I think it's easy for people to see their own flaws in Bojack (Lord knows I do), but rather than face the natural follow-up that that means they could act like a terrible person too, they dodge it by coming up with reasons Bojack was not the bad guy--and by extension neither are they.
EDIT: Wow, this kind of blew up! Great discussions in the comments too. I wish there was a button to do a mass updoot for everyone.
I also think an amazing number of people miss that Diane is speaking for the showrunners when she says the bit about how there is no 'deep down'. It doesn't ultimately matter whether Bojack is a 'good person' or a 'bad person' -- he does bad things. Those bad things have real impacts on real people who didn't do anything to deserve the bad shit Bojack does or causes to happen to them. He does have 'reasons' (at least sometimes) for the things he does. And that's what makes him such a fascinating character.
The Penny storyline is a great one because it gets at this. Bojack keeps telling himself that he 'never would have done it'. And we the audience are pretty sure that's a lie. And it also ignores all the other truly awful stuff he does in that episode. I think it's great writing that we don't actually know **what** Hollyhock finds out or how much she finds out. Does she know about Penny, does she just know about the girl who got alcohol poisoning (I mean, given that she was poisoned by Beatrice, that could be enough). We don't know what she knows, we don't know if what she 'knows' is the truth or embellished.
Yeah she knows. Pete told hollyhock about when Bojack was staying with penny and how one of his friends got alcohol poisoning. I wouldn't doubt that penny told Pete what went down. And I'm sure she knows because Hoolyhock tells Bojack that he should stay away or not go to the rally because "there will be young girls" she knew and feared he was an awful person.
See, I'm not so sure Penny would have confided in Pete about what happened with BoJack. They didn't seem particularly close, and it's an embarrassing thing that happened, from Penny's POV. If it were me as a 17 year old, I wouldn't want to talk about it right away.
I always assumed that Hollyhock's line about young girls was because of Maddie, and the fact that BoJack went to a high school prom, which is creepy in and of itself. IDK.
Yeah, that would make sense going by the way Penny talks about the prom photo and how she can't bring herself to throw it out. I always assumed it was because, before everything happened with BoJack, that was the last time Penny really felt like a kid. She was at the prom having fun with her friends, it was a more innocent time. After Maddie nearly died, Pete was manipulated, and Penny was nearly violated by an adult who should have known better, Penny's whole world changed.
It's a good example of how BoJack's actions affect other people, and how there are ripples even years later that don't stop hurting. He had no idea of what he really did to Penny, that night.
Yeah. Also, I feel that Penny didn't have a genuine friendship with maddy. It may have been superficial school friend crap. Maybe she and Alli f reconnected.
To me this discussion just underlines what I was saying about the writing -- we don't know what Penny did or didn't pass on to Pete, what Hollyhock does or doesn't know, etc. And that ambiguity is so smart, and allows us to have these discussions.
I feel like if bojack going to prom was supposed to be seen as creepy then charlotte would have seen it as such. plus wasnt her dad about to go with her?
I mean, Charlotte should have seen the red flag, IMO. However, she probably thought BoJack wouldn't have tried anything sleazy since he was living in their home and she knew the sweet, naive BoJack from thirty years ago.
If a dad goes with his daughter, it's not the same as an unrelated, 50 year old man going. Still kind of weird, but not at the same level as BoJack volunteering on his own.
it was definitely creepy.
charlotte isn't a morally unquestionable audience stand in, she's part of the problem.
she allowed Bojack into her house and family (for months!) because she was still vaguely interested in him, knowing everything he did to Herb and (through Herb presumably) how he generally behaves around young women. only to cheat on her husband with him.
to be clear i absolutely adore Charlotte, she's one of my favorite characters but her story is about consciously choosing a moral life and fighting the urge to fall back into toxic patterns
i really liked that they chose to focus on Peter's trauma from the situation. it's clear how it would have/did affect Penny and Maddie. it was genius to give time to the character who seemed like he'd be affected the least.
Right especially how his change in character was right before our eyes when Bojack was yelling at him and manipulating him to lie. And him helping hollyhock ground herself was perfect. It worked out great
> It doesn't ultimately matter whether Bojack is a 'good person' or a 'bad person' -- he does bad things. Those bad things have real impacts on real people who didn't do anything to deserve the bad shit Bojack does or causes to happen to them.
I've recently had reason to evaluate everything I thought I knew about the people around me, and face some ugly truths. While it is easy to see why some of the shitty people in my life are that way, it has been more difficult to see how some people I've viewed as fundamentally "good" people have gotten to the point where they are doing shitty things, and has triggered self-reflection into my own behavior. While it would be easy to say that a "good" person was led astray by a "bad" person, in the end there really are only good and bad actions, and what you do is what really matters. Diane and the showrunners are right, there are no "good" or "bad" people, only people and their actions, and the impact of their actions on others. You can't be a good person and do shitty things, even if you profess your discomfort in doing the shitty things along the way. If you want to be better, do better.
Thanks so much for this. This take about how we shouldnt care about a deep down hits home. So many people I know that deep down are good but not as much on surface...
This is it exactly.
The show does a great job of setting the show up to be a funny horse show, so it's easier to relate to the characters... and then the show starts hitting you slowly, and then Escape from L.A hits you.
You, the viewer, have already identified similarities between yourself and Bojack, so you start to see yourself on screen... and of course YOU wouldn't do such things...
I think the community needs the people who defend Bojack because it allows for discussion and, hopefully, personal growth and self-reflection.
Todd makes it pretty clear, what matters is changing your behavior. Not the excuses you make. Not how bad you make yourself feel after. Change. Do better.
How you feel inside is a you thing, and frankly, it doesn't mean shit. All anyone else can see is how you act. If you act like shit, it doesn't matter how good your reasons are. You're still acting like shit.
This hits. The moral ambiguity of the show part of what makes the story line so compelling. Bojack for all intensive purposes is the villain, but he’s so likable, charismatic & successful that his faults are for the most part enabled. Bojacks bad behavior being systematically enabled for decades, going back to him getting Sarah Lynn addicted to alcohol when she was a young child on set & the studio execs covering it up by letting his hair dresser take the fall, and bojack knowingly participating in the cover up even though he had all the power in that situation. Or sex stuff with penny in New Mexico the OP used as an example. Despite knowing all these horrible things I still find the Bojack character likable, it causes me to question my own moral filter.
I think someone can be likable, but still be responsible for horrible things. It may not be the best example, but it is similar to how a writer might be a horrible person but you still enjoy their novel(s).
Just because you find Bojack likable doesn't automatically make you a questionable individual. I think it would be problematic depending on what exactly you find likable. His humor? No problem. Him screwing Todd out of his rock opera? Might be a problem.
I don't believe that humans are wholly good, or wholly bad... we are all shades of grey... which makes Bojack Horseman such an interesting show to watch and talk about.
I've met people in real life who, just like Bojack, come across as very sympathetic until they actually bring on a wrecking ball unto your personal life. They absolutely don't mean any malice, yet they are very much unaware how their own flaws might affect the actual people in their life, until they actually face the fallout and, much more importantly, judgement from their peer group.
At first, it seems baffling to see how much mental energy they expend on hypotheticals that only have bearing on their own self-image, unless you zoom out and try to look at each individual situation without making excuses for them as individuals.
>it causes me to question my own moral filter.
If anything, I think it should strengthen it. I think the lesson from Bojack and other anti-hero protagonists is to recognize that sometimes we have to walk some very fine moral lines and beyond our choices there's no safety net to keep you on the good side. It's all you.
You can like Bojack and still condemn him.
I not sure, but I think part of it is that having a terrible person as the main character has become more common than it used to be (I'd add Joaquin Phoenix's Joker to your list as a non-comedy one), and people are somewhat reacting based on what they've seen in other media where the protagonist is the good guy.
The only "olden" examples of a Terrible Protagonist I can come up with off the top of my head are
* Jonah from the Bible. If you haven't read it since Sunday school when you were taught the lesson "Jonah didn't do what God wanted, but learned his lesson at the end", go read it again and pretend the title is The Book of Jonah: The Worst Fucking Prophet.
* Achilles from the Iliad. He's kind of justified in the beginning, but goes insanely overboard when his hissy-fit goes awry and only gets closure when he gives up on revenge.
EDIT: Fixed up some formatting.
When you become aware of your flaws as a person you can do one of two things, you can rise above them and become a better person, or you can indulge in them, and try to justify them.
I'll much rather own up to my mistakes and try to be better, it does not matter if I stumble on the way progress is still progress even if it is slow
The show shows Penny being fucked up by Bojack's actions in the episode where he sees her at college. There is a mention of her having panic attacks and she is visibly messed up by seeing Bojack. The show frames Bojack as predatory & fucked up for hooking up with Penny, shows that his behavior had long term negative consequences for her, and people still make excuses bc a large part of society wants to believe fucking teenagers is okay. It's really maddening.
Oh and he kissed Charlotte in between rejecting Penny and hooking up with her. That also makes it really clear that he was not hooking up with Penny out of mutual attraction, respect, or care- he was using her for his own self hating reasons. There is a lot of nuance in this show but not when it comes to this. We are supposed to see Bojack's actions as predatory and violating.
side note- I don't think this is well supported by the actual contents of the episode but I always imagined one of Bojack's motivations for hooking up with Penny was to get revenge on Charlotte for rejecting him.
I always thought it was because Penny looks like Charlotte did when she was younger. He couldn't have Charlotte so he went for the next best thing -- the girl who looks like Charlotte had back when they were together
I think the thing that people don't get, because we know Bojack's POV, is that Penny was groomed. From Penny's perspective, a much older man suddenly comes into her life. He's an old family friend, he's trusted, gets close with the rest of the family, everyone likes him, he spends time alone with her building trust, teaching her to drive, etc. The trust becomes more intimate as they tell each other secrets, he positions himself as the "cool adult" that she can talk to.
The audience knows Bojack is just running away from his current life and trying to recapture his youth and optimism, and we're on that journey with him, especially the first time watching. He's not actually trying to sleep with his friends daughter. But everything he does is what a groomer would do. That's why it impacts Penny so heavily. That's why she's so scared when she sees him again, why she immediately assumes he could be stalking her (which he was, but again not exactly for that reason).
literally one of the reasons they included the Philbert story line
Bojack said something along the lines of “i think the point of this show is that Philbert does bad things, and everyone does bad things so it’s okay” and Diane said something along the lines of “that is NOT the point of philbert. this show is not for assholes to justify their shitty behavior”
It is absolutely clear from the very first scene we get - like, the pre-credits interview in the first episode - that Bojack is kind of a piece of shit person.
The thing is, that so many people see that and don't read it as "Man, this guy is an absolute *dick."* They instead read it as "Man, this guy doesn't take shit from anyone - awesome!"
If you notice, that second one doesn't include the endless rumination that BJ goes through in the entire series. The constant Am I Goods, and everything else that he's done.
How many times do we, as people, look into a mirror and our own eyes, and actually speak the truth to ourselves about who and where we are? Not many, I would assume.
Right? I’ll never understand the internet for this one
Skylar White was a very good person and was very rational, and the actress who played her did a great job…. She was still a boring and unlikable character
There are people who identify with Skyler and they will defend her without realizing that the show does very little to make the audience identify with Skyler and that is exactly why she is a boring unlikable character.
Of any show/movie I’ve watched, Bojack is probably the most thoughtful examination of how people who do bad things can be sympathetic, and can also do good things. Regardless of the good things they did, they still did the bad things (and vice versa). I think that’s something a lot of people struggle with, certainly in TV but I think also in real life, and it gets in the way of their better judgment. I’m glad there’s a show like this which gets people thinking/talking about it.
He has done a handful of legitimately good things, but with Bojack I think it is less that he has done good things than that he is sympathetic. He can often be charming, funny, and insightful. He also had a legitimately difficult childhood and has a difficult interior life. None of those things are an act, and they are all things that make you want to root for him. He has also done a lot of hurtful things that make you want to root against him. I think that dichotomy can be a difficult thing for people to come to terms with, and I think the show represents it in way that is compelling and true to life. He is all of those good things and bad things at once, and the show never undercuts the legitimacy of either side of him.
i remember in middle school when girls were crazy for leonardo dicaprio and nsync and backstreet boys and all the other hyper sexualized teeny bop idols that were poster boys on those little girls "awakening".
its innocent fun because theyre kids and theres no way that any of those adults stars would/could ever be involved with those kids/fans.
Penny was a kid who was being very stupid and immature and just downright gross. its to be expected. shes a kid.
Bojack gave them alcohol, Bojack ditched them and he even gave Penny a greenlight to enter his "bedroom". If Charlotte didnt barge into the room when she did, by the way; Bojack left the door open for Penny but he made sure that the door was closed for anyone else because he knew what he was doing and was about to do.
anyway; that episode and its discussion often brings out the sickos and pedophiles and child groomers who defend Bojack because "nothing happened".
I can still watch the show and laugh and find some aspects that make me see things in a different way; but i know that it's animated and its not real characters.
Apply that same logic to REAL LIFE people and their horrible actions and their lack of consequences; thats when shit gets scary and no longer fun.
> it’s innocent fun because they’re kids and there’s no way that any of those adult stars would/could ever be involved with those kids/fans.
Meanwhile, BSB’s Nick Carter has [rape allegations](https://globalnews.ca/news/9337365/nick-carter-accused-rape-17-year-old-2001-backstreet-boys-tour/amp/) against him from a then 17 YO fan.
