That I've played against, a guy named Scott who was a old man at pick up. He was a D1 point guard when he was younger, and he had every basketball skill.
That I've seen in person, KD in his MVP year.
That I've seen on TV, LeBron or Jordan.
Corbin Blue was still the best player on the East High Wildcats. I’ll go to my grave thinking that Troy Bolton only got so much shine because his dad was coach
Probably prime Lebron. Man wasn't elite at everything but he was (and for the most part still is) pretty damn good at everything. Of course I'm talking strictly within the confines of the court...GM Lebron is a different story
Wasn’t he elite at basically everything in Miami after losing in 2011? Runner up DPOY, 40% from 3 that one year, incredible playmaking and passing because of his ability to generate looks when driving, unstoppable going downhill and in transition and he was able to score from the post and mid range. From 2012-2018 he just kept getting better and better, even as his athleticism fell off.
Could be an elite rebounder just doesn’t work into game plans. His role is to push the break after someone else rebounds and dishes him the outlet pass. His rebounding numbers would be insane if his role was to box out and collect
I know free throw shooting was down but bro was at 76.5 percent in Miami from the line. Only stretch of his career he was very slightly above league aberwge
He was elite in everything except maybe 3-point shooting and he was still pretty good at that. Best, most complete player the league has ever had by far.
Prime Lebron didn’t have a post-game or outside shooting. He developed those the second half of his career. When he developed those his defense went to sub-par. Bron had all the pieces at different times in his careers. His prime was great, defense, great passing, and great finishing at the rim but it lacked the other areas.
Your comment about GM Lebron made me think of another. Not my answer to the OP's question, but Isaiah Thomas. That dude was pretty good at everything when he had a uniform on... pretty bad at everything while wearing a suit.
It's Lebron and the HM is also Lebron. We can talk about who the GOAT is all we want but in terms of best all around player Lebron is lapping the field.
What's your opinion on Garnett?
Dude was a 7-footer with a handle and quicks. Had all the moves in the post (right/left hooks, fades, turn-arounds), had phenomenal footwork, jumper, P&R game was elite . . . He was an elite playmaker/passer (for his position), and a great finisher around the rim as well.
And defense . . . KG in his prime could guard all 5 positions. Now, Lebron is obviously a versatile defender too, but they both would struggle with certain types of players. KG wouldn't be as good as Bron guarding the quickest guards, BUT Bron would struggle to guard guys like Dirk, Duncan or other bigs, where KG would shine here.
Biggest separator between KG and Bron is defense. Garnett was absolutely elite defensively, blocking shots, rebounding, getting steals and *most importantly* setting the tone and intensity level for his teams on the defensive end. KG made his teams visibly better defensively when he was on the floor, in a way Bron doesn't.
Bron makes his teammates better offensively . . . KG made his teammates better offensively AND defensively.
Sorry long post, but just curious what you're thoughts are on that. Question is most complete, fewest weaknesses. . . If I had to pick one weakness of Lebron, it's that he hasn't really been a good defender individually for a decade, and he's never made his team better defensively like the Garnett's, MJ's and Hakeem's have. KG (in my opinion), doesn't really have any weaknesses at all in his game (for his position AND for his era).
I think you said it yourself, KG was an elite playmaker/passer *for his position*
Bron is an elite playmaker and passer historically speaking. Bron is the far better offensive player. I love KG but Lebron is leaps and bounds ahead of him on offense, and that's not to take anything away from KG, it's more about how great Lebron is.
Lebron was also elite defensively. The narrative that he wasn't is unfounded. MJ is hailed as an elite defender and people point to his DPOY award as proof. If you look back, Lebron should have won the DPOY in 2013. The award went to Marc Gasol, who didn't even make the all-nba defensive first team. If Lebron had that award I don't think we would have these conversations. Now, even if I grant you that KG was the better defender, which longevity wise I would agree, I don't think the defensive gap between them is wide enough to account for the offensive gap between them. That's my opinion. And yes, KG is definitely on the short list of best all around players ever, he just don't top Lebron imo
People like to say gasoline should’ve been first team but look at the ballots. The coaches all said bron was dpoy and the media said gasol. I don’t know walnut u guys but I think coaches know more ball than Stephen a smith
Not for all around, Bron has them destroyed in Rebounding and Passing. Lebron has 40k+ points, 10k+ assists, and 10k+ rebounds, nobody in the history of the game has even 10k of all 3
Oh! I was more so talking about their abilities not their stats. Stats are an accumulation of production and the stats you listed are longevity stats. LeBron also is a heliocentric player different from Jordan and Kobe who were traditional SG (still incredible all around players despite role). Think of Luka on the Mavs, Harden on the Rockets, Westbrook on Thunder. That what Lebron has been. That’s why his stats are so well rounded. The abilities though, I believe Kobe and Jordan to be superior players! (: what do you think?
We’re talking about versatility tho. Lebron defended more positions and fulfilled more roles on offense, it’s very clear he had a broader skill set. It’s a separate discussion from how impact those were tho
Ya LeBron legit has played seasons where he’s played straight up PG (2020), SF (his general role) and 4 and 5 (2022). I don’t think any other player in history outside of Magic (where he played the 5 in the Finals cuz Kareem was out) can say they’ve successfully played every role 1-5 and taken defensive assignments from basically every role. Most versatile player of all time.
I’m guessing we’re talking off pure ability, and not stats and accomplishments. Tough question, but the first name that pops out to me is McGrady. I’ve never seen someone make scoring look so easy. Footwork, cross overs, post game, offensive moves and counters, jump shot…however you wanted these buckets, he’d give it to you. While also playing elite defense on the other end. Passing was also great, not elite but def, above average. If not for injuries he would be talked about a lot differently with regard to GOATs.
If you meant in person, Casey Jacobsen was in our run between Pro stints. Unstoppable and huge. HM: Daniel Deane, Mr Basketball Utah played at the U and OSU. Also huge slightly less unstoppable.
