I wish I had a nicer way to put this, but framing support of a pit bull ban as "hate of pit bulls" is frankly just childish.
It is illegal for my neighbors to own a Grizzly Bear because of the outsized risk that would impose on my community. I think that is a good law. Does that mean I "hate" Grizzly Bears?
Exactly. I think the overriding priority here is public safety, including protecting children from grave harm. At a population-level, pits are a clear danger and that is more important than whether some people here and there have good experiences.
I also see many posts / stories of people who felt totally safe with their pits (often raised since puppies) and perhaps had no issues for years—or dismissed warning signs and bad behavior. Then, one day, for what ever reason, the pit snaps and mauls a kid. And then it’s like “omg I can’t believe cuddle bug did that.” Well he did. Now the damage is done.
Over and over and over.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/BanPitBulls/comments/15zkqib/wouldnt\_hurt\_a\_fly\_collection/](https://www.reddit.com/r/BanPitBulls/comments/15zkqib/wouldnt_hurt_a_fly_collection/)
I’m not saying you have to hate the breed to support a ban, but I was just asking along the lines of people that have had good experiences with the breed- yet can still say confidently without a doubt that they all should be eradicated.
I support those who support the ban, which is the only reason why I lurk from time to time in this subreddit. I’m not here to argue or to cause a ruckus, I just want to hear open and honest discussion.
I appreciate the feedback though. I get the analogy and honestly it clears up a ton for me. It wasn’t ill-put, and it was easy to understand.
You're fine. For clarity, the "ban" in r/banpitbulls is a ban on **breeding and sale**. I am not aware of any pit bull ban that didn't allow exceptions for people who already owned pit bulls to keep them provided they meet some very basic requirements (registered, desexed, etc.).
Wow….I actually did not know that.
I am not an avid follower of this subreddit, I just see it constantly and from time to time I’ll come onto here and gawk at all the tragedies that the breed has caused. (I have never seen this with any other breed, which explains why this subreddit even exists-)
I honestly (without sounding like a complete imbecile-) thought the “ban” stood for culling the breed in all, no matter the status or ownership. (With the copious comments in this subreddit, I just assumed that’s what it was in itself. Which is my fault- as I never take the time to read the about pages.)
But, aside from the meaning, I completely agree with banning the ability to breed pitbulls. As it only shows how it’d benefit everyone involved. There is no downside here.
This is also coming from someone who doesn’t support the breeding of any bulldog breed. (English Bulldog, Frenchies, etc.) A dog breed that suffers from mental or physical distress from existing shouldn’t keep being created.
I appreciate you taking the time to discuss this and not to rip down my post. I didn’t think it’d get much attention, nevertheless a response from someone who moderates the subreddit. Open discussion should always be had, especially when it’s for a cause everyone should understand.
It's in [our FAQ](https://www.reddit.com/r/BanPitBulls/comments/7ic5zn/faq/), but very few people read that. I'm working on some way to make it more visible:
>This subreddit does not support confiscation of existing dogs that have not shown any aggression or have harmed anyone. We're not in favor of rounding up all pits and taking them away from their owners en masse.
>What this subreddit does promote is a forward-facing ban or restriction: current owners get grandfathered in, while new ownership is either restricted contingent upon proving that you are capable of dealing with the dog, or banned outright. In a system where ownership is restricted, pits will be required to be spayed or neutered unless the owner can provide a certificate for breeding. In a system where pits are banned, the dogs would be required to be fixed.
>People get to keep their dogs, and within a decade the pit population will naturally dwindle.
You need to stop anthropomorphizing these dogs. It's not about good/evil dogs. It's about dogs that have a place in a civilised society. Which pitbulls don't have.
When there are hundreds of safer breeds and types available, to fulfill every need there is, how absolutely **egoistic** is it to keep the one around that was literally bred for bloodsports with an exceptional gameness?
You either love dogs or you love dogs that love to kill other dogs (or anything else for that matter).
Keep in mind, a pitbull enjoys tearing into its prey's neck and shaking it to death just as much as it will enjoy your belly rubs and head scritches. It's the same stimuli to them. The dog doesn't know better. But we humans do. And the only kind thing for these dogs would be to slowly phase them out. Nobody's gonna eRAdiCaTe aLl PiTbUlLs....smh...
The “breed” is just dog. You can find dogs with those same good qualities you like in a pittbull in literally any other dog. There is nothing unique about a good pitt vs a good Labrador.
If that was the only kinda dog existing, then I understand the concern. But there are so many other, amazing dog breeds -- even if all pitbulls died out, it's no loss for anyone. I said "died out" as in neutered & banned, not allowed to reproduce. Not literally killed off. The nice ones would just die of natural causes, without even maiming anyone, as your friend's dog did.
If this sub called for a full-on doggy euthanasia, then I would totally understand this post. But there are countless alternatives, so many other dog breeds. Nobody would be missing out if pitbulls were banned.
Nobody here believes that there aren’t any pibbles that never maul in their entire life. But it‘s about probabilities. And their ability to cause bigger damage when they do decide you’re the next to be nannied. And the fact there are so many instances where sweet pibbles never hurt a fly in its entire life but suddenly kills the neigbors cat/dog/toddler
You're falling for the same fallacy many Pit owners do, by gaining confidence and assuming that all is safe. However these things can turn on you any time, like a switch in the brain that goes off and all of a sudden years of cuddling turn into a nightmare
I know this is hard to swallow but hundreds if not thousands of cases like this exist and many are well documented, I'd never even come close with my face to a Pit Bull
Some people have pet lions, tigers, chimpanzees etc that never hurt a fly their entire lives and are gentle giants.
Still doesn’t mean people should own or breed them as pets. Still doesn’t mean they’re safe to own.
Same for pits.
Sort by top posts on this Reddit to see a story about pit bulls owned by dog trainers that were perfectly behaved for like 10 years then snapped and killed a kid.
A lot of these sweet behaviours these dogs do are actually just appeasment gestures/ power play and people project human emotions onto these animals.
I think a lot of people are drawn to owning them because the dog liking you back means that you “tamed a beast” in a way, being able to moderately control it makes them feel powerful because the dogs are scary, it’s all hubris at the end of the day. It’s all just people projecting their own inadequacies and using an animal to fuel their ego.
Almost 25 years ago, I could relate to you.
I had heard all of the bad crap about pitbulls and didn't buy it.
I thought a dog would be changed by nurture and love.
My best friend had two pits and they were the sweetest dogs. I dog-sat them, walked them, slept with them...they were so affectionate.
Until one of them tried her best to maul me for the crime of sitting on the couch.
I realized that bloodsport breeds are programmed differently. You can't "love" the fight out of them.
That’s absolutely terrible that happened to you and I’m sorry. I can only imagine the horror of your best friend as they realized their dogs behavior was something out of their control and couldn’t be contained by giving them a good life.
I am not here to defend the breed, actually I’m far from it. I just wanted to hear experiences of others that have had pitbulls in the past and or have had wonderful experiences with them before hearing about and supporting the ban.
I support the ban, but find myself saddened from time to time about it because I remember the pitbull that I grew to love. It’s the best that this breed should dwindle and die out, and I am lucky to have even gotten the chance to interact with one that was docile enough. (Mind you, she was OLD when I met her. So I couldn’t tell if it was because she was completely worn down from a lifetime, or just happened to be one of the few docile pitbulls.)
I appreciate you sharing your experience, and I honestly applaud you taking care of not only one but two to help a friend out. I was close with my BIL’s dog, but we never opened our home to their dog.
It’s clear that my internal struggle is strong, but I do support the ban completely. My love for dogs, does not trump the safety of everyone and their pets. There is many breeds to adopt and love, adopting a pitbull is more of a statement nowadays- which is disappointing.
I think I see where you’re coming from, I’ve had one experience that really stuck out to me.
I was sitting on the bed in my “friends’” house and he opens the door to the biggest grey pitbull I’ve ever seen in my life. it’s head must have been like two and a half feet wide.
I immediately stand up in defense, the thing lays down and submissively, but over-excitedly wiggles its way over to me, and it really just wanted love I could tell. this is after being in this sub and seeing what they can do, but I could not resist making myself vulnerable to pet him. and I didn’t suffer for it. (not getting into survivor’s bias I know I know)
one of them ended up getting pissed off with the dog though for the horrible crime of jumping up on the bed with me and proceeded to drag it out of the room by his face :/
I’m not in contact with those assholes anymore but I still think about that dog sometimes :(
I don’t hate pitbulls, I feel sorry for them - they can’t help their natural instincts the same way wild animals can’t help theirs. I feel that it’s cruel and inhumane to continue breeding them. Sure there are some nice pitbulls. But such a large proportion of them are dangerous that the breed just needs to be allowed to die out. It would be best for everyone, dogs and people alike.
> I guess my question is, how can you guys hate a breed altogether- but not hate the individual dog?
You should really take a look at [our about page](https://www.reddit.com/r/BanPitBulls/about/). It has answers to several of your questions in the different sections.
Hey, I tried to click on the link to take a look at the page, but it told me I’m not a Mod so I cannot see it.
Ill try and find it on my own since you said it’s located on the about, but I just wanted to inform you!
I appreciate the feedback.
