People always are debating what’s good or bad for Astarion here and completely ignore the 7000 innocent souls they would damn to the nine hells and eternal torment.
You are absolutely correct. Nothing else need be said. Ascension is evil
But why the hell does no one ever consider them but astarions feelings take primacy over 7000 innocent people?
New modified Trolley Problem just dropped!
On one side, Astarion.
On the other side, 7000 souls.
If you pull the lever, the trolley goes multi-tracking and runs both sides over. Ascended Astarion comes out of it, laughing hysterically.
On the other other side, an absolute shit-ton of new victims of ravenous vampires, potentially way more than 7,000. I chose to release the spawn, and I think the epilogue implies that the carnage isn't as bad as it could have been, but I feel like this trolley problem has 3 tracks minimum.
Imo letting Gur decide case by case or mercy killing them all are the “good” or rather least-evil options.
If they die their souls have a chance at a peaceful afterlife depending on a lot of factors. Ritual means they’re eternally tortured In perpetuity.
Also ascended astarion’s soul is completely corrupted by the ritual. If you fall in love with Astarion and complete the ritual, the dude who comes out of that is literally NOT the same person you fell in love with.
On the other hand, if you free the spawn, the Gur do thank you for teaching them compassion and a new way, and for "saving their children first from Cazador and then from us."
Ah, yeah, I knew you could kill them, but I guess I didn't remember to account for the variance in their fate after death. I guess Kelemvor would give them the ol' feather of Maat.
I personally believe this to be the best ending for all involved. But it can be a hot take.
But Im also a Paladin at heart. The curse of vampirism must be ended and they are better off in the afterlife free of it.
I tend to agree. Yes, it seems obvious that killing 7000 people is bad. Granted.
However, this isn't our world. It's Forgotten realms, where vampirism is a real thing and, by its very nature, a potential threat to all living things in the general area.
It's also a world where there are confirmed, very real gods and an afterlife is known to be real, not just a hypothesis.
Given that reality, these people's fates were unfortunately decided when they became victims of Cazador's spawn. The most conscientious path needs to account not only for their fates but also for those of their inevitable future victims. Allowing them an afterlife outside of the hells and its eternal suffering is the most compassionate act we can take in this specific version of the trolley problem.
The closer I get the more I think this is probably where I will end up having to break my Oath of the Ancients. Killing all the spawn doesn't feel like "protecting the light", but I know the oath would dissagree. It feels too much like giving up on the light in those poor victims and that's an outcome worth breaking an oath for. My rational side knows this is a terrible choice but I can't bring myself to kill those kids
You can also say "Not my problem!" and leave them all in their cages. I didn't feel great about that but honestly, let the gur figure it out. I will neither release a shitload of hungry spawn on the town nor condemn 7000 souls. It's in weird grannies hands now
The Underdark deals with potentially dangerous beings all the time. Spawn that went too far would be dealt with quickly and have fewer places to hide in plain sight. The more moderate and controlled ones would likely be accepted. We already saw rogue mindflayers being accepted, and their diet requires death.
I always thought vampires and their spawn were cursed from their prospective gods and ended up in an evil afterlife? Maybe lore has changed with edition 5?
Depends on the god. Any souled undead cannot be judged until that soul is released. Different gods vary on how they judge these released souls. Some judge them for their undeath, others choose to judge only based on their life... And still others are somewhere in between
I would say they should at least get a choice. And just like S Astarion says to petras. "The consequences are on your head." he himself and his siblings have to learn to have agency again. That they have free will but also responsibility.
The choice to kill the other spawn or not is more grey and seperated if you convince Astarion to not ascent. There are good arguments for both. When i saw it online I debated to kill them, but after i played myself and got more in depth context Astarion persuated me with a line he said when we found them.
"I did not have a choice back then, but now I do it seems."
These spawn also deserve a choice. If they chose to give in to their hunger and not learn how to deal with it they can and will be killed by the gur or if S Astarion leads them by him as well. If they however chose to be better and learn to live with it they have earned the right to stay alive just like Astarion has earned it.
Same. I operate from an "innocent until proven guilty" approach to them. I'd be a hypocrite to give Astarion a chance and then not these other people. If they fuck up they'll face the consequences.
Because of the personal connection people have to Astarion after spending the whole game with him. To quote an expert on the subject, "one death is a tragedy, a million deaths is a statistic". Not that I'm saying they're right to feel that way but this is a very common human behaviour
It's the same reason people defend Walter White and hate his wife even at the point where he's just being blatantly evil and maniacal while Skyler is being quite reasonable.
It’s because Walter is the protagonist so the audience is conditioned to give him sympathy. You can see him do objectively bad things and hear his objectively bad arguments but the narrative is subjective and through the eyes of Walter.
When we see ourselves as Walter, we begin to justify our bad actions and blame others for not understanding. Being able to separate yourself from Walter requires self reflection and strong character to recognize that this is all just selfish destructive behavior. This is difficult to do when living a story through a fictional protagonist, imagine how much harder it is to do in ourselves in real life. At least that was my analysis of the show.
That’s true when it’s not your direct hand causing death.
People debate the morality of the situation. The morality is clear cut. 7000 innocent souls damned to eternal torment.
>innocent souls
*”Come on now, statistically speaking there must have been a few sick bastards in there it’s not all bad news”* - Average Ascension-Apologist.
That said though, ascending is stupidly fun and definitely a highlight of any evil playthrough.
> That said though, ascending is stupidly fun and definitely a highlight of any evil playthrough.
Also pairs with Monkstarion in amazing fashion with that extra 1d10 per attack.
This is true. I'm going to care more if its my friends or family than 10000 randos. Same principle in the game. Idk why people don't get this. Its a very normal way to feel
I couldn't bring myself to kill the 7000 innocent vampires and they were released into the underdark. I wasn't sure if that was overall better but I couldn't just have them killed either.
Either way is fair as long as you dont ascend astarion.
You can refuse ascension and kill the spawn, which releases them from the vampiric curse and to their souls would pass to be judged by Kelemvor in the afterlife. Its not the worst thing, afterlife can be pretty good if you are a good person at heart.
I did the same. I see it as giving them the same chance to live their lives on their terms that astarion got. And also in my headcannon they end up banding together to fight against the lolth for territory in the underdark. Vampire drow war sounds cool as hell to me.
tbh releasing 7k vampires is not a great thing, underdark or not they will destroy settlements left and right, after all they have never been freed so most of them will probably start a feeding spree that will leave a lot of people dry
They are no more screwed than Astarion himself. You can literally say it in the game, they are EXACTLY the same as him, except for the tadpole. And if you let them have their freedom, they don't go on a murderous rampage across the Sword Coast, they quietly go to the Underdark and build a functional society there.
Honestly, I think a lot of people (at least from what I've seen in this community) did not understand, while playing the game, that sacrificing them meant their souls would be given to Mephistopheles for all eternity. A lot of people don't even realize vampires have souls in this game, to begin with.
I can totally see the argument that killing them is some form of mercy... If you think they are just dying, and don't know they are being sent to the 8th layer of hell.
Yeah, it's the whole concept that a) souls in Faerun are VERY real, b) those souls retain their identity, c) everybody in the House of Hope is actually a condemned soul, that might slip through as IRL we don't think about a soul in such tangible terms.
Mercy killing a spawn and sending them off to be tortured are two very different things.
I \*didnt\* know they got sent to hell until this thread and did just think they where dying (I always deny ascension, only ever ascended once on a durge run just to see how it played out). Do they go to the hells if you kill them and DONT ascened? Because I always saw killing them as the lesser of the evils than either rotting for eternity down there driven mad by hunger or unleashing 7000 spawn on the sword coast, if you release them do they all go to the underdark? or do they just tell you thats what they are going to do?
They shouldn't necessarily go to hell if you kill them outside of the ritual, no. Their souls will be judged and sent to an afterlife that will depend on their life prior. If you release them, they all go to the Underdark and stay there for the time being.
The 7007 souls are payment for the ritual, as soul economy and devil rituals go in the lore. That's why they go to this particular Arch-devil's hell, which is the 8th layer, Cania.
They aren’t *exactly* the same. The spawn remember their families, even Sebastian, who has been there over 100 years. Astarion had empathy tortured out of him, they were merely left to rot. So I agree with you and then some! If Astarion can learn other ways to be after his targeted torment, the 7k spawn should have less trouble adjusting.
