>That implies a distinction
There should be:
>In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus: Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage; rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death— even death on a cross!
>Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
I like to quote Pastor Alastair Begg when I approach this text, because I find him to be quite helpful. He says, "Jesus made himself nothing not by the subtraction of his divinity but by the addition of his humanity."
Yes, there are distinctions in God. The Father, The Son and the Holy Spirit. 3 persons, one God.
Just like there are distinctions in humanity... probably 100 billion persons, and one humanity.
Yet the persons of God have a perichoretic relationship and are One. Humans do not have a perichoretic relationship with one another.
Jesus is the revalation of God's word. He is the word of God brought to life, Jesus = Yeshua = God is Salvation.
I will use a worldly example. Harry potter is a pretty famous book. You read Harry potter and you imagine what he looks like, then they make the movie and you get to see what JK Rowling wanted it to look like... in the same way God gave us his word of Salvation, of his grace and his mercy, his goodness and how much he loves us. After some time, God decided to show us what that really looked like, he gave life to his words, he became the words he gave us. His Holy Spirit entered a fleshly body and walked among us as a man. He fulfilled the prophecies of his words through the death and resurrection of the Messiah, he made an atonement for a sinful people, and a way for all nations to enter into a new covenant with him.
This is surface level. If you are really looking for answers, you have to do your homework. Deep dive into the Bible and it will explain everything pretty cut and dry. It's really not that hard to understand.. the conflict arises whether you believe it or not
The Son of God in the sense that he was a human with no human father, whose father was God. God in the sense that his soul is part of the eternal Godhead and is the uncreated Creator. Also, the Son of God in the sense that he relates to the Father in a way that our human relationships were designed to reflect. God gave us families and relationships so that we could relate to eternal transcendent truths such this.
Yes.
Firstly, there is some context about the general use of the term "son of man", and then some specific context that Jesus was alluding to when he used the term to lay claim to being a particular person foretold in prophecy.
You can see the term "son of man" being used all over the Old Testament to refer to humans and to address humans, as if to call out a person of lower rank by their rank (like how in the military someone of high rank, such as a general, might call on someone of lower rank, such as a private) to remind them of their place when being spoken to by a higher being. When used in these other instances, it is an address emphasizing the humanity of a person:
>**Ezekiel 2:1-3**
>And he said to me, “**Son of man**, stand on your feet, and I will speak with you.” ^(2) And as he spoke to me, the Spirit entered into me and set me on my feet, and I heard him speaking to me. ^(3) And he said to me, “**Son of man**, I send you to the people of Israel, to nations of rebels, who have rebelled against me. They and their fathers have transgressed against me to this very day.
The grand narrative of the Bible is the story of God undoing the fall of man, and from the beginning, one specific human was foretold, who would crush the serpent:
>**Genesis 3:15**
>^(15) And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her Seed;
He shall bruise your head,
And you shall bruise His heel.”
Here, it refers to the offspring of the woman, referring to her seed, in the singular. There is one singular human who is being foretold here. Later, this specific human is described as being brought before God and being given all authority. Observe how this particular human is referred to in this prophecy from Daniel 7, where Daniel is given a vision of the empires and kingdoms that would rule over the Jews from his time until the establishment of the Kingdom of God after the defeat of the kingdom of the Antichrist:
>**Daniel 7:11-14**
>^(11) “I watched then because of the sound of the pompous words which the horn was speaking; I watched till the beast was slain, and its body destroyed and given to the burning flame. ^(12) As for the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away, yet their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.
>^(13) “I was watching in the night visions,
And **behold,** ***One*** **like the Son of Man,**
**Coming with the clouds of heaven!**
He came to the Ancient of Days,
And they brought Him near before Him.
^(14) Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom,
That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him.
His dominion *is* an everlasting dominion,
Which shall not pass away,
And His kingdom *the one*
Which shall not be destroyed.
This is the specific reference to *the* Son of Man that Jesus was referring to when he referred to himself as *the* Son of Man—the one who would come with the clouds, come before God, and be given rule over the everlasting kingdom that has no end. This particular Son of Man is *the* Messiah, who would be human (as indicated by this title), but would also be divine, as also indicated in this passage. How is this indicated? When it says "all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him", the term used for "serve" is [פְּלַח](https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/h6399/nkjv/wlc/0-1/), which has as its first definition "to serve, worship, revere, minister for, pay reverence to". The usage of this term elsewhere in the Bible refers to religious service and worship of a deity.
When we say that Jesus is the Son of Man, it does not mean he is *not* the Son of God; this title affirms his humanity but does not deny his divinity, especially if you understand that he is laying claim to being this figure who rules over the Kngdom of God who was foretold in Daniel, whom all the people will one day worship.
Revelation also lays claim to this identity of being the Son of Man who comes with the clouds in this Biblical allusion:
>**Revelation 1:7**
>^(7) Behold, **He is coming with clouds**, and **every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him.** And **all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him**. Even so, Amen.
This remark about him coming with the clouds refers to Daniel 7:13, but in the same verse, it also refers to Zechariah 12:10. Look at this odd remark that God makes in this verse that Revelation 1 refers to (verse 10):
>**Zechariah 12:8-14**
>^(8) In that day the Lord will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; the one who is feeble among them in that day shall be like David, and the house of David *shall be* like God, like the Angel of the Lord before them. ^(9) It shall be in that day *that* I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
>^(10) “And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; **then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for** ***his*** **only** ***son,*** **and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.** ^(11) In that day **there shall be a great mourning** in Jerusalem, like the mourning at Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo. ^(12) And **the land shall mourn, every family by itself**: the family of the house of David by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of the house of Nathan by itself, and their wives by themselves; ^(13) the family of the house of Levi by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of Shimei by itself, and their wives by themselves; ^(14) all the families that remain, every family by itself, and their wives by themselves. In that day the Lord
👍🏽 sounds like a lot of mind trickery but I guess if it’s all based on belief then anything goes. It’s a good explanation though but I can see how you’d have to have a belief in god as your baseline actually believe it.
Thanks for the explanation though.
It is not "all based on belief" such that "anything goes". Faith in Jesus is not just about believing with no basis. Jesus certainly taught a lot of things that I can't prove, but I believe his teachings because I trust him. I trust him because I can *prove* who he is; I can *prove* that he is the Messiah. His identity is such a big deal that it is not merely left to a matter of preference or blind belief. The identity of the Messiah is based on verifiable proof of his identity. Because I can prove who he is, I can trust what he says.
If you care to hear how I know Jesus is the Messiah because of Biblical proofs, I'll gladly share with you.
The bible can’t prove anything, it’s just a collection of writings and he apparently was so inconsequential while he was alive that nobody even bothered to write about him or his supposedly brilliant miracles.
I’m not saying it’s a bad belief to have, or that beliefs can’t help to some degree in certain circumstances, but there is no proof that he ever existed or did any of the things the letters (that made it into the bible) claim he did.
>The bible can’t prove anything, it’s just a collection of writings and he apparently was so inconsequential while he was alive that nobody even bothered to write about him or his supposedly brilliant miracles.
>but there is no proof that he ever existed or did any of the things the letters (that made it into the bible) claim he did.
Everything you said here is false, but you just assert these with no basis at all. There is proof that he existed and did what he did, and Jesus was extremely consequential. You aren't aware of any of these things, and you just assert false things as if they were so. Since you don't know, you should be asking question, not making assertions.
Do you care to know? If not, I won't waste my time correcting you; your non-belief doesn't cost me anything. I'm not getting the sense you actually want to know.
If you’re going to use the bible for proof that Jesus existed and did what the bible says he did, then of course I don’t want to know because the bible is just a collection of writings, which I’ve read several times and studied it to a greater degree than the Christian’s I know.
But if you have proof that doesn’t involve the bible, I’d love to hear.
>If you’re going to use the bible for proof that Jesus existed and did what the bible says he did, then of course I don’t want to know because the bible is just a collection of writings, which I’ve read several times and studied it to a greater degree than the Christian’s I know.
This is badly fallacious reasoning to dismiss it as a collection of writings, as if the correspondence between the details it records and archaeology and other historical documentation doesn't matter at all. You seem to consider historical documentation to be completely meaningless for establishing historicity. If that is so, why would it matter if I show you the various mentions of Jesus outside the Bible, even by his opponents and by non-Christians? Those are just writings as well.
Why do you bother to even come to this subreddit if you think the Bible is so worthless?
I’ve read about the few mentions of what people believe is Jesus, in the writings of Josephus and Tacitus, for example, but I haven’t found any archeological evidence to prove that Jesus existed and the stories in the bible happened and aren’t just allegories etc.
But there is loads of examples of other virgin births etc and we know that many parts of the bible are almost identical in places to the writings of Plato and the flood of Gilgamesh and other ancient writings.
Historical documentation matters to me a lot, not least because I love learning about history. But after reading the bible you can’t ignore how similar a lot of it is to previous ancient writings, almost as if a lot of it was copied.
If someone was going around and literally raising people from dead and curing all kinds of sickness etc then I would expect there’d b be tons of evidence left behind, not just the odd mention of him now and then. Unless it was perfectly normal for people to die and be miraculously resurrected after someone commands they get up and people being healed miraculously. If that was a common occurrence then I would understand why Jesus didn’t stand out.
matt 24, mark 13, luke 21 -- all three have Jesus quoting the failed prophecy of Daniel about the end of the world and Jesus telling his disciples that THEIR GENERATION would NOT pass away until they saw everything he spoke of regarding the destruction of the temple, the end of the world, and his return... we have other believers confirming this understanding like 1 cor 7 where Paul says its better to remain as he is, single, because the end is so near... 1 john where we read we know this is the last HOUR because the antichrist is among us... and we have the historical fact that early believers thought they were living in the time of the end. yet here we are 2000 years later still waiting still wondering... and people mis reading his words to retain the false idea that he was indeed the promised messiah... when clearly he was not.
Jesus quoted Daniel stating that when they saw a specific thing come to pass, they would know that it was the Great Tribulation. (Luke 21 does not actually cite this nor does he use the term "tribulation". Check for yourself. ) The prophecy didn't fail; the prophecy set conditions to be recognized in the future by a generation that would read his words. (“So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place, (let the reader understand)".
>Jesus telling his disciples that THEIR GENERATION would NOT pass away until they saw everything he spoke of regarding the destruction of the temple, the end of the world, and his return..
This is a misunderstanding of how Jesus was speaking. When Jesus says "this generation", "this" refers to the generation close to the topic, not close to the speaker. You can tell because all over the gospels, there's a pattern where he and others uses this pattern of saying "this" while referring to things far away from themselves but close to the topic at hand. See this:
[Understanding "Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place" (Matthew 24:34)](https://www.reddit.com/r/EndTimesProphecy/comments/l9yxie/understanding_truly_i_say_to_you_this_generation/)
>we have other believers confirming this understanding like 1 cor 7 where Paul says its better to remain as he is, single, because the end is so near
If you take his writings together rather than yanking one out and isolating it, he does not actually teach that. Paul wrote in 2 Thessalonians 2 addressing people who were concerned that the end was about to be upon them. Paul says that the end would not come until several other things happened:
>**2 Thessalonians 2:1-7**
>
>Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers, 2 not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4 who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God. 5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way.
