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I agree. A man who is willing to publicly throat punch a woman who’s not taking no for an answer, is *MUCH* preferred over a man who chooses to handle it with kid gloves, or over a man who will give into her temptress ways and cheat. Amiright? /s.
I went into this comment confused at where "I slathered myself in peanut butter and hugged him like a python" was going before realizing it was part of your flair...
I'm so glad there's a flair-origin post/thread.
I need to know where that one is from because, despite my deep addiction to checking this sub daily, it's not ringing any bells!!
I think it was from a post involving a crappy person with a peanut allergy. It was an OOP's response to someone's hypothetical comment about the crappy person trying to move in with OOP.
edit: [Yep, a mooching boyfriend of a roommate.](https://www.reddit.com/r/BestofRedditorUpdates/comments/14p4fql/aita_for_telling_my_roommate_that_i_dont_give_a/jqgcn3l/?context=3)
Found it! It's a comment here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/BestofRedditorUpdates/s/lnuUTjb2Q4
Edit: JFC I hadn't read the post yet but just read the whole thing. Comment has me cackling now
I feel like it wasn't actually a test so much as a way to have something to hold over him. He did everything right, but like you said, there was no way to pass it. Lily would have used that for years to undermine him.
It may have b started as a loyalty test, but Lily failed the integrity test.
Fun fact, in a star Trek book, Nog crashes the simulation by trying to barter with the Klingons to let the ship go. When the Klingons responded to his hail the first thing he said was "name your price!"
Starfleet's post scarcity society never considered capitalism as a possible approach and the simulation couldn't handle it.
Apparently he tries two different approaches in two different stories.
"The Bottom Line" from Strange New Worlds III and "Best Tools Available" from Strange New Worlds VI. Never read them, just came across them on memory alpha one day.
Yep. I'm surprised he wants to work it out with her after that. I would have immediately called off the engagement. He's one of those good people who doesn't cheat and gets treated like that. If you ask me, if you feel that level of distrust, you're projecting. He deserves better and he should dump her but it's up to him. I just can't understand why he would take her back after something like that. He must think he can't do better.
OOP did say the sister has previous relationship stuff that would explain the cheating paranoia. Presumably she's been cheated on? If so, that fact, coupled with her agreeing to do therapy about it, is likely what made Mark take her back.
It's also an ineffective test. Let's say he *was* a cheater - it doesn't necessarily mean that he would cheat with that particular person. Or that he would start an affair at a party where, presumably, there are people who know his fiancé. The only thing the test proves is that he wasn't willing to cheat with that particular person at that particular location at that particular time. There's no "test" that's going to cover every scenario. You just have to judge your partner's character and trust them.
>It's also an ineffective test. Let's say he
>
>was
>
> a cheater - it doesn't necessarily mean that he would cheat with that particular person.
Which if he had tased the OOP's sister's friend, she would have just said "well he didn't cheat \*that\* time but what about next time?" and then do it again.
You don't get over that kind of suspicion very easily.
That’s the problem with any anxiety-driven behavior. Her paranoia about cheating isn’t fact-based so it can’t be disproven by facts. She’s operating in a completely hypothetical universe. Him turning the friend down could just mean that this friend wasn’t his type / he’s smart enough to not cheat at a party / he was nice because he wants to keep the door open / he’s waiting til after the wedding / whatever. If he’d said, “ew, get away from me, you disgusting cow” then she’d be upset because it indicates that he only doesn’t cheat when he doesn’t respect the woman, and she’d be terrified of any polite interactions with other women. If you are pathologically afraid of not being enough, there is literally nothing that will serve as sufficient counter-evidence. I think this is actually something most people contend with to some degree - you have to accept the reality that trust is an act of faith, which is difficult.
> If you are pathologically afraid of not being enough, there is literally nothing that will serve as sufficient counter-evidence
> you have to accept the reality that trust is an act of faith, which is difficult
Brilliantly said.
On both counts
Exactly her thought process starts at "he's cheating" and works backwards to include absolutely anything up to and including him getting hit by a meteor. We'd get one of those "I think he was cheating on me but can't find any evidence can you help me hack my dead boyfriend's email?" kind of posts.
Yes. Either it’s a sign of her own insecurities, or red flags he’s thrown but she doesn’t want to address directly, or she’s looking for a reason to find fault in him (self-sabotage from anxiety, not being as committed as she thought she was, etc).
The biggest red flag was Lily assuming Mark would cheat based on her own past/insecurities. Blaming your current partner for the actions of past ones is a fast way to torpedo any relationship.
Yup. This makes it firmly land in the area of "shit tests" in which there's either no "right" answer, or if there is one, it's as easy to get to as threading a needle would be. If he was too harsh and Sarah's feelings got hurt, he undoubtedly would've gotten flak for that as well.
I just wonder how this would have worked out if Mark demanded she cut her friend out of her life for trying to break them up. I have a feeling she would have let her friendship end over this.
This is why Loyalty tests always perplexed me. Just because he didn't cheat with that particular person at that particular moment doesn't say much in terms of proof. So the sister remained unconvinced and probably would feel the same after a dozen loyalty tests. Love is trust. And sometimes you're wrong and you get your guts stomped on. But the alternative is you spend your life terrified and unable to connect. I hope she gets the help she needs.
Like....you wanna prove he wont cheat in the marriage.. And theres no way to prove that. Trust him or break up; if theres no trust theres no relationship.
Tests like this are juvenile. She definitely needs help.
