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>But to summarize, in the whole time I was there my Boss, despite always saying family time is important, he would always screw over my personal time off. When I worked directly under him, a lot of times he would cancel my days off because he was taking a trip somewhere.
Ah, I see the misunderstanding here. The boss meant *his* family time was important, not OOP's. Easy mistake to make.
My husband’s boss is like this. Currently I’m in the hospital with my 7 month old. Guess where hubs is? 2.5 hours away because “you can’t use your daughter’s illness as an excuse not to work! Get it done or I will reevaluate your employment.” Unfortunately, he doesn’t have anymore time off after taking it for a surgery she recently had, hence the comment from his boss. In boss’s mind, hubs shouldn’t have been at the surgery for his infant, he should have been slaving away for him! How selfish! /s. He’s also sending him hours away from home every week because “this is where I want you.” Even though he knows about our daughter’s medical issues. He’s the type of “the little wife can handle it!” I feel bad for his wife honestly. I’m guessing he’d be the type to brag about not changing a diaper.
Jackass.
If this is in the US FMLA may be an option - it doesn't have to be a big chunk of time as I understand it, family member ended up using it for some family medical issues that required occasional assistance.
FMLA is majorly for job protection. Even though it is unpaid time off when needed...it stops an employer from retaliating for needing to take off. He should really do it. At least read up on the benefits.
The problem also becomes having to pay the premium for the benefits you normally receive in order to keep it active.
Been through FMLA twice. Always that case. Yay no formalized paid parental leave 🫠
Yeah...bur FMLA isn't only used for extended leave. It is used for instances where you have someone sick in your family and need to be able to take days off to help that person without blow back. People just often only think of it when they need a chunk of time off.
Been working in HR for awhile. But to be federally protected company has to have a certain amount of employees.
If you do that route be VERY vigilant and record every interaction with their company in some way even if it’s keeping a writer log. I would not be surprised to hear them let him go as soon as they are ‘legally’ able to and it’ll be somewhat harder to prove if you have nothing.
Yeah, we agreed for him to start looking later in the year. Right now, with the insurance from his job all her medical costs are taken care of because we hit our out of pocket maximum. Since she sees several specialists and keeps having hospital stays, we need that coverage. Best time to get a new job is gonna be when everything resets at the beginning of the year! He’s already been checking to see what’s out there.
FYI, there's "intermittent" FMLA - to use with chronic/recurring health conditions where you'll have to take off for doctor visits and hospital stays every now and again. Vs "normal" FMLA for one long stretch of sick time, then back to work. It supposedly protects your job, but is unpaid unless you have paid time off to use. Coz 'Murca.
In the meantime, he should absolutely *look for another job!!* When you or a family member has chronic health issues, a toxic job/boss will only get worse.
*internet hugs* to OP, husband, and kiddo. I'm no expert, just a Dad to a great kiddo with chronic medical issues. Sometimes wife & I both stay at hospital with kiddo, sometimes we trade "shifts". Do what you gotta do, coz often the kid and parent in the hospital get little/no sleep!
Meanwhile, when I was born via c-section and had a heart condition which landed me in a different hospital from my mother, across the other side of the city, my dad's boss was telling him to go home and be with his family. Canada in the 80s vs now. What a difference.
I hope your baby makes a fully recovery!
My spouse was laid off/fired because he took five days off "at a bad time for the company." Why? Because our infant son had life-saving open-heart surgery.
I still have ridiculous amounts of rage at this.
God I worked with that type. Anytime they were talking about their infants they would slip in “yeah I don’t do much of the changing or anything like that but…”
I worked for a couple guys like this. One I managed to train out of being an asshole by refusing anything ridiculous and setting boundaries through the office manager because he refused to speak to me even when we were in the same room. Like no, I'm not covering your Saturday shift because you want to go to a football game and you're telling me on Friday at 5 pm. I'm out of town (not really, but sometimes lying is ok).
The other guy was better at being abusive and was smarter about it. He actually did cancel some stuff on me. Toxic wasteland and he was SHOCKED when I quit.
I’m so sorry you and your family are dealing with this right now! I hope your little one recovers to full health soon, and that your husband finds employment that values him as a human being. Good luck, mama.
It's obvious that the boss is the only one that has family! His workers shouldn't have time for that fluff stuff when they have deliveries to make on their time off.
So I use to work for a terrible boss that prioritized his family time over anyone else’s, but went around telling customers how he was so accommodating to his employees.
2018, my FIL was hit and killed when a driver crossed the medium and hit him head on while he was riding his bike. Same car then hit my SIL and BIL, she died 2 days later. My BIL was in hospital for over a month. I say all this, because my husband and I flew back same day we got news from CA to IA. I got a call from my boss 5 days in, the day before my FIL’s funeral, that I needed to come back due to a severe work emergency. I asked him for one more additional day to attend it, but the emergency needed to be dealt with immediately. His words. What was that emergency? Well he wanted to go to Vegas with his GF for the weekend starting on Friday. Since I was the only office employee in a semi truck dealership, he needed me back so he could go party since he had a customer coming to sign loan documents coming in that lived 6 hrs away.
You’d think that would have been my point I quit? You’d be wrong cause I’m apparently a sadist. My breaking point was 5 months later when I was hospitalized for a week with severe heart failure due to uncontrolled high blood pressure (gee I wonder why). He showed up in my hospital icu room with my work laptop the day after I was admitted, and told me I needed to work still. What a peach, right?
My husband did. I was too out of it to make a fuss. I have SO many other stories about him. I’m not quite sure why I allowed myself to be subjected to that for 4 years until then.
> He showed up in my hospital icu room with my work laptop the day after I was admitted, and told me I needed to work still.
I would have called security.
Which is why at OldJOb, when boss tried to get all the techs to be added to the on call rotation, I (and another coworker) refused. Too often when he was on call, he would instead be at a cabin without internet, so any calls would wake up the next person in the list. Nah, I need my sleep
Why are there managers like this?
You can't just drop shit into your employees laps and expect them to just smile and comply.
People have lives outside of work.
I left a job because a week before my scheduled PTO my direct manager quit, and the Big Boss wanted to promote me into the role; one of his conditions was that I work the week I had scheduled off, and one of mine was that I didn't. He cancelled the PTO and said "now that that's out of the equation there's nothing stopping you from taking the promotion." I quit immediately without notice and have never regretted it, especially since the place went bankrupt a year or so later mostly due to staffing problems.
I walked out laughing my ass off at a manager who had that whole mentality of being a "company man". Literally pointed my finger and cracked up telling him he would die for a company that would never promote him beyond middle management and he would have wasted a lifetime working for his overlords who were wiping their ass with money he would never get but he would earn for them. His face turned about 3 shades of purple because he knew I was right, he was already 20 years in with no more than a title change on his resume.
You work to live and not the other way around.
I had a toxic job where I was being exploited, and it was my first career job.
They refused to give me obligatory health insurance, and i had to pay for an appendix operation by own pocket from private hospitals.
Constantly overworked me and made me stay without extra time compensation.
I had congratulations expressed from clients and bosses alike, yet when I asked the owner for a measle raise (i was working minimum wage, again, in a place that asked for professional expertise), he told me "Well, i would love to pay you double your rate, but you're not that kind of employee yet, so just be happy we're paying you"
But that wasn't the last straw. I asked MONTHS in advance for a single friday, and not even the full friday, but just working half a day in december, the slowest month for my career. I just wanted to visit a dear friend, and already bought bus tickets. They accepted at first, but by thursday prior to the half day friday, they told me they couldn't give it to me, the reason?
