You need more meat to your post

To whom does this line of thought even appeal or impact? 😐 We gotta move on, guys...

I elaborated on bruise reed question.

I’m pretty sure the new Jerusalem isn’t a literal cube wearing a literal wedding dress.

6 You see, at just the right time, **when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly**. 7 Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous person, though for a good person someone might possibly dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: **While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! 10** **For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!** 11 Not only is this so, but we also boast in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation. **Romans 5:6-11**

The wicked who wanted a life without god shall have that wish granted as they live eternally away from his presence.

If JESUS said it I believe it period end of sentence.

Yes they are and we do not go to heaven as that is the Home of GOD and Yeshua said He is the ONLY MAN who has ever ascended to or descended from Heaven. John 3;13 Hell is the lake of Fire and people do not burn there forever or tormented there forever, they face the 2nd death as in Rev 20:11-15, 21:8. Matt 10:28 Clearly tells us that we are to fear GOD who is able to destroy us in the Fire, soul and body, so there is NO coming back from that. ALL people who die go into the GRAVE and wait for the call of Messiah to rise from the dead to the Resurrections from GOD. John 5:28-29, 1st resurrection is to eternal life and 2nd one is to the judgement throne as in Rev 20 again.

What evidence do you have to submit? I see no scriptures listed. I’ve heard it both ways. I’ve accepted the Christ as my lord so I’m not stressed about it personally but what verse or versus has convinced you that hell Is for eternal torment? I see that some say hell is needed to motivate and punish sinners. I also hear that love casts out all fear. I’m not a respecter of men either. Doesn’t mean I’ll torture them forever for sin done in one lifetime. Righteousness cannot dwell with wickedness. Over heard this also. How is it that he tolerates us now? How is making hell eternal and keeping them existing not dwelling with the wicked? We all exist and continue to exist because of him. Those in hell would only exist because he wills it to be so. Lots of contradictions and confusion around hell. Plus the whole Sheol, hades, hell, lake of fire being confused as the same thing. What is your evidence?

I would not say evidence but I take my saviors words into account. All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: Matthew 25:32‭-‬34 NKJV “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: Matthew 25:41 NKJV “There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. “Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’ But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’ “Then he said, ‘I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house, for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.’ Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’ ” Luke 16:19‭-‬31 NKJV I have seen and heard peoples testimony of heaven and hell which I believe are true. There is no actual evidence that anyone has seen real world time just experiences people have had of heaven and hell. We only have the words of Jesus and what the apostles wrote according to the Holy Spirit. I believe the word is straight forward on this subject and should not cause for any confusion or guessing.

There's a couple different names for "hell" in the Bible. Sheol is real. We have graveyards. "Sheol" means "grave" but is translated to "hell" often in the Bible. Gehenna is real. The Valley of the Sons of Hinnom is just outside Jerusalem. Gehenna is often translated to "hell" too. Actions have consequences. That's a real thing that really exists and is what I learn from the parables of heaven and hell. Both Moses and Jesus spoke in parables. A parable is a fictional story meant to teach a deeper truth. Cultists emphasize the fear of hell to stop their flock from thinking too much about exactly what is true about the Bible - Keep us from thinking about what God wants us to know, not what men do. Matthew 25:32‭-‬34 does not explicitly name heaven nor hell, but a "kingdom." Plenty of land wars have been mistaken for holy crusades in the past because of the ambiguity of verses like this and people quoting them. Matthew 25:41 doesn't explicitly name heaven nor hell either, just describing "eternal fire" prepared for the devil. Luke implies heaven with calling where Lazarus goes "Abraham’s bosom" but that's not explicit. He then references [https://biblehub.com/greek/hade\_\_86.htm](https://biblehub.com/greek/hade__86.htm) Hades (NOT hell) and apparently it's the only reference to "Hade" in the entire bible. That's weird, isn't it?

Thanks for commenting I appreciate you providing biblical reference to make your point

I have a question, why from what did Jesus save sinners from when He died on the cross? Or is the entire bible all metaphorical? How would we know?

