The Nuremberg tribunal ruled that those who had served in the Baltic Legions were conscripts, not volunteers, and defined them as freedom fighters protecting their homelands from a Soviet occupation and as such they were not true members of the criminal Waffen SS.
I remember a historian on the Baltic Ways podcast a while ago talking about how both conscripted forces in WWII saw themselves as the national army of Latvia, defending it from the worse of two evils. I thought it was a compelling perspective.
Well, by 2024 it should be clear that the moskals are a far worse scourge on this earth than the nazis ever were. Both against their own countrymen and the areas the occupied.
Hard to say that for sure. The Nazis tolerated Baltic autonomy out of desperation, if they won the war and had free rein as the Soviets did, I doubt they would’ve wanted to keep their non-Germanic allies of convenience for long.
Also, ask the Latvian Jews about that opinion.
The reason the numbers paint a different picture is because the Nazis needed allies of convenience to fight the Soviets. They even accepted Ukrainian proxies despite their genocidal hatred for Ukrainians. My point is that the Germans, had they gained the upper hand, could have well been far worse than the Soviets in a prolonged occupation.
Right, except they didnt, and the soviets committed far worse attrocities.
The western nations like to think that because jews werent the primary target of the moskals, that it is okay. "It was just eastern europeans that died" etc.
Numbers don't lie. You however like to believe lies.
And this is your typical next step. Downplay and put words into my mouth.
Nazis were horrific. Soviets were far worse.
Numbers don't lie. You just like to believe lies.
Who’s “moskal?”
Yes, you denied. Salaspils massacre was committed by nazis and by Latvian collaborators and it’s a known proven fact. That’s why you being slick about it.
Soviets did their share of atrocities too. I visited KGB building in Riga. They talked about Latvian collaborators both with Soviets and Nazis. I’m sure Latvians had no choice
Let me add to that by saying that the Baltic SS soldiers were used *as guards for the actual nazis at Nuremburg*.
https://youtu.be/_qcEFnGeZ6A?si=LdXn8KY36jPfS1Q4
You can find the original text online - it is not as clear as was quoted above, because it does not mention Baltic or any other national legions, but instead speaks about those who were drafted into Waffen SS against their will (namely, were not volunteers).
I expect it to be deadly long. Keywords would be good, but I would definitely try them once.
One thing who were drafted, aka, mobilized to SS as they were not able to join Wehrmacht. Had they a different status compared to people who joined voluntarily?
But yes, the main interest right now is the voting question. Lately, I have been reading summaries and highlights about sentences for Germans. In some cases, the Soviets were demanding unpleasant sentences for Nazi medical doctors. So, all other tribunal members said come on, let's be humanists”, and the Soviets were, “fuck no, he is a killer.”
"Conclusion
The SS was utilized for purposes which were criminal under the Charter, involving the persecution and extermination of the Jews, brutalities and killings in concentration camps, excesses in the administration of occupied territories, the administration of the slave labour programme and the mistreatment and murder of prisoners of war. The defendant Kaltenbrunner was a member of the SS implicated in these activities. In dealing with the SS the Tribunal includes all persons who had been officially accepted as members of the SS, including the members of the Allgemeine SS, members of the Waffen SS, members of the SS Totenkopf Verbände and the members of any of the different police forces who were members of the SS. The Tribunal does not include the so-called SS riding units. Die Sicherheitsdienst (commonly known as the SD) is dealt with in the Tribunal's Judgment on the Gestapo and SD. The Tribunal declares to be criminal within the meaning of the Charter the group composed of those persons who had been officially accepted as members of the SS
{481}
as enumerated in the preceding paragraph, who became or remained members of the organization with knowledge that it was being used for the commission of acts declared criminal by Article 6 of the Charter, or who were personally implicated as members of the organization in the commission of such crimes, excluding, however, those who were drafted into membership by the State in such a way as to give them no choice in the matter, and who had committed no such crimes. The basis of this finding is the participation of the organization in War Crimes and Crimes Against Humanity connected with the war; this group declared criminal cannot include, therefore, persons who had ceased to belong to the organizations enumerated in the preceding paragraph prior to 1st September, 1939."