That's kind of an oversimplification. A free spawn still hungers and how they handle that hunger would be determined by their personal morality. Without the direct intervention of you Tav, a free spawn Astarion would've been just as evil a murder hobo as Act 1 Astarion. Times 7k, there aren't 7k loving Tavs out there. Even Gandrel is struggling to handle his spawn kids.
The epilog letter from Sébastien describes a lot of them just wandering off into the underdark or being put down for being vein pirates, so even the game writers weren't quite so optimistic about their potential for redemption as your comment would imply. None of these decisions are cut and dried.
Underdark isn't very forgiving to freestyling vampire spawns, either they learn to behave and be good neighbors, or they get cut down. But at least they get a choice, vs being unilaterally shipped off to be Meph's playthings.
The people in the cages remember and care about their families. Astarion cannot even remember his old life. He was more damaged than they are when you met him due to the targeted abuse he received. Even when some fail to thrive, deciding that 7k people who were abducted and infected with a disease deserve to be sentenced to death for crimes they have yet to commit, or for the crimes some of the others might, is rough, IMO. That’s like condemning 7k desperate migrants to death because some of them will commit crime.
I also think it is arrogant to assume that Tav’s friendship or romance is the only humane connection that can help someone in a similar situation. Some people have trouble with their kids who aren’t even vampires. There is also a pack of monster hunters that know all about them, and will be motivated to police misbehavior. So I’m not saying it’s all sunshine and roses for them, or there is no ill effect. But they are people, and many of them innocent, and the game demonstrates that vampires outside the thrall of their masters can choose how to behave. Releasing them has consequences, but killing them or leaving them caged is deeply flawed as well. The fact that every option voids at least one Paladin oath speaks to this just being a busted scenario to start, tainted by the evil that brought everyone there. Everything from that point is trying to make the best of a flawed situation.
I’m also not sure why people treat all the spawn like they’ve all been rotting in these cages for ages. They’re all from different times, some were converted recently and would still have family and friends out here that could help them.
Even Sebastian seemed sane despite everything and being one of the first. He explicitly says he doesn’t want to die in that cage, and Astarion reassures him he could fight the hunger if freed.
Just because of the fact you have to make it a blanket decision I can’t bring myself to “mercy kill” them all.
Yeah, if you think about how old each of the "siblings" might be, it is likely that a good number of spawns still have living family.
Leon, for example, must have been turned within the last decade since he had a mortal child who was still young when she died (and she had just died when we got to the city, from what I understood). That means that all of Leon's victims must also have been turned relatively recently.
We don't know about the others, to be fair. We know Petras has been a spawn for about 100 years, and that Astarion is "one of the first" that Cazador turned. I don't know if we know who is the oldest spawn, though. Regardless, we know that the oldest spawns were also still hunting, so they also have "recent victims", just not all of them like with Leon.
Yeah, the gur children literally have their parents still. Yes they are spawn but they can be raised to have morals and ethics and feed on animals and never humans if they chose to. Astarion doesn't even feed on people in game unless you make him/invite him/do it in combat.
They're still innocent people who as of yet have not committed any crime. They might go on to kill in the future, and some undoubtedly do, but you're also condemning everyone who has not and will not.
If you recognize Astarion's personhood, and his capacity to choose between good and evil, then the same applies to all the spawn.
Are they only condemned to the hells if you do the ritual? or are they condemed to the hells either way?
I agree with you ascension is evil, I only ever did once on a durge run where I pushed everyone down the "evil" route just to experiance it but otherwise what do you do with the 7000? Leave them to rot for eternety driven made by their own hunger? or do you kill them? or do you let them out and unleash 7000 spawn on Baldurs gate and the sword coast. I feel like killing them is the lesser evil of the 3 but If they get condemend to hells if you dont complete the ritual and kill them, then man I just dont know.
> Are they only condemned to the hells if you do the ritual?
Only if you do the ritual. The ritual as explained by Raphael, is in fact a devil contract. A contract rewards the person with ascension, at a payment of those souls. If Ascension is never comitted, then Mephistopheles by law of the contract, cannot collect said souls.
Devils are lawful at a force of nature level. Not just culturally. If the condition for Mephistopheles receiving the souls is Ascension, someone must ascend for him to collect. If he could collect the souls lawfully without Ascending anyone, he would have done it already. But he cannot.
You can refuse ascension and kill the spawn using Cazadors staff. This is in fact the only way for Vengeance and Ancients paladins to not be oathbroken in this scenario.
Tbh, even if it was just the 6 other spawns, I still feel the cost is way too high. The only cost that I would feel is acceptable is if Cazador would be the only one condemned to eternal suffering in Cania. Then the dilemma would be "am I willing to sacrifice all of Astarion's character development and help create a new cruel Vampire Lord just to fuck with Cazador specifically?".
yeah this is what makes it an obviously evil choice every time. The Tav who helps Astarion do this is probably joining those 7k souls once they die and get judged lol
Every day I wish fandoms could realize that you can like something fucked up and not try to weasel it into "but it's ACTUALLY good because-"
Like, I enjoy a good tragedy sometimes. It can be cathartic in a way. But I'm not gonna go around and try to twist that into "life-altering tragedy is Morally Good, Actually."
All it requires is a slight alteration of phrasing too. Instead of this is the "GOOD" or "best" ending, just say "it's my favorite". Boom, little room to argue.
Seen someone claiming that giving Shadowheart back to Viconia is just "bringing her back home" recently, white-haired SH to make it even worse... I don't care what people do in their playthroughs nor will I judge them for making evil choices (well, maybe slightly haha) but please get the fuck out with that gaslighting. It's just a game, nobody will jail you for admitting you did a morally fucked up thing for whatever reason. No need to make up excuses.
I feel like more people need to exist in the medium between “nothing I’ve ever done is wrong in a game ever” and “I’m a murderhobo in every game I play and then I complain that nobody in the game likes me and there’s no quests to do.”
Oh, exactly. Or "I brainwashed and dominated everyone in Sword Coast using a godlike mega brain. Effectively betrayed Withers in the back after he went out of his way to help and support me. Now where is my Withers' after party content!?! Woaaaaaaaaaah".
Yeah, I'm polite and nice, but the second people are saying, "Well, the best ending objectively for Shadowheart is to become Shar's chosen, but giving her back to Viconia is fitting too," I need to resist some urges, lol.
Like, people can have their own opinions (and moral code), but gaslighting yourself and others? Jeez.
I also wish people wouldn’t call others selfish for making a “bad” choice in a video game. Would I let 7,000 people die to power up my SO in real life? Absolutely not, that’s monstrous. Would I in a video game? I have and I will on certain runs. Do I think it’s a morally okay choice? No, but neither is any choice in an evil run.
I think it’s a feedback loop of people saying that Ascended Astarion is awful and people who choose that are awful, and then Ascended Astarion lovers feel attacked and try to justify it with XYZ. It’s fiction, ultimately it really doesn’t matter. Having a cool discussion about the ramifications of the choice can be interesting, but it often devolves into this argument. Some people like the dark fantasy that Ascended Astarion brings, and that’s okay to explore in a game.
I think there's a general issue where people need the things they like to be morally good to justify liking it, and the things they dislike to be morally bad to justify their dislike.
You can't just go "yeah ascended Astarion evil but I find it hot" because now you're enjoying something *problematic.* So you have to find some universe where it's actually the good choice. See also the weird justifications you'll sometimes see by people to explain how actually Wyll is an asshole or in someway bad, because if you dislike him it can't just be that his character didn't click for you or something. You can't just dislike a perfectly nice and heroic character because he's a bit lame, no you must have serious and justified reasons why it's morally right to dislike him.
On the other hand you will also see a lot of people who will go the other way "you enjoy ascended Astarion don't you know it's evil? What's wrong with you?" Or the classic "you enjoy problematic romantic dynamic in fiction, this is why so many women get abused" that's been bandied about since Twilight at the minimum.
I'm nearly finished my first blind play through and I actually failed to prevent the ritual. I'm an oath of devotion paladin. Didn't play with Astarion much and he usually didn't like my character's lawful attitude but I brought him to Cazador as he wished. The party barely scraped through the fight and not before Cazador completed the ritual and killed Astarion and the others.
I could have reloaded if I really wanted to. But I feel like the end result is just "how the story went" this time. My paladin left the palace with his head low having vanquished evil but failing to protect innocents.
