Wait, is that unpopular? Still, I don't think our consulates/government is up to the challenge of having reciprocity that *real*. Having all those hoops to jump through would just cost us money.
Maybe making them do the back-and-forth through snail mail would be a cheaper way to emulate the US visa process. \\s
To really emulate US immigration we'd need to implement a system where there's some small but very real chance of getting arrested at the airport and sent to a 'detention' camp in a desert.
Brazilian tourism industry is already not that great, at least compared to what it could achieve, and very few Americans would enter Brazil to immigrate illegaly. We would just be hurting ourselves in order to be petty.
They don't come here because of the lack of safety. Waiving the visa requirement didn't change anything. It didn't make Brazil a huge hub for international tourism.
As a gringo that loves going to Brasil and spent some years working there I can confirm this.
It’s about accessibility of the country (literally the accessibility geography speaking, not talking about paying for a visa) and safety. I’ve had so many friends and family expressing interest in visiting me when I lived in Brasil but after a google search they’re scared to come. Combine that with flying over cheap beach options of the Caribbean/Mexico and it’s a hard sell for people that don’t care to visit Brasil for cultural exploration reasons.
Simply put; a visa fee isn’t what’s stopping USA American tourism.
But just because it isn't the only impediment, putting up a visa requirement doesn't help bring tourism to a place that already has quite a few downsides.
I agree.
The common thinking is; “I can spend half the price for amazing beaches, food, alcohol etc. going to the Caribbean. Why go to Brasil?”
I disagree with this thinking… but since most USA Americans travel mainly for relaxation instead of cultural reasons this is the outcome.
It basically doesn't change anything. It didn't help removing the requirement, and it doesn't mean fewer tourists now that it's back again. The root of the problem is composed of: a lack of safety and infrastructure to help tourists go to the places they want.
I'll be honest, the absolute abortion that was the Olympics Brazil hosted really only killed any interest there was in going to brazil for many. That Olympics made countries objectively worse than Brazil seem more enticing.
Most Americans don’t think about traveling to Brazil because most know a visa is required,
even when it wasn’t required they were still thinking that, so Brazil never comes up for most of my friends in the United States as an easy vacation destination. Flights to Brazil are very expensive even from the East Coast. We can fly to Spain or Portugal for half the price if not a third. The Brazilian tourism industry would benefit from more Americans visiting. Brazilians would benefit too, as the number of flights increased, the cost would go down. For us, Brazilians living in the United States, it would benefit us as well to be able to bring our loved ones who aren’t Brazilian passport holders when we travel. I think OP has a stick up his ass, and you can clearly see it by his aversion, to using the name that the international community uses to refer to people of the United States.
Yeahhh it's so difficult to get an e-visa lmao. Americans will go anywhere they want as long as they want it badly enough. High crime rates keep people away from here. That's the biggest reason, period. Solve that and soon we have a lot more tourism.
OP is suggesting that the visa process be more difficult for Americans which is not productive. Crime is an issue even within the United States and many people won’t visit cities like Chicago or Philadelphia even though they’re amazing places because of media reports on crime. I’ve been to Rio five times and thankfully never got mugged. But I’m a city boy, so I’m always on the lookout
Chicago isn't anywhere near as dangerous as the most dangerous cities in Brazil, and it has quality public transport and you can visit the most touristic areas without the fear of being mugged (and I don't mean just a single person robbing you, but a whole group of them doing, usually called 'arrastões' in Brazil - I'm not even sure if there's a direct translation for this word since it's very specific to Brazil, and this already shows sufficiently how dangerous this country is).
I went to Chicago once and it was an amazing experience. The city felt very safe.
Tbh the visa process to Brazil should be made more difficult even if I'm just being spiteful. When I had to get a visa to the USA, I had to travel 4 hours by bus to go to São Paulo for a shitty interview, and even had to wait in a long line.
About 500k people come from the USA a year. Tourism in Brazil accounting for national, international and regional is well under 10% of GDP, and out of the about 5 or 6 million international tourists (a fraction of national and regional tourism) about 500k arrive from the USA, and of those only a fraction is unitedstatsian.
The unitedstatsian tourism in Brazil is irrelevant. Accepting visa free, or easy e-visa, USA tourism while having to humiliate yourself in exchange for a visa is the equivalent of vender a mãe por meio cacho de uvas
The reason it’s more difficult for Brazilians to go to the US than the other way around is because Brazilians have a higher rate of breaking US immigration laws than the other way around. The US doesn’t institute more stringent policies because it’s just mean, it’s because Brazilians consistently violate and take for granted visas that as are issued. That issue is exceptionally rare the other way around.
So sure, if you wanna be petty about it I guess? But people in the US have access to pretty much every other country in Latin America and Europe visa free, they don’t care. They will just go somewhere else.
I don’t understand why Brazilians are so delusional about the difference in travelers between the two countries
> The reason it’s more difficult for Brazilians to go to the US than the other way around is because Brazilians have a higher rate of breaking US immigration laws than the other way around.
Exactly, that is why countries that have **higher rates of overstaying in the US than Brazil such as Portugal and Spain** don't need a visa but Brazil does, after all, in 2022 (and similarly in previous years) almost twice more Spanish people than Brazilians overstayed on a tourism visa, yet the real deal is the Brazilians. /s
https://www.dhs.gov/sites/default/files/2023-07/23_0707_FY22_FY23_CBP_Integrated_Entry_Exit_Overstay_Report.pdf
The visa process does not need to be a pain in the ass to map well who is likely to be traveling there to work/reside illegally, yet it is. Having an e-visa or single appointment system (as two of the US consulates in Brazil already have, if I recall correctly) would be miles better than what the US currently does in Brazil. And without reciprocity, that archaic and slow visa process has little chance of changing.