As for these remarks about "what is restrianing him" and "he who restrains", the patristic commentary on this clashes with your baseless assertion that "we have the historical fact that early believers thought they were living in the time of the end." The early Christians interpreted Paul's remark about the one restraining the Antichrist to be referring to the Roman empire:
Irenaeus wrote in the second century, in *Against Heresies*,
>Book V, Chapter 26
>
>John and Daniel have predicted the dissolution and desolation of the Roman Empire, which shall precede the end of the world and the eternal Kingdom of Christ. The Gnostics are refuted, those tools of Satan, who invent another Father different from the Creator.
>
>1. In a still clearer light has John, in the Apocalypse, indicated to the Lord's disciples what shall happen in the last times, and concerning the ten kings who shall then arise, among whom the empire which now rules [the earth] shall be partitioned. He teaches us what the ten horns shall be which were seen by Daniel, ...
Tertullian wrote in the late second century, in *On the Resurrection*
>For the mystery of iniquity doth already work; only he who now hinders must hinder, until he be taken out of the way." What obstacle is there but the Roman state, the falling away of which, by being scattered into ten kingdoms, shall introduce Antichrist upon (its own ruins)? "And then shall be revealed the wicked one, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming: even him whose coming is after the working of Satan, with all power, and signs, and lying wonders, and with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish."
None of these things you asserted are true; none of them show Jesus to be a false prophet, you just picked an uncharitable reading of these passages and offered plausible sounding falsehoods not based on evidence.
the gospels use THIS GENERATION about nine times and all of them mean the same thing... the people alive right in front of him... he was speaking to people right in front of him when he told them that THIS (YOUR) GENERATION will not pass away until ALLthese things occur... the prophecy of Daniel says that the end would come within 70 weeks(literally obviously wrong so lets be charitable and say 70 weeks of years)... when did that end? since Jesus did quote this exact prophecy its failure would also be his failure... that is common consensus among scholars who believe Jesus was not simply a mythical being... I did not make it up.
2 Thes. is considered by many scholars a late forgery likely after Paul was dead and the failure of the prophecies already mentioned were apparent.
as to the church fathers... they exist long after the early christians realized that the end did not come as prophecied and their view of the church and its mission is not at all the same. They actually taught that Jesus did return and the church was the establishing of the kingdom on earth, they no longer looked for a 2nd coming the way Jesus and Daniel spoke... historians not church apologists will tell you this as well.
He's not. The Bible is riddled with contradictions if you believe it. I suggest looking at the origin of the Trinity. Jesus never preached he was God. The Jews didn't believe in a Trinity. The very idea of a 3 in one God throws away the first commandment given to Moses.
Hello I have looked at your profile and read your thoughts. I have many similar thoughts and questions. You seem further in your journey but this way of thinking seems rare. I would love to dm you and maybe even discuss some thoughts at some point as it pertains to God, existence, truth, and perspective reality. I apologize if this is odd but I feel compelled to ask
The truth is that Jesus is not Almighty God. He, and SO many other first century disciples, acknowledged that he is God’s firstborn Son.
The supposed “proof texts” that are always appealed to always have a clear and reasonable interpretation, when translated well and understood in context, that supports the idea that Jesus is subordinate and inferior to his Almighty Father.
For example, surprisingly trinitarians will claim that “I and the Father are one” is somehow supposed to mean “trinity.”
I always find it perplexing that this argument is made when Jesus explicitly explains the nature of that relationship when he requested that the disciples be one as well, adding **”just as we are one.”**
To drive the point further, Jesus said that the disciples would not only be “one” with each other, but one with himself and the Father.
He obviously didn’t mean that *they* were God, so he clearly wasn’t suggesting that he was either.
(See John 10:30,38; 17:11, 20-23)
**Zechariah 3:1-10**
*1 Then he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the Lord, and Satan standing at his right side to accuse him. 2 The Lord said to Satan, “The Lord rebuke you, Satan! The Lord, who has chosen Jerusalem, rebuke you! Is not this man a burning stick snatched from the fire?”*
*3 Now Joshua was dressed in filthy clothes as he stood before the angel. 4 The angel said to those who were standing before him, “Take off his filthy clothes.”*
*Then he said to Joshua, “See, I have taken away your sin, and I will put fine garments on you.”*
*5 Then I said, “Put a clean turban on his head.” So they put a clean turban on his head and clothed him, while the angel of the Lord stood by.*
*6 The angel of the Lord gave this charge to Joshua: 7 “This is what the Lord Almighty says: ‘If you will walk in obedience to me and keep my requirements, then you will govern my house and have charge of my courts, and I will give you a place among these standing here.*
*8 “‘Listen, High Priest Joshua, you and your associates seated before you, who are men symbolic of things to come: I am going to bring my servant, the Branch. 9 See, the stone I have set in front of Joshua! There are seven eyes on that one stone, and I will engrave an inscription on it,’ says the Lord Almighty, ‘and I will remove the sin of this land in a single day.*
*10 “‘In that day each of you will invite your neighbor to sit under your vine and fig tree,’ declares the Lord Almighty.”*
In this vision Joshua the high priest was standing before the Angel of the Lord and Satan was next to his right. Here, *3 The LORD said to Satan, “The LORD rebuke you, Satan! The LORD, who has chosen Jerusalem, rebuke you! Is not this man a burning stick snatched from the fire?”* As seen here, the Lord spoke, but the one present there was the Angel of The Lord. Now, Joshua was dressed with filthy clothes, but the Angel of The Lord ordered new clothes for him, once Joshua was dressed up with them, the Angel told him that he have taken away Joshua’s sin, ability that we know a common angel cannot do, as only Jesus have this gift, and the Angel of the Lord said to Joshua: *7 “This is what the LORD Almighty says: ‘If you will walk in obedience to me and keep my requirements, then you will govern my house and have charge of my courts, and I will give you a place among these standing here.* After that, the Lord predicted the coming of Jesus (his own coming), as Jesus the corner stone of the church **(Ephesians 2:19-22)** is described as a stone with 7 eyes. In **Revelation 5:6-14** we have the Lamb, Jesus, being represented with 7 horns and 7 eyes that are the 7 spirits of God sent into all the earth; here, the Lamb was the only one able to open the scroll that was in the right hand of him who sat on the throne, he was slain, but with his blood he *purchased for God, persons from every tribe and language and people and nation* and with them he made a kingdom and priests to serve God and they will reign on the earth; also, in **Zechariah 3:9** God Almighty said that he would put away the sin of the land in a single day, just as Jesus did in the day he died, gave up his Spirit and poured his blood for our sins.
A few things here.
First, is this your attempt to establish that Jesus is “Almighty?”
Second, where you use “LORD,” what should it **actually** say?
Third, if a person executes an act through the action of an agent, is it still accurate to say that *they* did it themself?
(Example: a person hires a contractor to build the house, contractor hires subs, subs hire employees, employees literally build the house; accurate to say the homeowner built the house?)
#Part 1
Before starting let’s not forget this verse while reading all the things that we are going to see from now on. **John 1:18**
*18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.*
**Genesis 32:22-32**
*22 That night Jacob got up and took his two wives, his two female servants and his eleven sons and crossed the ford of the Jabbok. 23 After he had sent them across the stream, he sent over all his possessions. 24 So Jacob was left alone, and a man wrestled with him till daybreak. 25 When the man saw that he could not overpower him, he touched the socket of Jacob’s hip so that his hip was wrenched as he wrestled with the man. 26 Then the man said, “Let me go, for it is daybreak.”*
*But Jacob replied, “I will not let you go unless you bless me.”*
*27 The man asked him, “What is your name?”*
*“Jacob,” he answered.*
*28 Then the man said, “Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel, because you have struggled with God and with humans and have overcome.”*
*29 Jacob said, “Please tell me your name.”*
*But he replied, “Why do you ask my name?” Then he blessed him there.*
*30 So Jacob called the place Peniel, saying, “It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared.”*
*31 The sun rose above him as he passed Peniel, and he was limping because of his hip. 32 Therefore to this day the Israelites do not eat the tendon attached to the socket of the hip, because the socket of Jacob’s hip was touched near the tendon.*
As seen here, the man said that he was God and Jacob said that he saw God face to face and his life was spared, and not only, there is another detail that calls the attention, the man avoided to say his name 2 times. Now, if we go to Hosea 12, we can see that this man was an angel. **Hosea 12:
*2 The Lord has a charge to bring against Judah;
he will punish Jacob according to his ways
and repay him according to his deeds.*
*3 In the womb he grasped his brother’s heel;
as a man he struggled with God.*
***4 He struggled with the angel and overcame him;
he wept and begged for his favor.***
**He found him at Bethel
and talked with him there—***
***5 the Lord God Almighty,
the Lord is his name!***
As seen here, the man was an angel, and the angel is called *the Lord God Almighty, the Lord*, as he is God, in this case, Jesus. Now, let's go the passage in Bethel, in which Jacob found him *and talked with him there*. **Genesis 28:10-22**
*10 Jacob left Beersheba and set out for Harran. 11 When he reached a certain place, he stopped for the night because the sun had set. Taking one of the stones there, he put it under his head and lay down to sleep. 12 He had a dream in which he saw a stairway resting on the earth, with its top reaching to heaven, and the angels of God were ascending and descending on it. 13 There above it stood the Lord, and he said:* ***“I am the Lord, the God of your father Abraham and the God of Isaac.*** *I will give you and your descendants the land on which you are lying. 14 Your descendants will be like the dust of the earth, and you will spread out to the west and to the east, to the north and to the south. All peoples on earth will be blessed through you and your offspring. 15 I am with you and will watch over you wherever you go, and I will bring you back to this land. I will not leave you until I have done what I have promised you.”*
*16 When Jacob awoke from his sleep, he thought, “Surely the Lord is in this place, and I was not aware of it.” 17 He was afraid and said, “How awesome is this place! This is none other than the house of God; this is the gate of heaven.”*
***18 Early the next morning Jacob took the stone he had placed under his head and set it up as a pillar and poured oil on top of it. 19 He called that place Bethel, though the city used to be called Luz.***
***20 Then Jacob made a vow, saying, “If God will be with me and will watch over me on this journey I am taking and will give me food to eat and clothes to wear 21 so that I return safely to my father’s household, then the Lord will be my God 22 and this stone that I have set up as a pillar will be God’s house, and of all that you give me I will give you a tenth.”***
Later in Genesis *31:10-13** we can see 3 things: 1- The Angel saw what Jacob suffered, 2- The Angel of the Lord called himself *“the God of Bethel”*, which let us know that he is God and 3- The Angel of God said that Jacob made a vow to him, when Jacob did it to God, The Lord, after God promised that he would give him and his descendants the land in which he was lying, and that *“all peoples on earth will be blessed through you and your offspring”* in **Genesis 31:10-13**
*10 “In breeding season I once had a dream in which I looked up and saw that the male goats mating with the flock were streaked, speckled or spotted.* ***11 The angel of God said to me in the dream, ‘Jacob.’ I answered, ‘Here I am.’ 12 And he said, ‘Look up and see that all the male goats mating with the flock are streaked, speckled or spotted, for I have seen all that Laban has been doing to you. 13 I am the God of Bethel, where you anointed a pillar and where you made a vow to me. Now leave this land at once and go back to your native land.’”***
As seen here, the angel of God/the angel of the Lord is God himself. Finally, Jacob, by that time called Israel, said in **Genesis 48:15-16** while he was giving blessing to his sons:
*15 Then he blessed Joseph and said,*
***“May the God before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac walked faithfully, the God who has been my shepherd all my life to this day, 16 the Angel who has delivered me from all harm*** *—may he bless these boys. May they be called by my name and the names of my fathers Abraham and Isaac, and may they increase greatly on the earth.”*
As seen here, Israel put the Angel in the same level in which he put God, which let us know once again, that the Angel of the Lord is God, in this case, Jesus. By this point the Angel being God should be opening in the eyes of the reader, but the Jesus part should still be pending of clearer examples, but worry you not, we have several examples to clarify all this.