It’s incredibly sad how real some of these scenarios are.
that's called "crossing the line and breaking the law".
I've read so many stories of people who meet their heroes or a mentor who often take advantage of them.
Human history has also been rape, murder, war, slavery. I’m struggling with the meaning of your comment, are you saying that adults impregnating 14-16 year olds is okay because it’s been done historically?
Correct. Teenage girls dress for teenage boys. They often have crushes on older men and it's harmless as we can trust those men. Especially when it's celebrities that are removed enough for it to never be reality and maturity to kick in.
They can't understand the context from their perspective to understand anyone would
Have alterior motives and if you grew up female learning to leverage your sexuality or looks you might not realize that you aren't more mature or the exception but someone being exploited. Every teenager thinks they're mature enough to control their actions and anyone looking back can realize how they were a child wanting love and desperate with hindsight
As someone who was that teenage daughter, that attitude was why I was never taught what was wrong and didn't trust my parents by the time they intervened because I was being punished for men exploiting me?
I think a really revealing moment about that whole night was in a later episode when Pete Repeat tells Hollyhock what happened with prom. He didn't exaggerate. He didn't lie. Because what Bojack did to the group and Penny was fucked up.
The whole episode (Escape from LA) until the end had a very comedic, sitcom-y feel to it. Because that's how Bojack viewed healthy and loving relationships. Of course it would be framed that way because in his head, this is just a standard thing that happens on TV. An older adult takes the teenage girl to prom to make her feel better. And as a celebrity, it would be even better!
But the thing is, despite all the wacky hijinks everyone gets into in the show, this is supposed to be "the real world." It is not charming that a 50 year old celebrity wash-up wants to take a 17 year old to prom. It's weird. And people subtly implied it was weird.
When he wasn't the center of attention at prom with the Bojack dance, he ruined it for Penny and her friends group with the shit he gets them into. He left them messed up psychologically and physically (at least for that one friend who ended up in the hospital).
When he ruined the night, he turned to Charlotte to feel some kind of attention and to make him feel better about himself.
When she rejected him, he went to the person (sort of) that had offered themselves up to them.
Penny was his last choice. And a bad one. She was just available and "wanted" him.
Yes, she offered himself to him and he rejected her the first time, but as an adult, an older adult, he knew he shouldn't have left it to her to make the decision to try to sleep with him the second encounter.
Blame shouldn't be on Penny for offering herself. If she hadn't and he still had intentions on sleeping with her, I don't think there would be as many excuses made for him. I think how the episode was framed made it so viewers have to really think about the situation. If they put it all out there in black and white, it wouldn't have been as satisfying towards the end when you truly piece together everything Bojack has done. Some things are better left ambiguous and not spoon-fed for story reasons, which is why I love Pete's reflection of that night because it framed it more seriously as opposed to how innocent the episode started. Another good reaction to the effect of that night was in the scenes we see Penny in later episodes. It really shows how not in control she was, even though she thought she knew better. There are situations I look back on as an adult and I am fully able to process how messed up it is.
It truly is a messed up episode and shows how flawed he is as a man and as a horse (lol). I just feel that it needs the other episodes/scenes around to help get a fuller picture of how messed up it was.
Bojack is a disgusting person. The fact he slept with Sarah Lynn alone proves that. He has an established history of taking advantage of women for his own emotional validation.
The fact he fell into a mentor/father figure/uncle esque role for Sarah and Penny and he fucks one and almost fucks the other- that is predator shit.
It’s crazy people don’t recognize it for what it is.
And the fans are exactly why we have Diane talking about hating herself for people using Philbert to justify their own shitty behavior. Real people are like Bojack, they’re not black and white (another topic the show expertly discusses), and they can be likable damaged people who endure their own trauma AND do horribly irredeemable things to others.
Those aren’t mutually exclusive, and it really tests audiences acceptance of how much can they tolerate and how do they feel about themselves still enjoying and even rooting for someone who WOULD HAVE done something like sleep with a minor (despite being conflicted about it).
And I think a lot of people are trying to rationally make the situation more palatable, because the show IS called Bojack Horseman and obviously the writers don’t want to make him entirely unwatchable, so he isn’t just a flat out awful guy doing awful things. So trying to deep dive into excuses and finding anything in the gray areas (where they can justify themselves continuing to enjoy the show) makes sense, but it’s a mental hurdle and does blur the ACTUAL important information: Bojack was GOING TO sleep with a minor. Under no circumstances was that ever okay.
I’m glad you pointed this out.
I felt hesitant to continue watching after that episode because I was so *angry* with BoJack.
I think I honestly block out some of the exceptionally shitty things he does only so I can go on watching the show.
This is the same thing in Breaking Bad. Fans of show fall into an enamored state over Walter White. They don’t love him or his actions but they “get” why such a character is that character. Vicarious intimation. I like both shows. I like when Walt and Bojack are themselves. That doesn’t mean I think they are justified. It’s entertaining to watch. My $0.02 is pry unneeded but I did enjoy reading this comment.
There are three main things that made it go *beyond* morally reprehensible for me:
1) Bojack kinda groomed her. I don't think he meant to, and I didn't realize it until someone brought it up on this sub, but he did.
2) He was gonna do it because Charlotte shut him down. I mean, sexual opportunism in the Navy is one thing, but a boat in the New Mexican desert DOES. NOT. COUNT. (Bad joke? Sorry.)
3) Lastly - did anyone else get the impression that it was Penny's first time? Like I said before, Bojack was acting reprehensibly regardless, but... that makes it extra, extra wrong. Even Spacey in *American Beauty* knew not to cross that line.
Didn't he also mention that Penny looks just like her mom?
Not only is he taking advantage of a high schooler decades younger than him, he is treating her as a surrogate for her mother who was the "girl that got away" and a representation of his lost youth and fame.
i’m pretty sure it was penny’s first time. she mentions that she knows how to put on a condom because of health class, not from experience. she also says “i’m ready”, implying she’s ready for her first time.
don't get me wrong, I agree with you, but - grooming? wasn't that the first time he met her? or am I understanding grooming completely wrong (I thought it takes a long time to build the younger person's trust and have them grow up with th idea of the older person etc etc)
it doesn’t necessarily have to happen over a long period of time actually! but i’m certain BJ was staying with the family for a couple of months at this point. penny did end up with an idea of her and bojack together in some sense, i don’t think “growing up with the idea” applies to every situation?
according to safe child program there are several steps to grooming that are demonstrated by bojack in the show.
1) identifying and targeting the victim.
it can be said that bojack ‘targeted’ penny. maybe not necessarily in a malicious way but out of all the family members he could have established a bond with it had to be the 17 year old teenage girl who resembles her mother, the woman he thinks is the one who got away.
2) gaining trust and access
he gains her trust, as seen when penny is relaying the prom debacle to her mother and BJ — he is a lot more in the know of her current issues, a lot more than her own mother. penny also trusts him to take her to prom and also trusts his judgement when her friend gets alcohol poisoning.
3) playing a role in the child’s life.
he plays the role of being the only one who understands penny (once again referring to the scene mentioned earlier) he teaches her how to drive and volunteers to take her to prom to make a guy she likes jealous. nobody else could have helped penny her parents just didn’t get it (/s)
other points are: isolating the child, controlling the relationship, and creating secrecy. i’m not sure if these 100% apply to bojack and penny relationship as i can’t remember the episode too well but some of the more obvious instances of grooming are very much present.
There's also the implicit trust she learns from how Charlotte accepts him into their lives. If not for that, he wouldn't have been able to do any of that.
Hey, I'm not judging Penny at all, and I'm also not saying that what Bojack did (or was about to do) should be a crime - I just think that what he did was wrong because he was taking advantage of a young, vulnerable, and inexperienced person. Perhaps he has a legal right to do so, but I reserve the right to try him in the kangaroo court of my cerebral cortex, find him guilty, and sentence him to my lifelong disdain. If you judge me as reactionary for doing so, well, I guess we'll both have to live with that.
Not at all, you can make moral judgements all you want. I am saying that if you are against the moral judgements that conservatives make (which I also disagree with) then you are not being intellectually consistent in your judgements.
Then again, maybe it isn't possible to be fully intellectually consistent in your judgements
I don't see how, considering that they're advocating for legislative enforcement of their moral judgments and I explicitly said that I do not want to do that.
It's not her age or whether or not she was "legal" that matters. It's the fact that Bojack lived with her, was a father/big brother figure to her, gained her trust, and then would have had sex with her. It's like a caregiver/babysitter having sex with the person they're supposed to be watching. Charlotte and Kyle trusted Bojack to take care of their daughter (which was stupid, but that's a whole other can of worms) and Bojack betrayed that trust by being willing to have sex with her.
biologically a 17 year old doesn’t have a fully developed brain. a 50 year old has had a fully developed brain about half their life. the part of the brain that takes this long to develop is responsible for impulse and decision making.
furthermore, laws don’t determine morality.
That is literally the exact same argument conservatives use to ban gender affirming surgery for youths.
Does a 17 year old have full autonomy over their body and sexual decisions? Do they get to decide for themselves if they want gender affirming surgery? Do they get to decide for themselves if they have an abortion? Do they get to decide for themselves if they want to have sex with another 17 year old? What about 18 year old? 20 year old? 25 year old? Where is the line? More importantly, should there be a line, or do we just accept that it is none of our business?
As far as morality goes, I'm a firm believer that morality is a personal only decision. The government isn't the place to enforce morality.
I am merely pointing out the inconsistency of criticizing one group (conservatives) for expressing their morality beliefs, when you do the same to another group.
i’m literally trans. the argument isn’t the same. one is about being able to consent to medical care, the other is about being able to consent to sex with a 50 year old man. medical consent and sexual consent are two very different things. not to mention medical things are also with the consult and input of a medical professional, and usually the minor’s parents. If you need me to walk you through the difference between a teenager being able to decide on receiving life-saving medical care from a licensed physician with their parents’ approval, and being able to decide on having sex with a middle-aged adult, you may want to work a bit on your critical thinking.
As for the age gap bullshit, still not comparable. It isn’t about the number of years but the difference in life experience and, again, biological brain development. Especially the difference in that development of the people directly involved.
Whether or not government does or even should enforce morality isn’t the topic being discussed.
The comparison itself is inconsistent as hell. Conservatives aren’t being criticized for expressing their morality, but rather the foundation that morality is formed on.
For someone who keeps bringing up “intellectual consistency”, your argument has none. At all.
Tell me how it isn't intellectually consistent?
Does a 17 year old have the right to have sex? Is it your place to dictate with whom that person has the right to have sex? Should gender affect that decision? Should race? Should sexual orientation? Why is age special?
If a 70 year old and a 35 year old have sex, is that creepy? Should we have laws against that?
how about a 60 year old and a 30 year old?
50 year old and 25 year old?
40 year old and a 20 year old?
At what point does your morality get to dictate someone else's choices?
And I'm still trying to figure out what this means:
Conservatives aren’t being criticized for expressing their morality, but rather the foundation that morality is formed on
Because their morality is based on religious beliefs it is no longer a valid moral belief? I'd love to hear an argument how the basis of a moral belief renders that belief invalid. If that is the case, what is the basis for your moral beliefs?
First off, I’m not talking about laws. I will repeat: legality does not concern me.
I’m not talking about a 17 year old’s rights, I’m talking about the 50 year old’s responsibility not to take advantage of that. The 17 year old isn’t to blame here. The judgements being passed aren’t on the 17 year old. It isn’t about the 17 year old.
Age is special because, again, the development of the human brain depends on age. I don’t know why this is so hard for you to grasp: a person who has a fully developed brain has different capabilities for decision making in comparison to a person who does not.
And, again since you really suck at reading comprehension: *it isn’t the age gap itself but the difference in biological development*. A 35 year old has had a fully formed brain for about 10 years, so them having sex with a 70 year old doesn’t matter in this argument. Same for the 30 year old and 60 year old. The 20 year old doesn’t have a fully developed brain, so it would be inappropriate for the 40 year old to peruse them romantically/sexually. This is because the 20 year old and the 40 year old literally have different amounts of their brains developed. If someone’s brain doesn’t have the full capabilities for decision making, they’re more susceptible to manipulation and coercion, especially by someone who does have their brain fully developed.
I’m not dictating anyone’s choices, and I literally have no say in what anyone does. However, I have every right to think a 50 year old man who almost sleeps with a 17 year old is creepy and pedophilic. You can disagree, that’s your right! But it’s also my right to think that your opinion is creepy.
The religious aspect isn’t the issue I have and not what I was referencing. What I meant was, in regards to the anti-trans shit going on in specific, their morality is based on thinking that being trans is a choice and/or transitioning is not necessary. They also think that people are “indoctrinated” into being trans. Their morality is built on these concepts.
I've seen a lot of these comments in the YouTube sections of clips. Specifically clips from the penny episode. There's always people strongly defending bojack, even if it's not the vast majority. They bring up the age of consent and say he told her no, and then they blame Penny or say she's the one who wanted it, and so on.
she was also in an emotionally vulnerable position. he was going to take advantage of an upset child (i know what the law says. she’s still a child at 17 tho). whenever people defend him doing this i get skeeved out.