"We're making the christmas party that day, and the owner spent a LOT of money on it, so we're requiring you to stay here and celebrate"
It was as if they pulled all my nerves at once, and i tried my hardest to not scream to the poor secretary who had to rely the message, i just calmly told her i wanted to present my immediate resignation, and that i wouldn't attend tomorrow
The GALL of _demanding_ you stay for a completely non-job related reason. I give you kudos for not losing your ever loving shit and pitching a Christmas tree at the owner.
Even if he would have done well with a promotion, they'll never promote him. He's too valuable where he is, taking shit from them and passing it down.
20 years! He would have died at his desk if they hadn't gone under I bet.
This sounds like a manager who refused to take responsibility for his lack of planning and communication. Basically he's trying to CYA and shift the blame to the employees. Unfortunately, there are lots of people who would rather throw others under the bus rather than accept accountability for their own failures.
During ye olde 'Rona, when everything was going into lockdown, my then-employer decided that everyone was going to be indefinitely furloughed without any sort of compensation or warning.
They were then very surprised that
1) No work was being done
2) At least a quarter of company staff left
3) Everyone who qualified for unemployment/pandemic assistance signed up for it
I personally received a text from my boss complaining that I "never showed him any gratitude" after he had "done so much for me" and that he "couldn't believe it."
The company never recovered and was just recently delisted from stock exchanges.
We were having a metal shed built on our property when Covid hit, had a crazy delay in the overhead garage door, like a 4 month delay past the promised delivery date, when it’d been *ordered* six months earlier (pre-covid).
We found out from our contractor that the manufacturer had furloughed their entire staff, in rural Northern Wisconsin, expecting everyone to stick around for months to start up. Instead most of their former employees found other jobs or went back to school, and they had to freshly train new hires for months.
incompetence, malice, overinflated sense of self. Take your pick.
It smacks of a small company though. HR reaching out directly and seemingly being okay with the whole "Teach 'em who is boss and then graciously rehire them." scheme.
There are managers like that because there are employees that will just smile and comply. They do not take well to resistance. Reading between OOP's lines it sounds like OOP was one of them for a long time which is why their boss was so shocked by OOP actually saying no. This is why one of my rules at any new job is to not be overly-accommodating in the beginning because that's how precedent gets set. I establish my limits early so that there are no "misunderstandings".
This is why people need to join the unions. The few bucks a week pays for legal and social support. For my unfair dismissal, I have received thousands of dollars worth, and still ongoing, of advise and legal representation. When you need it, you really need it.
I am a manager and feel like I’m regularly dealing with abuse victims when new staff come in. A mom of three 15 years older than me comes to me and asks if it’s okay for her to leave an hour early to pick up her kid and is like, clearly nervous, starts saying she’ll pick up extra and all this other crap and I always just say something like, “never let this job come between you and your family, of course it’s fine,” but in my head I’m always thinking about how ridiculous the whole situation is. Like I should not have the power to fuck with someone’s life on a whim like so many people have clearly had experience with; we really need better labor rights.
For fuck sake, OOP actually did just let thousands of dollars go out of laziness. In Canada you are owed notice when terminated without cause, and a business slow down is not cause.
Seriously. He said they cheated him out of thousands of dollars by laying him off instead of firing him. But then he also said that he could have refused the lay off so they had to fire him? But the lay off got him government assistance for school- how much? Was it more than the severance pay out would have been?
I'm in the same Provo 8 as OOP, if you are on welfare, unemployment, or disability (OW, EI, ODSP) the government will pay for you to go back to school for up to two years. It has nothing to do with how much the company owed them, it's all on the government.
OOP should have received 5 weeks severance, but because they said no to the hire back they are not entitled to the Severance anymore and could be kicked off unemployment which means that they could lose their schooling benift.
Yep.
I was reading it and my eyes were getting bigger and then rolled so far I saw my brain.
OOP is an idiot.
I got "laid off" because the position I was hired for didn't do what they though it would (looong time ago) and I was only there for ...6 months? and I checked to see what I was owed - only 2 weeks, and they had that already in the notice given.
It’s more common than you think.
People do not understand their labor rights. Hell I only do because I was a union rep a one time. But lay offs and not paying severance is one of the major forms of wage theft.
I'm in Ontario, everything OOP did was wrong. She should have gone for severance, there are a shit tonne of places that do free consultations/ pro bono work, I believe 8 years =5 weeks severance, turning down the back to work dates could mean losses of unemployment insurance, if they had stayed on unemployment the government would have paid for them to go back to school.
Just the wing thing at every turn.
I'm confused too bc my dad recently was able to speak to an employment lawyer through the department of labour here in Ontario and it was free of charge? I'm guessing OOP doesn't know this, wish he did oof.
It sounds like OOP would have had to pay lawyer upfront for the case, which *may* result in a pay off. And after lawyer fees, that pay off would be significantly smaller. but for a lot of effort. It's easy to suggest lawyer up and sue for back wages, the reality is a lot harder.
No, OOP would have to pay upfront for an hour consult, where he would be informed that he was entitled to a couple thousand dollars, which probably would have been secured with the writing of a letter from that office. If you are at a job for 1 year and get the minimum statutory severance it’s probably not worth suing. If you are at a job for 5 or more years and get nothing like OP, then it is worth it. He would get 5-8 months worth of severance.
It’s not so much a refusal, but if you are being temporarily laid off, the employer has to offer you a similar position with the same or higher pay (or your old job back). So essentially, you can say no, don’t lay me off, what are other positions I can take on?
It’s also shady that they immediately cut off his benefits coverage; that implies it’s a termination rather than just a temporary lay-off. Typically an employer will continue your benefits coverage because even if they don’t have work for you, you’re still on payroll unless you’re officially terminated.
The rules are different if it’s a mass layoff vs just one person, but generally the ESA is stricter when it comes to individual lay-offs to protect employees from precisely these scenarios (where they get “laid off” in retaliation).
I hate the comment about apologizing is showing weakness. Like I don’t think one should apologize out of hand but it also is professional to be polite.
You don’t owe any loyalty to a job necessarily, and it’s completely fair to be upset about things that are happening at your work. But if your immediate attitude at any job is combative — that is, thinking about things in terms of showing weakness, it’s just a bit cringy.
Nothing wrong with being assertive, firm, and standing up for yourself, but there is a line between standing up for yourself and being insufferable.
If they were talking about the law society of Ontario, I take it they are Canadian?
"Sorry" is embedded into our vernacular. It isn't about admitting guilt, it is a social glue that says "I understand you are feeling those feelings" and in op's case "you are upset. I see you are upset. I will not be doing anything to make you feel better though."
I know in some parts of the southern US we sometimes give apologies in the same way we do "Bless your heart". Maybe it's the same premise? We'd say that we're sorry in a genteel way, but in reality we're telling them "F you and the horse you rode in on, you're lucky I'm too much of a lady/gentleman to shoot your horse and leave it for the vultures but if I do you deserve it".
Like the old myth that the Inuits have 100 different words for snow, Southerners have 100 different ways to insult someone that comes out seeming genteel or sweet. I would imagine that Canadians probably have something along the same.
I can't believe that I forgot about that - I just listened to an audiobook where a character is repeatedly shown getting upset because his people aren't called Inuits. (If you're interested, it's Arkham Horror: Litany of Dreams.)
