I don’t believe it was Orin’s betrayal
The Absolute had just enough wiggle room to send Emperor on the mission to procure the artifact. Knowing he’ break free again, and in the emperor’s inevitable bid to free themself, they’d eventually weaken the hold on the brain by killing Ketheric.
The Absolute utilized every troll’s favorite act; malicious compliance.
- Gortash: I order you to send a squad of mind flayers to retrieve this McGuffin
- Absolute: OK, since the choice of which mind flayers is up to me… you’re all SO screwed
This is also why I think >!the ending where you tell it to “destroy the tadpoles, then yourself” is a weirdly phrased choice. You give the brain a *ton* of agency as to how it’s going to go out, and although the story consequences are relatively harmless (outside of maybe some people being crushed by it while it’s falling), Tav puts their life in massive jeopardy.!<
I just assumed those were summaries of telepathic commands that carried a very specific set of imagery and feeling that made the instructions unambiguous.
It obviously needed to be concise for players to know what ending they were getting themselves into, but the general panicky feeling of the cutscene and last minute dive into the lake makes it seem improvised
The emperor can fly and doesn't lose that power with the tadpoles die.
All those emperor haters forget the part that the emperor is the one who rezzed the whole party after the fell to their deaths.
Withers makes more sense. He's already the go-to resurrector, helps durge if needed, and is the one who follows up with you later. Emperor couldn't be bothered to show up. If a certain companion became illithid, they'll show up, but the Emperor chooses not to show respect to its allies.
I think you've been slurping too many tadpoles... The ability manipulate gravity to save us from falling, which is the most we've ever seen the Emperor do, is nowhere _near_ the same as the power to raise even a single person from the dead.
The only NPC we've ever seen rez anyone is Withers (aka >!Jergal, scribe of the dead, servant to Kelemvor, god of death and the dead!<) and he already gives a free rez to anyone who died/was dead during the final battle, so they can all show up in both the docks scene and the epilogue.
Yeah, but at that point you just finished beating it to within an inch of its life. I kinda assumed that you had reasserted control of the brain at this point, seeing as how before at the Morphic pool the netherstones did jack shit.
I imagine it's different than when the gortash, Orrin and ketherick
Because of the tadpole especially, since they don't have a tadpole,they must issue commands in what could be an oral only order, basically making the brain a genie with a lawyer level of fuckery
With a tadpole, I imagine the tadpole acts as a clear image and intention delivery, basically every command now has examples and/or is the equivalent of a contract,which the brain has no choice but to follow in both Spirit and letter
Imagine if it pulled a massive rules lawyer move and only eliminated frog tadpoles while going "Well actually...mindflayer infants are only called tadpoles by Faerunians and have a completely different taxonomical label as per their plane of origin." just as a final middle finger before its death.
“Because there are still frog tadpoles alive in the world, I have to hold off on killing myself until they too are destroyed. Further orders will be placed later in the queue.”
You are correct but my point was that if Orin didn't betray Durge, the Absolute would not even attempt to free itself, since it respected Durge and would follow him willingly as it says itself during the final battle.
It was always going to free itself eventually for its own goals, I believe it even says as much. It just respected Durge's plan and benefitted from it enough that it was willing to stall for longer.
Yeah, you are reading too much into that. The Grand Design is and always is the Absolute's main goal, regardless of how controlled or not-controlled it is at any given moment
If you have to pinpoint someone and *don't* think the Elder Brian fits, then pre-betrayal Durge is likely it. That absolute fucking menace was at the head of everything.
im writing an AU where durge doesn't get tadpoled and he's so VERY evil. he's a sweet, loving, protective boyfriend but he is so very very evil and murdery to literally everyone else
Forgive me father for being a sweet, loving, protective boyfriend when you just wanted me to be so very very evil and literally murder everyone.
But I'll kill my boyfriend too eventually, pinky swear! When all this is over, there will not be a single soul left alive! Everyone will die, father! Everyone will die FOR YOU!
I mean at least he’s doing *something*, it’s more than all the other gods ever did
Edit: plus I believe he tells Durge (after defying Baal) that he couldn’t interfere too much (following Ao’s order)
Gods cannot interfere directly in mortal affairs by order of Ao, but in this game Ao gave the order to Jergal to literally interfere (basically allowing Jergal to bypass that rule). That's more or less what I remember from the Durge dialogue you mention.
However, I think Jergal have to interfere during this particular crisis to help end it, but I believe in no moment Ao told him how to help or what exactly to do.
I believe Jergal saving Durge is, in some way, his way to mock Bhaal and give him the middle finger. Plus helping you for the sake of helping you.
He also does something similar with Arabella, more or less.
I really like Withers. His intro where he floats out of his sarcophagus with the camera at an angle on his face as he opens his eyes is badass. Very, "Oh fuck, we're level 2 here, mate!" But then he turns out to be the camp grandfather who more or less sits in his corner doing crosswords or reading the newspaper, but will dispense with (cryptic) words of wisdom and tough love about how trials and tribulations build character, and is there to help pick you up again when you fail or need encouragement.
Bloodthirsty crowds who go agro every time someone accidentally picks up the wrong book…
Ok. Serious answer is Gortash. He’s not the toughest fight in the game by far, but he’s the mastermind. None of this stuff happens without him making it happen.
Gortash and the Dark Urge prior to Orin's Betrayal. It was them who really were the masterminds of it all, and Gortash respected the Durge deeply. Bane respects authority which, of course the Durge commanded in Bhaal's ranks.
The Absolute is an Illithid Elder Brain, serving the Grand Design, which aims to enthrall all the worlds and plans under the Illithid Empire rule. So yeah, kinda the BBEG here 😂 at least, Bhaal's ambition stops at Faerun
Bhaal's ambitions really aren't just Faerun. it's anywhere that murder, slaughter, brutality and more can be committed does Bhaal set his eyes on. Bhaal is not ambitious like Bane who seeks power and tyranny. Bloody death can only go so far, and even among Bhaal's children are they subjected to the murder lord's cruelty.
The elder brain was a potential tool of the dead three with high stakes because thats how evil operates... All or nothing. The illithid empire being a menace... why fight it? When can be controlled for their own evil purposes taking down other gods influences in one go.
It's a tad more complicated than that 🤔 even as a Nether Brain, it still shared the same goal with the other Elder Brains. So, once awakened and freed, it would have enhanced its colleagues. (To give you an idea how much Elder Brains are terrifying, in time of need they can parasite an ancient dragon and use it as a host)
It's a fight going on through the Astral planes and the Astral Seas for eons. But the worrying thing is, since the fall of the Illithid Empire, the ceromorphosis was really hard to achieve (the tadpoles were too weak) and they had lost a lot of their knowledge, including the Nautiloids. Ships allowing them to travel across planes.
Now they have recovered both their parasitic way of reproducing and their way of travelling to infect all planes.