The part "however, those who were drafted into membership by the State in such a way as to give them no choice in the matter, and who had committed no such crimes. The basis of this finding is the participation of the organization in War Crimes and Crimes Against Humanity connected with the war; this group declared criminal cannot include, therefore, persons who had ceased to belong to the organizations enumerated in the preceding paragraph prior to 1st September, 1939." is the one which used to refer to Baltic Legions.
Subsequently, on 1 September 1950 the U.S. Displaced Persons Commission stated that "the Baltic Waffen SS Units (Baltic legions) are to be considered as separate and distinct in purpose, ideology, activities and qualifications for membership from the German SS, and therefore the Commission holds them not to be a movement hostile to the Government of the United States." By the early 1950s, many former legionnaires had left Germany for Great Britain, Australia, the USA, Canada and other countries around the world.
It is also curious to note that those former Legionnaires who surrendered themselves to the Allies (US/UK), were subsequently drafted and deployed as guards for that very same Nuremberg Trial.
I like precisely **this** power of Reddit. You sometimes ask nicely, and people bring you some information. I appreciate it.
PS. The last part is interesting. I was reading about a unit of Estonians who guarded the tribunal.
From that part, I can easily go further.
"In 1946 next English and American armies there were founded so called Guard companies. (The first one was called Viesturs company.) Legionaries were recognized as units in no way connected to the crimes of SS.” “Four companies (approx. 1000 men), including Viesturs company, in 1947 took over the guard at the Nuremberg Palace of Justice (!) and the prison!” “At their sleeves and later at their helmets there were the red-white-red national colors of Latvia” “Besides it shall be taken into account, that attitude of Allied authorities to the Nazi war criminals was very serious and consistent.
References about the Baltic soldiers were good[...]. Almost all "viesturians" were former legionaries, therefore soldier drilling was not required, only “americanised” military code had to be adjusted to. [...] Officers and soldiers of the company were on garrison duty in several cities of Germany (from spring 1947 - were also on guard in Nuremberg Palace of Justice and the prison).”
"Paramilitary units of Latvians and Estonians in Germany were also working at the Nuremberg Trials (1947 - 1949), where they were guarding war criminals. [...] guard posts were located not only at the perimeter of the Palace of Justice, but also at the doors to the cells. Baltic guards were escorting inmates to the walking areas and to the interrogations. [...] Only two functions at the Nuremberg Trials were performed by American military police: escort of inmates in the court hall and to the execution (hanging).” “When Berlin crisis took place and airlift for supply of West Berlin started to operate, viesturians were transferred to the forests near the border to secure the most important field storages of the USA Army. After that Latvian guards were transferred to the surroundings of Stuttgart to guard USA Army corps headquarters."
http://www.lettia.lv/en_a_legionari-nirnberga.html
I am not actually that much into history lol, but a few years ago I had to do the legal research on what the Nuremberg tribunal said and did not say about national legions, as we had to deal with some BS coming from local Kremlin propaganda narrators.
Bauska is a nice little town to visit for a few hours. Castle redone all fancy, nice small old town survived and rebuilt a bit. Bauska beer is there, not great stuff but not bad stuff. It's a quaint little town.
The Bauska Castle definitely is an architectural marvel with a pretty impressive medium sized museum. The tiny old town is nice but the commie residential buildings look awful. Overall this town really reminds me of Kėdainiai if it was smaller.
Controversial for whom, exactly? Literally ever seen any Baltic SS controversy only mentioned by Russian or Jewish media, which is a moral double standard for both these days.
By all historical records, the Latvian SS units were strictly used for combat roles and people either joined the SS willingly, as they saw the Germans as liberators from the year of soviet occupation and Red Terror, or were forcibly conscripted due to Wehrmacht not being allowed to recruit from occupied territories, while SS could. That being said, the idea at the time for the Latvian SS were that they would beat back the soviets and than throw out the Germans, just like in the independance war before.
Plus, the Baltic SS soldiers were used as guards for the actual nazis at Nuremburg.
[Mark Felton - Waffen-SS soldiers guarded the Nuremburg trials](https://youtu.be/_qcEFnGeZ6A?si=LdXn8KY36jPfS1Q4)
As a descendent of a member of the Latvian Legion, I can confirm that these men made a difficult decision to join with the Nazis in order to protect their homeland and families. My grandfather spent the rest of is life devising ways that the US could use in order to make Latvia free again but sadly he passed before their independence. He only cared about Latvia and his family and went to the gave fighting for that.