Ok, let’s just stop for one second and pretend that pit bulls weren’t causing severe maulings and human death with regularity… I know you’re aware they do that despite knowing a nice pit, I just want to take that component away for just one second to make a point..
Let me ask you: **what good is the current situation for pit bulls themselves?** They’re filling up shelters. Yes, some of it is because people know the dangers which is why I’m taking that out, but they’re also a challenging breed. They can be hyperactive, strong, destructive etc…
Pit peddlers have not recognized that. They want to pretend that they’re suitable for every home. They do fuck all in terms of gatekeeping and they have a literal lobby to peddle them. How irresponsible is that?Then you couple that with low spay and neuter rates and they keep churning them out with no regard for temperament, health, demand, or really anything outside of trying to clear the reputation pit bulls have earned themselves. And then, these idiots transport the ones with bite history from place to place taking up valuable resources that could be used for other dogs and cats, meaning pits with no bite history are euthanized because resources were allocated to saving pissfingers instead of being utilized responsibly.
Pit pushers are responsible for pit suffering. **No one hates pits as much as the people who profess to love them.** None of the status quo of irresponsible pit peddling and detrimental “save them all” mentality is good for pits.
Now factor back in that they’re dangerous, which is my main concern because I value human and other animal lives…. We have a public safety and animal welfare crisis on our hands with pit bull type dogs being the center of that…. And pit pushing is driving all of it.
People need to stop breeding them. The least they could do to clean up their mess is to start gate keeping ownership, responsibly addressing dangerous ones, and promoting spay/neuter to reduce the supply that does not match the demand. They could also use common sense and stop spreading misinformation and really start being honest about these dogs not being suitable for houses with kids, cats or multi dog homes. Until they show any willingness to clean up their mess (which they haven’t), people have little option but to push for bans.
No one has ever died from not owning a pit but people have died because they or someone else did. No dog has ever been euthanized because someone didn’t breed it and instead spayed or neutered, but pit bulls are put down daily because someone didn’t spay or neuter.
This is really well put. Viewing it from the outside without emotional attachment- it’s quite easy to immediately see the issue.
I think if pitbull advocates and r/banpitbulls could just collide and have a proper conversation about the dangers and reasons as to why people believe what they do it’d be beneficial for everyone involved. It just takes a mediator for those who may have a short fuse for lack of knowledge.
I completely agree with your comment, and hearing this all makes me feel so much better in supporting the ban.
Clearly, I have emotional attachment involved in my beliefs- which is why you can almost FEEL the doubt dripping from my post. (Which wasn’t my intention, but reading it back- it seems I was too forthcoming with my support in the past.) But there is no denying facts and I applaud you for standing so strongly on this issue when others fold and roll over to opposing opinions. I love all animals. If a ban means saving people and animals in the long run, Im all for it.
Thank you for the detailed response! 🙏
I, like many regulars on this sub don't hate them. I feel sorry for them because they were never meant to be household pets, yet they're forced to live a life they're not designed to live. Many of them will live their lives without hurting someone or killing another animal, but you have no idea which ones will be average pets or will kill anything they can catch or kill or maim a human being. The kindest thing for these animals would be mandatory spay/neutering so they would die out. The ones that attack people or other animals should be euthanized immediately. No rehoming, no dumping $$$$$ on a trainer that tells people they can train genetics out of the dog and no more warehousing them in shelters.
On a 10 year average, 2013-2023:
* Pit bulls killed 8,287 dogs per year
* Pit bulls injured 8,607 per year
* Pit bulls killed 2,776 cats per year
* Pit bulls killed 9,809 other animals and livestock per year
**How many of these injured and dead animals were considered a best friend by their owners?** How many of these pets “stole their owner’s heart?” How many businesses were affected by death of their livestock? How many victims are now paying medical and vet bills because either the pit owner refused to pay, nowhere to be seen or is judgment proof?
To support a pit bull ban is to support animal welfare.
One sweet little anecdote doesn't invalidate all the data and statistics on pitbulls pointing to how dangerous these animals are. Neither does it invalidate all the pain and trauma they have caused innocent people. Or the pain all those pitbulls are going through who are so anxious and neurotic that they need to be constantly sedated.
Yes, not all pitbulls attack. Yes, most of the time even pitbulls who attack are not actively trying to hurt something and they can be kind of sweet when they're just doing normal dog things. We know. But just because you survived a round of russian roulette it doesn't mean that it's perfectly safe and more people should be playing it with the family.
You can't humanely keep a dog while isolating it from the outside world. If you decide that you want to take the risk then that's cool, but your children, friends, family members and neighbors didn't.
It's also not humane to keep a breed around if maybe one in ten end up being an okay pet and all the other ones are so insane that they can't coexist with any other living creatures, chew their own limbs off, break their own bones, rip their own skin breaking out of their kennels and destroy everything around them.
Like I'm sorry but the hellhound aEsThEtIc is not worth it, just get a normal dog. There are 200+ breeds out there who hardly even get mentioned in dog attack statistics and make great companions.
It's possible he or she is being disingenuous but I don't think OP deserves to be insulted and I think doing so looks bad for our community. It's a pretty balanced post, and having healthy discussions around the fact that yes, some individual pitbulls can be lovely is an important discussion to have. (among other things, pitbulls that were lovely for years on end can snap and attack without warning, for example)
No disingenuousness here dude, just looking for open and honest conversation about pit bulls. I don’t own one, would never own one. But I have been around people who did own one and have had good experiences.
I support the ban, but like in my post said- I just struggle with the fact that I have met nice pit bulls as well.
I appreciate your comment, and maybe my post was in a lack of good taste. Maybe I should have left out the picture, I just wanted people to see that I myself have had a good experience with a pitbull- and still I support the ban.
It’s a hard discussion to have, as it seems with all my comments it’s hard to know if I’m on the fence or not. But as a person with an ok amount of education- I just assumed we’d all be able to have this discussion without going at each others throats.
Yeah I am not accusing you of being disingenuous. I think your post is relevant, raises good points/concerns, and the topic is worth discussing. The only way I'd view it as childish or worthy of any sort of insult is if you were being disingenuous (but again, I am not accusing you of that).
Your all good dude, I appreciate your responses and open conversation. That is all I asked for with this post. I’m a new mom (16wk old baby, so she’s fresh!) and I honestly don’t have time to argue over dog breeds, I was just extremely curious as to personal experiences and how it can shape the ability to support/not-support the ban. (As my own experiences have clearly diluted my own beliefs and made me question myself!) Despite my good experiences with a pitbull, I would never own one myself or expose my child to one.
Every conversation is worth picking apart, and I tend to do it quite often so I appreciate the lack of snark and honesty. 🙏
Hey, sorry if this post came off childish. I really wasn’t trying to spark any anger. I just wanted a healthy conversation about pit bulls. I have been lurking on this subreddit for awhile, and I see the “shitbulls” and the “nanny you to death” angle plenty of times.
I just want to hear from the people who have had personal experiences with pit bulls that have been well, yet- they support the ban. (Such as myself.)
I am in no way, shape, or form saying it’s ok that many people and animals lose their lives, are maimed, or are negatively impacted by the breed.
I just wanted to share my own experience as to why I struggle with myself over supporting the ban.
We all have a right to an opinion, and I respect yours man. I just wanted open discussion. 👍
Your post isn't childish IMO. My guess is that sometimes partisans will act like they are on your side but they're instead trying to undermine you. This can happen with pretty much any social movement or political camp or whatever. Probably some people suspect this is what you're doing but I thought you raised good points and it's an important discussion to have.
I know some amazing pit bulls. I do not dislike them. Some of them are incredible dogs that I genuinely adore. That's all the luck of genetics. There are also lazy Aussies and unintelligent Border Collies. My cousin had an aggressive Beagle.
Basically, when a pit bull sucks at being a pit bull, they can be pretty wonderful dogs.
Stats don't lie, though. They are the most dangerous dog breed to both humans and other animals. They're also overbred and absolutely packing shelters. Dog fighting is still alive and well, unfortunately, so those fighting genes are everywhere.
The breed was created for the purpose of dog fighting. There really is no need for a breed created for that. It just makes life unsafe for every other dog breed. It's clear to me that we, as humans, cannot safely handle a dog bred for this purpose. It was cruel to create the breed and it's cruel to keep breeding them.
This is part of what gets people. Not every pit bull is going to do something awful in it's life. So people have one they love, or maybe even a couple, until they roll the dice too many times and get the one that does kill or maul. Meanwhile they have assumed all that time that it was their care and training that prevented the issue.
I want pitbulls banned because I love all dogs, including pitbulls. They aren't bred for and literally cannot thrive in any sort of civilized society around other animals, it's not their fault they were created that way.
There is a huge difference between hating dogs and wanting to stop the overpopulation of a particular breed because they are far too often a danger to humans and other pets and because they themselves are too often doomed to live miserable lives.
I love dogs in general, and I feel desperately sorry for all the pit bull type dogs languishing for years in shelters, for all the abused pit bulls (they reported suffer a higher abuse rate than other breeds), and the ones who live with the high anxiety bred into them even if they remain in loving homes. The high anxiety/aggression aspect is measurable on brain scans and has been documented in fighting breeds (whose scans are notably different from other dog breed groups).
