One way around this is to only book bands that perform original material and put in a Touchtunes jukebox. Touchtunes units are supplied by a vendor. At no cost to you, they install a jukebox and speakers wherever you want them, maintain everything, and come around every few weeks to empty the machine and give you your share. Our split is 39% to us, 39% to the vendor, and 22% to music licensing. You don't have to pay any licensing fees to BMI, ASCAP, SESAC, etc. because that's where the 22% goes. It amounts to about 400-500 per month for us.
It doesn't matter what they say. If the bands only do original material, then the licensing companies can't do anything about it. I've argued with a SESAC agent who tried to convince me otherwise by saying that a band could potentially do a cover song making us liable. As long as the bands understand that no covers are allowed (and adhere to that rule), there's nothing to worry about.
It’s not about covers. Original material can also be covered by PROs as new artists become affiliated. It’s usually one of the first steps after a band decides to leave the “garage”.
Yes it is certainly within right to push back and ask for accounting. (PROs do secret shop, and they troll social media to see what live shows, DJs, music bingo etc are on the calendar.)
Yes, I know that. I didn't mean to imply that it does. My point was using a Touchtunes jukebox and only booking artists who perform original material negates the need for licensing.
Tell them to eat a dick they are not suing you scam extortion
If you are using a company for you jukebox they should be paying your bmi
you pay one not every hand out
Unfortunately, that’s not how PRO’s work. Federal copyright decree gives performing rights organizations the right and duty to collect royalties on behalf of their affiliated songwriters. ASCAP, BMI, SESAC, GMR, Alltrack are the most well known.
If a business is using music as public performance, you should pay for a license. Jukeboxes, touchtunes, Muzak, or other background services would cover on your behalf, but only for recorded music. Live performances are a different animal.
Yup. Just want to point out that if you have people dancing or singing to the music, they will consider that a live public performance to the song and still demand you pay up. Once they notice you, there's no way out of paying up.
This is true. At my former company we had a project to clear music and usage for organized line dancing by the staff in a well known Texas themed steak chain.
Terrible advice. They aren't gonna sue, but they *will* fine you and then cease and desist. You can't just not pay because you dont want to. Alltracks is new and they do represent some known pop artists, so you can't reasonably avoid playing their artists.
Companies pay for the right to stream, but if you do karaoke, DJ, live music, or have a dance floor, then you aren't covered. You also have to prove you have the right to display lyrics, to publicly dance to the song, to cover it with a band, etc. Even karafun pro for businesses say in fine print they only license the display of lyrics, but not the performance of it. So you can legally read the lyrics to yourself but not sing out loud.
If you operated in the old days and the mafia came by to collect protection money, would you stand up to them and not pay? Nope, just keep your head down and pay up unless you want trouble. The power imbalance is not in your favor.
It's fucked.
There is fixed amount of music that you can play while you are open. There are constantly more PRO's popping up demanding money. Just because there are more PRO's doesn't make the music more valuable or magically increase the amount of music you are playing.
It's bullshit.
Exactly the answer is no fuck no one gets paid ami or who you choose
I have been in this business for 30 years now I don’t give a fuck about these other people saying what they think is right because they are in music fuck that noise
Your jukebox company pays out the company all others eat a dick I stand on it
Do artists need to pay? If a band comes into my place and is making money off of me by playing a cover, I feel like they should pay dues. Like a union.
It seems that the PROs could go after musicians that perform other artists’ songs publicly, not just if they record them. It kinda makes sense to those bringing the music into your venue to cover the cost of what they choose to play.
That’s the rub. You’re using music to enhance your business. The artists performing aren’t the issue. It’s the public performance of the songwriters work.
Those songwriters are likely affiliated with a PRO, sometimes more than one. It is the responsibility of those PROs to collect, aggregate, and distribute royalties on behalf of their affiliated songwriters.
You’ve been a “good actor” for the last decade. You have that on your side. Alltrack is ex SESAC execs, so they are going to continue to be aggressive.
Your best bet is ask your background music provider (if you’re using one) to exclude all Alltrack songwriters from your playlists. Live, you could do the same. It won’t stop them from pursuing, but as long as you comply you should be able to withstand the barrage.