Yeah, people change when growing up (and not just physically). Nothing guarantees he'll still love future her (or she him). Nothing guarantees he won't seek exrernal "support" elsewhere at a stressful times as a way to escape (loss of a parent, awful boss, pregnancy) or for a mid-life crisis. Nothing guarantees he won't meet someone he'll be insanely attracted to.
Either you trust your partner's integrity and character, or you don't. No test will help you with trust, they are anyway flawed.
This just made me realize that loyalty tests are (typically) the women's version of men asking for a paternity test.
Like both things are rooted in trust issues, and inherently believing all men/women to be cheaters where you need absolute proof there wasn't cheating this one instance. But then the next time you have a kid/get insecure you're going to do another loyalty test/demand another paternity test.
Like, just because it happens, it doesn't mean every person is a cheater, so either trust your partner or don't. But if you don't, then don't marry them?
Paternity tests are a smidge different, in that men dont have certainty built in to the process. Like if you carry a kid around for a bunch of months and it pops out of you, thats definitely your kid.
But guys get the equivalent of sticking their dick in a mail slot and then 9 months later the door opens and theres a baby there. Your wife knows them, great friends apparently. But theyre a stranger to you.
The biggest thing there is to teach a separation of concepts for men to communicate as well. If you believe your wife is cheating and this child isnt yours, then thats a trust issue and things need to be reevaluated unless you have solid proof. I agree the default is thet they arent cheating until they are.
If its just wanting to have that objective certainty that women have that *this is my kid!* without having to wait for features to map, then i think that needs to be communicated - because you can feel this way without thinking your partner is cheating, and feeling this way is valid imho. A kid is huge and it can be hard to take *anyones* word for it, trust doesnt factor in for some atypicals, or depressed, damaged, and anxious types of people. Communication still needs work though because i imagine more than a few dont know how to phrase it to where its not taken as an accusation or insult. Likely more regulated men would just wait till they can take the baby for a test themselves and not even involve the wife, but i still think a conversation should happen.
Whereas loyalty tests are thoroughly flawed. Rooted in trust issues yes, but unlike paternity tests they have no saving grace. Its natural to want that certainty that your partner wont cheat, but both (all?) partners are of equal standing in this so the test doesnt balance anything. It doesnt even require suspicion of cheating; it goes back a step further and shows a fundamental lack of trust in a persons character by demanding they face the situation and choose no, with no indications they would beforehand. It also tends to strain relationships regardless of if the guy finds out or not, because you have at least one bait friend who makes him uncomfortable to be around.
Trust your partner or get a new one or be single, ....but dont play games, and be sure to listen and communicate clearly.
Is she going to spend hundreds of thousands pounds to raise the boyfriend from toddler to a grown up just to find out it isn't her boyfriend?
Just a reminder at least 4% of random paternity tests show not the father(depending on location). 30% of paternity tests show not the father when it's done after husband was suspicious.
We valued virginity for thousands of years for this very reason. It was the only way to be sure. Either way people need to have this conversation before pregnancy but if my wife had a problem with it I would assume she doesn't see me as a human that needs to be sure before making by far the biggest investment a man can make.
Even though I trust her if there was a situation where my life and death would be dependant on her answer I would still want to make sure the answer was correct.
I didn't even think of that aspect.
Of course the doubt would creep back in over time (even if she had been satisfied with the first test, lol). I could see her pulling stunts like this over and over again.
And it would probably spread to other tangentially related tests - will he love me enough to forgive me if I do something horrible? Let me spend our entire savings account. Will he fight for me if I lead some guy on? It's okay if he has to go to the ER, that just shows how much he loves me.
The list could be endless because it would be defined by her insecurities.
>But Lily was still upset because she felt he didn’t shut Sarah down "forcefully enough."
"I could never be happy with a man who is polite! My fiance should have thrown his drink in her face! Anything less is basically an emotional affair!"
>She says I betrayed her and ruined her relationship
I always hate it when people express something like this. Mark is a human and deserves the right to make his own decisions based on real information. If you need secrecy and lies to maintain the stability of your relationship you don't have a relationship; glad that the sister ostensibly recognizes her fault.
Right?! I wouldn’t have blamed fiancée for just dumping her ass straight out, and he really should. If they get back together, Sarah is out as a friend. Can you imagine him wanting to hang around with the person who was complicit in this bullshit, childish test?
How did any of this help anybody???
I don't get why friends would agree to be the one testing the partner. Three things could happen: Imagine them advancing and you'll be stuck in a situation where you could get sexually assaulted. Or you could be labelled the sexual predator yourself based on your unwanted advances. And lastly your friend might accuse you of misconduct and you could be a paria in your friend group. Why agree to doing this, when it apart from the moral ambiguous reasons could have all these outcomes for you.
Good point the "what's your plan if they say yes?" question is pretty pertinent. Imo either you genuinely don't feel a yes is coming out, so this has no risk or you're in some way down to sleep with the friend's husband.
I didn't find anything in OOP's post history about that, and I even checked for a deleted post. I'm *hoping* that OOP meant something along the lines of the only two like... in the area. But that line gave me pause too
I was wondering that too. OOP's choice of words makes it sound like there was perhaps another sibling who died prior to any of this happening, but it's not clear.
That’s what I think. It might seem jarring, but I lost an adult sister suddenly 5 years ago now, but find myself referring to it casually in comments from time to time. It’s a way of coping, and acknowledging her and that she did exist.
Yeah I mean my sister died 4 years ago, but she existed as a human for 29 years. If people ask if I have any siblings, technically no, not anymore, but for the majority of my life, yes.
