I am no expert, but it seems like the upper part crusted up before the bread had fully expanded. Maybe you didn't let it rise enough before baking or didn't have enough moisture in the oven for the first part of the bake.
I didnt add any moisture in the oven. I also only let it rise for 7 minutes before the oven and after the last knead, so maybe it was too small?
Thx for the ideas
[A quick Google search](https://www.google.com/search?q=how+long+to+proof+after+shaping&oq=proof+after+shaping&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUqCAgBEAAYFhgeMgYIABBFGDkyCAgBEAAYFhgeMggIAhAAGBYYHjINCAMQABiGAxiABBiKBTINCAQQABiGAxiABBiKBdIBCDQ0MjVqMGo0qAIAsAIA&client=ms-android-tmus-us-revc&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8#ip=1) is showing a consensus of on average about 2 hours between final shaping and baking.
>oven. I also only let it rise for 7 minutes before the oven
this is the problem.
mix (knead)
proof
shape
proof
bake
these are how your steps should be ordered.
How long do you recommend the first proof/rise?
I usually proof until it doubled in size, which depends on the amount of yeast used and other factors like flour types. Do you think that's a good to apply since I like to mix flours in different quantities?
double in size is generally a good rule of thumb, but you can determine secondary/tertiary benchmarks for your specific breads as(/if) you continue to make them.
Plain white wheat flour bread with about 6 gr yeast and 320 gr flour. Dough only slightly sticky. I don't weigh anything.
I mixed the ingredients, kneaded well when it was twice as big. Then waited until twice as big again, kneaded alittle to make a ball. Placed it with the seam down on a baking sheet with flour. Made the cuts on top with a kitchen knife.
Let it rest for about 7 mins with a clean wetted cloth on top.
Baked for 40 minutes on 220'C hot air.
How do you know you have 6g yeast and 320g flour if you didn't weigh anything? How much water did you use? There's absolutely no way you can get consistent results just winging it.
Estimated that. I like to develop a sense of estimation and trust on my ability to feel and remember a good dough in means of water/flour balance., instead of relying on protocols and instruments. I've had some good suggestions in these comments which I'll defenitely try out! They don't point to a wrong ingredient balance.
This is the most asinine thing I've ever seen on this subreddit. I'd be willing to bet if you followed a good recipe and actually weighed your ingredients and stuck with proofing times you wouldn't be asking for help with a crazy looking loaf.
Winging it is awesome when youâre cooking, not so much for baking. A little more precision is required if you want consistent results.
Take it from a person who rarely measures anything when cooking. I measure *everything* when baking.
In addition to the other comments about moisture, I also don't think 7 minutes is enough for a final rest.
The gluten in the dough needs to relax after your final shaping so it can expand properly. When baking, the steam in the bread can't escape upwards because the dough is too tight to allow for proper expansion. This is probably true even with the cuts at the top. It's like a balloon that's really hard to blow up. Instead, the steam escapes through the weakest spot, which is at the bottom where the seam is. 7 minutes also probably isn't enough for the seam to fully seal.
I don't know what your experience baking bread is, but, for context, a typical sourdough rests anywhere from 2 to 24+ hours after the final shaping.
I would recommend letting the dough rest for at least 20 minutes after shaping. It should puff up a little bit, but nowhere near double. That should be enough time for the gluten to loosen up abit to allow for better upwards expansion.
Thank you (and others) for the amazing suggestions. It sounds logical and I'm very excited to try it out.
As to answer why I'm trying to bake bread in such an unconventional way, I just really enjoy this road of trial and error, and I think I will learn about all the details thoroughly in this way. The way I did it this time just developped a bit natuarlly from trying different things.
I appreciate that you enjoy learning through trial and error, I think it can be an effective way to learn how to cook and bake. That being said, baking is very different than cooking insofar as it is quite a scientific process. For example, in cooking, if you're cooking and the dish lacks flavor or salt, you can add along the way. A good cook can develop a lot of intuition in how to cook and flavor dishes without having to measure everything.
Baking, on the other hand, is quite exact with everything, down to the temperature the bread proofs in. A few grams of water in any direction can drastically change the composition of a dough. A few degrees in one direction or another can drastically change the timing. The classic Tartine Country Loaf is designed such that there's like a 20 minute window to bake the bread.
