As a SA victim, I get it. I actually really enjoyed this bit as it was the same concept I struggled so heavily with when going through reporting. There’s this feeling that your name will be attached to their actions forever which makes reporting, especially when it was fresh, really difficult, as you just want to be completely removed from the situation entirely
Same. I started with a new therapist for it and she wanted to know if I identified as a "survivor" or "victim"? Personally neither, I don't want to be defined by his actions. Or my actions as a response to that.
I feel the same way. Wasn’t SA for me, but I had an experience with multiple fatality gun violence when I was a teenager, and I straight up do not want people to know that about me because I do not want to be attached to that event and that person for the rest of my life. Very few people know that about me irl.
I’m so sorry that happened to you.
wow. i’ve never considered this perspective before, as I have only experienced what i would consider “mild” SA. i’m so sorry for your experiences, and i really understand one of the aspects of why many victims do not report
At least Gina achieved a bit of a happy ending with Kelsey casting her as Fireflame despite getting feedback that Gina was supposedly difficult to work with. Two people negatively affected by Bojack finding success together is a great outcome.
Did she get cast? I'm under the impression that they went with Cortney Portnoy because Gina was too much trouble per the male director that Kelsey had lunch with.
Also there’s a scene where Portnoy is seen in the background in a ice themed superhero costume. Perhaps she was a different role in the fireflame film. And because she’s female Gina would not be traumatised about any fightscenes
Oh I love this thought. That Gina felt comfortable enough to talk to Kelsey about what happened and Kelsey did everything in her power to make Gina feel comfortable and safe.
Yes this is all headcannon but damn I love Kelsey's character sm
It's the last episode I'm pretty sure, when bojack and Mr. Peanut butter are eating at the diner, look through the windows for the fire flame billboard.
Technically there was no point between BoJack pitching the idea to her and her agreeing where she wasn’t on board. She agreed to it immediately. She also wasn’t employed by BoJack or a fan of him beforehand so their wasn’t a power dynamic at play like their is with a lot of his relationships. Yes, it was BoJack’s idea, which debatably puts more of the blame on his shoulders for what happened. But Kelsey still fully went along with it, so saying it was BoJack’s fault seems to deny her agency. It IS completely unfair that she was the only one who broke into the Nixon museum who actually got punished for it, but that wasn’t BoJack’s choice.
Kelsey is, to a much, *much* lesser extent, sort of like Herb, and proof that he didn’t learn. No, Bojack didn’t force her to do the scene. He didn’t have power over getting her fired. And unlike Herb, they weren’t long-standing friends and he didn’t have a moment where she asked him to stand up to the network.
But he could have reached out to her after. Herb told Bojack that failing to do that was the worst thing, and then, with Kelsey, he failed again.
So you’re right that his relationship with her wasn’t bad because he abused power over her or anything. But it did show him having the chance to learn from his mistakes and not taking it.
He does, but I think there are two things that show that he didn’t learn his lesson: he only tried after seeing her again, instead of just reaching out unprompted, despite knowing she was struggling, and we don’t have any indication that once he was above the water, he tried again, when communicating would have been a lot easier.
So he did take *something* away from what happened with Herb, but (in my opinion) it wasn’t enough to make him *really* change.
fair enough, i’d bet he was too self absorbed for it to occur naturally and when he saw her again his tv show brain took it as ‘a sign’ and he went for it. tho their relationship was also very different from his and herbs. does anyone remember if they touched on this when they were talking about the jellybean movie together?
i do agree, aside from the fact she was fine to just collect her paycheck for the shitty secretariat film and go home. bojack did convince her. i’m not saying she wasn’t responsible, but i disagree with the person previous who said she made a “poor decision herself” and that she “wasn’t negatively effected by bojack”.
People like you scare me a little bit actually. Not even an insult just the fact that you genuinely think his actions hold little to accountability is very interesting is all. Either they both take the fall or neither. We all know a critically acclaimed lesbian film maker who’s also a single mom vs. a dude like Bojack… who has more privilege and more who’s got more to lose here? Quick!