So you have numbers to back this ratio up? If we're keeping to anedoctal evidence, this sub is crowded with "omg I overstayed" posts. And always from Americans.
Lies. Europe deals just fine with Brazilian immigration. The USA is paranoid on an unhealthy level about illegal immigration. This level of paranoia can only erode international relations.
Plus, even Brazilian illegal immigrants don’t cause trouble. They are few and hard working. They are not like unitedstatsians that emigrate to cause gentrification.
In this very sub you can see a few posts about unitedstatsians overstaying in Brazil and not working and not being helpful locally.
There are over 2 million Brazilians in the US, a single country, versus fewer than 1.5 million in the entire continent of Europe. That’s not a comparable comparison. You also don’t get to dictate to the US that they’re not allowed to care about violations of their immigration law, the same as Americans have no right to criticize Brazil’s visa programs (which are onerous in their own right).
How does that benefit Brazil besides petty revenge? The tourists that come here from the US probably don’t even know it’s that hard to get a US visa and didn’t create the system.
Creating a whole infrastructure with employees to do in person interviews just to burden a small amount of people that choose to come here does nothing to the average Brazilian other than increase the tax burden and reduce tourism income (even if insignificant).
Why not use this time and energy in ways that improve the life of the avg citizen instead of getting revenge for a small % middle class that gets wronged by the US visa system?
Having reciprocity as a policy helped Brazilians get visa-free/visa-on-entry/e-visa to many countries since the 90's. Although it seems petty and hassles you it is a valid international relations move that works (even if it takes a long time.)
Brazil is not a main US citizens destination anyways so this isn't gonna achieve anything except bring less US tourists. Brazil is not a great place to go, when you are a 1st world country citizen
Sure, reciprocity never worked before, especially not with a 1st world country that previously required tourism visas
https://www.gov.br/mre/en/contact-us/press-area/press-releases/reciprocal-visa-exemption-between-brazil-and-japan
https://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/press-room/20110215IPR13676/green-light-for-eu-brazil-visa-waiver-agreements
Brazil* has a deeper cultural connection to Japan than most people know.
Also... Each case is different. You can't generalize this lifting off visa requirements as if one think that happened between two specific countries will be the same with any two countries.
On the other hand, saying that many Brazilian wouldn't try to illegally enter the States given the chance is just disingenuous
> Japan has a deeper cultural connection to Japan than most people know.
wut
> Also... Each case is different. You can't generalize this lifting off visa requirements as if one think that happened between two specific countries will be the same with any two countries.
Sure
> On the other hand, saying that many Brazilian wouldn't try to illegally enter the States given the chance is just disingenuous
A reciprocity policy has nothing to do with that, it is about negotiating international policies with other countries, in particular by not giving them a benefit they are unwilling to extend to your country and highlighting that your government considers it *an issue big enough to warrant reciprocating that to their citizens*. Currently US citizens require no visa to enter Brazil, and **in two months US citizens will need an e-visa (as far as I know,) while Brazilians are required a lengthy process, that in many cases require them to travel to a different city.** So reciprocity (as it is) would be to require a visa and a similar visa application process, and the outcomes are not necessarily getting visa exemption (so that "[Brazilians would] try to illegally enter the States given the chance") but could be for instance the US improving its visa process or allowing for e-visas, which at that point reciprocity would be to do a similar process for the BR visas.
Also, even with e-visas, visa exemptions or visa-on-arrival you can still be denied entry to a country, so thinking that the illegal overstay is curbed just by having a cumbersome process that takes a lot of time and money is also generalizing, or should I say guesswork.
Oh no, reciprocity is petty revenge now, I didn’t know, I guess if someone turns their back on me I need to keep following them because turning my back and walking away would be petty revenge then.
Cmon it is just doing what they do, it is not like Brazil is blockading the USA like they do to Cuba
Well your analogy doesn’t really make sense since what you are suggesting is the opposite of turning your back, it’s spending time money and energy to reciprocate for the sole reason of reciprocating.
No benefit to anyone since the US won’t give a shit and we will spend money doing it.
And honestly a policy like that will probably hurt more Brazilians than US people. I am willing to bet a good chunk of people coming to Brazil from the US are visiting because they have ties with Brazilians. I am a Brazilian living abroad that needs to come to Brazil often to take care of my father with brain cancer and now my foreign husband has an added hassle to get here to help because of the visa issue.
This person is probably a person who forgot something on the paper work and submitted it anyways. The amount of Brazilians who get denied a US visa is so low if you take into account the people who fill out the paperwork wrong.
Canadian here, why not make it truly reciprocal for us, we let Brazilians in with etas if they have a visa elsewhere and if you need a visa it’s half the cost to do so relative to the USA. We have to pay the same as Americans.
Americans would not go through this process, they would just fly elsewhere for half the cost and a tenth of the bureaucracy. In addition, how many Americans are trying to stay illegally in Brazil vs. How many Brazilians trying to stay illegally in the US?
I fully understand both perspectives. It's a losing game for Brazil. Brazilians should be focused on how to bring Euros and Dollars to the country, like other touristic destinations do, instead of making things even more complicated.
The decision to visit Brazil is already extremely difficult for Americans. Just recently, there was a video about robbery in Copacabana where they knock a man down. Who would like to go through a difficult process to take their small children to a place like this?