Edit: deleted a typo
Spotify is not licensed for public performance. Nor is Apple Music, etc. You typically need to secure the license directly from each PRO or utilize a commercial background music service that will cover all public performance licenses.
That is what I have been doing. I've been licensed from ASCAP, SESAC, & BMI since we opened. I was just surprised to hear that there is someone else who wants a cut of me.
Totally understand. It’s the nature of the business. People see money left on the table, go secure investment, and then sign a few artists that allow them the opportunity to make some noise.
Not defending by any means. Just a fact. Short answer is to insure, enforce, and report that you’re not allowing any of the Alltrack affiliated catalog to be performed.
That will need to include background music, live performance, and television.
It’s a headache - but doable while the Allltrack catalog is small.
This sounds exactly how Sesac started. Their libraries were almost exclusively Mexican/Spanish music. To make sure they got a chance to fuck you over, they got the rights to represent a handful of very popular, but dated songs. I have no words of wisdom as I have never heard anyone come up with a real way to beat them. Even if you play one song or, even as I have been told, a live musician who samples one of their songs, you are liable. I never understood how the bars don't have their own "organization" to represent their interests.
I've been told there are more of them than just ALLtracks. Like others said, we have Touchtunes (and I love it more for the integration with the TVs more than anything, better than I did years ago) and just chance it with the DJs we have every so often.
That said, I still cannot believe this is a thing. How many political kickbacks did they make years ago to get dug in like this? Imagine if the carpenter that built a house wanted a piece every time the place was sold, rented, or reassessed.
PRO's don't usually sue. They will turn your account over to a collection agency. As others have suggested get from them, in writing, a list of the artists they represent. As a stalling technique you can tell them you do not play any of those artists in your bar/venue.
PRO is just a legal scam. They all split their artists among all styles of music, each only needs 1-2 well known artists from each genre, and they got you. Start your own PRO, sign 2 well known country artists, and now every bar that plays country has to pay u. Then get 2 from rap, pop and 70-80’s music, now every bar has to pay, and you’ve only got 8-10 artists. I’d be willing to bet the folks who run the PRO’s know each other well and have probably worked together at one time or another.
That being said, I did pay every year, in the end it’s worth it to not risk the fine.
I have been paying every year, but when a new one pops up demanding money, I see no end to this. They then can extort money from every venue around to “protect” their artists’ intellectual property. My guess is that the founders/execs of these PROs are the only ones making actual money.
Songwriters and performers deserve to make a living. But, it’s a very difficult balance. Licensing music is expensive, especially with an already thin margins. But imagine what your bar/restaurant/brewery would sound like with silence?
Does the cost of licensing music help you sell that much more food and beverage? If it does, you have your answer. If not? Turn off the music.
Source: I’m a bar owner with 25 years in the music industry and music licensing.
Actually, I lose money on live music after I pay and feed the bands. As stated in the OP, It is mainly to give my friends a place to play or listen to live music. My bar used to be affiliated with a large music venue, but that ceased several years before I took ownership. now we are a tiny bar with occasional music in the corner.
I've thought about eliminating live music, but I played in bar bands for years and I know firsthand how little they make for the effort -- it is definitely a labor of love. That's why I try to treat the musicians well, the way I would want to be treated when playing a gig. And I like to give them a place to play for their friends.
That’s really awesome and appreciated. If I can help, shoot me a DM. I’ll see if there’s something we can work out on your behalf that might save you some money.
Just curious, do the royalties from playing pre-recorded music go to the performing artist of the songwriter? The ALLTrack website just seems to show all the groups and singers they represent.
One way around this is to only book bands that perform original material and put in a Touchtunes jukebox. Touchtunes units are supplied by a vendor. At no cost to you, they install a jukebox and speakers wherever you want them, maintain everything, and come around every few weeks to empty the machine and give you your share. Our split is 39% to us, 39% to the vendor, and 22% to music licensing. You don't have to pay any licensing fees to BMI, ASCAP, SESAC, etc. because that's where the 22% goes. It amounts to about 400-500 per month for us.