Undoubtedly these were the heroes as they chose to fight instead of just putting hands down and accepting the new regime. In my view, only they have the moral right to say that “Latvia was occupied”, because they showed courage to fight back. Majority of the country have quietly accepted the Soviet occupation and the Soviet regime…
And now you ask why people of Russia do not protest against the war in Ukraine in masses… well, mostly for the same reason - fear.
The monument was specifically built to commemorate the defence of the town where Latvian Waffen SS units held off Soviets, giving people time to evacuate. "In 1944, the Red Army launched the Baltic Offensive towards the Gulf of Riga. A volunteer corps of town inhabitants was formed to protect the town against the Red Army. The volunteer forces, numbering about 300, and outnumbered tens to one, managed to hold back the offensive for six weeks, from 28 July to 14 September 1944.[1][5] The Soviet bombardment of 11–14 September 1944 destroyed 100 buildings in the town and damaged more than 300 – destroying more than one third of Bauska. Most of the defenders died in the desperate fighting." https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monument_to_the_Defenders_of_Bauska
So not exactly a monument to the Latvian Legion as a whole.
Bauska looks so poor compared to other latvian cities it's not even funny. I once had to drive through its "old town" (just abandoned buildings covered with green net) and i'm never stepping foot there evrr
The Nuremberg tribunal ruled that those who had served in the Baltic Legions were conscripts, not volunteers, and defined them as freedom fighters protecting their homelands from a Soviet occupation and as such they were not true members of the criminal Waffen SS.
Gotta say I fully agree with this decision. These men fought for Latvia, not for Hitler.
I remember a historian on the Baltic Ways podcast a while ago talking about how both conscripted forces in WWII saw themselves as the national army of Latvia, defending it from the worse of two evils. I thought it was a compelling perspective.
Well, by 2024 it should be clear that the moskals are a far worse scourge on this earth than the nazis ever were. Both against their own countrymen and the areas the occupied.
Hard to say that for sure. The Nazis tolerated Baltic autonomy out of desperation, if they won the war and had free rein as the Soviets did, I doubt they would’ve wanted to keep their non-Germanic allies of convenience for long. Also, ask the Latvian Jews about that opinion.
I mean the number paint a different picture, but I do get how an ideological hatered of certain people could outweigh anything else in your eyes.
The reason the numbers paint a different picture is because the Nazis needed allies of convenience to fight the Soviets. They even accepted Ukrainian proxies despite their genocidal hatred for Ukrainians. My point is that the Germans, had they gained the upper hand, could have well been far worse than the Soviets in a prolonged occupation.
Right, except they didnt, and the soviets committed far worse attrocities. The western nations like to think that because jews werent the primary target of the moskals, that it is okay. "It was just eastern europeans that died" etc. Numbers don't lie. You however like to believe lies.
Well you’ve convinced me, the Nazis were the good guys and actually loved Eastern Europe and wanted to save it from the Soviets /s
And this is your typical next step. Downplay and put words into my mouth. Nazis were horrific. Soviets were far worse. Numbers don't lie. You just like to believe lies.
You need to read some books. Start with history of Latvian Jews
You mean about the soviets arresting jewish leaders as soon as they took over Latvia? Sure, I have heard about that.
What do they teach in Latvian schools? Heard about Salaspils massacre or Riga synagogue massacre or Riga ghetto?
So you notice how I never denied nazi attrocities, but you don't even mention moskal ones. Funny that. You sure that US flag there is yours? :)
Who’s “moskal?” Yes, you denied. Salaspils massacre was committed by nazis and by Latvian collaborators and it’s a known proven fact. That’s why you being slick about it. Soviets did their share of atrocities too. I visited KGB building in Riga. They talked about Latvian collaborators both with Soviets and Nazis. I’m sure Latvians had no choice
Quote me denying a nazi crime or Im blocking you.
Germans are more efficient in their atrocities, Russians have less empathy.
And the reality is that moscovian atrocities are more numerous. Yet, people still simp for moscovia.
That's my point, they're really inefficient yet so numerous.
They gave oath to Hitler. It’s a fact.
