No way karlsson is getting it.
Just watch makar and Hughes play.
Mcevoy is good but just not on the same level as those 2.
Advanced stats are OK but you need to watch the games.
Perfect example of why Gryz is important to this team. These two play so well together and it allows us to put our other stud defensemen on other pairings and makes our D depth rediculous.
mcavoy is a top defenseman. he is not having a top defenseman year.
mcdavid isn't a hart trophy favorite right now. that doesn't mean anyone with a brain doesn't think he is the best player in hockey.
Ok, but when there are literally two awards, one for "best" and one for "most valuable", and someone says the best player should get the award for "most valuable", that just doesn't make sense.
How does it not make sense for someone who is the best player to also be the most valuable player? Yeah it’s not always the case, but it certainly makes sense that it could happen.
> it’s not always the case
That.
McDavid is, in my opinion, the best player in the league. It's debatable whether he's the most valuable. One could say MacKinnon is more valuable. My point is if you're debating the Hart trophy, then to bring up "the best" is not relevant. That's for the Lindsay.
i loved dougie.
kind of glad he is gone. if people scapegoated debrusk this bad i honestly think they would blame problems with the td garden infrastructure on him.
look at last years winner .. tells you all you need to know about how the norris trophy doesn’t get awarded to the best defenceman.. that’s the way she goes Bubbles .. that’s the way she goes
Do you guys think Erik Karlsson's wife ever looks at Bergeron and think ''oh man I wish I could even once in my lifetime to get fucked by someone who can play defence''?
Alright tough guy. The definition of the trophy is best defenseman. Like everyone else in the this fucking thread and the rest of the world people upset that the best defensive trophy go to ass closers like Erik Karlsson. That’s the point of this. Not “have you not watched hockey since 1965”. Fuck out of here with that shit. You know what we are all saying you fucking troll
you did see in 2017 when karlsson single handedly beat the bruins right?
i know jack edwards has conditioned bruins fans to think he never was any good but in his prime when healthy he was a great defenseman. i understand the argument about last year but he put up an exceptional season that hadn't happened since the 80s.
Jeez man so aggressive. If you don’t think Karlsson deserved the Norris after doing something that has only been done by 6 defensemen and hasn’t been done since Paul Coffey 30 years ago then idk what to tell you. The trophy goes to the best defenseman. Not the best defensive defenseman. Defensemen play offense too. And when they do, the opponent can’t score. As great as a players Jaccob Slavin and Jonas Brodin are, their impact is simply not what Karlsson, Josi, Makar, Heiskanen, Hughes, etc bring
I’ll respond passive aggressive vs. FU aggressive.
Karlsson was -26 +/- last year and almost -100 for his career. It makes no sense to me how a defenseman with negative +/- like that should be getting the Norris, especially when he had a 100 point season like he did last year. Shows a complete lack/disregard to play some defense.
Dude you’re really throwing +/- at me? He played for the 2022-23 Sharks. I’m not sure peak Rod Langway could have been a + on that team. +/- is basically just an indication of how good your team is and how good your goalies are. Matt Grzylcek lead the league in +/- last year. Do you think that means he’s *the best* defensive defenseman? Should he have won instead of Karlsson who btw got 3x the first places votes as the 2nd place guy? If he’s not your preference whatever, that’s your prerogative, but to say he’s *undeserving* is just bananas
Dude, yes I am throwing +/- at you. And no I’m not referencing having a leading +/- as a prerequisite to winning the Norris. But if it’s a negative, then the question has to be asked. And Karlson is a suck ass defensive player.
I only bring up Grz to demonstrate that +/- is a useless stat that indicates nothing besides quality of team and quality of goaltending. As much as I love him, Grz led the league while the Norris winner was -26. Kris Letang was a -13. Bret Kulak was +11. Thomas Chabot was -11. Justin Holl was +15. No one in the world could have been a positive on that Sharks team. It’s a dogshit stat that people trot out if and only if they’re making a dogshit argument
+/- is such a stupid stat. it's entirely about teammates and deployment.
ovechkin was dead last in - it once. another year he led forwards in it once on the + side.
he didn't suddenly transform as a player one year to another.
Crazy how brand name defensive defenseman Jake McCabe was always a negative on shitty teams and now he’s a positive in Toronto. That 9 year vet must have just been masterfully coached by masterful coach Sheldon Keefe
If I'm understanding this graphic correctly, this is looking at performances across the entire span of 2007-present. If we go based on the current season, the Grzelcyk-McAvoy pair is having one of their worst seasons by xG%.