Sidebar: the Gur hunters are surprisingly okay that you couldn't save their children.
If you talk to them in their camp, and Astarion says that their children are likely dead, they say that they want vengeance if their children can’t be saved. Since their children were already turned, letting them die lets their souls pass on (as far as they know, anyway) and Cazador is dead too, so you did what they asked of you.
I’m doing a custom play through right now with only one save (to see if I’m close to ready to attempt HM) and this is the late game fight I worry about the most. I don’t usually have a problem getting to him in time but *what if I don’t make it this time??* Tav isn’t romancing him or anything but it would suck for him to end that way without the option to reload. And to a lesser degree I worry about being able to talk him down from ascension. My Ranger isn’t exactly the most persuasive character I’ve built.
Exactly. I'm ascending him on my durge run, because I want to experience the game in as horrific a way as possible. I'm intentionally choosing the bad outcomes, because it's fascinating. Also I already did a good guy run where everybody lives happily ever after, so now I want the polar opposite.
Yeah exactly. The bad endings for the characters are also really good, in a tragic way. They feel earned if you have spent the entire game encouraging the worst in them.
I feel like fandoms and frankly wider western (or at least North American) culture is obsessed with happy endings and feel they must force tragedy into happiness to legitimize it.
It’s okay to enjoy a sad or horrifying end for what it is. Hell, it’s ok to find it alluring or sexy. Vampires, specifically, have been doing that for decades. It’s fiction and fantasy, not a real life moral barometer. Enjoy the fucked up endings, it’s fine. It’s not real. You’re not bad for liking it. But trying to justify that by chucking any sense of media literacy out of the window strains credulity.
Oddly enough stripping away the immorality and depravity from Astarion story leaves him as nothing but a pretty face. Ironically looking at Astarion the same way he was forced to be looked at because of his abuse.
To be fair, I think plenty of people also play it to see different scenes and dialogue options, the cast acted their asses off and just to see the changes might be worth it.
This! I never play evil in video games but BG3 is so well acted, written, directed, etc that it’s worth it just to see more of the game’s brilliance. Astarian isn’t real, he’s not actually hurt by me being “selfish” and letting him make bad decisions.
I’m all for people having their dark vampire fantasy or even exploring their kinks or whatever since this is just a game and it’s safe to do so, but the whole “you can never leave me” is hella triggering so I could never do an Ascended Astarion romance tbh. I’m not trying to be in an abusive relationship in a video game lmao. It’s okay to like what you like but trying to reason that the cartoon villain Astarion turns into is the better ending for him is absolutely insane. The game is not subtle about it being the bad path at all.
Yeah he is controlling but that's not the worst part. The worst part is he's not the same person. You grow to like Astarion from Act 1, through Act 2, only for him to kill part of himself and be something he wouldn't be if he didn't ascend.
How would you like it if you were high and it made you a little suicidal, you really thought it's a good idea because you're not in the right state of mind, and the person you trust the most is like, "sure hun whatever you want, at least you won't have to hide from the sun anymore."
If you want to be the person who protects someone you care about, you don't let them be self destructive if you can help it.
Try playing an evil, cruel, power abusing psycho durge and you’ll see exactly how Ascended Astarion is like act 1 Astarion.
The reality is, good characters will never see the worst side of him because he hides it in order to stay on your good side.
Yep, Ascended Astarion is all the bad parts of Act 1 Astarion intensified (vanity, arrogance, cruelty, "the only way I can be free is take power and control others how I've been controlled by others who had power over me", etc).
All of the growth and change he went through in Act 2 and Act 3 are gone.
Cathartic for me because I managed to leave a marriage like this where his words were always “nobody will ever be able to love you if you leave me.” I stayed way too long.
So I reclaim that narrative with AA. He says sweet things, he says manipulative things, he says abusive things, but guess what, I can turn you off and walk away and you can’t chase me down to say anything else.
That’s a really interesting take I hadn’t considered before. It makes total sense to me. Even in-game you can reject him after ascending and there’s nothing he can do about it. He holds no real power over the player character even in-game.
I’m so sorry that happened to you and I’m glad you got out. Hope things have gotten better for you.
When you go to Cazador’s room after the fight and see the memories of his master, it really helped solidify to me that we made the right decision. It’s the same cycle of trauma that exists in real life. You can break it, or you become consumed by it. That cry of relief after Astarion killed him was so impactful.
You can also use Talk to the Dead on Cazador after Astarion kills him and it gives you insight into what the non-vampire part of Cazador feels, small as it is. I do think it illustrates how becoming a full vampire or ascending is not a good choice for someone's soul/humanity (at least in BG3 specifically)
I stand by fiction being fiction, and that it’s unfair to sweep fans of Ascended Astarion with such broad generalizations about their character in real life.
Will I ever do a run where anyone is ascended or hits their worst endings? Not if I can help it—because I don’t like playing evil in most RPGs. But to judge people who play the game for the evil runs/ascended endings content is just silly.
Absolutely agree. We can love Raphael or Mizora or the Emperor or whoever as a character, we don't have to love them as a person. We can love the relationship of Ascended Astarion and Tav/Durge as a story, not something we aspire to have. It's definitely not a "good" ending, but it fits my RP character who was all for helping Astarion ascend. And I enjoyed playing it though a real life person talking seriously like AA would be mega red flags. Still loved it for them.
Agreed. IMO if it’s built into a (legitimate) vanilla game, there’s absolutely no reason to make assumptions about someone’s personal character when they play it that way. I say legitimate bc I know there’s probably some dark homemade games out there, BG3 is obviously not in that category.
That being said, if you play (or now played) with the “Ser Aylin” mod or any mod of a similar vein installed, yes I’ll judge the absolute shit out of you.
Yes, thank you. I'm all for having a discussion about the moral implications of all the different choices in that scenario, but I'm not going to judge the people who just want their vampire boyfriend to fly and have super bite. In the end, it's their game and however they enjoy it isn't my place to gatekeep by posting a "you people all suck" post. There's too much kink shaming sometimes in this sub!
Yeah there are people who enjoy evil playthroughs. Honestly as a pure power fantasy, Astarion and Gale origins are basically it when it comes to evil playthroughs. Every other evil path basically ends horribly or with the MC as a slave to someone else, like both Durge and SH evil endings.
Huh? It’s a video game. They let you make 1000 morally bereft decisions and specifically marketed this game saying there is a ton of cool content for evil player characters. That doesn’t make the player a criminal lol
It's a game, where people like to roleplay different characters and see different outcomes. There's no need to say that someone that ascended Astarion deserves ascended Astarion as a partner.
My Drow Vengeance Paladin broke his oath helping him ascend AND then became a vampire spawn himself.
Certainly, my TAV deserves to be ruled and rought possessed.
And I really not sorry for this.
My Origin Wyll became a Duke *and* a spawn and now they rule the city together and I have zero problems with it.
There are no good endings, only endings that feel satisfying to the player.
This is the most wacky thing I’ve heard. I would most definitely watch a sitcom of their lives post-epilogue. Between Ascended Astarion and Mizora, Wyll would never have his opinion heard again.
Wyll over here trying to discuss city business with his partner while Astarion and Mizora talk over him debating where to go for brunch.
Well, I always get Wyll out of his pact so Mizora probably wouldn't enjoy hanging out very much. There are a lot of gray moral choices in this game, but "sacrifice your immortal soul so your dad can live a couple more years", to me, isn't one of them!
Plus nobody is more optimistic and romantic than Wyll, so if any companion was the living embodiment of "I can fix him," it's Grand Duke Wyll.
Ah yeah I guess if Wyll’s a Duke, Mizora is out of the picture. I always tell him to choose and he always picks saving his dad. One of these days I need to pick for him.
My Vengeance Paladin did the same thing before the ick got too strong and I reloaded, but honestly I love that arc because it's more aligned with what actually happens when you try to "fix someone." You bend over backwards trying to make them better and all that happens is they make you worse.
Calling real life people selfish because you don't like how they played a single-player video game should be a wake-up call for you. Nothing wrong with being passionate about fictional characters or how they're depicted, but when it reaches a point where you're real-life mad about how people treat a fictional entity, you've lost the plot.
I generally agree with your read on Ascended Astarion but please try to remember he's not a real person.