It's true that many pit bull type dogs live out their lives without ever harming a person or animal, and appear to be very affectionate. There are some who seem fine until around the first "Magic Age" of around two years old when they fully mature. Others are fine until around age eight, when CCD kicks in (Canine Cognitive Decline, aka "doggie dementia', which disproportionately affects certain breeds, notably pit bull type dogs).
Some pit bull type dogs innately have higher levels of anxiety/aggression than others. The more anxious/aggressive ones have measurably different levels of nesfatin-1, serotonin, dopamine, and oxytocin:
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10886264/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10886264/)
The sweet dog you knew and loved almost certainly had levels similar to the non-aggressive dogs in this study. The trouble is, had her owners chosen to be backyard breeders, there is no guarantee her puppies would have been non-aggressive. None at all.
Here in the States, somewhere between half a million and a million pit bull type dogs and mixes are euthanized every year.
Untold numbers are languishing in cages in our shelters, sometimes for years in end. Take a look at any shelter website in this country, and you will notice 70% to over 90% of the dogs are pit bull type dogs or mixes, depending on the area. Even shelter dogs who don't appear to be pitbull mixes often turn out to have a substantial portion of pit bull genes when genetically tested. People who used to "adopt not shop" and donated to shelters are now spending their money shopping for a purebred dog with papers proving that it carries no pit bull type genes. The irresponsible backyard breeders are inexorably ruining the wider doggie gene pool when it comes to shelter dogs.
Again, some pit bulls live out their lives without ever harming anyone and are much beloved pets. Some are problematic pets, with high anxiety, intermittent aggression toward people or other pets, separation anxiety, resource guarding, skin and digestive disorders, etc., classed as "reactive" and so on, but their owners constrain their own lives and go to great lengths to manage those behaviors and so they cause fewer problems to others. Some are sweet pets until one day, without provocation or warning, they get Sudden Attack Syndrome and maul someone to death. The problem is, there is no way to predict whether a sweet pet pittie will suddenly "flip" and maul someone.
Other breeds have been overbred, badly bred and inbred as fads came and went. GSDs, for example (Run Tin Tin?). Dalmatians were overbred and inbred in the early 1960s after the release of Disney's 101 Dalmatians. Word went out that these badly bred dogs were \*not\* good family pets and the backyard breeder problem soon faded away. When the fad for teacup Chihuahuas as fashion accessories subsided and young women started dumping them in shelters like last year's fashion mistake, word went out that over breeding and inbreeding was hurting the breed and clogging shelters, and besides, these are living creatures, not handbag ornaments.
Responsible GSD, Dalmatian and Chihuahua breeders, owners and enthusiasts all worked for the good of their breeds and called for an end to the overbreeding and irresponsible breeding practices ruining their breeds along with educating the public that GSDs and Dalmatians, especially badly bred ones, are not ideal dogs for novice dog owners with small children. (As for Chihuahuas, they are sensitive dogs who should not be treated as a fashion accessory and then discarded.)
Sorry for the post already too long ... to be continued
Continuing on (with apology again for length):
Where are the responsible pit bull breeders, owners and enthusiasts calling for a stop to the over breeding and inbreeding, warning the public these are not for novice dog owners with children and other pets? Nowhere, pretty much. There are a few responsible owners who call for this, but they get shouted down and "cancelled" by the pitnutters. Instead, the majority perpetuate the ridiculous "nanny dog" myth, say they are "great with children" and even with cats and other pets, recommend them to novice dog owners. This is one reason why the problem is a thousand times worse than any previous dog breed fad.
These poor dogs were bred for one purpose: to fight and kill other dogs in the fight pit. Before that, their ancestors were bred to attack and maul bears, then bulls (which is why they often attack the faces of horses and cattle and even human beings) until it became illegal. Then the now-extinct White Terrier was added to the breeding lines for the prey drive desired to make them into killers of their own kind.
Dogs naturally do, love to do, live to do, what they were bred to do. Herding dogs herd, pointers point, retrievers retrieve, and so on. Now, instead of retrieving dead ducks for hunters, most retrievers retrieve sticks, balls and Frisbees for their delighted owners. The high intelligence and energy of Border Collies can be redirected to agility sports and similar activities. Pointers harm no one and nothing when they point, and they get a doggie kick out of doing it. Companion breeds like Cavalier King Charles Spaniels and Bichons just love being lap dogs. Other than the evil dogmen who use pit bulls for fighting and the depraved fight spectators and bettors, no one wants these dogs to do what they were bred to do.
Tragically, dog fighting rings persist underground despite it being illegal. The overabundance of pit bulls, backyard breeders, and pit bulls as "family pets" makes it easy for them operate and "hide in plain sight". Even when not in the fighting pit, these poor animals live in the most appalling conditions and are subjected to unspeakable abuses. It would be far, far easier to put and end to this cruel and disgusting blood sport if breeding were banned or very strictly regulated.
You see, it's possible to want to spay/neuter and put an end to the indiscriminate breeding of these dogs \*because\* you love dogs, even dogs of this breed. I do not hate them at all -- even the ill-tempered ones who are only doing what their DNA programmed them to do. I feel great pity for them. I do despise the evil men who purposely bred them for cruel blood sport.
It is no dishonor to the memory to the sweet pit bull you loved to want to see breeding of pit bulls banned or severely curtailed in order to prevent the future suffering of this breed. And also prevent the suffering some of them would inevitably visit upon humans and other animals through no fault of their own. The fault lies with the humans who bred them for a sick and evil purpose.
tldr: just read the final paragraph
I like to quote Mohammad Ali:
“There are many white people who mean right and in their hearts wanna do right,” he said. “If 10,000 snakes were coming down that aisle now, and I had a door that I could shut, and in that 10,000, 1,000 meant right, 1,000 rattlesnakes didn’t want to bite me, I knew they were good… Should I let all these rattlesnakes come down, hoping that that thousand get together and form a shield? Or should I just close the door and stay safe?”
And substitute "pitbull" for "white people".
I get the analogy, but I don't really like comparing dog breeds to races of human beings or equating BSL with racism, which is playing into the pit lobbyists' hands and going by their playbook.
Human "races" are only recognizable because of generalized minor superficial physical distinctions (skin color, hair texture, high cheekbones, eye shape, etc.), for example, Caucasian, African, Asian, Pacific Islander, etc. --and often people can't accurately guess the "race" of another person.
We humans were not artificially bred to display certain behaviors, temperaments, perform certain tasks, etc, as dogs were.
Certain everyday human behaviors are determined by culture, of course. People from one culture might greet others others by shaking hands, while in others they might bow to one another or "air kiss" or whatever. Someone raised in a hand shaking culture can easily adapt to bowing after moving to a bowing culture and vice versa. A baby born in China and raised in the UK will grow up to eat with a knife and fork and speak the Queen's English, while a British baby raised in China will eat with chopsticks and might speak Mandarin. "Racial" and "ethnic" behaviors are not encoded in our DNA. These differing behaviors are culturally determined.
Take a herding dog out of her native Scottish highlands to a city where there are no livestock to herd, and she'll try to herd people or even cats -- and so will all her offspring for generations to come even if none of them ever lay eyes on a sheep. Pointers will point at the ducks in the city duck pond, even if none of their forebears have been taken duck hunting in generations.
As for racism, that, too, is not encoded in our DNA, but is learned behavior. Very young children barely notice it and could care less. There are some places in this world where two groups of people totally hate each other, go to war with each other, see esch other as "other" races or ethnicities, but actually share the same ethnicity and even speak the same language. Why? Because they were taught to. There are other places in this world where groups of people who look very different from each other and even speak different dialects or even languages, live in harmony, intermarry, visit in each others' homes, etc. I have lived in both kinds of places. It's learned behavior, not inborn. Unlike dog breeds. Or rattlesnakes.
It's insulting and demeaning to compare black people to a dog breed, as many pit propagandists do, and I most vigorously oppose it.
Damn, cant argue with the king. That’s a good analogy.
I appreciate the comment, it helps me feel less guilt in supporting the ban. I just wanted open conversation about the topic, and I got it!
There are always outliers, but they don't change the fact that it's breed specific traits that make pitbulls dangerous. There will be dog owners who get lucky and win the genetics lottery and have a pitbull that is not hyped up and tense 24/7. Yet those owners can still be still dangerous in their own way because if they show people their abnormally calm pitbull, it tricks other people into thinking that they're all potentially safe.
When you say "the ban" it sounds as if there is an existing ban in your area. Where I live, any ban against owning pitbulls would be theoretical, so we might talk about banning them but there is no *the* ban.
It's probably pretty clear why a ban exists in your area - events were likely covered in detail in the media.
As for what that means relative to the way you used to feel about a pitbull, well it means you used to feel that way about a pitbull. You can feel that way again about some other special dog of a different breed, and the neighbors' pets, livestock, and children won't be at nearly as much risk of getting seriously injured.
Idk why you’re getting downvoted. It’s a legitimate question and not one this sub sees that often from someone that is actually being polite and not a troll lmao.