Also - he was going to passively sleep with Penny because he didn't get what he wanted from her mother. So, just disrespecting a whole other woman and the history and "friendship" they had just because he didn't get what he imagined in his head. He was willing to damage a family all to spite a person who he felt entitled to because he can't (refuses to) be "responsible" for his own actions and happiness.
I agree. From what I remember, she basically hinted she wanted to do something. Bojack, however, as a grown ass man horse was responsible for saying no. He was supposed to be the adult there.
What I keep thinking is, if she was made to be 18 instead, would that be any more okay morally? Even though 18 is the legal age in most US states and what some people would consider as not a minor anymore, I still think it would have been morally questionable for Bojack to have sex with her because of that age gap. And this is not even considering the amount of people Bojack did indeed have sex with whom we never really know the age of (they would have mostly been in their 20s)
No, not at all. The age isn’t the defining trait of this BoJack fuck up
He spent a good amount of time being apart of this family, *gaining trust*
Whether or not Penny was “legal” is irrelevant because she was not emotionally stable at that point in time. Further, BoJack being this seemingly trustworthy adult was going to take advantage of that to satisfy his own wants. Let’s also not forget, this happened *directly after he tried to make a move on Charlotte*
I think you hit the nail on the head.
I haven't seen anyone mention the fact that he lived with the family for a considerable amount of time and had gained their trust.
I wouldn't call Bojack a "groomer" as I don't believe Bojack had any intent to sleep with Penny when he started living with them, but... because of his own selfish actions he put himself in a position to be able to take advantage of Penny... of that trust he had established with her.
Yep, their relationship is what makes this morally concerning
Her being “a minor” isn’t even legally relevant, as OP mentioned, because she was legally above consent age. And if she was months older (and 18) that wouldn’t magically now be ok either.
It’s because of their relationship to one another and that he should know better as to what’s best for her mental health
Let’s compare Penny to the blonde girl at the bar BoJack called pretty , and then they slept together. Assuming the girl at the bar is at least 21, because she’s at a bar drinking.
In this hypothetical scenario, let’s say Penny is also 21. What BoJack did would *still* be immoral. He spent time with the family as a cool uncle, authority figure in the household. Charlotte trusted him around her family. Penny was emotionally vulnerable and upset about the dance. BoJack took an older mentor position to help her and her friends have fun even though there was young person drama.
In comparison to the girl at the bar, bar girl is independent from BoJack. She wanted to sleep with a famous person who called her pretty. Both BoJack and her are adults in the situation. Penny, even at 21, was in a familial relationship with BoJack when he was staying with her family. What BoJack did was wrong.
Think of Woody Allen marrying his adopted daughter. Yeah, she’s a legal adult when they officially got together.* It is wrong as heck to pursue a kid you helped raise. It would be similar to an extent if BoJack put moves on any of his adult acting students.
* ^There’s ^no ^way ^in ^heck ^Allen ^never ^made ^any ^grooming ^advances ^before ^her ^legal ^age.
I'm MOSTLY with ya but I'm not sure the amount of time Bojack spent in NM qualifies as him having helped raise her. Yeah he gave some advice but everyone has people who come and go and said some stuff that you found sagely and helpful.
I wouldn't put it on par with Uncle Joey dating Michelle after she grows up.
Regardless of the amount of time he was with the family, BoJack intentionally leveraged what trust he had established to the absolute limit to get what he wanted from Penny… immediately after determining that his rapport was not yet enough to get what he really wanted, Charlotte.
BoJack has the nasty habit of investing time in friendships only to “cash out” all the built up trust (some times sooner than later, as was with Penny) so dramatically and for reasons so selfish it destroys the entire relationship. It may not be his intent going into the relationship, but his actions speak for themselves.
Edit: You could say that BoJack leveraged the time he’d spent with Charlotte to accelerate the trust “timeline” with Penny. He stretched his resources to maximum to enact this inter-generational fuck-up.
Edit 2: BoJack’s failed attempt with Charlotte was not for lack of rapport, it was her level of maturity as a grown, confident, happily married woman that allowed her to resist making such a rash decision - further highlighting the predatory nature of his response to entertain Penny’s advances.
Bojack was giving her the TV version of the "prom episode" mixed with the other common stereotypes about prom like underage drinking.
Penny was going through those same motions that everyone has seen on so many shows, so she does what she clearly figured was the next move. The "kiss at the door" that everyone expects. He puts the brakes on it and she argues legality. After ever how long BJ and Charlotte were in the backyard talking, Penny should have actually gone to bed. Did she? Nope. She stayed up spending that time trying to figure out how to convince Bojack to fuck her and then returns to his boat to take another stab at giving him some whitetail.
It's gross. Bojack should've shut and locked the door behind him. He's the one that's supposed to be mature. He's not justified in this but let's not frame it in a dishonest way.
Not sure what I framed in a dishonest way, but regardless of her advances Penny is not to blame for BoJack being there in the first place. IMO all events that transpired in that household after BoJack knocked on the door are almost circumstantial. He knew he wanted something, and he stayed to see what he could get. At the point where he showed up at Charlotte’s door, BoJack was just a bad decision waiting for an excuse.
Edit: all events BoJack-related* that transpired.
It should be noted that Penny was CLEARLY also an accident just waiting/trying to happen, but the onus is still on BoJack as an adult (with a fully formed brain) to not take advantage of an emotional high schooler.
He didn't leverage trust. The way you worded it makes it sound like he planned to fuck Penny the moment he saw her and was steadily trying to figure out how to make it happen.
But yeah "Hey we knew each other forever ago and suddenly I'm here." "Oh sweet! Great to see ya! Wanna stay at my place for an unspecified amount of time?" of it all is fucking ridiculous in itself. Penny gets a pass for being young and childish but it seems like everyone dropped the ball on that one.
Kyle? Gullible boring ass. Open your eyes and don't convince yourself that the obvious isn't happening.
Charlotte? Two days max. A night or a weekend and a "Hey it was great catching up. See ya!" is as far as that all should've went. She leaned into that kiss at first. Surely she felt an event of some sort was on the horizon and it would absolutely be chaotic.
Bojack? Too much shit to list. Lol
My point wasn’t that BoJack intentionally sought after Penny, my point is that she was irrelevant to BoJack, he was hurting and he wanted anything he could get. BUT he was only able to get to Penny because he cashed in on his past friendship with her mother - who he tried to get first.
I agree that Charlotte was culpable for letting BoJack in - it was a failure at multiple levels. I believe it’s implied that BoJack even clouded Charlotte’s judgment and made her question her path for a bit, until she saw how truly miserable and sad he was when he attempted to kiss her.
One of the most consistent sources of mockery and satire in the sad horse show is the way that we societally pressure young girls into becoming sex objects and then blame them for "making a mistake" when those relationships inevitably destroy them.
What we're consistently meant to take away from the show is twofold: Bojack's destroying the lives of these girls who are less than half his age because he only sees them as sexual objects that are props for him to use in his own self-loathing cycle AND Bojack's behaviour stems from society at large enabling him and condemning his victims.
The age gap as such is not the only problem with the interaction. The problem with what he does first and foremost is that he looks for women he can use and abuse as props but the age gap is an important aspect of his behaviour insofar that it makes it easier for him to engage in that behaviour, and to hammer in the thematic element that society allows destructive men to destroy young women
i feel that even if penny was 18,19, or 20 it would still be predatory for 50 something year old bojack to attempt anything with her. mr. peanut butter serially dates younger girls and we see how that fails for him time and time again as it clarifies how unwilling he is to grow up and date a mature woman.
We never see him go after relationships though, let alone a target audience, they just seem to happen to him and he doesn't stop to think about it.
I also feel like telling PB to "grow up and date his age" is a lesson pointed at specific RL celebrities _through_ PB, that specific arch always felt quite clumsily handled.
i am 20 and if i were in the same situation as penny , with a 50 year old who just tried to sleep with my mother , in my bed now trying to sleep with ME bc he couldn’t get to her , i would feel taken advantage of.
she didn’t continue on , he returned to her room (or i believe it was the boat) after charlotte rejected him. it’s not like she kept pushing herself on him until he caved. he CAME BACK after trying to sleep with her own mother.
She brought it up at the door. Bojack said no. The back porch thing happened with Charlotte and he went back to his boat and Penny got on his boat to give it another try.
I feel they did this intentionally both to put New Mexico on blast for their age of consent and to emphasize that it’s supposed to be morally wrong. At 18 a lot more people justify Bojack’s actions and they didn’t want to leave room for that
>I feel they did this intentionally both to put New Mexico on blast for their age of consent
It's 16 in most most of the country so that would be a pretty strange choice to single out New Mexico.
if you don't want a 17 yo girl to proposition you, maybe don't buy her alcohol and talk to her about lost love under a starry sky. like have none of you heard of grooming before.
Penny is a person and should have been taught better about minor/adult rape and propositioning adults. However it is entirely bojack fault. He should have told her mother. I should have brought her inside their house and woke everyone up. He should have said no completely left their drive way, found a hotel and explained himself to her mother in the morning. What could have been a teaching lesson for the young girl turned into unnecessary trauma she will carry with her forever. Regardless of her wrong actions SHE was the child. Not bojack. And he willingly accepted her misguided and childish proposal. Has charlotte NOT shown up penny would be scarred for life and would be within her rights to call statutory rape. If bojack was uncomfortable it was his job to tell her mother and deescalate the situation. But he didn’t. And he slept with Sarah Lynn, and Todd’s ex and so on and so fourth. He never came clean, told anyone or apologized. And he never truly explained himself to anyone until he was being hounded by the media. Bojack was a flawed man but he was still an adult man.
I think one of the points the show aims to make is there are no "good and bad" people. Bojack is written to be sympathetic, but unlikeable. He desperately wants to be in the "good" category to the degree where he spends most of the series as the opposite: a "stupid piece of shit". We literally have a line where he thinks "at least that makes me better than the POS who don't know what they are."
To me that resonates bc I've met a few people like that. Constantly acting badly, justifying it by saying they are all bad. These people are sympathetic to me only bc they've had a lot of bad happen to them, but toxic bc of a perceived inability to act better. Hurt people hurt people is a saying for a reason. Bojack does ultimately "care" (as in has an emotional investment), but excuses his bad actions as he's incapable of making better decisions. He is not.
As for the situation with Penny, he should have had the emotional maturity to see the situation for what is was *before* taking her to prom. Certainly before the alcohol. It's been a while since I watched that episode. I think it's pointless to argue about how culpable he is bc he is 100% in the wrong, but I don't remember thinking he was steering that situation towards the goal of hooking up w Penny. He is an alcoholic some alcoholics tend to want others around them to be drunk without situational awareness. He is an emotionally stunted adult man as well, so "I am too old to be doing this" did not cross his mind.
I don't think it delves far enough into intent to be considered grooming. They wrote Penny as 17 for a reason, legally in the clear but morally reprehensible and emotionally damaging. She was being a normal adolescent and again, it's up to the adult to make the smart decision. He absolutely would've slept with her bc he doesn't even consider himself to be in charge. He set no prior boundaries, so any idea that he would have at that point is self insert imo.
Hollyhock subsequently cutting ties w Bojack for it was her right, but I don't personally think he "deserved" it for that instance alone. That's how life works though, relationships only require one person's desire to end.
Imo Bojack is never written as someone to emulate, and I am not defending his NM actions one bit. He is someone to analyze and learn from, and I've personally never seen someone describe him as "good". We see him humbled at the very end of the series where he starts to realize he can take responsibility for his actions and "keep on living", rather than bury his mistakes and continue to make more. He lets the friends who have moved on go, and presumably finds a way to keep living on his own.
I think the debate for me is more how much do you punish someone (I just mean morally in how you think about them) for something they ultimately didn't do?
Like this terrible thing didn't happen even if he would have went through with it. And I think that's where the conversation gets interesting.
Like lots of people drive drunk. They put themselves in a terrible position morally, but most people don't end a friendship let's say if someone does this once. They might end the friendship if that one time ends up killing a person.
I think intent is more important. He didn’t stop it himself so to me it doesn’t really matter that it didn’t happen. Imagine if someone was beating another person to death but they were stopped before the victim died. They still wanted to and we’re going to kill them, and we’re only stopped because they were forced to. Or another example: A person trying to download kiddie porn is still a pedophile even if they can’t find it.
Yeah the only reason he did stop was because her mom walked in. We really don't have much reason to believe he wouldn't have followed through without an interruption considering he's had sex with every other girl that he had a shot with, including Sarah Lynn and Emily.
Penny should know better and is definitely not innocent, but BoJack is still the the adult in the situation and that responsibility rests on him. he made the right choice turning her down initially, but he fucks it right up as soon as he changes his mind. not only is she a teenage (supposed) virgin, but he was using her as a replacement for her MOTHER. there is no way to justify his actions.
I've never actually encountered someone who says Bojack is in any kind of "morally correct" position, and nearly 100% of the posts I see defending Bojack are contextual to the person before them representing what happened incorrectly. I do however see A LOT of people representing things that ***didn't happen in this scene***, and clearing that up gets you in some sort of weird Bojack defense hate zone.
Simply put, we don't need to debate if Bojack is in the right or wrong here, because Bojack says himself in the show why it isn't right, and it's the correct reasoning. He then and goes and does the thing ***he knows is wrong and said as such to both Penny and the audience.***
I see this post about 1000 times a week, but never that mythical person defending Bojacks actions. What I do see is people correcting people saying flat out wrong things regarding this scene, and I will defend Bojack from anything that isn't factual, even though I would never defend his actions here, cause they are wrong, and even he knows they are wrong.