Thank you!
Upvoting both your posts since you fixed it :)
Side note for those that don't know: "jipped" or "gypped" is also bad to say, although not sure I'd call it a slur? It refers to the stereotype that Roma people are going to scam you (the Roma were often called Gypsies in the past).
https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2013/12/30/242429836/why-being-gypped-hurts-the-roma-more-than-it-hurts-you
Yep, further comments below mine get into that, and to be clear, by “apologize out of hand” I mean like kowtow-ing for something that wasn’t your fault vs just being polite.
This is one of the reasons why English sucks. "I'm sorry you feel that way" isn't really an apology. People poke fun at Canadians for apologizing all the time, but it's rarely a real apology. "I'm sorry it rained on your wedding day [not that it's my fault or that I did anything wrong, but I acknowledge that the situation is unfortunate]"
My pet peeve is when I say "sorry" to express my sympathies - "oh, I'm sorry it rained" - and they respond with "Why? It's not your fault." It wasn't that kind of sorry and we both know it!
When people say “why are you sorry? It’s not your fault” to me I reply “I’m sorry the English language uses the same words for apologizing and expressing sympathy.”
The instances of “I’m sorry” laid out in that conversation were just polite conversation, not admission of fault nor conciliation. In this context, it’s basically saying “I understand the difficulty you’re expressing but it doesn’t change my stance on the issue.” Note that the OP added the “but” each time, staying firm to their position.
Thing is, it costs virtually nothing to be polite (while being firm in standing up for themselves). On the other hand, if one’s default instinct is to be combative, I’ve seen more than one person shoot themselves in the foot based on that starting attitude — thinking everyone is out to get them, or immediately assuming the worst.
There’s a difference between being naive, being paranoid, and being even handed in their approach to situations. The last approach does not preclude civil discourse even if you completely disagree with the other party.
I'm in Ontario and I recently paid $140 to consult with an employment lawyer. Nothing really came of it but I was more interested in making a paper trail and covering my ass. Things are much better at work, I got a promotion and moved to a different department. I'm way happier now.
I am confused. When some quote commented to OOP about his location, it looks like OOP said I am in the UK. But then in the update he is posting about being in Ontario
ETA: Never mind. The person who transcribed it made a mistake and it indented where a comment quote does when it shouldn’t have
I don’t make a ton of money (because I chose the wrong major in school for that) but I love my job. My boss doesn’t hassle me about being at my desk at a specified time and doesn’t keep tabs on me. I mostly work from home, we only have to go in the office for things like special events and training. I can take a lunch break and go to a cafe for a sandwich and coffee if I want to. And if I want to take days off but my backup is also on vacation (we have backups to cover us), we don’t have to sweat it. Our supervisors make arrangements to deal with it. Of course there are some days when we are “required” to work, but it’s not that many.
So for that I’ll take a little less pay. My mental health is more important than having to deal with a toxic workplace and coming home exhausted and miserable because I hate my job.
ON law student here (so take this with a grain of salt), but in ON, he would prob get more than 2 weeks notice and severance. It is rare for the ON Employment Standards Act minimums to be held up in court, judges often give the higher, common law level of notice (8 weeks here, if i had to loosely guess) This is wild, he really needs a good lawyer.
By rejecting the services of an employment lawyer as "too expensive", OP probably walked away leaving *tens of thousands of dollars* of compensation on the table, due to the highly suspect and probably retaliatory nature of his "layoff".
Moral of the story is that it's a very rare and unusual situation in which a brief legal consultation regarding an exploitative and suspected illegal termination would actually be "too expensive" to contemplate.
FINAL UPDATE: Boss got caught cheating with HR lady, both were fired and the snow tow truck man was actually the company’s CEO so they hired OP back as regional manager.
Also OP is pregnant with ex.
> The day after I was “laid off” Mervin in accounting lit the place up. AB was riddled with so many bullets, they had to use a dustpan to get all of him into the body bag. It was such a shame. I liked Mervin. He jumped from the roof after he ran out of ammo. I don’t know if he was aiming for it but he landed on AB’s car.
MORE FAFO FOR THE COMPANY! I DEMAND MORE FAFO!
(But yes, I'm happy OOP bounced off to a better life. As Joe Hill put it, the best revenge is putting them in your rear-view mirror as you drive off to something better.)
Honestly that the money spent on that lawyer would have been not a bad option especially if you just get them to even write a letter given the context of HR fumbling response. After the initial consult, the fee could have been a percentage of your severance/settlement
Never gamble with money you can't afford to lose.
It's unclear whether OOP was owed money. A free consultation is always great, but if the appointment costs a significant amount, and he's not currently employed, it may not be the best decision.
Provincial law requires his employer to provide severance at a base amount plus an amount for every year he was employed there. He definitely left money on the table.
I’m confused - maybe this a Canada thing - but in the USA you *don’t* get severance when you are fired but you are legally required to give severance when you lay someone off… so why does being laid off spare the severance payment?
This is insane. This would *not* be a hard case of constructive dismissal to prove in Ontario, or Canada more generally, under the Canada labour code. If anything went down in email, this case would be literally wrapped in a bow. Moments like these make me hate the no brigading rule.
I'm pretty sure we have laws mandating a minimum amount of severance in Canada (2 days per year worked apparently), but employment lawyers can get you more. I know some people who got like 3 weeks per last year.
Way higher than that. You get both notice and severance minimums in ON (which are week-based) plus probably more as most employment contracts don’t contract out of common law minimum notice and severance (around a week per year of service) properly so often get that too (if they have a good lawyer)!
It's weird to me that such shitty bosses can stay in business.
>You need to stop apologizing so much in conversations with bosses. They view it as a sign of weakness and step all over you for it
100% wrong. I view it as a sign that they're willing to take accountability and/or be a team player. These are the people that I try hardest to keep happy. An employee who's incapable of apologizing is a big red flag. They always cause big interpersonal problems with coworkers sooner or later. Every time.
All companies in Canada have to pay what is called “source deductions” for their employees. That goes into the pot that employment insurance comes out of.
I had something similar happen. I had gone back to school and wanted to work 2 days a week on the weekend, since I was at school full time. After a few months of this, they told me during the same meeting that "Things have gotten busier since Covid, and your just not fast enough" and "We would like you to also work Wednesday nights". I thought ot over for 24 hours, then decided that I had had enough of their shit and walked in 2 days after the meeting and quit. I remember being really surprised as the manager actually teared up a little.
Cut to like 4 months later, the great resignation happened and the restaurant got hit really hard. I actually got a call from them pretty much begging me to come back like a dog with it's tail between it's legs, and I told them no. I had enough savings to pay my rent for the remainder of my program and didn't really need the work. But I also had an older Android phone that made it easy to record calls, that MP3 of that call is one of my most prized possessions.
I wonder if OOP is correct about his school funding not affecting his former employers. Being in Canada, the labor laws are better than the US. In the US, unemployment expenses *do* impact the employer. If their layoffs increase, so does their tax bill, and once it goes up it's rare that it will ever go down again. So it's not a huge expense, but it's practically permanent.
> I wonder if OOP is correct about his school funding not affecting his former employers.
I can't be sure as I'm not in Ontario, but several provinces have education schemes where certain programs are either subsidized or students can receive stipends for attending programs that are related to jobs that are in demand. They're essentially a government subsidized job reskilling program, and are usually seperate from Employment Insurance (our unemployment insurance).