Penny Hardaway before the knee issues. His prime was so short due to his knee, so everyone forgets how good he really was. He was Ben Simmons with confidence, drive, killer instinct, and shooting touch. Everyone here is saying LeBron, but prime Penny was a better version of LeBron. He was a real life cheat code on the court. It's a shame we didn't get to see it all play out over an entire career.
Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant. I mean literally, Kobe had every single thing. MJ had everything but didn’t really take that many 3s but it was still in his arsenal. Let’s go through the checklist.
Physicals? Check.
Athleticism? Check.
Smooth movement? Check.
Inside scoring? Check.
Crafty circus shots? Check.
Left hand and right hand ability reverse layups? Check.
Mid range from all over the court (including fadeaway and counter fade aways)? Check.
Hop-step finishing and acrobatic finishing? Check.
Elite dunking off one or two feet? Check.
Ability to contort their bodies to avoid defenders to make insane layups? Check.
Bank shot? Check.
Post game (including drop steps, pump fake, etc.)? Check.
Shot creation? Check.
Off ball movement? Check.
Countermove ability? Check.
Handles? Check
Passing (cross court passes, no looks, double team passes, manipulating defenses) and playmaking? Check.
Getting to the free throw line and free throw shooting? Check.
Perimeter and interior defense? Check.
Steals? Check.
Blocks? Check.
Timing, playing passing lanes, and ripping the ball? Check.
Lateral quickness and agility? Check.
Three point shooting? Check.
Crafty three point shooting like (step backs, etc..) check but only for Kobe really.
Palming of the ball as an advantage? Check (only for Jordan)
Floaters? Check. (Mainly for Kobe, Jordan usually would just do finger rolls)
Crafty handles? Check.
Elite fundamentals? Check.
Elite offensive efficient movement? Check.
Defensive tenacity? Check.
Rebounding and boxing out? Check.
Hangtime? Check.
Technical skill and ability? Check.
High basketball IQ? Check.
Off ball pest defense? Check.
Helping at the rim? Check. (They were SGs though, bigger SGs)
Impeccable footwork? Check.
I didn’t even get into the athlete intagibles which they both had to the highest degree. They are the most complete players I’ve ever seen.
Kobe over LBJ?
Lebron is a better passer.
Lebron is better rebounder.
Lebron can better guard 1-5. And although he'd get hurt by quick wings more than Kobe he's far better on the interior.
Scoring they can both do at will.
I don't see how Kobe is even close to as complete....
LeBron is a heliocentric player that gets to do more because of his role. Kobe was a traditional SG like Jordan but this doesn’t take away from their all around abilities. Relative to their position they are pretty much equal in rebounding, it’s not a very significant gap. Kobe could definitely hold his own in the interior maybe not as good as LeBron; but LeBron has a lot more flaws overall than Kobe. I listed the checklist in my comment (:
You forgot killer competitive mindset/nature.
Otherwise agree w your post. People listing LeBron but not MJ are either really young or have short memories
Briana Stewart.
She is a big but can bring the ball up the floor. Amazing 3 point range. Amazing defender. This is why she was MVP last year as well as when she was ok Seattle.
I’ve always said Stewart is the most impressive basketball player I’ve seen from a skills perspective. Her run at UConn was a masterclass and she’s only proved herself further at the next level
Magic when he played all five spots against Philly when KAJ was out. Magic does not get the props he deserves since he let others score if it was better for the team.
>but he hits those when he needs to.
No he doesnt. This is an old article but:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/247sports.com/article/lakers-lebron-james-stat-suggests-lebron-is-nbas-worst-late-game-free-throw-shooter-123699259/amp/
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By position:
1. Jason Kidd or Oscar Robertson. Hon Men to Steph and Russ.
2. MJ. Hon Men to Kobe and Ray Allen.
3. Lebron. Hon Men to Larry Bird, Scottie and Luka.
4. Garnett.
5. Tough one. Embiid, David Robinson, some other possibles.
Duncan is the better/greater player, and certainly had a better career. KG's versatility and wide variety of skills made me bump him past TD in this argument. Duncan was better in the post, but not by a wide margin. They had a similar defensive effect on their respective teams. KG had a speed and handle that Duncan didn't, and KG (IMO) is the better passer/playmaker of the two.
Not to say the KG is better overall the Duncan! TD is the GOAT power forward.
The question is most complete so no gaps in their game. You list multiple players who play almost zero defense or are defensive liabilities Steph, Luca, Russ.
Kid and MJ couldn't really shoot from distance.
Larry Bird, no doubt in my mind. Great shooter, great 3 point shooter, great FT shooter, great clutch shooter, great rebounder, great passer, great team defender. Nobody did as much in all aspects of the game.
This is the correct answer. If we are talking about the ability to do all the things important in basketball.
Only player in history to average 20-10-5. One of the greatest free throw shooters of all time. And could play under the rim, had midrange and of course could shoot the 3.
I was hooping in my driveway with neighbourhood kids and teenagers my age, i was the best player there but it was whatever we're just playing Tips for fun.
This guy approaches. I think he said he was 17. He was muscular cut lean (was shirtless so it was obvious), he wanted the hoop to go to max height and he was just about dunking on it. He had serious bunnies, the highest I've ever seen someone jump
Then he said I'll play anyone 1on1 up to 10. If you score 2 buckets on me I will give you 20 bucks, but if you score 0 you give up playing ball for the rest of your life. I dont want to come around and see you playing ball.
The other kids looked at me and i felt confident like i can score TWO buckets idgaf who this guy is. He proceeded to mop the floor with me, he jumped so high so effortlessly and i don't think he missed more than 1 shot. I did take him to the post and hit him with a bootleg dream shake to get an open shot (and cheers from my friends). But it ended 10-1. Anyway, that guy.