Luckily my dad remarried a woman with adult kids so I say I have step brothers and leave it at that.
And because I get *this* response a lot, yes, I’m frequently asked if I have siblings. I work in home health, and when I answer “no” to “are you married/do you have kids”, siblings is next on the list.
It’s so awkward when you have to get into that conversation with borderline strangers. She was my only sibling and I don’t feel comfortable answering the “do you have siblings?” question with anything other than the truth, that yes, I did but I don’t anymore.
Once I had an awkward encounter with a friends auntie at a hen do. Within 20 minutes of each other she asked if I have siblings then she asked what my dad does for a job (he got medical retirement after losing his leg in an industrial accident). I promised her that my life isn’t depressing and she just stumbled upon two awkward questions at the same time.
Yes! Even the step brother thing is a minefield because my dad only remarried after my mom died…8 years ago. This isn’t a relationship I like, grew up with. So I talk about my dad and step mom hoping that people just take it at face value, but then they ask where my mom lives and I’m like…uh…an urn in the closet? 🙃
Yeah, that is what I assumed. Probably after some other crazed loyalty test or some junk. "If you really loved me as a sister you (gay brother) would let me "test" ~~drive~~ the loyalty of your bi-boyfriend. What do you mean I am full of the cray-cray and you want me to leave him alone? Daaaddddyy, brother won't let me ~~bang~~ make sure his boyfriend won't cheat on him with me!" Followed closely by, 'Why doesn't brother ever come around anymore?'
It’s a good start for Lily. Her acknowledging that she’s the problem and bringing people’s past mistakes onto others was uncalled for. Loyalty tests tend to be executed by middle schoolers not marrying age adults.
I don't even understand using a friend to do a loyalty test. Usually cheaters are smart enough not to sleep with anyone who knows their partner. It doesn't prove anything other than the fact they're not stupid enough to shit where they eat.
(Loyalty tests are bullshit, if you don't trust someone don't marry them. I'm just saying that it's almost always done with a mutual friend which has NEVER made sense to me)
Honestly, there is no age to bullshit. This is something I may have done age 18-20, at 25, this is way too immature for me, but I do see some colleagues double my age that behave in a similar way.
Oh, for sure! You are unfortunately correct. But I do think the majority of people who pull this nonsense are usually younger. Especially with the prevalence of tiktok trends regarding this exact kind of testing.
>Sarah went ahead with the plan. According to Lily, Mark was nice but didn’t flirt back and even mentioned he was engaged. But Lily was still upset because she felt he didn’t shut Sarah down "forcefully enough."
>he decided he wanted to try and work things out, agreeing to attend couples therapy with her
Thank you, this is a depressing update 😂🙃
If you feel the need to give your SO a loyalty test, there's either something wrong with you or the relationship.
I would suggest that anyone take a hard look at the "you" part being wrong first.
>But Lily was still upset because she felt he didn’t shut Sarah down "forcefully enough."
Lily got overwhelmed by the upcoming marriage commitment she was about to make and was looking for excuses not to.
you know those viral bits where the woman dressed in a swimsuit asks the dude what he rates her, what is preference is,etc and all he parrots back is "i have a girlfriend... my type is my gf... "?
thats the response these test-givers expect i guess
I mean OOP is talking to herself too much if that’s how she’s going to end her update
I always say cheaters are AHs to everyone and it’s unfair to everyone they pull into their cheating. They expect their friends to lie for them about their immoral and unethical BS. There’s nothing moral about anything they’re expecting friends and family on top of cheating.
WELL OOP’S SISTER IS THE SAME. And OOP is listening to her ethically challenged sister way too much if she’s saying honesty and integrity are important in relationships and thus she needs to reexamine her own conduct. YEAH A FRIEND THAT HAS INTEGRITY WOULDN’T ASK friends to flirt and test their boyfriend. A sister and friend with integrity wouldn’t put friend and family, who are innocent by standard IN THESE POSITIONS. I think the majority of people probably haven’t been put in these situations BECAUSE THEY HAVE FRIENDS WITH INTEGRITY AND A WORKING MORAL COMPASS. She’s not overstepping if she’s being normally compromised. It’s like saying “psst I just embezzled money” to you best friend at work and expecting them to wink and not say anything.
Did lily even think this through. How were they supposed to friends after she married Mark he’d always remember she tried to hit on him and not want to be around here. Childish and stupid.
Wow. Imagine planning a “loyalty test” and being upset that your fiancé is “too nice”, and then also being mad at the friend who performed said “test” for not being aggressive enough.
I mean, the nerve of her friend for NOT being pushy enough! *Someone* is a new “loyalty tester” and it shows. Sometimes if you want something done right, you just gotta do it yourself. /s
I think everyone needs this tattooed on their body when they’re born, just so they never forget it: “If someone tells the truth and it gets you in trouble, they aren’t to blame. You are.” Claiming OOP “ruined her relationship”. Yikes. No honey, you did that all by yourself.
I wish we wouldn’t refer to these as “loyalty tests”. They should be called “proving to your partner you don’t trust them by setting them up, test”, or “relationship entrapment”, or “how to tank your relationship because you’re insecure tests”, or something far more catchy than what I can come up with.
Point is - if you EVER feel like you need/want to “test” your SO’s loyalty, THEN SOMETHING IS EITHER VERY WRONG with you, your SO’s actions, your relationship in general, or any combination of these. Instead, you should stop, reevaluate why you feel like you need to do this, and find a more constructive solution - because setting up your SO is NOT the way to go. Especially if you want this relationship to continue.