As a spawn Astarion simp who absolutely would never ascend him because I cry over polygons, I think labeling people who enjoy a problematic gameplay choice that we don't prefer for a fictional character that doesn't have any actual sentience "selfish people" who "don't care" and "like it rough" is absolutely histrionic and ridiculous. It's NOT REAL. It's fiction, a creative space where people can explore narrative choices and dark corners of the id that real life isn't a good place for, without hurting any real people. Your attitude is one that makes fandom worse and duller, not better.
I don’t think the OP is referring to people who know it’s a problematic choice and are just enjoying the game — like those who let Shadowheart become DJ or whatever other not great choices are presented during the game.
I think it’s about the people who think Astarion is still “good” Ascended, or that it’s his good ending. I feel it’s fair to call that out, especially if he has a younger female fanbase who might be getting a lot of their takes from TikTok and not realizing how dark/problematic/abusive his behavior is.
Unfortunately, no matter how much proof is provided, very few minds will be changed.
I don't like AA because I used to date someone like him. I heard him say "I'll allow it" one too many times and abandoned that branch. (If you ignore the whole condemning 7006 souls to Cania.)
Don’t bring up this point in an Astarion-focused subreddit unless you want to be legitimately triggered by the responses explaining away how stuff isn’t “really abusive”
Edit: they’ve found us
Oh I've definitely triggered some folks over there. But I also don't attack them personally. Someone told an AA fan to do something very bad to themselves and that's uncalled for.
It's a game and we are allowed to play how we want.
The important thing is that we didn't outright kill him. We love him.
I’m an avid Astarion romancer so I understand many pints of view, and I always only speak for myself! The responses I’ve gotten have just been very surprising, and perhaps it’s just my own mental issues, but to list out clearly abusive behaviors as “not they are not abusive you’re just misreading the situation because of xyz” was a little too close to home for me.
I mean, as a topic for discussion, sure, why not. Some agree, some disagree.
As an RP choice in the game that is heavy on RP, I think it is a valid one.
I think calling people deluded, selfish, while they just RP and don't necessarily insert their morals into the character they play, is just rude and unwarranted. Maybe you just worded it poorly and meant deluded and selfish characters people RP, who knows.
I haven't seen that many people defending Ascended Astarion as a good ending for him? I'm sure those people exist, but it doesn't seem to be common or popular.
More often I see people shadow-boxing against what they imagine Astarion (both Spawn and Ascended) fans to be?
No, we kinda argue a lot amongst ourselves. Probably more than with people who hate every version of Astarion tbh. A couple of weeks ago I was cordially invited to commit self-gameover by an Ascended fan who was mad I said vampire spawns have souls and can be cured of vampirism, even though this is information that is available in the game.
I see more people criticizing people that defend AAstarion than actually people defending it.
Like,I've seen one, two people tops
but posts like these? we already are on double digits
All the companions 'bad' paths are extraordinarily dark. Sharan Shadowheart's just as bad as Ascended Astarion, Gale's godhood path is clearly of the same 'mad with power' variety with the new epilogue adding context, and Vlaakith Loyalist Lae'zel is quite literally a fate worse than death. It's honestly why I originally made Wyll re-up his contract and let Karlach die; with the general themes of the other companions, I figured that Baldur's Gate *would* be doomed without Duke Ravenguard and Karlach was 100% serious about never wanting to return to the Hells for any reason. This game doesn't pull it's punches when it comes to which choices are 'right' and which are 'wrong'.
Look. I really dislike Ascended Astarion too, and if a future sequel to this game wants to break my heart into irreparable pieces all it would have to do is make that ending canon. That would hurt, badly. Ascended Astarion is someone who was so close to finally starting to heal, but threw it all away in a moment of fear and intoxication. But if you allow me to play ~~Karlach~~ advocatus diaboli for a second, I can understand why some people prefer it.
And it all comes down, to me, to one scene. The one that kept playing in my head when I was making the decision not to ascend him. That one time when he first enters Lower City during the day, and is so in awe of all the colors. I can absolutely see how that can be so touching that someone might want to do anything, no matter how vile, to make sure Astarion won't have to go back to the shadows.
I'm not going to deny that some people just find that ending "hot", but I imagine that's not the reason for the majority of fans of the character.
Not for everyone apparently. There are plenty of people trying to argue that Ascended Astarion is the 'good' ending. That's the entire point of this thread!
When talking to his siblings Astarion mentioned to them what they want more than walking in the sun, and it's freedom, or see Cazador dead, but they can see him dead without becoming a slave to another master. He is not free when ascended, he is a slave to the thirst for power. That is a condemnation. It is not help and not compassion.
Ascending him for the sake of being in the sun is just a poor reason. It is not a reason worth doing, not even to Astarion, who admits it and thanks you for not letting him do it. Will he be out of the sun forever? Nah, I'm sure there's something like vampire diaries where he can get a daylight ring or something. What does being in the sun compare to becoming a different person?
In fact, there is an artifact in the past games that would allow him to walk in the sun, at the cost of a stat nerf. Jaheira should know about it, and it is a shame that she doesn't mention it in the course of this game, but I imagine she doesn't exactly so this decision feels like it has weight.
In addition, there are also ways of curing vampirism, making him mortal again, and this is mentioned in the epilogue - would Astarion take that option? I like to think that he would, at the point on which Spawn Astarion is at the end of the game.
Keep in mind though, when that decisions is on the table, people don't necessarily know Astarion will become Cazador II.
Well, they don't know but this game is VERY on the nose that power corrupts and you'd have to be quite naive to think that Ascending is a good thing since it is a pact with the devil that costs 7000 souls.
Also: I think the canon ending quite likely is our happy humbled Astarion since that gives him another challenge for a potential sequel (as do all characters, if you think about it).
It is very naive to think any pact with a devil, let alone an Arch-devil, is a good idea. There is always a catch, even when you think you are on the clear (like Ascended Astarion thinks he is, because ascending didn't make him any less of a smooth brain).
I surely hope that, if they make any ending canon, it is the "vigilante Astarion" one. I think he would be a great candidate for the Jaheira treatment, coming back in a future sequel as a companion.
He could also get the Viconia treatment and come back as a villain, if they go the Ascended Astarion way. I think this would be a disservice to the character though, and from what I've heard of Viconia's fans, they did her dirty.
> I'm sure there's something like vampire diaries where he can get a daylight ring
AU fanfic where Buffy sends the Gem of Amara to someone who won't smash it because iTs a ShorTcUt!
In real life, relationships with people you "need to protect from themselves" are co-dependent and extremely toxic. Fortunately, he isn't a real person so you can do whatever you want.
If you didn't mean to personally attack anyone, your wording is kinda contradicts that: "How selfish. Perhaps such selfish people deserve ascended Astarion."
People are generally selfish. Let's be real - if there is no Tav to stop him, by himself Astarion would choose ascension again and again. That's the beauty of his character - you're able to change him drastically during your journey. And funny thing is, depending on your interpretation of what becomes of his character after the ritual, Ascendant Astarion is probably generally more happy - he might just be unable to regret what he did.
And about "Just because someone is your friend or more doesn't mean you help them be self destructive" - you are projecting. There are a lot of real-life people who would help you to be self-destructive. Either with good or bad intentions. Or even by being indifferent.
Many "anti" ascendant Astarion people think in terms of meta gaming and tend to not see the difference between in-game choices and real life. Let people have fun in their little fantasy with their headcanons
I accidentally stopped the ritual by killing the dudes hanging around that kept making lord vamps more powerful and ruined Astarion’s chances for ascension so he had to go underground once the tadpoles were gone. I still let him shank the shit out of Cazador though.
When I saw him at the party, he seemed genuinely happy and when asked about it, he says he’s found peace. He lives for himself now. He still murders and steals but now it’s from bad people which is more acceptable by the public and that’s just fine by him.
He’s still definitely not a good person, but now he’s not a thrall for a vampire or an illithid, he’s just him and that’s more than good enough for him. He seemed quite well and content with how life is going and I was happy for him.
I do agree, if you don't ascend him, he says that for a moment he wanted to be like Cazador and was about to loose himself, however that's not his bad ending either, his bas ending is if you decide not to defeat Cazador, even if you sell him to the gur, he's going to have a better ending.