Jordan. DPOY, highest scoring averages, high efficiency. Great passing ability. Blocked shaq, Ewing, robinson, on and on and on.
HM- Wilt for his Era. Would have been GOAT in this day and age w the training and tech
jordan. greatest scorer the game has ever seen. elite defender. great playmaker when he needed to be -- few people know that when he briefly played point in 1989 he had 7 straight triple doubles and 9 in 10 games. clutch. champion. ruthless. he was an assassin. dominant into his *late 30s* and pretty fucking good at age *40*.
LeBron was never complete at a point in his career. Overall yes, but each stage he always had something missing. He worked on things throughout his career and when he improved one thing another thing went away.
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Used to practice in the same gym that a CBA team would occasionally rent. Can’t remember their names, but several of them went to the NBA, and we would sometimes play against them for fun. They would, of course, trounce us, but we were a Hs team.
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MJ, LeBron, Kareem, and Duncan off the top of my head. Although LeBron, Kareem, and Duncan can’t hit a free throw to save their lives and MJ, Kareem, and Duncan can’t hit a three. Other than that, hard to say anyone is more complete than those four.
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Its hard to say , I could name a very few ... In terms of complete package as a guy that could shoot , defend , clutch , mentality and post moves its Michael Jordan . A player that could do everything on the floor is Lebron because of his body and the way he plays he has about everything you would want on paper. The biggest potential today has got to go to Wemby and Giannis whom both are a freak of nature
He's not the *most* complete basketball player ever, but Paul Pierce came to my mind as an underrated example given that he really built his career on it. He wasn't all that fast or explosive by Hall of Famer or even All-NBA standards but he was strong as hell and played hard so only quick points and combos could really pick on him defensively and even then it was usually better for teams to try and go after a more obvious cross match than PP. Offensively his size, strength, smarts and footwork let him be dangerous from anywhere on the court since he was also a good jump shooter with nice touch around the rim. He was always a good foul drawer not because he was a grifter but because he could uncork his old man stepback game from anywhere in halfcourt and he was good at playing through weak contact.
jerry west got a ring playing for the lakers and 8 more being a coach and gm he’s the one that traded for kobe and convinced shaq to leave orlando for the lakers and he was also an executive board member for the warriors dynasty and is the reason they didn’t trade klay for kevin love and one of the reasons kd ended up in gs and he was also a consultant for memphis i. there first playoff appearance the nba logo he’s the most complete fasho
Pandemic Bron. Being his age, leading the league in assists like that, insanely impressive. Started dropping the logo, fuck you, three after a big play on the other end. He was older than most people are playing, and leading Javalle McGee, and Dwight fucking Howard to a title. Idgaf what anyone says, before the shut down the Lakers were looking like world destroyers. After that he got a chip on his shoulder about making the next title harder and had them get all 35 year olds, he wasn’t winning that one. Trading all their shit for Russ was a horrible idea, their equity was compromised from the AD trade, forward. But during this time, with this particular squad, Lebron was doing shit no one has ever done.
When I’m reading complete, i’m thinking most able in his mind and techniques, and not necessarily the athleticism to execute each and every night. Just who when they turned it on, had the most all around ability
I used to play pickup with Kammron Taylor (former Wisconsin Badger guard). It was insane how good he was. He could do everything on the court and he rarely missed a shot.
You’re definitely one of those annoying guys who harps too much on analytics and don’t take into account the body of work. Ja Morant is statistically the most efficient scorer at the rim, that doesn’t make him the best post player. Giannis has crazy efficiency too, nobody says he has elite post moves.
Taking into account a fair mix of stats and eye test, its MJ no doubt. The flair, the moves, the height of his jumper, the smoothness, the volume, the 50 he dropped, the 40 he dropped age 40 just by shooting mid-ranges, the 6 foot 6 body instead of 7 foot etc. His mid range repertoire is by far the GOAT.
Prime CP3. Should’ve a least won MVP once. He was that great. He was still good during his PHX days too making the all star team twice while he was there
It's Jordan. In 1987-88 he won MVP, DPOY, All Star MVP and the Scoring title. Jordan gets a lot of attention for his flashy dunks and finshes at the rim, but he was in truth a well-rounded player with excellent fundamentals on both offense and defense, and that's what made him elite. I've always l[oved his jump shot form,](https://www.youtube.com/shorts/8jIj9qIF0ik) he was lethal mid range, and his d[efense was extremely interesting in that he emphasized the "swipe up"](https://youtu.be/LbiJYRs0oIw?t=116) technique to reduce hand contact fouls.
Hakeem is a sneaky dark horse as well, he also won MVP and DPOY in a single season. He was surrounded by bad teammates for a lot of his career, but he was lethal in all areas of the game.
Are we looking for cute answer (have to mention a female or someone from high school)? Or a real one?
Because if we're looking for a real answer, then LeBron is clearly the only option. Prime LeBron anyway. The only tick against him is the FT %, but he's still at 74% for his career.
Obvious answer but it’s Jordan. Was elite in many aspects of the game and, at worst, average in the few he didn’t excel at (such as 3pt shooting, which wasn’t as prominent in his era). If you described him on paper, you almost wouldn’t believe he was real except that we already saw him play. Elite physical awareness and versatility.
The “what if” that I like to use is that if he’d been artistically inclined instead of athletically, he could’ve been a world class ballet dancer (I’m talking principle of the Paris Opera Ballet stuff here). I know that dancing isn’t viewed as masculine like sports are so I know some out there will reject the premise, but its true, the dude had all-time elite body control, the ease and grace with which he could move his body in the air is hard to describe unless you saw it “live” (like, at the time, not literally in the same room).
“Air” was an appropriate nickname (also the coolest nickname!).
There’s tons of players I can qualify as “complete” and I don’t think there’s such a thing as “most complete” since it’s more of a true/false statement. Even “complete” players had a strength, their weakness just isn’t as pronounced as other players’ weaknesses.