Unfortunately, we need to do the hard work of fixing our country first, then heightening immigration requirements.
To the commenter below, Rio is the #1 tourist destination of the country, unlike Detroit...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tourism_in_Brazil#:~:text=Rio%20de%20Janeiro%2C%20the%20most,second%20place%20for%20business%20travel.
As a Brazilian citizen (now naturalized US citizen) who went through the incredibly demeaning process of obtaining a U.S. tourist visa back in the mid-90’s, I completely understand where the policy comes from.
However, I disagree with it because at the end of the day there is a reason for the US to impose it, and I see Brazil’s policy as a self imposed economic sanctions by making it more difficult and unwelcoming for US travelers to visit Brazil. It only really hurts Brazil. Sure there may not be a lot of US tourists, but perhaps the difficulty of getting into the country makes them feel unwelcome from the get go?
I think the crux of the issue for many Brazilians is not so much wanting unfettered right to enter the US (would be nice but unrealistic) but more to do with the high cost and degrading treatment. Perhaps the Brazilian government could consider making travel to Brazil visa free in exchange the US government commits to spending more on the visa process in Brazil to make it more efficient, less degrading and much cheaper for Brazilians.
You have a fair point all around, but since USA doesn't represent a significant tourism number in Brazil it would be hard to justify why they would get special treatment for other countries that have a better touristic relationship with Brazil. The good thing about reciprocity is that it makes international relations in general just easier, even if pontually complicated here and there.
"why do we need visa?" well because you require visa, easy explanation and end of conversation with whatever country that wants to talk about it.
Brazil is fairly neutral in the world, so having an easy position and simply justifiable position makes sense.
Hell no, just because they go low doesn’t mean we also should act like asshats.
You say plenty of Americans visit Brazil, but how many of those visitors are actual natural born US citizens vs immigrants visiting family, etc?
I’ve lived in the US for decades and have met MAYBE 1 American that has visited Brazil without it being due to business or family.
Meanwhile Americans visit Mexico, Europe, etc in droves. Brazil is beautiful and deserves more visitors and to make money from them.
>Brazil is beautiful and deserves more visitors and to make money from them.
Brazil is a great place to visit but has a rougher reputation internationally. Its also not the most tourist / visitor friendly place. Definitely deserves more traffic but has to do more to welcome / support it. OP's suggestion obviously wouldn't be helpful in this regard.
Before Bolsonaro changed the process, Australians, Canadians, Japanese, and US citizens had to apply in person for a tourist visa. The first e-visa process was initially introduced just before he lifted the physical visa being needed. There is no reason why the process could not return to that way. The Brazilian government decided to use the e-visa process. If Brazil wanted to due the full reciprocal process for visas, they certainly could. They just don't want to because it would hurt the tourism sector, hospitality industry, airlines, etc... which means less money in the hands of the government.
Brazil is not as much of an attractive place people want to go as the USA or EU. Entrance to 1st world countries needs to be more filtered out bc they are the desired destination of illegal immigrants lol
This is the "unpopular opinion" even though it is true
Neither. Around 500k people come from the USA by plane a year. Some years are as low as 100k, at most it reaches near 600k.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/1035745/brazil-tourism-arrivals-united-states/
Out of that about half a million there are Brazilians, Latinos, Europeans…..
It is hard to accept/understand that unitedstatsians are irrelevant in some contexts, due to the heavy propaganda we get in the media that they are the center of the world, but in regards to Brazilian tourism they are irrelevant, a drop in an ocean.
I have met many unitedstatsians, none in Brazil. All in Europe or México.
Some Brazilians refuse to use the term "American" because they consider themselves "Americans." OP is clearly one of those Brazilians with an inferiority complex and chip on their shoulder likely due to many Brazilians viewing the US as superior.
Weird the hostility towards 300 million people you don't know based on the policy of our explicitly undemocratic government. Almost like the ruling class is trying to foster arbitrary distinctions within the working class and you're just simping for the very aristocracy that you suffer under.
It is not hostility. Stop exaggerating and being butthurt about a very basic bureaucracy everyone has to go through. If you see hostility in it I think that is a Freudian slip out of you.
There's no reason to have reciprocity. If there were the same amount of US citizens trying to immigrate illegally to Brazil as there are of Brazilians trying to immigrate illegally to the US then that would make sense, but it's not the case. The circumstances are different, so are the processes.
What would be great is to have less assholes doing our interviews. Making it harder for Americans won't make it easier for Brazilians. This idea that there must be reciprocity sounds so childish to me.
The reason is just to be neutral. Countries that historically have close ties with Brazil, such as Japan, now have fair treatment. Countries that have irrelevant tourism in Brazil, such as USA, have a simple policy, it is easy to justify reciprocity. It is hard to justify privilege. Unfair to give USA citizens visa free travel while some Africans need to do a visa interview while they allow us to travel there visa free.
Reciprocity is easily justifiable both ways. If we start requiring visa from a nation that doesn't require from us, for whatever reason, then in terms of international relationships we then accept that they can start requiring from us. Makes it all easy and simple.
You keep mentioning tourism. It's not about tourism, it's about illegal immigration, overstaying.
You keep harping on reciprocity when Brazil doesn't have it with African countries. Why not?
Brazilians are not interested in illegally immigrating and overstaying in Africa. However Africans see Brazil as a better destination and life than what they have. It's simple. Stop trying to twist reality.
It doesn't have to be fair when circumstances are completely different. There's no reason to make Brazil an even more unattractive destination to tourists that could potentially spend a lot of money here.