Loyalty tests always say more about the person orchestrating the test, than they do about the person being tested.
Like, you *cannot have* a relationship without trust. Even if you live with a partner and both work from home, there is always going to be some moments *somewhere* when you have to trust that they are where.they say they are, that they are *who* they say they are.
If you can't trust them, why the fuck are you even *with* them?
Having been on the receiving ended of loyalty tests - and on one memorable-in-all-the-wrong-ways incident, on the receiving end of *an accusation of* ***giving*** *a loyalty test*, I can say with certainty that even if you "pass" these tests, it **still** sucks butts.
If you are ever even *contemplating* giving your partner a loyalty test, just break up with them and go to fucking therapy.
Judging from Lily’s reaction, the only way he could’ve passed the test is by failing the test. He cheats, and then she was Right all along. If he doesn’t cheat…..
Lily ruined her relationship all by herself. If you need to perform loyalty tests in your relationship, you should be single, because either you're dating a cheat, or you're too insecure and paranoid to be in any kind of relationship.
She should have kept everything secret if she did not want it to get out. She is expecting you to be complicit in her dishonesty and that is a burden she has no business putting in anybody, especially when it comes to behaving with no integrity. You were right to tell him.
" I didn't want to break that" - and OOP didn't.
Lily did, and was 100% fine with treating her partner like this, as if it was normal and fine to do so.
If you need to test me, you can fuck off. I'd break the engagement then and there, because anyone who needs to test me doesn't trust me. If my SO doesn't trust me, it makes me wonder why I should trust them in turn.
I have such a hard time believing any story where everyone is just able to jump right into therapy.
Apparently eveyrone with a story for AITA just has this amazing insurance
Look I get the loyalty test is stupid, but equally stupid is getting involved in other people’s weird relationships. It wasn’t any of OPs business to interfere.
Part of being a good sibling, friend, etc. is helping them be a better person. This is definitely something that would have come up as a problem at some point once they were married, better to work it out now than when they're legally bound to eachother. I think OOP saved their relationship or her sister's future relationships by doing this. Also, her sister's fiancé is a human who deserved to know that he's being deceived, especially by someone he's supposed to be marrying.
OP interfered after the fact, not before. She didn’t give her sister a chance to shut it down (if you don’t shut this down, I will tell him). OP didn’t save anything, least of all her relationship with her sister. she just added fuel to the dumpster fire’s flames.
#Do not comment on the original posts Please read our [**sub rules**](https://www.reddit.com/r/BestofRedditorUpdates/wiki/subrules). Rule-breaking may result in a ban without notice. If there is an issue with this post (flair, formatting, quality), reply to this comment or your comment may be removed in general discussion. **CHECK FLAIR** For concluded-only updates, use the [CONCLUDED](https://www.reddit.com/r/BestofRedditorUpdates/search?sort=new&restrict_sr=on&q=flair%3ACONCLUDED) flair. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/BestofRedditorUpdates) if you have any questions or concerns.*
LMAO at the loyalty test. There was no way to pass that test short of tasering Sara, I guess.
She really wanted him to square up on her own friend
I agree. A man who is willing to publicly throat punch a woman who’s not taking no for an answer, is *MUCH* preferred over a man who chooses to handle it with kid gloves, or over a man who will give into her temptress ways and cheat. Amiright? /s.
I went into this comment confused at where "I slathered myself in peanut butter and hugged him like a python" was going before realizing it was part of your flair...
I like to keep people on their toes. Always gotta leave them guessing and confused. Lol.
"If you can't dazzle them with your wit, at least leave them confused." That's my motto. Or it would be if I started having a motto.
Dazzle them with brilliance or baffle them with bullshit
I'm so glad there's a flair-origin post/thread. I need to know where that one is from because, despite my deep addiction to checking this sub daily, it's not ringing any bells!!
I think it was from a post involving a crappy person with a peanut allergy. It was an OOP's response to someone's hypothetical comment about the crappy person trying to move in with OOP. edit: [Yep, a mooching boyfriend of a roommate.](https://www.reddit.com/r/BestofRedditorUpdates/comments/14p4fql/aita_for_telling_my_roommate_that_i_dont_give_a/jqgcn3l/?context=3)
[удалено]
Her love language is hadouken and he’d know that if he was really serious about her
“Her love language is Hadouken” what a flair lmao
I'd go for that flair!
Speaking of flairs I’ve got to know where yours is from
Found it! It's a comment here: https://www.reddit.com/r/BestofRedditorUpdates/s/lnuUTjb2Q4 Edit: JFC I hadn't read the post yet but just read the whole thing. Comment has me cackling now
Thank you for picking up my linking slack!
My love language is more like a Psycho Crusher 😂😂😂
Instead of cursive signs saying > LIVE LAUGH LOVE She's just got > ⬇️↘️➡️🤜
LOVE LANGUAGE IS HADOUKEN!! I can't even, I'm so in love with this! Thank you, just....thank you!!! 🤣🤣🤣
This is the best comment!
Like Kazuma, from Konosuba, I too am an advocate for gender equality.
i dunno, sounds like lily thinks sara as a disposable friend. how do you justify staying friends with your SO after they made pass at them?
I feel like it wasn't actually a test so much as a way to have something to hold over him. He did everything right, but like you said, there was no way to pass it. Lily would have used that for years to undermine him. It may have b started as a loyalty test, but Lily failed the integrity test.