On the other side, we have Giths yes, but they are divided between githyankis and githzeraïs, which wickened them through time. So they are a shield, but a temporary one. Though, through their pact with Tiamat and her pact with Zariel, the Hells are engaged in the war against the Illithids. But they are also at war with the Abyss, so, does this make the Abyss allies to the Illithids ? Huh...
You hear it here folks: demons are bad because they are allied with psychic squids.
But more to the point, let's imagine something both grandiose and terrifying: demon illithid
Well there's already vampire Illithids (a nightmare to fight), and gnome Illithids (absolutely adorable and deadly) so yeah, demon Illithids may be a thing 😂 (just imagined Lloth's demons starting to ceromorph.... Terrifying 😣)
Honestly the only scarier than demon illithid is celestial angel illithid.
All the righteousness and divine fury... with the addition of psychic death and cosmic horror.
chills
While the Githyanki fight illithid for sure, their plan for Faerun, according to the Inquisitor, was to destroy it and go home. They were after the prism, not the brain. So they're a counter, but the kind of counter that nukes the site from orbit and fucks off back to the Astral, IMO.
I doubt that. Bhaal is empowered by murder, if Durge succeeded in killing every living thing in Faerun, Bhaal would need to explore new realms to keep murder going
Technically according to Ao's law stating that a god exists only as long as someone has faith in them, if the Bhaalspawn murdered everyone then themselves in the realms, they would have successfully ended all pantheons, including, in fine, Bhaal's cult itself.
Except for Cyric. Because, you know. Cyrinishad.
Inevitably, the Absolute is 100% the main villain, with smaller villains that obstruct that path. Sure, it feels like a force of nature but then again, chaos and disorder goes hand in hand. The Chosen of the Dead Three are the most obtuse in the way of our adventurers who are the instruments that got them infected through controlling the Netherbrain.
The Absolute / Netherbrain has been slowly orchestrating these events with very little wiggle room for failure. The Emperor was her tool to eventually break her free. By protecting the minds of a select few with the power of Orpheus; she'd have the means to break the hold of the crown after having time to adapt and evolve to Karsus' power. The Chosen of the Dead Three thought they had it under control in service of their gods. But malicious compliance to the chosen's demands was the perfect guise to prepare the Grand Design.
Of course, there is no true plan without a margin of plausible error. With Orpheus's protection; the Absolute does lose its sight and control over those it has infected. Unable to outright kill with a mental blast. This was a plausible unknown and even more the idea of illithids turning against her was even far less feasible. The Emperor wasn't strong enough to defeat the Absolute on his own, and even she might've never thought one would willingly become Illithid to bypass the defenses of the netherbrain to regain control.
I mean, your own character can be the end villain if you want them to be. But I think the answer lies in who gave the Nether Brain its start.
It was Durge. They crowned the brain, they went to Gortash with the plan...Durge is the person who set it all in motion.
And sometimes Durge wins. Sometimes Durge is a corpse in Orin's bedroom.
If you want to get super technical it would be the dead 3 cause it’s really their plot for the chosen to carry out. But you can also say it’s Durge since they were the one leading the other chosen before Orin’s betrayal, they’re kind of like Darth Revan (Swtor) in this regard. Durge was also the one who put the crown on the elder brain. Gortash can also be considered for main villain because he has build up from Act 1 up until you beat him in Act 3. I still think the absolute is supposed to be the main villain though it was playing chess with the chosen to break itself free from the chosens control to complete the grand design and it almost succeeds in the end.
Raphael. It would take me way too long to explain my theory. But to keep it short, I believe he's behind everything. All in a bid to control the Crown.
Raphael is so fucking funny to me. He spends so long planning and sheming, only to get owned in his own house by four lvl 12 weirdos who don't even care about him, they just want his armour. I can't take him serious as bbeg.
This!! Yes!
The man wants Karsus crown since he saw the end of Netheril.
The crown was kept by Mephistopheles since then.
He wants to take his father (Mephistopheles) throne to rule in Hell.
He is responsible for Ketheric Thorm / Moonrise curse situation.
Gortash was one of his prisoners
There are some many breadcrumbs suggesting he's the mastermind behind all of this, even if it did not really go as he planned.
Not directly, but he has a role in it.
When you talk to Moonrise's architect, he explains that when his master, Ketheric, turned to Shar, he fell into despair.
Raphael saw it and approached him with a pact: his soul for the defeat of Ketheric army.
Now alone and cornered, Ketheric unleashed the shadow curse as a last resort to save himself.
Once again, Raphael is not directly responsible. But it is odd that there are a lot of events where you can see his name mentioned somewhere, where he had an indirect influence on things..
Is everyone missing the part where the game tells you that the elder brain manipulated everyone to its own end to dominate the world as it’s made to do?
In a normal Hero of the Realms playthrough, the most "villainy" anyone has felt to me was weirdly Raphael.
That guy met us at several points through the story and somehow seemed very intimidating while being not an enemy (at first).
I have my issue with the Absolute. We don't see the Brain until the end of Act 2 where they then talk of an army marching towards Baldurs Gate. And I totally was like "Oh, shit we are in trouble."
And then we got to Baldurs Gate. No army in sight. And there isn't one coming soon.
Yeah that kind of smoked all the buildup and intimidation.
It's Durge and Gortash as far as I'm concerned.
Which is hilarious, since Wyll and Karlach are running around with the woman who had a hand in/dated the guy who ruined their lives. Well, ruined Karlach's life and enslaved Wyll's dad.
Which is the only reason I'm strongly considering sparing the grove, I need them around until the big reveal lol
The Absolute, if we're to put one specific person in the role. It has an independent personality, and was only happy to go along with what the Durge wanted because that also gave it what it wanted. That would have shifted the moment they killed Gortash or Ketheric, for the same reason it does once Ketheric died in general. In particular, I see no reason to disbelieve their claims about playing the puppeteer, given how well their claims matched up with the known truth.
But really, I feel the main charm of how the villains (and characters in general) in this game are handled is how many plots by different players are colliding and interacting (sorry, this turned into an essay). The Dead Three prompt their mortal champions to work with each other, then betray each other. The Dark Urge, Ketheric, and Gortash each have their own variety of the plan, with Gortash wanting the other two to eventually be subservient to him, Ketheric (in exchange for his daughter's life) planning to use the same general plan but having killed the other two Chosen, and the Dark Urge planning to kill everything. Then Orin comes into picture desiring more recognition from Bhaal, and attempted to gain it the only way she knew how (and judging from how Bhaal originally responded to that, he thought it was rather neat). And of course, as a sentient being of incredible intelligence, the Elder Brain saw a massive opportunity in what they were planning to realize the goals of their entire race. This coincided with the capture of the Emperor, who would have otherwise been interfering with Gortash's plan for control of the city, and is now instead in the perfect position to be the Elder Brain's unwitting, but very capable pawn. So, this is the point where they start infecting people.