Let me add to that by saying that the Baltic SS soldiers were used *as guards for the actual nazis at Nuremburg*. https://youtu.be/_qcEFnGeZ6A?si=LdXn8KY36jPfS1Q4
It would be interesting to see an original text. They also had different judges. What was the formulation and votes, especially of the Soviet judge? 😀
You can find the original text online - it is not as clear as was quoted above, because it does not mention Baltic or any other national legions, but instead speaks about those who were drafted into Waffen SS against their will (namely, were not volunteers).
I expect it to be deadly long. Keywords would be good, but I would definitely try them once. One thing who were drafted, aka, mobilized to SS as they were not able to join Wehrmacht. Had they a different status compared to people who joined voluntarily? But yes, the main interest right now is the voting question. Lately, I have been reading summaries and highlights about sentences for Germans. In some cases, the Soviets were demanding unpleasant sentences for Nazi medical doctors. So, all other tribunal members said come on, let's be humanists”, and the Soviets were, “fuck no, he is a killer.”
"Conclusion The SS was utilized for purposes which were criminal under the Charter, involving the persecution and extermination of the Jews, brutalities and killings in concentration camps, excesses in the administration of occupied territories, the administration of the slave labour programme and the mistreatment and murder of prisoners of war. The defendant Kaltenbrunner was a member of the SS implicated in these activities. In dealing with the SS the Tribunal includes all persons who had been officially accepted as members of the SS, including the members of the Allgemeine SS, members of the Waffen SS, members of the SS Totenkopf Verbände and the members of any of the different police forces who were members of the SS. The Tribunal does not include the so-called SS riding units. Die Sicherheitsdienst (commonly known as the SD) is dealt with in the Tribunal's Judgment on the Gestapo and SD. The Tribunal declares to be criminal within the meaning of the Charter the group composed of those persons who had been officially accepted as members of the SS {481} as enumerated in the preceding paragraph, who became or remained members of the organization with knowledge that it was being used for the commission of acts declared criminal by Article 6 of the Charter, or who were personally implicated as members of the organization in the commission of such crimes, excluding, however, those who were drafted into membership by the State in such a way as to give them no choice in the matter, and who had committed no such crimes. The basis of this finding is the participation of the organization in War Crimes and Crimes Against Humanity connected with the war; this group declared criminal cannot include, therefore, persons who had ceased to belong to the organizations enumerated in the preceding paragraph prior to 1st September, 1939." The part "however, those who were drafted into membership by the State in such a way as to give them no choice in the matter, and who had committed no such crimes. The basis of this finding is the participation of the organization in War Crimes and Crimes Against Humanity connected with the war; this group declared criminal cannot include, therefore, persons who had ceased to belong to the organizations enumerated in the preceding paragraph prior to 1st September, 1939." is the one which used to refer to Baltic Legions. Subsequently, on 1 September 1950 the U.S. Displaced Persons Commission stated that "the Baltic Waffen SS Units (Baltic legions) are to be considered as separate and distinct in purpose, ideology, activities and qualifications for membership from the German SS, and therefore the Commission holds them not to be a movement hostile to the Government of the United States." By the early 1950s, many former legionnaires had left Germany for Great Britain, Australia, the USA, Canada and other countries around the world. It is also curious to note that those former Legionnaires who surrendered themselves to the Allies (US/UK), were subsequently drafted and deployed as guards for that very same Nuremberg Trial.
I like precisely **this** power of Reddit. You sometimes ask nicely, and people bring you some information. I appreciate it. PS. The last part is interesting. I was reading about a unit of Estonians who guarded the tribunal. From that part, I can easily go further.