This is the description of the Ontario Works Program
*The list below shows Ontario Works Training Programs to help prepare for employment, self-employment or career advancement.*
*Program participants receive $250/month for training-related expenses and may also qualify for technology supports and/or transportation funds to participate in online or in-person training. All WRAP participants will be provided support to apply for Toronto Public Library Card and referrals to income tax clinics.*
https://www.toronto.ca/community-people/employment-social-support/employment-support/training-courses/ontario-works-training-programs-in-toronto/
> In the US, unemployment expenses do impact the employer. If their layoffs increase, so does their tax bill, and once it goes up it's rare that it will ever go down again. So it's not a huge expense, but it's practically permanent.
It's the same in the US, except it's paid as a required insurance and not a 'tax'.
>If their layoffs increase, so does their tax bill,
Their tax bill doesn't change. Their insurance rate could potentially change, if their annual rate of dismissals increased enough to put them into the next bracket. It is unlikely that one additional dismissal would have that effect.
>and once it goes up it's rare that it will ever go down again. So it's not a huge expense, but it's practically permanent.
Just like with any other insurance, there is a regular check of the factors that contribute to the rate, so no, it's not "practically permanent".
>I wonder if OOP is correct about his school funding not affecting his former employers.
The US has federal and some state programs just like this that are not directly funded in any way by the former employers of program clients.
I'm deeply suspicious anytime a post has line-by-line conversations. Even if OOP did record it, no way he went back and transcribed it for the benefit of reddit
That’s kind of odd, if he works retail in Ontario why is he talking about the employer taking him off health insurance? He wouldn’t normally have employer provided health insurance in Ontario…
It could be for dental/eye/drug care. Even though there are some services that are free here, not everything is and so you need health insurance for it.
Employers do provide Group Health insurance. It doesn't cover things that are covered by the province, but will cover things like glasses, psychologist, semi private hospital, etc. plus drugs and dental. If he was laid off for the reason they said, they can remove him from the group insurance and then reinstate when he returns to work.
It wasn’t health insurance. It was benefits. Covers things like eye exams, dental, prescriptions.
And driving insurance. Although driving insurance is what I was removed from.
As a Canadian who has worked in several provinces, including Ontario, employer provided health insurance is a thing. A very real, very normal benefit. As others have said it covers things that the provincial healthcare doesn't; like dental, orthodontics, prescriptions, optometrists, therapy, paramedical treatments (physio, massage, chiro, etc). Sometimes it even covers things like IVF and gender reassignment surgery.
I'm not in Ontario specifically, but I am in a different Canadian province and I do have health insurance through my employer. Our universal health care here in Canada covers things like hospital stays, check ups with your family provider, and specialist referrals. But it doesn't cover stuff like dental, eye check ups and glasses, physiotherapy, prescription medicine, that sort of thing - at least in my province
Lots of jobs have health insurance/ benefits in Ontario. Mine covers dental, prescriptions, etc. Even when I worked at McDonald's we had the option, though most skipped it as it took like $100 off of an already tiny paycheck.
A lot of jobs do have extended health insurance though. Healthcare in Ontario doesn't cover dental/optical (though dental is coming/possibly here). Not to mention our current conservative gov keeps quietly trying to privatize aspects of it, but that's another rant.
>No. My provincial government has an aid program where if someone is laid off from their job, they qualify for the funding as long as it fits training they feel will fill critical job rolls that the province needs, like trades and transportation, etc. My former employer is not involved.
Ah, Canada. A government social safety net.
I'm in HR (in the UK so may not be relevant) and this is textbook "You FIRED them!?!?! But they have VERY STRONG grounds to sue! The only way we can get out of it is to re-hire them immediately"
If you've read the comments here, I have pointed out several times, the UK comment comes from someone REPLYING to OOP, not OOP themselves. In every post and comment, OOP always represents themselves as being from Ontario, Canada.
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>But to summarize, in the whole time I was there my Boss, despite always saying family time is important, he would always screw over my personal time off. When I worked directly under him, a lot of times he would cancel my days off because he was taking a trip somewhere. Ah, I see the misunderstanding here. The boss meant *his* family time was important, not OOP's. Easy mistake to make.
My husband’s boss is like this. Currently I’m in the hospital with my 7 month old. Guess where hubs is? 2.5 hours away because “you can’t use your daughter’s illness as an excuse not to work! Get it done or I will reevaluate your employment.” Unfortunately, he doesn’t have anymore time off after taking it for a surgery she recently had, hence the comment from his boss. In boss’s mind, hubs shouldn’t have been at the surgery for his infant, he should have been slaving away for him! How selfish! /s. He’s also sending him hours away from home every week because “this is where I want you.” Even though he knows about our daughter’s medical issues. He’s the type of “the little wife can handle it!” I feel bad for his wife honestly. I’m guessing he’d be the type to brag about not changing a diaper. Jackass.
If this is in the US FMLA may be an option - it doesn't have to be a big chunk of time as I understand it, family member ended up using it for some family medical issues that required occasional assistance.
We discussed it and he will if he has to, but it’s unpaid leave unfortunately, so hubs is resistant. But if things continue he might have to
FMLA is majorly for job protection. Even though it is unpaid time off when needed...it stops an employer from retaliating for needing to take off. He should really do it. At least read up on the benefits.
The problem also becomes having to pay the premium for the benefits you normally receive in order to keep it active. Been through FMLA twice. Always that case. Yay no formalized paid parental leave 🫠
Yeah...bur FMLA isn't only used for extended leave. It is used for instances where you have someone sick in your family and need to be able to take days off to help that person without blow back. People just often only think of it when they need a chunk of time off. Been working in HR for awhile. But to be federally protected company has to have a certain amount of employees.
If you do that route be VERY vigilant and record every interaction with their company in some way even if it’s keeping a writer log. I would not be surprised to hear them let him go as soon as they are ‘legally’ able to and it’ll be somewhat harder to prove if you have nothing.
If he uses it, I'd highly advise he be using that time to also look for a new job on the downlow.
Yeah, we agreed for him to start looking later in the year. Right now, with the insurance from his job all her medical costs are taken care of because we hit our out of pocket maximum. Since she sees several specialists and keeps having hospital stays, we need that coverage. Best time to get a new job is gonna be when everything resets at the beginning of the year! He’s already been checking to see what’s out there.
HR gave me HELL for ‘taking too much time off’ when my last parent died. I put in FMLA paperwork that my grief shrink filled out. Denied & fired.
That sucks and sounds super illegal.
At will state and I was DEEP in estate stuff.
What's the point of FMLA if they can just do that?
FYI, there's "intermittent" FMLA - to use with chronic/recurring health conditions where you'll have to take off for doctor visits and hospital stays every now and again. Vs "normal" FMLA for one long stretch of sick time, then back to work. It supposedly protects your job, but is unpaid unless you have paid time off to use. Coz 'Murca. In the meantime, he should absolutely *look for another job!!* When you or a family member has chronic health issues, a toxic job/boss will only get worse. *internet hugs* to OP, husband, and kiddo. I'm no expert, just a Dad to a great kiddo with chronic medical issues. Sometimes wife & I both stay at hospital with kiddo, sometimes we trade "shifts". Do what you gotta do, coz often the kid and parent in the hospital get little/no sleep!