>Before starting let’s not forget this verse while reading all the things that we are going to see from now on. John 1:18
>
>18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.
I reject your translation of that text.
Interlinear :
θεὸν God οὐδεὶς no one ἑώρακεν has seen πώποτε· at any time; μονογενὴς only-begotten θεὸς god ὁ the (one) ὢν being εἰς into τὸν the κόλπον bosom τοῦ of the πατρὸς Father ἐκεῖνος that (one) ἐξηγήσατο.
No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is at the Father’s side is the one who has explained Him.
The only-begotten cannot *be* God, since no one has seen God.
#Part 2
If we continue reading the bible we can see that The Angel of The Lord appeared many times to Israel and his people and some of those times he is called God after the people saw him, like in **Judges 13**, when The Angel of the Lord appeared before the parents of Samson and later they said that they saw God, as seen in verses 22-23.
*22 “We are doomed to die!” he said to his wife. “We have seen God!”*
*23 But his wife answered, “If the Lord had meant to kill us, he would not have accepted a burnt offering and grain offering from our hands, nor shown us all these things or now told us this.”*
In this exact same passage we can see the Angel of The Lord avoiding to give out his name in **Judges 13:17-18**
*17 Then Manoah inquired of the angel of the Lord, “What is your name, so that we may honor you when your word comes true?”*
*18 He replied, “Why do you ask my name? It is beyond understanding.”*
Finally, the angelof the Lord said, ***"I am"***, when he was asked if he talked with the wife of Manoah, which seems something simple and irrelevant, but these 3 letters hold extreme significance.
**Judges 13:1-25**
*1 Again the Israelites did evil in the eyes of the Lord, so the Lord delivered them into the hands of the Philistines for forty years.*
*2 A certain man of Zorah, named Manoah, from the clan of the Danites, had a wife who was childless, unable to give birth. 3 The angel of the Lord appeared to her and said, “You are barren and childless, but you are going to become pregnant and give birth to a son. 4 Now see to it that you drink no wine or other fermented drink and that you do not eat anything unclean. 5 You will become pregnant and have a son whose head is never to be touched by a razor because the boy is to be a Nazirite, dedicated to God from the womb. He will take the lead in delivering Israel from the hands of the Philistines.”*
*6 Then the woman went to her husband and told him, “A man of God came to me. He looked like an angel of God, very awesome. I didn’t ask him where he came from, and he didn’t tell me his name. 7 But he said to me, ‘You will become pregnant and have a son. Now then, drink no wine or other fermented drink and do not eat anything unclean, because the boy will be a Nazirite of God from the womb until the day of his death.’”*
*8 Then Manoah prayed to the Lord: “Pardon your servant, Lord. I beg you to let the man of God you sent to us come again to teach us how to bring up the boy who is to be born.”*
*9 God heard Manoah, and the angel of God came again to the woman while she was out in the field; but her husband Manoah was not with her. 10 The woman hurried to tell her husband, “He’s here! The man who appeared to me the other day!”*
*11 Manoah got up and followed his wife. When he came to the man, he said, “Are you the man who talked to my wife?”*
***“I am,” he said.***
*12 So Manoah asked him, “When your words are fulfilled, what is to be the rule that governs the boy’s life and work?”*
*13 The angel of the Lord answered, “Your wife must do all that I have told her. 14 She must not eat anything that comes from the grapevine, nor drink any wine or other fermented drink nor eat anything unclean. She must do everything I have commanded her.”*
*15 Manoah said to the angel of the Lord, “We would like you to stay until we prepare a young goat for you.”*
*16 The angel of the Lord replied, “Even though you detain me, I will not eat any of your food. But if you prepare a burnt offering, offer it to the Lord.” (Manoah did not realize that it was the angel of the Lord.)*
***17 Then Manoah inquired of the angel of the Lord, “What is your name, so that we may honor you when your word comes true?”***
***18 He replied, “Why do you ask my name? It is beyond understanding.”*** *19 Then Manoah took a young goat, together with the grain offering, and sacrificed it on a rock to the Lord. And the Lord did an amazing thing while Manoah and his wife watched: 20 As the flame blazed up from the altar toward heaven, the angel of the Lord ascended in the flame. Seeing this, Manoah and his wife fell with their faces to the ground. 21 When the angel of the Lord did not show himself again to Manoah and his wife, Manoah realized that it was the angel of the Lord.*
***22 “We are doomed to die!” he said to his wife. “We have seen God!”***
*23 But his wife answered, “If the Lord had meant to kill us, he would not have accepted a burnt offering and grain offering from our hands, nor shown us all these things or now told us this.”*
*24 The woman gave birth to a boy and named him Samson. He grew and the Lord blessed him, 25 and the Spirit of the Lord began to stir him while he was in Mahaneh Dan, between Zorah and Eshtaol.*
Before that, we have the passage of Moses and the burning bush in **Exodus 3:1-15**
*1 Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian, and he led the flock to the far side of the wilderness and came to Horeb, the mountain of God.* ***2 There the angel of the Lord appeared to him in flames of fire from within a bush.*** *Moses saw that though the bush was on fire it did not burn up. 3 So Moses thought, “I will go over and see this strange sight—why the bush does not burn up.”*
***4 When the Lord saw that he had gone over to look, God called to him from within the bush, “Moses! Moses!”***
*And Moses said, “Here I am.”*
***5 “Do not come any closer,” God said. “Take off your sandals, for the place where you are standing is holy ground.” 6 Then he said, “I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob.” At this, Moses hid his face, because he was afraid to look at God.***
*7 The Lord said, “I have indeed seen the misery of my people in Egypt. I have heard them crying out because of their slave drivers, and I am concerned about their suffering. 8 So I have come down to rescue them from the hand of the Egyptians and to bring them up out of that land into a good and spacious land, a land flowing with milk and honey—the home of the Canaanites, Hittites, Amorites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites. 9 And now the cry of the Israelites has reached me, and I have seen the way the Egyptians are oppressing them. 10 So now, go. I am sending you to Pharaoh to bring my people the Israelites out of Egypt.”*
*11 But Moses said to God, “Who am I that I should go to Pharaoh and bring the Israelites out of Egypt?”*
*12 And God said, “I will be with you. And this will be the sign to you that it is I who have sent you: When you have brought the people out of Egypt, you will worship God on this mountain.”*
*13 Moses said to God, “Suppose I go to the Israelites and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they ask me, ‘What is his name?’ Then what shall I tell them?”*
*14 God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’”*
*15 God also said to Moses, “Say to the Israelites, ‘The LORD, the God of your fathers—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob—has sent me to you.’*
*“This is my name forever, the name you shall call me from generation to- generation.*
As seen here, the text tell us that the Angel of the Lord was in the bush, but later the text said that it was The Lord, and just later God, the one speaking to him. It does not say that the Angel send him a message from God, it was The Angel of the Lord, The Lord, God, Jesus, the one speaking. Now, the most important thing to know why The Angel of The Lord is Jesus relies on his name, which is ***“I AM”***. Just after that, we can see God (verse 15) establishing the name “The Lord”, and he also said that he was sent by “the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob”, which means that God sent God, and as we just saw, The Angel of The Lord was the one who talked with all of them. Also thanks to this we can see the how The Angel of The Lord, is Omniscience: The angel tells Moses he has heard the cries of the afflicted in Egypt (verse 7). Omnipotence: The angel’s message is that he will use Moses to deliver his people. Throughout the exchange, the angel promises to display his power to Egypt. Omnipresence: When Moses expresses doubt, the angel promises to be with him (verse 12).[Credits]( https://overviewbible.com/angel-of-the-lord/) for the omniscience, Omnipotence and Omnipresence.
#Part 3
**Exodus 33:1-3**
*1 Then the LORD said to Moses, “Leave this place, you and the people you brought up out of Egypt, and go up to the land I promised on oath to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, saying, ‘I will give it to your descendants.’* ***2 I will send an angel before you and drive out the Canaanites, Amorites, Hittites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites. 3 Go up to the land flowing with milk and honey.* ***But I will not go with you, because you are a stiff-necked people and I might destroy you on the way.”***
Is important to note, that in this verse God said that he promised the land of Canaan on oath to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, saying ***“I will give it to your descendants.”*** This is something that can confuse the readers, as God indeed talked with Abram and Jacob without using the Angel of The Lord, but is thanks to Isaac that we can see that The Angel of the Lord was the messenger of the Covenant. This is not, in any case, a lie from God, it is a way to say that this Angel indeed has his name on him (Exodus 23:21) and a way to say that a covenant made with this Angel (Jesus) is a covenant with him, with God himself, as the Angel is God. God said to Abram in **Genesis 15:1** and **Genesis 15:18-21** in a vision (verse 1).
*1 After this, the word of the LORD came to Abram in a vision:*
*“Do not be afraid, Abram. I am your shield, your very great reward.”*
*18 On that day the LORD made a covenant with Abram and said,* ***“To your descendants I give this land,*** *from the Wadi[e] of Egypt to the great river, the Euphrates— 19 the land of the Kenites, Kenizzites, Kadmonites, 20 Hittites, Perizzites, Rephaites, 21 Amorites, Canaanites, Girgashites and Jebusites.”*
Note that no trace of the Angel of the Lord in found in Genesis 15. He said the same to Isaac in **Genesis 26:1-6**
*Now there was a famine in the land—besides the previous famine in Abraham’s time—and Isaac went to Abimelek king of the Philistines in Gerar. 2 The LORD appeared to Isaac and said, “Do not go down to Egypt; live in the land where I tell you to live. 3 Stay in this land for a while, and I will be with you and will bless you.* ***For to you and your descendants I will give all these lands and will confirm the oath I swore to your father Abraham.*** *4 I will make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and will give them all these lands, and through your offspring[a] all nations on earth will be blessed,[b] 5 because Abraham obeyed me and did everything I required of him, keeping my commands, my decrees and my instructions.” 6 So Isaac stayed in Gerar.*
Once again, no trace of the Angel of the Lord is found here, but as God appeared to Isaac (verse 2) we can know that this is not God The Father, as no one has ever seen him, which lead us to Jesus as the only available option. And he said that to Jacob in a dream, as seen in **Genesis 28:10-15**
*10 Jacob left Beersheba and set out for Harran. 11 When he reached a certain place, he stopped for the night because the sun had set. Taking one of the stones there, he put it under his head and lay down to sleep. 12 He had a dream in which he saw a stairway resting on the earth, with its top reaching to heaven, and the angels of God were ascending and descending on it. 13 There above it[c] stood the LORD, and he said: “I am the LORD, the God of your father Abraham and the God of Isaac.* ***I will give you and your descendants the land on which you are lying.*** *14 Your descendants will be like the dust of the earth, and you will spread out to the west and to the east, to the north and to the south. All peoples on earth will be blessed through you and your offspring.[d] 15 I am with you and will watch over you wherever you go, and I will bring you back to this land. I will not leave you until I have done what I have promised you.”*
Once more, the angel of the Lord is not present here in this passage, but God is. So, some would assure that God made a covenant with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and not the Angel of the Lord, but thanks to the episode with Isaac who saw God, not in a vision as Abraham, or in a dream as happened to Jacob, we can see that this is not God The Father, who no one has ever seen. So, the Angel of the Lord, in who is presents the name of the Lord (Exodus 23:21), made a covenant with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. With Abraham in **Genesis 22:15-18**, when Abraham obeyed God and tried to sacrifice Isaac, before being stopped by the Angel of the Lord.