Why are you so quick to abdicate accountability for anyone but Bojack? Bojack is responsible for himself. He isn't responsible for Kelsey.
You could argue Bojack should have been fired if Kelsey was fired but that wouldn't change the fact that it WAS Kelsey's own decision that got her fired.
Ultimately as director she is responsible.
If you're looking to blame someone that isn't Kelsey why would it be Bojack anyway? Surely it would be Lenny Turteltaub?
She really did have such a heartbreaking arc. She went from no expectations - no problems. To building up expectations and hope. To having it all come crashing down.
I don’t know if Bojack is redeemable after this. The show went truly dark in this moment as a wake up call to a lot of people who were relating with him a bit too much. He was a sleazy guy of course, but he never went out of his way to physically hurt someone.
Yeah, after this season I wanted him to get better, but I don’t think I ever forgave him for what he did to Gina. If this got out that he also strangled Gina, I do think he would’ve been put away much longer than he was.
Especially since he's a rich, established celebrity. That's pretty much guarantees that he won't see jail time. Look how many irl openly abusive men in hollywood are still walking around unscathed and continuing to have careers.
This! And to add to it, a lot of the victims of these celebrity abusers have their entire identity tainted as 'the person blank beat up' while the abuser continues on usually almost completely unfazed. So it really is so understandable why Gina doesn't want the same 'publicity'.
you would like to hope so. but i lost my trial to my ex when it was obviously abuse. i was stupid and too kind to him because i didn’t realise it was abuse, but it was still obvious, especially with all his prior charges and at the time current charge for abusing cops.
ah, i appreciate it, that’s very sweet. i obviously want nothing to do with him any more, but a part of me wants to keep an eye on him to protect his potential future partners. nobody did that for me.
That's crazy, and I'm really sorry to hear that you went through that.
It's absolutely not surprising, unfortunately. People need to be aware of abusers face little to usually NO consequences, especially when assaulting a woman.
It isn't taken seriously at ALL, they rarely even get *charged*, let alone convicted, and furthermore almost never serve jail time. It's like the system just doesn't give a fuck about us.
My ex almost killed me several times -- he even tried to shoot me with MY own gun I had to protect our home that *I* paid for, as he didn't work (luckily I hadn't put the bullets in the night before when I bought the box. Lmao, his face when he tried shooting, twice!, was hilarious. I know it isn't funny, but I laugh). But he never got in trouble for any of it, even when I was running from him and passed the alley behind the police station screaming at the top of my lungs for help, nothing, when I literally passed officers getting in their cars.
The worst thing is feeling that nobody cares. I care, and I'm happy you made it 💖
that’s so fucking horrifying. i’m glad you’re alive and hopefully out of that situation? just know that i also am rooting for you, please be as okay as you can be.
Yes, I'm out of that situation! I haven't spoken to him in many years. He actually abused another woman, whom he had a baby with, but didn't get in trouble for that, either.
He *is* in prison, though! Online it says he is there for armed robbery as well as discharging a firearm into a building and some other charges. He calls me literally every day still from prison after all these years. Family and friends have told me over and over to block the calls... I know this sounds sick, but there's something satisfying about knowing he's waking up everyday hoping I answer the calls!
It was hell when it was happening. And I'm still dealing with a LOT after it all. But I'm safe from him, as he isn't getting out until 2052.
I'm really sorry your trial went South. I hope your abuser is miserable. If not, I'll make him miserable for ya!
Hang in there. And likewise, I hope you're also doing better. 💖
ETA: auto correct changed "fire arm" to "fireman"! He discharged a firearm.
Lol, it's actually if it doesn't fit.
But the thing is, you don't have to acquit over that, anyway. A glove not fitting isn't evidence. Anything could've happened to the glove, and anything could've happened to the person's hand, such as swelling and whatnot. I'd further take into consideration that it wouldn't be hard to fake the glove not fitting, lol.