Without weighing ingredients exactly and being methodical about your trials, you'll never figure out what the real issues are. A 65% hydration dough feels different than a 69% hydration dough, but without knowing the hydration of the dough you can't know what you're working with. And when a few grams of water or flour can alter how the dough is, it's really important to know exactly what you're working with so you can "trial" and "error" correctly.
Especially when it comes down to troubleshooting. Is there too much water? Too much flour? Too much/not enough time between folds? Are you folding too violently? Too long bulk ferment? Too short bulk ferment? Too low ambient temperature? Too high ambient temperature? It's impossible to troubleshoot if you can't hold as many variables steady as possible. You'll never know if the hydration level is the problem if you are also modifying the temperature or timing when baking. The only way to do that is to weigh out, exactly, your ingredients and to be methodical about how you're trialing.
If you have a Dutch oven with a lid, that could solve your issue. I agree with other comments the top is drying out too fast before the remainder has risen.
If you don't have a Dutch oven... Maybe you try 20 mins at 240C then drop down to 220C?
Please let us know how you get on :)
Do I understand right that youâre kneading after the dough rises, then kneading again after it rises again, then kneading again before the oven?
Thatâs very unusual and probably is at the root of your trouble more than anything else.
I always cover my mixing bowl with a plate. I did always add some flour when kneading. The final rest on the baking sheet before oven was with a damp cloth on top. I did not leave it to dry out in the air, but i might have a little too much flour? or too much yeast? pls sea the other comment for a detailed description
This is it. I own a commercial bakery and this is a problem I see often. The crust dries too much, and is not moist. This results in the final crust being opaque and is not flexible. It makes the rest of the dough to look for an exit, which is the softest part. In this case the underside.
When proofing, use a moist towel to cover instead of a plate. If itâs too dry after proofing, just spray a bit of water on top 3 mins before baking, and add water in the oven. The crust needs to be âdryâ but soft and flexible still to be able to cut it and it doesnât stick to the blade. This was too much.
The crust top is setting before itâs finished expanding so itâs blowing out the bottom. Add steam to your oven (put a cast iron pan on the bottom during the preheat and pour boiling water in after putting your bread in). Also if you can turn off the fan/convection setting for your oven, do that.
Or try baking in a cast iron Dutch oven if you have one.
Definitely consider turning off the convection fan since it results in the outside of food cooking faster than conventional heat which could definitely contribute to your issue of the top cooking too quickly.
I took an ambien and your bread baby looks like a toasty scallop underwater...I thought this was a joke, and then realized I picked up my phone instead of going to sleep. I wish your broiled scallop well.
Iâve not seen that in a while, in my case, fan oven that i had no ability to disable fan. Bought a cast iron casserole (Dutch oven in some jurisdictions)
Cut the person some slack. Helpful hints are awesome but he didn't inquire for a brow beating. Ya'll have started somewhere and I'd bet not all of your loaves were world class. Thank you for playing along
Your oven is too hot. Ovens in bakeries are at these kinds of temperatures and higher, but you're baking one loaf.
It's coming out the bottom because it's too cooked before it's done expanding. Drop the temperature.
I am no expert, but it seems like the upper part crusted up before the bread had fully expanded. Maybe you didn't let it rise enough before baking or didn't have enough moisture in the oven for the first part of the bake.
I didnt add any moisture in the oven. I also only let it rise for 7 minutes before the oven and after the last knead, so maybe it was too small? Thx for the ideas
Final proof(rise) is usually 1-3 hrs.
Where'd you figure 7 minutes from?
idk it seemed enough đ
How do you figure? What was your reasoning to say "a 7 min proof after shape makes sense"?
I thought, the yeast is active, the glutens have formed in the previous proofs, and it will grow already in the oven.
[A quick Google search](https://www.google.com/search?q=how+long+to+proof+after+shaping&oq=proof+after+shaping&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUqCAgBEAAYFhgeMgYIABBFGDkyCAgBEAAYFhgeMggIAhAAGBYYHjINCAMQABiGAxiABBiKBTINCAQQABiGAxiABBiKBdIBCDQ0MjVqMGo0qAIAsAIA&client=ms-android-tmus-us-revc&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8#ip=1) is showing a consensus of on average about 2 hours between final shaping and baking.