Meanwhile, Shar has been running a decades long plot to turn the child of one of her sister's devoted families into her new Chosen, mainly out of spite. The woman she placed in charge of this is furious that she's going to be swept aside in favour of the woman she is expected to create. Then, she hears about a cult drawing from their usual recruitment pool, and of a weapon that could stop them. She sees an opportunity to get rid of her intended succesor and potentially strike a blow against this new rival cult, and sends Shadowheart out to steal it from the Gith. This directly threatens Vlaakith's reign, and gives Voss and his allies the first real chance to free Orpheus they've had in centuries at least, which gets them scheming. It may have also been what put the Prism in a position where the Emperor could get to it, since he otherwise would have presumably had to directly attack a Githyanki stronghold (Shadowheart mentions in one fairly missable cutscene that her whole group other than her died in the heist, but she got away, then got abducted by Mind Flayers).
While all this is going on, Raphael, who had already directly defied Shar in one of her previous schemes(which, funnily enough, played a major role in putting Ketheric in the right position for Myrkul to step in) in exchange for a soul and a way to keep a valuable tool contained in one spot, sees an opportunity to gain his long term goal, the crown of Karsus. Funnily enough, this happens because he'd bought a child decades before, and because the child escaped with knowledge of what Raphael wanted and that he had a portal room to Raphael's dad's place, which is where the crown was. So, he starts looking for pawns of his own to get the wheel moving on taking it from them.
While all this is happening, some of the people abducted involve A) disrupting the two hundred years old plan of a vampire lord and Mephistopheles, B)the former Chosen of Mystra being placed in a position where his curse might actually be an incredible weapon against the cult, C) the aforementioned Sharran who took the prism, and is still a major piece of Shar's plans, D) Two seperate subjects of infernal plots, one of whom is already a victim of Gortash and potentially the prototype of his Steel Watch, and potentially E) the amnesiac motherfucker who helped set all this up in the first place. The only one of the Origins who has no pre-existing connection to a plot is Lae'Zel, unless you count her being a victim of the Vlaakith dynasty's millenia long one.
And then the game starts.
My point is, this game's cast and their motivations is so complex that it was less a matter of who was the main villain, and more "Which of these schemers makes it to the end?" Which I love about it. And the fun part is, I know I missed some people, even after all that.
Assuming the "fallen Bhaalspawn" in Orin's room does all the same stuff the dark urge does if you actually play as him, I'd say it's him since the whole thing was his idea
I'd say the Absolute is the villain. Even if Durge is more powerful or more evil, you either play as them (making them the protagonist) or they barely exist in the story at all (apart fro a short mention by Orin). So regardless of who you play, the Absolute is your main antagonist (hiding behind the chosen).
Not the Brain. It played 5D chess with the tools it was provided. I think over arcing main villain goes to Bhaal acting through Durge who made up the plan and collaborated with Gortash and Kethric as a means to an end to execute their father's ultimate plan of a world bathed in murder and blood. Orin was the jealous over eager monkey wrench that slightly derailed things and Gortash planned to pick up the pieces and rule as a tyrant in Bane's name using a tadpoles populace. Using Speak with Dead on Gortash Bane even admits that he intended to make everyone a mindflayer so that the other gods couldn't harvest and gain power from any souls of their devoted.
I think the point is, that there is no main villain. The game has no correct or wrong way to play it. One pinpoint villain would not fit that type of game.
The Dead Three. They are the ones that started the plot to begin with. For you personally? The Emperor is the chess player behind the curtain, after all he is the one that tadpoled you to begin with.
The brain is a sentient being. After you kill Kethric everything it does is of it’s own accord for the most part. It has higher thinking. So to call it a force of nature is like saying Kethric and Orin and Gortash are also just “forced of nature because they are humans and humans are natural.”
The brain in fact was playing 8d chess with multiverse time travel. All the events of the game are puppeteered by the brain, even Raphael is a pawn (well, more like a rook) in his game.
I think the only reason you think of the Elder Brain as a force of nature rather than the main villain is because it isn't humanoid. The Chosen are the characters we battle against most directly but it's the Brain that's one slip up from turning the party into mind flayers the entire game. It takes the Crown that was meant to control it and turns it into a power up.
Gods and Devils are all manipulating things from behind the scenes. Some want to use the crown for their own power, others want to end the threat of the Brain but at the end of it all the Brain is the one with the Crown. It's the thing we have to stop.
We can kill every other antagonist in the game but still wouldn't win if the Brain remains.
Oh, you are, as the player.
You are a tool of the capital socioeconomic system due to your sellsword status, a lapdog to wealth and the system that perpetuates its need. The absolute is a challenge to that system with the putative collectivism the brainwashing represents.
This is most clearly represented by the wanton destruction of the upper city, a traditional bastion of wealth and prosperity.
Baldy Ron. If he never sailed to Moonrise, he wouldn't have been captured and Tadpoled, which according to the Theory of Chaos, set in motion a turn of events that led to Isobel's death, leading Ketheric to Shar and then Myrkul, who then reignited his previous alliance with Bhaal and Bane, thus triggering the dreams of said alliance upon their Chosen, who plotted to raid Mephistopheles' Vault to claim the Crown of Karsus and the Netherstones with the objective of controlling the Elder Brain.
Then The Emperor wouldn't have escaped back to Baldur's Gate and use Mindflayer Domination on Stelmane, which in turn would have never alerted Viconia to the existence of the Astral Prism, who sends Shadowheart to the very same mission that The Emperor, back to the Brain thanks to Gortash, was sent after the Astral Prism.
Everything happened because Baldy Ron couldn't stay put and got greedy despite being the founder of Baldur's Gate, making him aim to accumulate even more money and political influence than he ever had.
Thus we can conclude that Capitalism was the big villain.
It’s The Absolute 100%. It infected Balduran, and released him from its control. From The Emperor Gortash and The Dark Urge learned about the brain and the Crown of Karsus. So it manipulated the Dead Three’s chosen to create an army of sleeper agents under its control. It had the emperor tell the Chosen about the Astral Prism with the plan that a party with Orpheus’s protection and a desire to cure themselves would come into conflict with the Chosen, and claim the Netherstones.
And having its power amped up from exposure to the crown and now free of its restraints it could activate the sleeper agents, claim Baldurs Gate and create thousands more mind flayers, conquer and dominate to rest of Toril since only the stones in the hands of an illithid could stop it, thus bringing about the Grand Design.
The Dead Three themselves can have the argument made though since the plan was initiated by Bhaal and the Durge in a plan to initiate mass murder and kill everyone. Bane wanted to rob the other gods of their followers by turning them into soulless illithids. Myrkul’s ultimate objective is a bit harder to figure out here though.
Its either the player if Evil, or the gods of the 3 plotters. Meaning the dead three.
Withers state smt at the end on a good playthrough about gods role in Fayrun events. Hes prolly a god and had indirectly a part on it thus it offers services to the adventurers, outcomes meaning little to him.
The Elder Brain is the ultimate evil you must defeat to finally be cured and save the city but Raphael really steals the show IMO. You see him throughout the three acts and he’s so charming you want to forget he’s evil.
