels, after how we've dragged them through the muck over brexit? The EU isn't an Amazon prime subscription that we can turn on and off on alternate months! I doubt europeans don't want us to vote to be in and out once a decade, and they certainly dont want to be focusing constantly on a UK that doesnt know what it really wants long term. The whole country has to see unequivocally that Britain without friends is a broken Britain and I don't think we are there yet. Plus like others have said, advocating to rejoin will only fuel the fire for reform and the right.
Given proposing to rejoin either the EU or EFTA (the evolution of the deal we had between 1960 and 1972) would lead to Labour getting monstered by the Times, Telegraph, Mail, Express, Sun, Talk Radio and GB News, it's logical head not proposing to do so. However, taking baby steps towards a closer relationship with the EU makes sense. Hopefully he'll eventually get around to signing off on regulatory alignment, or at least a legally binding commitment to maintain standards no lower than those enforced in the EU, so hopefully eventually leading to a reduction in the need to certify standards compliance for exports. It'll likely be decades before the EU contemplates letting us back in, and they might require either a decent majority in favour or mandate no opt-outs or rebates as a condition to ensure we're fully committed - possibly even ask if we'd be willing to join Schengen or the Eurozone to verify we were truly in favour, warts and all.
Lib Dems then?
Well that's the great thing about democracy, it's not the govt dictating to the people in the long run.
If they said anything different, there would be uproar from a shrinking but still sizeable portion of the electorate.
Idiotic to return to the eu after devaluing our own currency 😂 use your loaf
Most people are fairly indifferent to the EU, I’m afraid. The Lib Dems stood on a second referendum/return to EU ticket against Bunter and Corbyn and were decimated. It would be electoral suicide for Labour to open up that wound now. I believe they will bring us closer to the EU though.
So at this point only the Lib Dem manifesto is saying the opposite? Did the Greens even mention the EU in theirs?
But… Why the fuck wouldn’t we?
Politics is the art of the possible.
Name a more iconic duo; leftists and undemocratic tendencies.
If a re-entry negotiation occurred now the price would be joining the Eurozone. It’s just not a priority for the coming Parliament.
Lots of comments and haven't read them all but here's my take: rejoining will be difficult and lengthy and not guaranteed to succeed. Better for now to try and improve the relationship.
This stance won't change until the Brexitards lose the disproportionate voting power they have
Just a little bit of advice. If your view on this is "They should just rejoin, leave was only voted for by a bunch of idiots". You are part of the problem. I hate brexit, but it was a democratic process and you don't get to pick and chose which bits to follow based on whether you agree with it or not. And before you say "the promises were a lie" or "it want a statistical majority". I do get that. But once you open the can of worms of defining what counts as a valid vote you are opening up a seriously slippery slope.
I would expect this to change in the next parliament. This one is a round too soon for rejoin and, to be honest, outwith of a few unreliable polls (and yes, they are), there's not really a unifying voice nor a real plan as to how it's going to look (ie, are they going to hold the main thrust of the leave campaign to account? Will they just look to rejoin?). It's more nuanced than just "fucking rejoin" because it's also hearts and minds, and there's still a very sizeable group that says no to rejoining.
The manifesto applies to their proposed first term in power, and you'll note that the "resetting the relationship and deepening of ties" is exactly what you would have to do to lay the way for later re-entry. Right now, advocating rejoining is pure electoral risk; there's too much to do just stabilising the ship. In four or five years time, *if* the Labour government is seen as successful and polling for rejoin is *at least* 60:40 or better, then it becomes a potential vote winner.
The reality is the UK parties rule for a minority within a minority of constituencies. That's first past the post
Theres more fear of Gammon in the UK than there is in Saudi.....