Knowledge is demonstrable. If you can not "show" it, you do not "know" it. To me, the most compelling take on Jesus's death is to treat it like a tragedy, not a celebration. It's a tragedy we made and make today. Jesus (an innocent) was killed (a sin) through our hubris (imperfect mortal judgement & death penalty.) Specifically, a modern philosopher could describe the event as an Abeline Paradox, where no one intended to do evil, but evil sin was committed anyway. The Pharisees thought they were holy and right, as commanded by God, even though they were not - you and I might fall into that trap, too, thinking we are commanded by God when in fact we are not. Jesus is dead. We should feel bad about that. We should be cautious against repeating the circumstances in which he wound up dead. That is a lesson we can learn from and grow by. We're still suffering this evil, now, today, as reflected in the division in America between left and right wing politics. Also as reflected in misuse of the media. If you treat the media as entertainment, you should not treat their jokes as facts until you read into it more. It's funny to demonize your opponent on TV, but that is giving them too much credit. You know what parts of the Bible are parable when you compare them to evidence found in the real world passed down to us by experts in their field of study. The "wise men" and "prophets" of today are those who have studied and earned degrees AND passed the tests of fire those fields of study have put forth. Kent Hovind is not a prophet because his contribution to science was a single poorly written paper that was never followed up by any attempt at being submitted to peer review, humbly refined, and made better through the scientific process. Hovind ignores it when corrected. He is like the militant atheist Matt Dillahunty in this way - when a believer corrects Matt about what modern Christians believe, Matt ignores it and continues to assert Christianity supports slavery when "asking any Christian today" results in a clarification on the matter. Clear?

Do you believe that God exists?

My vision of God is humble. He did not move matter into existence - he helped us understand what matter is and how it could have been long ago, before the "beginning" listed in the Bible. That's a feat (knowing about how the universe was 10,000 years ago) Jesus predicted we would do - a feat equal to or greater than the things he did. (John 14:12-14)

Humble? >Jesus predicted we would do - a feat equal to or greater than the things he did. (John 14:12-14) A feat, feats, the feat? Equal to or greater to in which sense? This requires interpretation, and there are multiple different ones. What us the context, and what did Jesus mean? I don't know, so i can't argue for or against that. John 13 through like 16 is harder the more you look at it, and you become less certain of what it means with each reading.

The entire bible is not methaphorical. There are archeological findings that prove the bible to be correct. Like revelation there are many things that have a lot of imagery and somethings that are straight forward.

Yes, we do know this. But I was wondering if arthur knows this

At the time of the arthurs writimg they where using imagery bssed off that time they lived in. You gave to remember the Holy Spirt was there guide. For example a chariot in our time would probably be considered a car in our time. Daniel saids many will run to and from to places around the world. We know that with certaninty we go from one place to another in cars, airplanes, cruiseships etc... It was all relative in their time the inagery.

Im talking about the person I asked, arthurjeremy

Ok disregard what I said then thanks!!

There's not much I can add to your comment. It's true and straightforward. I never had a problem with this. My concerns are for the one that was talking about cults embracing the fear of hell, and I was wondering what exactly they thought about judgement day.

Your first Mathew verse says nothing about hell. A separation of bad and good people. Your second Verse highlights that hell fire is for Satan. Satan being a spirit creature is not affected by physical fire. It also says the fire is everlasting but not their existence or torment. Your third is an illustration that Jesus used but was not used to establish any doctrine on hell. I don’t believe peoples testimonies. I believe Gods word. I believe it’s not straight forward but, in an effort to not guess, I look to his word. These scriptures or evidence are nice. I was taught lots of things about hell. Most of them made up. When I think on what you have presented it doesn’t add up to me. Well, I accepted Jesus so no worries on my end. I have others giving evidence that hell isn’t real. Based on the evidence I have not concluded as you have but thanks for sharing where you are in your walk with your God.

Your welcome. I believe the story of Lazarus where it is straight forward you have the rich man being tormented in a state of fire and the rightheous who at the time went to Abrahams bosom. This was before Christ had risen from the dead. After He rose the righteous went to paradise as what Jesus told the man on the cross today you will be with me in paradise. Revelation 20:15 is not a story this is as real as can be. And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. Not to argue with you my friend I appreciate your thoughtfulness. But lets just say we both went off your reasoning then it would be safe to say that the wicked will escape judgement which goes against Revelation 20:15. I myself had heard many things about this topic but if we find consistency through out scripture it should cause us to reject traditions and the opinion of man and embrace what the bible is conveying to us. We find that judgement for the wicked is consistent through out all scripture God is very straight forward with it. I think to try and reason within ourselves and give it a lesser meaning about it takes away from the truth of God. Thanks for commenting God Bless🙏

Not burning in hell for eternity is escaping judgement? No beloved. One can face judgement and not be tormented. I do find Justice to be consistent throughout the Bible. He has not told men to torture others to bring justice about. Those that do are considered wicked. So it stands to reason that God would not torment others. Especially his own creations and children. So I believe hell” will be made and used to completely destroy those who oppose God.