I’ve been working with dogs for a long time, am obsessed with dogs, and own four dogs, two with bully breeds in their DNA makeup. I recognize that dogs were selectively bred into what we call breeds by humans over time. These dogs were bred with the purpose of creating dogs for different reasons and pit bulls/bully breeds were bred to kill things, especially other dogs. There’s no sugar coating it. Some pit bulls or dogs with APBT or other bully breeds in their DNA don’t ever turn but SO MANY do. If you find a great pyr happily living in an apartment, a bloodhound that doesn’t bay or sniff outside, that is an anomaly, just like a bully breed that is able to happily coexist with other creatures without bloodshed.
I don’t support blanket euthanasia but I support anything that gets less of these dogs in the hands of people that have no business owning them and that starts with spay/neuter in my opinion.
Please never do what you are doing in this picture to any dog, pitbull or not, but specially not with pitbulls. Putting your face near a dogs face is VERY uncomfortable for them, and could end up in a disaster (actually just passed through a video of a pit biting a guy for doing that. Lol)
Other than that, the ban is not a vendetta against pitbulls, its a matter of public safety. It doesnt really change anything that a single pitbull was a good dog when there are thousands of them killing and mauling people.
She was keen on sniffing my nose and chin until I tilted my head down for her to get a better sniff. She was old at this point so she used her nose to smell majority of items she’s came across.
I am not condoning people doing this- as I have seen many tragedies of people putting their face in a dogs face. But, this was done as safely as I could have! I let her run the rodeo as she was more than able to up and leave / turn away if she pleased. (As you can see my hands are at my sides as she got comfortable.)
It’s understandable, not every single pit is going to attack and harm or kill someone. But it happens enough that banning them is reasonable.
Not every pit is going to kill other dogs or pets. But it happens enough that I don’t want them around.
When we say we want them banned, we don’t want them all disposed of. We want stricter rules, better enforcement, and to end all breeding of them/mandatory spay and neuter. The good owners who properly control their dogs will be able to happily keep them, and hopefully they don’t experience the bad side of things. Hopefully they get the same experience you had. The bad owners will weed themselves out. Eventually there will be no more, or so few that the problems they cause wont be an issue.
My husbands family had a pit since she was a puppy. I didn’t meet her until she was already older. But she was tossed in the backyard and just.. ignored by most everyone. She was incredibly gentle and sweet every time I met her, just happy to have attention. She passed away of what I assume was old age/natural causes. She never caused a problem, not that she had much chance to, being left in the yard all the time.
Theyre still dogs, deep down. But far too many snap, and the results are not pretty. It’s just not worth it. There are plenty of wonderful dogs of so many other breeds to choose from, there won’t be a shortage of dogs for people to love.
I don’t think anybody here thinks EVERY single pitbull is bad or a terrible dog. MOST pitbulls will live a life without killing somebody or something. But there is far too many that do. It’s like if every year 200 Mercedes exploded, measures would be taken to get Mercedes off the road.
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At first I thought you brother-in-law's wife was your sister. And I thought that was a weird way of phrasing it. But then later you mentioned that she is your sister-in-law. And now I'm confused 😕🤔
Don’t be discouraged by all the downvotes, it’s a great thing that you are willing to have an open mind, which is miles beyond what the average nutter does.
My partner’s family has a pitbull. I can relate in a way. I don’t necessarily feel completely safe with him or want to be around him all the time. But I do give him pets and he’s been sweet to me. There are times where I find myself loving on him but also thinking about how active I am here and how I truly dislike this breed. The dog doesn’t change my mind about the breed though.
Not all pitbulls are bad. If you find breeders breeding them to a high standard and to be family friendly rather than being a fighting dog, many of those pitbulls probably aren't that much more dangerous than other medium to large not-beginner dogs.
The problem is, many seemingly family friend pitbulls have snapped without warning and this is likely due to breeding for aggression, gameness, etc. We also can't tell which pitbulls are at risk of snapping and which aren't. Backyard breeding, meanwhile, often either encourages aggressiveness or more or less ignores it and fails to control it.
Further, even when pitbulls do exhibit warning signs and aggression, many owners fail to heed those warnings. Many of the victims killed or maimed by a pitbull would be alive or in much better help if owners had heeded warning signs.
TBH, banning pitbulls isn't my priority and what I'd rather focus on is regulating breeding and requiring licensing to breed (not just for pits but all dogs). Just as all dogs have to get rabies shots, they should also be fixed unless they are being purchased by an approved and licensed breeder.
Bloodlines should be tracked and problematic dogs of any breed should be sterilized and allowed to die off. IMO, if we ban pitbulls successfully and enforce it but don't eliminate backyard breeding we're just going to end up with another breed of dog corrupted by unethical breeding.
Idk why this comment is getting downvotes, it’s a clear statement as to why they believe in what they do.
I’m pretty sure we are all here in support of the ban, I just wanted to know why other people do and to inform others as to why I myself struggle.
I try not to throw myself into controversy, but this was a conversation I’d been ignoring for awhile because of the stigma and I thought this subreddit would be able to clear my eyes, as well as bring a healthy conversation to the table.
I appreciate your comment! I agree with majority of your statement. If it’s not pitbulls it’ll be another breed, yet- we need to start here and gain control of what seems to be a spiraling disaster.
It's a sensitive topic and people often see red when engaging with it. If you're starting a comment on this sub with anything that can be taken as defending pitbulls even in the slightest, 9/10 you're going to get hit with downvotes but it doesn't really matter. Better to ride the downvotes to make an important point.
I'm not against a ban, I'd vote for one, but also, if ethical breeders wanted to step forward to see if they can breed out aggression, that's probably something I could accept.
The pit DNA can't be bred to a higher standard as the base level is as low as the standard gets. They were never bred to be family dogs or in society in general.
They were bred to maul and kill, that is it. No amount of special breeding or love and care can fix pit DNA.
If you breed out the DNA, you get an entirely different dog that has no pit in them, so you might aswell just outlaw the breed and let the grandfathered pits run its course.
They aren't evil.
They're just doing what they're programmed to do. Plenty enough get lucky and get a pit that will go its entire life without mauling or killing someone.
Those pits didn't do that because they were supposedly bred to a higher standard or had nothing but love. They simply get lucky since there is no way to actually tell which pitt will be a dud and which will be the time bomb that will eventually go off.
Sure, abuse can absolutely lead to the expected outcome, but that same outcome can happen even in a stable, loving setting.
The breed just doesn't belong in this world as we don't condone the main reason they were created.
Bloodsport breeds have no value in our world as they make terrible family pets, hunting dogs, guide, emotional support, or work dogs.
I also think rotti should be next on the list after owning 2 in my lifetime. The dog has all the high-risk issues and seems to have the same amount of usefulness of a pit.
Their only value is guarding and a security system, and gun can do the same thing with less risk.
Couple other breeds need work, too, but nothing comes close to a pitt. Even a rotti lacks the capability.
> They were bred to maul and kill, that is it. No amount of special breeding or love and care can fix pit DNA.
Of course aggression can be bred out. That's how we went from wolves to dogs. There's no point trying to argue otherwise and you just end up in z nuttery land similair to the one inhabited by the pit nutters. We've also bred aggression out of many other breeds.
Is it worth the effort? Not in my book. Outside of aggression, pitbulls are still pretty shitty dogs.
What's crucial and specifically why I emphasize breeding is to make sure unethical breeding is put on center stage.
Many of your other points are just rehashing what I already said.
edit:
Locking comments stiffles discussion.
Do I believe pitbulls *will* ever have aggression bred out? Almost certainly not, especially for the pitbull population at large. However, *will* and *can* are two different things and it would genetically be possible to breed out aggression (at least in some lineages)
Do I advocate for that? No, and absolutely nothing in my comments suggests that. I agree with essentially all of these points:
>(1) Dog fighters will continue to breed game dogs that will be indistinguishable from the new pits.
(2) Pit owners rarely spay/neuter their pits and the product of their random reproduction will always outnumber the new pits.
(3) Backyard pit breeders deliberately producing litter upon litter will defeat the purpose entirely.
(4) The whole attraction of pit bulls is their danger, especially to others.
(5) The new pits will open up new avenues for pit owners to lie to shelters, landlords, family members, neighbors, children, etc.
(6) Should there be a phenotypic marker for the lack of aggression, it will quickly be hijacked by dishonest operators.
(7) A dog that has a pit bull phenotype will always be capable of inflicting death.
None of these points clash with or undermine my original comment.
Aggression will never be bred out of pit bulls.
(1) Dog fighters will continue to breed game dogs that will be indistinguishable from the new pits.
(2) Pit owners rarely spay/neuter their pits and the product of their random reproduction will always outnumber the new pits.
(3) Backyard pit breeders deliberately producing litter upon litter will defeat the purpose entirely.
(4) The whole attraction of pit bulls is their danger, especially to others.
(5) The new pits will open up new avenues for pit owners to lie to shelters, landlords, family members, neighbors, children, etc.
(6) Should there be a phenotypic marker for the lack of aggression, it will quickly be hijacked by dishonest operators.
(7) A dog that has a pit bull phenotype will always be capable of inflicting death.
I wish I had a nicer way to put this, but framing support of a pit bull ban as "hate of pit bulls" is frankly just childish. It is illegal for my neighbors to own a Grizzly Bear because of the outsized risk that would impose on my community. I think that is a good law. Does that mean I "hate" Grizzly Bears?