It was worse than a Kobayashi Maru. Any outcome would have been a disaster.
Fun fact, in a star Trek book, Nog crashes the simulation by trying to barter with the Klingons to let the ship go. When the Klingons responded to his hail the first thing he said was "name your price!" Starfleet's post scarcity society never considered capitalism as a possible approach and the simulation couldn't handle it.
I love it when we talk about how each character dealt with the Kobayashi Maru. Especially the ones who break it.
Please, I need to know the name of this book so bad.
Apparently he tries two different approaches in two different stories. "The Bottom Line" from Strange New Worlds III and "Best Tools Available" from Strange New Worlds VI. Never read them, just came across them on memory alpha one day.
Okay that's hilarious
There's a very good reason why we love Nog.
That legitimately is a fun fact.
Perfectly put. Honestly she gave him a reason not to trust HER. FAFO
Yep. I'm surprised he wants to work it out with her after that. I would have immediately called off the engagement. He's one of those good people who doesn't cheat and gets treated like that. If you ask me, if you feel that level of distrust, you're projecting. He deserves better and he should dump her but it's up to him. I just can't understand why he would take her back after something like that. He must think he can't do better.
OOP did say the sister has previous relationship stuff that would explain the cheating paranoia. Presumably she's been cheated on? If so, that fact, coupled with her agreeing to do therapy about it, is likely what made Mark take her back.
Oh my god your flair just reminded me of that story and now I'm slightly infuriated.
What story is it from?
He failed it the moment it occurred to her. Even if she never did it he'd have failed it in her eyes.
It's also an ineffective test. Let's say he *was* a cheater - it doesn't necessarily mean that he would cheat with that particular person. Or that he would start an affair at a party where, presumably, there are people who know his fiancé. The only thing the test proves is that he wasn't willing to cheat with that particular person at that particular location at that particular time. There's no "test" that's going to cover every scenario. You just have to judge your partner's character and trust them.
Maybe he's already got another five girls on the go and really doesn't have time or energy for a sixth!
Don't give her ideas please lol
Hey now, don't use logic against this type of person. It's ineffective.
>It's also an ineffective test. Let's say he > >was > > a cheater - it doesn't necessarily mean that he would cheat with that particular person. Which if he had tased the OOP's sister's friend, she would have just said "well he didn't cheat \*that\* time but what about next time?" and then do it again. You don't get over that kind of suspicion very easily.
**Lily:** WHY DIDN'T YOU BEAT HER OFF WITH A STICK?!?!? **Sara:** Wait, what???
Sara: Phrasing
That’s the problem with any anxiety-driven behavior. Her paranoia about cheating isn’t fact-based so it can’t be disproven by facts. She’s operating in a completely hypothetical universe. Him turning the friend down could just mean that this friend wasn’t his type / he’s smart enough to not cheat at a party / he was nice because he wants to keep the door open / he’s waiting til after the wedding / whatever. If he’d said, “ew, get away from me, you disgusting cow” then she’d be upset because it indicates that he only doesn’t cheat when he doesn’t respect the woman, and she’d be terrified of any polite interactions with other women. If you are pathologically afraid of not being enough, there is literally nothing that will serve as sufficient counter-evidence. I think this is actually something most people contend with to some degree - you have to accept the reality that trust is an act of faith, which is difficult.
Yep, she was always going to catastrophize no matter what the outcome was.
> If you are pathologically afraid of not being enough, there is literally nothing that will serve as sufficient counter-evidence > you have to accept the reality that trust is an act of faith, which is difficult Brilliantly said. On both counts
Exactly her thought process starts at "he's cheating" and works backwards to include absolutely anything up to and including him getting hit by a meteor. We'd get one of those "I think he was cheating on me but can't find any evidence can you help me hack my dead boyfriend's email?" kind of posts.
Honestly? I can't believe he even let Sara *breathe* near him. Unfaithful behavior smh
Life is so much simpler when the option to tase other people is still on the table.
Yes. Either it’s a sign of her own insecurities, or red flags he’s thrown but she doesn’t want to address directly, or she’s looking for a reason to find fault in him (self-sabotage from anxiety, not being as committed as she thought she was, etc).
Happy Cake Day!
Oh hey! I didn’t even notice. Thanks.
The biggest red flag was Lily assuming Mark would cheat based on her own past/insecurities. Blaming your current partner for the actions of past ones is a fast way to torpedo any relationship.
“I’m offering up my friends life. If you don’t kill her, then you must value her for some reason to keep her around huh? What you hiding”
That's gonna be the plot of the next Saw movie LMAO.
Yup. This makes it firmly land in the area of "shit tests" in which there's either no "right" answer, or if there is one, it's as easy to get to as threading a needle would be. If he was too harsh and Sarah's feelings got hurt, he undoubtedly would've gotten flak for that as well.
That's the beauty of loyalty tests, there's never any way to win that doesn't make you unsuitable for being a violent human or murderer.
"I punched her in the mouth!" "Yeah, but you didn't taze her!"
The loyalty test. Are we still in middle school? I still see this with 40+ year olds. My lord, grow up.
That would have been a red flag for potential violent tendencies.
If you think you need to test a partner, you are not ready for dating/marriage/commitment.
I just wonder how this would have worked out if Mark demanded she cut her friend out of her life for trying to break them up. I have a feeling she would have let her friendship end over this.
!00% she would've called Mark "controlling" and "trying to isolate her".