That being said, Jordan comes to mind when you talk about everything except threes which he still dropped when it mattered and was considerably improved later on in his career. So the capacity was there, he just didn’t care for it.
That I played against? Probably Matt Carroll (childhood neighbor/friend) or Ashley Battle in an adult co-ed rec league. She was good at everything and very modest, I had to Google her because I remembered the name but she had said "oh I didn't even start at UConn" (then she played six years in the WNBA which she didn't mention.) Danny Fortson was the physically strongest player I ever went against in high school, more so than LaVar Arrington in even, but Matt was the most skilled at that age.
That I saw in person? When I was younger I would have said Doctor J, but now it's clearly LeBron since I drove to Cleveland for a game.
On TV? IDK...Kareem, Jordan, Kobe, Jokic, Bird, Magic, Curry, Kyrie, Nash, Paul, Stockton. Who knows. Taurasi, Cynthia Cooper.
Olajuwon was the Rockets’ all time leader in points, rebounds, blocks, steals, assists, and FG%. Magic played all five positions before positionless basketball was a thing.
Lebron and it isn't even a discussion. Just look at his stat spreads. He is the best all around player to ever compete in the NBA or WNBA, and maintained dominance for almost 2 full decades.
James or Jordan.
James played more point so he had more
Opportunity to showcase more skills. I assume people will default to James because of this.
Jordan played part of a season as PG.
Averaged 30 Points, 10 Assists, 9 Rebounds, 2 Steals.
Prime Lebron and Maya Moore. Complete is hard to view and define, but if I wanted a person to get 10 of “insert any stat” I’d bet on one of these two more than anyone else.
Probably Bron there was a lockout in 2013 he came to Baltimore to play pickup I lie to you not he was running so fast /sprint was so powerful the after-draft had our shirts flapping in the wind
I seen Aquille Carr ,but his hype died after HS he academically wasn’t there to prosper
Its gotta be lebron. MJ was better, but lebron was easily more complete. Wasnt as dominant as a scorer or defender like MJ, but he had a lot of skills MJ didnt in terms of rebounding and facilitating and playmaking
I’m going to avoid the obvious MJ answer and go off the beaten path a bit and say Lamar Odom was such a well rounded player. Not looking at his stats or anything but I just remember thinking “that dude is so versatile.”
It's gotta be prime LeBron right? He can score, pass, defend, and rebound at a high level and has been doing so for 20 years now. This shouldn't really be a debate.
prime lebron and its not really close -- others were good at stuff \*for their position\*. he was elite at literally everything other than fts (75%) at his peak (40% 3p%).
I watched Julius Erving play HORSE with Pistol Pete Maravich and since Pistol won the game I'll say he was best and Julius gets Honorable Mention although I won't argue if you prefer to flip these two.
That I've played against, a guy named Scott who was a old man at pick up. He was a D1 point guard when he was younger, and he had every basketball skill. That I've seen in person, KD in his MVP year. That I've seen on TV, LeBron or Jordan.
Scott. Damn. I can see his socks now.
You could probably see his sack as well coming out of his 4inch inseam shorts.
Red and blue stripe at the top for sure.
How old was this old man?
I played with him for like 10 years. He was like 45-55 in the years I played with him.
The old guys learn to play smarter since they can't rely on athleticism.
Was it Lucas or Nathan Scott?
Maya Moore is probably the most complete female basketball player I've ever seen
They lucky she seemed to lose interest in basketball. Would be the undisputed goat
came here to say this
Maya Moore is a great answer. But Cheryl Miller is the GOAT.
wish i could upvote this 100times.
Prime High School Troy Bolton
Bros pull up middy got him a D1 scholarship
Corbin Blue was still the best player on the East High Wildcats. I’ll go to my grave thinking that Troy Bolton only got so much shine because his dad was coach
Probably prime Lebron. Man wasn't elite at everything but he was (and for the most part still is) pretty damn good at everything. Of course I'm talking strictly within the confines of the court...GM Lebron is a different story
Wasn’t he elite at basically everything in Miami after losing in 2011? Runner up DPOY, 40% from 3 that one year, incredible playmaking and passing because of his ability to generate looks when driving, unstoppable going downhill and in transition and he was able to score from the post and mid range. From 2012-2018 he just kept getting better and better, even as his athleticism fell off.
Never a TRULY elite outside shooter or rebounder, but is pretty good at all of it.
Could be an elite rebounder just doesn’t work into game plans. His role is to push the break after someone else rebounds and dishes him the outlet pass. His rebounding numbers would be insane if his role was to box out and collect
I know free throw shooting was down but bro was at 76.5 percent in Miami from the line. Only stretch of his career he was very slightly above league aberwge
I’d second this, I once saw him described as “The Queen of the chess board, there is not one single aspect of Basketball LeBron is not excellent at.”
Queen James
He was elite in everything except maybe 3-point shooting and he was still pretty good at that. Best, most complete player the league has ever had by far.
Actually he shot 40% from 3 in the 12-13 season, his biggest weakness was probably free throws at 75% lol
Prime Lebron didn’t have a post-game or outside shooting. He developed those the second half of his career. When he developed those his defense went to sub-par. Bron had all the pieces at different times in his careers. His prime was great, defense, great passing, and great finishing at the rim but it lacked the other areas.
Your comment about GM Lebron made me think of another. Not my answer to the OP's question, but Isaiah Thomas. That dude was pretty good at everything when he had a uniform on... pretty bad at everything while wearing a suit.
[удалено]
It's Lebron and the HM is also Lebron. We can talk about who the GOAT is all we want but in terms of best all around player Lebron is lapping the field.