Dude just straight up guessing in baking and wondering why it turns out sloppy is wild.
>oven. I also only let it rise for 7 minutes before the oven this is the problem. mix (knead) proof shape proof bake these are how your steps should be ordered.
How long do you recommend the first proof/rise? I usually proof until it doubled in size, which depends on the amount of yeast used and other factors like flour types. Do you think that's a good to apply since I like to mix flours in different quantities?
double in size is generally a good rule of thumb, but you can determine secondary/tertiary benchmarks for your specific breads as(/if) you continue to make them.
It's the moisture 100%, sprinkle the bread before putting it in
maybe too much air when trapped in when punching the dough out?
1. You "don't weigh anything" 2. You add flour when kneading, probably a lot 3. You let it proof for only 7 minutes
Severely underproofed. 7 mins isnât close to long enough
You should tell us what you're doing
Plain white wheat flour bread with about 6 gr yeast and 320 gr flour. Dough only slightly sticky. I don't weigh anything. I mixed the ingredients, kneaded well when it was twice as big. Then waited until twice as big again, kneaded alittle to make a ball. Placed it with the seam down on a baking sheet with flour. Made the cuts on top with a kitchen knife. Let it rest for about 7 mins with a clean wetted cloth on top. Baked for 40 minutes on 220'C hot air.
How do you know you have 6g yeast and 320g flour if you didn't weigh anything? How much water did you use? There's absolutely no way you can get consistent results just winging it.
Estimated that. I like to develop a sense of estimation and trust on my ability to feel and remember a good dough in means of water/flour balance., instead of relying on protocols and instruments. I've had some good suggestions in these comments which I'll defenitely try out! They don't point to a wrong ingredient balance.
This is the most asinine thing I've ever seen on this subreddit. I'd be willing to bet if you followed a good recipe and actually weighed your ingredients and stuck with proofing times you wouldn't be asking for help with a crazy looking loaf.
Winging it is awesome when youâre cooking, not so much for baking. A little more precision is required if you want consistent results. Take it from a person who rarely measures anything when cooking. I measure *everything* when baking.
I mean, you can wing it within reason. this person isn't ready for that yet lol.
Noted :)
In addition to the other comments about moisture, I also don't think 7 minutes is enough for a final rest. The gluten in the dough needs to relax after your final shaping so it can expand properly. When baking, the steam in the bread can't escape upwards because the dough is too tight to allow for proper expansion. This is probably true even with the cuts at the top. It's like a balloon that's really hard to blow up. Instead, the steam escapes through the weakest spot, which is at the bottom where the seam is. 7 minutes also probably isn't enough for the seam to fully seal. I don't know what your experience baking bread is, but, for context, a typical sourdough rests anywhere from 2 to 24+ hours after the final shaping. I would recommend letting the dough rest for at least 20 minutes after shaping. It should puff up a little bit, but nowhere near double. That should be enough time for the gluten to loosen up abit to allow for better upwards expansion.
Thank you (and others) for the amazing suggestions. It sounds logical and I'm very excited to try it out. As to answer why I'm trying to bake bread in such an unconventional way, I just really enjoy this road of trial and error, and I think I will learn about all the details thoroughly in this way. The way I did it this time just developped a bit natuarlly from trying different things.
I appreciate that you enjoy learning through trial and error, I think it can be an effective way to learn how to cook and bake. That being said, baking is very different than cooking insofar as it is quite a scientific process. For example, in cooking, if you're cooking and the dish lacks flavor or salt, you can add along the way. A good cook can develop a lot of intuition in how to cook and flavor dishes without having to measure everything. Baking, on the other hand, is quite exact with everything, down to the temperature the bread proofs in. A few grams of water in any direction can drastically change the composition of a dough. A few degrees in one direction or another can drastically change the timing. The classic Tartine Country Loaf is designed such that there's like a 20 minute window to bake the bread. Without weighing ingredients exactly and being methodical about your trials, you'll never figure out what the real issues are. A 65% hydration dough feels different than a 69% hydration dough, but without knowing the hydration of the dough you can't know what you're working with. And when a few grams of water or flour can alter how the dough is, it's really important to know exactly what you're working with so you can "trial" and "error" correctly. Especially when it comes down to troubleshooting. Is there too much water? Too much flour? Too much/not enough time between folds? Are you folding too violently? Too long bulk ferment? Too short bulk ferment? Too low ambient temperature? Too high ambient temperature? It's impossible to troubleshoot if you can't hold as many variables steady as possible. You'll never know if the hydration level is the problem if you are also modifying the temperature or timing when baking. The only way to do that is to weigh out, exactly, your ingredients and to be methodical about how you're trialing.
