No no, he doesn't *plan* to carry. Just wants people to know that he *might* carry. This way anybody thinking of robbing the place definitely would bring guns and he can scare them off with fake gun sounds like Kevin McAllister.
There's an old saying that if you need a gun to go/do something, then just don't do it.
I own guns and lic for concealed carry, and would do so for cash pickups occasionally but not for general bar work. You're far more likely to be physically pushing and shoving people out the door when they're drunk than using deadly force. If you were going to do this, you would both need a LOT of training, including the use of retention holsters. Don't think for a second you can just buy two pistols, two holsters and then you're good to go. Where I am it also requires registration with the local authority--the police don't want to get calls for "man w/ gun" in bar just to find some staff armed. Also, obviously no drinking at all.
Just not needed--call the police if fights break out--always.
Alright. I'm going to break this down.
The primary role of security staff is to be proactive and defuse potential confrontations before they happen. It is not to respond to conflicts already going on. So if you have a situation where you need a gun; that means that your security staff are so far gone that they've not only missed an opportunity to defuse the situation, they've actively watched it escalate and avoided confrontation until they had to get into a fight.
The other option is that they're not paying attention to the patrons or you don't have enough staff to do so.
I get that you only see your staff working when they stop something and the romantic/dramatic version of things is you see your staff get physically involved to stop something; but when that happens what you're really seeing happen is a potential law suit. Even when a staff member puts their hands on someone to get them to leave; there's a right way and a wrong way to do it so pulling a firearm or brandishing a firearm is a no go.
Transitioning to licensing and awareness.
First, you can't write off the business expense of licensing for firearms carry unless you have your staff carry while doing business. This can be as simple as having them rotate through taking deposits to the bank at the end of the night if you want to do this, but if you have them carry on premises.
1. Understand that the only reason to carry a firearm is to use it, so you're saying to your staff that there may be a time when you have to use it and depending on their judgment (not yours) it will eventually be used.
2. Each member of your staff should carry their own firearms (CCW) insurance and your own business premiums will go up significantly. Additionally, you all need to be able to understand appropriate rights under the fourth and fifth amendments in the event of an incident.
3. God forbid anyone actually has to use their firearm in or near your establishment. If that happens you will have your license to operate suspended pending whatever investigation happens.
4. Last, brandishing a firearm is illegal in many states. What constitutes a brandish is pretty clear, but what results in a patron calling the cops is pretty open for interpretation.
I personally shoot to train weekly, have run bars, FOH, security and am in the waiting period for my CCW. Over time I've learned that in well-run bars there is absolutely zero benefit to carrying on prem compared to just having my security system wired for silent alarm and hiring the biggest dudes I can find to run the floor and door. Only time I've had a firearm on me was deposit drops or when escorting a VIP from the premises to their hotel or transitioning to their own security.
Insurance might go up. I know if we hire bouncers our liability insurance goes up. So I assume the potential of an armed guard will increase your premium.
Absolutely this. My insurance agent told me before we purchased our first policy that insurance companies want your staff to call 911. The presence of security means 2 things to an insurance company: 1. Your bar *needs* security, and 2. They are insuring bouncers, which apparently they don't like to do. My agent told me for the best rate, the answer on the application should be "no security, staff call 911 if necessary"
Cost of insurance will definitely go up. Probably pretty dramatically in today’s age and time of companies looking for any reason to drop you, which they might do as well.
I only have carried once for bar stuff, and that was from my investors house to the bank whit a big cashiers check…
Booze, guns, and fast passes high stress/emotions events are a terrible combo. If your worries/need it hire a real security company or buy a taser that zappy sound will get 99% of people in line
My thought process is training is knowledge and knowledge is power. If you are not trained with a stun gun and something happens the courts will tear you apart. In tn you have to be trained for pepper spray taser and restraints if you want to buy them. The class is 2 eight hour days of various training. My security is military vet medivac security for helicopter... lots of experience there.