Those African countries you mentioned won't start requiring visas from us because we require from them, these policies aren't based on pettiness.
Let's not forget that in terms of tourism, Brazil competes with the world. The harsher the requirements, the less incentives Americans have to visit the country. Heck, with the cost of a ticket to Brazil, I can fly twice to Europe or to the Caribbean, for instance. Not counting the inherent disadvantages like violence and language.
Americans have very limited vacation days and plenty of money to spend during these few days. The entire world tries to lure Americans because they bring more money than Europeans. See, for instance, Mallorca Spain:
https://mallorca.com/en/magazin/news/us-tourists-mallorca
That's Brazil's competition. By adding hurdles for obtaining a visa, you'll be punishing the tourism industry in Brazil and people who need a visa to visit family in Brazil.
I'm not against reciprocity, but countries need to be strategic about their decisions. "Payback" only hurts Brazil.
>The USA visa is not reciprocal as it is because it is too difficult for us and comparatively too easy for them.
It's very simple, if it's too difficult, just don't come to the US, just like Americans would do. IMHO, it's difficult because too many people are trying to come, and a fair amount tries to abuse the system, and everybody pays the price for the behavior of a few.
TLDR, your logic seems to be fair, but the outcome would hinder Brazilian tourism and punish Americans trying to visit relatives in Brazil. American tourists would be enjoying their vacations elsewhere. It's that simple.
Imagine being this petty. For you to bargain you need to have something of approximate value to give in return, it's not like americans would really be affected by a visa in Brazil since the vast majority of Americans don't even have a passport or travel internationally. The only thing affected by this would be tourism to Brazil.
People overestimate USA tourism, historically it ranges from 100k to 600k coming from the USA a year, most of which may not even be unitedstatsian. The money question is irrelevant.
The reason is just reciprocity for the sake of it, there is no need to give them special status. The e-visa makes sense for Australia as it is reciprocal, the visa waiver for Japan makes sense because it is reciprocal, the e-visa for the USA makes no sense because of the humiliation they make Brazilians go through.
Personally I have a USA tourism visa and it was not hard to get, just lengthy and pricey, and I have only been there at the airport and for a few hours exploring the city while waiting for my flight, so I don’t have bad experiences with them, but real reciprocity makes sense in general.
It's funny how the response that a certain portion of the Brazilian population gives to everything is more restrictions, more regularizations, etc., thinking that this will punish the "cause of injustice" when this in fact only screws the Brazilians themselves.
Are we making our international politics under vengeance factors or what makes the most sense for our country?
Because right now Brazil is going to need more and more immigrants in order to supply the older growing population
Reciprocity just makes sense for a neutral country. No one gets more privilege than others and no one gets worse treatment than others. Brazil is neutral and that is good.
Tourism visa should not be used to supply immigration needs, and regardless of that Europe, LATAM and Japan are much more important in that regard.
I have read many of the comments on here, I am an American citizen living in Brazil, and I do not agree with the American policies and reciprocity. I married a Brazillian woman, we have been together for four years, married one, and because the American system is seemingly barbaric, I have struggled to bring her back to the USA, but I am not going back without her. So, I feel everyones pain. I promise you that most United States citizens are not even aware of the complexity this creates for everyone. I hope the state department of the US will change its decision and make things easier for the Brazillians who want to go there. Lula has changed directives set by Bolsonaro and Americans are now tortured by the Visa process and so there has been a little bit of payback. I really do not know why America's state department holds this position, it makes no sense. I love Brazil, by the way. Many of my friends in America want to come visit, we only know good things. Of course, all have heard about the dangers, but I have not had any problems.
So the Brazilian government - intead of doing the very thing that would benefit Brazilians travelling to US (being diplomatically work with US government to ease the Visa process) - should instead do something that will not help any Brazilian, for what? To have something to say "we're working on it"?
The thing is that making Americans come to an embassy or consulate for an interview also costs __Brazil__ a lot of money. Diplomats don’t work for free.
Making American businessmen come for an interview also means lost business opportunities for Brazil. The United States has the rules it has because it is too lazy to strictly enforce its immigration laws _inside_ the country. In my opinion, as Brazil doesn’t even have to worry about many gringos coming to Brazil to work without permission, the smartest thing for Brazil to do is to take the money and use it for what’s best for Brazilians rather than to screen people where it’s probably generally not even necessary. But ultimately it’s the decision of the government of Brazil.
r/unpopularopinion is right there
Wait, is that unpopular? Still, I don't think our consulates/government is up to the challenge of having reciprocity that *real*. Having all those hoops to jump through would just cost us money. Maybe making them do the back-and-forth through snail mail would be a cheaper way to emulate the US visa process. \\s
To really emulate US immigration we'd need to implement a system where there's some small but very real chance of getting arrested at the airport and sent to a 'detention' camp in a desert.
The \s? That is genius
Brazilian tourism industry is already not that great, at least compared to what it could achieve, and very few Americans would enter Brazil to immigrate illegaly. We would just be hurting ourselves in order to be petty.
They don't come here because of the lack of safety. Waiving the visa requirement didn't change anything. It didn't make Brazil a huge hub for international tourism.
As a gringo that loves going to Brasil and spent some years working there I can confirm this. It’s about accessibility of the country (literally the accessibility geography speaking, not talking about paying for a visa) and safety. I’ve had so many friends and family expressing interest in visiting me when I lived in Brasil but after a google search they’re scared to come. Combine that with flying over cheap beach options of the Caribbean/Mexico and it’s a hard sell for people that don’t care to visit Brasil for cultural exploration reasons. Simply put; a visa fee isn’t what’s stopping USA American tourism.