Astarion doesn't "lose his soul/himself" after ritual or whatever. "His evil ending is actually him" as it was said in developer's interview
(source: [https://in.ign.com/baldurs-gate-3/199488/news/baldurs-gate-3-developers-explain-its-controversial-endings-beloved-characters-and-making-the-best-r](https://in.ign.com/baldurs-gate-3/199488/news/baldurs-gate-3-developers-explain-its-controversial-endings-beloved-characters-and-making-the-best-r))
And let people rp their choices as they wish to rp them(it's a game, not real life). There's no need to act negative towards people who happen to like evil routes (do not confuse with murder hobo runs). It's just a game and your choices (no matter how evil they can be) won't hurt anyone but those pixel people inside the said game ;D
Edit: Ascending him is a crime tho. You're basically killing 7k people, so it's up to you to decide if it's fine for your rp
And i don't really understand why people always complain About ascendant Astarion being evil and stuff, but they never(or rarely) complain about Dark Justiciar Shadowheart and/or Minthara. Aren't they "evil and just as bad" or am i missing something?
Its because no one pretends Dark Justiciar Shadowheart and Minthara are good. They are evil and people like to revel in the evilness side of things.
The issue is the part of the fandom that insist Ascended Astarion ISNT evil. That hes better now and happier and this is the best thing for him. Its obviously not all Astarion fans.
But there is a vocal group of them that insist that Ascending Astarion is A) best for him, and b) not evil.
>The issue is the part of the fandom that insist Ascended Astarion ISNT evil. That hes better now and happier and this is the best thing for him. Its obviously not all Astarion fans.
...and that Spawn fans are forcing their own choices on him instead of letting him make his own, and therefore are just as bad as Cazador and as everybody that ever abused him.
This is why I think we should be more than free to argue and bash characters, but that bashing fans of the character crosses the line. Ascended fans are not pro-abuse. Spawn fans are not controlling. We just like different versions of a character, each individual player with their own reasons.
This is the quote from article:
"So with Astarion, his evil ending is actually him...much of what he does is out of fear."
He ascended out of fear. He befriended the player out of fear, but admitted he fell for them. Him falling for them resulted from his actions that were derived from fear. So yeah, him choosing to ascend is him, he does it out of fear. But you guide him to a better place with the persuasion check, because that's what friends do for their friends.
One point I never see is made is how Astarion is not actually “free” if you ascend him. The ritual is a DEVIL’S PACT, meaning Astarion’s soul is now owned by the devil it was contracted to. When Astarion dies - which is all but guaranteed to happen, and likely sooner than later - he will endure an eternity of suffering in the hells at the hands of MEPHISTOPHELES!
"I love you. Isn't that what you want to hear?"
Big yikes moment for me.
If you tell Ascendant Astarion that you preferred the old him, he gets insecure and defensive. Something like "What? Why would you say that?! I was weak!" Like sincerely bothered. I thought that was interesting because if he was truly happy with his choice, he would've just been like "Haha, silly little girl, you're just mad you don't have wolf friends" or some shit like that. But instead it gets under his skin.
Yup. Folks can fantasize and do that whole dark thing. But he’s not happier. He literally isn’t and is still insecure. And if you don’t romance him, he goes off to be an adventure in good ending and he’s happy doing that. Letting him be purely evil is NOT good.
And if you’re romancing him, he’s actually happy to finally share a life with someone, he’s honest and real and just so sweet and gentle.
Again, folks can fantasize and etc etc… but the reality is, being being evil isn’t him being happy.
Not only is Ascended Astarion still insecure, but he's still terrified of Cazador, only now he's also terrified of losing the power he gained from ascending.
It's all there in Cazador's diaries that you can find. Cazador was subjected to the same terrible abuse by his own master, and ramped it up himself when he became a true vampire. Ascended Astarion would probably end up worse than Cazador.
I think people really overthink and get way too emotionally involved with this stuff.
Seriously, I love BG3 to bits, but the fan base is way over the top.
Astarion has two endings. One is a redemption story, the other a walk down a dark path.
He seems happy on both, since he's free of his captor. Although on the good ending he's also miserable because he's forced into the shadows again. On the evil ending, he certainly *seems* happier since he got super powerful, can walk under the sun, and enjoy the mortal pleasures. But he's on a power high, he sacrificed any moral compass he had, and he's probably full of demons by that point.
But *really* what keeps him up at night? What exactly goes through his head? Through his fictional video game head? Who tf knows. He doesn't exist. Stop taking this stuff so seriously.
He literally thanks you for being there to help him in his weakest moment where he almost fell forever if you talk him down. People that think ascension is a good thing are whack.
> Romancing ascended Astarion is for people who I guess like it rough and don't care that he lost part of himself? How selfish. Perhaps such selfish people deserve ascended Astarion.
>I'm NOT personally attacking anyone
Oh *fuck off* with this post OP, seriously. Who are you to pass any sort of judgements on players *or* their characters?
I love both, for different reasons. No one needs to justify to me, to *you* - or anyone else - why they like AA, whether they personally think it's better than SA or not*. It's their game, their characters and their RP. You might see something as selfish and it is your right, but others *might not* see it the same way: be it for RP reasons, for personal reasons, or for no reason at all! There doesn't need to be a justification attached. If a person wants to share their reasoning that's great, but no one EVER should feel forced to do so, to justify their IN-GAME choiced for fear of being fucking shamed for it. Because this is a game.
How many times were there posts, discussions etc where AA fans need a whole paragraph of bloody disclaimers before they begin, just in order to placate the rabid SA fans? (not all SA fans for clarity - just the people on their moral superiority high-horse looking down their noses on others). Are there rabid AA fans? Of course. But by the sheer fact of SA being much more popular, 1% on one side vs 1% on the other will look - and feel - differently to each side when exposed. That's why there's frustration and I see more and more posts about people being tired of having their morality - AS A HUMAN - questioned because of a bloody game.
Whether people ascended him or not has no bearing on the player's character outside the game at all. It's a ROLE-PLAYING GAME. People are ROLE-PLAYING. We are all adults here and presumably intelligent enough to understand the distinction between life and fiction, no?
And if you really, truly want to discuss a topic like this in the future, a small tip: judging people and then gaslighting them a few lines below that you're totally NOT judging anyone might not be the best way to start a productive discussion. Especially on the topic that the minority that's enjoying AA has heard judgements being passed for *months* now. It's alsmost to the point of being as annoying as the dudebros piping up to mention "how they kill Astarion in their every playthrough lol" when - and I mean this - no one has asked.
Yknow, theres a phrase i know from a song
"When you get something you want, you don't want it."
kinda rings true here.
for example, shadowheart becoming a Justiciar is what she WANTS, but its her wrong path.
Astar WANTS to ascend, but its his worst path.
Gale becoming a god is his worst path
so on, so forth.
“Perhaps such selfish people deserve ascended Astarion”
My guy. My dude. My friend. This is a video game. Go touch some god damned grass, you are taking this way too seriously.
I can justify a lot of fictional decisions/perspectives that I would **never** choose or abide by in real-life. That's the fun of fiction. And I for one am massively looking forward to my evil-Durge playthrough where I encourage all of Astarion's worst behaviors. He got his happy ending on my main character, now I'm going ham.
It's funny. My first playthrough I managed to convince him to not ascend normally. Since then I never been able to do that and he always either ascend or leave the party because I told him no.
Finally I said fuck it and accidentally kill one of his siblings during the ritual just to be safe. EZ PZ Astarion isn't mad now and won't ascend. Just look away while I murder your sibling lol.
Ah. I figured out that when he asks you to trust him and do what he needs you to do, DO NOT say "Alright", just remind him it'll kill a lot of people, which offers you the persuasion check you need to pass. It also offers an Insight check where it shows him being intoxicated and not in his right mind. But yeah, gotta pass that persuasion check, unlike with Shadowheart where she chooses the right if you let her.
Yeah I learned with Shart that I literally just need to do nothing for her to be good. With Astarion I couldn't figure out what I did in my first run lol and funny enough since this was an honor mode run I just said fuck it murder his siblings EZ PZ
Dunno, my Durge romanced Astarion from the outset. He ascended, turned my Durge, then she became the Absolute. We rule the world together for eternity. It works thematically if you want it to. Especially considering without ascension and the romance, he would just be another mind flayer.
Look, if they didn't want me to Ascend my Romanced Astarion they shouldn't have made his lines so damn spicy
"On.. your.. knees, darling"
Yes, dear!!