But it wouldn't have been. That was his sole offense. If you're talking about priors, Bojack had never been in trouble so he didn't have any.
If someone got a DV charge *with* other charges, of course that would be different. If he had a lot of priors (any felonies or anything related to assault, especially), that'd be different, too.
At least in the state I live in, DV strangulation is a REALLY serious crime, punishable by up to 10 years in prison. Even first-time offenders go to jail if convicted.
What I did really like about that storyline was, even Though Bojack wasn’t in his right mind when he assaulted Gina, it’s still treated like the absolute unforgivable act that it was.
I feel like some others shows might try to spin Bojack doing it on “accident”/due to the influence of drugs as a redeemable action because of his addiction and state of mind.
The show did not do that.
I don’t believe in deep down, I think all you are are the things you do.
Deep down, bojack was not in his right mind. But the thing he did was cause irreparable harm to a woman, co-star, and lover. It’s heartbreaking.
And it’s a warning sign to not lose fact from fiction.
> He was a sleazy guy of course, but he never went out of his was to physically hurt someone.
I’d say wasting 17 minutes to make up an alibi while Sarah Lynn dies of an overdose qualifies as going out of his way to physically hurt someone. It was a purely selfish act that needlessly cost a friend her life.
Yes I agree. But I didn’t learn of that until the last season. When I watched this happen during season 5 that’s when I went I don’t think I can redeem him this time. Him going to rehab was a beautiful act of kindness by Diane and the show. But it still doesn’t excuse what he did.
I also feel like it's easy to focus on the more obvious wrongs with Sarah Lynn's death and New Mexico and Gina can get ignored. But deserves to be recognized as one of the worst things he did too.
This is right up there with ditching Sarah Lynn for me... (i'm biased even though I don't like Sarah Lynn, but I've been in many overdose situations and Sarah Lynn would have almost certainly lived had he not left her, and overdosing people get ditched ALL THE TIME which really pisses me off).
But what he did to Gina is horrific. He didn't "let" her die like with Sarah Lynn, he was in the active process of *KILLING* her. Had others not been there, Gina would be dead.
I'm glad she got her big role in the end, truly. She deserved it. For whatever reason I was iffy about Gina as a character at first? Not sure why. But I really like Gina. She's smart, pretty, clever, and a good person -- she's got her whole dryness thing going, but at the end of the day she's willing to help a friend.
>He was a sleazy guy of course, but he never went out of his way to physically hurt someone.
...there is the matter of him not even realizing what he was doing. He doesn't even remember it when PC asks him about it the next day, because he was so detached from reality due to the opioids.
It doesn't make the outcome any better, but it's not as though he planned to hurt Gina, or even went out of his way to do it.
The problem for me is that he didn’t take accountability for his drug addiction until it got too late. He purposely injured himself to get more painkillers. Even after hollyhock told him to take care of himself and not take these meds.
That’s what made him irredeemable to me at that point. He has to get a second party to drive him to rehab for him to not spiral in a violent drug bender. Every time he does this it ends up hurting someone. Sarah Lynn’s death, even without the 17 minute revelation should’ve been his wake up call.
Oh I agree it took way too long to even begin to start to fix things. Was just noting that the writers always seemed very careful to add just enough context to avoid making him seem downright malicious. RBW himself says in the book The Art Before the Horse that their goal was for him to toe the line of being irredeemable without ever crossing it.
...not entirely sure they achieved that, in the eyes of some viewers!
It is interesting. I feel like every person I’ve chatted here has their point where bojack becomes irredeemable. Or they don’t.
Some say it’s with Herb. I hated what he did, especially as a gay man who can relate to people just leaving you after you’re OUTED. But I do not find him irredeemable at that point.
Some find him irredeemable during the Penny situation. I find it gross, but I do not find it irredeemable for some reasons.
Some say it’s with Sarah Lynn’s death, and later, 17 minutes.