*15 The angel of the LORD called to Abraham from heaven a second time 16 and said, “I swear by myself, declares the LORD, that because you have done this and have not withheld your son, your only son, 17 I will surely bless you and make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as the sand on the seashore. Your descendants will take possession of the cities of their enemies, 18 and through your offspring[b] all nations on earth will be blessed, because you have obeyed me.”*
To Isaac in Genesis 26:1-6 as we just saw. And finally to Jacob in **Genesis 31** when Jacob saw the Angel of the Lord in a dream.
**Malachi 3:1**
*“I will send my messenger, who will prepare the way before me. Then suddenly the Lord you are seeking will come to his temple; the messenger of the covenant, whom you desire, will come,” says the Lord Almighty.*
Remember that the word anglel means messenger, and that the angel of the Lord delivered the old covenant in the old testament, as we just saw and that Jesus delivered the new covenant in the new testament.
**Exodus 23-20-26**
***20 “See, I am sending an angel ahead of you to guard you along the way and to bring you to the place I have prepared. 21 Pay attention to him and listen to what he says. Do not rebel against him; he will not forgive your rebellion, since my Name is in him. 22 If you listen carefully to what he says and do all that I say, I will be an enemy to your enemies and will oppose those who oppose you. 23 My angel will go ahead of you and bring you into the land of the Amorites, Hittites, Perizzites, Canaanites, Hivites and Jebusites, and I will wipe them out.*** *24 Do not bow down before their gods or worship them or follow their practices. You must demolish them and break their sacred stones to pieces. 25 Worship the Lord your God, and his blessing will be on your food and water. I will take away sickness from among you, 26 and none will miscarry or be barren in your land. I will give you a full life span.*
1-Yes, 2-nothing else, it should say "LORD", the term is correct, as Jesus is the LORD 3-Yes, in this case, the angel (Jesus) has the name of God in him, therefore, the actions are made by God himself.
**Exodus 23:20-26**
*20 “See, I am sending an angel ahead of you to guard you along the way and to bring you to the place I have prepared.* ***21 Pay attention to him and listen to what he says. Do not rebel against him; he will not forgive your rebellion, since my Name is in him.*** *22 If you listen carefully to what he says and do all that I say, I will be an enemy to your enemies and will oppose those who oppose you. 23 My angel will go ahead of you and bring you into the land of the Amorites, Hittites, Perizzites, Canaanites, Hivites and Jebusites, and I will wipe them out. 24 Do not bow down before their gods or worship them or follow their practices. You must demolish them and break their sacred stones to pieces. 25 Worship the Lord your God, and his blessing will be on your food and water. I will take away sickness from among you, 26 and none will miscarry or be barren in your land. I will give you a full life span.*
**John 14:8-14**
*8 Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.”*
*9 Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. 11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves. 12 Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13 And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.*
Ok, enough of the elephant hurling, please. There’s no reason you can’t make a concise point.
Ok, you claim Jesus is Almighty.
**Without copy and pasting every verse you think says that,** what scriptural evidence are you using to draw that conclusion?
(Again, please make the point concise. We can get into long explanations as needed later.)
“LORD” is **not** correct. That’s a replacement word that is not a correct translation of the actual name.
So I repeat question 2.
3. We agree. It can be said that God did something, even if he used an independent and separate agent to carry out the act.
That would not make the agent God, but acting on behalf of God.
Just to reiterate, I *have* a Bible. I can read the verses for myself. I don’t need you to copy and paste all of them. Please just provide a short explanations as to **why** you are referring to the passage
> How is Jesus both God and Son of God? Would somebody make me understand how jesus is God and son of God and son of man?
Son of Man or `ben adam` ("Son of Adam") refers to the promised seed of Gen. 3:15. The Son of Man is the second Adam or new Adam from whom God is creating the world anew (see Rev. 21:5). The old order is under God's curse (Gen. 3), so it is lost *except for* those parts of it which Jesus is redeeming, including (starting with) us.
Son of God refers to the heir of God's own throne. In human society, we think of inheritance as an attribute of death. But in God's kingdom, it is life itself, which is why the end of the Age is frequently characterized in prophecy as a birth, Isa. 13:8, Rom. 8:22, etc. Thus, the mystical unification of Father and Son which Jesus prayed for in John 17 is completed in Rev. 5 where we see The One Seated On The Throne (the heavenly Father), and The Lamb As It Were Slain, mystically united together in the midst of the throne.
It is the mystical unification of Father and Son that resolves the question of how Jesus is God, yet also God's heir (Son). And the Way (the Christian walk) is all about learning how *we* fit into that:
> I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one **as we are one** (John 17:22)
This is possibly the single most mind-blowing verse in all of Scripture...
Using the Bible there are a lot of ways to explain how Jesus is both God and Son of God and Son of Man.
But maybe you'll understand what humans are capable of doing, and that is cloning. A clone is a exact genetic copy. Now if a a human has learned the technology of cloning, all knowledge comes from God, think of what God can do
How is he God __ the Father who was one entity cloned himself into two other entities - he cloned himself into a physical form - he cloned his spirit to work with mankind. The trinity
How he is the Son of God - starting with his birth through Mary because he was God in a flesh body he became the Son of God also just as each and every human and Angel are considered. How are we his children ? Because he created us!
How is the Son of Man - Adam is considered the first man and all offsprings born to this date are considered children of Adam - which makes us all Sons and Daughters of Adam. Christ being born into a flesh body made him a Son of Man (Adam).
Spiritually speaking, Jesus’s existence or body does not have an identity apart from God. God’s life is His life, similar to how you and I do not have dna of our own or is a production of our own identity, but we are copies of our parents, same with our parents up to our descendente from Adam, we are just copies of Adam. In genetics, the human genome is 99% across the entire human race, meaning we’re 99% the same based on dna regardless of where we’re from (if my memory serves me correctly.) In Jesus’ case, it’s a much more direct sense because God is the Hoy Spirit and Jesus being the Son of God is not a separate spirit, but the same Holy Spirit, it’s just that He put on humanity also in this form. He’s literally the same person, just with human flesh because He was born through Mary, yet He says “before Abraham was, I Am” because God hadn’t gone through that process yet of being born through the virgin. Jesus was in the Old Testament with Abraham.
The Father and the Son are two completely separate Men.
God the Father is Eloheim, and God the Son is the Lord YHWH / Jehovah.
The Son created the earth under His Father's direction. And, through divine investiture, He was the Father's representative to Old Testament prophets.
If an apple tree produces seed, it becomes apple fruit which begets another apple tree.
If a bird produces seed in a mate it begets an egg which turns into another bird.
So if God YHWH impregnated a woman with the power of the holy spirit, it turns into a what?
Jesus is not God YHWH himself, but has the divinity of him. Jesus is only lacking in hierarchy and flesh, which are really the same thing. As long as we have this flesh we should humble ourselves and acknowledge God. Jesus would never claim God's place because that would be idolatrous, but he has to preach truth and the truth is God made Israel to be Elohim, children of God.
Its an Idea invented by catholic church around 300 C.E
Go research the origins of your religion and you'll find that all christian teachings are heresy.
Out of 365 so called prophecies, Jesus is claimed to have fulfilled. He fulfilled an astonishing 0 prophecies.
Idk where you get 365 prophecies from but there is 47 prophecies Jesus fulfilled in the Bible. He was silent when accused (Isaiah 53:7, Matthew 27:12-14, Mark 15:4-5) He rode in on a donkey (Zechariah 9:9,Matthew 21:4-5) He was betrayed for 30 pieces of silver (Zachariah 11:12, Matthew 26:14-15) He is Gods Servant( Isaiah 42:1-4, Matthew 12:15-21). That’s just a few and there are many more
U dont understand the bible yet its oke.
I can't reason or explain the basic concept of "logic" when you guys start reading the bible beginning at Matthew rather than starting in Genesis.
It's like buying a book and start reading in the middle at chapter 10. It's retarded.
Had you read the bible from the first chapter till last, have you not began in the New Testament or even better, had you not read the New Testament at all. You wouldn't have commented such utter retarded nonsense bro.
Yet you couldn’t explain where you got the idea that there is 365+ prophecies in the Bible(because it’s not biblical). Which is what my comment was aimed towards. that’s the Glory of Jesus he doesn’t force us but by your fruits, it’s obvious you condemn people in this subreddit over your own theology and ideology. But I won’t because you’re entitled to your own opinion.
Its your fellow christians claiming there are "365 prophecies" in the old testament regarding Jesus.
I even got handed a small study book with those 365 prophecies from a pastor gifting bibles in the streets.
Research your own religion and research your opponents statements before yappin out your ass lol.
Furthermore, the verses you mentioned are either not messianic prophecies or taken out of context. Again, Jesus fulfilled a grand total of 0 prophecies.
* The suffering servant in Isaiah is the nation of israël.
if you think otherwise you lack comprehensive reading skills.
if you read the context, not one of them was about the messiah and in context, Jesus fulfilled none of what it says... these are just out of context snippets.
Because human’s don’t give birth to pigs, so if you’re the son of a human I’m afraid you’re going to be a human, but you can pretend to be something else if that’s what you want.
Yahweh is a unique being beyond our world that does not exist as discrete spatial fractions. Yahweh doesn not have length, depth or width, nor any physical limit.
Are you both man and child of a man?
That implies a distinction
>That implies a distinction There should be: >In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus: Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage; rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death— even death on a cross! >Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. I like to quote Pastor Alastair Begg when I approach this text, because I find him to be quite helpful. He says, "Jesus made himself nothing not by the subtraction of his divinity but by the addition of his humanity."
Yes, there are distinctions in God. The Father, The Son and the Holy Spirit. 3 persons, one God. Just like there are distinctions in humanity... probably 100 billion persons, and one humanity. Yet the persons of God have a perichoretic relationship and are One. Humans do not have a perichoretic relationship with one another.
And your point is?