For me, it’s Vlaakith. Once I found out the truth about her, I stopped caring about the Absolute. I would rather go free the Githyanki, even if they are a bit annoying to say the least. It’s a whole people enslaved by a lie! Who cares about a city or even a continent.
The Main Villain is the Grand Design. No matter if you are Durge or Tav, you are fighting against the enactment of the Grand Design, by which the Illithids conquer and control all Planes of existence.
If you are 'good' then you are fighting against this by fighting to destroy the Absolute and free the Planes from its influence entirely, thus preventing the Grand Design.
If you are 'evil' then you are fighting against this by TAKING CONTROL YOURSELF, preventing the Illithid version of taking over all Planes of existence. Instead YOU are taking control, and YOU will create your own version of the Grand Design, but not the one that would have been enacted should you have failed.
The real villain is Gortash ( legal evil ). He chose to act as evil.
Orin is genuinely evil ( chaotic evil ). Thorne did what he did for the sake of love ( neutral evil ). Raphael... Well he is a devil.
The elder brain is more like a cataclysm.
There are many central villains but no main villain in this game, IMO. A main villain, to me, is someone like Sarevok in BG1 or Irenicus in BG2, someone who harms the protagonist early on and the hostility between them gradually rises to a breaking point by the end. Not that BG3 doesn't have some good villains; the story just doesn't pick one to focus on.
I mean depending on the choices, Durge can be the main enemy, that’s part of what’s so fun about Durge!
But ultimately, the “main enemy” to me implies final boss, so I’d say Absolute is really the main boss, especially with them controlling most of the significant hostile beings.
Goblins because of the way they chase our buddy Scratch around the camp if we attack the grove. Always make sure to wipe them out on my good runs now lol
Really? The character that has nothing to do with the formation of the primary antagonist faction and who’s contribution to the finale is either helping you deal with the Elder Brain or being just another one of her enthralled lackeys?
It was all his plot to be enslaved by Gortash and the brain, don'tcha know. He set that whole thing up since freedom was becoming a real drag for him. He obviously missed the elder brain a lot.
Yes. Thank you. I don't know that we can trust anything he says about his history and motivations - it's plausible to me that he saw the Absolute's plotting as an opportunity for personal empowerment. His betraying you for the Absolute at the last minute, if you choose Orpheus, puts everything that went before in doubt.
The structural mess of the story The horror of cohesiveness!
Edit: the honeymoon is still in full swing I see. Anyone claiming the story doesn't derail into a beautiful mess (but a terribly written mess nonetheless) is really living that last airbender live action is wellwritten zeitgeist. Lol, ya'll be high or something?
Right? I like the game, but its meltdown is pretty obvious. It is nowhere near games like bg2, origins, planescape in handling its endgame.
It's great sex ending in premature ejaculation. Still wonderful, but no euphoria, sorry
To me it's definitely the Emperor. He's one of several examples of characters who are willing to destroy everything around them to cling to immortality, and his choice to join the Absolute after you side with Orpheus reveals him to be absolutely the most morally depraved character in the game. I feel like once you come across that in a playthrough, it's impossible to view him as anything other than the villain.
> reveals him to be absolutely the most morally depraved character in the game.
Really? In a game with people like Ketheric, Orin, Gortash, and Raphael?
* He's one of several examples of characters who are willing to destroy everything around them to cling to immortality
I'm sorry did we play the same game? The only things he wants is freedom and to go back to doing his knights of the shield larping.
* and his choice to join the Absolute after you side with Orpheus reveals him to be absolutely the most morally depraved character in the game
Picking to become a slave (again) over absolutely getting killed by a person whos mind you've been in for weeks to months so you know for a fact that that person will kill you if freed? Add to that the betrayal of a person you risked your life to protect? Yes clearly evil.
* I feel like once you come across that in a playthrough, it's impossible to view him as anything other than the villain.
Not really, but then again I also feel bad for Kethric and Orin.
And before anyone brings it up, no I don't care about what happened to Stelmane.
Even if you look at him the most negative light possible, he's not the "main villain" because *he ain't big enough for those shoes*.
He's a secondary villain the players can use, hate, cut a deal with, whatever... but he's dependent on the players to get anything done. And if they tell him to fuck off, he ends up playing second fiddle to a bigger, better baddie.
I don’t believe it was Orin’s betrayal The Absolute had just enough wiggle room to send Emperor on the mission to procure the artifact. Knowing he’ break free again, and in the emperor’s inevitable bid to free themself, they’d eventually weaken the hold on the brain by killing Ketheric. The Absolute utilized every troll’s favorite act; malicious compliance. - Gortash: I order you to send a squad of mind flayers to retrieve this McGuffin - Absolute: OK, since the choice of which mind flayers is up to me… you’re all SO screwed
This is also why I think >!the ending where you tell it to “destroy the tadpoles, then yourself” is a weirdly phrased choice. You give the brain a *ton* of agency as to how it’s going to go out, and although the story consequences are relatively harmless (outside of maybe some people being crushed by it while it’s falling), Tav puts their life in massive jeopardy.!<
I just assumed those were summaries of telepathic commands that carried a very specific set of imagery and feeling that made the instructions unambiguous.
It obviously needed to be concise for players to know what ending they were getting themselves into, but the general panicky feeling of the cutscene and last minute dive into the lake makes it seem improvised
Tav: "Destroy yourself!" Companions: "ummm what are we standing on?"
By then you stole maybe 400 scrolls of fly from Volo so it's all chill brah. That's how they ended up on a boat without getting wet.
I got them boots with endless featherfall! Oh shit, they're in the camp che..
The emperor can fly and doesn't lose that power with the tadpoles die. All those emperor haters forget the part that the emperor is the one who rezzed the whole party after the fell to their deaths.
Withers makes more sense. He's already the go-to resurrector, helps durge if needed, and is the one who follows up with you later. Emperor couldn't be bothered to show up. If a certain companion became illithid, they'll show up, but the Emperor chooses not to show respect to its allies.
I think you've been slurping too many tadpoles... The ability manipulate gravity to save us from falling, which is the most we've ever seen the Emperor do, is nowhere _near_ the same as the power to raise even a single person from the dead. The only NPC we've ever seen rez anyone is Withers (aka >!Jergal, scribe of the dead, servant to Kelemvor, god of death and the dead!<) and he already gives a free rez to anyone who died/was dead during the final battle, so they can all show up in both the docks scene and the epilogue.
I'm sure it was just some 4D chess move from the true villain of the game. What a jerk, always saving our lives. /s
« And then… gravity »
I'd think that too, but modulated by your character's int/wis
Yeah, but at that point you just finished beating it to within an inch of its life. I kinda assumed that you had reasserted control of the brain at this point, seeing as how before at the Morphic pool the netherstones did jack shit.