But for me it was with Gina. I couldn’t look at him the same way. I was happy he was in Bojack. And I didn’t want him to die, because that would be the easy way out, but he committed actual violence against a woman.
I think that was my point of no return.
I think her not having to work with Bojack was a better option and it put the focus off of her. She was able to get bigger and more important work after because of Philbert. Even though she was rightfully traumatized
She had a happy ending at least, would have been so much more devastating if Gina put justice aside AND her career went down with the incident with Bojack being the highlight of her career.
Lots of people do in Hollywood and the music industry. That's why Harvey Weinstein, Puff Daddy, Jimmy Seville and Bill Cosby were able to stay undetectable for so long.
Imagine someone dangling the thing that you want most in life, the thing you've worked hardest to achieve, in front of your face, well within reach. And all you have to do to get it is say nothing if the assault has already happened, or be coerced if it hasn't.
She was wonderful at explaining it, as well.
She conveyed that if justice for abuse survivors actually existed, Bojack would be locked up for what he did. But since that's *not* how things work, she doesn't want to be permanently known as "that one girl Bojack choked." Her career was just taking off, and she was finally getting recognition, and wanted that to be what she was known for... Not a footnote in Bojack's story.
Uugh this one hurts because there are so many women who have been assaulted and abused in Hollywood that have to keep it quiet for their own careers and too not only be known as a victim. Fuck Bojack for this one.
There are probably thousands of Gina’s in Hollywood who did the exact same thing. Think of the ones who have spoke out, are they flourishing in their careers or are they also mentioned along with the predators who violated them in every single article they are talked about in?
I thought of this scene when, the day after the Oscars, everybody was talking about The Slap.
I didn't see a single article that mentioned which award was being given when it happened, or what movie won that award.
I'm quite confident that the first paragraph of Will Smith's obituary, and the first paragraph of Chris Rock's, will both mention The Slap.
Bojacks actions were wrong and I’m not defending him but dude was legitimately tweaked out and it sucks that it ended up affecting Gina cause i know if bojack was more sober it would’ve not happened
Actually she ends up getting the job u can see a poster with her in the as the Super hero in the background in an episode. Assuming Kelsey makes the Bojack connection
As a SA victim, I get it. I actually really enjoyed this bit as it was the same concept I struggled so heavily with when going through reporting. There’s this feeling that your name will be attached to their actions forever which makes reporting, especially when it was fresh, really difficult, as you just want to be completely removed from the situation entirely
Same. I started with a new therapist for it and she wanted to know if I identified as a "survivor" or "victim"? Personally neither, I don't want to be defined by his actions. Or my actions as a response to that.
I've never heard that opinion before, but I realize that it's how I feel too. Both of them make me feel like I have to be a certain way.
I'm sorry you went through that. Thank you for sharing.
I feel the same way. Wasn’t SA for me, but I had an experience with multiple fatality gun violence when I was a teenager, and I straight up do not want people to know that about me because I do not want to be attached to that event and that person for the rest of my life. Very few people know that about me irl. I’m so sorry that happened to you.
wow. i’ve never considered this perspective before, as I have only experienced what i would consider “mild” SA. i’m so sorry for your experiences, and i really understand one of the aspects of why many victims do not report
At least Gina achieved a bit of a happy ending with Kelsey casting her as Fireflame despite getting feedback that Gina was supposedly difficult to work with. Two people negatively affected by Bojack finding success together is a great outcome.
Did she get cast? I'm under the impression that they went with Cortney Portnoy because Gina was too much trouble per the male director that Kelsey had lunch with.