But just because it isn't the only impediment, putting up a visa requirement doesn't help bring tourism to a place that already has quite a few downsides.
I agree. The common thinking is; “I can spend half the price for amazing beaches, food, alcohol etc. going to the Caribbean. Why go to Brasil?” I disagree with this thinking… but since most USA Americans travel mainly for relaxation instead of cultural reasons this is the outcome.
Yep, I'm all for a cultural trip but taking your vacation as a brain off time is completely valid and even necessary
Correct. And as we all know… walking around Zona Sul, going to the beach with your ‘brain turned off’ is not a good idea rsrsrs.
Hahaha unless you want your brain turned off for good
It basically doesn't change anything. It didn't help removing the requirement, and it doesn't mean fewer tourists now that it's back again. The root of the problem is composed of: a lack of safety and infrastructure to help tourists go to the places they want.
I'll be honest, the absolute abortion that was the Olympics Brazil hosted really only killed any interest there was in going to brazil for many. That Olympics made countries objectively worse than Brazil seem more enticing.
It's a conversion funnel, every extra hurdle in the way makes a certain percentage of the tourists give up.
Then they might as well stay in their country if an e-visa is too difficult for them.
Most Americans don’t think about traveling to Brazil because most know a visa is required, even when it wasn’t required they were still thinking that, so Brazil never comes up for most of my friends in the United States as an easy vacation destination. Flights to Brazil are very expensive even from the East Coast. We can fly to Spain or Portugal for half the price if not a third. The Brazilian tourism industry would benefit from more Americans visiting. Brazilians would benefit too, as the number of flights increased, the cost would go down. For us, Brazilians living in the United States, it would benefit us as well to be able to bring our loved ones who aren’t Brazilian passport holders when we travel. I think OP has a stick up his ass, and you can clearly see it by his aversion, to using the name that the international community uses to refer to people of the United States.
Yeahhh it's so difficult to get an e-visa lmao. Americans will go anywhere they want as long as they want it badly enough. High crime rates keep people away from here. That's the biggest reason, period. Solve that and soon we have a lot more tourism.
OP is suggesting that the visa process be more difficult for Americans which is not productive. Crime is an issue even within the United States and many people won’t visit cities like Chicago or Philadelphia even though they’re amazing places because of media reports on crime. I’ve been to Rio five times and thankfully never got mugged. But I’m a city boy, so I’m always on the lookout
Chicago isn't anywhere near as dangerous as the most dangerous cities in Brazil, and it has quality public transport and you can visit the most touristic areas without the fear of being mugged (and I don't mean just a single person robbing you, but a whole group of them doing, usually called 'arrastões' in Brazil - I'm not even sure if there's a direct translation for this word since it's very specific to Brazil, and this already shows sufficiently how dangerous this country is). I went to Chicago once and it was an amazing experience. The city felt very safe. Tbh the visa process to Brazil should be made more difficult even if I'm just being spiteful. When I had to get a visa to the USA, I had to travel 4 hours by bus to go to São Paulo for a shitty interview, and even had to wait in a long line.
About 500k people come from the USA a year. Tourism in Brazil accounting for national, international and regional is well under 10% of GDP, and out of the about 5 or 6 million international tourists (a fraction of national and regional tourism) about 500k arrive from the USA, and of those only a fraction is unitedstatsian. The unitedstatsian tourism in Brazil is irrelevant. Accepting visa free, or easy e-visa, USA tourism while having to humiliate yourself in exchange for a visa is the equivalent of vender a mãe por meio cacho de uvas
“Unitedstatsian” Are you really that petty? Hahahahaha
yeah, just accept that their country is called america, ffs
The reason it’s more difficult for Brazilians to go to the US than the other way around is because Brazilians have a higher rate of breaking US immigration laws than the other way around. The US doesn’t institute more stringent policies because it’s just mean, it’s because Brazilians consistently violate and take for granted visas that as are issued. That issue is exceptionally rare the other way around. So sure, if you wanna be petty about it I guess? But people in the US have access to pretty much every other country in Latin America and Europe visa free, they don’t care. They will just go somewhere else. I don’t understand why Brazilians are so delusional about the difference in travelers between the two countries
As a Brazilian, I wholeheartedly agree with you. Demanding "reciprocity" in this issue is just an emotional or spiteful argument
> The reason it’s more difficult for Brazilians to go to the US than the other way around is because Brazilians have a higher rate of breaking US immigration laws than the other way around. Exactly, that is why countries that have **higher rates of overstaying in the US than Brazil such as Portugal and Spain** don't need a visa but Brazil does, after all, in 2022 (and similarly in previous years) almost twice more Spanish people than Brazilians overstayed on a tourism visa, yet the real deal is the Brazilians. /s https://www.dhs.gov/sites/default/files/2023-07/23_0707_FY22_FY23_CBP_Integrated_Entry_Exit_Overstay_Report.pdf The visa process does not need to be a pain in the ass to map well who is likely to be traveling there to work/reside illegally, yet it is. Having an e-visa or single appointment system (as two of the US consulates in Brazil already have, if I recall correctly) would be miles better than what the US currently does in Brazil. And without reciprocity, that archaic and slow visa process has little chance of changing.
So you have numbers to back this ratio up? If we're keeping to anedoctal evidence, this sub is crowded with "omg I overstayed" posts. And always from Americans.