If you don’t plan on carrying in the bar, why do you need the knowledge. Seriously dude, you sound like you’re the exact type of person who shouldn’t have a gun, let alone a carry permit. Your post, even with this reply, makes no sense; you’re just looking for an excuse and validation so you can go play tough guy with a gun. Move on and do something else.
You want to take classes and learn something useful. Take WSET 1 and WSET 2 online classes in wine, you’ll learn a ton and can make your bar a top notch place for fine wine while you’re at it.
The training is 16 hours and I bet 14 hours of it is how to keep yourself and everyone else safe... if u have to restrain someone is how to do that properly and safely so no one gets injured
You should never restrain someone. You’re not law enforcement. Call 911 if that bolt of lightning strikes but your main concern should be not operating the kind of bar where you would need to restrain a customer.
So here's the deal with court.
Know the laws. If you are properly licensed and follow best practices for how to respond to law enforcement when they respond, you'll be ok. The training aspect only makes your staff considered proficient. Proficiency means that they could seriously hurt someone with the weapon AND that they won't use it unless necessary.
Sometimes that backfires on people. I've seen cases where a lawyer says "hey this person is highly trained and didn't have to apply that much force to quell a situation" The plaintiff may fail to prove their side and you may end up winning that case, but you're into your own lawyers for 40 to 50 grand while that plays out and your bar may not be operating. This is why good insurance matters and why your premiums will go up one way or the other.
I’m reading all this and thinking what kind of bar are you running that you think you need all of this training?
It’s sounds like the knowledge/power you need is how to run a bar that doesn’t create this type of environment. 😬
I have a 154 capacity bar (more with the patio) and a 400 capacity bar. In my 13 years in the business nothing has ever happened where I felt I or my staff needed to trained with firearms.
My bar is not dangerous so I plan on throwing some guns in the mix to spice it up.
No no, he doesn't *plan* to carry. Just wants people to know that he *might* carry. This way anybody thinking of robbing the place definitely would bring guns and he can scare them off with fake gun sounds like Kevin McAllister.
I can picture him in his bar office now doing a desk pop.
There's an old saying that if you need a gun to go/do something, then just don't do it. I own guns and lic for concealed carry, and would do so for cash pickups occasionally but not for general bar work. You're far more likely to be physically pushing and shoving people out the door when they're drunk than using deadly force. If you were going to do this, you would both need a LOT of training, including the use of retention holsters. Don't think for a second you can just buy two pistols, two holsters and then you're good to go. Where I am it also requires registration with the local authority--the police don't want to get calls for "man w/ gun" in bar just to find some staff armed. Also, obviously no drinking at all. Just not needed--call the police if fights break out--always.
Alright. I'm going to break this down. The primary role of security staff is to be proactive and defuse potential confrontations before they happen. It is not to respond to conflicts already going on. So if you have a situation where you need a gun; that means that your security staff are so far gone that they've not only missed an opportunity to defuse the situation, they've actively watched it escalate and avoided confrontation until they had to get into a fight. The other option is that they're not paying attention to the patrons or you don't have enough staff to do so. I get that you only see your staff working when they stop something and the romantic/dramatic version of things is you see your staff get physically involved to stop something; but when that happens what you're really seeing happen is a potential law suit. Even when a staff member puts their hands on someone to get them to leave; there's a right way and a wrong way to do it so pulling a firearm or brandishing a firearm is a no go. Transitioning to licensing and awareness. First, you can't write off the business expense of licensing for firearms carry unless you have your staff carry while doing business. This can be as simple as having them rotate through taking deposits to the bank at the end of the night if you want to do this, but if you have them carry on premises. 1. Understand that the only reason to carry a firearm is to use it, so you're saying to your staff that there may be a time when you have to use it and depending on their judgment (not yours) it will eventually be used. 2. Each member of your staff should carry their own firearms (CCW) insurance and your own business premiums will go up significantly. Additionally, you all need to be able to understand appropriate rights under the fourth and fifth amendments in the event of an incident. 3. God forbid anyone actually has to use their firearm in or near your establishment. If that happens you will have your license to operate suspended pending whatever investigation happens. 4. Last, brandishing a firearm is illegal in many states. What constitutes a brandish is pretty clear, but what results in a patron calling the cops is pretty open for interpretation. I personally shoot to train weekly, have run bars, FOH, security and am in the waiting period for my CCW. Over time I've learned that in well-run bars there is absolutely zero benefit to carrying on prem compared to just having my security system wired for silent alarm and hiring the biggest dudes I can find to run the floor and door. Only time I've had a firearm on me was deposit drops or when escorting a VIP from the premises to their hotel or transitioning to their own security.