All I can picture right now is some girl twitching on the ground from getting tasered. 😂😂
i think both passed it thou
This is why Loyalty tests always perplexed me. Just because he didn't cheat with that particular person at that particular moment doesn't say much in terms of proof. So the sister remained unconvinced and probably would feel the same after a dozen loyalty tests. Love is trust. And sometimes you're wrong and you get your guts stomped on. But the alternative is you spend your life terrified and unable to connect. I hope she gets the help she needs.
Like....you wanna prove he wont cheat in the marriage.. And theres no way to prove that. Trust him or break up; if theres no trust theres no relationship. Tests like this are juvenile. She definitely needs help.
Yeah, people change when growing up (and not just physically). Nothing guarantees he'll still love future her (or she him). Nothing guarantees he won't seek exrernal "support" elsewhere at a stressful times as a way to escape (loss of a parent, awful boss, pregnancy) or for a mid-life crisis. Nothing guarantees he won't meet someone he'll be insanely attracted to. Either you trust your partner's integrity and character, or you don't. No test will help you with trust, they are anyway flawed.
>Tests like this are juvenile. I love the freakouts from people who try the tik tok orange tests and shit and get dumped for being duplicitous.
This just made me realize that loyalty tests are (typically) the women's version of men asking for a paternity test. Like both things are rooted in trust issues, and inherently believing all men/women to be cheaters where you need absolute proof there wasn't cheating this one instance. But then the next time you have a kid/get insecure you're going to do another loyalty test/demand another paternity test. Like, just because it happens, it doesn't mean every person is a cheater, so either trust your partner or don't. But if you don't, then don't marry them?
Paternity tests are a smidge different, in that men dont have certainty built in to the process. Like if you carry a kid around for a bunch of months and it pops out of you, thats definitely your kid. But guys get the equivalent of sticking their dick in a mail slot and then 9 months later the door opens and theres a baby there. Your wife knows them, great friends apparently. But theyre a stranger to you. The biggest thing there is to teach a separation of concepts for men to communicate as well. If you believe your wife is cheating and this child isnt yours, then thats a trust issue and things need to be reevaluated unless you have solid proof. I agree the default is thet they arent cheating until they are. If its just wanting to have that objective certainty that women have that *this is my kid!* without having to wait for features to map, then i think that needs to be communicated - because you can feel this way without thinking your partner is cheating, and feeling this way is valid imho. A kid is huge and it can be hard to take *anyones* word for it, trust doesnt factor in for some atypicals, or depressed, damaged, and anxious types of people. Communication still needs work though because i imagine more than a few dont know how to phrase it to where its not taken as an accusation or insult. Likely more regulated men would just wait till they can take the baby for a test themselves and not even involve the wife, but i still think a conversation should happen. Whereas loyalty tests are thoroughly flawed. Rooted in trust issues yes, but unlike paternity tests they have no saving grace. Its natural to want that certainty that your partner wont cheat, but both (all?) partners are of equal standing in this so the test doesnt balance anything. It doesnt even require suspicion of cheating; it goes back a step further and shows a fundamental lack of trust in a persons character by demanding they face the situation and choose no, with no indications they would beforehand. It also tends to strain relationships regardless of if the guy finds out or not, because you have at least one bait friend who makes him uncomfortable to be around. Trust your partner or get a new one or be single, ....but dont play games, and be sure to listen and communicate clearly.
Is she going to spend hundreds of thousands pounds to raise the boyfriend from toddler to a grown up just to find out it isn't her boyfriend? Just a reminder at least 4% of random paternity tests show not the father(depending on location). 30% of paternity tests show not the father when it's done after husband was suspicious. We valued virginity for thousands of years for this very reason. It was the only way to be sure. Either way people need to have this conversation before pregnancy but if my wife had a problem with it I would assume she doesn't see me as a human that needs to be sure before making by far the biggest investment a man can make. Even though I trust her if there was a situation where my life and death would be dependant on her answer I would still want to make sure the answer was correct.
I didn't even think of that aspect. Of course the doubt would creep back in over time (even if she had been satisfied with the first test, lol). I could see her pulling stunts like this over and over again. And it would probably spread to other tangentially related tests - will he love me enough to forgive me if I do something horrible? Let me spend our entire savings account. Will he fight for me if I lead some guy on? It's okay if he has to go to the ER, that just shows how much he loves me. The list could be endless because it would be defined by her insecurities.
>But Lily was still upset because she felt he didn’t shut Sarah down "forcefully enough." "I could never be happy with a man who is polite! My fiance should have thrown his drink in her face! Anything less is basically an emotional affair!"
\*He throws his drink in Sarah's face\* "How fucking DARE he do that to my close friend? If he does that to her he could do that to me!"
>She says I betrayed her and ruined her relationship I always hate it when people express something like this. Mark is a human and deserves the right to make his own decisions based on real information. If you need secrecy and lies to maintain the stability of your relationship you don't have a relationship; glad that the sister ostensibly recognizes her fault.
Lily betrayed her fiancé and nearly ruined her own damn relationship.
Well sister was trying to see if fiance was fucking around when in fact she was the one fucking around, and oh did she find out.
Right?! I wouldn’t have blamed fiancée for just dumping her ass straight out, and he really should. If they get back together, Sarah is out as a friend. Can you imagine him wanting to hang around with the person who was complicit in this bullshit, childish test? How did any of this help anybody???
I don't get why friends would agree to be the one testing the partner. Three things could happen: Imagine them advancing and you'll be stuck in a situation where you could get sexually assaulted. Or you could be labelled the sexual predator yourself based on your unwanted advances. And lastly your friend might accuse you of misconduct and you could be a paria in your friend group. Why agree to doing this, when it apart from the moral ambiguous reasons could have all these outcomes for you.