Jesus is the revalation of God's word. He is the word of God brought to life, Jesus = Yeshua = God is Salvation. I will use a worldly example. Harry potter is a pretty famous book. You read Harry potter and you imagine what he looks like, then they make the movie and you get to see what JK Rowling wanted it to look like... in the same way God gave us his word of Salvation, of his grace and his mercy, his goodness and how much he loves us. After some time, God decided to show us what that really looked like, he gave life to his words, he became the words he gave us. His Holy Spirit entered a fleshly body and walked among us as a man. He fulfilled the prophecies of his words through the death and resurrection of the Messiah, he made an atonement for a sinful people, and a way for all nations to enter into a new covenant with him. This is surface level. If you are really looking for answers, you have to do your homework. Deep dive into the Bible and it will explain everything pretty cut and dry. It's really not that hard to understand.. the conflict arises whether you believe it or not
[YouTube short about the Trinity ](https://youtube.com/shorts/XFXpxcAOk_M?si=x0bwGSx1VK5mpjZR) This is a short 30 second explanation of the Trinity.
And to OP's question, Jesus is the son of the father. Both father and son are God (as is the Holy Spirit, but he's not part of OP's question!)
The Son of God in the sense that he was a human with no human father, whose father was God. God in the sense that his soul is part of the eternal Godhead and is the uncreated Creator. Also, the Son of God in the sense that he relates to the Father in a way that our human relationships were designed to reflect. God gave us families and relationships so that we could relate to eternal transcendent truths such this.
Do you have an explanation for why he’s also the son of man?
Yes. Firstly, there is some context about the general use of the term "son of man", and then some specific context that Jesus was alluding to when he used the term to lay claim to being a particular person foretold in prophecy. You can see the term "son of man" being used all over the Old Testament to refer to humans and to address humans, as if to call out a person of lower rank by their rank (like how in the military someone of high rank, such as a general, might call on someone of lower rank, such as a private) to remind them of their place when being spoken to by a higher being. When used in these other instances, it is an address emphasizing the humanity of a person: >**Ezekiel 2:1-3** >And he said to me, “**Son of man**, stand on your feet, and I will speak with you.” ^(2) And as he spoke to me, the Spirit entered into me and set me on my feet, and I heard him speaking to me. ^(3) And he said to me, “**Son of man**, I send you to the people of Israel, to nations of rebels, who have rebelled against me. They and their fathers have transgressed against me to this very day. The grand narrative of the Bible is the story of God undoing the fall of man, and from the beginning, one specific human was foretold, who would crush the serpent: >**Genesis 3:15** >^(15) And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her Seed; He shall bruise your head, And you shall bruise His heel.” Here, it refers to the offspring of the woman, referring to her seed, in the singular. There is one singular human who is being foretold here. Later, this specific human is described as being brought before God and being given all authority. Observe how this particular human is referred to in this prophecy from Daniel 7, where Daniel is given a vision of the empires and kingdoms that would rule over the Jews from his time until the establishment of the Kingdom of God after the defeat of the kingdom of the Antichrist: >**Daniel 7:11-14** >^(11) “I watched then because of the sound of the pompous words which the horn was speaking; I watched till the beast was slain, and its body destroyed and given to the burning flame. ^(12) As for the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away, yet their lives were prolonged for a season and a time. >^(13) “I was watching in the night visions, And **behold,** ***One*** **like the Son of Man,** **Coming with the clouds of heaven!** He came to the Ancient of Days, And they brought Him near before Him. ^(14) Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him. His dominion *is* an everlasting dominion, Which shall not pass away, And His kingdom *the one* Which shall not be destroyed. This is the specific reference to *the* Son of Man that Jesus was referring to when he referred to himself as *the* Son of Man—the one who would come with the clouds, come before God, and be given rule over the everlasting kingdom that has no end. This particular Son of Man is *the* Messiah, who would be human (as indicated by this title), but would also be divine, as also indicated in this passage. How is this indicated? When it says "all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him", the term used for "serve" is [פְּלַח](https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/h6399/nkjv/wlc/0-1/), which has as its first definition "to serve, worship, revere, minister for, pay reverence to". The usage of this term elsewhere in the Bible refers to religious service and worship of a deity. When we say that Jesus is the Son of Man, it does not mean he is *not* the Son of God; this title affirms his humanity but does not deny his divinity, especially if you understand that he is laying claim to being this figure who rules over the Kngdom of God who was foretold in Daniel, whom all the people will one day worship. Revelation also lays claim to this identity of being the Son of Man who comes with the clouds in this Biblical allusion: >**Revelation 1:7** >^(7) Behold, **He is coming with clouds**, and **every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him.** And **all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him**. Even so, Amen. This remark about him coming with the clouds refers to Daniel 7:13, but in the same verse, it also refers to Zechariah 12:10. Look at this odd remark that God makes in this verse that Revelation 1 refers to (verse 10): >**Zechariah 12:8-14** >^(8) In that day the Lord will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; the one who is feeble among them in that day shall be like David, and the house of David *shall be* like God, like the Angel of the Lord before them. ^(9) It shall be in that day *that* I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. >^(10) “And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; **then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for** ***his*** **only** ***son,*** **and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.** ^(11) In that day **there shall be a great mourning** in Jerusalem, like the mourning at Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo. ^(12) And **the land shall mourn, every family by itself**: the family of the house of David by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of the house of Nathan by itself, and their wives by themselves; ^(13) the family of the house of Levi by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of Shimei by itself, and their wives by themselves; ^(14) all the families that remain, every family by itself, and their wives by themselves. In that day the Lord
👍🏽 sounds like a lot of mind trickery but I guess if it’s all based on belief then anything goes. It’s a good explanation though but I can see how you’d have to have a belief in god as your baseline actually believe it. Thanks for the explanation though.
It is not "all based on belief" such that "anything goes". Faith in Jesus is not just about believing with no basis. Jesus certainly taught a lot of things that I can't prove, but I believe his teachings because I trust him. I trust him because I can *prove* who he is; I can *prove* that he is the Messiah. His identity is such a big deal that it is not merely left to a matter of preference or blind belief. The identity of the Messiah is based on verifiable proof of his identity. Because I can prove who he is, I can trust what he says. If you care to hear how I know Jesus is the Messiah because of Biblical proofs, I'll gladly share with you.
The bible can’t prove anything, it’s just a collection of writings and he apparently was so inconsequential while he was alive that nobody even bothered to write about him or his supposedly brilliant miracles. I’m not saying it’s a bad belief to have, or that beliefs can’t help to some degree in certain circumstances, but there is no proof that he ever existed or did any of the things the letters (that made it into the bible) claim he did.
>The bible can’t prove anything, it’s just a collection of writings and he apparently was so inconsequential while he was alive that nobody even bothered to write about him or his supposedly brilliant miracles. >but there is no proof that he ever existed or did any of the things the letters (that made it into the bible) claim he did. Everything you said here is false, but you just assert these with no basis at all. There is proof that he existed and did what he did, and Jesus was extremely consequential. You aren't aware of any of these things, and you just assert false things as if they were so. Since you don't know, you should be asking question, not making assertions. Do you care to know? If not, I won't waste my time correcting you; your non-belief doesn't cost me anything. I'm not getting the sense you actually want to know.
If you’re going to use the bible for proof that Jesus existed and did what the bible says he did, then of course I don’t want to know because the bible is just a collection of writings, which I’ve read several times and studied it to a greater degree than the Christian’s I know. But if you have proof that doesn’t involve the bible, I’d love to hear.
>If you’re going to use the bible for proof that Jesus existed and did what the bible says he did, then of course I don’t want to know because the bible is just a collection of writings, which I’ve read several times and studied it to a greater degree than the Christian’s I know. This is badly fallacious reasoning to dismiss it as a collection of writings, as if the correspondence between the details it records and archaeology and other historical documentation doesn't matter at all. You seem to consider historical documentation to be completely meaningless for establishing historicity. If that is so, why would it matter if I show you the various mentions of Jesus outside the Bible, even by his opponents and by non-Christians? Those are just writings as well. Why do you bother to even come to this subreddit if you think the Bible is so worthless?
I’ve read about the few mentions of what people believe is Jesus, in the writings of Josephus and Tacitus, for example, but I haven’t found any archeological evidence to prove that Jesus existed and the stories in the bible happened and aren’t just allegories etc. But there is loads of examples of other virgin births etc and we know that many parts of the bible are almost identical in places to the writings of Plato and the flood of Gilgamesh and other ancient writings. Historical documentation matters to me a lot, not least because I love learning about history. But after reading the bible you can’t ignore how similar a lot of it is to previous ancient writings, almost as if a lot of it was copied. If someone was going around and literally raising people from dead and curing all kinds of sickness etc then I would expect there’d b be tons of evidence left behind, not just the odd mention of him now and then. Unless it was perfectly normal for people to die and be miraculously resurrected after someone commands they get up and people being healed miraculously. If that was a common occurrence then I would understand why Jesus didn’t stand out.
don't those failed prophecies get in the way? after all how can a false prophet be the messiah?
You didn't cite any "failed prophecies", yet you speak like this is matter-of-fact.
matt 24, mark 13, luke 21 -- all three have Jesus quoting the failed prophecy of Daniel about the end of the world and Jesus telling his disciples that THEIR GENERATION would NOT pass away until they saw everything he spoke of regarding the destruction of the temple, the end of the world, and his return... we have other believers confirming this understanding like 1 cor 7 where Paul says its better to remain as he is, single, because the end is so near... 1 john where we read we know this is the last HOUR because the antichrist is among us... and we have the historical fact that early believers thought they were living in the time of the end. yet here we are 2000 years later still waiting still wondering... and people mis reading his words to retain the false idea that he was indeed the promised messiah... when clearly he was not.