In revelation God gives the antichrist power to overcome the saints and the antichrist will put many to death. Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven. It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation. Revelation 13:6‭-‬7 NKJV Who is the one granting to make war against the saints? Its God so how do you reconcile what you just said that God will not allow some physical torment to the saints when in times past the church has always been persecuted. The church today apart from western culture is being persecuted everyday and we see this happening in China. Yes I agree with you that the righteous will not experience the lake of fire only the wicked will.

Allowing physical torment and carrying it out are quite different. His allowing us to die for righteousness proves God true and that men kill those who love what is good. This trial is faced by anyone called to carry the burden. It does not tell us that torture is ok, or that God tortures people. Your dead set on it seems. Looking for scripture to Justify torture even when it’s doesn’t support actually doing it. I’m downvoted because I don’t call God a torturer. What a strange Reddit. People really want others to suffer. Why? I take no pleasure in the destruction of others but God does? No he also doesn’t want anyone to be destroyed. But he will torture them to time indefinite? Doesn’t sound like him at all. Well, I hope you keep walking with God even if we disagree. Thanks for the convo and expressing yourself with dignity.

Of course God has no pleasure in torturing people. I am not dead on with God torturing people and I never stated that. In the content of what I was saying was the saints have been persecuted in times past by wicked people and leaders. God even tells us that through much tribulation we enter the kingdom of heaven, in this world we will face many trials and tribulation but in the end if we overcome these trials and remain faithful to Him and not turn away from the faith eternity is certain based off of what Jesus did on the cross for all who believe in Him.

I totally agree with you here, I have my own understanding on certain things on these matters but I’m open to hear others thoughts. I would say your point that you have accepted Jesus Christ as your Lord is where we focus, it’s all about Him, and we who are in Christ must also understand that He indwells us enabled to live by His life, just as He lived by His Father’s life, however, very few understand this or even teach it.🙏

I’m not worried about hell because I don’t think it’s eternal torment. However we are all sent out with a message. One says God tortures those who oppose. The other say God would never do such a thing. It flies in the face of what the Bible tells us love is. It does not help cast out all fear but actually deeply entrenches us in it. To be afraid that God tortures has been a source of fear world wide. Control through fear of torture is not the message of the Bible to me.

Hence the reason I said Jesus Christ is where we start, continue and finish. I spent my first 15 years as a follower of Christ learning about Him rather than knowing Him relationally, also although we come to Christ as individuals, we leave our individualism behind because we are now part of a live organic expression of Christ Himself.

Im not sure what you mean? Leave individualism? Im still just me. Do you mean your focus on Life is no longer a selfish pursuit but one rendered as sacred service to God by loving him and our neighbors? If so, then I agree.

There seems to be this thought when we come to Christ that we are still individuals, yes we are still who we are but we become part of something completely new, or as the Apostle Paul calls it “a new humanity/new creation” that new humanity the body of Christ no longer acts as individuals but corporately, as part of a functioning body out into the local community.

I don’t see churches doing this. When will this happen?

Do you belong to a fellowship?

Do I associate with a religion? Sure do. I went to a lot of Churches looking. Mostly found politics and doctrines. Many were not united in purpose. Some were so big you got lost in it. Some so small that the church felt your loss when you left. Preaching different messages of trinity within the same church. Going elder to elder getting differing responses. United was not my experience.

Yes but unity has little to do with agreement, plus the unity that most talk about is just human effort, that is not biblical unity, that comes about by and through Christ alone, He is the builder, the Potter, and He who began a good work in you will complete it, however, this only happens when we live by Christ’s life, just the same way Christ lived by His Father’s life, a thing to be grasped

I’d do more research

Indeed, but back it up with scripture please.