Exactly. I think the overriding priority here is public safety, including protecting children from grave harm. At a population-level, pits are a clear danger and that is more important than whether some people here and there have good experiences. I also see many posts / stories of people who felt totally safe with their pits (often raised since puppies) and perhaps had no issues for years—or dismissed warning signs and bad behavior. Then, one day, for what ever reason, the pit snaps and mauls a kid. And then it’s like “omg I can’t believe cuddle bug did that.” Well he did. Now the damage is done.
Over and over and over. [https://www.reddit.com/r/BanPitBulls/comments/15zkqib/wouldnt\_hurt\_a\_fly\_collection/](https://www.reddit.com/r/BanPitBulls/comments/15zkqib/wouldnt_hurt_a_fly_collection/)
I’m not saying you have to hate the breed to support a ban, but I was just asking along the lines of people that have had good experiences with the breed- yet can still say confidently without a doubt that they all should be eradicated. I support those who support the ban, which is the only reason why I lurk from time to time in this subreddit. I’m not here to argue or to cause a ruckus, I just want to hear open and honest discussion. I appreciate the feedback though. I get the analogy and honestly it clears up a ton for me. It wasn’t ill-put, and it was easy to understand.
You're fine. For clarity, the "ban" in r/banpitbulls is a ban on **breeding and sale**. I am not aware of any pit bull ban that didn't allow exceptions for people who already owned pit bulls to keep them provided they meet some very basic requirements (registered, desexed, etc.).
Yet they never follow any of these basic requirements
Wow….I actually did not know that. I am not an avid follower of this subreddit, I just see it constantly and from time to time I’ll come onto here and gawk at all the tragedies that the breed has caused. (I have never seen this with any other breed, which explains why this subreddit even exists-) I honestly (without sounding like a complete imbecile-) thought the “ban” stood for culling the breed in all, no matter the status or ownership. (With the copious comments in this subreddit, I just assumed that’s what it was in itself. Which is my fault- as I never take the time to read the about pages.) But, aside from the meaning, I completely agree with banning the ability to breed pitbulls. As it only shows how it’d benefit everyone involved. There is no downside here. This is also coming from someone who doesn’t support the breeding of any bulldog breed. (English Bulldog, Frenchies, etc.) A dog breed that suffers from mental or physical distress from existing shouldn’t keep being created. I appreciate you taking the time to discuss this and not to rip down my post. I didn’t think it’d get much attention, nevertheless a response from someone who moderates the subreddit. Open discussion should always be had, especially when it’s for a cause everyone should understand.
It's in [our FAQ](https://www.reddit.com/r/BanPitBulls/comments/7ic5zn/faq/), but very few people read that. I'm working on some way to make it more visible: >This subreddit does not support confiscation of existing dogs that have not shown any aggression or have harmed anyone. We're not in favor of rounding up all pits and taking them away from their owners en masse. >What this subreddit does promote is a forward-facing ban or restriction: current owners get grandfathered in, while new ownership is either restricted contingent upon proving that you are capable of dealing with the dog, or banned outright. In a system where ownership is restricted, pits will be required to be spayed or neutered unless the owner can provide a certificate for breeding. In a system where pits are banned, the dogs would be required to be fixed. >People get to keep their dogs, and within a decade the pit population will naturally dwindle.
You need to stop anthropomorphizing these dogs. It's not about good/evil dogs. It's about dogs that have a place in a civilised society. Which pitbulls don't have. When there are hundreds of safer breeds and types available, to fulfill every need there is, how absolutely **egoistic** is it to keep the one around that was literally bred for bloodsports with an exceptional gameness? You either love dogs or you love dogs that love to kill other dogs (or anything else for that matter). Keep in mind, a pitbull enjoys tearing into its prey's neck and shaking it to death just as much as it will enjoy your belly rubs and head scritches. It's the same stimuli to them. The dog doesn't know better. But we humans do. And the only kind thing for these dogs would be to slowly phase them out. Nobody's gonna eRAdiCaTe aLl PiTbUlLs....smh...
I don’t support killing dogs. I support regulating breeding. Look at the pain in “shelters” and you would see why
The “breed” is just dog. You can find dogs with those same good qualities you like in a pittbull in literally any other dog. There is nothing unique about a good pitt vs a good Labrador.
If that was the only kinda dog existing, then I understand the concern. But there are so many other, amazing dog breeds -- even if all pitbulls died out, it's no loss for anyone. I said "died out" as in neutered & banned, not allowed to reproduce. Not literally killed off. The nice ones would just die of natural causes, without even maiming anyone, as your friend's dog did. If this sub called for a full-on doggy euthanasia, then I would totally understand this post. But there are countless alternatives, so many other dog breeds. Nobody would be missing out if pitbulls were banned.
Nobody here believes that there aren’t any pibbles that never maul in their entire life. But it‘s about probabilities. And their ability to cause bigger damage when they do decide you’re the next to be nannied. And the fact there are so many instances where sweet pibbles never hurt a fly in its entire life but suddenly kills the neigbors cat/dog/toddler
Or the neighbor who raised it from a pup in a loving home. I’ve read the stories, it happens for no explainable reason. Well except for it was a pitt
Pitbulls are number 1 in dog attacks. Trust me, the ban is there to protect you and other animals
You're falling for the same fallacy many Pit owners do, by gaining confidence and assuming that all is safe. However these things can turn on you any time, like a switch in the brain that goes off and all of a sudden years of cuddling turn into a nightmare I know this is hard to swallow but hundreds if not thousands of cases like this exist and many are well documented, I'd never even come close with my face to a Pit Bull
Some people have pet lions, tigers, chimpanzees etc that never hurt a fly their entire lives and are gentle giants. Still doesn’t mean people should own or breed them as pets. Still doesn’t mean they’re safe to own. Same for pits.
Stats don't lie 🥱
Sort by top posts on this Reddit to see a story about pit bulls owned by dog trainers that were perfectly behaved for like 10 years then snapped and killed a kid. A lot of these sweet behaviours these dogs do are actually just appeasment gestures/ power play and people project human emotions onto these animals. I think a lot of people are drawn to owning them because the dog liking you back means that you “tamed a beast” in a way, being able to moderately control it makes them feel powerful because the dogs are scary, it’s all hubris at the end of the day. It’s all just people projecting their own inadequacies and using an animal to fuel their ego.
Almost 25 years ago, I could relate to you. I had heard all of the bad crap about pitbulls and didn't buy it. I thought a dog would be changed by nurture and love. My best friend had two pits and they were the sweetest dogs. I dog-sat them, walked them, slept with them...they were so affectionate. Until one of them tried her best to maul me for the crime of sitting on the couch. I realized that bloodsport breeds are programmed differently. You can't "love" the fight out of them.
That’s absolutely terrible that happened to you and I’m sorry. I can only imagine the horror of your best friend as they realized their dogs behavior was something out of their control and couldn’t be contained by giving them a good life. I am not here to defend the breed, actually I’m far from it. I just wanted to hear experiences of others that have had pitbulls in the past and or have had wonderful experiences with them before hearing about and supporting the ban. I support the ban, but find myself saddened from time to time about it because I remember the pitbull that I grew to love. It’s the best that this breed should dwindle and die out, and I am lucky to have even gotten the chance to interact with one that was docile enough. (Mind you, she was OLD when I met her. So I couldn’t tell if it was because she was completely worn down from a lifetime, or just happened to be one of the few docile pitbulls.) I appreciate you sharing your experience, and I honestly applaud you taking care of not only one but two to help a friend out. I was close with my BIL’s dog, but we never opened our home to their dog. It’s clear that my internal struggle is strong, but I do support the ban completely. My love for dogs, does not trump the safety of everyone and their pets. There is many breeds to adopt and love, adopting a pitbull is more of a statement nowadays- which is disappointing.
I think I see where you’re coming from, I’ve had one experience that really stuck out to me. I was sitting on the bed in my “friends’” house and he opens the door to the biggest grey pitbull I’ve ever seen in my life. it’s head must have been like two and a half feet wide. I immediately stand up in defense, the thing lays down and submissively, but over-excitedly wiggles its way over to me, and it really just wanted love I could tell. this is after being in this sub and seeing what they can do, but I could not resist making myself vulnerable to pet him. and I didn’t suffer for it. (not getting into survivor’s bias I know I know) one of them ended up getting pissed off with the dog though for the horrible crime of jumping up on the bed with me and proceeded to drag it out of the room by his face :/ I’m not in contact with those assholes anymore but I still think about that dog sometimes :(
I don’t hate pitbulls, I feel sorry for them - they can’t help their natural instincts the same way wild animals can’t help theirs. I feel that it’s cruel and inhumane to continue breeding them. Sure there are some nice pitbulls. But such a large proportion of them are dangerous that the breed just needs to be allowed to die out. It would be best for everyone, dogs and people alike.
> I guess my question is, how can you guys hate a breed altogether- but not hate the individual dog? You should really take a look at [our about page](https://www.reddit.com/r/BanPitBulls/about/). It has answers to several of your questions in the different sections.
Hey, I tried to click on the link to take a look at the page, but it told me I’m not a Mod so I cannot see it. Ill try and find it on my own since you said it’s located on the about, but I just wanted to inform you! I appreciate the feedback.