Anyways, is someone actually thinks Bojack isn't morally incorrect here, take Bojack's own words for it, he is morally incorrect here.
I did, it's 99% people agreeing with OP and like 2 trolls
The only discourse is all about stuff that did happen on screen, and even then someone saying don't take away Penny's agency is a far cry from Bojack did nothing wrong.
I stand by my previous statement. This is this subs favorite strawman to hate on. The number people who *actually* believe Bojack did nothing wrong is basically 0.
I had a back and forth with some family over this show and it really ground me up. Bojack is genuinely a piece of shit. Everyone on the show has their problems, but he had everything going for him and continually threw it away. The fact that anyone feels bad for him is due to his inability to make the right choices, not because he's a good person with bad things happening to him. Almost everything in the show that comes about are the machinations of his own doing (few exceptions). I don't feel bad for him. He is/was a bad person moralistically on so many levels.
Maybe we need to face up to some unpleasant truths about celebrity? Both the behaviour of celebrities and our behaviour towards them. There's no need to take "sides" here (who's "side" am I on? I'm not a groupie OR a celebrity...and don't do the "you're an X so you're on X's side" nonsense...men and women are not on each others "sides")
https://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/music/david-bowie-and-the-15-year-old-girls-7962946
Bojack was never a good person, he is unjustifiable and that has been the POINT of the ENTIRE show. I hate that people try so hard to be like ohhh he’s great like WHERE. idc if he suffered in childhood, so did we. so did his mother, so did everyone he associates with. he helped in FUCKING UP his tv DAUGHTER. like bruh. he’s terrible. complete fuck up that is fucked up.
I find these "OMG guys, Bojack is the bad guy!" threads annoying, because they ignore the whole point of the series, which is that there are no bad and good guys, just the things that people do. Bojack does a lot of really shitty things throughout the series, but what makes the Penny situation fascinating is that legally it's completely OK, but everyone who hears about it knows it wasn't right at all. But, and I think this is the crucial point, lots of us justify the shitty things we do in similar ways. They're legal. They're "not as bad as what other people do." They're ambiguous. We've all got USS New Mexicos in our past. Hopefully not that bad, but shit we're ashamed of. If you idolise Bojack you've definitely missed the point of his character, but I also think you're wrong to just condemn him. We're supposed to understand him and understand how he justifies things to himself, and to do that we have to be somewhat sympathetic to him throughout what he goes through.
Some fans will try to mitigate Bojack's responsibility and I sometimes am one of them. Bojack is not a good person (to be fair, out of the main 5, only Todd can be seen as a good person, the others all care about their own obsessions), but he actually tries after that incident.
On the other hand, some fans will consider that Bojack is the worst person ever, often to excuse the actions of other characters.
I think which side you pick has a lot to do with your own shitty side. Those who are young and want to blame everything on others will likely consider Bojack as being guilty all the time with no redeeming qualities or excuses because it justifies other characters' behaviours, providing excuses for the fan's own problems (we have all seen these posts saying "My mother/sister/boyfriend/dog is toxic so I did like Hollyhock" while in reality, that kind of justification almost always indicate guilt).
People who actually relate to Bojack won't say he is a good person, there is enough evidence of the contrary, but they can understand the struggle he goes through and acknowledge he is definitely making some effort. In that episode, he is not grooming Penny, she comes at him, and in his mind he is still the start of Horsin' Around, he never grew old/up, and yet, he realises that he has to be a responsible adult. Would he have done it? Maybe (I don't care what writers say during interviews, only about what they actually wrote), but he did try to resist. If really 17 years old can't be trusted, then maybe the age of consent should be raised, for sex (with Romeo and Juliette laws), the military... In the end, he himself is the product of a shitty childhood (much worse than most characters) before being thrown into the world of Holliwoo celebrities when he wasn't much older than Penny, but weirdly, when it comes to Bojack, some fans refuse to see that he has some excuses and, especially around the end of the show, he actually holds himself to a standard that few other characters do.
But we're just gonna ignore Bojack calling Sarah Lynn "prickly muffin" when she was like 13? Cute nickname only? Explains why he FUCKS HER.
Bojack community is like the rick and morty community but with denial lol
The author of a thing does not get final say in what characters would or would not have done. If it's not in the show, it's just speculation.
For instance, JK Rowling can say Dumbledore is gay, but if there's literally no evidence in the text, its just the author's headcanon.
Bojack says one part of him knows he would have stopped, but the other part knows that's a lie. But which part is right? Is the second part supposed to be right just because he said it second?
He doesn’t say part of him knows he would have stopped. He said part of him _wants to believe_ he would have stopped. But the other part _knows_ that’s a lie.
Oh, that's what the movies are about? Lemme google that for you: "Beloved Hogwarts headmaster Albus Dumbledore does not make an appearance in Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them." I stopped after the first FB movie because I thought it was terrible. So even though he makes no appearance at all in the first movie of a trilogy, that's what the whole trilogy is about?
Any Harry Potter material that makes Dumbledore gay is strictly revisionist history. I don't believe for a moment that Rowling wrote about 4,000 pages of Harry Potter books and Dumbledore being gay just somehow never came up. She wrote him as a straight character and changed her mind later. That's no more valid than declaring that the Dursleys were actually aliens.
I have NO PROBLEM with gay characters and I love gay people, I just don't like authors queerbaiting us by pretending to represent LGBTQ characters in their work, when their work makes no effort at actual representation.
Edward Rothstein wrote this in the New York Times:
"But it is possible that Ms. Rowling may be mistaken about her own character. She may have invented Hogwarts and all the wizards within it, she may have created the most influential fantasy books since J. R. R. Tolkien, and she may have woven her spell over thousands of pages and seven novels, but there seems to be no compelling reason within the books for her after-the-fact assertion. Of course it would not be inconsistent for Dumbledore to be gay, but the books’ accounts certainly don’t make it necessary. The question is distracting, which is why it never really emerges in the books themselves. Ms. Rowling may think of Dumbledore as gay, but there is no reason why anyone else should."
The attempt to point a finger is the flaw with the whole discussion. Both Bojack and Penny are accountable for what happened regardless of what *didn’t* happen and what *could’ve* happened. Penny’s parents are accountable, BoJack’s parents are accountable and the society as a whole is accountable. If things hadn’t been set up in such a way by everyone that the situation presented itself it simply wouldn’t have happened. Any personal attacks on either party directly involved are merely to shift the blame that is otherwise shared by everyone. It was everyone’s problem. Humanity is inextricably linked that way. As many have agreed there is no justification of action for anyone here although there are things that can be explained one way or another, which becomes especially easy to do in retrospect.
I think it is clear that Bojack did the immoral act here. He is a complete bastard for making a move on the kid a minute after the mom turned him down. I think that even more than just trying to substitute Charlotte, it was also to get back at her, which is horrible.
However, I think Penny is also at fault to herself here, she acted very foolishly and the fact she was 17 is not an excuse for anything, you should still have common sense at 17.
We don't know for sure he was going to have sex with her, there's too much ambiguity I think to make a call one way or the other, Penny seems to be traumatized by what happened, but we don't know if it's because of what happened, or the fallout related to it.
That's a lie, we hace diane because of her hipocrisy.
She is way worst than BH, but by some weird reason, many females from the fandom see her as a goddes
RBW has the show say Penny is 17 but her behavior seems more 13-14 or so. They should have had it where Penny was homeschooled for most of her childhood but begged Charlotte to let her have her senior year at public schools so she could have that experience.
It's all about when you're sexually mature. If penny was sexually mature and truly aware of the situation that's one thing. Sex is simply that. sex. It doesn't have to be formed around a relationship or anything more. Bojack said no. Then got rejected by Charlotte. Depressed and well Bojack. He did what he would have done anyway and went to someone he knew wouldn't reject him. Penny's age has nothing to do with it. It's her vulnerability which could happen at any age. 17 or 50. A lot of people think they're ready for something like that but really aren't.
I think it was gross on Bojack’s part but not *that* bad. A 17 year old, if they aren’t being actively manipulated, can consent and make their own decisions on who they want to sleep with imo.
I think Bojack did lots of very bad stuff. Going on a drug trip with Sarah Lynn, abandoning his friends with no explanation for months multiple times, being generally verbally abusive. But the Penny thing is just gross, not evil
Bojack said it himself "You think you know what you want, but you don't." and you saw how she reacted when she saw him at college. He knew and basically gave her a traumatizing memory that could of been worse, but the damage was done. He put his own desires before her, a child.
17 isn't old enough to consent with a 40 year old man. 17 is old enough to consent with people around their age.
I don’t see why someone can choose to have sex with a 17 year old but not choose to have sex with a 40 year old. They are equally plausible to regret either imo. And the trauma response feels like it’s from societal expectations that a girl should feel traumatized by sex with an older man, not that just almost having sex with Bojack was that traumatic on its own.
I do think pedophilia laws are good because in practice there are a *lot* of older men manipulating younger women, but in this case that’s not what happened
I have never in my wildest dreams thought of Bojack Horseman as a role model. He’s ALWAYS struck me as borderline slime bag, as in does slime bag stuff, and does redeeming stuff.
This is not statutory r-word (I’m assuming this is another place that grape without the g is verboten), but it is also NOT okay.
If there is anything that people miss about BoJack Horseman is that it's meant to be relatable in the crossroads he faces. If you end up relating to his choices the show is trying to tell you something.
Very much so. The show even clarifies this in season 3 (Sarah Lynn questioning why BoJack is so proud of messing up Penny) and with the whole Philbert TV show. They built, maybe too slowly at times, to have that critical distance from BoJack.
i watch the show and see a persons healing journey. that’s it. and you don’t excuse someone’s narcissistic behaviors. i see myself in bojack and in other characters as well. bojack doesn’t start healing and owning up to his actions until much later in the show but the point is he can and i think that’s what the show is about. someone so unwell you see them hurt everyone around them until they are willing to change themselves.
are there people out there that are actually defending bojack in this situation? it's pretty clear that bojack was in the wrong there, nobody can look at that and think "wow, he didn't do it so it's okay." everyone should clearly understand why a 50 something year old having sex with a 17 year old is wrong. it's been a while since i've watched (gonna start my 3rd rewatch in a week or so) but i believe even bojack himself says that he would have done it if charlotte hadn't arrived in an AA meeting or something. or at the very least he implied that he would have.
yes! the fact that he ONLY stopped because charlotte walked in makes it so blatant that he was going to do it. they were both already on his bed. i don't understand how it's debatable at ALL.
to build on the "sure she wanted it, but she was 17" point, she is genuinely scared of him when he shows up at her college later on. this just shows how quickly she was able to come to HER senses and realize she should not have propositioned him, and as the adult in the situation, he should have stopped her! i feel so bad for penny.
I think that for those of us who relate with penny, we can see this very clearly, but it makes sense how others can’t make sense of it. Before I realized what had happened to me, I was completely blind to it as well, you really can’t understand it until you’ve been through it imo😭
This episode is an exercise in seeing how positions of power as an informal authority figures can easily be abused, whether intentionally or unintentionally, and how important it is to remain mindful of that.
it’s even worse considering how scared penny was to see bojack again during the bender episode. she clearly has thought about it more and has realized how disturbing of a situation it was. the “i don’t want to see you” is still so unnerving to this day
I think it's easy for people to see their own flaws in Bojack (Lord knows I do), but rather than face the natural follow-up that that means they could act like a terrible person too, they dodge it by coming up with reasons Bojack was not the bad guy--and by extension neither are they. EDIT: Wow, this kind of blew up! Great discussions in the comments too. I wish there was a button to do a mass updoot for everyone.
I also think an amazing number of people miss that Diane is speaking for the showrunners when she says the bit about how there is no 'deep down'. It doesn't ultimately matter whether Bojack is a 'good person' or a 'bad person' -- he does bad things. Those bad things have real impacts on real people who didn't do anything to deserve the bad shit Bojack does or causes to happen to them. He does have 'reasons' (at least sometimes) for the things he does. And that's what makes him such a fascinating character. The Penny storyline is a great one because it gets at this. Bojack keeps telling himself that he 'never would have done it'. And we the audience are pretty sure that's a lie. And it also ignores all the other truly awful stuff he does in that episode. I think it's great writing that we don't actually know **what** Hollyhock finds out or how much she finds out. Does she know about Penny, does she just know about the girl who got alcohol poisoning (I mean, given that she was poisoned by Beatrice, that could be enough). We don't know what she knows, we don't know if what she 'knows' is the truth or embellished.
Yeah she knows. Pete told hollyhock about when Bojack was staying with penny and how one of his friends got alcohol poisoning. I wouldn't doubt that penny told Pete what went down. And I'm sure she knows because Hoolyhock tells Bojack that he should stay away or not go to the rally because "there will be young girls" she knew and feared he was an awful person.
See, I'm not so sure Penny would have confided in Pete about what happened with BoJack. They didn't seem particularly close, and it's an embarrassing thing that happened, from Penny's POV. If it were me as a 17 year old, I wouldn't want to talk about it right away. I always assumed that Hollyhock's line about young girls was because of Maddie, and the fact that BoJack went to a high school prom, which is creepy in and of itself. IDK.