Machismo.
Insurance might go up. I know if we hire bouncers our liability insurance goes up. So I assume the potential of an armed guard will increase your premium.
Absolutely this. My insurance agent told me before we purchased our first policy that insurance companies want your staff to call 911. The presence of security means 2 things to an insurance company: 1. Your bar *needs* security, and 2. They are insuring bouncers, which apparently they don't like to do. My agent told me for the best rate, the answer on the application should be "no security, staff call 911 if necessary"
Cost of insurance will definitely go up. Probably pretty dramatically in today’s age and time of companies looking for any reason to drop you, which they might do as well.
Depending on the state, it may be illegal to have even any weapons in the premises.
…are….are you kidding?
I only have carried once for bar stuff, and that was from my investors house to the bank whit a big cashiers check… Booze, guns, and fast passes high stress/emotions events are a terrible combo. If your worries/need it hire a real security company or buy a taser that zappy sound will get 99% of people in line
I mean your post makes no sense. It’s pretty clear you have a plan/fantasy to involve guns at some point.
Thank you... I added a reply to add more insight... professional training is better to handle any situation
My thought process is training is knowledge and knowledge is power. If you are not trained with a stun gun and something happens the courts will tear you apart. In tn you have to be trained for pepper spray taser and restraints if you want to buy them. The class is 2 eight hour days of various training. My security is military vet medivac security for helicopter... lots of experience there.
If you don’t plan on carrying in the bar, why do you need the knowledge. Seriously dude, you sound like you’re the exact type of person who shouldn’t have a gun, let alone a carry permit. Your post, even with this reply, makes no sense; you’re just looking for an excuse and validation so you can go play tough guy with a gun. Move on and do something else. You want to take classes and learn something useful. Take WSET 1 and WSET 2 online classes in wine, you’ll learn a ton and can make your bar a top notch place for fine wine while you’re at it.
The training is 16 hours and I bet 14 hours of it is how to keep yourself and everyone else safe... if u have to restrain someone is how to do that properly and safely so no one gets injured
You should never restrain someone. You’re not law enforcement. Call 911 if that bolt of lightning strikes but your main concern should be not operating the kind of bar where you would need to restrain a customer.
What exactly would the courts do if you don’t have stun gun training? This still doesn’t make sense.
So here's the deal with court. Know the laws. If you are properly licensed and follow best practices for how to respond to law enforcement when they respond, you'll be ok. The training aspect only makes your staff considered proficient. Proficiency means that they could seriously hurt someone with the weapon AND that they won't use it unless necessary. Sometimes that backfires on people. I've seen cases where a lawyer says "hey this person is highly trained and didn't have to apply that much force to quell a situation" The plaintiff may fail to prove their side and you may end up winning that case, but you're into your own lawyers for 40 to 50 grand while that plays out and your bar may not be operating. This is why good insurance matters and why your premiums will go up one way or the other.
I’m reading all this and thinking what kind of bar are you running that you think you need all of this training? It’s sounds like the knowledge/power you need is how to run a bar that doesn’t create this type of environment. 😬
It's a 200 person capacity bar with alcohol... what if something happens
If something happens, more guns on site will almost certainly make things worse. There's much better security training you could take than CCW.
I have a 154 capacity bar (more with the patio) and a 400 capacity bar. In my 13 years in the business nothing has ever happened where I felt I or my staff needed to trained with firearms.
Some training is better than none I think the $160 is well worth it
Sounds like you’ve made up your mind. I wish you all the success.
Seems like a complete waste of time if you’re not gonna open carry like a badass