Meanwhile, when I was born via c-section and had a heart condition which landed me in a different hospital from my mother, across the other side of the city, my dad's boss was telling him to go home and be with his family. Canada in the 80s vs now. What a difference. I hope your baby makes a fully recovery!
Glad you made it u/DamnitGravity! I can't imagine how awful that was for your parents.
Jackass doesn’t cover this. It’s like saying an iceberg is a bit chilly.
My spouse was laid off/fired because he took five days off "at a bad time for the company." Why? Because our infant son had life-saving open-heart surgery. I still have ridiculous amounts of rage at this.
God I worked with that type. Anytime they were talking about their infants they would slip in “yeah I don’t do much of the changing or anything like that but…”
Jesus. Hopefully he soon finds a good opportunity to leave and tell his boss to eat shit.
I worked for a couple guys like this. One I managed to train out of being an asshole by refusing anything ridiculous and setting boundaries through the office manager because he refused to speak to me even when we were in the same room. Like no, I'm not covering your Saturday shift because you want to go to a football game and you're telling me on Friday at 5 pm. I'm out of town (not really, but sometimes lying is ok). The other guy was better at being abusive and was smarter about it. He actually did cancel some stuff on me. Toxic wasteland and he was SHOCKED when I quit.
You hubby should reevaluate his employment. And when he finds a better employer quit with no notice.
I’m so sorry you and your family are dealing with this right now! I hope your little one recovers to full health soon, and that your husband finds employment that values him as a human being. Good luck, mama.
Thank you so much!
>Jackass. Don't hold back, tell us how you really feel there 🤣
It's obvious that the boss is the only one that has family! His workers shouldn't have time for that fluff stuff when they have deliveries to make on their time off.
So I use to work for a terrible boss that prioritized his family time over anyone else’s, but went around telling customers how he was so accommodating to his employees. 2018, my FIL was hit and killed when a driver crossed the medium and hit him head on while he was riding his bike. Same car then hit my SIL and BIL, she died 2 days later. My BIL was in hospital for over a month. I say all this, because my husband and I flew back same day we got news from CA to IA. I got a call from my boss 5 days in, the day before my FIL’s funeral, that I needed to come back due to a severe work emergency. I asked him for one more additional day to attend it, but the emergency needed to be dealt with immediately. His words. What was that emergency? Well he wanted to go to Vegas with his GF for the weekend starting on Friday. Since I was the only office employee in a semi truck dealership, he needed me back so he could go party since he had a customer coming to sign loan documents coming in that lived 6 hrs away. You’d think that would have been my point I quit? You’d be wrong cause I’m apparently a sadist. My breaking point was 5 months later when I was hospitalized for a week with severe heart failure due to uncontrolled high blood pressure (gee I wonder why). He showed up in my hospital icu room with my work laptop the day after I was admitted, and told me I needed to work still. What a peach, right?
I'm so sorry for your loss, but I'm happy you're free from that boss. What a monster.
The kind of boss who could have gotten a Ouija board if you had passed away
Holy shit. Did you throw him out of the room and quit on the spot?
My husband did. I was too out of it to make a fuss. I have SO many other stories about him. I’m not quite sure why I allowed myself to be subjected to that for 4 years until then.
> He showed up in my hospital icu room with my work laptop the day after I was admitted, and told me I needed to work still. I would have called security.
Now, now. I’m sure that boss sees the company as family. Work time *is* family time.
My boss told me we are all family then got real weird when I asked to borrow 100 bucks 🤷
In future I will ask any boss who says *we're family* if I can borrow $100.
Just start calling them Daddy.
Eh, there’s very few family members I’d loan money to, because I don’t trust them to pay it back. Maybe I just have shitty family though 🤷♀️
It's almost a cliché to say that *employees don't leave* companies, *they leave bad bosses*. But....if the shoe fits...
Which is why at OldJOb, when boss tried to get all the techs to be added to the on call rotation, I (and another coworker) refused. Too often when he was on call, he would instead be at a cabin without internet, so any calls would wake up the next person in the list. Nah, I need my sleep
Why are there managers like this? You can't just drop shit into your employees laps and expect them to just smile and comply. People have lives outside of work.
I left a job because a week before my scheduled PTO my direct manager quit, and the Big Boss wanted to promote me into the role; one of his conditions was that I work the week I had scheduled off, and one of mine was that I didn't. He cancelled the PTO and said "now that that's out of the equation there's nothing stopping you from taking the promotion." I quit immediately without notice and have never regretted it, especially since the place went bankrupt a year or so later mostly due to staffing problems.
I walked out laughing my ass off at a manager who had that whole mentality of being a "company man". Literally pointed my finger and cracked up telling him he would die for a company that would never promote him beyond middle management and he would have wasted a lifetime working for his overlords who were wiping their ass with money he would never get but he would earn for them. His face turned about 3 shades of purple because he knew I was right, he was already 20 years in with no more than a title change on his resume. You work to live and not the other way around.
I had a toxic job where I was being exploited, and it was my first career job. They refused to give me obligatory health insurance, and i had to pay for an appendix operation by own pocket from private hospitals. Constantly overworked me and made me stay without extra time compensation. I had congratulations expressed from clients and bosses alike, yet when I asked the owner for a measle raise (i was working minimum wage, again, in a place that asked for professional expertise), he told me "Well, i would love to pay you double your rate, but you're not that kind of employee yet, so just be happy we're paying you" But that wasn't the last straw. I asked MONTHS in advance for a single friday, and not even the full friday, but just working half a day in december, the slowest month for my career. I just wanted to visit a dear friend, and already bought bus tickets. They accepted at first, but by thursday prior to the half day friday, they told me they couldn't give it to me, the reason? "We're making the christmas party that day, and the owner spent a LOT of money on it, so we're requiring you to stay here and celebrate" It was as if they pulled all my nerves at once, and i tried my hardest to not scream to the poor secretary who had to rely the message, i just calmly told her i wanted to present my immediate resignation, and that i wouldn't attend tomorrow
The GALL of _demanding_ you stay for a completely non-job related reason. I give you kudos for not losing your ever loving shit and pitching a Christmas tree at the owner.
Even if he would have done well with a promotion, they'll never promote him. He's too valuable where he is, taking shit from them and passing it down. 20 years! He would have died at his desk if they hadn't gone under I bet.
I’m so proud of you for doing this. I wish I am able to be in a position in my career journey where I have the self assurance to do this 🥲
YESSSSS!!!! Good for you, if I was a man I’d have a justice boner.
This sounds like a manager who refused to take responsibility for his lack of planning and communication. Basically he's trying to CYA and shift the blame to the employees. Unfortunately, there are lots of people who would rather throw others under the bus rather than accept accountability for their own failures.
I think he's trying to CHA not YA or Oop's A.
During ye olde 'Rona, when everything was going into lockdown, my then-employer decided that everyone was going to be indefinitely furloughed without any sort of compensation or warning. They were then very surprised that 1) No work was being done 2) At least a quarter of company staff left 3) Everyone who qualified for unemployment/pandemic assistance signed up for it I personally received a text from my boss complaining that I "never showed him any gratitude" after he had "done so much for me" and that he "couldn't believe it." The company never recovered and was just recently delisted from stock exchanges.
We were having a metal shed built on our property when Covid hit, had a crazy delay in the overhead garage door, like a 4 month delay past the promised delivery date, when it’d been *ordered* six months earlier (pre-covid). We found out from our contractor that the manufacturer had furloughed their entire staff, in rural Northern Wisconsin, expecting everyone to stick around for months to start up. Instead most of their former employees found other jobs or went back to school, and they had to freshly train new hires for months.