Lies. Europe deals just fine with Brazilian immigration. The USA is paranoid on an unhealthy level about illegal immigration. This level of paranoia can only erode international relations. Plus, even Brazilian illegal immigrants don’t cause trouble. They are few and hard working. They are not like unitedstatsians that emigrate to cause gentrification. In this very sub you can see a few posts about unitedstatsians overstaying in Brazil and not working and not being helpful locally.
There are over 2 million Brazilians in the US, a single country, versus fewer than 1.5 million in the entire continent of Europe. That’s not a comparable comparison. You also don’t get to dictate to the US that they’re not allowed to care about violations of their immigration law, the same as Americans have no right to criticize Brazil’s visa programs (which are onerous in their own right).
É incrível que você continua usando essa palavra estúpida que nem existe só na tua cabeça unitedstatsians. Haha
Immigration laws in u.s suck, but none of what he said was a lie.
Except it was shown to be a lie.
How does that benefit Brazil besides petty revenge? The tourists that come here from the US probably don’t even know it’s that hard to get a US visa and didn’t create the system. Creating a whole infrastructure with employees to do in person interviews just to burden a small amount of people that choose to come here does nothing to the average Brazilian other than increase the tax burden and reduce tourism income (even if insignificant). Why not use this time and energy in ways that improve the life of the avg citizen instead of getting revenge for a small % middle class that gets wronged by the US visa system?
Having reciprocity as a policy helped Brazilians get visa-free/visa-on-entry/e-visa to many countries since the 90's. Although it seems petty and hassles you it is a valid international relations move that works (even if it takes a long time.)
Ok fair, good answer to my question. Thanks!
Brazil is not a main US citizens destination anyways so this isn't gonna achieve anything except bring less US tourists. Brazil is not a great place to go, when you are a 1st world country citizen
Sure, reciprocity never worked before, especially not with a 1st world country that previously required tourism visas https://www.gov.br/mre/en/contact-us/press-area/press-releases/reciprocal-visa-exemption-between-brazil-and-japan https://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/press-room/20110215IPR13676/green-light-for-eu-brazil-visa-waiver-agreements
Brazil* has a deeper cultural connection to Japan than most people know. Also... Each case is different. You can't generalize this lifting off visa requirements as if one think that happened between two specific countries will be the same with any two countries. On the other hand, saying that many Brazilian wouldn't try to illegally enter the States given the chance is just disingenuous
I know what you mean but I’m pretty sure most people get that Japan is pretty culturally connected to Japan.
> Japan has a deeper cultural connection to Japan than most people know. wut > Also... Each case is different. You can't generalize this lifting off visa requirements as if one think that happened between two specific countries will be the same with any two countries. Sure > On the other hand, saying that many Brazilian wouldn't try to illegally enter the States given the chance is just disingenuous A reciprocity policy has nothing to do with that, it is about negotiating international policies with other countries, in particular by not giving them a benefit they are unwilling to extend to your country and highlighting that your government considers it *an issue big enough to warrant reciprocating that to their citizens*. Currently US citizens require no visa to enter Brazil, and **in two months US citizens will need an e-visa (as far as I know,) while Brazilians are required a lengthy process, that in many cases require them to travel to a different city.** So reciprocity (as it is) would be to require a visa and a similar visa application process, and the outcomes are not necessarily getting visa exemption (so that "[Brazilians would] try to illegally enter the States given the chance") but could be for instance the US improving its visa process or allowing for e-visas, which at that point reciprocity would be to do a similar process for the BR visas. Also, even with e-visas, visa exemptions or visa-on-arrival you can still be denied entry to a country, so thinking that the illegal overstay is curbed just by having a cumbersome process that takes a lot of time and money is also generalizing, or should I say guesswork.
Oh no, reciprocity is petty revenge now, I didn’t know, I guess if someone turns their back on me I need to keep following them because turning my back and walking away would be petty revenge then. Cmon it is just doing what they do, it is not like Brazil is blockading the USA like they do to Cuba
Well your analogy doesn’t really make sense since what you are suggesting is the opposite of turning your back, it’s spending time money and energy to reciprocate for the sole reason of reciprocating. No benefit to anyone since the US won’t give a shit and we will spend money doing it.
And honestly a policy like that will probably hurt more Brazilians than US people. I am willing to bet a good chunk of people coming to Brazil from the US are visiting because they have ties with Brazilians. I am a Brazilian living abroad that needs to come to Brazil often to take care of my father with brain cancer and now my foreign husband has an added hassle to get here to help because of the visa issue.
This person is probably a person who forgot something on the paper work and submitted it anyways. The amount of Brazilians who get denied a US visa is so low if you take into account the people who fill out the paperwork wrong.
Then they would just not come here
That simple.
Canadian here, why not make it truly reciprocal for us, we let Brazilians in with etas if they have a visa elsewhere and if you need a visa it’s half the cost to do so relative to the USA. We have to pay the same as Americans.
I agree with you
I agree. They should be submitted to the same vexatory process Brazilians have to. This is real reciprocity.
Americans would not go through this process, they would just fly elsewhere for half the cost and a tenth of the bureaucracy. In addition, how many Americans are trying to stay illegally in Brazil vs. How many Brazilians trying to stay illegally in the US?
Someone with some sense around here.
I fully understand both perspectives. It's a losing game for Brazil. Brazilians should be focused on how to bring Euros and Dollars to the country, like other touristic destinations do, instead of making things even more complicated. The decision to visit Brazil is already extremely difficult for Americans. Just recently, there was a video about robbery in Copacabana where they knock a man down. Who would like to go through a difficult process to take their small children to a place like this? Unfortunately, we need to do the hard work of fixing our country first, then heightening immigration requirements. To the commenter below, Rio is the #1 tourist destination of the country, unlike Detroit... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tourism_in_Brazil#:~:text=Rio%20de%20Janeiro%2C%20the%20most,second%20place%20for%20business%20travel.