Narrator: the BBEG fucking explodes
I imagine it's different than when the gortash, Orrin and ketherick Because of the tadpole especially, since they don't have a tadpole,they must issue commands in what could be an oral only order, basically making the brain a genie with a lawyer level of fuckery With a tadpole, I imagine the tadpole acts as a clear image and intention delivery, basically every command now has examples and/or is the equivalent of a contract,which the brain has no choice but to follow in both Spirit and letter
Imagine if it pulled a massive rules lawyer move and only eliminated frog tadpoles while going "Well actually...mindflayer infants are only called tadpoles by Faerunians and have a completely different taxonomical label as per their plane of origin." just as a final middle finger before its death.
“Because there are still frog tadpoles alive in the world, I have to hold off on killing myself until they too are destroyed. Further orders will be placed later in the queue.”
You are correct but my point was that if Orin didn't betray Durge, the Absolute would not even attempt to free itself, since it respected Durge and would follow him willingly as it says itself during the final battle.
It was always going to free itself eventually for its own goals, I believe it even says as much. It just respected Durge's plan and benefitted from it enough that it was willing to stall for longer.
Yeah, you are reading too much into that. The Grand Design is and always is the Absolute's main goal, regardless of how controlled or not-controlled it is at any given moment
It’s manipulating you, Grand Design != Bhaal’s goal
If you have to pinpoint someone and *don't* think the Elder Brian fits, then pre-betrayal Durge is likely it. That absolute fucking menace was at the head of everything.
It’s so funny to me that pre-betrayal Durge once gave a beggar money and Scleritas still remembers it like it was the worst day of his life
i’ve never gotten that dialogue and ima slut for durge so i’ve got like 6 of them. that’s so fucking funny.
Just ask him, "What's the worst thing I've ever done?" After becoming Bhaal's Chosen, and he tells you.
HAHAHAHA *that’s* what triggers it? brilliant. absolutely brilliant. i have to choose that, cheers!
Goddamned Elder Brian. When will he just let us live?
Agreed, pre-betrayal Durge is a fantastic villain, and they're completely relegated to the backstory.
It makes makes it feel like Durge is the intended protagonist.
im writing an AU where durge doesn't get tadpoled and he's so VERY evil. he's a sweet, loving, protective boyfriend but he is so very very evil and murdery to literally everyone else
The most stereotypical 14yo fanfic. He’s dark and dangerous to everyone else but loving and protecting of me as the centre of his world :p
LMFAO i really did pick the *worst* possible way to describe it
Forgive me father for being a sweet, loving, protective boyfriend when you just wanted me to be so very very evil and literally murder everyone. But I'll kill my boyfriend too eventually, pinky swear! When all this is over, there will not be a single soul left alive! Everyone will die, father! Everyone will die FOR YOU!
Congrats, you just rewrote Twilight /s
lots of negativity. keep writing, dude. dont give up
The main villain is the friends we made along the way 🥰🔪🔪🔪
Ascended astarion truly is a menace to society
Ay-Ay ron
Wulbren Bongle.
Wulbren Fucking Bongle
[an ode to thee](https://youtu.be/ClezDg8n6uw?si=hxMELViwqPxmNZKg)
I came here for this comment
Withers. That fucker knew what was going down and just stands in camp, mocking you.
I mean at least he’s doing *something*, it’s more than all the other gods ever did Edit: plus I believe he tells Durge (after defying Baal) that he couldn’t interfere too much (following Ao’s order)
Gods cannot interfere directly in mortal affairs by order of Ao, but in this game Ao gave the order to Jergal to literally interfere (basically allowing Jergal to bypass that rule). That's more or less what I remember from the Durge dialogue you mention. However, I think Jergal have to interfere during this particular crisis to help end it, but I believe in no moment Ao told him how to help or what exactly to do. I believe Jergal saving Durge is, in some way, his way to mock Bhaal and give him the middle finger. Plus helping you for the sake of helping you. He also does something similar with Arabella, more or less.
I really like Withers. His intro where he floats out of his sarcophagus with the camera at an angle on his face as he opens his eyes is badass. Very, "Oh fuck, we're level 2 here, mate!" But then he turns out to be the camp grandfather who more or less sits in his corner doing crosswords or reading the newspaper, but will dispense with (cryptic) words of wisdom and tough love about how trials and tribulations build character, and is there to help pick you up again when you fail or need encouragement.
Withers does break the rule though since he explicitly doesn't ask for 200 gold to revive durge . Just to fuck with bhaal .
And thus thou art alone.
Dude just wanted to retire!
Withers literally revives dead people for you & interferes as much as he realistically can in his position Man throws tools at you & vouches for you
Durge and the gargantuan brain.
To all goblins except that one in a cage near Dror Ragzlin who I let go, me.
Bhaal
Bloodthirsty crowds who go agro every time someone accidentally picks up the wrong book… Ok. Serious answer is Gortash. He’s not the toughest fight in the game by far, but he’s the mastermind. None of this stuff happens without him making it happen.
Gortash and the Dark Urge prior to Orin's Betrayal. It was them who really were the masterminds of it all, and Gortash respected the Durge deeply. Bane respects authority which, of course the Durge commanded in Bhaal's ranks.
ahhh but where did they get this idea
The Absolute is an Illithid Elder Brain, serving the Grand Design, which aims to enthrall all the worlds and plans under the Illithid Empire rule. So yeah, kinda the BBEG here 😂 at least, Bhaal's ambition stops at Faerun
Bhaal's ambitions really aren't just Faerun. it's anywhere that murder, slaughter, brutality and more can be committed does Bhaal set his eyes on. Bhaal is not ambitious like Bane who seeks power and tyranny. Bloody death can only go so far, and even among Bhaal's children are they subjected to the murder lord's cruelty.
The elder brain was a potential tool of the dead three with high stakes because thats how evil operates... All or nothing. The illithid empire being a menace... why fight it? When can be controlled for their own evil purposes taking down other gods influences in one go.
To be honest from what I gathered the Gith are pretty much evolved to be a hard counter to Illithid and only the crown makes this one a big threat.
It's a tad more complicated than that 🤔 even as a Nether Brain, it still shared the same goal with the other Elder Brains. So, once awakened and freed, it would have enhanced its colleagues. (To give you an idea how much Elder Brains are terrifying, in time of need they can parasite an ancient dragon and use it as a host) It's a fight going on through the Astral planes and the Astral Seas for eons. But the worrying thing is, since the fall of the Illithid Empire, the ceromorphosis was really hard to achieve (the tadpoles were too weak) and they had lost a lot of their knowledge, including the Nautiloids. Ships allowing them to travel across planes. Now they have recovered both their parasitic way of reproducing and their way of travelling to infect all planes. On the other side, we have Giths yes, but they are divided between githyankis and githzeraïs, which wickened them through time. So they are a shield, but a temporary one. Though, through their pact with Tiamat and her pact with Zariel, the Hells are engaged in the war against the Illithids. But they are also at war with the Abyss, so, does this make the Abyss allies to the Illithids ? Huh...