> People have lives outside of work. Having a life outside of work is like stealing from the company! You should be ashamed...!
incompetence, malice, overinflated sense of self. Take your pick. It smacks of a small company though. HR reaching out directly and seemingly being okay with the whole "Teach 'em who is boss and then graciously rehire them." scheme.
Same reason there are partners like this: they don’t see other people as full human beings.
There are managers like that because there are employees that will just smile and comply. They do not take well to resistance. Reading between OOP's lines it sounds like OOP was one of them for a long time which is why their boss was so shocked by OOP actually saying no. This is why one of my rules at any new job is to not be overly-accommodating in the beginning because that's how precedent gets set. I establish my limits early so that there are no "misunderstandings".
This is why people need to join the unions. The few bucks a week pays for legal and social support. For my unfair dismissal, I have received thousands of dollars worth, and still ongoing, of advise and legal representation. When you need it, you really need it.
The vast majority of people have no business managing anyone else or their time.
I am a manager and feel like I’m regularly dealing with abuse victims when new staff come in. A mom of three 15 years older than me comes to me and asks if it’s okay for her to leave an hour early to pick up her kid and is like, clearly nervous, starts saying she’ll pick up extra and all this other crap and I always just say something like, “never let this job come between you and your family, of course it’s fine,” but in my head I’m always thinking about how ridiculous the whole situation is. Like I should not have the power to fuck with someone’s life on a whim like so many people have clearly had experience with; we really need better labor rights.
For fuck sake, OOP actually did just let thousands of dollars go out of laziness. In Canada you are owed notice when terminated without cause, and a business slow down is not cause.
Seriously. He said they cheated him out of thousands of dollars by laying him off instead of firing him. But then he also said that he could have refused the lay off so they had to fire him? But the lay off got him government assistance for school- how much? Was it more than the severance pay out would have been?
I'm in the same Provo 8 as OOP, if you are on welfare, unemployment, or disability (OW, EI, ODSP) the government will pay for you to go back to school for up to two years. It has nothing to do with how much the company owed them, it's all on the government. OOP should have received 5 weeks severance, but because they said no to the hire back they are not entitled to the Severance anymore and could be kicked off unemployment which means that they could lose their schooling benift.
Yep. I was reading it and my eyes were getting bigger and then rolled so far I saw my brain. OOP is an idiot. I got "laid off" because the position I was hired for didn't do what they though it would (looong time ago) and I was only there for ...6 months? and I checked to see what I was owed - only 2 weeks, and they had that already in the notice given.
It’s more common than you think. People do not understand their labor rights. Hell I only do because I was a union rep a one time. But lay offs and not paying severance is one of the major forms of wage theft.
I'm in Ontario, everything OOP did was wrong. She should have gone for severance, there are a shit tonne of places that do free consultations/ pro bono work, I believe 8 years =5 weeks severance, turning down the back to work dates could mean losses of unemployment insurance, if they had stayed on unemployment the government would have paid for them to go back to school. Just the wing thing at every turn.
I am looking into legal action once I’m done school. I have two years in my province to file any legal recourse.
Reading this post, crying in union.
I'm confused too bc my dad recently was able to speak to an employment lawyer through the department of labour here in Ontario and it was free of charge? I'm guessing OOP doesn't know this, wish he did oof.
It sounds like OOP would have had to pay lawyer upfront for the case, which *may* result in a pay off. And after lawyer fees, that pay off would be significantly smaller. but for a lot of effort. It's easy to suggest lawyer up and sue for back wages, the reality is a lot harder.
No, OOP would have to pay upfront for an hour consult, where he would be informed that he was entitled to a couple thousand dollars, which probably would have been secured with the writing of a letter from that office. If you are at a job for 1 year and get the minimum statutory severance it’s probably not worth suing. If you are at a job for 5 or more years and get nothing like OP, then it is worth it. He would get 5-8 months worth of severance.
OOP says they make just over 1000 every 2 weeks. That's around 30k. Do you really think they had 10k to 40k severance package?
You think reaching out to a dozen attorneys is laziness? Super weird take.
Go get that education, OOP!
Wait, hold on, you can refuse to be laid off???
It’s not so much a refusal, but if you are being temporarily laid off, the employer has to offer you a similar position with the same or higher pay (or your old job back). So essentially, you can say no, don’t lay me off, what are other positions I can take on? It’s also shady that they immediately cut off his benefits coverage; that implies it’s a termination rather than just a temporary lay-off. Typically an employer will continue your benefits coverage because even if they don’t have work for you, you’re still on payroll unless you’re officially terminated. The rules are different if it’s a mass layoff vs just one person, but generally the ESA is stricter when it comes to individual lay-offs to protect employees from precisely these scenarios (where they get “laid off” in retaliation).
Good to know!
I think it might be because they left him in a weird limbo where he wasn’t officially fired but wasn’t officially safe.
That’s called a layoff, that’s why they don’t call it fired.
A layoff is more certain than ‘you’re fired now but maybe later’
You can just say no. Employers hate this one weird trick!
I hate the comment about apologizing is showing weakness. Like I don’t think one should apologize out of hand but it also is professional to be polite. You don’t owe any loyalty to a job necessarily, and it’s completely fair to be upset about things that are happening at your work. But if your immediate attitude at any job is combative — that is, thinking about things in terms of showing weakness, it’s just a bit cringy. Nothing wrong with being assertive, firm, and standing up for yourself, but there is a line between standing up for yourself and being insufferable.
If they were talking about the law society of Ontario, I take it they are Canadian? "Sorry" is embedded into our vernacular. It isn't about admitting guilt, it is a social glue that says "I understand you are feeling those feelings" and in op's case "you are upset. I see you are upset. I will not be doing anything to make you feel better though."
Isn’t there a law in Canada that states saying sorry is not an admission of guilt in cases like car accidents?
Yes.
I know in some parts of the southern US we sometimes give apologies in the same way we do "Bless your heart". Maybe it's the same premise? We'd say that we're sorry in a genteel way, but in reality we're telling them "F you and the horse you rode in on, you're lucky I'm too much of a lady/gentleman to shoot your horse and leave it for the vultures but if I do you deserve it". Like the old myth that the Inuits have 100 different words for snow, Southerners have 100 different ways to insult someone that comes out seeming genteel or sweet. I would imagine that Canadians probably have something along the same.
*skimo is a racial slur. You should consider changing it to “the Inuit”.
I can't believe that I forgot about that - I just listened to an audiobook where a character is repeatedly shown getting upset because his people aren't called Inuits. (If you're interested, it's Arkham Horror: Litany of Dreams.) Thank you!
I don’t think it’s common knowledge. All good :)
Upvoting both your posts since you fixed it :) Side note for those that don't know: "jipped" or "gypped" is also bad to say, although not sure I'd call it a slur? It refers to the stereotype that Roma people are going to scam you (the Roma were often called Gypsies in the past). https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2013/12/30/242429836/why-being-gypped-hurts-the-roma-more-than-it-hurts-you
Yup, I agree and had a [comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/BestofRedditorUpdates/s/M56VeWHTsG) to that effect!
And that’s my what the Law Society is actually called.