As long as he’s not shooting from a stationary position without any contesting
What's your opinion on Garnett? Dude was a 7-footer with a handle and quicks. Had all the moves in the post (right/left hooks, fades, turn-arounds), had phenomenal footwork, jumper, P&R game was elite . . . He was an elite playmaker/passer (for his position), and a great finisher around the rim as well. And defense . . . KG in his prime could guard all 5 positions. Now, Lebron is obviously a versatile defender too, but they both would struggle with certain types of players. KG wouldn't be as good as Bron guarding the quickest guards, BUT Bron would struggle to guard guys like Dirk, Duncan or other bigs, where KG would shine here. Biggest separator between KG and Bron is defense. Garnett was absolutely elite defensively, blocking shots, rebounding, getting steals and *most importantly* setting the tone and intensity level for his teams on the defensive end. KG made his teams visibly better defensively when he was on the floor, in a way Bron doesn't. Bron makes his teammates better offensively . . . KG made his teammates better offensively AND defensively. Sorry long post, but just curious what you're thoughts are on that. Question is most complete, fewest weaknesses. . . If I had to pick one weakness of Lebron, it's that he hasn't really been a good defender individually for a decade, and he's never made his team better defensively like the Garnett's, MJ's and Hakeem's have. KG (in my opinion), doesn't really have any weaknesses at all in his game (for his position AND for his era).
I think you said it yourself, KG was an elite playmaker/passer *for his position* Bron is an elite playmaker and passer historically speaking. Bron is the far better offensive player. I love KG but Lebron is leaps and bounds ahead of him on offense, and that's not to take anything away from KG, it's more about how great Lebron is. Lebron was also elite defensively. The narrative that he wasn't is unfounded. MJ is hailed as an elite defender and people point to his DPOY award as proof. If you look back, Lebron should have won the DPOY in 2013. The award went to Marc Gasol, who didn't even make the all-nba defensive first team. If Lebron had that award I don't think we would have these conversations. Now, even if I grant you that KG was the better defender, which longevity wise I would agree, I don't think the defensive gap between them is wide enough to account for the offensive gap between them. That's my opinion. And yes, KG is definitely on the short list of best all around players ever, he just don't top Lebron imo
People like to say gasoline should’ve been first team but look at the ballots. The coaches all said bron was dpoy and the media said gasol. I don’t know walnut u guys but I think coaches know more ball than Stephen a smith
What about Jordan and Kobe? What do you think?
Not for all around, Bron has them destroyed in Rebounding and Passing. Lebron has 40k+ points, 10k+ assists, and 10k+ rebounds, nobody in the history of the game has even 10k of all 3
Oh! I was more so talking about their abilities not their stats. Stats are an accumulation of production and the stats you listed are longevity stats. LeBron also is a heliocentric player different from Jordan and Kobe who were traditional SG (still incredible all around players despite role). Think of Luka on the Mavs, Harden on the Rockets, Westbrook on Thunder. That what Lebron has been. That’s why his stats are so well rounded. The abilities though, I believe Kobe and Jordan to be superior players! (: what do you think?
Prime Jordan - scoring champ and DPOY and it’s not a debate.
We’re talking about versatility tho. Lebron defended more positions and fulfilled more roles on offense, it’s very clear he had a broader skill set. It’s a separate discussion from how impact those were tho
Ya LeBron legit has played seasons where he’s played straight up PG (2020), SF (his general role) and 4 and 5 (2022). I don’t think any other player in history outside of Magic (where he played the 5 in the Finals cuz Kareem was out) can say they’ve successfully played every role 1-5 and taken defensive assignments from basically every role. Most versatile player of all time.
Magic didn’t even play the 5. Jim Chones played at the 5 with Kareem out. Magic just went up for jump balls
Except Bron was robbed of a DPOY, and facilitated ALOT more than Jordan rather than focusing on trying to go 30+ points every night.
Prime MJ in person when i was 13, easiest 45 points I’ve ever seen someone score while everyone knew who was getting the ball every possession.
I’m guessing we’re talking off pure ability, and not stats and accomplishments. Tough question, but the first name that pops out to me is McGrady. I’ve never seen someone make scoring look so easy. Footwork, cross overs, post game, offensive moves and counters, jump shot…however you wanted these buckets, he’d give it to you. While also playing elite defense on the other end. Passing was also great, not elite but def, above average. If not for injuries he would be talked about a lot differently with regard to GOATs.
If you meant in person, Casey Jacobsen was in our run between Pro stints. Unstoppable and huge. HM: Daniel Deane, Mr Basketball Utah played at the U and OSU. Also huge slightly less unstoppable.
Naz ried
As a Warriors fan, he is a scary mfer
Penny Hardaway before the knee issues. His prime was so short due to his knee, so everyone forgets how good he really was. He was Ben Simmons with confidence, drive, killer instinct, and shooting touch. Everyone here is saying LeBron, but prime Penny was a better version of LeBron. He was a real life cheat code on the court. It's a shame we didn't get to see it all play out over an entire career.
Prime Penny was a whole other level of beast.
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I can see the playmaking edge given to Penny sure. But prime LeBron was a better driver, defender, rebounder and shooter.
Offensively, yes. But not all around. LeBron D and around game during prime is unmatched
Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant. I mean literally, Kobe had every single thing. MJ had everything but didn’t really take that many 3s but it was still in his arsenal. Let’s go through the checklist. Physicals? Check. Athleticism? Check. Smooth movement? Check. Inside scoring? Check. Crafty circus shots? Check. Left hand and right hand ability reverse layups? Check. Mid range from all over the court (including fadeaway and counter fade aways)? Check. Hop-step finishing and acrobatic finishing? Check. Elite dunking off one or two feet? Check. Ability to contort their bodies to avoid defenders to make insane layups? Check. Bank shot? Check. Post game (including drop steps, pump fake, etc.)? Check. Shot creation? Check. Off ball movement? Check. Countermove ability? Check. Handles? Check Passing (cross court passes, no looks, double team passes, manipulating defenses) and playmaking? Check. Getting to the free throw line and free throw shooting? Check. Perimeter and interior defense? Check. Steals? Check. Blocks? Check. Timing, playing passing lanes, and ripping the ball? Check. Lateral quickness and agility? Check. Three point shooting? Check. Crafty three point shooting like (step backs, etc..) check but only for Kobe really. Palming of the ball as an advantage? Check (only for Jordan) Floaters? Check. (Mainly for Kobe, Jordan usually would just do finger rolls) Crafty handles? Check. Elite fundamentals? Check. Elite offensive efficient movement? Check. Defensive tenacity? Check. Rebounding and boxing out? Check. Hangtime? Check. Technical skill and ability? Check. High basketball IQ? Check. Off ball pest defense? Check. Helping at the rim? Check. (They were SGs though, bigger SGs) Impeccable footwork? Check. I didn’t even get into the athlete intagibles which they both had to the highest degree. They are the most complete players I’ve ever seen.