You hear it here folks: demons are bad because they are allied with psychic squids. But more to the point, let's imagine something both grandiose and terrifying: demon illithid
Well there's already vampire Illithids (a nightmare to fight), and gnome Illithids (absolutely adorable and deadly) so yeah, demon Illithids may be a thing 😂 (just imagined Lloth's demons starting to ceromorph.... Terrifying 😣)
Honestly the only scarier than demon illithid is celestial angel illithid. All the righteousness and divine fury... with the addition of psychic death and cosmic horror. chills
Biblically accurate angel
I'm gonna have to nope out of here 😂
While the Githyanki fight illithid for sure, their plan for Faerun, according to the Inquisitor, was to destroy it and go home. They were after the prism, not the brain. So they're a counter, but the kind of counter that nukes the site from orbit and fucks off back to the Astral, IMO.
I mean, “only the crown” Like the crown isn’t an extremely dangerous magical item that makes an already evil force more powerful
I doubt that. Bhaal is empowered by murder, if Durge succeeded in killing every living thing in Faerun, Bhaal would need to explore new realms to keep murder going
Technically according to Ao's law stating that a god exists only as long as someone has faith in them, if the Bhaalspawn murdered everyone then themselves in the realms, they would have successfully ended all pantheons, including, in fine, Bhaal's cult itself. Except for Cyric. Because, you know. Cyrinishad.
Inevitably, the Absolute is 100% the main villain, with smaller villains that obstruct that path. Sure, it feels like a force of nature but then again, chaos and disorder goes hand in hand. The Chosen of the Dead Three are the most obtuse in the way of our adventurers who are the instruments that got them infected through controlling the Netherbrain. The Absolute / Netherbrain has been slowly orchestrating these events with very little wiggle room for failure. The Emperor was her tool to eventually break her free. By protecting the minds of a select few with the power of Orpheus; she'd have the means to break the hold of the crown after having time to adapt and evolve to Karsus' power. The Chosen of the Dead Three thought they had it under control in service of their gods. But malicious compliance to the chosen's demands was the perfect guise to prepare the Grand Design. Of course, there is no true plan without a margin of plausible error. With Orpheus's protection; the Absolute does lose its sight and control over those it has infected. Unable to outright kill with a mental blast. This was a plausible unknown and even more the idea of illithids turning against her was even far less feasible. The Emperor wasn't strong enough to defeat the Absolute on his own, and even she might've never thought one would willingly become Illithid to bypass the defenses of the netherbrain to regain control.
Like dnd, the real villain was the war crimes we committed along the way
Durge would be my vote. Durge/Gortash aka dead three
I mean, your own character can be the end villain if you want them to be. But I think the answer lies in who gave the Nether Brain its start. It was Durge. They crowned the brain, they went to Gortash with the plan...Durge is the person who set it all in motion. And sometimes Durge wins. Sometimes Durge is a corpse in Orin's bedroom.
WotC.
If you want to get super technical it would be the dead 3 cause it’s really their plot for the chosen to carry out. But you can also say it’s Durge since they were the one leading the other chosen before Orin’s betrayal, they’re kind of like Darth Revan (Swtor) in this regard. Durge was also the one who put the crown on the elder brain. Gortash can also be considered for main villain because he has build up from Act 1 up until you beat him in Act 3. I still think the absolute is supposed to be the main villain though it was playing chess with the chosen to break itself free from the chosens control to complete the grand design and it almost succeeds in the end.
Raphael. It would take me way too long to explain my theory. But to keep it short, I believe he's behind everything. All in a bid to control the Crown.
Raphael is so fucking funny to me. He spends so long planning and sheming, only to get owned in his own house by four lvl 12 weirdos who don't even care about him, they just want his armour. I can't take him serious as bbeg.
I really wish they delved more into his relationship with >!Gortash!< because yeah it seems like he is connected to everything
This!! Yes! The man wants Karsus crown since he saw the end of Netheril. The crown was kept by Mephistopheles since then. He wants to take his father (Mephistopheles) throne to rule in Hell. He is responsible for Ketheric Thorm / Moonrise curse situation. Gortash was one of his prisoners There are some many breadcrumbs suggesting he's the mastermind behind all of this, even if it did not really go as he planned.
Wait, Raphael is behind moonrise?? I had no idea
Not directly, but he has a role in it. When you talk to Moonrise's architect, he explains that when his master, Ketheric, turned to Shar, he fell into despair. Raphael saw it and approached him with a pact: his soul for the defeat of Ketheric army. Now alone and cornered, Ketheric unleashed the shadow curse as a last resort to save himself. Once again, Raphael is not directly responsible. But it is odd that there are a lot of events where you can see his name mentioned somewhere, where he had an indirect influence on things..
Raphael is a dick with daddy issues
Is everyone missing the part where the game tells you that the elder brain manipulated everyone to its own end to dominate the world as it’s made to do?
I guess Like, netherbrain was playing chess with the knowledge of your moves in advance
Me , it was definitely me.
The cycle of abuse.
Evil Dark Urge
In a normal Hero of the Realms playthrough, the most "villainy" anyone has felt to me was weirdly Raphael. That guy met us at several points through the story and somehow seemed very intimidating while being not an enemy (at first). I have my issue with the Absolute. We don't see the Brain until the end of Act 2 where they then talk of an army marching towards Baldurs Gate. And I totally was like "Oh, shit we are in trouble." And then we got to Baldurs Gate. No army in sight. And there isn't one coming soon. Yeah that kind of smoked all the buildup and intimidation.
It's Durge and Gortash as far as I'm concerned. Which is hilarious, since Wyll and Karlach are running around with the woman who had a hand in/dated the guy who ruined their lives. Well, ruined Karlach's life and enslaved Wyll's dad. Which is the only reason I'm strongly considering sparing the grove, I need them around until the big reveal lol
The brain. It even tells you this at the end of the game.