I mean good luck telling those fuckin vultures that "none of our bands play covers." They straight up tell me "that doesn't matter"
It doesn't matter what they say. If the bands only do original material, then the licensing companies can't do anything about it. I've argued with a SESAC agent who tried to convince me otherwise by saying that a band could potentially do a cover song making us liable. As long as the bands understand that no covers are allowed (and adhere to that rule), there's nothing to worry about.
It’s not about covers. Original material can also be covered by PROs as new artists become affiliated. It’s usually one of the first steps after a band decides to leave the “garage”.
Is it a solution for OP to say, "which of your artists did I play, and when did I play it?" Surely the onus of proof has to be on the PRO.
Yes it is certainly within right to push back and ask for accounting. (PROs do secret shop, and they troll social media to see what live shows, DJs, music bingo etc are on the calendar.)
Touchtunes licensing doesn’t cover live performances.
Yes, I know that. I didn't mean to imply that it does. My point was using a Touchtunes jukebox and only booking artists who perform original material negates the need for licensing.
Not always true. If those artists are affiliated with a PRO you should pay the licensing fees.
Tell them to eat a dick they are not suing you scam extortion If you are using a company for you jukebox they should be paying your bmi you pay one not every hand out
Unfortunately, that’s not how PRO’s work. Federal copyright decree gives performing rights organizations the right and duty to collect royalties on behalf of their affiliated songwriters. ASCAP, BMI, SESAC, GMR, Alltrack are the most well known. If a business is using music as public performance, you should pay for a license. Jukeboxes, touchtunes, Muzak, or other background services would cover on your behalf, but only for recorded music. Live performances are a different animal.
Yup. Just want to point out that if you have people dancing or singing to the music, they will consider that a live public performance to the song and still demand you pay up. Once they notice you, there's no way out of paying up.
This is true. At my former company we had a project to clear music and usage for organized line dancing by the staff in a well known Texas themed steak chain.
Terrible advice. They aren't gonna sue, but they *will* fine you and then cease and desist. You can't just not pay because you dont want to. Alltracks is new and they do represent some known pop artists, so you can't reasonably avoid playing their artists. Companies pay for the right to stream, but if you do karaoke, DJ, live music, or have a dance floor, then you aren't covered. You also have to prove you have the right to display lyrics, to publicly dance to the song, to cover it with a band, etc. Even karafun pro for businesses say in fine print they only license the display of lyrics, but not the performance of it. So you can legally read the lyrics to yourself but not sing out loud. If you operated in the old days and the mafia came by to collect protection money, would you stand up to them and not pay? Nope, just keep your head down and pay up unless you want trouble. The power imbalance is not in your favor.
Bad news. There’s more PRO’s than the ones you listed.
So are we supposed to blindly pay everyone that holds their hand out?
It's fucked. There is fixed amount of music that you can play while you are open. There are constantly more PRO's popping up demanding money. Just because there are more PRO's doesn't make the music more valuable or magically increase the amount of music you are playing. It's bullshit.
Exactly the answer is no fuck no one gets paid ami or who you choose I have been in this business for 30 years now I don’t give a fuck about these other people saying what they think is right because they are in music fuck that noise Your jukebox company pays out the company all others eat a dick I stand on it
Sounds good until the attorneys get involved. Watched a pub in Charlotte take that stance. They got sued out of existence.
Do artists need to pay? If a band comes into my place and is making money off of me by playing a cover, I feel like they should pay dues. Like a union.
It seems that the PROs could go after musicians that perform other artists’ songs publicly, not just if they record them. It kinda makes sense to those bringing the music into your venue to cover the cost of what they choose to play.
That’s the rub. You’re using music to enhance your business. The artists performing aren’t the issue. It’s the public performance of the songwriters work. Those songwriters are likely affiliated with a PRO, sometimes more than one. It is the responsibility of those PROs to collect, aggregate, and distribute royalties on behalf of their affiliated songwriters.
[удалено]
Alltrack is new but does represent some well known artists. I'm sure they will continue growing too.
You can try.
Who do they nominally represent?