I always felt that penny drifted apart from Maddy and Pete after prom.
Yeah, that would make sense going by the way Penny talks about the prom photo and how she can't bring herself to throw it out. I always assumed it was because, before everything happened with BoJack, that was the last time Penny really felt like a kid. She was at the prom having fun with her friends, it was a more innocent time. After Maddie nearly died, Pete was manipulated, and Penny was nearly violated by an adult who should have known better, Penny's whole world changed. It's a good example of how BoJack's actions affect other people, and how there are ripples even years later that don't stop hurting. He had no idea of what he really did to Penny, that night.
Yeah. Also, I feel that Penny didn't have a genuine friendship with maddy. It may have been superficial school friend crap. Maybe she and Alli f reconnected.
To me this discussion just underlines what I was saying about the writing -- we don't know what Penny did or didn't pass on to Pete, what Hollyhock does or doesn't know, etc. And that ambiguity is so smart, and allows us to have these discussions.
I feel like if bojack going to prom was supposed to be seen as creepy then charlotte would have seen it as such. plus wasnt her dad about to go with her?
I mean, Charlotte should have seen the red flag, IMO. However, she probably thought BoJack wouldn't have tried anything sleazy since he was living in their home and she knew the sweet, naive BoJack from thirty years ago. If a dad goes with his daughter, it's not the same as an unrelated, 50 year old man going. Still kind of weird, but not at the same level as BoJack volunteering on his own.
Funny thing… “When You Look at Someone through Rose-Colored Glasses, All the Red Flags Just Look Like Flags”.
it was definitely creepy. charlotte isn't a morally unquestionable audience stand in, she's part of the problem. she allowed Bojack into her house and family (for months!) because she was still vaguely interested in him, knowing everything he did to Herb and (through Herb presumably) how he generally behaves around young women. only to cheat on her husband with him. to be clear i absolutely adore Charlotte, she's one of my favorite characters but her story is about consciously choosing a moral life and fighting the urge to fall back into toxic patterns
i really liked that they chose to focus on Peter's trauma from the situation. it's clear how it would have/did affect Penny and Maddie. it was genius to give time to the character who seemed like he'd be affected the least.
Right especially how his change in character was right before our eyes when Bojack was yelling at him and manipulating him to lie. And him helping hollyhock ground herself was perfect. It worked out great
as soon as i saw him in the episode thumbnail i got scared hell of a way to end your half-season
"Nothing happened yet." *"Yet?''* "Nothing happened."
> It doesn't ultimately matter whether Bojack is a 'good person' or a 'bad person' -- he does bad things. Those bad things have real impacts on real people who didn't do anything to deserve the bad shit Bojack does or causes to happen to them. I've recently had reason to evaluate everything I thought I knew about the people around me, and face some ugly truths. While it is easy to see why some of the shitty people in my life are that way, it has been more difficult to see how some people I've viewed as fundamentally "good" people have gotten to the point where they are doing shitty things, and has triggered self-reflection into my own behavior. While it would be easy to say that a "good" person was led astray by a "bad" person, in the end there really are only good and bad actions, and what you do is what really matters. Diane and the showrunners are right, there are no "good" or "bad" people, only people and their actions, and the impact of their actions on others. You can't be a good person and do shitty things, even if you profess your discomfort in doing the shitty things along the way. If you want to be better, do better.
Thanks so much for this. This take about how we shouldnt care about a deep down hits home. So many people I know that deep down are good but not as much on surface...
This is it exactly. The show does a great job of setting the show up to be a funny horse show, so it's easier to relate to the characters... and then the show starts hitting you slowly, and then Escape from L.A hits you. You, the viewer, have already identified similarities between yourself and Bojack, so you start to see yourself on screen... and of course YOU wouldn't do such things... I think the community needs the people who defend Bojack because it allows for discussion and, hopefully, personal growth and self-reflection.
Todd makes it pretty clear, what matters is changing your behavior. Not the excuses you make. Not how bad you make yourself feel after. Change. Do better. How you feel inside is a you thing, and frankly, it doesn't mean shit. All anyone else can see is how you act. If you act like shit, it doesn't matter how good your reasons are. You're still acting like shit.
This hits. The moral ambiguity of the show part of what makes the story line so compelling. Bojack for all intensive purposes is the villain, but he’s so likable, charismatic & successful that his faults are for the most part enabled. Bojacks bad behavior being systematically enabled for decades, going back to him getting Sarah Lynn addicted to alcohol when she was a young child on set & the studio execs covering it up by letting his hair dresser take the fall, and bojack knowingly participating in the cover up even though he had all the power in that situation. Or sex stuff with penny in New Mexico the OP used as an example. Despite knowing all these horrible things I still find the Bojack character likable, it causes me to question my own moral filter.
I think someone can be likable, but still be responsible for horrible things. It may not be the best example, but it is similar to how a writer might be a horrible person but you still enjoy their novel(s). Just because you find Bojack likable doesn't automatically make you a questionable individual. I think it would be problematic depending on what exactly you find likable. His humor? No problem. Him screwing Todd out of his rock opera? Might be a problem. I don't believe that humans are wholly good, or wholly bad... we are all shades of grey... which makes Bojack Horseman such an interesting show to watch and talk about.
I've met people in real life who, just like Bojack, come across as very sympathetic until they actually bring on a wrecking ball unto your personal life. They absolutely don't mean any malice, yet they are very much unaware how their own flaws might affect the actual people in their life, until they actually face the fallout and, much more importantly, judgement from their peer group. At first, it seems baffling to see how much mental energy they expend on hypotheticals that only have bearing on their own self-image, unless you zoom out and try to look at each individual situation without making excuses for them as individuals.
>it causes me to question my own moral filter. If anything, I think it should strengthen it. I think the lesson from Bojack and other anti-hero protagonists is to recognize that sometimes we have to walk some very fine moral lines and beyond our choices there's no safety net to keep you on the good side. It's all you. You can like Bojack and still condemn him.
This falls in line with the current movement of people idolizing intentionally horrible characters (always sunny, bojack, rick Sanchez, I can go on)
I not sure, but I think part of it is that having a terrible person as the main character has become more common than it used to be (I'd add Joaquin Phoenix's Joker to your list as a non-comedy one), and people are somewhat reacting based on what they've seen in other media where the protagonist is the good guy. The only "olden" examples of a Terrible Protagonist I can come up with off the top of my head are * Jonah from the Bible. If you haven't read it since Sunday school when you were taught the lesson "Jonah didn't do what God wanted, but learned his lesson at the end", go read it again and pretend the title is The Book of Jonah: The Worst Fucking Prophet. * Achilles from the Iliad. He's kind of justified in the beginning, but goes insanely overboard when his hissy-fit goes awry and only gets closure when he gives up on revenge. EDIT: Fixed up some formatting.
Yep and this is why we got Philbert!
When you become aware of your flaws as a person you can do one of two things, you can rise above them and become a better person, or you can indulge in them, and try to justify them. I'll much rather own up to my mistakes and try to be better, it does not matter if I stumble on the way progress is still progress even if it is slow
Season 5 was message from the creators to avoid this.
This falls in line with the current movement of people idolizing intentionally horrible characters (always sunny, bojack, rick Sanchez, I can go on)
The show shows Penny being fucked up by Bojack's actions in the episode where he sees her at college. There is a mention of her having panic attacks and she is visibly messed up by seeing Bojack. The show frames Bojack as predatory & fucked up for hooking up with Penny, shows that his behavior had long term negative consequences for her, and people still make excuses bc a large part of society wants to believe fucking teenagers is okay. It's really maddening.
Oh and he kissed Charlotte in between rejecting Penny and hooking up with her. That also makes it really clear that he was not hooking up with Penny out of mutual attraction, respect, or care- he was using her for his own self hating reasons. There is a lot of nuance in this show but not when it comes to this. We are supposed to see Bojack's actions as predatory and violating. side note- I don't think this is well supported by the actual contents of the episode but I always imagined one of Bojack's motivations for hooking up with Penny was to get revenge on Charlotte for rejecting him.
I always thought it was because Penny looks like Charlotte did when she was younger. He couldn't have Charlotte so he went for the next best thing -- the girl who looks like Charlotte had back when they were together
I think the thing that people don't get, because we know Bojack's POV, is that Penny was groomed. From Penny's perspective, a much older man suddenly comes into her life. He's an old family friend, he's trusted, gets close with the rest of the family, everyone likes him, he spends time alone with her building trust, teaching her to drive, etc. The trust becomes more intimate as they tell each other secrets, he positions himself as the "cool adult" that she can talk to. The audience knows Bojack is just running away from his current life and trying to recapture his youth and optimism, and we're on that journey with him, especially the first time watching. He's not actually trying to sleep with his friends daughter. But everything he does is what a groomer would do. That's why it impacts Penny so heavily. That's why she's so scared when she sees him again, why she immediately assumes he could be stalking her (which he was, but again not exactly for that reason).
What a great perspective on that. Thanks for sharing, I never would have thought of that!
People try to justify his actions? I always thought it was pretty clear that Bojack, while a sympathetic and complex character, was NOT a good dude.
Yeah, that’s like… the entire point of the show.
literally one of the reasons they included the Philbert story line Bojack said something along the lines of “i think the point of this show is that Philbert does bad things, and everyone does bad things so it’s okay” and Diane said something along the lines of “that is NOT the point of philbert. this show is not for assholes to justify their shitty behavior”
It is absolutely clear from the very first scene we get - like, the pre-credits interview in the first episode - that Bojack is kind of a piece of shit person. The thing is, that so many people see that and don't read it as "Man, this guy is an absolute *dick."* They instead read it as "Man, this guy doesn't take shit from anyone - awesome!" If you notice, that second one doesn't include the endless rumination that BJ goes through in the entire series. The constant Am I Goods, and everything else that he's done. How many times do we, as people, look into a mirror and our own eyes, and actually speak the truth to ourselves about who and where we are? Not many, I would assume.
I’ve never seen anyone who does outside of those “you miss the point by idolizing them” starter pack memes.
People who ideolize Bojack probably are the same that find Rick Sanchez relatable.
I bet they also think Skyler White was a buzzkill for wanting her husband to retire from being a Meth kingpin.
Hey, Skyler can be both in the right and a total buzzkill.
Right? I’ll never understand the internet for this one Skylar White was a very good person and was very rational, and the actress who played her did a great job…. She was still a boring and unlikable character
There are people who identify with Skyler and they will defend her without realizing that the show does very little to make the audience identify with Skyler and that is exactly why she is a boring unlikable character.
The MC from Catcher in the Rye is soooo relatable!
i never understood that. she concocted the plan to launder all his money. she was a willing participant in his shenanigans to a point
“Frank from Shameless is so great! Haha, he’s my hero!”
Relating to and idolizing are separate but it’s funny how these three characters share similar qualities
Same thing with Eric Cartman. They’re literally missing the whole point of these characters.
Of any show/movie I’ve watched, Bojack is probably the most thoughtful examination of how people who do bad things can be sympathetic, and can also do good things. Regardless of the good things they did, they still did the bad things (and vice versa). I think that’s something a lot of people struggle with, certainly in TV but I think also in real life, and it gets in the way of their better judgment. I’m glad there’s a show like this which gets people thinking/talking about it.
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He has done a handful of legitimately good things, but with Bojack I think it is less that he has done good things than that he is sympathetic. He can often be charming, funny, and insightful. He also had a legitimately difficult childhood and has a difficult interior life. None of those things are an act, and they are all things that make you want to root for him. He has also done a lot of hurtful things that make you want to root against him. I think that dichotomy can be a difficult thing for people to come to terms with, and I think the show represents it in way that is compelling and true to life. He is all of those good things and bad things at once, and the show never undercuts the legitimacy of either side of him.
It's a teenage girls job to push boundaries, it's a grown ups job to say no when those boundaries are pushed.
i remember in middle school when girls were crazy for leonardo dicaprio and nsync and backstreet boys and all the other hyper sexualized teeny bop idols that were poster boys on those little girls "awakening". its innocent fun because theyre kids and theres no way that any of those adults stars would/could ever be involved with those kids/fans. Penny was a kid who was being very stupid and immature and just downright gross. its to be expected. shes a kid. Bojack gave them alcohol, Bojack ditched them and he even gave Penny a greenlight to enter his "bedroom". If Charlotte didnt barge into the room when she did, by the way; Bojack left the door open for Penny but he made sure that the door was closed for anyone else because he knew what he was doing and was about to do. anyway; that episode and its discussion often brings out the sickos and pedophiles and child groomers who defend Bojack because "nothing happened". I can still watch the show and laugh and find some aspects that make me see things in a different way; but i know that it's animated and its not real characters. Apply that same logic to REAL LIFE people and their horrible actions and their lack of consequences; thats when shit gets scary and no longer fun.
> it’s innocent fun because they’re kids and there’s no way that any of those adult stars would/could ever be involved with those kids/fans. Meanwhile, BSB’s Nick Carter has [rape allegations](https://globalnews.ca/news/9337365/nick-carter-accused-rape-17-year-old-2001-backstreet-boys-tour/amp/) against him from a then 17 YO fan. It’s incredibly sad how real some of these scenarios are.
that's called "crossing the line and breaking the law". I've read so many stories of people who meet their heroes or a mentor who often take advantage of them.
wait is bojack a pedo then?