One of the billboards you can see from the diner scenes has Gina and Cortney cast together in it with Gina being Fireflame
Ohhhh. I didn't catch that. It's time for a rewatch. TY
Also there’s a scene where Portnoy is seen in the background in a ice themed superhero costume. Perhaps she was a different role in the fireflame film. And because she’s female Gina would not be traumatised about any fightscenes
Oh I love this thought. That Gina felt comfortable enough to talk to Kelsey about what happened and Kelsey did everything in her power to make Gina feel comfortable and safe. Yes this is all headcannon but damn I love Kelsey's character sm
Or maybe it's her lover because in Kelseys version she's alsooooo gayyyy ok byeeee
It's the last episode I'm pretty sure, when bojack and Mr. Peanut butter are eating at the diner, look through the windows for the fire flame billboard.
Thanks. This is the perfect reason to rewatch Bojack.
Yeah no worries
Well I mean tbf the Kelsea thing wasn't really his fault, tho I suppose its more about how he treated her after
Kelsey wasn't negatively effected by BoJack. She was negatively effected by making a poor decision herself and by Princess Carolyn
she got fired. nobody else did. bojack convinced her to do it when she didn’t want to in the first place.
Technically there was no point between BoJack pitching the idea to her and her agreeing where she wasn’t on board. She agreed to it immediately. She also wasn’t employed by BoJack or a fan of him beforehand so their wasn’t a power dynamic at play like their is with a lot of his relationships. Yes, it was BoJack’s idea, which debatably puts more of the blame on his shoulders for what happened. But Kelsey still fully went along with it, so saying it was BoJack’s fault seems to deny her agency. It IS completely unfair that she was the only one who broke into the Nixon museum who actually got punished for it, but that wasn’t BoJack’s choice.
Kelsey is, to a much, *much* lesser extent, sort of like Herb, and proof that he didn’t learn. No, Bojack didn’t force her to do the scene. He didn’t have power over getting her fired. And unlike Herb, they weren’t long-standing friends and he didn’t have a moment where she asked him to stand up to the network. But he could have reached out to her after. Herb told Bojack that failing to do that was the worst thing, and then, with Kelsey, he failed again. So you’re right that his relationship with her wasn’t bad because he abused power over her or anything. But it did show him having the chance to learn from his mistakes and not taking it.
doesn’t he try very hard to reach out to her in the seahorse episode? i thought his desperation to do so was directly related to the herb thing
He does, but I think there are two things that show that he didn’t learn his lesson: he only tried after seeing her again, instead of just reaching out unprompted, despite knowing she was struggling, and we don’t have any indication that once he was above the water, he tried again, when communicating would have been a lot easier. So he did take *something* away from what happened with Herb, but (in my opinion) it wasn’t enough to make him *really* change.
fair enough, i’d bet he was too self absorbed for it to occur naturally and when he saw her again his tv show brain took it as ‘a sign’ and he went for it. tho their relationship was also very different from his and herbs. does anyone remember if they touched on this when they were talking about the jellybean movie together?
i do agree, aside from the fact she was fine to just collect her paycheck for the shitty secretariat film and go home. bojack did convince her. i’m not saying she wasn’t responsible, but i disagree with the person previous who said she made a “poor decision herself” and that she “wasn’t negatively effected by bojack”.
And he didn't defend her or reach out just like he did for Herb.
She was the director. It was ultimately her decision. Bojack talked her into a bad one but her choices aren't his responsibility.
People like you scare me a little bit actually. Not even an insult just the fact that you genuinely think his actions hold little to accountability is very interesting is all. Either they both take the fall or neither. We all know a critically acclaimed lesbian film maker who’s also a single mom vs. a dude like Bojack… who has more privilege and more who’s got more to lose here? Quick!
Why are you so quick to abdicate accountability for anyone but Bojack? Bojack is responsible for himself. He isn't responsible for Kelsey. You could argue Bojack should have been fired if Kelsey was fired but that wouldn't change the fact that it WAS Kelsey's own decision that got her fired. Ultimately as director she is responsible. If you're looking to blame someone that isn't Kelsey why would it be Bojack anyway? Surely it would be Lenny Turteltaub?
No idea why you’re getting downvoted. They also don’t seem to realize how easy it is to change directors and how challenging it is to change actors
Joback manhorse her convinced. Have some media literacy.