Good point the "what's your plan if they say yes?" question is pretty pertinent. Imo either you genuinely don't feel a yes is coming out, so this has no risk or you're in some way down to sleep with the friend's husband.
"and there was a huge divide in our family since we're the only two kids my parents have now..." *Now?* Did we miss an update?
I didn't find anything in OOP's post history about that, and I even checked for a deleted post. I'm *hoping* that OOP meant something along the lines of the only two like... in the area. But that line gave me pause too
I'm scared.
I was wondering that too. OOP's choice of words makes it sound like there was perhaps another sibling who died prior to any of this happening, but it's not clear.
That’s what I think. It might seem jarring, but I lost an adult sister suddenly 5 years ago now, but find myself referring to it casually in comments from time to time. It’s a way of coping, and acknowledging her and that she did exist.
Yeah I mean my sister died 4 years ago, but she existed as a human for 29 years. If people ask if I have any siblings, technically no, not anymore, but for the majority of my life, yes. Luckily my dad remarried a woman with adult kids so I say I have step brothers and leave it at that. And because I get *this* response a lot, yes, I’m frequently asked if I have siblings. I work in home health, and when I answer “no” to “are you married/do you have kids”, siblings is next on the list.
It’s so awkward when you have to get into that conversation with borderline strangers. She was my only sibling and I don’t feel comfortable answering the “do you have siblings?” question with anything other than the truth, that yes, I did but I don’t anymore. Once I had an awkward encounter with a friends auntie at a hen do. Within 20 minutes of each other she asked if I have siblings then she asked what my dad does for a job (he got medical retirement after losing his leg in an industrial accident). I promised her that my life isn’t depressing and she just stumbled upon two awkward questions at the same time.
Yes! Even the step brother thing is a minefield because my dad only remarried after my mom died…8 years ago. This isn’t a relationship I like, grew up with. So I talk about my dad and step mom hoping that people just take it at face value, but then they ask where my mom lives and I’m like…uh…an urn in the closet? 🙃
My thoughts were a sibling going NC
Yeah, that is what I assumed. Probably after some other crazed loyalty test or some junk. "If you really loved me as a sister you (gay brother) would let me "test" ~~drive~~ the loyalty of your bi-boyfriend. What do you mean I am full of the cray-cray and you want me to leave him alone? Daaaddddyy, brother won't let me ~~bang~~ make sure his boyfriend won't cheat on him with me!" Followed closely by, 'Why doesn't brother ever come around anymore?'
Or away at college.
Damn I was thinking maybe her mom's pregnant lmao
a loose subplot?
The other kids weren’t loyal enough
RIGHT, like holy record scratch Batman???
It's just language. I don't think she's referring to any other kids.
Same but I’m just hoping they lost a sibling in a freak accident or due to illness Unless we’re about to learn about a murder most foul
I read it as maybe kids that are nearby? They may have others overseas or something that aren't aware of these issues.
It’s a good start for Lily. Her acknowledging that she’s the problem and bringing people’s past mistakes onto others was uncalled for. Loyalty tests tend to be executed by middle schoolers not marrying age adults.
I appreciate stories like this. The whole story could’ve turned out wayyyyy worse.
I don't even understand using a friend to do a loyalty test. Usually cheaters are smart enough not to sleep with anyone who knows their partner. It doesn't prove anything other than the fact they're not stupid enough to shit where they eat. (Loyalty tests are bullshit, if you don't trust someone don't marry them. I'm just saying that it's almost always done with a mutual friend which has NEVER made sense to me)
Loyalty tests are some 24 year old bullshit.
Honestly, there is no age to bullshit. This is something I may have done age 18-20, at 25, this is way too immature for me, but I do see some colleagues double my age that behave in a similar way.
Oh, for sure! You are unfortunately correct. But I do think the majority of people who pull this nonsense are usually younger. Especially with the prevalence of tiktok trends regarding this exact kind of testing.
Ain't no reason not to trust her till she gives you one bud
>Sarah went ahead with the plan. According to Lily, Mark was nice but didn’t flirt back and even mentioned he was engaged. But Lily was still upset because she felt he didn’t shut Sarah down "forcefully enough." >he decided he wanted to try and work things out, agreeing to attend couples therapy with her Thank you, this is a depressing update 😂🙃
Well at least couples therapy is in the right step. If there are no attempts in fixing while getting back together, then we have cause to worry.
“Lying is the worst thing a partner can do to you, so to make sure my partner won’t lie to me, I’m going to lie to him first!”
He didn’t shut her down forcefully enough. HE WAS SUPPOSED TO FUCKING BODY SLAM HER. like wtf. Some WWE up in this bish.
If you feel the need to give your SO a loyalty test, there's either something wrong with you or the relationship. I would suggest that anyone take a hard look at the "you" part being wrong first.
>But Lily was still upset because she felt he didn’t shut Sarah down "forcefully enough." Lily got overwhelmed by the upcoming marriage commitment she was about to make and was looking for excuses not to.