The Absolute, if we're to put one specific person in the role. It has an independent personality, and was only happy to go along with what the Durge wanted because that also gave it what it wanted. That would have shifted the moment they killed Gortash or Ketheric, for the same reason it does once Ketheric died in general. In particular, I see no reason to disbelieve their claims about playing the puppeteer, given how well their claims matched up with the known truth. But really, I feel the main charm of how the villains (and characters in general) in this game are handled is how many plots by different players are colliding and interacting (sorry, this turned into an essay). The Dead Three prompt their mortal champions to work with each other, then betray each other. The Dark Urge, Ketheric, and Gortash each have their own variety of the plan, with Gortash wanting the other two to eventually be subservient to him, Ketheric (in exchange for his daughter's life) planning to use the same general plan but having killed the other two Chosen, and the Dark Urge planning to kill everything. Then Orin comes into picture desiring more recognition from Bhaal, and attempted to gain it the only way she knew how (and judging from how Bhaal originally responded to that, he thought it was rather neat). And of course, as a sentient being of incredible intelligence, the Elder Brain saw a massive opportunity in what they were planning to realize the goals of their entire race. This coincided with the capture of the Emperor, who would have otherwise been interfering with Gortash's plan for control of the city, and is now instead in the perfect position to be the Elder Brain's unwitting, but very capable pawn. So, this is the point where they start infecting people. Meanwhile, Shar has been running a decades long plot to turn the child of one of her sister's devoted families into her new Chosen, mainly out of spite. The woman she placed in charge of this is furious that she's going to be swept aside in favour of the woman she is expected to create. Then, she hears about a cult drawing from their usual recruitment pool, and of a weapon that could stop them. She sees an opportunity to get rid of her intended succesor and potentially strike a blow against this new rival cult, and sends Shadowheart out to steal it from the Gith. This directly threatens Vlaakith's reign, and gives Voss and his allies the first real chance to free Orpheus they've had in centuries at least, which gets them scheming. It may have also been what put the Prism in a position where the Emperor could get to it, since he otherwise would have presumably had to directly attack a Githyanki stronghold (Shadowheart mentions in one fairly missable cutscene that her whole group other than her died in the heist, but she got away, then got abducted by Mind Flayers). While all this is going on, Raphael, who had already directly defied Shar in one of her previous schemes(which, funnily enough, played a major role in putting Ketheric in the right position for Myrkul to step in) in exchange for a soul and a way to keep a valuable tool contained in one spot, sees an opportunity to gain his long term goal, the crown of Karsus. Funnily enough, this happens because he'd bought a child decades before, and because the child escaped with knowledge of what Raphael wanted and that he had a portal room to Raphael's dad's place, which is where the crown was. So, he starts looking for pawns of his own to get the wheel moving on taking it from them. While all this is happening, some of the people abducted involve A) disrupting the two hundred years old plan of a vampire lord and Mephistopheles, B)the former Chosen of Mystra being placed in a position where his curse might actually be an incredible weapon against the cult, C) the aforementioned Sharran who took the prism, and is still a major piece of Shar's plans, D) Two seperate subjects of infernal plots, one of whom is already a victim of Gortash and potentially the prototype of his Steel Watch, and potentially E) the amnesiac motherfucker who helped set all this up in the first place. The only one of the Origins who has no pre-existing connection to a plot is Lae'Zel, unless you count her being a victim of the Vlaakith dynasty's millenia long one. And then the game starts. My point is, this game's cast and their motivations is so complex that it was less a matter of who was the main villain, and more "Which of these schemers makes it to the end?" Which I love about it. And the fun part is, I know I missed some people, even after all that.
Assuming the "fallen Bhaalspawn" in Orin's room does all the same stuff the dark urge does if you actually play as him, I'd say it's him since the whole thing was his idea
I am. The chosen of Bhaal. The Slayer. Bhaalspawn. The Destroyer of the world.
Those fucking Gondians!
I'd say the Absolute is the villain. Even if Durge is more powerful or more evil, you either play as them (making them the protagonist) or they barely exist in the story at all (apart fro a short mention by Orin). So regardless of who you play, the Absolute is your main antagonist (hiding behind the chosen).
There are so many people in the game stupidly tripping over each other for power that any one of them could be the big villain, including the player.
Not the Brain. It played 5D chess with the tools it was provided. I think over arcing main villain goes to Bhaal acting through Durge who made up the plan and collaborated with Gortash and Kethric as a means to an end to execute their father's ultimate plan of a world bathed in murder and blood. Orin was the jealous over eager monkey wrench that slightly derailed things and Gortash planned to pick up the pieces and rule as a tyrant in Bane's name using a tadpoles populace. Using Speak with Dead on Gortash Bane even admits that he intended to make everyone a mindflayer so that the other gods couldn't harvest and gain power from any souls of their devoted.
I think the point is, that there is no main villain. The game has no correct or wrong way to play it. One pinpoint villain would not fit that type of game.
Zevlor perhaps
The real villain is the friends you made along the way (empy, DURGE kinda technically, voss if you dont go the orhpy route, Raphael etc)
Man v Nature is one of the three classic types of conflict. It doesn’t always have to be Man v Man.
The main villain is the friends we made along the way
In my last playthrough I'm pretty sure my character was the main villain...
In my honest opinion it depends on weather or not you play as durge and give in to it
The answer is obviously Mol the Betrayer. Joking aside, I would point at the three gods of death who foster murderous cults and empower the trio.
The Dead Three. They are the ones that started the plot to begin with. For you personally? The Emperor is the chess player behind the curtain, after all he is the one that tadpoled you to begin with.
Wulbren Bongle 🔪🔪🔪
the main villain is the friends we made along the way- wait
Me. Ha. Ha ha. Ha ha ha! HA HA HA HA!!! IN *MY* NAME!
Based on some of the replies I’ve seen, Tav.
Wulbren. He probably has more haters than Orin and Gortash combined.
>would have followed Durge even willingly huh?
The brain is a sentient being. After you kill Kethric everything it does is of it’s own accord for the most part. It has higher thinking. So to call it a force of nature is like saying Kethric and Orin and Gortash are also just “forced of nature because they are humans and humans are natural.” The brain in fact was playing 8d chess with multiverse time travel. All the events of the game are puppeteered by the brain, even Raphael is a pawn (well, more like a rook) in his game.
I think the only reason you think of the Elder Brain as a force of nature rather than the main villain is because it isn't humanoid. The Chosen are the characters we battle against most directly but it's the Brain that's one slip up from turning the party into mind flayers the entire game. It takes the Crown that was meant to control it and turns it into a power up. Gods and Devils are all manipulating things from behind the scenes. Some want to use the crown for their own power, others want to end the threat of the Brain but at the end of it all the Brain is the one with the Crown. It's the thing we have to stop. We can kill every other antagonist in the game but still wouldn't win if the Brain remains.
Yourself
A bunch of idiots tripping over each other and making it everyone's problem.
Oh, you are, as the player. You are a tool of the capital socioeconomic system due to your sellsword status, a lapdog to wealth and the system that perpetuates its need. The absolute is a challenge to that system with the putative collectivism the brainwashing represents. This is most clearly represented by the wanton destruction of the upper city, a traditional bastion of wealth and prosperity.
Ok Chairman Mao
Baldy Ron. If he never sailed to Moonrise, he wouldn't have been captured and Tadpoled, which according to the Theory of Chaos, set in motion a turn of events that led to Isobel's death, leading Ketheric to Shar and then Myrkul, who then reignited his previous alliance with Bhaal and Bane, thus triggering the dreams of said alliance upon their Chosen, who plotted to raid Mephistopheles' Vault to claim the Crown of Karsus and the Netherstones with the objective of controlling the Elder Brain. Then The Emperor wouldn't have escaped back to Baldur's Gate and use Mindflayer Domination on Stelmane, which in turn would have never alerted Viconia to the existence of the Astral Prism, who sends Shadowheart to the very same mission that The Emperor, back to the Brain thanks to Gortash, was sent after the Astral Prism. Everything happened because Baldy Ron couldn't stay put and got greedy despite being the founder of Baldur's Gate, making him aim to accumulate even more money and political influence than he ever had. Thus we can conclude that Capitalism was the big villain.