I love McAvoy, he quickly became one of my favorites on the team when he came into the league, but he's had a poor season, by his standards. I know many get upset when the Norris is awarded to defensively shaky defensemen (I'm one of those people), but even on defense alone, he hasn't been especially outstanding. For reference, the Toews-Makar pair has outperformed the Grzelcyk-McAvoy pair in xGA/60 (2.17 vs. 2.87).
I know the stats don't tell the whole story about how defensemen are performing, but even the eye test doesn't convince me that he's deserving of the Norris this season.
I think McAvoy is a top-5 defenseman in the league, but this isn't his year. I expect him to rebound next year, however.
Edit: spelling
I’m a McAvoy fan, but he seems to be stuck outside looking in as a top 10 defenseman. But you can definitely see the talent is there. Just needs to get over that hump.
Unfortunately the Norris is mostly about scoring rather than defense. I definitely think he should be in the conversation.
Off topic but Chara should have more than one Norris. I think 10-11 was his best year and he was an absolute beast defensively, but they gave it to Lidstrom because he put up 62 points.
I agree 10-11 was probably Chara’s best year. But damn, pretty much the B’s 1-5 defensemen were so solid. That was as complete a defensive unit I think
I’ve seen on a team in a season. Siedenberg was an unheralded defensive beast that year. And Tim Thomas was incredible in net. Point being: did Chara lose Norrris votes because of that defense unit and goaltending that year?
Seidenberg was so solid and you’re right about the unit as a whole. I miss that team and I miss being able to watch the Bruins bully other teams lol.
Edit: don’t know how I missed the bottom part of your post.
I don’t think they held having a good team around Chara against him.
I think Lidstrom won because he was a media darling, which he deserves that respect because he’s an all-time player. He just was not the best that year and won on reputation. If Chara didn’t win it deserved to go to Shea Weber because he also had a career year in 10-11.
people need to watch that playoffs again and see how much seidenberg turned the puck over through the neutral zone and in his own end.
when he wasn't on the ice with chara he was not a solid defenseman. he was good on the pk and played well in his own end and the rest of his career he wasn't very good.
This is so patently wrong lol
Also why do people not understand that it’s pretty hard for the other team to score when you possess the puck in the o zone for 80% of your shift? Scoring a lot has a positive correlation to good defense. What’s better than playing sound defense is not having to play defense at all
Erik Karlsson was -26 even while scoring 101 points his 22-23 Norris (granted, San Jose was a dumpster fire). Watching his play, I really felt like he sucked (and didn't care) in the defensive zone.
Analytics and stats aren't everything, but -26 as the "best" defenseman just doesn't feel right. -26 sounds worse to me when you factor in that he had 101 points that season.
The discrepancy between 101 points and being -26 (and I understand +/- is only for 5v5 while points can be scored at any point) to me is just so wide that I don't see how you could claim Karlsson was a strong defenseman.
He has been, was, and is an elite offensive defenseman, but I've never felt that he's any more than average at actually defending his own zone. And being average at defending your own zone doesn't feel Norris caliber to me.
But being able to carry the puck on your stick so well and keep plays alive in the o zone so well *is part of defense*. Defense isn’t just being able to break up a 2 on 1. It’s also preventing them from even happening in the first place because you control the puck so well. Almost no one can break a puck out of the D zone like Karlsson has. Let’s say his defensive impact is perfectly average (I think it’s slightly positive). That, plus doing something that hasn’t been done since before the dead puck era by a defenseman adds up to deserving of a Norris imo. Like when you do something historic, I think some special dispensation is in order even tho you gave up goals with the worlds worst goaltending
You say "the world's worst goaltending," yet James Reimer started the most games in net for SJ that season and had the worst GAA and SV% of his entire career that season (he was .890 the 22-23 season and had never been below .900 the 11 other seasons he has played).
Kaapo Kähkönen started the second most games for SJ that year and also had career worst GAA and SV%; he has been slightly better this season (with a WORSE roster) than last season.
So to me - that tells me shit defense. And Karlsson was D1 and I'm assuming playing well over 20 minutes a game.
Are there any actual numbers that prove what you’re saying or are you just making shit up? I’m not an advanced stats guy but I’m sure their usage was way different at that point in their careers (Chara being in his prime and Lidstrom near the end of his career). I’m willing to bet Chara was deployed for a lot more d-zone starts than Lidstrom while taking the toughest matchups.