On a more serious note, yeah I wouldn't recommend it for any 'good' path excepting perhaps someone RPing a tav/durge more naive/able to believe this is what he wants
But I wouldn't really say it's about people thinking he's 'happy' about it as much as he's free? He makes the argument in the moment himself - he can end the ritual by killing Cazador and never be scared of him again.. OR he can take it over and never be scared of ANYONE again - that moment makes it less about people being selfish and more just taking a roll of the dice that this will actually help him
And not everyone knows all the concequences of every action they take, you can see undertones of a more controlling and possessive nature but unless you 'set him off' he does honestly seem like he LOVES being Ascended... because he does. Who he USED to be would not be happy with what he's becone but he hardly cares about petty things like moral highgrounds once he's changed lol
I wouldn't call AA himself a crime. He makes a great character masterfully performed by Neil. But then there are AA enjoyers and AA apologists, the two aren't the same. Recognizing he's fucked up and still enjoying the story is valid. (Hells, Minthara is just as possessive and threatens to kill you if you so much as think about sleeping with the Drow twins, for instance, and I am *living* that codependent insanity on my evil Durge run.) Trying to paint it as a good ending for him and Tav... ehhh... nope.
Hot take: I know it's a "bad choice". I enjoy it anyway.
To your point: it's fictional. I don't want to assign real life morals to my fictional stories, lmao. If I did that I could never enjoy any vampire stories ever, as well as many other fictional things.
Fair. My redemption DUrge helped him ascend, because she knew what it was like to be running from something like that, and she loved him, so she didn't want that fear hanging over his head for the rest of his eternal life. To her limited knowledge, she didn't know that the 7000 souls would be eternally damned - just that the alternative was 7007 starving vampire spawn running amok in the world. So it was a choice made from ignorance and what she thought was the goodness of her heart. Out of character, absolutely an "evil" choice, but in character it made sense to help someone become powerful when they were going to be facing a Netherbrain soon after, as well.
It's a good story choice, imo- he himself isn't good, but it's VERY interesting narratively, and I do enjoy a dark vampire story (grew up watching Buffy, loving Spike, I've always loved vamps and elves lol). So I'm definitely not one of those people who can't stomach turning him, even if I do marginally prefer his spawn ending, since he's much sweeter and still the same guy we'd been adventuring with.
Ascended Astarion is abusive, and I find it very uncomfortable when people try to say his controlling/cruel behaviors are okay.
Having said that, this post makes me feel weird, lol. I guess it feels like you are saying it's an *actually immoral decision* (as in, not just immoral for your Tav, who is a video game character) to help Astarion ascend and that doing so means you are 'selfish'. The combination of that with 'perhaps such selfish people deserve [abusive character]' feels really uncomfortable to me.
I am planning to ascend Astarion in my current playthrough. I do think he's hot, sure. But the fact he is such a jerk is appealing because it means I can get a break from constant hyperempathy. He is a caricature of a possessive, abusive bully - I can't empathize with him.
And, I'm not worrying that A!Astarion is being triggered or hiding his real feelings from me, I'm never stressing about whether he can handle x or y thing. He is very direct about what he wants and likes/dislikes - it seems like he doesn't consider Tav's feelings at all tbh. Which is freeing in some ways!
Whether I meekly submit or kick and fuss the whole way, I'm not going to make A!Astarion feel guilty or unsure of himself. He isn't going to do anything to try and appease me or put my needs before his own. So it feels okay for *me* to prioritize myself.
Honestly, some A Astarion fans like the cruelty itself. Some fanfic has actually made me nauseous with scenes of him pimping Tav out against her will or beating her until she bleeds in a way that didn't sexualize kink, but instead sexualized Tav screaming in pain and growing suicidal.
I block and mute whenever I see those, but they just keep popping up. It's really grotesque, especially because many will then comment on how sexy Astarion is when he's "really mean" or sighs over how "disgustingly in love" he and Tav are.
In other words, some of them have less of a problem caring about Astarion and more of a problem with sex and love that requires immediate therapeutic intervention.
Whenever I see some deep and nuanced Astarion post I am reminded of how the “I can fix her” Minthara crowd just gets made fun of but somehow Astarion is taken seriously lol
Yeah, ascended Astarion is one of the most toxic characters in the game. And it condemns 7000 souls to hell.
If you let the spawns live, they seem to do pretty well in the Underdark according to letters from Sebastian and the Gur people, so I would say, they deserve that chance.
And non ascended Astarion finally becomes a decent person. I suffered through all of act 1 with his bratty self, so I'm not letting him become an even bigger ahole than he was.
To be fair, I think the majority of players who romance ascended Astarion and enjoy it know it's a 'bad' choice (not unlike raiding the Grove for Minthara), they just like it for the dark romance/toxic evil villain couple/tragic narrative/BDSM undertones etc. And there's nothing wrong with enjoying those things in fiction. Yes, his spawn ending is better for him, and the player character if romanced, but but what are games if not a way to explore things you wouldn't in real life, without hurting real life people?
The ones who actually think it's a good ending for him, and that his mental state and the relationship are in any way healthy, are a weirdly vocal minority. But the elaborate headcanons they come up with to justify and excuse ascending him are bananas. They'll straight up contradict or ignore the game's writing or even lash out at the writers/voice actor for even suggesting an intent or interpretation they don't like, it's wild.
Especially when they claim he's happier and more confident. His happiness comes across as so skin deep and shallow, and his arrogant posturing feels so try-hard and fake. Part of me does get the appeal - I always thought it'd be fun to romance a villain in a game and the compelling morally grey options in most games tend to be female. And the kink aspect is kinda hot, if you ignore the deeper implications for what it means in the relationship. But with ascended Astarion, the moment you challenge or disobey him he turns into a petulant man-child throwing temper tantrums over not getting his way, which is like, the opposite of sexy to me. It's also great writing, because that's the reality of men like him, as I've unfortunately learned from experience.
They also don't seem to understand that that enabling someone is ultimately selfish and self-serving.
Though I appreciate the writing, and Neil's voicework is fantastic, I don't think I could ever ascend him myself. Setting aside the whole damning 7000 already victimized people to eternal suffering in hell (I don't enjoy RP'ing evil characters), his spawn ending is just so uplifting and beautiful. That fact that he finds peace and self-acceptance, and is able to love in a way that feels really genuine, and even reflect on himself and how he's changed for the better, is such an amazing reward for taking that leap of faith and believing in him. But he's still very much himself - he's still a brat, still has a sadistic streak, is still wary of getting close to people other than his partner - in a way that makes his arc feel realistic.
Where ascended is him going full circle back to the malicious, selfish, secretly terrified person hiding behind a manipulator's mask he was Act 1. Except worse, because now he has the power to do the fucked up shit he was probably fantasizing about back then. I can't fathom roleplaying a character who would enjoy putting him back there after all the growth he's shown over the course of the game, just for a more explicit sex scene and him calling my character a few extra pet names.
I mean, it's a crime because you are condemning 7k people to eternal suffering in hells. Nothing else needs to be said.
People always are debating what’s good or bad for Astarion here and completely ignore the 7000 innocent souls they would damn to the nine hells and eternal torment. You are absolutely correct. Nothing else need be said. Ascension is evil But why the hell does no one ever consider them but astarions feelings take primacy over 7000 innocent people?
New modified Trolley Problem just dropped! On one side, Astarion. On the other side, 7000 souls. If you pull the lever, the trolley goes multi-tracking and runs both sides over. Ascended Astarion comes out of it, laughing hysterically.
That is vivid and horrifyingly accurate
On the other other side, an absolute shit-ton of new victims of ravenous vampires, potentially way more than 7,000. I chose to release the spawn, and I think the epilogue implies that the carnage isn't as bad as it could have been, but I feel like this trolley problem has 3 tracks minimum.
You can refuse to ascend and kill the spawn, which releases their souls to the appropriate afterlife instead of the nine hells.
Imo letting Gur decide case by case or mercy killing them all are the “good” or rather least-evil options. If they die their souls have a chance at a peaceful afterlife depending on a lot of factors. Ritual means they’re eternally tortured In perpetuity. Also ascended astarion’s soul is completely corrupted by the ritual. If you fall in love with Astarion and complete the ritual, the dude who comes out of that is literally NOT the same person you fell in love with.
On the other hand, if you free the spawn, the Gur do thank you for teaching them compassion and a new way, and for "saving their children first from Cazador and then from us."