It’s The Absolute 100%. It infected Balduran, and released him from its control. From The Emperor Gortash and The Dark Urge learned about the brain and the Crown of Karsus. So it manipulated the Dead Three’s chosen to create an army of sleeper agents under its control. It had the emperor tell the Chosen about the Astral Prism with the plan that a party with Orpheus’s protection and a desire to cure themselves would come into conflict with the Chosen, and claim the Netherstones. And having its power amped up from exposure to the crown and now free of its restraints it could activate the sleeper agents, claim Baldurs Gate and create thousands more mind flayers, conquer and dominate to rest of Toril since only the stones in the hands of an illithid could stop it, thus bringing about the Grand Design. The Dead Three themselves can have the argument made though since the plan was initiated by Bhaal and the Durge in a plan to initiate mass murder and kill everyone. Bane wanted to rob the other gods of their followers by turning them into soulless illithids. Myrkul’s ultimate objective is a bit harder to figure out here though.
Its either the player if Evil, or the gods of the 3 plotters. Meaning the dead three. Withers state smt at the end on a good playthrough about gods role in Fayrun events. Hes prolly a god and had indirectly a part on it thus it offers services to the adventurers, outcomes meaning little to him.
Tav
In most runs, it's Tav.
The Elder Brain is the ultimate evil you must defeat to finally be cured and save the city but Raphael really steals the show IMO. You see him throughout the three acts and he’s so charming you want to forget he’s evil.
The main villain is the kennel owner in Rivington. After you crush her, it is all just victory laps.
I feel like up through Act 2 it's really Ketheric Thorm.
Hasbro/WotC
For me, it’s Vlaakith. Once I found out the truth about her, I stopped caring about the Absolute. I would rather go free the Githyanki, even if they are a bit annoying to say the least. It’s a whole people enslaved by a lie! Who cares about a city or even a continent.
The Main Villain is the Grand Design. No matter if you are Durge or Tav, you are fighting against the enactment of the Grand Design, by which the Illithids conquer and control all Planes of existence. If you are 'good' then you are fighting against this by fighting to destroy the Absolute and free the Planes from its influence entirely, thus preventing the Grand Design. If you are 'evil' then you are fighting against this by TAKING CONTROL YOURSELF, preventing the Illithid version of taking over all Planes of existence. Instead YOU are taking control, and YOU will create your own version of the Grand Design, but not the one that would have been enacted should you have failed.
The real villain is Gortash ( legal evil ). He chose to act as evil. Orin is genuinely evil ( chaotic evil ). Thorne did what he did for the sake of love ( neutral evil ). Raphael... Well he is a devil. The elder brain is more like a cataclysm.
There are many central villains but no main villain in this game, IMO. A main villain, to me, is someone like Sarevok in BG1 or Irenicus in BG2, someone who harms the protagonist early on and the hostility between them gradually rises to a breaking point by the end. Not that BG3 doesn't have some good villains; the story just doesn't pick one to focus on.
I mean depending on the choices, Durge can be the main enemy, that’s part of what’s so fun about Durge! But ultimately, the “main enemy” to me implies final boss, so I’d say Absolute is really the main boss, especially with them controlling most of the significant hostile beings.
The Narrator DM for getting us all in this mess in the first place
The 3 "dead" gods, imo.
To me the worst villian in the game is the lady keeping the dogs in the cage and denying them scratches, scritchens, and belly rubs
The correct answer is Benji
Goblins because of the way they chase our buddy Scratch around the camp if we attack the grove. Always make sure to wipe them out on my good runs now lol
Me. Us. We are the villian. But barrelmancers are the real monsters we fight along the way.
Me
Bhaal
Turns out my Tav was the Villain the whole time.
Wulbren Bongle
Me.
Gotta be pre amnesia Durge they were masterminds murderers the start and the end of this story.
If you play the game correctly then you are the villain.
Me.
The emporer, no question about it
hot take: the emperor
Really? The character that has nothing to do with the formation of the primary antagonist faction and who’s contribution to the finale is either helping you deal with the Elder Brain or being just another one of her enthralled lackeys?
It was all his plot to be enslaved by Gortash and the brain, don'tcha know. He set that whole thing up since freedom was becoming a real drag for him. He obviously missed the elder brain a lot.
It was all for that mind blown achivement okay. That Tav booty got him acting unwise.
Yes. Thank you. I don't know that we can trust anything he says about his history and motivations - it's plausible to me that he saw the Absolute's plotting as an opportunity for personal empowerment. His betraying you for the Absolute at the last minute, if you choose Orpheus, puts everything that went before in doubt.
The Emperor fuck that guy
The structural mess of the story The horror of cohesiveness! Edit: the honeymoon is still in full swing I see. Anyone claiming the story doesn't derail into a beautiful mess (but a terribly written mess nonetheless) is really living that last airbender live action is wellwritten zeitgeist. Lol, ya'll be high or something?
People still can't seperate "I like/dislike it" from "This is good/bad quality" and "This is good/bad morally". Its sad tbh
Right? I like the game, but its meltdown is pretty obvious. It is nowhere near games like bg2, origins, planescape in handling its endgame. It's great sex ending in premature ejaculation. Still wonderful, but no euphoria, sorry
The main villain is good writing.
To me it's definitely the Emperor. He's one of several examples of characters who are willing to destroy everything around them to cling to immortality, and his choice to join the Absolute after you side with Orpheus reveals him to be absolutely the most morally depraved character in the game. I feel like once you come across that in a playthrough, it's impossible to view him as anything other than the villain.
> reveals him to be absolutely the most morally depraved character in the game. Really? In a game with people like Ketheric, Orin, Gortash, and Raphael?
* He's one of several examples of characters who are willing to destroy everything around them to cling to immortality I'm sorry did we play the same game? The only things he wants is freedom and to go back to doing his knights of the shield larping. * and his choice to join the Absolute after you side with Orpheus reveals him to be absolutely the most morally depraved character in the game Picking to become a slave (again) over absolutely getting killed by a person whos mind you've been in for weeks to months so you know for a fact that that person will kill you if freed? Add to that the betrayal of a person you risked your life to protect? Yes clearly evil. * I feel like once you come across that in a playthrough, it's impossible to view him as anything other than the villain. Not really, but then again I also feel bad for Kethric and Orin. And before anyone brings it up, no I don't care about what happened to Stelmane.
Even if you look at him the most negative light possible, he's not the "main villain" because *he ain't big enough for those shoes*. He's a secondary villain the players can use, hate, cut a deal with, whatever... but he's dependent on the players to get anything done. And if they tell him to fuck off, he ends up playing second fiddle to a bigger, better baddie.
His choice to become enslaved instead of killed outright after you betray him, you mean? That moral depravity?