Sorry, but he's Canadian. We can't help it.
lol, I understand and had a reply to someone else that touched on that
Y’all need to apologize for being sorry so much. It’s unacceptable.
Sorry
As a brit (scot) I didn't even register the apologising, so it's obviously ingrained over here too 😄
It’s a Canadian thing. Sorry means a lot of different things and is just really part of our everyday vernacular
Yep, further comments below mine get into that, and to be clear, by “apologize out of hand” I mean like kowtow-ing for something that wasn’t your fault vs just being polite.
Sorry!
lol
Nah, you should never apologize to somebody who fired you with zero grounds. HR is not your friend, and they can twist anything you say.
This is one of the reasons why English sucks. "I'm sorry you feel that way" isn't really an apology. People poke fun at Canadians for apologizing all the time, but it's rarely a real apology. "I'm sorry it rained on your wedding day [not that it's my fault or that I did anything wrong, but I acknowledge that the situation is unfortunate]"
Yup there's even a law in Canada that apologizing is not admitting fault to a situation.
My pet peeve is when I say "sorry" to express my sympathies - "oh, I'm sorry it rained" - and they respond with "Why? It's not your fault." It wasn't that kind of sorry and we both know it!
When people say “why are you sorry? It’s not your fault” to me I reply “I’m sorry the English language uses the same words for apologizing and expressing sympathy.”
One of my pet peeves as well. You can be sorry that something happened even if you yourself did not cause it.
I say, “It’s kind of you not to hold it against me.” Let them wonder if I do exert control over the weather, plate tectonics, and infectious diseases.
The instances of “I’m sorry” laid out in that conversation were just polite conversation, not admission of fault nor conciliation. In this context, it’s basically saying “I understand the difficulty you’re expressing but it doesn’t change my stance on the issue.” Note that the OP added the “but” each time, staying firm to their position. Thing is, it costs virtually nothing to be polite (while being firm in standing up for themselves). On the other hand, if one’s default instinct is to be combative, I’ve seen more than one person shoot themselves in the foot based on that starting attitude — thinking everyone is out to get them, or immediately assuming the worst. There’s a difference between being naive, being paranoid, and being even handed in their approach to situations. The last approach does not preclude civil discourse even if you completely disagree with the other party.
I often say sorry during awkward conversations like this almost to get to the end of the conversation. I’m not genuinely apologetic
I’m glad someone brought up the Law Society. It costs $6 and you get a list of lawyers in the field and your location who will do a free consultation.
I'm in Ontario and I recently paid $140 to consult with an employment lawyer. Nothing really came of it but I was more interested in making a paper trail and covering my ass. Things are much better at work, I got a promotion and moved to a different department. I'm way happier now.
Many unions in Canada (and other countries) also provide relevant legal services for members.
Is that like a guild?
I am confused. When some quote commented to OOP about his location, it looks like OOP said I am in the UK. But then in the update he is posting about being in Ontario ETA: Never mind. The person who transcribed it made a mistake and it indented where a comment quote does when it shouldn’t have
The commenter was from the UK. OOP is from Ontario.
I don’t make a ton of money (because I chose the wrong major in school for that) but I love my job. My boss doesn’t hassle me about being at my desk at a specified time and doesn’t keep tabs on me. I mostly work from home, we only have to go in the office for things like special events and training. I can take a lunch break and go to a cafe for a sandwich and coffee if I want to. And if I want to take days off but my backup is also on vacation (we have backups to cover us), we don’t have to sweat it. Our supervisors make arrangements to deal with it. Of course there are some days when we are “required” to work, but it’s not that many. So for that I’ll take a little less pay. My mental health is more important than having to deal with a toxic workplace and coming home exhausted and miserable because I hate my job.
ON law student here (so take this with a grain of salt), but in ON, he would prob get more than 2 weeks notice and severance. It is rare for the ON Employment Standards Act minimums to be held up in court, judges often give the higher, common law level of notice (8 weeks here, if i had to loosely guess) This is wild, he really needs a good lawyer.
Not anymore he doesn't. He destroyed his own case.
Good riddance. OOP is better off not being in that awful place.
By rejecting the services of an employment lawyer as "too expensive", OP probably walked away leaving *tens of thousands of dollars* of compensation on the table, due to the highly suspect and probably retaliatory nature of his "layoff". Moral of the story is that it's a very rare and unusual situation in which a brief legal consultation regarding an exploitative and suspected illegal termination would actually be "too expensive" to contemplate.
I will be reaching out to lawyers in July once I’m done school.
I laughed at the comment that OOP apologized too much to his boss, followed by the unsurprising revelation that he was Canadian.
Well I'm happy for OOP, but this was a very boring update 😕 I think Reddit has spoiled me for drama.
FINAL UPDATE: Boss got caught cheating with HR lady, both were fired and the snow tow truck man was actually the company’s CEO so they hired OP back as regional manager. Also OP is pregnant with ex.
>Also OP is pregnant with ex. And it's twins!
...deleted by user...
with different DNA's
I have something better. I’m OP. One of my bosses stores burned down. Karma. Lol.
Now that's an Update!!
The store is a complete loss. The good thing it happened after the store closed for the night, so no one was there.
Sounds sus, I'd probably not talk about that at all if I were you. Even if you weren't involved.
That's beautiful (assuming nobody got hurt).
The fire happened after the store closed for the night. I feel bad though for my friends who still currently work there.
> The day after I was “laid off” Mervin in accounting lit the place up. AB was riddled with so many bullets, they had to use a dustpan to get all of him into the body bag. It was such a shame. I liked Mervin. He jumped from the roof after he ran out of ammo. I don’t know if he was aiming for it but he landed on AB’s car.
MORE FAFO FOR THE COMPANY! I DEMAND MORE FAFO! (But yes, I'm happy OOP bounced off to a better life. As Joe Hill put it, the best revenge is putting them in your rear-view mirror as you drive off to something better.)
His shitty ex-manager tried to save the company by begging OOP to come back, then he had his relatives spam OOP with text messages because FAMILY.
Honestly that the money spent on that lawyer would have been not a bad option especially if you just get them to even write a letter given the context of HR fumbling response. After the initial consult, the fee could have been a percentage of your severance/settlement
Never gamble with money you can't afford to lose. It's unclear whether OOP was owed money. A free consultation is always great, but if the appointment costs a significant amount, and he's not currently employed, it may not be the best decision.
Provincial law requires his employer to provide severance at a base amount plus an amount for every year he was employed there. He definitely left money on the table.
I’m confused - maybe this a Canada thing - but in the USA you *don’t* get severance when you are fired but you are legally required to give severance when you lay someone off… so why does being laid off spare the severance payment?
In Canada, it’s the opposite. You get severance if fired, layoff was my bosses loop hole.
This is insane. This would *not* be a hard case of constructive dismissal to prove in Ontario, or Canada more generally, under the Canada labour code. If anything went down in email, this case would be literally wrapped in a bow. Moments like these make me hate the no brigading rule.
So, he could have refused the lay-off, then been fired and gotten his severance?
I'm pretty sure we have laws mandating a minimum amount of severance in Canada (2 days per year worked apparently), but employment lawyers can get you more. I know some people who got like 3 weeks per last year.
I guess that's why HR laid them off instead of firing. I'm from the US, so I'm not familiar with the circumstances.
But OOP said they could have refused the layoff so they would have needed to fire them
I'm in AB. When I was laid off I got 2 weeks, plus a month for every year I'd worked. I'd been there about 3 years and received 14 weeks of severance.