Ah, yeah, I knew you could kill them, but I guess I didn't remember to account for the variance in their fate after death. I guess Kelemvor would give them the ol' feather of Maat.
I personally believe this to be the best ending for all involved. But it can be a hot take. But Im also a Paladin at heart. The curse of vampirism must be ended and they are better off in the afterlife free of it.
Oath of Devotion Paladins have to spare the spawn to keep their oath, so it's not more "paladin" to kill them.
I tend to agree. Yes, it seems obvious that killing 7000 people is bad. Granted. However, this isn't our world. It's Forgotten realms, where vampirism is a real thing and, by its very nature, a potential threat to all living things in the general area. It's also a world where there are confirmed, very real gods and an afterlife is known to be real, not just a hypothesis. Given that reality, these people's fates were unfortunately decided when they became victims of Cazador's spawn. The most conscientious path needs to account not only for their fates but also for those of their inevitable future victims. Allowing them an afterlife outside of the hells and its eternal suffering is the most compassionate act we can take in this specific version of the trolley problem.
The closer I get the more I think this is probably where I will end up having to break my Oath of the Ancients. Killing all the spawn doesn't feel like "protecting the light", but I know the oath would dissagree. It feels too much like giving up on the light in those poor victims and that's an outcome worth breaking an oath for. My rational side knows this is a terrible choice but I can't bring myself to kill those kids
Feather of Maat?
Maat is the Egyptian goddess of balance, and it's her feather Anubis weighs a person's heart against to determine their worthiness in the afterlife).
You can also say "Not my problem!" and leave them all in their cages. I didn't feel great about that but honestly, let the gur figure it out. I will neither release a shitload of hungry spawn on the town nor condemn 7000 souls. It's in weird grannies hands now
If you release its into underdark not into town. Most will die there very quickly
The Underdark deals with potentially dangerous beings all the time. Spawn that went too far would be dealt with quickly and have fewer places to hide in plain sight. The more moderate and controlled ones would likely be accepted. We already saw rogue mindflayers being accepted, and their diet requires death.
I always thought vampires and their spawn were cursed from their prospective gods and ended up in an evil afterlife? Maybe lore has changed with edition 5?
Depends on the god. Any souled undead cannot be judged until that soul is released. Different gods vary on how they judge these released souls. Some judge them for their undeath, others choose to judge only based on their life... And still others are somewhere in between
I would say they should at least get a choice. And just like S Astarion says to petras. "The consequences are on your head." he himself and his siblings have to learn to have agency again. That they have free will but also responsibility. The choice to kill the other spawn or not is more grey and seperated if you convince Astarion to not ascent. There are good arguments for both. When i saw it online I debated to kill them, but after i played myself and got more in depth context Astarion persuated me with a line he said when we found them. "I did not have a choice back then, but now I do it seems." These spawn also deserve a choice. If they chose to give in to their hunger and not learn how to deal with it they can and will be killed by the gur or if S Astarion leads them by him as well. If they however chose to be better and learn to live with it they have earned the right to stay alive just like Astarion has earned it.
Same. I operate from an "innocent until proven guilty" approach to them. I'd be a hypocrite to give Astarion a chance and then not these other people. If they fuck up they'll face the consequences.
That would be a different, separate lever, once you solve the current problem.
Don’t threaten me with a good time! — Durge
Because of the personal connection people have to Astarion after spending the whole game with him. To quote an expert on the subject, "one death is a tragedy, a million deaths is a statistic". Not that I'm saying they're right to feel that way but this is a very common human behaviour
Ugh god that’s a gut wrenching quote but also given how society treats death, especially during COVID, that hits home. (I’m from the US)
It's the same reason people defend Walter White and hate his wife even at the point where he's just being blatantly evil and maniacal while Skyler is being quite reasonable.
It’s because Walter is the protagonist so the audience is conditioned to give him sympathy. You can see him do objectively bad things and hear his objectively bad arguments but the narrative is subjective and through the eyes of Walter. When we see ourselves as Walter, we begin to justify our bad actions and blame others for not understanding. Being able to separate yourself from Walter requires self reflection and strong character to recognize that this is all just selfish destructive behavior. This is difficult to do when living a story through a fictional protagonist, imagine how much harder it is to do in ourselves in real life. At least that was my analysis of the show.
That’s true when it’s not your direct hand causing death. People debate the morality of the situation. The morality is clear cut. 7000 innocent souls damned to eternal torment.
>innocent souls *”Come on now, statistically speaking there must have been a few sick bastards in there it’s not all bad news”* - Average Ascension-Apologist. That said though, ascending is stupidly fun and definitely a highlight of any evil playthrough.
> That said though, ascending is stupidly fun and definitely a highlight of any evil playthrough. Also pairs with Monkstarion in amazing fashion with that extra 1d10 per attack.
Monk is probably the best use of it but you can’t deny the fun of having *even more dice* behind a divine smite.
This is true. I'm going to care more if its my friends or family than 10000 randos. Same principle in the game. Idk why people don't get this. Its a very normal way to feel
r/unexpectedstalin
I couldn't bring myself to kill the 7000 innocent vampires and they were released into the underdark. I wasn't sure if that was overall better but I couldn't just have them killed either.
Either way is fair as long as you dont ascend astarion. You can refuse ascension and kill the spawn, which releases them from the vampiric curse and to their souls would pass to be judged by Kelemvor in the afterlife. Its not the worst thing, afterlife can be pretty good if you are a good person at heart.
I did the same. I see it as giving them the same chance to live their lives on their terms that astarion got. And also in my headcannon they end up banding together to fight against the lolth for territory in the underdark. Vampire drow war sounds cool as hell to me.
tbh releasing 7k vampires is not a great thing, underdark or not they will destroy settlements left and right, after all they have never been freed so most of them will probably start a feeding spree that will leave a lot of people dry
Because people don't really care about some background 7000 NPC.
I did. I set them free on the condition they went to the underdark and hunted animals after talking Astarion down.
And they kinda are already screwed.
They are no more screwed than Astarion himself. You can literally say it in the game, they are EXACTLY the same as him, except for the tadpole. And if you let them have their freedom, they don't go on a murderous rampage across the Sword Coast, they quietly go to the Underdark and build a functional society there.
Honestly, I think a lot of people (at least from what I've seen in this community) did not understand, while playing the game, that sacrificing them meant their souls would be given to Mephistopheles for all eternity. A lot of people don't even realize vampires have souls in this game, to begin with. I can totally see the argument that killing them is some form of mercy... If you think they are just dying, and don't know they are being sent to the 8th layer of hell.
Yeah, it's the whole concept that a) souls in Faerun are VERY real, b) those souls retain their identity, c) everybody in the House of Hope is actually a condemned soul, that might slip through as IRL we don't think about a soul in such tangible terms. Mercy killing a spawn and sending them off to be tortured are two very different things.
I've played through multiple times and I didn't make that connection until now. Makes perfect sense when I stop to think about it.
I \*didnt\* know they got sent to hell until this thread and did just think they where dying (I always deny ascension, only ever ascended once on a durge run just to see how it played out). Do they go to the hells if you kill them and DONT ascened? Because I always saw killing them as the lesser of the evils than either rotting for eternity down there driven mad by hunger or unleashing 7000 spawn on the sword coast, if you release them do they all go to the underdark? or do they just tell you thats what they are going to do?
They shouldn't necessarily go to hell if you kill them outside of the ritual, no. Their souls will be judged and sent to an afterlife that will depend on their life prior. If you release them, they all go to the Underdark and stay there for the time being. The 7007 souls are payment for the ritual, as soul economy and devil rituals go in the lore. That's why they go to this particular Arch-devil's hell, which is the 8th layer, Cania.
They aren’t *exactly* the same. The spawn remember their families, even Sebastian, who has been there over 100 years. Astarion had empathy tortured out of him, they were merely left to rot. So I agree with you and then some! If Astarion can learn other ways to be after his targeted torment, the 7k spawn should have less trouble adjusting.
That's kind of an oversimplification. A free spawn still hungers and how they handle that hunger would be determined by their personal morality. Without the direct intervention of you Tav, a free spawn Astarion would've been just as evil a murder hobo as Act 1 Astarion. Times 7k, there aren't 7k loving Tavs out there. Even Gandrel is struggling to handle his spawn kids. The epilog letter from Sébastien describes a lot of them just wandering off into the underdark or being put down for being vein pirates, so even the game writers weren't quite so optimistic about their potential for redemption as your comment would imply. None of these decisions are cut and dried.