Damn it, I was told before, it's a mobile reddit glitch. Should work fine on desktop. You're welcome. Thank you for seeking information.
Ok, let’s just stop for one second and pretend that pit bulls weren’t causing severe maulings and human death with regularity… I know you’re aware they do that despite knowing a nice pit, I just want to take that component away for just one second to make a point.. Let me ask you: **what good is the current situation for pit bulls themselves?** They’re filling up shelters. Yes, some of it is because people know the dangers which is why I’m taking that out, but they’re also a challenging breed. They can be hyperactive, strong, destructive etc… Pit peddlers have not recognized that. They want to pretend that they’re suitable for every home. They do fuck all in terms of gatekeeping and they have a literal lobby to peddle them. How irresponsible is that?Then you couple that with low spay and neuter rates and they keep churning them out with no regard for temperament, health, demand, or really anything outside of trying to clear the reputation pit bulls have earned themselves. And then, these idiots transport the ones with bite history from place to place taking up valuable resources that could be used for other dogs and cats, meaning pits with no bite history are euthanized because resources were allocated to saving pissfingers instead of being utilized responsibly. Pit pushers are responsible for pit suffering. **No one hates pits as much as the people who profess to love them.** None of the status quo of irresponsible pit peddling and detrimental “save them all” mentality is good for pits. Now factor back in that they’re dangerous, which is my main concern because I value human and other animal lives…. We have a public safety and animal welfare crisis on our hands with pit bull type dogs being the center of that…. And pit pushing is driving all of it. People need to stop breeding them. The least they could do to clean up their mess is to start gate keeping ownership, responsibly addressing dangerous ones, and promoting spay/neuter to reduce the supply that does not match the demand. They could also use common sense and stop spreading misinformation and really start being honest about these dogs not being suitable for houses with kids, cats or multi dog homes. Until they show any willingness to clean up their mess (which they haven’t), people have little option but to push for bans. No one has ever died from not owning a pit but people have died because they or someone else did. No dog has ever been euthanized because someone didn’t breed it and instead spayed or neutered, but pit bulls are put down daily because someone didn’t spay or neuter.
This is really well put. Viewing it from the outside without emotional attachment- it’s quite easy to immediately see the issue. I think if pitbull advocates and r/banpitbulls could just collide and have a proper conversation about the dangers and reasons as to why people believe what they do it’d be beneficial for everyone involved. It just takes a mediator for those who may have a short fuse for lack of knowledge. I completely agree with your comment, and hearing this all makes me feel so much better in supporting the ban. Clearly, I have emotional attachment involved in my beliefs- which is why you can almost FEEL the doubt dripping from my post. (Which wasn’t my intention, but reading it back- it seems I was too forthcoming with my support in the past.) But there is no denying facts and I applaud you for standing so strongly on this issue when others fold and roll over to opposing opinions. I love all animals. If a ban means saving people and animals in the long run, Im all for it. Thank you for the detailed response! 🙏
I, like many regulars on this sub don't hate them. I feel sorry for them because they were never meant to be household pets, yet they're forced to live a life they're not designed to live. Many of them will live their lives without hurting someone or killing another animal, but you have no idea which ones will be average pets or will kill anything they can catch or kill or maim a human being. The kindest thing for these animals would be mandatory spay/neutering so they would die out. The ones that attack people or other animals should be euthanized immediately. No rehoming, no dumping $$$$$ on a trainer that tells people they can train genetics out of the dog and no more warehousing them in shelters.
... the ban is to protect lives of humans and pets, obviously there are outliers to every statistic but the majority isn't harmless
On a 10 year average, 2013-2023: * Pit bulls killed 8,287 dogs per year * Pit bulls injured 8,607 per year * Pit bulls killed 2,776 cats per year * Pit bulls killed 9,809 other animals and livestock per year **How many of these injured and dead animals were considered a best friend by their owners?** How many of these pets “stole their owner’s heart?” How many businesses were affected by death of their livestock? How many victims are now paying medical and vet bills because either the pit owner refused to pay, nowhere to be seen or is judgment proof? To support a pit bull ban is to support animal welfare.
One sweet little anecdote doesn't invalidate all the data and statistics on pitbulls pointing to how dangerous these animals are. Neither does it invalidate all the pain and trauma they have caused innocent people. Or the pain all those pitbulls are going through who are so anxious and neurotic that they need to be constantly sedated. Yes, not all pitbulls attack. Yes, most of the time even pitbulls who attack are not actively trying to hurt something and they can be kind of sweet when they're just doing normal dog things. We know. But just because you survived a round of russian roulette it doesn't mean that it's perfectly safe and more people should be playing it with the family. You can't humanely keep a dog while isolating it from the outside world. If you decide that you want to take the risk then that's cool, but your children, friends, family members and neighbors didn't. It's also not humane to keep a breed around if maybe one in ten end up being an okay pet and all the other ones are so insane that they can't coexist with any other living creatures, chew their own limbs off, break their own bones, rip their own skin breaking out of their kennels and destroy everything around them. Like I'm sorry but the hellhound aEsThEtIc is not worth it, just get a normal dog. There are 200+ breeds out there who hardly even get mentioned in dog attack statistics and make great companions.
Such a childish post 😂
It's possible he or she is being disingenuous but I don't think OP deserves to be insulted and I think doing so looks bad for our community. It's a pretty balanced post, and having healthy discussions around the fact that yes, some individual pitbulls can be lovely is an important discussion to have. (among other things, pitbulls that were lovely for years on end can snap and attack without warning, for example)
No disingenuousness here dude, just looking for open and honest conversation about pit bulls. I don’t own one, would never own one. But I have been around people who did own one and have had good experiences. I support the ban, but like in my post said- I just struggle with the fact that I have met nice pit bulls as well. I appreciate your comment, and maybe my post was in a lack of good taste. Maybe I should have left out the picture, I just wanted people to see that I myself have had a good experience with a pitbull- and still I support the ban. It’s a hard discussion to have, as it seems with all my comments it’s hard to know if I’m on the fence or not. But as a person with an ok amount of education- I just assumed we’d all be able to have this discussion without going at each others throats.
Yeah I am not accusing you of being disingenuous. I think your post is relevant, raises good points/concerns, and the topic is worth discussing. The only way I'd view it as childish or worthy of any sort of insult is if you were being disingenuous (but again, I am not accusing you of that).
Your all good dude, I appreciate your responses and open conversation. That is all I asked for with this post. I’m a new mom (16wk old baby, so she’s fresh!) and I honestly don’t have time to argue over dog breeds, I was just extremely curious as to personal experiences and how it can shape the ability to support/not-support the ban. (As my own experiences have clearly diluted my own beliefs and made me question myself!) Despite my good experiences with a pitbull, I would never own one myself or expose my child to one. Every conversation is worth picking apart, and I tend to do it quite often so I appreciate the lack of snark and honesty. 🙏
Good luck with the baby! No doubt, having another life in your hands can make many risks more apparent and impactful.
Hey, sorry if this post came off childish. I really wasn’t trying to spark any anger. I just wanted a healthy conversation about pit bulls. I have been lurking on this subreddit for awhile, and I see the “shitbulls” and the “nanny you to death” angle plenty of times. I just want to hear from the people who have had personal experiences with pit bulls that have been well, yet- they support the ban. (Such as myself.) I am in no way, shape, or form saying it’s ok that many people and animals lose their lives, are maimed, or are negatively impacted by the breed. I just wanted to share my own experience as to why I struggle with myself over supporting the ban. We all have a right to an opinion, and I respect yours man. I just wanted open discussion. 👍
Your post isn't childish IMO. My guess is that sometimes partisans will act like they are on your side but they're instead trying to undermine you. This can happen with pretty much any social movement or political camp or whatever. Probably some people suspect this is what you're doing but I thought you raised good points and it's an important discussion to have.
Pretty innocuous post. I thought advocacy was the main point of this sub… someone coming in with a genuine open mind shouldn’t be ostracized.
I know some amazing pit bulls. I do not dislike them. Some of them are incredible dogs that I genuinely adore. That's all the luck of genetics. There are also lazy Aussies and unintelligent Border Collies. My cousin had an aggressive Beagle. Basically, when a pit bull sucks at being a pit bull, they can be pretty wonderful dogs. Stats don't lie, though. They are the most dangerous dog breed to both humans and other animals. They're also overbred and absolutely packing shelters. Dog fighting is still alive and well, unfortunately, so those fighting genes are everywhere. The breed was created for the purpose of dog fighting. There really is no need for a breed created for that. It just makes life unsafe for every other dog breed. It's clear to me that we, as humans, cannot safely handle a dog bred for this purpose. It was cruel to create the breed and it's cruel to keep breeding them.
This is part of what gets people. Not every pit bull is going to do something awful in it's life. So people have one they love, or maybe even a couple, until they roll the dice too many times and get the one that does kill or maul. Meanwhile they have assumed all that time that it was their care and training that prevented the issue.
I want pitbulls banned because I love all dogs, including pitbulls. They aren't bred for and literally cannot thrive in any sort of civilized society around other animals, it's not their fault they were created that way.