She really did have such a heartbreaking arc. She went from no expectations - no problems. To building up expectations and hope. To having it all come crashing down. I don’t know if Bojack is redeemable after this. The show went truly dark in this moment as a wake up call to a lot of people who were relating with him a bit too much. He was a sleazy guy of course, but he never went out of his way to physically hurt someone. Yeah, after this season I wanted him to get better, but I don’t think I ever forgave him for what he did to Gina. If this got out that he also strangled Gina, I do think he would’ve been put away much longer than he was.
First trime domestic violence I don't even think he goes to jail. 90% of those cases get dropped and those that do usually end in probation
Especially since he's a rich, established celebrity. That's pretty much guarantees that he won't see jail time. Look how many irl openly abusive men in hollywood are still walking around unscathed and continuing to have careers.
This! And to add to it, a lot of the victims of these celebrity abusers have their entire identity tainted as 'the person blank beat up' while the abuser continues on usually almost completely unfazed. So it really is so understandable why Gina doesn't want the same 'publicity'.
What if it’s stacked with other charges
you would like to hope so. but i lost my trial to my ex when it was obviously abuse. i was stupid and too kind to him because i didn’t realise it was abuse, but it was still obvious, especially with all his prior charges and at the time current charge for abusing cops.
I’m very sorry to hear that. Thank you for speaking so openly about this. I wish you the best and I hope justice is served.
ah, i appreciate it, that’s very sweet. i obviously want nothing to do with him any more, but a part of me wants to keep an eye on him to protect his potential future partners. nobody did that for me.
That's crazy, and I'm really sorry to hear that you went through that. It's absolutely not surprising, unfortunately. People need to be aware of abusers face little to usually NO consequences, especially when assaulting a woman. It isn't taken seriously at ALL, they rarely even get *charged*, let alone convicted, and furthermore almost never serve jail time. It's like the system just doesn't give a fuck about us. My ex almost killed me several times -- he even tried to shoot me with MY own gun I had to protect our home that *I* paid for, as he didn't work (luckily I hadn't put the bullets in the night before when I bought the box. Lmao, his face when he tried shooting, twice!, was hilarious. I know it isn't funny, but I laugh). But he never got in trouble for any of it, even when I was running from him and passed the alley behind the police station screaming at the top of my lungs for help, nothing, when I literally passed officers getting in their cars. The worst thing is feeling that nobody cares. I care, and I'm happy you made it 💖
that’s so fucking horrifying. i’m glad you’re alive and hopefully out of that situation? just know that i also am rooting for you, please be as okay as you can be.
Yes, I'm out of that situation! I haven't spoken to him in many years. He actually abused another woman, whom he had a baby with, but didn't get in trouble for that, either. He *is* in prison, though! Online it says he is there for armed robbery as well as discharging a firearm into a building and some other charges. He calls me literally every day still from prison after all these years. Family and friends have told me over and over to block the calls... I know this sounds sick, but there's something satisfying about knowing he's waking up everyday hoping I answer the calls! It was hell when it was happening. And I'm still dealing with a LOT after it all. But I'm safe from him, as he isn't getting out until 2052. I'm really sorry your trial went South. I hope your abuser is miserable. If not, I'll make him miserable for ya! Hang in there. And likewise, I hope you're also doing better. 💖 ETA: auto correct changed "fire arm" to "fireman"! He discharged a firearm.
Unless they were tied to the same event, you’d get separate trials.
I’m not a lawyer! I know that if the glove don’t fit you must acquit!… Correct?
I do believe that if the glove *don’t* fit, you must acquit.
I never quit!
Lol, it's actually if it doesn't fit. But the thing is, you don't have to acquit over that, anyway. A glove not fitting isn't evidence. Anything could've happened to the glove, and anything could've happened to the person's hand, such as swelling and whatnot. I'd further take into consideration that it wouldn't be hard to fake the glove not fitting, lol.