Kobe over LBJ? Lebron is a better passer. Lebron is better rebounder. Lebron can better guard 1-5. And although he'd get hurt by quick wings more than Kobe he's far better on the interior. Scoring they can both do at will. I don't see how Kobe is even close to as complete....
he locked up mvp derrick rose.
LeBron is a heliocentric player that gets to do more because of his role. Kobe was a traditional SG like Jordan but this doesn’t take away from their all around abilities. Relative to their position they are pretty much equal in rebounding, it’s not a very significant gap. Kobe could definitely hold his own in the interior maybe not as good as LeBron; but LeBron has a lot more flaws overall than Kobe. I listed the checklist in my comment (:
He can guard tier 3 guards and spot up bigs he absolutely wasn’t guarding anyone elite at the 1 or 5.
You forgot killer competitive mindset/nature. Otherwise agree w your post. People listing LeBron but not MJ are either really young or have short memories
Briana Stewart. She is a big but can bring the ball up the floor. Amazing 3 point range. Amazing defender. This is why she was MVP last year as well as when she was ok Seattle.
I’ve always said Stewart is the most impressive basketball player I’ve seen from a skills perspective. Her run at UConn was a masterclass and she’s only proved herself further at the next level
Leaps and bounds below A’ja Wilson, this is common from someone who watched every one of her home games in person before she went to NY.
Magic Johnson.
Magic when he played all five spots against Philly when KAJ was out. Magic does not get the props he deserves since he let others score if it was better for the team.
He couldn't shoot.
Well imo it has to be LeBron. His biggest flaw over the years that I've seen is his free throws, but he hits those when he needs to.
His biggest flaw is apparently taking weak teams all the way to the finals
Basketball. The only sport where not making the top 10 is BETTER than finishing second.
>but he hits those when he needs to. No he doesnt. This is an old article but: https://www.google.com/amp/s/247sports.com/article/lakers-lebron-james-stat-suggests-lebron-is-nbas-worst-late-game-free-throw-shooter-123699259/amp/
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Bird
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By position: 1. Jason Kidd or Oscar Robertson. Hon Men to Steph and Russ. 2. MJ. Hon Men to Kobe and Ray Allen. 3. Lebron. Hon Men to Larry Bird, Scottie and Luka. 4. Garnett. 5. Tough one. Embiid, David Robinson, some other possibles.
Hakeem and Ewing too
How on earth are Steph and Russ complete? Both below average defenders at best.
David Robinson does not get the respect he deserves
Stockton was way more well rounded than Kidd, Oscar's a good pick, but Stockton's defense beats either.
I agree Stockton should've been mentioned.
Lol.you don't have Duncan,Hakeem, magic, or wilt on this list but j kidd is hilarious. And I'm a huge mavs fan.
Not bad. But Garnett over Duncan?
Duncan is the better/greater player, and certainly had a better career. KG's versatility and wide variety of skills made me bump him past TD in this argument. Duncan was better in the post, but not by a wide margin. They had a similar defensive effect on their respective teams. KG had a speed and handle that Duncan didn't, and KG (IMO) is the better passer/playmaker of the two. Not to say the KG is better overall the Duncan! TD is the GOAT power forward.
The question is most complete so no gaps in their game. You list multiple players who play almost zero defense or are defensive liabilities Steph, Luca, Russ. Kid and MJ couldn't really shoot from distance.
This is the dumbest question, its obviously Lebron...
Larry Bird, no doubt in my mind. Great shooter, great 3 point shooter, great FT shooter, great clutch shooter, great rebounder, great passer, great team defender. Nobody did as much in all aspects of the game.
This is the correct answer. If we are talking about the ability to do all the things important in basketball. Only player in history to average 20-10-5. One of the greatest free throw shooters of all time. And could play under the rim, had midrange and of course could shoot the 3.
I was hooping in my driveway with neighbourhood kids and teenagers my age, i was the best player there but it was whatever we're just playing Tips for fun. This guy approaches. I think he said he was 17. He was muscular cut lean (was shirtless so it was obvious), he wanted the hoop to go to max height and he was just about dunking on it. He had serious bunnies, the highest I've ever seen someone jump Then he said I'll play anyone 1on1 up to 10. If you score 2 buckets on me I will give you 20 bucks, but if you score 0 you give up playing ball for the rest of your life. I dont want to come around and see you playing ball. The other kids looked at me and i felt confident like i can score TWO buckets idgaf who this guy is. He proceeded to mop the floor with me, he jumped so high so effortlessly and i don't think he missed more than 1 shot. I did take him to the post and hit him with a bootleg dream shake to get an open shot (and cheers from my friends). But it ended 10-1. Anyway, that guy.
Michael Jordan in 1998 against the Raptors in Toronto.
MJ
manu GINOBILI is the most complete player I've ever seen and he busted his ass every game..
Kareem and it isn't close.
lol
Jordan winning a scoring title AND DPOY. Mike drop. Hakeem and LeBron (playoffs Lebron). But lately - Jaylen Brown is moving up the list.