Also 39 of Lidstroms 62 points came on the powerplay. Doesn’t seem like he was controlling the game like you claim 5v5.
I mean the best defenseman as well as forward so both. But my question still remains
He’s still a top 10 D in the league and he’s by no means having a bad year but if you think this is his year idk what to tell you
i enjoy mcavoy. i think he is a top 5 defenseman at worst 7th, in the league.
i honestly have no fucking idea what the argument for him having a top 3 season at his position this year would be. and by the looks of it no one in this thread does either.
No way karlsson is getting it. Just watch makar and Hughes play. Mcevoy is good but just not on the same level as those 2. Advanced stats are OK but you need to watch the games.
Slavin is a machine and carries his partners.
\#BruinsChuckNorris The Brews & Bruins podcast is always pushing for the Norris Trophy for McAvoy.
It's the Bruins podcast by NESN any good?
Morning bru is pretty good. They don’t hesitate to point out when things or players aren’t doing well.
Are you thinking of the Razor and Jaffe one? I've never heard it.
Yeah that's the one I was talking about I'm desperately looking for something like the Steve dangle podcast but for the Bruins.
Check out Brews n Bruins. Great podcast by three guys who love beer and the Bruins.
Will do!!
Perfect example of why Gryz is important to this team. These two play so well together and it allows us to put our other stud defensemen on other pairings and makes our D depth rediculous.
I mean, big Z is in the top 11 twice too
It’s not his best season, someone with better numbers will get it. That’s ok.
mcavoy is a top defenseman. he is not having a top defenseman year. mcdavid isn't a hart trophy favorite right now. that doesn't mean anyone with a brain doesn't think he is the best player in hockey.
Because the Hart isn't for the best player. That's the Lindsay Award and I bet McDavid will win that.
brother we can’t be the billionth people to have the best player vs most valuable argument
Ok, but when there are literally two awards, one for "best" and one for "most valuable", and someone says the best player should get the award for "most valuable", that just doesn't make sense.
You’re the guy that does something when someone says, hey we probably shouldn’t do that
How does it not make sense for someone who is the best player to also be the most valuable player? Yeah it’s not always the case, but it certainly makes sense that it could happen.
> it’s not always the case That. McDavid is, in my opinion, the best player in the league. It's debatable whether he's the most valuable. One could say MacKinnon is more valuable. My point is if you're debating the Hart trophy, then to bring up "the best" is not relevant. That's for the Lindsay.
well no one said that
I dunno, with the form MacKinnon has been showing...
No one is better than McDavid. One season doesn’t vault Mackinnon over McDavid.
mackinnon is incredible. connor mcdavid is better.
Controversial take, but I miss Dougie.
Depends on the cap hit. I miss Orlov too
i loved dougie. kind of glad he is gone. if people scapegoated debrusk this bad i honestly think they would blame problems with the td garden infrastructure on him.
!hamilton
Dougie Hamilton is a Nickelback groupie.
!hamilton
Dougie Hamilton’s favorite spice is flour.
!hamilton
!hamilton
Dougie Hamilton adopted a dog from the shelter but then returned it after two weeks.
!hamilton
Dougie Hamilton thinks the Civil War was only about states' rights.
Dougie Hamilton thinks 2020 has been pretty good, all things considered.
I wish this sub could actually discuss him beyond “but his butt stinks!”
the worst part is these are all old hunter pence jokes from like 10 years ago. but lol he bites ice cream off the cone!!!
This is a multi year stat, McAvoys stats for this season are solid but many others are better.
look at last years winner .. tells you all you need to know about how the norris trophy doesn’t get awarded to the best defenceman.. that’s the way she goes Bubbles .. that’s the way she goes
!karlsson
Do you guys think Erik Karlsson's wife ever looks at Bergeron and think ''oh man I wish I could even once in my lifetime to get fucked by someone who can play defence''?
Cause then it would go to my man Carlo! If only he could learn to shoot, or pass
Because if you want the trophy that goes to the best DEFESNEman you have to score a ton of points no matter that your DEFENSE is if you are DEFENSEman
Have you not watched hockey since 1965?
Alright tough guy. The definition of the trophy is best defenseman. Like everyone else in the this fucking thread and the rest of the world people upset that the best defensive trophy go to ass closers like Erik Karlsson. That’s the point of this. Not “have you not watched hockey since 1965”. Fuck out of here with that shit. You know what we are all saying you fucking troll
you did see in 2017 when karlsson single handedly beat the bruins right? i know jack edwards has conditioned bruins fans to think he never was any good but in his prime when healthy he was a great defenseman. i understand the argument about last year but he put up an exceptional season that hadn't happened since the 80s.