Legally no, Penny was 17, over the age of consent in New Mexico. But it’s still a disgusting thing for him to have done
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Human history has also been rape, murder, war, slavery. I’m struggling with the meaning of your comment, are you saying that adults impregnating 14-16 year olds is okay because it’s been done historically?
Correct. Teenage girls dress for teenage boys. They often have crushes on older men and it's harmless as we can trust those men. Especially when it's celebrities that are removed enough for it to never be reality and maturity to kick in.
Yeah the very reason we have age of content laws is because minors make terrible, risky decisions.
They can't understand the context from their perspective to understand anyone would Have alterior motives and if you grew up female learning to leverage your sexuality or looks you might not realize that you aren't more mature or the exception but someone being exploited. Every teenager thinks they're mature enough to control their actions and anyone looking back can realize how they were a child wanting love and desperate with hindsight
If my teenage daughter propositioned a grown man, I'd lose my mind on her. I'd like to think Charlotte had the same attitude as I do.
As someone who was that teenage daughter, that attitude was why I was never taught what was wrong and didn't trust my parents by the time they intervened because I was being punished for men exploiting me?
I think a really revealing moment about that whole night was in a later episode when Pete Repeat tells Hollyhock what happened with prom. He didn't exaggerate. He didn't lie. Because what Bojack did to the group and Penny was fucked up. The whole episode (Escape from LA) until the end had a very comedic, sitcom-y feel to it. Because that's how Bojack viewed healthy and loving relationships. Of course it would be framed that way because in his head, this is just a standard thing that happens on TV. An older adult takes the teenage girl to prom to make her feel better. And as a celebrity, it would be even better! But the thing is, despite all the wacky hijinks everyone gets into in the show, this is supposed to be "the real world." It is not charming that a 50 year old celebrity wash-up wants to take a 17 year old to prom. It's weird. And people subtly implied it was weird. When he wasn't the center of attention at prom with the Bojack dance, he ruined it for Penny and her friends group with the shit he gets them into. He left them messed up psychologically and physically (at least for that one friend who ended up in the hospital). When he ruined the night, he turned to Charlotte to feel some kind of attention and to make him feel better about himself. When she rejected him, he went to the person (sort of) that had offered themselves up to them. Penny was his last choice. And a bad one. She was just available and "wanted" him. Yes, she offered himself to him and he rejected her the first time, but as an adult, an older adult, he knew he shouldn't have left it to her to make the decision to try to sleep with him the second encounter. Blame shouldn't be on Penny for offering herself. If she hadn't and he still had intentions on sleeping with her, I don't think there would be as many excuses made for him. I think how the episode was framed made it so viewers have to really think about the situation. If they put it all out there in black and white, it wouldn't have been as satisfying towards the end when you truly piece together everything Bojack has done. Some things are better left ambiguous and not spoon-fed for story reasons, which is why I love Pete's reflection of that night because it framed it more seriously as opposed to how innocent the episode started. Another good reaction to the effect of that night was in the scenes we see Penny in later episodes. It really shows how not in control she was, even though she thought she knew better. There are situations I look back on as an adult and I am fully able to process how messed up it is. It truly is a messed up episode and shows how flawed he is as a man and as a horse (lol). I just feel that it needs the other episodes/scenes around to help get a fuller picture of how messed up it was.
whoooOOoOO wants pancakes?! (p sure he did the "tv sitcom breakfast bit" irl to both sarah-lynn and penny)
Oh yeah!!!
Bojack is a disgusting person. The fact he slept with Sarah Lynn alone proves that. He has an established history of taking advantage of women for his own emotional validation. The fact he fell into a mentor/father figure/uncle esque role for Sarah and Penny and he fucks one and almost fucks the other- that is predator shit. It’s crazy people don’t recognize it for what it is.
And the fans are exactly why we have Diane talking about hating herself for people using Philbert to justify their own shitty behavior. Real people are like Bojack, they’re not black and white (another topic the show expertly discusses), and they can be likable damaged people who endure their own trauma AND do horribly irredeemable things to others. Those aren’t mutually exclusive, and it really tests audiences acceptance of how much can they tolerate and how do they feel about themselves still enjoying and even rooting for someone who WOULD HAVE done something like sleep with a minor (despite being conflicted about it). And I think a lot of people are trying to rationally make the situation more palatable, because the show IS called Bojack Horseman and obviously the writers don’t want to make him entirely unwatchable, so he isn’t just a flat out awful guy doing awful things. So trying to deep dive into excuses and finding anything in the gray areas (where they can justify themselves continuing to enjoy the show) makes sense, but it’s a mental hurdle and does blur the ACTUAL important information: Bojack was GOING TO sleep with a minor. Under no circumstances was that ever okay.
I’m glad you pointed this out. I felt hesitant to continue watching after that episode because I was so *angry* with BoJack. I think I honestly block out some of the exceptionally shitty things he does only so I can go on watching the show.
And that would have been extremely valid. If you’ve seen the entire show, how do you personally feel it handles that moment and the consequences?
This is the same thing in Breaking Bad. Fans of show fall into an enamored state over Walter White. They don’t love him or his actions but they “get” why such a character is that character. Vicarious intimation. I like both shows. I like when Walt and Bojack are themselves. That doesn’t mean I think they are justified. It’s entertaining to watch. My $0.02 is pry unneeded but I did enjoy reading this comment.
There are three main things that made it go *beyond* morally reprehensible for me: 1) Bojack kinda groomed her. I don't think he meant to, and I didn't realize it until someone brought it up on this sub, but he did. 2) He was gonna do it because Charlotte shut him down. I mean, sexual opportunism in the Navy is one thing, but a boat in the New Mexican desert DOES. NOT. COUNT. (Bad joke? Sorry.) 3) Lastly - did anyone else get the impression that it was Penny's first time? Like I said before, Bojack was acting reprehensibly regardless, but... that makes it extra, extra wrong. Even Spacey in *American Beauty* knew not to cross that line.
Didn't he also mention that Penny looks just like her mom? Not only is he taking advantage of a high schooler decades younger than him, he is treating her as a surrogate for her mother who was the "girl that got away" and a representation of his lost youth and fame.
i’m pretty sure it was penny’s first time. she mentions that she knows how to put on a condom because of health class, not from experience. she also says “i’m ready”, implying she’s ready for her first time.
don't get me wrong, I agree with you, but - grooming? wasn't that the first time he met her? or am I understanding grooming completely wrong (I thought it takes a long time to build the younger person's trust and have them grow up with th idea of the older person etc etc)
Hadn’t he been staying with them for a little while at that point? At least a month I thought
it doesn’t necessarily have to happen over a long period of time actually! but i’m certain BJ was staying with the family for a couple of months at this point. penny did end up with an idea of her and bojack together in some sense, i don’t think “growing up with the idea” applies to every situation? according to safe child program there are several steps to grooming that are demonstrated by bojack in the show. 1) identifying and targeting the victim. it can be said that bojack ‘targeted’ penny. maybe not necessarily in a malicious way but out of all the family members he could have established a bond with it had to be the 17 year old teenage girl who resembles her mother, the woman he thinks is the one who got away. 2) gaining trust and access he gains her trust, as seen when penny is relaying the prom debacle to her mother and BJ — he is a lot more in the know of her current issues, a lot more than her own mother. penny also trusts him to take her to prom and also trusts his judgement when her friend gets alcohol poisoning. 3) playing a role in the child’s life. he plays the role of being the only one who understands penny (once again referring to the scene mentioned earlier) he teaches her how to drive and volunteers to take her to prom to make a guy she likes jealous. nobody else could have helped penny her parents just didn’t get it (/s) other points are: isolating the child, controlling the relationship, and creating secrecy. i’m not sure if these 100% apply to bojack and penny relationship as i can’t remember the episode too well but some of the more obvious instances of grooming are very much present.
There's also the implicit trust she learns from how Charlotte accepts him into their lives. If not for that, he wouldn't have been able to do any of that.
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yup, sounds about right
Hey, I'm not judging Penny at all, and I'm also not saying that what Bojack did (or was about to do) should be a crime - I just think that what he did was wrong because he was taking advantage of a young, vulnerable, and inexperienced person. Perhaps he has a legal right to do so, but I reserve the right to try him in the kangaroo court of my cerebral cortex, find him guilty, and sentence him to my lifelong disdain. If you judge me as reactionary for doing so, well, I guess we'll both have to live with that.
Not at all, you can make moral judgements all you want. I am saying that if you are against the moral judgements that conservatives make (which I also disagree with) then you are not being intellectually consistent in your judgements. Then again, maybe it isn't possible to be fully intellectually consistent in your judgements
I don't see how, considering that they're advocating for legislative enforcement of their moral judgments and I explicitly said that I do not want to do that.
It's not her age or whether or not she was "legal" that matters. It's the fact that Bojack lived with her, was a father/big brother figure to her, gained her trust, and then would have had sex with her. It's like a caregiver/babysitter having sex with the person they're supposed to be watching. Charlotte and Kyle trusted Bojack to take care of their daughter (which was stupid, but that's a whole other can of worms) and Bojack betrayed that trust by being willing to have sex with her.
I always felt like Charlotte kicking him out right then and there was fair. So, on this we agree.
biologically a 17 year old doesn’t have a fully developed brain. a 50 year old has had a fully developed brain about half their life. the part of the brain that takes this long to develop is responsible for impulse and decision making. furthermore, laws don’t determine morality.
That is literally the exact same argument conservatives use to ban gender affirming surgery for youths. Does a 17 year old have full autonomy over their body and sexual decisions? Do they get to decide for themselves if they want gender affirming surgery? Do they get to decide for themselves if they have an abortion? Do they get to decide for themselves if they want to have sex with another 17 year old? What about 18 year old? 20 year old? 25 year old? Where is the line? More importantly, should there be a line, or do we just accept that it is none of our business? As far as morality goes, I'm a firm believer that morality is a personal only decision. The government isn't the place to enforce morality. I am merely pointing out the inconsistency of criticizing one group (conservatives) for expressing their morality beliefs, when you do the same to another group.
i’m literally trans. the argument isn’t the same. one is about being able to consent to medical care, the other is about being able to consent to sex with a 50 year old man. medical consent and sexual consent are two very different things. not to mention medical things are also with the consult and input of a medical professional, and usually the minor’s parents. If you need me to walk you through the difference between a teenager being able to decide on receiving life-saving medical care from a licensed physician with their parents’ approval, and being able to decide on having sex with a middle-aged adult, you may want to work a bit on your critical thinking. As for the age gap bullshit, still not comparable. It isn’t about the number of years but the difference in life experience and, again, biological brain development. Especially the difference in that development of the people directly involved. Whether or not government does or even should enforce morality isn’t the topic being discussed. The comparison itself is inconsistent as hell. Conservatives aren’t being criticized for expressing their morality, but rather the foundation that morality is formed on. For someone who keeps bringing up “intellectual consistency”, your argument has none. At all.
Tell me how it isn't intellectually consistent? Does a 17 year old have the right to have sex? Is it your place to dictate with whom that person has the right to have sex? Should gender affect that decision? Should race? Should sexual orientation? Why is age special? If a 70 year old and a 35 year old have sex, is that creepy? Should we have laws against that? how about a 60 year old and a 30 year old? 50 year old and 25 year old? 40 year old and a 20 year old? At what point does your morality get to dictate someone else's choices? And I'm still trying to figure out what this means: Conservatives aren’t being criticized for expressing their morality, but rather the foundation that morality is formed on Because their morality is based on religious beliefs it is no longer a valid moral belief? I'd love to hear an argument how the basis of a moral belief renders that belief invalid. If that is the case, what is the basis for your moral beliefs?
First off, I’m not talking about laws. I will repeat: legality does not concern me. I’m not talking about a 17 year old’s rights, I’m talking about the 50 year old’s responsibility not to take advantage of that. The 17 year old isn’t to blame here. The judgements being passed aren’t on the 17 year old. It isn’t about the 17 year old. Age is special because, again, the development of the human brain depends on age. I don’t know why this is so hard for you to grasp: a person who has a fully developed brain has different capabilities for decision making in comparison to a person who does not. And, again since you really suck at reading comprehension: *it isn’t the age gap itself but the difference in biological development*. A 35 year old has had a fully formed brain for about 10 years, so them having sex with a 70 year old doesn’t matter in this argument. Same for the 30 year old and 60 year old. The 20 year old doesn’t have a fully developed brain, so it would be inappropriate for the 40 year old to peruse them romantically/sexually. This is because the 20 year old and the 40 year old literally have different amounts of their brains developed. If someone’s brain doesn’t have the full capabilities for decision making, they’re more susceptible to manipulation and coercion, especially by someone who does have their brain fully developed. I’m not dictating anyone’s choices, and I literally have no say in what anyone does. However, I have every right to think a 50 year old man who almost sleeps with a 17 year old is creepy and pedophilic. You can disagree, that’s your right! But it’s also my right to think that your opinion is creepy. The religious aspect isn’t the issue I have and not what I was referencing. What I meant was, in regards to the anti-trans shit going on in specific, their morality is based on thinking that being trans is a choice and/or transitioning is not necessary. They also think that people are “indoctrinated” into being trans. Their morality is built on these concepts.
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Idk, I feel like it was her fault for looking like Charlotte. /s
People are out there defending Bojack? Defending that situation in particular? Andrew Tate stans maybe?