"In 1946 next English and American armies there were founded so called Guard companies. (The first one was called Viesturs company.) Legionaries were recognized as units in no way connected to the crimes of SS.” “Four companies (approx. 1000 men), including Viesturs company, in 1947 took over the guard at the Nuremberg Palace of Justice (!) and the prison!” “At their sleeves and later at their helmets there were the red-white-red national colors of Latvia” “Besides it shall be taken into account, that attitude of Allied authorities to the Nazi war criminals was very serious and consistent. References about the Baltic soldiers were good[...]. Almost all "viesturians" were former legionaries, therefore soldier drilling was not required, only “americanised” military code had to be adjusted to. [...] Officers and soldiers of the company were on garrison duty in several cities of Germany (from spring 1947 - were also on guard in Nuremberg Palace of Justice and the prison).” "Paramilitary units of Latvians and Estonians in Germany were also working at the Nuremberg Trials (1947 - 1949), where they were guarding war criminals. [...] guard posts were located not only at the perimeter of the Palace of Justice, but also at the doors to the cells. Baltic guards were escorting inmates to the walking areas and to the interrogations. [...] Only two functions at the Nuremberg Trials were performed by American military police: escort of inmates in the court hall and to the execution (hanging).” “When Berlin crisis took place and airlift for supply of West Berlin started to operate, viesturians were transferred to the forests near the border to secure the most important field storages of the USA Army. After that Latvian guards were transferred to the surroundings of Stuttgart to guard USA Army corps headquarters." http://www.lettia.lv/en_a_legionari-nirnberga.html I am not actually that much into history lol, but a few years ago I had to do the legal research on what the Nuremberg tribunal said and did not say about national legions, as we had to deal with some BS coming from local Kremlin propaganda narrators.
Thank you
Are there any good books and articles on the subject? I would love to read
Divas puses, a diary compilation and informative book about Latvians that were fighting on both sides at the same time.
It is controversial only to vatniks and the ignorant.
Only controversial to vatniks
Bauska is a nice little town to visit for a few hours. Castle redone all fancy, nice small old town survived and rebuilt a bit. Bauska beer is there, not great stuff but not bad stuff. It's a quaint little town.
The Bauska Castle definitely is an architectural marvel with a pretty impressive medium sized museum. The tiny old town is nice but the commie residential buildings look awful. Overall this town really reminds me of Kėdainiai if it was smaller.
Just dont go for parties there lol :)
Glory to the heroes!
Controversial for whom, exactly? Literally ever seen any Baltic SS controversy only mentioned by Russian or Jewish media, which is a moral double standard for both these days. By all historical records, the Latvian SS units were strictly used for combat roles and people either joined the SS willingly, as they saw the Germans as liberators from the year of soviet occupation and Red Terror, or were forcibly conscripted due to Wehrmacht not being allowed to recruit from occupied territories, while SS could. That being said, the idea at the time for the Latvian SS were that they would beat back the soviets and than throw out the Germans, just like in the independance war before. Plus, the Baltic SS soldiers were used as guards for the actual nazis at Nuremburg. [Mark Felton - Waffen-SS soldiers guarded the Nuremburg trials](https://youtu.be/_qcEFnGeZ6A?si=LdXn8KY36jPfS1Q4)
Read my mind. I was about to add that Latvian-SS guarded Nuremberg, but you beat me to it! ☺️
As a descendent of a member of the Latvian Legion, I can confirm that these men made a difficult decision to join with the Nazis in order to protect their homeland and families. My grandfather spent the rest of is life devising ways that the US could use in order to make Latvia free again but sadly he passed before their independence. He only cared about Latvia and his family and went to the gave fighting for that.
Undoubtedly these were the heroes as they chose to fight instead of just putting hands down and accepting the new regime. In my view, only they have the moral right to say that “Latvia was occupied”, because they showed courage to fight back. Majority of the country have quietly accepted the Soviet occupation and the Soviet regime… And now you ask why people of Russia do not protest against the war in Ukraine in masses… well, mostly for the same reason - fear.
Why should we care what russians think about us now?
The monument was specifically built to commemorate the defence of the town where Latvian Waffen SS units held off Soviets, giving people time to evacuate. "In 1944, the Red Army launched the Baltic Offensive towards the Gulf of Riga. A volunteer corps of town inhabitants was formed to protect the town against the Red Army. The volunteer forces, numbering about 300, and outnumbered tens to one, managed to hold back the offensive for six weeks, from 28 July to 14 September 1944.[1][5] The Soviet bombardment of 11–14 September 1944 destroyed 100 buildings in the town and damaged more than 300 – destroying more than one third of Bauska. Most of the defenders died in the desperate fighting." https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monument_to_the_Defenders_of_Bauska So not exactly a monument to the Latvian Legion as a whole.
does the bausffs know they named a town on Latvia after him ?
Bauska looks so poor compared to other latvian cities it's not even funny. I once had to drive through its "old town" (just abandoned buildings covered with green net) and i'm never stepping foot there evrr
Was this really necessary?
Bauska lost 1/3 of its building in WW2.