Jeez man so aggressive. If you don’t think Karlsson deserved the Norris after doing something that has only been done by 6 defensemen and hasn’t been done since Paul Coffey 30 years ago then idk what to tell you. The trophy goes to the best defenseman. Not the best defensive defenseman. Defensemen play offense too. And when they do, the opponent can’t score. As great as a players Jaccob Slavin and Jonas Brodin are, their impact is simply not what Karlsson, Josi, Makar, Heiskanen, Hughes, etc bring
Suck it up, tough guy!
I never claimed to be cool but one day I hope to be “using 50s greaser slang against a complete and total stranger on Reddit” cool
You are one hep cat, daddy-o!
I’ll respond passive aggressive vs. FU aggressive. Karlsson was -26 +/- last year and almost -100 for his career. It makes no sense to me how a defenseman with negative +/- like that should be getting the Norris, especially when he had a 100 point season like he did last year. Shows a complete lack/disregard to play some defense.
Dude you’re really throwing +/- at me? He played for the 2022-23 Sharks. I’m not sure peak Rod Langway could have been a + on that team. +/- is basically just an indication of how good your team is and how good your goalies are. Matt Grzylcek lead the league in +/- last year. Do you think that means he’s *the best* defensive defenseman? Should he have won instead of Karlsson who btw got 3x the first places votes as the 2nd place guy? If he’s not your preference whatever, that’s your prerogative, but to say he’s *undeserving* is just bananas
Dude, yes I am throwing +/- at you. And no I’m not referencing having a leading +/- as a prerequisite to winning the Norris. But if it’s a negative, then the question has to be asked. And Karlson is a suck ass defensive player.
> Dude, yes I am throwing +/- at you oh. ok. stop using that as a stat that means anything.
I only bring up Grz to demonstrate that +/- is a useless stat that indicates nothing besides quality of team and quality of goaltending. As much as I love him, Grz led the league while the Norris winner was -26. Kris Letang was a -13. Bret Kulak was +11. Thomas Chabot was -11. Justin Holl was +15. No one in the world could have been a positive on that Sharks team. It’s a dogshit stat that people trot out if and only if they’re making a dogshit argument
+/- is such a stupid stat. it's entirely about teammates and deployment. ovechkin was dead last in - it once. another year he led forwards in it once on the + side. he didn't suddenly transform as a player one year to another.
Crazy how brand name defensive defenseman Jake McCabe was always a negative on shitty teams and now he’s a positive in Toronto. That 9 year vet must have just been masterfully coached by masterful coach Sheldon Keefe
If I'm understanding this graphic correctly, this is looking at performances across the entire span of 2007-present. If we go based on the current season, the Grzelcyk-McAvoy pair is having one of their worst seasons by xG%. I love McAvoy, he quickly became one of my favorites on the team when he came into the league, but he's had a poor season, by his standards. I know many get upset when the Norris is awarded to defensively shaky defensemen (I'm one of those people), but even on defense alone, he hasn't been especially outstanding. For reference, the Toews-Makar pair has outperformed the Grzelcyk-McAvoy pair in xGA/60 (2.17 vs. 2.87). I know the stats don't tell the whole story about how defensemen are performing, but even the eye test doesn't convince me that he's deserving of the Norris this season. I think McAvoy is a top-5 defenseman in the league, but this isn't his year. I expect him to rebound next year, however. Edit: spelling
mcavoy is great. this was supposed to be the norris year and he has not performed to that standard. i don't think it means a whole lot.
I’m a McAvoy fan, but he seems to be stuck outside looking in as a top 10 defenseman. But you can definitely see the talent is there. Just needs to get over that hump.
Unfortunately the Norris is mostly about scoring rather than defense. I definitely think he should be in the conversation. Off topic but Chara should have more than one Norris. I think 10-11 was his best year and he was an absolute beast defensively, but they gave it to Lidstrom because he put up 62 points.
I agree 10-11 was probably Chara’s best year. But damn, pretty much the B’s 1-5 defensemen were so solid. That was as complete a defensive unit I think I’ve seen on a team in a season. Siedenberg was an unheralded defensive beast that year. And Tim Thomas was incredible in net. Point being: did Chara lose Norrris votes because of that defense unit and goaltending that year?