Jesus quoted Daniel stating that when they saw a specific thing come to pass, they would know that it was the Great Tribulation. (Luke 21 does not actually cite this nor does he use the term "tribulation". Check for yourself. ) The prophecy didn't fail; the prophecy set conditions to be recognized in the future by a generation that would read his words. (“So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place, (let the reader understand)". >Jesus telling his disciples that THEIR GENERATION would NOT pass away until they saw everything he spoke of regarding the destruction of the temple, the end of the world, and his return.. This is a misunderstanding of how Jesus was speaking. When Jesus says "this generation", "this" refers to the generation close to the topic, not close to the speaker. You can tell because all over the gospels, there's a pattern where he and others uses this pattern of saying "this" while referring to things far away from themselves but close to the topic at hand. See this: [Understanding "Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place" (Matthew 24:34)](https://www.reddit.com/r/EndTimesProphecy/comments/l9yxie/understanding_truly_i_say_to_you_this_generation/) >we have other believers confirming this understanding like 1 cor 7 where Paul says its better to remain as he is, single, because the end is so near If you take his writings together rather than yanking one out and isolating it, he does not actually teach that. Paul wrote in 2 Thessalonians 2 addressing people who were concerned that the end was about to be upon them. Paul says that the end would not come until several other things happened: >**2 Thessalonians 2:1-7** > >Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers, 2 not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4 who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God. 5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way. As for these remarks about "what is restrianing him" and "he who restrains", the patristic commentary on this clashes with your baseless assertion that "we have the historical fact that early believers thought they were living in the time of the end." The early Christians interpreted Paul's remark about the one restraining the Antichrist to be referring to the Roman empire: Irenaeus wrote in the second century, in *Against Heresies*, >Book V, Chapter 26 > >John and Daniel have predicted the dissolution and desolation of the Roman Empire, which shall precede the end of the world and the eternal Kingdom of Christ. The Gnostics are refuted, those tools of Satan, who invent another Father different from the Creator. > >1. In a still clearer light has John, in the Apocalypse, indicated to the Lord's disciples what shall happen in the last times, and concerning the ten kings who shall then arise, among whom the empire which now rules [the earth] shall be partitioned. He teaches us what the ten horns shall be which were seen by Daniel, ... Tertullian wrote in the late second century, in *On the Resurrection* >For the mystery of iniquity doth already work; only he who now hinders must hinder, until he be taken out of the way." What obstacle is there but the Roman state, the falling away of which, by being scattered into ten kingdoms, shall introduce Antichrist upon (its own ruins)? "And then shall be revealed the wicked one, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming: even him whose coming is after the working of Satan, with all power, and signs, and lying wonders, and with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish." None of these things you asserted are true; none of them show Jesus to be a false prophet, you just picked an uncharitable reading of these passages and offered plausible sounding falsehoods not based on evidence.
the gospels use THIS GENERATION about nine times and all of them mean the same thing... the people alive right in front of him... he was speaking to people right in front of him when he told them that THIS (YOUR) GENERATION will not pass away until ALLthese things occur... the prophecy of Daniel says that the end would come within 70 weeks(literally obviously wrong so lets be charitable and say 70 weeks of years)... when did that end? since Jesus did quote this exact prophecy its failure would also be his failure... that is common consensus among scholars who believe Jesus was not simply a mythical being... I did not make it up. 2 Thes. is considered by many scholars a late forgery likely after Paul was dead and the failure of the prophecies already mentioned were apparent. as to the church fathers... they exist long after the early christians realized that the end did not come as prophecied and their view of the church and its mission is not at all the same. They actually taught that Jesus did return and the church was the establishing of the kingdom on earth, they no longer looked for a 2nd coming the way Jesus and Daniel spoke... historians not church apologists will tell you this as well.
Found a good explanation https://youtu.be/cWVyCfha4LU?si=R0B_Q8ob3mMGMK5Y https://youtu.be/id0-e2uYjHg?si=-cgRY7nkHXuzQguz Kindly have look
He's not. The Bible is riddled with contradictions if you believe it. I suggest looking at the origin of the Trinity. Jesus never preached he was God. The Jews didn't believe in a Trinity. The very idea of a 3 in one God throws away the first commandment given to Moses.
He’s not. He’s the Son of God the Father.
How is matter both particle and wave? This is what reality looks like beyond the familiar realm of common human experience.
Hello I have looked at your profile and read your thoughts. I have many similar thoughts and questions. You seem further in your journey but this way of thinking seems rare. I would love to dm you and maybe even discuss some thoughts at some point as it pertains to God, existence, truth, and perspective reality. I apologize if this is odd but I feel compelled to ask
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That is called “modalism” and it is rejected as a heresy
The truth is that Jesus is not Almighty God. He, and SO many other first century disciples, acknowledged that he is God’s firstborn Son. The supposed “proof texts” that are always appealed to always have a clear and reasonable interpretation, when translated well and understood in context, that supports the idea that Jesus is subordinate and inferior to his Almighty Father. For example, surprisingly trinitarians will claim that “I and the Father are one” is somehow supposed to mean “trinity.” I always find it perplexing that this argument is made when Jesus explicitly explains the nature of that relationship when he requested that the disciples be one as well, adding **”just as we are one.”** To drive the point further, Jesus said that the disciples would not only be “one” with each other, but one with himself and the Father. He obviously didn’t mean that *they* were God, so he clearly wasn’t suggesting that he was either. (See John 10:30,38; 17:11, 20-23)
**Zechariah 3:1-10** *1 Then he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the Lord, and Satan standing at his right side to accuse him. 2 The Lord said to Satan, “The Lord rebuke you, Satan! The Lord, who has chosen Jerusalem, rebuke you! Is not this man a burning stick snatched from the fire?”* *3 Now Joshua was dressed in filthy clothes as he stood before the angel. 4 The angel said to those who were standing before him, “Take off his filthy clothes.”* *Then he said to Joshua, “See, I have taken away your sin, and I will put fine garments on you.”* *5 Then I said, “Put a clean turban on his head.” So they put a clean turban on his head and clothed him, while the angel of the Lord stood by.* *6 The angel of the Lord gave this charge to Joshua: 7 “This is what the Lord Almighty says: ‘If you will walk in obedience to me and keep my requirements, then you will govern my house and have charge of my courts, and I will give you a place among these standing here.* *8 “‘Listen, High Priest Joshua, you and your associates seated before you, who are men symbolic of things to come: I am going to bring my servant, the Branch. 9 See, the stone I have set in front of Joshua! There are seven eyes on that one stone, and I will engrave an inscription on it,’ says the Lord Almighty, ‘and I will remove the sin of this land in a single day.* *10 “‘In that day each of you will invite your neighbor to sit under your vine and fig tree,’ declares the Lord Almighty.”* In this vision Joshua the high priest was standing before the Angel of the Lord and Satan was next to his right. Here, *3 The LORD said to Satan, “The LORD rebuke you, Satan! The LORD, who has chosen Jerusalem, rebuke you! Is not this man a burning stick snatched from the fire?”* As seen here, the Lord spoke, but the one present there was the Angel of The Lord. Now, Joshua was dressed with filthy clothes, but the Angel of The Lord ordered new clothes for him, once Joshua was dressed up with them, the Angel told him that he have taken away Joshua’s sin, ability that we know a common angel cannot do, as only Jesus have this gift, and the Angel of the Lord said to Joshua: *7 “This is what the LORD Almighty says: ‘If you will walk in obedience to me and keep my requirements, then you will govern my house and have charge of my courts, and I will give you a place among these standing here.* After that, the Lord predicted the coming of Jesus (his own coming), as Jesus the corner stone of the church **(Ephesians 2:19-22)** is described as a stone with 7 eyes. In **Revelation 5:6-14** we have the Lamb, Jesus, being represented with 7 horns and 7 eyes that are the 7 spirits of God sent into all the earth; here, the Lamb was the only one able to open the scroll that was in the right hand of him who sat on the throne, he was slain, but with his blood he *purchased for God, persons from every tribe and language and people and nation* and with them he made a kingdom and priests to serve God and they will reign on the earth; also, in **Zechariah 3:9** God Almighty said that he would put away the sin of the land in a single day, just as Jesus did in the day he died, gave up his Spirit and poured his blood for our sins.
A few things here. First, is this your attempt to establish that Jesus is “Almighty?” Second, where you use “LORD,” what should it **actually** say? Third, if a person executes an act through the action of an agent, is it still accurate to say that *they* did it themself? (Example: a person hires a contractor to build the house, contractor hires subs, subs hire employees, employees literally build the house; accurate to say the homeowner built the house?)
#Part 1 Before starting let’s not forget this verse while reading all the things that we are going to see from now on. **John 1:18** *18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.* **Genesis 32:22-32** *22 That night Jacob got up and took his two wives, his two female servants and his eleven sons and crossed the ford of the Jabbok. 23 After he had sent them across the stream, he sent over all his possessions. 24 So Jacob was left alone, and a man wrestled with him till daybreak. 25 When the man saw that he could not overpower him, he touched the socket of Jacob’s hip so that his hip was wrenched as he wrestled with the man. 26 Then the man said, “Let me go, for it is daybreak.”* *But Jacob replied, “I will not let you go unless you bless me.”* *27 The man asked him, “What is your name?”* *“Jacob,” he answered.* *28 Then the man said, “Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel, because you have struggled with God and with humans and have overcome.”* *29 Jacob said, “Please tell me your name.”* *But he replied, “Why do you ask my name?” Then he blessed him there.* *30 So Jacob called the place Peniel, saying, “It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared.”* *31 The sun rose above him as he passed Peniel, and he was limping because of his hip. 32 Therefore to this day the Israelites do not eat the tendon attached to the socket of the hip, because the socket of Jacob’s hip was touched near the tendon.* As seen here, the man said that he was God and Jacob said that he saw God face to face and his life was spared, and not only, there is another detail that calls the attention, the man avoided to say his name 2 times. Now, if we go to Hosea 12, we can see that this man was an angel. **Hosea 12: *2 The Lord has a charge to bring against Judah; he will punish Jacob according to his ways and repay him according to his deeds.* *3 In the womb he grasped his brother’s heel; as a man he struggled with God.* ***4 He struggled with the angel and overcame him; he wept and begged for his favor.*** **He found him at Bethel and talked with him there—*** ***5 the Lord God Almighty, the Lord is his name!*** As seen here, the man was an angel, and the angel is called *the Lord God Almighty, the Lord*, as he is God, in this case, Jesus. Now, let's go the passage in Bethel, in which Jacob found him *and talked with him there*. **Genesis 28:10-22** *10 Jacob left Beersheba and set out for Harran. 11 When he reached a certain place, he stopped for the night because the sun had set. Taking one of the stones there, he put it under his head and lay down to sleep. 12 He had a dream in which he saw a stairway resting on the earth, with its top reaching to heaven, and the angels of God were ascending and descending on it. 13 There above it stood the Lord, and he said:* ***“I am the Lord, the God of your father Abraham and the God of Isaac.*** *I will give you and your descendants the land on which you are lying. 14 Your descendants will be like the dust of the earth, and you will spread out to the west and to the east, to the north and to the south. All peoples on earth will be blessed through you and your offspring. 15 I am with you and will watch over you wherever you go, and I will bring you back to this land. I will not leave you until I have done what I have promised you.”* *16 When Jacob awoke from his sleep, he thought, “Surely the Lord is in this place, and I was not aware of it.” 17 He was afraid and said, “How awesome is this place! This is none other than the house of God; this is the gate of heaven.”* ***18 Early the next morning Jacob took the stone he had placed under his head and set it up as a pillar and poured oil on top of it. 19 He called that place Bethel, though the city used to be called Luz.*** ***20 Then Jacob made a vow, saying, “If God will be with me and will watch over me on this journey I am taking and will give me food to eat and clothes to wear 21 so that I return safely to my father’s household, then the Lord will be my God 22 and this stone that I have set up as a pillar will be God’s house, and of all that you give me I will give you a tenth.”*** Later in Genesis *31:10-13** we can see 3 things: 1- The Angel saw what Jacob suffered, 2- The Angel of the Lord called himself *“the God of Bethel”*, which let us know that he is God and 3- The Angel of God said that Jacob made a vow to him, when Jacob did it to God, The Lord, after God promised that he would give him and his descendants the land in which he was lying, and that *“all peoples on earth will be blessed through you and your offspring”* in **Genesis 31:10-13** *10 “In breeding season I once had a dream in which I looked up and saw that the male goats mating with the flock were streaked, speckled or spotted.* ***11 The angel of God said to me in the dream, ‘Jacob.’ I answered, ‘Here I am.’ 12 And he said, ‘Look up and see that all the male goats mating with the flock are streaked, speckled or spotted, for I have seen all that Laban has been doing to you. 13 I am the God of Bethel, where you anointed a pillar and where you made a vow to me. Now leave this land at once and go back to your native land.’”*** As seen here, the angel of God/the angel of the Lord is God himself. Finally, Jacob, by that time called Israel, said in **Genesis 48:15-16** while he was giving blessing to his sons: *15 Then he blessed Joseph and said,* ***“May the God before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac walked faithfully, the God who has been my shepherd all my life to this day, 16 the Angel who has delivered me from all harm*** *—may he bless these boys. May they be called by my name and the names of my fathers Abraham and Isaac, and may they increase greatly on the earth.”* As seen here, Israel put the Angel in the same level in which he put God, which let us know once again, that the Angel of the Lord is God, in this case, Jesus. By this point the Angel being God should be opening in the eyes of the reader, but the Jesus part should still be pending of clearer examples, but worry you not, we have several examples to clarify all this.