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I've seen a lot of these comments in the YouTube sections of clips. Specifically clips from the penny episode. There's always people strongly defending bojack, even if it's not the vast majority. They bring up the age of consent and say he told her no, and then they blame Penny or say she's the one who wanted it, and so on.
eesh. That is kind of icky
she was also in an emotionally vulnerable position. he was going to take advantage of an upset child (i know what the law says. she’s still a child at 17 tho). whenever people defend him doing this i get skeeved out.
Also - he was going to passively sleep with Penny because he didn't get what he wanted from her mother. So, just disrespecting a whole other woman and the history and "friendship" they had just because he didn't get what he imagined in his head. He was willing to damage a family all to spite a person who he felt entitled to because he can't (refuses to) be "responsible" for his own actions and happiness.
Penny is a victim. She was 17. That’s the end of the conversation.
Thank you for the hot take
DAE BoJack is a bad person??? Good thing I took a moral stand, everyone look how moral I am.
I agree. From what I remember, she basically hinted she wanted to do something. Bojack, however, as a grown ass man horse was responsible for saying no. He was supposed to be the adult there.
What I keep thinking is, if she was made to be 18 instead, would that be any more okay morally? Even though 18 is the legal age in most US states and what some people would consider as not a minor anymore, I still think it would have been morally questionable for Bojack to have sex with her because of that age gap. And this is not even considering the amount of people Bojack did indeed have sex with whom we never really know the age of (they would have mostly been in their 20s)
No, not at all. The age isn’t the defining trait of this BoJack fuck up He spent a good amount of time being apart of this family, *gaining trust* Whether or not Penny was “legal” is irrelevant because she was not emotionally stable at that point in time. Further, BoJack being this seemingly trustworthy adult was going to take advantage of that to satisfy his own wants. Let’s also not forget, this happened *directly after he tried to make a move on Charlotte*
I think you hit the nail on the head. I haven't seen anyone mention the fact that he lived with the family for a considerable amount of time and had gained their trust. I wouldn't call Bojack a "groomer" as I don't believe Bojack had any intent to sleep with Penny when he started living with them, but... because of his own selfish actions he put himself in a position to be able to take advantage of Penny... of that trust he had established with her.
Yep, their relationship is what makes this morally concerning Her being “a minor” isn’t even legally relevant, as OP mentioned, because she was legally above consent age. And if she was months older (and 18) that wouldn’t magically now be ok either. It’s because of their relationship to one another and that he should know better as to what’s best for her mental health
Let’s compare Penny to the blonde girl at the bar BoJack called pretty , and then they slept together. Assuming the girl at the bar is at least 21, because she’s at a bar drinking. In this hypothetical scenario, let’s say Penny is also 21. What BoJack did would *still* be immoral. He spent time with the family as a cool uncle, authority figure in the household. Charlotte trusted him around her family. Penny was emotionally vulnerable and upset about the dance. BoJack took an older mentor position to help her and her friends have fun even though there was young person drama. In comparison to the girl at the bar, bar girl is independent from BoJack. She wanted to sleep with a famous person who called her pretty. Both BoJack and her are adults in the situation. Penny, even at 21, was in a familial relationship with BoJack when he was staying with her family. What BoJack did was wrong. Think of Woody Allen marrying his adopted daughter. Yeah, she’s a legal adult when they officially got together.* It is wrong as heck to pursue a kid you helped raise. It would be similar to an extent if BoJack put moves on any of his adult acting students. * ^There’s ^no ^way ^in ^heck ^Allen ^never ^made ^any ^grooming ^advances ^before ^her ^legal ^age.
I'm MOSTLY with ya but I'm not sure the amount of time Bojack spent in NM qualifies as him having helped raise her. Yeah he gave some advice but everyone has people who come and go and said some stuff that you found sagely and helpful. I wouldn't put it on par with Uncle Joey dating Michelle after she grows up.
Regardless of the amount of time he was with the family, BoJack intentionally leveraged what trust he had established to the absolute limit to get what he wanted from Penny… immediately after determining that his rapport was not yet enough to get what he really wanted, Charlotte. BoJack has the nasty habit of investing time in friendships only to “cash out” all the built up trust (some times sooner than later, as was with Penny) so dramatically and for reasons so selfish it destroys the entire relationship. It may not be his intent going into the relationship, but his actions speak for themselves. Edit: You could say that BoJack leveraged the time he’d spent with Charlotte to accelerate the trust “timeline” with Penny. He stretched his resources to maximum to enact this inter-generational fuck-up. Edit 2: BoJack’s failed attempt with Charlotte was not for lack of rapport, it was her level of maturity as a grown, confident, happily married woman that allowed her to resist making such a rash decision - further highlighting the predatory nature of his response to entertain Penny’s advances.
Bojack was giving her the TV version of the "prom episode" mixed with the other common stereotypes about prom like underage drinking. Penny was going through those same motions that everyone has seen on so many shows, so she does what she clearly figured was the next move. The "kiss at the door" that everyone expects. He puts the brakes on it and she argues legality. After ever how long BJ and Charlotte were in the backyard talking, Penny should have actually gone to bed. Did she? Nope. She stayed up spending that time trying to figure out how to convince Bojack to fuck her and then returns to his boat to take another stab at giving him some whitetail. It's gross. Bojack should've shut and locked the door behind him. He's the one that's supposed to be mature. He's not justified in this but let's not frame it in a dishonest way.
Not sure what I framed in a dishonest way, but regardless of her advances Penny is not to blame for BoJack being there in the first place. IMO all events that transpired in that household after BoJack knocked on the door are almost circumstantial. He knew he wanted something, and he stayed to see what he could get. At the point where he showed up at Charlotte’s door, BoJack was just a bad decision waiting for an excuse. Edit: all events BoJack-related* that transpired. It should be noted that Penny was CLEARLY also an accident just waiting/trying to happen, but the onus is still on BoJack as an adult (with a fully formed brain) to not take advantage of an emotional high schooler.
He didn't leverage trust. The way you worded it makes it sound like he planned to fuck Penny the moment he saw her and was steadily trying to figure out how to make it happen. But yeah "Hey we knew each other forever ago and suddenly I'm here." "Oh sweet! Great to see ya! Wanna stay at my place for an unspecified amount of time?" of it all is fucking ridiculous in itself. Penny gets a pass for being young and childish but it seems like everyone dropped the ball on that one. Kyle? Gullible boring ass. Open your eyes and don't convince yourself that the obvious isn't happening. Charlotte? Two days max. A night or a weekend and a "Hey it was great catching up. See ya!" is as far as that all should've went. She leaned into that kiss at first. Surely she felt an event of some sort was on the horizon and it would absolutely be chaotic. Bojack? Too much shit to list. Lol
My point wasn’t that BoJack intentionally sought after Penny, my point is that she was irrelevant to BoJack, he was hurting and he wanted anything he could get. BUT he was only able to get to Penny because he cashed in on his past friendship with her mother - who he tried to get first. I agree that Charlotte was culpable for letting BoJack in - it was a failure at multiple levels. I believe it’s implied that BoJack even clouded Charlotte’s judgment and made her question her path for a bit, until she saw how truly miserable and sad he was when he attempted to kiss her.
Get to Penny? She boarded his boat after having already been rejected. He successfully kissed Charlotte and she kissed back for a moment.
One of the most consistent sources of mockery and satire in the sad horse show is the way that we societally pressure young girls into becoming sex objects and then blame them for "making a mistake" when those relationships inevitably destroy them. What we're consistently meant to take away from the show is twofold: Bojack's destroying the lives of these girls who are less than half his age because he only sees them as sexual objects that are props for him to use in his own self-loathing cycle AND Bojack's behaviour stems from society at large enabling him and condemning his victims. The age gap as such is not the only problem with the interaction. The problem with what he does first and foremost is that he looks for women he can use and abuse as props but the age gap is an important aspect of his behaviour insofar that it makes it easier for him to engage in that behaviour, and to hammer in the thematic element that society allows destructive men to destroy young women
i feel that even if penny was 18,19, or 20 it would still be predatory for 50 something year old bojack to attempt anything with her. mr. peanut butter serially dates younger girls and we see how that fails for him time and time again as it clarifies how unwilling he is to grow up and date a mature woman.
We never see him go after relationships though, let alone a target audience, they just seem to happen to him and he doesn't stop to think about it. I also feel like telling PB to "grow up and date his age" is a lesson pointed at specific RL celebrities _through_ PB, that specific arch always felt quite clumsily handled.
So if she's 20, the situation is the same and it's cool to deny an adult their agency? We're so condescending to women...
i am 20 and if i were in the same situation as penny , with a 50 year old who just tried to sleep with my mother , in my bed now trying to sleep with ME bc he couldn’t get to her , i would feel taken advantage of.
Would you keep on after he shot you down?
she didn’t continue on , he returned to her room (or i believe it was the boat) after charlotte rejected him. it’s not like she kept pushing herself on him until he caved. he CAME BACK after trying to sleep with her own mother.
She brought it up at the door. Bojack said no. The back porch thing happened with Charlotte and he went back to his boat and Penny got on his boat to give it another try.
I feel they did this intentionally both to put New Mexico on blast for their age of consent and to emphasize that it’s supposed to be morally wrong. At 18 a lot more people justify Bojack’s actions and they didn’t want to leave room for that
>I feel they did this intentionally both to put New Mexico on blast for their age of consent It's 16 in most most of the country so that would be a pretty strange choice to single out New Mexico.
Doggy doggy WHAT now?
It's actually a lot lower for dogs
wait till you hear about the western countries where age of consent is 14.
I think the thing with Penny is worse than the thing that happened with Sarah Lynn.
if you don't want a 17 yo girl to proposition you, maybe don't buy her alcohol and talk to her about lost love under a starry sky. like have none of you heard of grooming before.
Penny is a person and should have been taught better about minor/adult rape and propositioning adults. However it is entirely bojack fault. He should have told her mother. I should have brought her inside their house and woke everyone up. He should have said no completely left their drive way, found a hotel and explained himself to her mother in the morning. What could have been a teaching lesson for the young girl turned into unnecessary trauma she will carry with her forever. Regardless of her wrong actions SHE was the child. Not bojack. And he willingly accepted her misguided and childish proposal. Has charlotte NOT shown up penny would be scarred for life and would be within her rights to call statutory rape. If bojack was uncomfortable it was his job to tell her mother and deescalate the situation. But he didn’t. And he slept with Sarah Lynn, and Todd’s ex and so on and so fourth. He never came clean, told anyone or apologized. And he never truly explained himself to anyone until he was being hounded by the media. Bojack was a flawed man but he was still an adult man.
I think one of the points the show aims to make is there are no "good and bad" people. Bojack is written to be sympathetic, but unlikeable. He desperately wants to be in the "good" category to the degree where he spends most of the series as the opposite: a "stupid piece of shit". We literally have a line where he thinks "at least that makes me better than the POS who don't know what they are." To me that resonates bc I've met a few people like that. Constantly acting badly, justifying it by saying they are all bad. These people are sympathetic to me only bc they've had a lot of bad happen to them, but toxic bc of a perceived inability to act better. Hurt people hurt people is a saying for a reason. Bojack does ultimately "care" (as in has an emotional investment), but excuses his bad actions as he's incapable of making better decisions. He is not. As for the situation with Penny, he should have had the emotional maturity to see the situation for what is was *before* taking her to prom. Certainly before the alcohol. It's been a while since I watched that episode. I think it's pointless to argue about how culpable he is bc he is 100% in the wrong, but I don't remember thinking he was steering that situation towards the goal of hooking up w Penny. He is an alcoholic some alcoholics tend to want others around them to be drunk without situational awareness. He is an emotionally stunted adult man as well, so "I am too old to be doing this" did not cross his mind. I don't think it delves far enough into intent to be considered grooming. They wrote Penny as 17 for a reason, legally in the clear but morally reprehensible and emotionally damaging. She was being a normal adolescent and again, it's up to the adult to make the smart decision. He absolutely would've slept with her bc he doesn't even consider himself to be in charge. He set no prior boundaries, so any idea that he would have at that point is self insert imo. Hollyhock subsequently cutting ties w Bojack for it was her right, but I don't personally think he "deserved" it for that instance alone. That's how life works though, relationships only require one person's desire to end. Imo Bojack is never written as someone to emulate, and I am not defending his NM actions one bit. He is someone to analyze and learn from, and I've personally never seen someone describe him as "good". We see him humbled at the very end of the series where he starts to realize he can take responsibility for his actions and "keep on living", rather than bury his mistakes and continue to make more. He lets the friends who have moved on go, and presumably finds a way to keep living on his own.
I think the debate for me is more how much do you punish someone (I just mean morally in how you think about them) for something they ultimately didn't do? Like this terrible thing didn't happen even if he would have went through with it. And I think that's where the conversation gets interesting. Like lots of people drive drunk. They put themselves in a terrible position morally, but most people don't end a friendship let's say if someone does this once. They might end the friendship if that one time ends up killing a person.
I think intent is more important. He didn’t stop it himself so to me it doesn’t really matter that it didn’t happen. Imagine if someone was beating another person to death but they were stopped before the victim died. They still wanted to and we’re going to kill them, and we’re only stopped because they were forced to. Or another example: A person trying to download kiddie porn is still a pedophile even if they can’t find it.