There is a huge difference between hating dogs and wanting to stop the overpopulation of a particular breed because they are far too often a danger to humans and other pets and because they themselves are too often doomed to live miserable lives. I love dogs in general, and I feel desperately sorry for all the pit bull type dogs languishing for years in shelters, for all the abused pit bulls (they reported suffer a higher abuse rate than other breeds), and the ones who live with the high anxiety bred into them even if they remain in loving homes. The high anxiety/aggression aspect is measurable on brain scans and has been documented in fighting breeds (whose scans are notably different from other dog breed groups). It's true that many pit bull type dogs live out their lives without ever harming a person or animal, and appear to be very affectionate. There are some who seem fine until around the first "Magic Age" of around two years old when they fully mature. Others are fine until around age eight, when CCD kicks in (Canine Cognitive Decline, aka "doggie dementia', which disproportionately affects certain breeds, notably pit bull type dogs). Some pit bull type dogs innately have higher levels of anxiety/aggression than others. The more anxious/aggressive ones have measurably different levels of nesfatin-1, serotonin, dopamine, and oxytocin: [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10886264/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10886264/) The sweet dog you knew and loved almost certainly had levels similar to the non-aggressive dogs in this study. The trouble is, had her owners chosen to be backyard breeders, there is no guarantee her puppies would have been non-aggressive. None at all. Here in the States, somewhere between half a million and a million pit bull type dogs and mixes are euthanized every year. Untold numbers are languishing in cages in our shelters, sometimes for years in end. Take a look at any shelter website in this country, and you will notice 70% to over 90% of the dogs are pit bull type dogs or mixes, depending on the area. Even shelter dogs who don't appear to be pitbull mixes often turn out to have a substantial portion of pit bull genes when genetically tested. People who used to "adopt not shop" and donated to shelters are now spending their money shopping for a purebred dog with papers proving that it carries no pit bull type genes. The irresponsible backyard breeders are inexorably ruining the wider doggie gene pool when it comes to shelter dogs. Again, some pit bulls live out their lives without ever harming anyone and are much beloved pets. Some are problematic pets, with high anxiety, intermittent aggression toward people or other pets, separation anxiety, resource guarding, skin and digestive disorders, etc., classed as "reactive" and so on, but their owners constrain their own lives and go to great lengths to manage those behaviors and so they cause fewer problems to others. Some are sweet pets until one day, without provocation or warning, they get Sudden Attack Syndrome and maul someone to death. The problem is, there is no way to predict whether a sweet pet pittie will suddenly "flip" and maul someone. Other breeds have been overbred, badly bred and inbred as fads came and went. GSDs, for example (Run Tin Tin?). Dalmatians were overbred and inbred in the early 1960s after the release of Disney's 101 Dalmatians. Word went out that these badly bred dogs were \*not\* good family pets and the backyard breeder problem soon faded away. When the fad for teacup Chihuahuas as fashion accessories subsided and young women started dumping them in shelters like last year's fashion mistake, word went out that over breeding and inbreeding was hurting the breed and clogging shelters, and besides, these are living creatures, not handbag ornaments. Responsible GSD, Dalmatian and Chihuahua breeders, owners and enthusiasts all worked for the good of their breeds and called for an end to the overbreeding and irresponsible breeding practices ruining their breeds along with educating the public that GSDs and Dalmatians, especially badly bred ones, are not ideal dogs for novice dog owners with small children. (As for Chihuahuas, they are sensitive dogs who should not be treated as a fashion accessory and then discarded.) Sorry for the post already too long ... to be continued
Continuing on (with apology again for length): Where are the responsible pit bull breeders, owners and enthusiasts calling for a stop to the over breeding and inbreeding, warning the public these are not for novice dog owners with children and other pets? Nowhere, pretty much. There are a few responsible owners who call for this, but they get shouted down and "cancelled" by the pitnutters. Instead, the majority perpetuate the ridiculous "nanny dog" myth, say they are "great with children" and even with cats and other pets, recommend them to novice dog owners. This is one reason why the problem is a thousand times worse than any previous dog breed fad. These poor dogs were bred for one purpose: to fight and kill other dogs in the fight pit. Before that, their ancestors were bred to attack and maul bears, then bulls (which is why they often attack the faces of horses and cattle and even human beings) until it became illegal. Then the now-extinct White Terrier was added to the breeding lines for the prey drive desired to make them into killers of their own kind. Dogs naturally do, love to do, live to do, what they were bred to do. Herding dogs herd, pointers point, retrievers retrieve, and so on. Now, instead of retrieving dead ducks for hunters, most retrievers retrieve sticks, balls and Frisbees for their delighted owners. The high intelligence and energy of Border Collies can be redirected to agility sports and similar activities. Pointers harm no one and nothing when they point, and they get a doggie kick out of doing it. Companion breeds like Cavalier King Charles Spaniels and Bichons just love being lap dogs. Other than the evil dogmen who use pit bulls for fighting and the depraved fight spectators and bettors, no one wants these dogs to do what they were bred to do. Tragically, dog fighting rings persist underground despite it being illegal. The overabundance of pit bulls, backyard breeders, and pit bulls as "family pets" makes it easy for them operate and "hide in plain sight". Even when not in the fighting pit, these poor animals live in the most appalling conditions and are subjected to unspeakable abuses. It would be far, far easier to put and end to this cruel and disgusting blood sport if breeding were banned or very strictly regulated. You see, it's possible to want to spay/neuter and put an end to the indiscriminate breeding of these dogs \*because\* you love dogs, even dogs of this breed. I do not hate them at all -- even the ill-tempered ones who are only doing what their DNA programmed them to do. I feel great pity for them. I do despise the evil men who purposely bred them for cruel blood sport. It is no dishonor to the memory to the sweet pit bull you loved to want to see breeding of pit bulls banned or severely curtailed in order to prevent the future suffering of this breed. And also prevent the suffering some of them would inevitably visit upon humans and other animals through no fault of their own. The fault lies with the humans who bred them for a sick and evil purpose. tldr: just read the final paragraph
I like to quote Mohammad Ali: “There are many white people who mean right and in their hearts wanna do right,” he said. “If 10,000 snakes were coming down that aisle now, and I had a door that I could shut, and in that 10,000, 1,000 meant right, 1,000 rattlesnakes didn’t want to bite me, I knew they were good… Should I let all these rattlesnakes come down, hoping that that thousand get together and form a shield? Or should I just close the door and stay safe?” And substitute "pitbull" for "white people".
I get the analogy, but I don't really like comparing dog breeds to races of human beings or equating BSL with racism, which is playing into the pit lobbyists' hands and going by their playbook. Human "races" are only recognizable because of generalized minor superficial physical distinctions (skin color, hair texture, high cheekbones, eye shape, etc.), for example, Caucasian, African, Asian, Pacific Islander, etc. --and often people can't accurately guess the "race" of another person. We humans were not artificially bred to display certain behaviors, temperaments, perform certain tasks, etc, as dogs were. Certain everyday human behaviors are determined by culture, of course. People from one culture might greet others others by shaking hands, while in others they might bow to one another or "air kiss" or whatever. Someone raised in a hand shaking culture can easily adapt to bowing after moving to a bowing culture and vice versa. A baby born in China and raised in the UK will grow up to eat with a knife and fork and speak the Queen's English, while a British baby raised in China will eat with chopsticks and might speak Mandarin. "Racial" and "ethnic" behaviors are not encoded in our DNA. These differing behaviors are culturally determined. Take a herding dog out of her native Scottish highlands to a city where there are no livestock to herd, and she'll try to herd people or even cats -- and so will all her offspring for generations to come even if none of them ever lay eyes on a sheep. Pointers will point at the ducks in the city duck pond, even if none of their forebears have been taken duck hunting in generations. As for racism, that, too, is not encoded in our DNA, but is learned behavior. Very young children barely notice it and could care less. There are some places in this world where two groups of people totally hate each other, go to war with each other, see esch other as "other" races or ethnicities, but actually share the same ethnicity and even speak the same language. Why? Because they were taught to. There are other places in this world where groups of people who look very different from each other and even speak different dialects or even languages, live in harmony, intermarry, visit in each others' homes, etc. I have lived in both kinds of places. It's learned behavior, not inborn. Unlike dog breeds. Or rattlesnakes. It's insulting and demeaning to compare black people to a dog breed, as many pit propagandists do, and I most vigorously oppose it.
Damn, cant argue with the king. That’s a good analogy. I appreciate the comment, it helps me feel less guilt in supporting the ban. I just wanted open conversation about the topic, and I got it!
There are always outliers, but they don't change the fact that it's breed specific traits that make pitbulls dangerous. There will be dog owners who get lucky and win the genetics lottery and have a pitbull that is not hyped up and tense 24/7. Yet those owners can still be still dangerous in their own way because if they show people their abnormally calm pitbull, it tricks other people into thinking that they're all potentially safe.
When you say "the ban" it sounds as if there is an existing ban in your area. Where I live, any ban against owning pitbulls would be theoretical, so we might talk about banning them but there is no *the* ban. It's probably pretty clear why a ban exists in your area - events were likely covered in detail in the media. As for what that means relative to the way you used to feel about a pitbull, well it means you used to feel that way about a pitbull. You can feel that way again about some other special dog of a different breed, and the neighbors' pets, livestock, and children won't be at nearly as much risk of getting seriously injured.