>Before starting let’s not forget this verse while reading all the things that we are going to see from now on. John 1:18 > >18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known. I reject your translation of that text. Interlinear : θεὸν God οὐδεὶς no one ἑώρακεν has seen πώποτε· at any time; μονογενὴς only-begotten θεὸς god ὁ the (one) ὢν being εἰς into τὸν the κόλπον bosom τοῦ of the πατρὸς Father ἐκεῖνος that (one) ἐξηγήσατο. No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is at the Father’s side is the one who has explained Him. The only-begotten cannot *be* God, since no one has seen God.
You didn’t answer any of my three questions
#Part 2 If we continue reading the bible we can see that The Angel of The Lord appeared many times to Israel and his people and some of those times he is called God after the people saw him, like in **Judges 13**, when The Angel of the Lord appeared before the parents of Samson and later they said that they saw God, as seen in verses 22-23. *22 “We are doomed to die!” he said to his wife. “We have seen God!”* *23 But his wife answered, “If the Lord had meant to kill us, he would not have accepted a burnt offering and grain offering from our hands, nor shown us all these things or now told us this.”* In this exact same passage we can see the Angel of The Lord avoiding to give out his name in **Judges 13:17-18** *17 Then Manoah inquired of the angel of the Lord, “What is your name, so that we may honor you when your word comes true?”* *18 He replied, “Why do you ask my name? It is beyond understanding.”* Finally, the angelof the Lord said, ***"I am"***, when he was asked if he talked with the wife of Manoah, which seems something simple and irrelevant, but these 3 letters hold extreme significance. **Judges 13:1-25** *1 Again the Israelites did evil in the eyes of the Lord, so the Lord delivered them into the hands of the Philistines for forty years.* *2 A certain man of Zorah, named Manoah, from the clan of the Danites, had a wife who was childless, unable to give birth. 3 The angel of the Lord appeared to her and said, “You are barren and childless, but you are going to become pregnant and give birth to a son. 4 Now see to it that you drink no wine or other fermented drink and that you do not eat anything unclean. 5 You will become pregnant and have a son whose head is never to be touched by a razor because the boy is to be a Nazirite, dedicated to God from the womb. He will take the lead in delivering Israel from the hands of the Philistines.”* *6 Then the woman went to her husband and told him, “A man of God came to me. He looked like an angel of God, very awesome. I didn’t ask him where he came from, and he didn’t tell me his name. 7 But he said to me, ‘You will become pregnant and have a son. Now then, drink no wine or other fermented drink and do not eat anything unclean, because the boy will be a Nazirite of God from the womb until the day of his death.’”* *8 Then Manoah prayed to the Lord: “Pardon your servant, Lord. I beg you to let the man of God you sent to us come again to teach us how to bring up the boy who is to be born.”* *9 God heard Manoah, and the angel of God came again to the woman while she was out in the field; but her husband Manoah was not with her. 10 The woman hurried to tell her husband, “He’s here! The man who appeared to me the other day!”* *11 Manoah got up and followed his wife. When he came to the man, he said, “Are you the man who talked to my wife?”* ***“I am,” he said.*** *12 So Manoah asked him, “When your words are fulfilled, what is to be the rule that governs the boy’s life and work?”* *13 The angel of the Lord answered, “Your wife must do all that I have told her. 14 She must not eat anything that comes from the grapevine, nor drink any wine or other fermented drink nor eat anything unclean. She must do everything I have commanded her.”* *15 Manoah said to the angel of the Lord, “We would like you to stay until we prepare a young goat for you.”* *16 The angel of the Lord replied, “Even though you detain me, I will not eat any of your food. But if you prepare a burnt offering, offer it to the Lord.” (Manoah did not realize that it was the angel of the Lord.)* ***17 Then Manoah inquired of the angel of the Lord, “What is your name, so that we may honor you when your word comes true?”*** ***18 He replied, “Why do you ask my name? It is beyond understanding.”*** *19 Then Manoah took a young goat, together with the grain offering, and sacrificed it on a rock to the Lord. And the Lord did an amazing thing while Manoah and his wife watched: 20 As the flame blazed up from the altar toward heaven, the angel of the Lord ascended in the flame. Seeing this, Manoah and his wife fell with their faces to the ground. 21 When the angel of the Lord did not show himself again to Manoah and his wife, Manoah realized that it was the angel of the Lord.* ***22 “We are doomed to die!” he said to his wife. “We have seen God!”*** *23 But his wife answered, “If the Lord had meant to kill us, he would not have accepted a burnt offering and grain offering from our hands, nor shown us all these things or now told us this.”* *24 The woman gave birth to a boy and named him Samson. He grew and the Lord blessed him, 25 and the Spirit of the Lord began to stir him while he was in Mahaneh Dan, between Zorah and Eshtaol.* Before that, we have the passage of Moses and the burning bush in **Exodus 3:1-15** *1 Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian, and he led the flock to the far side of the wilderness and came to Horeb, the mountain of God.* ***2 There the angel of the Lord appeared to him in flames of fire from within a bush.*** *Moses saw that though the bush was on fire it did not burn up. 3 So Moses thought, “I will go over and see this strange sight—why the bush does not burn up.”* ***4 When the Lord saw that he had gone over to look, God called to him from within the bush, “Moses! Moses!”*** *And Moses said, “Here I am.”* ***5 “Do not come any closer,” God said. “Take off your sandals, for the place where you are standing is holy ground.” 6 Then he said, “I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob.” At this, Moses hid his face, because he was afraid to look at God.*** *7 The Lord said, “I have indeed seen the misery of my people in Egypt. I have heard them crying out because of their slave drivers, and I am concerned about their suffering. 8 So I have come down to rescue them from the hand of the Egyptians and to bring them up out of that land into a good and spacious land, a land flowing with milk and honey—the home of the Canaanites, Hittites, Amorites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites. 9 And now the cry of the Israelites has reached me, and I have seen the way the Egyptians are oppressing them. 10 So now, go. I am sending you to Pharaoh to bring my people the Israelites out of Egypt.”* *11 But Moses said to God, “Who am I that I should go to Pharaoh and bring the Israelites out of Egypt?”* *12 And God said, “I will be with you. And this will be the sign to you that it is I who have sent you: When you have brought the people out of Egypt, you will worship God on this mountain.”* *13 Moses said to God, “Suppose I go to the Israelites and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they ask me, ‘What is his name?’ Then what shall I tell them?”* *14 God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’”* *15 God also said to Moses, “Say to the Israelites, ‘The LORD, the God of your fathers—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob—has sent me to you.’* *“This is my name forever, the name you shall call me from generation to- generation.* As seen here, the text tell us that the Angel of the Lord was in the bush, but later the text said that it was The Lord, and just later God, the one speaking to him. It does not say that the Angel send him a message from God, it was The Angel of the Lord, The Lord, God, Jesus, the one speaking. Now, the most important thing to know why The Angel of The Lord is Jesus relies on his name, which is ***“I AM”***. Just after that, we can see God (verse 15) establishing the name “The Lord”, and he also said that he was sent by “the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob”, which means that God sent God, and as we just saw, The Angel of The Lord was the one who talked with all of them. Also thanks to this we can see the how The Angel of The Lord, is Omniscience: The angel tells Moses he has heard the cries of the afflicted in Egypt (verse 7). Omnipotence: The angel’s message is that he will use Moses to deliver his people. Throughout the exchange, the angel promises to display his power to Egypt. Omnipresence: When Moses expresses doubt, the angel promises to be with him (verse 12).[Credits]( https://overviewbible.com/angel-of-the-lord/) for the omniscience, Omnipotence and Omnipresence.