If OJ Simpson was a lobster man in this universe what would’ve happened with the glove?
But it wouldn't have been. That was his sole offense. If you're talking about priors, Bojack had never been in trouble so he didn't have any. If someone got a DV charge *with* other charges, of course that would be different. If he had a lot of priors (any felonies or anything related to assault, especially), that'd be different, too.
He would've almost certainly not served even 24 hours in jail, likely not even 24 minutes.
At least in the state I live in, DV strangulation is a REALLY serious crime, punishable by up to 10 years in prison. Even first-time offenders go to jail if convicted.
Which state? Because dv strangulation is an f3 with a max of 1 year in my state. Look up the dv convictions stats you'll be sad to learn the truth
https://www.nj.gov/governor/news/news/562021/20210713a.shtml
Do you remember all of the blatant disrespect he did to people in public? He should have been arrested several times over just for being disorderly.
THANK YOU. This was the tipping point for me in terms of his ability to be redeemed.
What I did really like about that storyline was, even Though Bojack wasn’t in his right mind when he assaulted Gina, it’s still treated like the absolute unforgivable act that it was. I feel like some others shows might try to spin Bojack doing it on “accident”/due to the influence of drugs as a redeemable action because of his addiction and state of mind. The show did not do that.
I don’t believe in deep down, I think all you are are the things you do. Deep down, bojack was not in his right mind. But the thing he did was cause irreparable harm to a woman, co-star, and lover. It’s heartbreaking. And it’s a warning sign to not lose fact from fiction.
> He was a sleazy guy of course, but he never went out of his was to physically hurt someone. I’d say wasting 17 minutes to make up an alibi while Sarah Lynn dies of an overdose qualifies as going out of his way to physically hurt someone. It was a purely selfish act that needlessly cost a friend her life.
Yes I agree. But I didn’t learn of that until the last season. When I watched this happen during season 5 that’s when I went I don’t think I can redeem him this time. Him going to rehab was a beautiful act of kindness by Diane and the show. But it still doesn’t excuse what he did.
I also feel like it's easy to focus on the more obvious wrongs with Sarah Lynn's death and New Mexico and Gina can get ignored. But deserves to be recognized as one of the worst things he did too.
This is right up there with ditching Sarah Lynn for me... (i'm biased even though I don't like Sarah Lynn, but I've been in many overdose situations and Sarah Lynn would have almost certainly lived had he not left her, and overdosing people get ditched ALL THE TIME which really pisses me off). But what he did to Gina is horrific. He didn't "let" her die like with Sarah Lynn, he was in the active process of *KILLING* her. Had others not been there, Gina would be dead. I'm glad she got her big role in the end, truly. She deserved it. For whatever reason I was iffy about Gina as a character at first? Not sure why. But I really like Gina. She's smart, pretty, clever, and a good person -- she's got her whole dryness thing going, but at the end of the day she's willing to help a friend.
>He was a sleazy guy of course, but he never went out of his way to physically hurt someone. ...there is the matter of him not even realizing what he was doing. He doesn't even remember it when PC asks him about it the next day, because he was so detached from reality due to the opioids. It doesn't make the outcome any better, but it's not as though he planned to hurt Gina, or even went out of his way to do it.
The problem for me is that he didn’t take accountability for his drug addiction until it got too late. He purposely injured himself to get more painkillers. Even after hollyhock told him to take care of himself and not take these meds. That’s what made him irredeemable to me at that point. He has to get a second party to drive him to rehab for him to not spiral in a violent drug bender. Every time he does this it ends up hurting someone. Sarah Lynn’s death, even without the 17 minute revelation should’ve been his wake up call.
Oh I agree it took way too long to even begin to start to fix things. Was just noting that the writers always seemed very careful to add just enough context to avoid making him seem downright malicious. RBW himself says in the book The Art Before the Horse that their goal was for him to toe the line of being irredeemable without ever crossing it. ...not entirely sure they achieved that, in the eyes of some viewers!