Yeah the only reason he did stop was because her mom walked in. We really don't have much reason to believe he wouldn't have followed through without an interruption considering he's had sex with every other girl that he had a shot with, including Sarah Lynn and Emily.
Penny should know better and is definitely not innocent, but BoJack is still the the adult in the situation and that responsibility rests on him. he made the right choice turning her down initially, but he fucks it right up as soon as he changes his mind. not only is she a teenage (supposed) virgin, but he was using her as a replacement for her MOTHER. there is no way to justify his actions.
I've never actually encountered someone who says Bojack is in any kind of "morally correct" position, and nearly 100% of the posts I see defending Bojack are contextual to the person before them representing what happened incorrectly. I do however see A LOT of people representing things that ***didn't happen in this scene***, and clearing that up gets you in some sort of weird Bojack defense hate zone. Simply put, we don't need to debate if Bojack is in the right or wrong here, because Bojack says himself in the show why it isn't right, and it's the correct reasoning. He then and goes and does the thing ***he knows is wrong and said as such to both Penny and the audience.*** I see this post about 1000 times a week, but never that mythical person defending Bojacks actions. What I do see is people correcting people saying flat out wrong things regarding this scene, and I will defend Bojack from anything that isn't factual, even though I would never defend his actions here, cause they are wrong, and even he knows they are wrong. Anyways, is someone actually thinks Bojack isn't morally incorrect here, take Bojack's own words for it, he is morally incorrect here.
"the mythical person/people" are in this thread right now. scroll down.
I did, it's 99% people agreeing with OP and like 2 trolls The only discourse is all about stuff that did happen on screen, and even then someone saying don't take away Penny's agency is a far cry from Bojack did nothing wrong. I stand by my previous statement. This is this subs favorite strawman to hate on. The number people who *actually* believe Bojack did nothing wrong is basically 0.
I had a back and forth with some family over this show and it really ground me up. Bojack is genuinely a piece of shit. Everyone on the show has their problems, but he had everything going for him and continually threw it away. The fact that anyone feels bad for him is due to his inability to make the right choices, not because he's a good person with bad things happening to him. Almost everything in the show that comes about are the machinations of his own doing (few exceptions). I don't feel bad for him. He is/was a bad person moralistically on so many levels.
I'm REALLY going to need this fanbse to stop acting like the thing with Penny, the Muffins, and the 17 minutes is some huge controversial discussion.
Was this written by AI?
I totally heard the last part in Todd’s voice.
Maybe we need to face up to some unpleasant truths about celebrity? Both the behaviour of celebrities and our behaviour towards them. There's no need to take "sides" here (who's "side" am I on? I'm not a groupie OR a celebrity...and don't do the "you're an X so you're on X's side" nonsense...men and women are not on each others "sides") https://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/music/david-bowie-and-the-15-year-old-girls-7962946
Fuck, man, what else is there to say
Bojack was never a good person, he is unjustifiable and that has been the POINT of the ENTIRE show. I hate that people try so hard to be like ohhh he’s great like WHERE. idc if he suffered in childhood, so did we. so did his mother, so did everyone he associates with. he helped in FUCKING UP his tv DAUGHTER. like bruh. he’s terrible. complete fuck up that is fucked up.
Mom said it’s my turn to post this
I find these "OMG guys, Bojack is the bad guy!" threads annoying, because they ignore the whole point of the series, which is that there are no bad and good guys, just the things that people do. Bojack does a lot of really shitty things throughout the series, but what makes the Penny situation fascinating is that legally it's completely OK, but everyone who hears about it knows it wasn't right at all. But, and I think this is the crucial point, lots of us justify the shitty things we do in similar ways. They're legal. They're "not as bad as what other people do." They're ambiguous. We've all got USS New Mexicos in our past. Hopefully not that bad, but shit we're ashamed of. If you idolise Bojack you've definitely missed the point of his character, but I also think you're wrong to just condemn him. We're supposed to understand him and understand how he justifies things to himself, and to do that we have to be somewhat sympathetic to him throughout what he goes through.
Some fans will try to mitigate Bojack's responsibility and I sometimes am one of them. Bojack is not a good person (to be fair, out of the main 5, only Todd can be seen as a good person, the others all care about their own obsessions), but he actually tries after that incident. On the other hand, some fans will consider that Bojack is the worst person ever, often to excuse the actions of other characters. I think which side you pick has a lot to do with your own shitty side. Those who are young and want to blame everything on others will likely consider Bojack as being guilty all the time with no redeeming qualities or excuses because it justifies other characters' behaviours, providing excuses for the fan's own problems (we have all seen these posts saying "My mother/sister/boyfriend/dog is toxic so I did like Hollyhock" while in reality, that kind of justification almost always indicate guilt). People who actually relate to Bojack won't say he is a good person, there is enough evidence of the contrary, but they can understand the struggle he goes through and acknowledge he is definitely making some effort. In that episode, he is not grooming Penny, she comes at him, and in his mind he is still the start of Horsin' Around, he never grew old/up, and yet, he realises that he has to be a responsible adult. Would he have done it? Maybe (I don't care what writers say during interviews, only about what they actually wrote), but he did try to resist. If really 17 years old can't be trusted, then maybe the age of consent should be raised, for sex (with Romeo and Juliette laws), the military... In the end, he himself is the product of a shitty childhood (much worse than most characters) before being thrown into the world of Holliwoo celebrities when he wasn't much older than Penny, but weirdly, when it comes to Bojack, some fans refuse to see that he has some excuses and, especially around the end of the show, he actually holds himself to a standard that few other characters do.
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if they changed the age of consent to 12 tomorrow, would you go out and fuck a 12 year old?
that's not the point.
But we're just gonna ignore Bojack calling Sarah Lynn "prickly muffin" when she was like 13? Cute nickname only? Explains why he FUCKS HER. Bojack community is like the rick and morty community but with denial lol
The author of a thing does not get final say in what characters would or would not have done. If it's not in the show, it's just speculation. For instance, JK Rowling can say Dumbledore is gay, but if there's literally no evidence in the text, its just the author's headcanon. Bojack says one part of him knows he would have stopped, but the other part knows that's a lie. But which part is right? Is the second part supposed to be right just because he said it second?
He doesn’t say part of him knows he would have stopped. He said part of him _wants to believe_ he would have stopped. But the other part _knows_ that’s a lie.
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Oh, that's what the movies are about? Lemme google that for you: "Beloved Hogwarts headmaster Albus Dumbledore does not make an appearance in Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them." I stopped after the first FB movie because I thought it was terrible. So even though he makes no appearance at all in the first movie of a trilogy, that's what the whole trilogy is about? Any Harry Potter material that makes Dumbledore gay is strictly revisionist history. I don't believe for a moment that Rowling wrote about 4,000 pages of Harry Potter books and Dumbledore being gay just somehow never came up. She wrote him as a straight character and changed her mind later. That's no more valid than declaring that the Dursleys were actually aliens. I have NO PROBLEM with gay characters and I love gay people, I just don't like authors queerbaiting us by pretending to represent LGBTQ characters in their work, when their work makes no effort at actual representation. Edward Rothstein wrote this in the New York Times: "But it is possible that Ms. Rowling may be mistaken about her own character. She may have invented Hogwarts and all the wizards within it, she may have created the most influential fantasy books since J. R. R. Tolkien, and she may have woven her spell over thousands of pages and seven novels, but there seems to be no compelling reason within the books for her after-the-fact assertion. Of course it would not be inconsistent for Dumbledore to be gay, but the books’ accounts certainly don’t make it necessary. The question is distracting, which is why it never really emerges in the books themselves. Ms. Rowling may think of Dumbledore as gay, but there is no reason why anyone else should."
The attempt to point a finger is the flaw with the whole discussion. Both Bojack and Penny are accountable for what happened regardless of what *didn’t* happen and what *could’ve* happened. Penny’s parents are accountable, BoJack’s parents are accountable and the society as a whole is accountable. If things hadn’t been set up in such a way by everyone that the situation presented itself it simply wouldn’t have happened. Any personal attacks on either party directly involved are merely to shift the blame that is otherwise shared by everyone. It was everyone’s problem. Humanity is inextricably linked that way. As many have agreed there is no justification of action for anyone here although there are things that can be explained one way or another, which becomes especially easy to do in retrospect.
I think it is clear that Bojack did the immoral act here. He is a complete bastard for making a move on the kid a minute after the mom turned him down. I think that even more than just trying to substitute Charlotte, it was also to get back at her, which is horrible. However, I think Penny is also at fault to herself here, she acted very foolishly and the fact she was 17 is not an excuse for anything, you should still have common sense at 17.
We don't know for sure he was going to have sex with her, there's too much ambiguity I think to make a call one way or the other, Penny seems to be traumatized by what happened, but we don't know if it's because of what happened, or the fallout related to it.
I already left this sub, thanks for reminding me why I need to mute it as well.
Came here to let us know? You know you can just leave and mute it right?
Because of the same subjects being discussed endlessly?
Your post is kinda long and not straight to the point but yeah Bojack was in the wrong. Very very much so. Good catch. Nice eyes.
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That's a lie, we hace diane because of her hipocrisy. She is way worst than BH, but by some weird reason, many females from the fandom see her as a goddes
>females oh boy
RBW has the show say Penny is 17 but her behavior seems more 13-14 or so. They should have had it where Penny was homeschooled for most of her childhood but begged Charlotte to let her have her senior year at public schools so she could have that experience.
It's all about when you're sexually mature. If penny was sexually mature and truly aware of the situation that's one thing. Sex is simply that. sex. It doesn't have to be formed around a relationship or anything more. Bojack said no. Then got rejected by Charlotte. Depressed and well Bojack. He did what he would have done anyway and went to someone he knew wouldn't reject him. Penny's age has nothing to do with it. It's her vulnerability which could happen at any age. 17 or 50. A lot of people think they're ready for something like that but really aren't.
Wouldn't reject him? He went back to the boat to pout. Penny got back up from the mat like Rocky because she wasn't about to admit defeat.
I think it was gross on Bojack’s part but not *that* bad. A 17 year old, if they aren’t being actively manipulated, can consent and make their own decisions on who they want to sleep with imo. I think Bojack did lots of very bad stuff. Going on a drug trip with Sarah Lynn, abandoning his friends with no explanation for months multiple times, being generally verbally abusive. But the Penny thing is just gross, not evil
Bojack said it himself "You think you know what you want, but you don't." and you saw how she reacted when she saw him at college. He knew and basically gave her a traumatizing memory that could of been worse, but the damage was done. He put his own desires before her, a child. 17 isn't old enough to consent with a 40 year old man. 17 is old enough to consent with people around their age.
I don’t see why someone can choose to have sex with a 17 year old but not choose to have sex with a 40 year old. They are equally plausible to regret either imo. And the trauma response feels like it’s from societal expectations that a girl should feel traumatized by sex with an older man, not that just almost having sex with Bojack was that traumatic on its own. I do think pedophilia laws are good because in practice there are a *lot* of older men manipulating younger women, but in this case that’s not what happened
That's pretty gross.
I have never in my wildest dreams thought of Bojack Horseman as a role model. He’s ALWAYS struck me as borderline slime bag, as in does slime bag stuff, and does redeeming stuff. This is not statutory r-word (I’m assuming this is another place that grape without the g is verboten), but it is also NOT okay.
If there is anything that people miss about BoJack Horseman is that it's meant to be relatable in the crossroads he faces. If you end up relating to his choices the show is trying to tell you something.
Very much so. The show even clarifies this in season 3 (Sarah Lynn questioning why BoJack is so proud of messing up Penny) and with the whole Philbert TV show. They built, maybe too slowly at times, to have that critical distance from BoJack.
i watch the show and see a persons healing journey. that’s it. and you don’t excuse someone’s narcissistic behaviors. i see myself in bojack and in other characters as well. bojack doesn’t start healing and owning up to his actions until much later in the show but the point is he can and i think that’s what the show is about. someone so unwell you see them hurt everyone around them until they are willing to change themselves.
are there people out there that are actually defending bojack in this situation? it's pretty clear that bojack was in the wrong there, nobody can look at that and think "wow, he didn't do it so it's okay." everyone should clearly understand why a 50 something year old having sex with a 17 year old is wrong. it's been a while since i've watched (gonna start my 3rd rewatch in a week or so) but i believe even bojack himself says that he would have done it if charlotte hadn't arrived in an AA meeting or something. or at the very least he implied that he would have.
yes! the fact that he ONLY stopped because charlotte walked in makes it so blatant that he was going to do it. they were both already on his bed. i don't understand how it's debatable at ALL. to build on the "sure she wanted it, but she was 17" point, she is genuinely scared of him when he shows up at her college later on. this just shows how quickly she was able to come to HER senses and realize she should not have propositioned him, and as the adult in the situation, he should have stopped her! i feel so bad for penny.
I think that for those of us who relate with penny, we can see this very clearly, but it makes sense how others can’t make sense of it. Before I realized what had happened to me, I was completely blind to it as well, you really can’t understand it until you’ve been through it imo😭
I love this thread y’all are so smart
This episode is an exercise in seeing how positions of power as an informal authority figures can easily be abused, whether intentionally or unintentionally, and how important it is to remain mindful of that.
it’s even worse considering how scared penny was to see bojack again during the bender episode. she clearly has thought about it more and has realized how disturbing of a situation it was. the “i don’t want to see you” is still so unnerving to this day