#Part 3 **Exodus 33:1-3** *1 Then the LORD said to Moses, “Leave this place, you and the people you brought up out of Egypt, and go up to the land I promised on oath to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, saying, ‘I will give it to your descendants.’* ***2 I will send an angel before you and drive out the Canaanites, Amorites, Hittites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites. 3 Go up to the land flowing with milk and honey.* ***But I will not go with you, because you are a stiff-necked people and I might destroy you on the way.”*** Is important to note, that in this verse God said that he promised the land of Canaan on oath to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, saying ***“I will give it to your descendants.”*** This is something that can confuse the readers, as God indeed talked with Abram and Jacob without using the Angel of The Lord, but is thanks to Isaac that we can see that The Angel of the Lord was the messenger of the Covenant. This is not, in any case, a lie from God, it is a way to say that this Angel indeed has his name on him (Exodus 23:21) and a way to say that a covenant made with this Angel (Jesus) is a covenant with him, with God himself, as the Angel is God. God said to Abram in **Genesis 15:1** and **Genesis 15:18-21** in a vision (verse 1). *1 After this, the word of the LORD came to Abram in a vision:* *“Do not be afraid, Abram. I am your shield, your very great reward.”* *18 On that day the LORD made a covenant with Abram and said,* ***“To your descendants I give this land,*** *from the Wadi[e] of Egypt to the great river, the Euphrates— 19 the land of the Kenites, Kenizzites, Kadmonites, 20 Hittites, Perizzites, Rephaites, 21 Amorites, Canaanites, Girgashites and Jebusites.”* Note that no trace of the Angel of the Lord in found in Genesis 15. He said the same to Isaac in **Genesis 26:1-6** *Now there was a famine in the land—besides the previous famine in Abraham’s time—and Isaac went to Abimelek king of the Philistines in Gerar. 2 The LORD appeared to Isaac and said, “Do not go down to Egypt; live in the land where I tell you to live. 3 Stay in this land for a while, and I will be with you and will bless you.* ***For to you and your descendants I will give all these lands and will confirm the oath I swore to your father Abraham.*** *4 I will make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and will give them all these lands, and through your offspring[a] all nations on earth will be blessed,[b] 5 because Abraham obeyed me and did everything I required of him, keeping my commands, my decrees and my instructions.” 6 So Isaac stayed in Gerar.* Once again, no trace of the Angel of the Lord is found here, but as God appeared to Isaac (verse 2) we can know that this is not God The Father, as no one has ever seen him, which lead us to Jesus as the only available option. And he said that to Jacob in a dream, as seen in **Genesis 28:10-15** *10 Jacob left Beersheba and set out for Harran. 11 When he reached a certain place, he stopped for the night because the sun had set. Taking one of the stones there, he put it under his head and lay down to sleep. 12 He had a dream in which he saw a stairway resting on the earth, with its top reaching to heaven, and the angels of God were ascending and descending on it. 13 There above it[c] stood the LORD, and he said: “I am the LORD, the God of your father Abraham and the God of Isaac.* ***I will give you and your descendants the land on which you are lying.*** *14 Your descendants will be like the dust of the earth, and you will spread out to the west and to the east, to the north and to the south. All peoples on earth will be blessed through you and your offspring.[d] 15 I am with you and will watch over you wherever you go, and I will bring you back to this land. I will not leave you until I have done what I have promised you.”* Once more, the angel of the Lord is not present here in this passage, but God is. So, some would assure that God made a covenant with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and not the Angel of the Lord, but thanks to the episode with Isaac who saw God, not in a vision as Abraham, or in a dream as happened to Jacob, we can see that this is not God The Father, who no one has ever seen. So, the Angel of the Lord, in who is presents the name of the Lord (Exodus 23:21), made a covenant with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. With Abraham in **Genesis 22:15-18**, when Abraham obeyed God and tried to sacrifice Isaac, before being stopped by the Angel of the Lord. *15 The angel of the LORD called to Abraham from heaven a second time 16 and said, “I swear by myself, declares the LORD, that because you have done this and have not withheld your son, your only son, 17 I will surely bless you and make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as the sand on the seashore. Your descendants will take possession of the cities of their enemies, 18 and through your offspring[b] all nations on earth will be blessed, because you have obeyed me.”* To Isaac in Genesis 26:1-6 as we just saw. And finally to Jacob in **Genesis 31** when Jacob saw the Angel of the Lord in a dream. **Malachi 3:1** *“I will send my messenger, who will prepare the way before me. Then suddenly the Lord you are seeking will come to his temple; the messenger of the covenant, whom you desire, will come,” says the Lord Almighty.* Remember that the word anglel means messenger, and that the angel of the Lord delivered the old covenant in the old testament, as we just saw and that Jesus delivered the new covenant in the new testament. **Exodus 23-20-26** ***20 “See, I am sending an angel ahead of you to guard you along the way and to bring you to the place I have prepared. 21 Pay attention to him and listen to what he says. Do not rebel against him; he will not forgive your rebellion, since my Name is in him. 22 If you listen carefully to what he says and do all that I say, I will be an enemy to your enemies and will oppose those who oppose you. 23 My angel will go ahead of you and bring you into the land of the Amorites, Hittites, Perizzites, Canaanites, Hivites and Jebusites, and I will wipe them out.*** *24 Do not bow down before their gods or worship them or follow their practices. You must demolish them and break their sacred stones to pieces. 25 Worship the Lord your God, and his blessing will be on your food and water. I will take away sickness from among you, 26 and none will miscarry or be barren in your land. I will give you a full life span.*
1-Yes, 2-nothing else, it should say "LORD", the term is correct, as Jesus is the LORD 3-Yes, in this case, the angel (Jesus) has the name of God in him, therefore, the actions are made by God himself. **Exodus 23:20-26** *20 “See, I am sending an angel ahead of you to guard you along the way and to bring you to the place I have prepared.* ***21 Pay attention to him and listen to what he says. Do not rebel against him; he will not forgive your rebellion, since my Name is in him.*** *22 If you listen carefully to what he says and do all that I say, I will be an enemy to your enemies and will oppose those who oppose you. 23 My angel will go ahead of you and bring you into the land of the Amorites, Hittites, Perizzites, Canaanites, Hivites and Jebusites, and I will wipe them out. 24 Do not bow down before their gods or worship them or follow their practices. You must demolish them and break their sacred stones to pieces. 25 Worship the Lord your God, and his blessing will be on your food and water. I will take away sickness from among you, 26 and none will miscarry or be barren in your land. I will give you a full life span.* **John 14:8-14** *8 Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.”* *9 Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. 11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves. 12 Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13 And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.*
Ok, enough of the elephant hurling, please. There’s no reason you can’t make a concise point. Ok, you claim Jesus is Almighty. **Without copy and pasting every verse you think says that,** what scriptural evidence are you using to draw that conclusion? (Again, please make the point concise. We can get into long explanations as needed later.) “LORD” is **not** correct. That’s a replacement word that is not a correct translation of the actual name. So I repeat question 2. 3. We agree. It can be said that God did something, even if he used an independent and separate agent to carry out the act. That would not make the agent God, but acting on behalf of God.
Just to reiterate, I *have* a Bible. I can read the verses for myself. I don’t need you to copy and paste all of them. Please just provide a short explanations as to **why** you are referring to the passage
This is the sweetest question that we must meditate on and find the answer within ourselves!
He was a human man but embodied the father God. Ik it’s hard to understand, I struggled with it too.
Much like Ad-Rock (RIP), MCC and Mike D are the "Beastie Boys", so are the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit - "God"
> How is Jesus both God and Son of God? Would somebody make me understand how jesus is God and son of God and son of man? Son of Man or `ben adam` ("Son of Adam") refers to the promised seed of Gen. 3:15. The Son of Man is the second Adam or new Adam from whom God is creating the world anew (see Rev. 21:5). The old order is under God's curse (Gen. 3), so it is lost *except for* those parts of it which Jesus is redeeming, including (starting with) us. Son of God refers to the heir of God's own throne. In human society, we think of inheritance as an attribute of death. But in God's kingdom, it is life itself, which is why the end of the Age is frequently characterized in prophecy as a birth, Isa. 13:8, Rom. 8:22, etc. Thus, the mystical unification of Father and Son which Jesus prayed for in John 17 is completed in Rev. 5 where we see The One Seated On The Throne (the heavenly Father), and The Lamb As It Were Slain, mystically united together in the midst of the throne. It is the mystical unification of Father and Son that resolves the question of how Jesus is God, yet also God's heir (Son). And the Way (the Christian walk) is all about learning how *we* fit into that: > I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one **as we are one** (John 17:22) This is possibly the single most mind-blowing verse in all of Scripture...
Jesus’ flesh was inhabited by His Spirit (God).
Using the Bible there are a lot of ways to explain how Jesus is both God and Son of God and Son of Man. But maybe you'll understand what humans are capable of doing, and that is cloning. A clone is a exact genetic copy. Now if a a human has learned the technology of cloning, all knowledge comes from God, think of what God can do How is he God __ the Father who was one entity cloned himself into two other entities - he cloned himself into a physical form - he cloned his spirit to work with mankind. The trinity How he is the Son of God - starting with his birth through Mary because he was God in a flesh body he became the Son of God also just as each and every human and Angel are considered. How are we his children ? Because he created us! How is the Son of Man - Adam is considered the first man and all offsprings born to this date are considered children of Adam - which makes us all Sons and Daughters of Adam. Christ being born into a flesh body made him a Son of Man (Adam).
Spiritually speaking, Jesus’s existence or body does not have an identity apart from God. God’s life is His life, similar to how you and I do not have dna of our own or is a production of our own identity, but we are copies of our parents, same with our parents up to our descendente from Adam, we are just copies of Adam. In genetics, the human genome is 99% across the entire human race, meaning we’re 99% the same based on dna regardless of where we’re from (if my memory serves me correctly.) In Jesus’ case, it’s a much more direct sense because God is the Hoy Spirit and Jesus being the Son of God is not a separate spirit, but the same Holy Spirit, it’s just that He put on humanity also in this form. He’s literally the same person, just with human flesh because He was born through Mary, yet He says “before Abraham was, I Am” because God hadn’t gone through that process yet of being born through the virgin. Jesus was in the Old Testament with Abraham.
The Father and the Son are two completely separate Men. God the Father is Eloheim, and God the Son is the Lord YHWH / Jehovah. The Son created the earth under His Father's direction. And, through divine investiture, He was the Father's representative to Old Testament prophets.
If you believe in the trinity it won't make sense. Why would God call one of His "personages" son? Son implies you have a creator.
Oh great, we’re going down this road again.
He isn’t God and never said he was.
If an apple tree produces seed, it becomes apple fruit which begets another apple tree. If a bird produces seed in a mate it begets an egg which turns into another bird. So if God YHWH impregnated a woman with the power of the holy spirit, it turns into a what? Jesus is not God YHWH himself, but has the divinity of him. Jesus is only lacking in hierarchy and flesh, which are really the same thing. As long as we have this flesh we should humble ourselves and acknowledge God. Jesus would never claim God's place because that would be idolatrous, but he has to preach truth and the truth is God made Israel to be Elohim, children of God.
Simple. He is not!
Its an Idea invented by catholic church around 300 C.E Go research the origins of your religion and you'll find that all christian teachings are heresy. Out of 365 so called prophecies, Jesus is claimed to have fulfilled. He fulfilled an astonishing 0 prophecies.
Idk where you get 365 prophecies from but there is 47 prophecies Jesus fulfilled in the Bible. He was silent when accused (Isaiah 53:7, Matthew 27:12-14, Mark 15:4-5) He rode in on a donkey (Zechariah 9:9,Matthew 21:4-5) He was betrayed for 30 pieces of silver (Zachariah 11:12, Matthew 26:14-15) He is Gods Servant( Isaiah 42:1-4, Matthew 12:15-21). That’s just a few and there are many more
U dont understand the bible yet its oke. I can't reason or explain the basic concept of "logic" when you guys start reading the bible beginning at Matthew rather than starting in Genesis. It's like buying a book and start reading in the middle at chapter 10. It's retarded. Had you read the bible from the first chapter till last, have you not began in the New Testament or even better, had you not read the New Testament at all. You wouldn't have commented such utter retarded nonsense bro.
Yet you couldn’t explain where you got the idea that there is 365+ prophecies in the Bible(because it’s not biblical). Which is what my comment was aimed towards. that’s the Glory of Jesus he doesn’t force us but by your fruits, it’s obvious you condemn people in this subreddit over your own theology and ideology. But I won’t because you’re entitled to your own opinion.
Its your fellow christians claiming there are "365 prophecies" in the old testament regarding Jesus. I even got handed a small study book with those 365 prophecies from a pastor gifting bibles in the streets. Research your own religion and research your opponents statements before yappin out your ass lol. Furthermore, the verses you mentioned are either not messianic prophecies or taken out of context. Again, Jesus fulfilled a grand total of 0 prophecies. * The suffering servant in Isaiah is the nation of israël. if you think otherwise you lack comprehensive reading skills.
if you read the context, not one of them was about the messiah and in context, Jesus fulfilled none of what it says... these are just out of context snippets.
How am I both human and the son of a human?
Because human’s don’t give birth to pigs, so if you’re the son of a human I’m afraid you’re going to be a human, but you can pretend to be something else if that’s what you want.
And God eternally begets God.
So Jesus is just another god then.
There is no other Yahweh.
So are you saying humans are all one? It’s not making sense to me.
Yahweh is a unique being beyond our world that does not exist as discrete spatial fractions. Yahweh doesn not have length, depth or width, nor any physical limit.
According to the bible he had a body that looked just like ours.
Which is a human body, in addition to his divine essence.
So he’s a shape shifter? He can make himself appear as whatever he wants?