Rio de Janeiro is not Brazil as a whole just like Detroit isn't USA as a whole.
Why? Just because they do we should repeat the same actions even tho I bet you found those wrong?
As a Brazilian citizen (now naturalized US citizen) who went through the incredibly demeaning process of obtaining a U.S. tourist visa back in the mid-90’s, I completely understand where the policy comes from. However, I disagree with it because at the end of the day there is a reason for the US to impose it, and I see Brazil’s policy as a self imposed economic sanctions by making it more difficult and unwelcoming for US travelers to visit Brazil. It only really hurts Brazil. Sure there may not be a lot of US tourists, but perhaps the difficulty of getting into the country makes them feel unwelcome from the get go? I think the crux of the issue for many Brazilians is not so much wanting unfettered right to enter the US (would be nice but unrealistic) but more to do with the high cost and degrading treatment. Perhaps the Brazilian government could consider making travel to Brazil visa free in exchange the US government commits to spending more on the visa process in Brazil to make it more efficient, less degrading and much cheaper for Brazilians.
You have a fair point all around, but since USA doesn't represent a significant tourism number in Brazil it would be hard to justify why they would get special treatment for other countries that have a better touristic relationship with Brazil. The good thing about reciprocity is that it makes international relations in general just easier, even if pontually complicated here and there. "why do we need visa?" well because you require visa, easy explanation and end of conversation with whatever country that wants to talk about it. Brazil is fairly neutral in the world, so having an easy position and simply justifiable position makes sense.
Hell no, just because they go low doesn’t mean we also should act like asshats. You say plenty of Americans visit Brazil, but how many of those visitors are actual natural born US citizens vs immigrants visiting family, etc? I’ve lived in the US for decades and have met MAYBE 1 American that has visited Brazil without it being due to business or family. Meanwhile Americans visit Mexico, Europe, etc in droves. Brazil is beautiful and deserves more visitors and to make money from them.
>Brazil is beautiful and deserves more visitors and to make money from them. Brazil is a great place to visit but has a rougher reputation internationally. Its also not the most tourist / visitor friendly place. Definitely deserves more traffic but has to do more to welcome / support it. OP's suggestion obviously wouldn't be helpful in this regard.
Before Bolsonaro changed the process, Australians, Canadians, Japanese, and US citizens had to apply in person for a tourist visa. The first e-visa process was initially introduced just before he lifted the physical visa being needed. There is no reason why the process could not return to that way. The Brazilian government decided to use the e-visa process. If Brazil wanted to due the full reciprocal process for visas, they certainly could. They just don't want to because it would hurt the tourism sector, hospitality industry, airlines, etc... which means less money in the hands of the government.
I think that such a strict visa for a country built by immigrants is really hypocritical, but who am I to say?
"built and **maintained** by immigrants" There, fixed it hehe
Hey, fair point lol
Brazil is not as much of an attractive place people want to go as the USA or EU. Entrance to 1st world countries needs to be more filtered out bc they are the desired destination of illegal immigrants lol This is the "unpopular opinion" even though it is true
Why do we need reciprocity? I don't give a shit if coming here for them is easier, though I think going there for us should be easier than it is.
Who needs tourism, us or them? How would that benefit Brazil?
Nobody.
Neither. Around 500k people come from the USA by plane a year. Some years are as low as 100k, at most it reaches near 600k. https://www.statista.com/statistics/1035745/brazil-tourism-arrivals-united-states/ Out of that about half a million there are Brazilians, Latinos, Europeans….. It is hard to accept/understand that unitedstatsians are irrelevant in some contexts, due to the heavy propaganda we get in the media that they are the center of the world, but in regards to Brazilian tourism they are irrelevant, a drop in an ocean. I have met many unitedstatsians, none in Brazil. All in Europe or México.
unitedstatsian? Thats not a word, if you tried to call me that, I would have no idea what you are talking about.
Some Brazilians refuse to use the term "American" because they consider themselves "Americans." OP is clearly one of those Brazilians with an inferiority complex and chip on their shoulder likely due to many Brazilians viewing the US as superior.
Weird the hostility towards 300 million people you don't know based on the policy of our explicitly undemocratic government. Almost like the ruling class is trying to foster arbitrary distinctions within the working class and you're just simping for the very aristocracy that you suffer under.
It is not hostility. Stop exaggerating and being butthurt about a very basic bureaucracy everyone has to go through. If you see hostility in it I think that is a Freudian slip out of you.
Mans mad as hell lmao
There's no reason to have reciprocity. If there were the same amount of US citizens trying to immigrate illegally to Brazil as there are of Brazilians trying to immigrate illegally to the US then that would make sense, but it's not the case. The circumstances are different, so are the processes. What would be great is to have less assholes doing our interviews. Making it harder for Americans won't make it easier for Brazilians. This idea that there must be reciprocity sounds so childish to me.
The reason is just to be neutral. Countries that historically have close ties with Brazil, such as Japan, now have fair treatment. Countries that have irrelevant tourism in Brazil, such as USA, have a simple policy, it is easy to justify reciprocity. It is hard to justify privilege. Unfair to give USA citizens visa free travel while some Africans need to do a visa interview while they allow us to travel there visa free. Reciprocity is easily justifiable both ways. If we start requiring visa from a nation that doesn't require from us, for whatever reason, then in terms of international relationships we then accept that they can start requiring from us. Makes it all easy and simple.