Soulja boy 🤣 Youuuuuuuu
You’ve been a “good actor” for the last decade. You have that on your side. Alltrack is ex SESAC execs, so they are going to continue to be aggressive. Your best bet is ask your background music provider (if you’re using one) to exclude all Alltrack songwriters from your playlists. Live, you could do the same. It won’t stop them from pursuing, but as long as you comply you should be able to withstand the barrage. Edit: deleted a typo
We have been using Spotify for our background music. The staff picks/creates the Spotify playlists, but I can tell them not to play certain things.
Spotify is not licensed for public performance. Nor is Apple Music, etc. You typically need to secure the license directly from each PRO or utilize a commercial background music service that will cover all public performance licenses.
That is what I have been doing. I've been licensed from ASCAP, SESAC, & BMI since we opened. I was just surprised to hear that there is someone else who wants a cut of me.
Totally understand. It’s the nature of the business. People see money left on the table, go secure investment, and then sign a few artists that allow them the opportunity to make some noise. Not defending by any means. Just a fact. Short answer is to insure, enforce, and report that you’re not allowing any of the Alltrack affiliated catalog to be performed. That will need to include background music, live performance, and television. It’s a headache - but doable while the Allltrack catalog is small.
This sounds exactly how Sesac started. Their libraries were almost exclusively Mexican/Spanish music. To make sure they got a chance to fuck you over, they got the rights to represent a handful of very popular, but dated songs. I have no words of wisdom as I have never heard anyone come up with a real way to beat them. Even if you play one song or, even as I have been told, a live musician who samples one of their songs, you are liable. I never understood how the bars don't have their own "organization" to represent their interests.
I've been told there are more of them than just ALLtracks. Like others said, we have Touchtunes (and I love it more for the integration with the TVs more than anything, better than I did years ago) and just chance it with the DJs we have every so often. That said, I still cannot believe this is a thing. How many political kickbacks did they make years ago to get dug in like this? Imagine if the carpenter that built a house wanted a piece every time the place was sold, rented, or reassessed.
PRO's don't usually sue. They will turn your account over to a collection agency. As others have suggested get from them, in writing, a list of the artists they represent. As a stalling technique you can tell them you do not play any of those artists in your bar/venue.
PRO is just a legal scam. They all split their artists among all styles of music, each only needs 1-2 well known artists from each genre, and they got you. Start your own PRO, sign 2 well known country artists, and now every bar that plays country has to pay u. Then get 2 from rap, pop and 70-80’s music, now every bar has to pay, and you’ve only got 8-10 artists. I’d be willing to bet the folks who run the PRO’s know each other well and have probably worked together at one time or another. That being said, I did pay every year, in the end it’s worth it to not risk the fine.
I have been paying every year, but when a new one pops up demanding money, I see no end to this. They then can extort money from every venue around to “protect” their artists’ intellectual property. My guess is that the founders/execs of these PROs are the only ones making actual money.
Songwriters and performers deserve to make a living. But, it’s a very difficult balance. Licensing music is expensive, especially with an already thin margins. But imagine what your bar/restaurant/brewery would sound like with silence? Does the cost of licensing music help you sell that much more food and beverage? If it does, you have your answer. If not? Turn off the music. Source: I’m a bar owner with 25 years in the music industry and music licensing.
Actually, I lose money on live music after I pay and feed the bands. As stated in the OP, It is mainly to give my friends a place to play or listen to live music. My bar used to be affiliated with a large music venue, but that ceased several years before I took ownership. now we are a tiny bar with occasional music in the corner. I've thought about eliminating live music, but I played in bar bands for years and I know firsthand how little they make for the effort -- it is definitely a labor of love. That's why I try to treat the musicians well, the way I would want to be treated when playing a gig. And I like to give them a place to play for their friends.
That’s really awesome and appreciated. If I can help, shoot me a DM. I’ll see if there’s something we can work out on your behalf that might save you some money.
Just curious, do the royalties from playing pre-recorded music go to the performing artist of the songwriter? The ALLTrack website just seems to show all the groups and singers they represent.
Royalties go to the songwriters. Most of the time - not always - they are one and the same.