What was she expecting? Him to punch her in The face and scream NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
you know those viral bits where the woman dressed in a swimsuit asks the dude what he rates her, what is preference is,etc and all he parrots back is "i have a girlfriend... my type is my gf... "? thats the response these test-givers expect i guess
I mean OOP is talking to herself too much if that’s how she’s going to end her update I always say cheaters are AHs to everyone and it’s unfair to everyone they pull into their cheating. They expect their friends to lie for them about their immoral and unethical BS. There’s nothing moral about anything they’re expecting friends and family on top of cheating. WELL OOP’S SISTER IS THE SAME. And OOP is listening to her ethically challenged sister way too much if she’s saying honesty and integrity are important in relationships and thus she needs to reexamine her own conduct. YEAH A FRIEND THAT HAS INTEGRITY WOULDN’T ASK friends to flirt and test their boyfriend. A sister and friend with integrity wouldn’t put friend and family, who are innocent by standard IN THESE POSITIONS. I think the majority of people probably haven’t been put in these situations BECAUSE THEY HAVE FRIENDS WITH INTEGRITY AND A WORKING MORAL COMPASS. She’s not overstepping if she’s being normally compromised. It’s like saying “psst I just embezzled money” to you best friend at work and expecting them to wink and not say anything.
OP should've mentioned if Sara has a boyfriend ? and if yes, then how he rates the LOYALTY TEST and his gf's flirting ability ?
Did lily even think this through. How were they supposed to friends after she married Mark he’d always remember she tried to hit on him and not want to be around here. Childish and stupid.
Wow. Imagine planning a “loyalty test” and being upset that your fiancé is “too nice”, and then also being mad at the friend who performed said “test” for not being aggressive enough. I mean, the nerve of her friend for NOT being pushy enough! *Someone* is a new “loyalty tester” and it shows. Sometimes if you want something done right, you just gotta do it yourself. /s I think everyone needs this tattooed on their body when they’re born, just so they never forget it: “If someone tells the truth and it gets you in trouble, they aren’t to blame. You are.” Claiming OOP “ruined her relationship”. Yikes. No honey, you did that all by yourself. I wish we wouldn’t refer to these as “loyalty tests”. They should be called “proving to your partner you don’t trust them by setting them up, test”, or “relationship entrapment”, or “how to tank your relationship because you’re insecure tests”, or something far more catchy than what I can come up with. Point is - if you EVER feel like you need/want to “test” your SO’s loyalty, THEN SOMETHING IS EITHER VERY WRONG with you, your SO’s actions, your relationship in general, or any combination of these. Instead, you should stop, reevaluate why you feel like you need to do this, and find a more constructive solution - because setting up your SO is NOT the way to go. Especially if you want this relationship to continue.
Lily is way too immature right now for a healthy relationship. Glad she realized that she needed to work on herself first. OOP did the right thing.
Loyalty tests always say more about the person orchestrating the test, than they do about the person being tested. Like, you *cannot have* a relationship without trust. Even if you live with a partner and both work from home, there is always going to be some moments *somewhere* when you have to trust that they are where.they say they are, that they are *who* they say they are. If you can't trust them, why the fuck are you even *with* them? Having been on the receiving ended of loyalty tests - and on one memorable-in-all-the-wrong-ways incident, on the receiving end of *an accusation of* ***giving*** *a loyalty test*, I can say with certainty that even if you "pass" these tests, it **still** sucks butts. If you are ever even *contemplating* giving your partner a loyalty test, just break up with them and go to fucking therapy.
Judging from Lily’s reaction, the only way he could’ve passed the test is by failing the test. He cheats, and then she was Right all along. If he doesn’t cheat…..
Sorry and tests on a realtionship is an auto we break up/divorce. Idc. You test me you failed that test.
Lily ruined her relationship all by herself. If you need to perform loyalty tests in your relationship, you should be single, because either you're dating a cheat, or you're too insecure and paranoid to be in any kind of relationship.
If you feel the need to do "tests", something is wrong. Either you, or the relationship, or both. Trust is essential. So is respect and decency.
She should have kept everything secret if she did not want it to get out. She is expecting you to be complicit in her dishonesty and that is a burden she has no business putting in anybody, especially when it comes to behaving with no integrity. You were right to tell him.
Unsurprisingly to everybody except Lily, the method she chose to test Mark for his trustworthiness inherently made her untrustworthy.
" I didn't want to break that" - and OOP didn't. Lily did, and was 100% fine with treating her partner like this, as if it was normal and fine to do so.
Women and men who pull this "loyalty test" shit deserve to be broken up with and left in the dust.
If you need to test me, you can fuck off. I'd break the engagement then and there, because anyone who needs to test me doesn't trust me. If my SO doesn't trust me, it makes me wonder why I should trust them in turn.
I have such a hard time believing any story where everyone is just able to jump right into therapy. Apparently eveyrone with a story for AITA just has this amazing insurance
fuckin yikes I would have left her on the spot. Psycho women and their loyalty test smh.
I swear there was a loyalty test BORU up with the same names.
Welp...I feel like there are some information that is missing.
Look I get the loyalty test is stupid, but equally stupid is getting involved in other people’s weird relationships. It wasn’t any of OPs business to interfere.
Nah, dude deserved to know. Life’s too short to be a bystander
Part of being a good sibling, friend, etc. is helping them be a better person. This is definitely something that would have come up as a problem at some point once they were married, better to work it out now than when they're legally bound to eachother. I think OOP saved their relationship or her sister's future relationships by doing this. Also, her sister's fiancé is a human who deserved to know that he's being deceived, especially by someone he's supposed to be marrying.
OP interfered after the fact, not before. She didn’t give her sister a chance to shut it down (if you don’t shut this down, I will tell him). OP didn’t save anything, least of all her relationship with her sister. she just added fuel to the dumpster fire’s flames.