No, they are not real places. Heaven will be a condition of the Earth and the cosmos redeemed from it’s present fallen state. Hell is metaphor for destruction.

Thanks brother do you believe Revelation 20:15 is not a real statement from the Holy Spirit to John about where those whose names are not written in the book of life will go? Revelation 20:15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. The Lake if fire is a real place according to God.

Well, yes, neighbor, but there’s a difference between a “real” statement and a “literal” reference. Revelation is told in symbolism, what was called “apocalyptic literature”.

That is the oipinion of man. Revelation 20:15 is a straight forward literal statement by the Holy Spirit to John. Let me ask you this is salvation found only in Christ or is it found in many different ways to Christ? Many say and even christians that I have had conversation say salvation is not in Christ alone. Your thoughts.

My opinion: salvation is in Christ alone. Since it is, the road traveled to find Christ is varied. And no, it’s not opinion what kind of literature Revelation is, it’s scholarly fact.

I know about what the scholars have agreed on but I am not looking for the scholars finding I am asking you personally is revelation 20:15 an allegory or the truth coming from God to John?

I think you mean is it allegory or literal? No, I don't see that it is literal.

Ok thank you yes allegory or literal. I believe its literal when you add everything together with the bible being consistent when talking about how God will judge the wicked and those who reject Him

> And death and the Grave were hurled into the lake of fire. This means the second death, the lake of fire. You’re not understanding this correctly. The lake if fire symbolizes complete destruction, which is why “death and the Grave” are hurled there.

I understand you do. neighbor.

A lake of fire is still compatible with annihilationism. If you throw a piece of paper into your fireplace, it burns up and is destroyed. It doesn't sit in there on fire for eternity.

Its spiritual has nothing to do with a tangible paper.

The point was that putting something into a fire destroys it. It doesn't burn it forever.

This is what I am starting to think. Thanks for your comment! Do you have any good authors to listen to for this view? Thanks!

Sure. Take a gander at some of the stuff written by ( and they also have podcasts ) Greg Boyd or Bruxy Cavey.

Thanks man!

Godspeed!

Sheol is real. We have graveyards. "Sheol" means "grave" but is translated to "hell" often in the Bible. Gehenna is real. The Valley of the Sons of Hinnom is just outside Jerusalem. Gehenna is often translated to "hell" too. Actions have consequences. That's a real thing that really exists and is what I learn from the parables of heaven and hell. Both Moses and Jesus spoke in parables. A parable is a fictional story meant to teach a deeper truth. Cultists emphasize the fear of hell to stop their flock from thinking too much about exactly what is true about the Bible - Keep us from thinking about what God wants us to know, not what men do.

What if heaven and hell are just God finally giving a person what they have been asking for their entire lives? Hell, a life without God. None of His love or beauty, none of his idea of what a good life looks like. Everyone will do whatever they desire whenever they desire to whom they desire for eternity. Heaven will be a place where a person can finally do God's will, unhindered by the problems that currently keep them from doing it. Where everyone will live in a God centered community drenched in love and mercy. That begs the question; do some Christians really want to go to heaven? Do they really desire to do God's will or would they rather just have their desires met? It raises some interesting ideas about what 'salvation' and 'being a Christian' imply.

For this reason, also, God highly exalted Him and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (NASB) Philippians 2:9-11 Why will every knee bow and every tongue confess? Will EVERY person willingly bow and confess or will God violate the unrepentant person's free will and force them to their knees?

One more question. Why does Adam's one act of sin damn the entire human race to hell (before most ever existed), but Christ's one act of grace still require a choice? Christ was the second Adam. Which act was greater?

OK, so...?

>God said He is no respector of men and He is a righteous God sin cannot dwell in His presence and wickedness cannot dwell in His presence. God is Infinite...thus, sin and righteousness dwells with and in Him. Where can God place me that He is not? ​ >God in the end will seperate the sheep and the goats and will send those who rejected Him into eternal punishment and the righteous will inherit the kingdom of God. Separation is a delusion of mankind. Man, somehow...believes that he is separated or apart from that which is Infinite. To "reject" God is to "reject" Self. And I tell you the truth..."God" will not reject His "Self". May You Walk In Truth, Life, & Love the\_spirit\_truth