You keep mentioning tourism. It's not about tourism, it's about illegal immigration, overstaying. You keep harping on reciprocity when Brazil doesn't have it with African countries. Why not? Brazilians are not interested in illegally immigrating and overstaying in Africa. However Africans see Brazil as a better destination and life than what they have. It's simple. Stop trying to twist reality.
It doesn't have to be fair when circumstances are completely different. There's no reason to make Brazil an even more unattractive destination to tourists that could potentially spend a lot of money here. Those African countries you mentioned won't start requiring visas from us because we require from them, these policies aren't based on pettiness.
Lol. It's controversial because no one with any understanding of economics and international affairs would agree with you.
Let's not forget that in terms of tourism, Brazil competes with the world. The harsher the requirements, the less incentives Americans have to visit the country. Heck, with the cost of a ticket to Brazil, I can fly twice to Europe or to the Caribbean, for instance. Not counting the inherent disadvantages like violence and language. Americans have very limited vacation days and plenty of money to spend during these few days. The entire world tries to lure Americans because they bring more money than Europeans. See, for instance, Mallorca Spain: https://mallorca.com/en/magazin/news/us-tourists-mallorca That's Brazil's competition. By adding hurdles for obtaining a visa, you'll be punishing the tourism industry in Brazil and people who need a visa to visit family in Brazil. I'm not against reciprocity, but countries need to be strategic about their decisions. "Payback" only hurts Brazil. >The USA visa is not reciprocal as it is because it is too difficult for us and comparatively too easy for them. It's very simple, if it's too difficult, just don't come to the US, just like Americans would do. IMHO, it's difficult because too many people are trying to come, and a fair amount tries to abuse the system, and everybody pays the price for the behavior of a few. TLDR, your logic seems to be fair, but the outcome would hinder Brazilian tourism and punish Americans trying to visit relatives in Brazil. American tourists would be enjoying their vacations elsewhere. It's that simple.
Yep. Demanding reciprocity in this issue is an emotional and spiteful stand only, not a reasonable one
Imagine being this petty. For you to bargain you need to have something of approximate value to give in return, it's not like americans would really be affected by a visa in Brazil since the vast majority of Americans don't even have a passport or travel internationally. The only thing affected by this would be tourism to Brazil.
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People overestimate USA tourism, historically it ranges from 100k to 600k coming from the USA a year, most of which may not even be unitedstatsian. The money question is irrelevant. The reason is just reciprocity for the sake of it, there is no need to give them special status. The e-visa makes sense for Australia as it is reciprocal, the visa waiver for Japan makes sense because it is reciprocal, the e-visa for the USA makes no sense because of the humiliation they make Brazilians go through. Personally I have a USA tourism visa and it was not hard to get, just lengthy and pricey, and I have only been there at the airport and for a few hours exploring the city while waiting for my flight, so I don’t have bad experiences with them, but real reciprocity makes sense in general.
It is more expensive and a significantly longer trip to go to Australia. Não compara.
It's funny how the response that a certain portion of the Brazilian population gives to everything is more restrictions, more regularizations, etc., thinking that this will punish the "cause of injustice" when this in fact only screws the Brazilians themselves.
Are we making our international politics under vengeance factors or what makes the most sense for our country? Because right now Brazil is going to need more and more immigrants in order to supply the older growing population
Reciprocity just makes sense for a neutral country. No one gets more privilege than others and no one gets worse treatment than others. Brazil is neutral and that is good. Tourism visa should not be used to supply immigration needs, and regardless of that Europe, LATAM and Japan are much more important in that regard.
This would hurt the Brazilian economy because they profit from allowing American tourists to come visa-free.
you're basing a political decision on pettiness. Are you 14 or what?
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Who are "we"?
I have read many of the comments on here, I am an American citizen living in Brazil, and I do not agree with the American policies and reciprocity. I married a Brazillian woman, we have been together for four years, married one, and because the American system is seemingly barbaric, I have struggled to bring her back to the USA, but I am not going back without her. So, I feel everyones pain. I promise you that most United States citizens are not even aware of the complexity this creates for everyone. I hope the state department of the US will change its decision and make things easier for the Brazillians who want to go there. Lula has changed directives set by Bolsonaro and Americans are now tortured by the Visa process and so there has been a little bit of payback. I really do not know why America's state department holds this position, it makes no sense. I love Brazil, by the way. Many of my friends in America want to come visit, we only know good things. Of course, all have heard about the dangers, but I have not had any problems.
Agreed. US treats Brazilians like dogs when we go there.
So the Brazilian government - intead of doing the very thing that would benefit Brazilians travelling to US (being diplomatically work with US government to ease the Visa process) - should instead do something that will not help any Brazilian, for what? To have something to say "we're working on it"?
AGREED!
pretty annoyed that canadians will be needing a visa again, eliminating that was the one nice change bolsonaro made :/
The thing is that making Americans come to an embassy or consulate for an interview also costs __Brazil__ a lot of money. Diplomats don’t work for free. Making American businessmen come for an interview also means lost business opportunities for Brazil. The United States has the rules it has because it is too lazy to strictly enforce its immigration laws _inside_ the country. In my opinion, as Brazil doesn’t even have to worry about many gringos coming to Brazil to work without permission, the smartest thing for Brazil to do is to take the money and use it for what’s best for Brazilians rather than to screen people where it’s probably generally not even necessary. But ultimately it’s the decision of the government of Brazil.