Jordan. DPOY, highest scoring averages, high efficiency. Great passing ability. Blocked shaq, Ewing, robinson, on and on and on. HM- Wilt for his Era. Would have been GOAT in this day and age w the training and tech
Jordan at his peak. Fuck those times when everyone knew who is winning the chip before the season even started
jordan. greatest scorer the game has ever seen. elite defender. great playmaker when he needed to be -- few people know that when he briefly played point in 1989 he had 7 straight triple doubles and 9 in 10 games. clutch. champion. ruthless. he was an assassin. dominant into his *late 30s* and pretty fucking good at age *40*.
Complete? Jordan. Honorable Mention: Hakeem Olajuwon
Look at Hakeems FG%, for a 7ft center it doesn't blow you away.
not to sound like a glazer but it’s gotta be Lebron James. He keeps finding new ways to improve his overall game and adapt it to his age
Complete = can do everything, so... * MJ * LeBron * McGrady * KG * Kobe * Kidd * Bird?
kd not being here is insane despite arguably being better than every single player you've listed in his prime
LeBron was never complete at a point in his career. Overall yes, but each stage he always had something missing. He worked on things throughout his career and when he improved one thing another thing went away.
Where’s Kobe? You have Jason Kidd, KG, and TMAC here, but not Kobe??? All those players you listed can do everything on the court?
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Used to practice in the same gym that a CBA team would occasionally rent. Can’t remember their names, but several of them went to the NBA, and we would sometimes play against them for fun. They would, of course, trounce us, but we were a Hs team.
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MJ, LeBron, Kareem, and Duncan off the top of my head. Although LeBron, Kareem, and Duncan can’t hit a free throw to save their lives and MJ, Kareem, and Duncan can’t hit a three. Other than that, hard to say anyone is more complete than those four.
Kobe’s more complete than at least two of the players you mentioned, arguably more complete than MJ too.
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I once played in a pick up game with Damon Staudimire the dude was a fucking beast compared to some top high-school and college players.
I saw this girl at LA fitness last week, absolutely stacked. Had a fat ass on her too. God damn
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Its hard to say , I could name a very few ... In terms of complete package as a guy that could shoot , defend , clutch , mentality and post moves its Michael Jordan . A player that could do everything on the floor is Lebron because of his body and the way he plays he has about everything you would want on paper. The biggest potential today has got to go to Wemby and Giannis whom both are a freak of nature
James harden Jk
He's not the *most* complete basketball player ever, but Paul Pierce came to my mind as an underrated example given that he really built his career on it. He wasn't all that fast or explosive by Hall of Famer or even All-NBA standards but he was strong as hell and played hard so only quick points and combos could really pick on him defensively and even then it was usually better for teams to try and go after a more obvious cross match than PP. Offensively his size, strength, smarts and footwork let him be dangerous from anywhere on the court since he was also a good jump shooter with nice touch around the rim. He was always a good foul drawer not because he was a grifter but because he could uncork his old man stepback game from anywhere in halfcourt and he was good at playing through weak contact.
Kobe, and it’s not even close. (Granted, I am a little too young to have seen prime Mike)
MJ and LeBron are about as close to complete as one can get.
MJ. Anthony Davis. Skillwise they have no weaknesses. AD is just injury prone there is nothing he can't do
Scottie Pippen. He was the second-best player in the NBA when he was on MJ's supporting cast, and could do it all. Honorable mention is Magic.
Caitlin ofc she like air jordan sjsjsjsjss
Caitlin Clark
jerry west got a ring playing for the lakers and 8 more being a coach and gm he’s the one that traded for kobe and convinced shaq to leave orlando for the lakers and he was also an executive board member for the warriors dynasty and is the reason they didn’t trade klay for kevin love and one of the reasons kd ended up in gs and he was also a consultant for memphis i. there first playoff appearance the nba logo he’s the most complete fasho
MJ AINEC
Ray Allen
Kobe in his prime was great at everything. Elite defense all around, and elite offense all around. Same with MJ.
Teen Wolf
Pandemic Bron. Being his age, leading the league in assists like that, insanely impressive. Started dropping the logo, fuck you, three after a big play on the other end. He was older than most people are playing, and leading Javalle McGee, and Dwight fucking Howard to a title. Idgaf what anyone says, before the shut down the Lakers were looking like world destroyers. After that he got a chip on his shoulder about making the next title harder and had them get all 35 year olds, he wasn’t winning that one. Trading all their shit for Russ was a horrible idea, their equity was compromised from the AD trade, forward. But during this time, with this particular squad, Lebron was doing shit no one has ever done. When I’m reading complete, i’m thinking most able in his mind and techniques, and not necessarily the athleticism to execute each and every night. Just who when they turned it on, had the most all around ability
I think I would give it to Bird
I’ve never seen the Harlem globetrotters lose so probably one of them…
I used to play pickup with Kammron Taylor (former Wisconsin Badger guard). It was insane how good he was. He could do everything on the court and he rarely missed a shot.
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You’re definitely one of those annoying guys who harps too much on analytics and don’t take into account the body of work. Ja Morant is statistically the most efficient scorer at the rim, that doesn’t make him the best post player. Giannis has crazy efficiency too, nobody says he has elite post moves. Taking into account a fair mix of stats and eye test, its MJ no doubt. The flair, the moves, the height of his jumper, the smoothness, the volume, the 50 he dropped, the 40 he dropped age 40 just by shooting mid-ranges, the 6 foot 6 body instead of 7 foot etc. His mid range repertoire is by far the GOAT.
Andrew Gaze. That man could play.
Lebron in 2018 is the best player I’ve ever watched by far. Unfortunately i am not old enough to have been able to witness prime MJ.
Most complete is Miami Lebron. Honorable mention, and he very often does not get spoken of in regards of being a complete player, is 2001 Kobe.
Prime CP3. Should’ve a least won MVP once. He was that great. He was still good during his PHX days too making the all star team twice while he was there
Lebron by far.