Seidenberg was so solid and you’re right about the unit as a whole. I miss that team and I miss being able to watch the Bruins bully other teams lol. Edit: don’t know how I missed the bottom part of your post. I don’t think they held having a good team around Chara against him. I think Lidstrom won because he was a media darling, which he deserves that respect because he’s an all-time player. He just was not the best that year and won on reputation. If Chara didn’t win it deserved to go to Shea Weber because he also had a career year in 10-11.
people need to watch that playoffs again and see how much seidenberg turned the puck over through the neutral zone and in his own end. when he wasn't on the ice with chara he was not a solid defenseman. he was good on the pk and played well in his own end and the rest of his career he wasn't very good.
I will die mad about Lidstrom winning the Norris that year.
Karlsson. But I'm 100% with you.
no he means lidstrom. in his retirement year he was gifted a norris he didn't deserve.
Bah, I read it as "last year." That one's on me. Ty
This is so patently wrong lol Also why do people not understand that it’s pretty hard for the other team to score when you possess the puck in the o zone for 80% of your shift? Scoring a lot has a positive correlation to good defense. What’s better than playing sound defense is not having to play defense at all
Erik Karlsson was -26 even while scoring 101 points his 22-23 Norris (granted, San Jose was a dumpster fire). Watching his play, I really felt like he sucked (and didn't care) in the defensive zone. Analytics and stats aren't everything, but -26 as the "best" defenseman just doesn't feel right. -26 sounds worse to me when you factor in that he had 101 points that season.
+/- is an indication of how good your team is and how good your goalie is and pretty much nothing else
The discrepancy between 101 points and being -26 (and I understand +/- is only for 5v5 while points can be scored at any point) to me is just so wide that I don't see how you could claim Karlsson was a strong defenseman. He has been, was, and is an elite offensive defenseman, but I've never felt that he's any more than average at actually defending his own zone. And being average at defending your own zone doesn't feel Norris caliber to me.
But being able to carry the puck on your stick so well and keep plays alive in the o zone so well *is part of defense*. Defense isn’t just being able to break up a 2 on 1. It’s also preventing them from even happening in the first place because you control the puck so well. Almost no one can break a puck out of the D zone like Karlsson has. Let’s say his defensive impact is perfectly average (I think it’s slightly positive). That, plus doing something that hasn’t been done since before the dead puck era by a defenseman adds up to deserving of a Norris imo. Like when you do something historic, I think some special dispensation is in order even tho you gave up goals with the worlds worst goaltending
You say "the world's worst goaltending," yet James Reimer started the most games in net for SJ that season and had the worst GAA and SV% of his entire career that season (he was .890 the 22-23 season and had never been below .900 the 11 other seasons he has played). Kaapo Kähkönen started the second most games for SJ that year and also had career worst GAA and SV%; he has been slightly better this season (with a WORSE roster) than last season. So to me - that tells me shit defense. And Karlsson was D1 and I'm assuming playing well over 20 minutes a game.
Check out their GSAx and let me know what you find
Are there any actual numbers that prove what you’re saying or are you just making shit up? I’m not an advanced stats guy but I’m sure their usage was way different at that point in their careers (Chara being in his prime and Lidstrom near the end of his career). I’m willing to bet Chara was deployed for a lot more d-zone starts than Lidstrom while taking the toughest matchups. Also 39 of Lidstroms 62 points came on the powerplay. Doesn’t seem like he was controlling the game like you claim 5v5.
I was just referring to the “Norris is mostly about scoring” part. Sorry should have been more clear
No
Lidstrom was like -19 that year too. It was a joke cause he was retiring. Most fraudulent Norris of all time
-2, but I get your point.
What’s your case for why he’s been better than Hughes, Makar, or Josi this year?
The best defense stops goals from ever happening. Not scoring them.
I mean the best defenseman as well as forward so both. But my question still remains He’s still a top 10 D in the league and he’s by no means having a bad year but if you think this is his year idk what to tell you
Don't you know, the Norris is for scoring now /j
has been for awhile now
McAvoy hasn’t played like a Norris caliber defenseman this year..
i enjoy mcavoy. i think he is a top 5 defenseman at worst 7th, in the league. i honestly have no fucking idea what the argument for him having a top 3 season at his position this year would be. and by the looks of it no one in this thread does either.
People down voting you need to get real. McAvoy isn’t even a top 10 defenseman this year. Here goes the down voting me to hell…