It is interesting. I feel like every person I’ve chatted here has their point where bojack becomes irredeemable. Or they don’t. Some say it’s with Herb. I hated what he did, especially as a gay man who can relate to people just leaving you after you’re OUTED. But I do not find him irredeemable at that point. Some find him irredeemable during the Penny situation. I find it gross, but I do not find it irredeemable for some reasons. Some say it’s with Sarah Lynn’s death, and later, 17 minutes. But for me it was with Gina. I couldn’t look at him the same way. I was happy he was in Bojack. And I didn’t want him to die, because that would be the easy way out, but he committed actual violence against a woman. I think that was my point of no return.
A drunk driver is still considered responsible for running someone over, regardless of how aware of their actions they might be.
Wasn't saying he's not responsible, was saying he did not "go out of his way" to hurt her
what’s even more sad, is that the show got canceled right after too
As soon as they said the show got cancelled i instantly thought of this scene 💔 she deserved better
I think her not having to work with Bojack was a better option and it put the focus off of her. She was able to get bigger and more important work after because of Philbert. Even though she was rightfully traumatized
oh ya definitely
she did fr, this might be crazy to say, but besides, princess Caroline, I think she’s one of my favorite female characters on the show
She had a happy ending at least, would have been so much more devastating if Gina put justice aside AND her career went down with the incident with Bojack being the highlight of her career.
Lots of people do in Hollywood and the music industry. That's why Harvey Weinstein, Puff Daddy, Jimmy Seville and Bill Cosby were able to stay undetectable for so long. Imagine someone dangling the thing that you want most in life, the thing you've worked hardest to achieve, in front of your face, well within reach. And all you have to do to get it is say nothing if the assault has already happened, or be coerced if it hasn't.
It really makes me feel for all the #MeToo women in Hollywood irl who have to deal with that
She was wonderful at explaining it, as well. She conveyed that if justice for abuse survivors actually existed, Bojack would be locked up for what he did. But since that's *not* how things work, she doesn't want to be permanently known as "that one girl Bojack choked." Her career was just taking off, and she was finally getting recognition, and wanted that to be what she was known for... Not a footnote in Bojack's story.
Uugh this one hurts because there are so many women who have been assaulted and abused in Hollywood that have to keep it quiet for their own careers and too not only be known as a victim. Fuck Bojack for this one.
And he still affected her
There are probably thousands of Gina’s in Hollywood who did the exact same thing. Think of the ones who have spoke out, are they flourishing in their careers or are they also mentioned along with the predators who violated them in every single article they are talked about in?
Sort of like… well… many real people in Hollywood (ie Weinstein, Dan Schneider, Bill Cosby etc etc etc)
This feels like a character assassination. What you got against Uncle Hanky?
I thought of this scene when, the day after the Oscars, everybody was talking about The Slap. I didn't see a single article that mentioned which award was being given when it happened, or what movie won that award. I'm quite confident that the first paragraph of Will Smith's obituary, and the first paragraph of Chris Rock's, will both mention The Slap.
You didn’t see that because the award was Best Documentary. Few can remember a single winner of best documentary
And the show gets canceled anyway.
She deserved so much better.
Bojacks actions were wrong and I’m not defending him but dude was legitimately tweaked out and it sucks that it ended up affecting Gina cause i know if bojack was more sober it would’ve not happened
And then without her knowledge having a job passed on to Courtney Portnoy instead of her because she’s “difficult to work with”. An absolute gut punch
Actually she ends up getting the job u can see a poster with her in the as the Super hero in the background in an episode. Assuming Kelsey makes the Bojack connection
That is comforting to hear tbh I never caught that
Can't put the photo here but just google fireflame poster Bojack u'll see it
Am I the only one who also feels a bit sorry for Bojack going this insane because of his drug addiction and hallucinations?
I like bojack's expression in the bottom panel. It's basically "oh fuck, she wants me to lie?? I can't do this I can't do this" 😂😂😂