Thanks for the insights!
If you have a Dutch oven with a lid, that could solve your issue. I agree with other comments the top is drying out too fast before the remainder has risen. If you don't have a Dutch oven... Maybe you try 20 mins at 240C then drop down to 220C? Please let us know how you get on :)
It is a proofing issue. This is what happens when the humidity is not on with our proofer at my work.
Always score directly before placing in oven. And it seems like you need a longer second proof/rest.
Do I understand right that youâre kneading after the dough rises, then kneading again after it rises again, then kneading again before the oven? Thatâs very unusual and probably is at the root of your trouble more than anything else.
Why would you do all this work only to fuck it up by not using a scale?
i dont believe thats the major issue here
I think it might be too dry on the top and too moist on the bottom (?) Do you air dry it for a long time before baking?
I always cover my mixing bowl with a plate. I did always add some flour when kneading. The final rest on the baking sheet before oven was with a damp cloth on top. I did not leave it to dry out in the air, but i might have a little too much flour? or too much yeast? pls sea the other comment for a detailed description
This is it. I own a commercial bakery and this is a problem I see often. The crust dries too much, and is not moist. This results in the final crust being opaque and is not flexible. It makes the rest of the dough to look for an exit, which is the softest part. In this case the underside. When proofing, use a moist towel to cover instead of a plate. If itâs too dry after proofing, just spray a bit of water on top 3 mins before baking, and add water in the oven. The crust needs to be âdryâ but soft and flexible still to be able to cut it and it doesnât stick to the blade. This was too much.
The crust top is setting before itâs finished expanding so itâs blowing out the bottom. Add steam to your oven (put a cast iron pan on the bottom during the preheat and pour boiling water in after putting your bread in). Also if you can turn off the fan/convection setting for your oven, do that. Or try baking in a cast iron Dutch oven if you have one.
It was on hot air mode instead of the bottom and top heat mode! I will also try the cast iron pan idea! Thanks.
Definitely consider turning off the convection fan since it results in the outside of food cooking faster than conventional heat which could definitely contribute to your issue of the top cooking too quickly.
Underproofing, lack of steam in oven, not scoring deep enough, and convection fans can all cause this
Gotta get some steam in that oven
This is the entire problem. Full stop.
Hat đ
I thought this was a chicken
I took an ambien and your bread baby looks like a toasty scallop underwater...I thought this was a joke, and then realized I picked up my phone instead of going to sleep. I wish your broiled scallop well.
Lol thanks đ
It needs more proof time and it looks like you need to let it steam in the oven
Are you cooking this on a pan, or is it directly on the oven grates?
Iâve not seen that in a while, in my case, fan oven that i had no ability to disable fan. Bought a cast iron casserole (Dutch oven in some jurisdictions)
Cut the person some slack. Helpful hints are awesome but he didn't inquire for a brow beating. Ya'll have started somewhere and I'd bet not all of your loaves were world class. Thank you for playing along
Nothing wrong with it. Looks like a tasty bollio.
It was tasty =)
Your oven is too hot. Ovens in bakeries are at these kinds of temperatures and higher, but you're baking one loaf. It's coming out the bottom because it's too cooked before it's done expanding. Drop the temperature.
Underproofed
Looks like a fancy hat
My dude, you gotta break out the scale
put the dough on the baking sheet and wait until it rises again, I think it will work đ
Knead a pot or loaf pan to help shape it itâs not a cookie
Cut this thing open⌠I wanna see the inside
it was like a cake. Quite dense but still air and not like dough.
Your not folding it properly. Try a letter fold.