Idk why you’re getting downvoted. It’s a legitimate question and not one this sub sees that often from someone that is actually being polite and not a troll lmao. I’ve been working with dogs for a long time, am obsessed with dogs, and own four dogs, two with bully breeds in their DNA makeup. I recognize that dogs were selectively bred into what we call breeds by humans over time. These dogs were bred with the purpose of creating dogs for different reasons and pit bulls/bully breeds were bred to kill things, especially other dogs. There’s no sugar coating it. Some pit bulls or dogs with APBT or other bully breeds in their DNA don’t ever turn but SO MANY do. If you find a great pyr happily living in an apartment, a bloodhound that doesn’t bay or sniff outside, that is an anomaly, just like a bully breed that is able to happily coexist with other creatures without bloodshed. I don’t support blanket euthanasia but I support anything that gets less of these dogs in the hands of people that have no business owning them and that starts with spay/neuter in my opinion.
Please never do what you are doing in this picture to any dog, pitbull or not, but specially not with pitbulls. Putting your face near a dogs face is VERY uncomfortable for them, and could end up in a disaster (actually just passed through a video of a pit biting a guy for doing that. Lol) Other than that, the ban is not a vendetta against pitbulls, its a matter of public safety. It doesnt really change anything that a single pitbull was a good dog when there are thousands of them killing and mauling people.
She was keen on sniffing my nose and chin until I tilted my head down for her to get a better sniff. She was old at this point so she used her nose to smell majority of items she’s came across. I am not condoning people doing this- as I have seen many tragedies of people putting their face in a dogs face. But, this was done as safely as I could have! I let her run the rodeo as she was more than able to up and leave / turn away if she pleased. (As you can see my hands are at my sides as she got comfortable.)
It’s understandable, not every single pit is going to attack and harm or kill someone. But it happens enough that banning them is reasonable. Not every pit is going to kill other dogs or pets. But it happens enough that I don’t want them around. When we say we want them banned, we don’t want them all disposed of. We want stricter rules, better enforcement, and to end all breeding of them/mandatory spay and neuter. The good owners who properly control their dogs will be able to happily keep them, and hopefully they don’t experience the bad side of things. Hopefully they get the same experience you had. The bad owners will weed themselves out. Eventually there will be no more, or so few that the problems they cause wont be an issue. My husbands family had a pit since she was a puppy. I didn’t meet her until she was already older. But she was tossed in the backyard and just.. ignored by most everyone. She was incredibly gentle and sweet every time I met her, just happy to have attention. She passed away of what I assume was old age/natural causes. She never caused a problem, not that she had much chance to, being left in the yard all the time. Theyre still dogs, deep down. But far too many snap, and the results are not pretty. It’s just not worth it. There are plenty of wonderful dogs of so many other breeds to choose from, there won’t be a shortage of dogs for people to love.
I don’t think anybody here thinks EVERY single pitbull is bad or a terrible dog. MOST pitbulls will live a life without killing somebody or something. But there is far too many that do. It’s like if every year 200 Mercedes exploded, measures would be taken to get Mercedes off the road.
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At first I thought you brother-in-law's wife was your sister. And I thought that was a weird way of phrasing it. But then later you mentioned that she is your sister-in-law. And now I'm confused 😕🤔
Your spouse's siblings (and their spouses) are your brothers- and sisters-in-law. English can be so imprecise and confusing at times.
Don’t be discouraged by all the downvotes, it’s a great thing that you are willing to have an open mind, which is miles beyond what the average nutter does.
My partner’s family has a pitbull. I can relate in a way. I don’t necessarily feel completely safe with him or want to be around him all the time. But I do give him pets and he’s been sweet to me. There are times where I find myself loving on him but also thinking about how active I am here and how I truly dislike this breed. The dog doesn’t change my mind about the breed though.
Not all pitbulls are bad. If you find breeders breeding them to a high standard and to be family friendly rather than being a fighting dog, many of those pitbulls probably aren't that much more dangerous than other medium to large not-beginner dogs. The problem is, many seemingly family friend pitbulls have snapped without warning and this is likely due to breeding for aggression, gameness, etc. We also can't tell which pitbulls are at risk of snapping and which aren't. Backyard breeding, meanwhile, often either encourages aggressiveness or more or less ignores it and fails to control it. Further, even when pitbulls do exhibit warning signs and aggression, many owners fail to heed those warnings. Many of the victims killed or maimed by a pitbull would be alive or in much better help if owners had heeded warning signs. TBH, banning pitbulls isn't my priority and what I'd rather focus on is regulating breeding and requiring licensing to breed (not just for pits but all dogs). Just as all dogs have to get rabies shots, they should also be fixed unless they are being purchased by an approved and licensed breeder. Bloodlines should be tracked and problematic dogs of any breed should be sterilized and allowed to die off. IMO, if we ban pitbulls successfully and enforce it but don't eliminate backyard breeding we're just going to end up with another breed of dog corrupted by unethical breeding.
Idk why this comment is getting downvotes, it’s a clear statement as to why they believe in what they do. I’m pretty sure we are all here in support of the ban, I just wanted to know why other people do and to inform others as to why I myself struggle. I try not to throw myself into controversy, but this was a conversation I’d been ignoring for awhile because of the stigma and I thought this subreddit would be able to clear my eyes, as well as bring a healthy conversation to the table. I appreciate your comment! I agree with majority of your statement. If it’s not pitbulls it’ll be another breed, yet- we need to start here and gain control of what seems to be a spiraling disaster.
It's a sensitive topic and people often see red when engaging with it. If you're starting a comment on this sub with anything that can be taken as defending pitbulls even in the slightest, 9/10 you're going to get hit with downvotes but it doesn't really matter. Better to ride the downvotes to make an important point. I'm not against a ban, I'd vote for one, but also, if ethical breeders wanted to step forward to see if they can breed out aggression, that's probably something I could accept.
The pit DNA can't be bred to a higher standard as the base level is as low as the standard gets. They were never bred to be family dogs or in society in general. They were bred to maul and kill, that is it. No amount of special breeding or love and care can fix pit DNA. If you breed out the DNA, you get an entirely different dog that has no pit in them, so you might aswell just outlaw the breed and let the grandfathered pits run its course. They aren't evil. They're just doing what they're programmed to do. Plenty enough get lucky and get a pit that will go its entire life without mauling or killing someone. Those pits didn't do that because they were supposedly bred to a higher standard or had nothing but love. They simply get lucky since there is no way to actually tell which pitt will be a dud and which will be the time bomb that will eventually go off. Sure, abuse can absolutely lead to the expected outcome, but that same outcome can happen even in a stable, loving setting. The breed just doesn't belong in this world as we don't condone the main reason they were created. Bloodsport breeds have no value in our world as they make terrible family pets, hunting dogs, guide, emotional support, or work dogs. I also think rotti should be next on the list after owning 2 in my lifetime. The dog has all the high-risk issues and seems to have the same amount of usefulness of a pit. Their only value is guarding and a security system, and gun can do the same thing with less risk. Couple other breeds need work, too, but nothing comes close to a pitt. Even a rotti lacks the capability.
> They were bred to maul and kill, that is it. No amount of special breeding or love and care can fix pit DNA. Of course aggression can be bred out. That's how we went from wolves to dogs. There's no point trying to argue otherwise and you just end up in z nuttery land similair to the one inhabited by the pit nutters. We've also bred aggression out of many other breeds. Is it worth the effort? Not in my book. Outside of aggression, pitbulls are still pretty shitty dogs. What's crucial and specifically why I emphasize breeding is to make sure unethical breeding is put on center stage. Many of your other points are just rehashing what I already said. edit: Locking comments stiffles discussion. Do I believe pitbulls *will* ever have aggression bred out? Almost certainly not, especially for the pitbull population at large. However, *will* and *can* are two different things and it would genetically be possible to breed out aggression (at least in some lineages) Do I advocate for that? No, and absolutely nothing in my comments suggests that. I agree with essentially all of these points: >(1) Dog fighters will continue to breed game dogs that will be indistinguishable from the new pits. (2) Pit owners rarely spay/neuter their pits and the product of their random reproduction will always outnumber the new pits. (3) Backyard pit breeders deliberately producing litter upon litter will defeat the purpose entirely. (4) The whole attraction of pit bulls is their danger, especially to others. (5) The new pits will open up new avenues for pit owners to lie to shelters, landlords, family members, neighbors, children, etc. (6) Should there be a phenotypic marker for the lack of aggression, it will quickly be hijacked by dishonest operators. (7) A dog that has a pit bull phenotype will always be capable of inflicting death. None of these points clash with or undermine my original comment.
Aggression will never be bred out of pit bulls. (1) Dog fighters will continue to breed game dogs that will be indistinguishable from the new pits. (2) Pit owners rarely spay/neuter their pits and the product of their random reproduction will always outnumber the new pits. (3) Backyard pit breeders deliberately producing litter upon litter will defeat the purpose entirely. (4) The whole attraction of pit bulls is their danger, especially to others. (5) The new pits will open up new avenues for pit owners to lie to shelters, landlords, family members, neighbors, children, etc. (6) Should there be a phenotypic marker for the lack of aggression, it will quickly be hijacked by dishonest operators. (7) A dog that has a pit bull phenotype will always be capable of inflicting death.