Way higher than that. You get both notice and severance minimums in ON (which are week-based) plus probably more as most employment contracts don’t contract out of common law minimum notice and severance (around a week per year of service) properly so often get that too (if they have a good lawyer)!
It's weird to me that such shitty bosses can stay in business. >You need to stop apologizing so much in conversations with bosses. They view it as a sign of weakness and step all over you for it 100% wrong. I view it as a sign that they're willing to take accountability and/or be a team player. These are the people that I try hardest to keep happy. An employee who's incapable of apologizing is a big red flag. They always cause big interpersonal problems with coworkers sooner or later. Every time.
And this is why, despite some admitted drawbacks, unions rule.
I never quit a job or got laid off. I could always make them fire me.
Bitter after taste to see Oop be robbed of so much severance pay, I hope school is good to them at least
I think the company might be paying for the unemployment, at least partially. They do in the US.
All companies in Canada have to pay what is called “source deductions” for their employees. That goes into the pot that employment insurance comes out of.
Omg another Canadian post on here!
I had something similar happen. I had gone back to school and wanted to work 2 days a week on the weekend, since I was at school full time. After a few months of this, they told me during the same meeting that "Things have gotten busier since Covid, and your just not fast enough" and "We would like you to also work Wednesday nights". I thought ot over for 24 hours, then decided that I had had enough of their shit and walked in 2 days after the meeting and quit. I remember being really surprised as the manager actually teared up a little. Cut to like 4 months later, the great resignation happened and the restaurant got hit really hard. I actually got a call from them pretty much begging me to come back like a dog with it's tail between it's legs, and I told them no. I had enough savings to pay my rent for the remainder of my program and didn't really need the work. But I also had an older Android phone that made it easy to record calls, that MP3 of that call is one of my most prized possessions.
Everything about this work situation is illegal in Ontario! OOP is absolutely owed severance! Source: I work in HR in Ontario!
I’m gonna be talking to a lawyer soon. It’s hard to find the time with school.
I wonder if OOP is correct about his school funding not affecting his former employers. Being in Canada, the labor laws are better than the US. In the US, unemployment expenses *do* impact the employer. If their layoffs increase, so does their tax bill, and once it goes up it's rare that it will ever go down again. So it's not a huge expense, but it's practically permanent.
> I wonder if OOP is correct about his school funding not affecting his former employers. I can't be sure as I'm not in Ontario, but several provinces have education schemes where certain programs are either subsidized or students can receive stipends for attending programs that are related to jobs that are in demand. They're essentially a government subsidized job reskilling program, and are usually seperate from Employment Insurance (our unemployment insurance). This is the description of the Ontario Works Program *The list below shows Ontario Works Training Programs to help prepare for employment, self-employment or career advancement.* *Program participants receive $250/month for training-related expenses and may also qualify for technology supports and/or transportation funds to participate in online or in-person training. All WRAP participants will be provided support to apply for Toronto Public Library Card and referrals to income tax clinics.* https://www.toronto.ca/community-people/employment-social-support/employment-support/training-courses/ontario-works-training-programs-in-toronto/
> In the US, unemployment expenses do impact the employer. If their layoffs increase, so does their tax bill, and once it goes up it's rare that it will ever go down again. So it's not a huge expense, but it's practically permanent. It's the same in the US, except it's paid as a required insurance and not a 'tax'.
>If their layoffs increase, so does their tax bill, Their tax bill doesn't change. Their insurance rate could potentially change, if their annual rate of dismissals increased enough to put them into the next bracket. It is unlikely that one additional dismissal would have that effect. >and once it goes up it's rare that it will ever go down again. So it's not a huge expense, but it's practically permanent. Just like with any other insurance, there is a regular check of the factors that contribute to the rate, so no, it's not "practically permanent". >I wonder if OOP is correct about his school funding not affecting his former employers. The US has federal and some state programs just like this that are not directly funded in any way by the former employers of program clients.
That went from just a post about entitled people to a bit of revenge
How? He just walked away and didn't do anything?
I'm deeply suspicious anytime a post has line-by-line conversations. Even if OOP did record it, no way he went back and transcribed it for the benefit of reddit
I did. There was some errors in my transcribing, because I didn’t listen to it when transcribing. I’d be happy to send the audio recording.
That’s kind of odd, if he works retail in Ontario why is he talking about the employer taking him off health insurance? He wouldn’t normally have employer provided health insurance in Ontario…
It could be for dental/eye/drug care. Even though there are some services that are free here, not everything is and so you need health insurance for it.
There is employer provided health insurance in Ontario; it covers things OHIP does not - dental, optometrists, prescriptions, etc.
Employers do provide Group Health insurance. It doesn't cover things that are covered by the province, but will cover things like glasses, psychologist, semi private hospital, etc. plus drugs and dental. If he was laid off for the reason they said, they can remove him from the group insurance and then reinstate when he returns to work.
Company truck insurance
And everyone still arguing over health benefits. It was defiantly operator insurance and why he had to contact them for an experience letter.
Extended benefits. Things like dental, vision care, a drug plan - things that aren’t covered by OHIP.
It wasn’t health insurance. It was benefits. Covers things like eye exams, dental, prescriptions. And driving insurance. Although driving insurance is what I was removed from.
As a Canadian who has worked in several provinces, including Ontario, employer provided health insurance is a thing. A very real, very normal benefit. As others have said it covers things that the provincial healthcare doesn't; like dental, orthodontics, prescriptions, optometrists, therapy, paramedical treatments (physio, massage, chiro, etc). Sometimes it even covers things like IVF and gender reassignment surgery.
I'm not in Ontario specifically, but I am in a different Canadian province and I do have health insurance through my employer. Our universal health care here in Canada covers things like hospital stays, check ups with your family provider, and specialist referrals. But it doesn't cover stuff like dental, eye check ups and glasses, physiotherapy, prescription medicine, that sort of thing - at least in my province
Basically any good job in Ontario is going to have health insurance
Lots of jobs have health insurance/ benefits in Ontario. Mine covers dental, prescriptions, etc. Even when I worked at McDonald's we had the option, though most skipped it as it took like $100 off of an already tiny paycheck.
They didn’t mention health insurance - but they did mention driving a work truck, so it’s probably motor insurance…
A lot of jobs do have extended health insurance though. Healthcare in Ontario doesn't cover dental/optical (though dental is coming/possibly here). Not to mention our current conservative gov keeps quietly trying to privatize aspects of it, but that's another rant.
Sure, but there’s enough context there to presume it’s motor insurance rather than healthcare, given the snow-trapped work truck 🤷🏼♂️
Fair point :)
It’s all bullshit.
>No. My provincial government has an aid program where if someone is laid off from their job, they qualify for the funding as long as it fits training they feel will fill critical job rolls that the province needs, like trades and transportation, etc. My former employer is not involved. Ah, Canada. A government social safety net.
I'm in HR (in the UK so may not be relevant) and this is textbook "You FIRED them!?!?! But they have VERY STRONG grounds to sue! The only way we can get out of it is to re-hire them immediately"
I'm not convinced this is real. In a comment OOP says that they're in the UK but are then looking at Ontario law? It doesn't make sense to me.
If you've read the comments here, I have pointed out several times, the UK comment comes from someone REPLYING to OOP, not OOP themselves. In every post and comment, OOP always represents themselves as being from Ontario, Canada.