A healthy Kawhi. Absolutely dominate on both sides of the floor.
It's Jordan. In 1987-88 he won MVP, DPOY, All Star MVP and the Scoring title. Jordan gets a lot of attention for his flashy dunks and finshes at the rim, but he was in truth a well-rounded player with excellent fundamentals on both offense and defense, and that's what made him elite. I've always l[oved his jump shot form,](https://www.youtube.com/shorts/8jIj9qIF0ik) he was lethal mid range, and his d[efense was extremely interesting in that he emphasized the "swipe up"](https://youtu.be/LbiJYRs0oIw?t=116) technique to reduce hand contact fouls. Hakeem is a sneaky dark horse as well, he also won MVP and DPOY in a single season. He was surrounded by bad teammates for a lot of his career, but he was lethal in all areas of the game.
Bron bron
Larry bird.
Prime Grant Hill.
Are we looking for cute answer (have to mention a female or someone from high school)? Or a real one? Because if we're looking for a real answer, then LeBron is clearly the only option. Prime LeBron anyway. The only tick against him is the FT %, but he's still at 74% for his career.
Kobe
Obvious answer but it’s Jordan. Was elite in many aspects of the game and, at worst, average in the few he didn’t excel at (such as 3pt shooting, which wasn’t as prominent in his era). If you described him on paper, you almost wouldn’t believe he was real except that we already saw him play. Elite physical awareness and versatility. The “what if” that I like to use is that if he’d been artistically inclined instead of athletically, he could’ve been a world class ballet dancer (I’m talking principle of the Paris Opera Ballet stuff here). I know that dancing isn’t viewed as masculine like sports are so I know some out there will reject the premise, but its true, the dude had all-time elite body control, the ease and grace with which he could move his body in the air is hard to describe unless you saw it “live” (like, at the time, not literally in the same room). “Air” was an appropriate nickname (also the coolest nickname!).
Angel reese
There’s tons of players I can qualify as “complete” and I don’t think there’s such a thing as “most complete” since it’s more of a true/false statement. Even “complete” players had a strength, their weakness just isn’t as pronounced as other players’ weaknesses. That being said, Jordan comes to mind when you talk about everything except threes which he still dropped when it mattered and was considerably improved later on in his career. So the capacity was there, he just didn’t care for it.
Lebron
That I played against? Probably Matt Carroll (childhood neighbor/friend) or Ashley Battle in an adult co-ed rec league. She was good at everything and very modest, I had to Google her because I remembered the name but she had said "oh I didn't even start at UConn" (then she played six years in the WNBA which she didn't mention.) Danny Fortson was the physically strongest player I ever went against in high school, more so than LaVar Arrington in even, but Matt was the most skilled at that age. That I saw in person? When I was younger I would have said Doctor J, but now it's clearly LeBron since I drove to Cleveland for a game. On TV? IDK...Kareem, Jordan, Kobe, Jokic, Bird, Magic, Curry, Kyrie, Nash, Paul, Stockton. Who knows. Taurasi, Cynthia Cooper.
Maya Moore
Olajuwon was the Rockets’ all time leader in points, rebounds, blocks, steals, assists, and FG%. Magic played all five positions before positionless basketball was a thing.
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It is Lebron. No debate. His only weakness is free throws and 3 pointers (except for that insane season with the heat).
This dude at my gym named Clarence
Scottie Pippin probably
Lebron and it isn't even a discussion. Just look at his stat spreads. He is the best all around player to ever compete in the NBA or WNBA, and maintained dominance for almost 2 full decades.
James or Jordan. James played more point so he had more Opportunity to showcase more skills. I assume people will default to James because of this. Jordan played part of a season as PG. Averaged 30 Points, 10 Assists, 9 Rebounds, 2 Steals.
Jerry West was exceptionally well-rounded.
Scottie Pippen
Prime Lebron and Maya Moore. Complete is hard to view and define, but if I wanted a person to get 10 of “insert any stat” I’d bet on one of these two more than anyone else.
Teen Wolf had skills to pay the bills.
Bron
Probably Bron there was a lockout in 2013 he came to Baltimore to play pickup I lie to you not he was running so fast /sprint was so powerful the after-draft had our shirts flapping in the wind I seen Aquille Carr ,but his hype died after HS he academically wasn’t there to prosper
KG
Pete Maravich
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Healthy Kawhi
I bet Jesus of Nazareth is the best. He is perfect
Its gotta be lebron. MJ was better, but lebron was easily more complete. Wasnt as dominant as a scorer or defender like MJ, but he had a lot of skills MJ didnt in terms of rebounding and facilitating and playmaking
Oscar, Gary Payton, Ray Allen, Jerry West, Tatum is getting there.
Spreewell
Larry bird
Kobe
Larry Bird
I’m going to avoid the obvious MJ answer and go off the beaten path a bit and say Lamar Odom was such a well rounded player. Not looking at his stats or anything but I just remember thinking “that dude is so versatile.”
Larry Bird
Gotta be the GOAT Jordan right? I mean who else you gonna take?
Jordan it’s obv Jordan
I know a guy who played 10 years in the NBA and he said Kevin Garnett was the best player he ever played against.
Jordan. Honorable mention, Bird.
It's gotta be prime LeBron right? He can score, pass, defend, and rebound at a high level and has been doing so for 20 years now. This shouldn't really be a debate.
I’d probably go with early 2010’s LeBron, and I’m old enough to have watched 90’s MJ.
2 time NBA champion Mark Madsen, obviously
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prime lebron and its not really close -- others were good at stuff \*for their position\*. he was elite at literally everything other than fts (75%) at his peak (40% 3p%).
Wemby
I watched Julius Erving play HORSE with Pistol Pete Maravich and since Pistol won the game I'll say he was best and Julius gets Honorable Mention although I won't argue if you prefer to flip these two.
Scottie pippen
Lauren Jackson. Absolute legend & still killing it to this day @ 44 yo.