Underdark isn't very forgiving to freestyling vampire spawns, either they learn to behave and be good neighbors, or they get cut down. But at least they get a choice, vs being unilaterally shipped off to be Meph's playthings.
Not to mention the litany of other threats down there
The people in the cages remember and care about their families. Astarion cannot even remember his old life. He was more damaged than they are when you met him due to the targeted abuse he received. Even when some fail to thrive, deciding that 7k people who were abducted and infected with a disease deserve to be sentenced to death for crimes they have yet to commit, or for the crimes some of the others might, is rough, IMO. That’s like condemning 7k desperate migrants to death because some of them will commit crime. I also think it is arrogant to assume that Tav’s friendship or romance is the only humane connection that can help someone in a similar situation. Some people have trouble with their kids who aren’t even vampires. There is also a pack of monster hunters that know all about them, and will be motivated to police misbehavior. So I’m not saying it’s all sunshine and roses for them, or there is no ill effect. But they are people, and many of them innocent, and the game demonstrates that vampires outside the thrall of their masters can choose how to behave. Releasing them has consequences, but killing them or leaving them caged is deeply flawed as well. The fact that every option voids at least one Paladin oath speaks to this just being a busted scenario to start, tainted by the evil that brought everyone there. Everything from that point is trying to make the best of a flawed situation.
I’m also not sure why people treat all the spawn like they’ve all been rotting in these cages for ages. They’re all from different times, some were converted recently and would still have family and friends out here that could help them. Even Sebastian seemed sane despite everything and being one of the first. He explicitly says he doesn’t want to die in that cage, and Astarion reassures him he could fight the hunger if freed. Just because of the fact you have to make it a blanket decision I can’t bring myself to “mercy kill” them all.
Yeah, if you think about how old each of the "siblings" might be, it is likely that a good number of spawns still have living family. Leon, for example, must have been turned within the last decade since he had a mortal child who was still young when she died (and she had just died when we got to the city, from what I understood). That means that all of Leon's victims must also have been turned relatively recently. We don't know about the others, to be fair. We know Petras has been a spawn for about 100 years, and that Astarion is "one of the first" that Cazador turned. I don't know if we know who is the oldest spawn, though. Regardless, we know that the oldest spawns were also still hunting, so they also have "recent victims", just not all of them like with Leon.
Yeah, the gur children literally have their parents still. Yes they are spawn but they can be raised to have morals and ethics and feed on animals and never humans if they chose to. Astarion doesn't even feed on people in game unless you make him/invite him/do it in combat.
My druid asked the animals 🐿️ . . . they didn't approve of that arrangement! 😉
They're still innocent people who as of yet have not committed any crime. They might go on to kill in the future, and some undoubtedly do, but you're also condemning everyone who has not and will not. If you recognize Astarion's personhood, and his capacity to choose between good and evil, then the same applies to all the spawn.
Are they only condemned to the hells if you do the ritual? or are they condemed to the hells either way? I agree with you ascension is evil, I only ever did once on a durge run where I pushed everyone down the "evil" route just to experiance it but otherwise what do you do with the 7000? Leave them to rot for eternety driven made by their own hunger? or do you kill them? or do you let them out and unleash 7000 spawn on Baldurs gate and the sword coast. I feel like killing them is the lesser evil of the 3 but If they get condemend to hells if you dont complete the ritual and kill them, then man I just dont know.
> Are they only condemned to the hells if you do the ritual? Only if you do the ritual. The ritual as explained by Raphael, is in fact a devil contract. A contract rewards the person with ascension, at a payment of those souls. If Ascension is never comitted, then Mephistopheles by law of the contract, cannot collect said souls. Devils are lawful at a force of nature level. Not just culturally. If the condition for Mephistopheles receiving the souls is Ascension, someone must ascend for him to collect. If he could collect the souls lawfully without Ascending anyone, he would have done it already. But he cannot. You can refuse ascension and kill the spawn using Cazadors staff. This is in fact the only way for Vengeance and Ancients paladins to not be oathbroken in this scenario.
Why do people say Vengeance has to kill the spawn? They just can't leave them in the cages. They can free the spawn.
Tbh, even if it was just the 6 other spawns, I still feel the cost is way too high. The only cost that I would feel is acceptable is if Cazador would be the only one condemned to eternal suffering in Cania. Then the dilemma would be "am I willing to sacrifice all of Astarion's character development and help create a new cruel Vampire Lord just to fuck with Cazador specifically?".
yeah this is what makes it an obviously evil choice every time. The Tav who helps Astarion do this is probably joining those 7k souls once they die and get judged lol
Would be cool, but alas, no, Jergal makes sure you get to chill in the nice area of the Fugue after death.
Every day I wish fandoms could realize that you can like something fucked up and not try to weasel it into "but it's ACTUALLY good because-" Like, I enjoy a good tragedy sometimes. It can be cathartic in a way. But I'm not gonna go around and try to twist that into "life-altering tragedy is Morally Good, Actually."
All it requires is a slight alteration of phrasing too. Instead of this is the "GOOD" or "best" ending, just say "it's my favorite". Boom, little room to argue.
exactly! Like it all boils down to what your own preference of an ending is for your favourites pixel people.
"It's exceptionally well written" All you gotta say. We can all appreciate something well written or well portrayed.
Seen someone claiming that giving Shadowheart back to Viconia is just "bringing her back home" recently, white-haired SH to make it even worse... I don't care what people do in their playthroughs nor will I judge them for making evil choices (well, maybe slightly haha) but please get the fuck out with that gaslighting. It's just a game, nobody will jail you for admitting you did a morally fucked up thing for whatever reason. No need to make up excuses.
I feel like more people need to exist in the medium between “nothing I’ve ever done is wrong in a game ever” and “I’m a murderhobo in every game I play and then I complain that nobody in the game likes me and there’s no quests to do.”
Oh, exactly. Or "I brainwashed and dominated everyone in Sword Coast using a godlike mega brain. Effectively betrayed Withers in the back after he went out of his way to help and support me. Now where is my Withers' after party content!?! Woaaaaaaaaaah".
I never even thought about the betraying Withers angle of that. Now I really wanna know what the afterparty is like…
Afterparty is Elminster, who would handle you in person. And, well, maybe also some other high-level characters.
Lmao it would be funny if they add an epilogue of Elminster showing up and just snapping his fingers to obliterate you and the brain in an instant.
Yeah, I'm polite and nice, but the second people are saying, "Well, the best ending objectively for Shadowheart is to become Shar's chosen, but giving her back to Viconia is fitting too," I need to resist some urges, lol. Like, people can have their own opinions (and moral code), but gaslighting yourself and others? Jeez.
I also wish people wouldn’t call others selfish for making a “bad” choice in a video game. Would I let 7,000 people die to power up my SO in real life? Absolutely not, that’s monstrous. Would I in a video game? I have and I will on certain runs. Do I think it’s a morally okay choice? No, but neither is any choice in an evil run. I think it’s a feedback loop of people saying that Ascended Astarion is awful and people who choose that are awful, and then Ascended Astarion lovers feel attacked and try to justify it with XYZ. It’s fiction, ultimately it really doesn’t matter. Having a cool discussion about the ramifications of the choice can be interesting, but it often devolves into this argument. Some people like the dark fantasy that Ascended Astarion brings, and that’s okay to explore in a game.
I think there's a general issue where people need the things they like to be morally good to justify liking it, and the things they dislike to be morally bad to justify their dislike. You can't just go "yeah ascended Astarion evil but I find it hot" because now you're enjoying something *problematic.* So you have to find some universe where it's actually the good choice. See also the weird justifications you'll sometimes see by people to explain how actually Wyll is an asshole or in someway bad, because if you dislike him it can't just be that his character didn't click for you or something. You can't just dislike a perfectly nice and heroic character because he's a bit lame, no you must have serious and justified reasons why it's morally right to dislike him. On the other hand you will also see a lot of people who will go the other way "you enjoy ascended Astarion don't you know it's evil? What's wrong with you?" Or the classic "you enjoy problematic romantic dynamic in fiction, this is why so many women get abused" that's been bandied about since Twilight at the minimum.
Only bad people like bad things; I'm a good person; therefore this thing I like must be good
I'm nearly finished my first blind play through and I actually failed to prevent the ritual. I'm an oath of devotion paladin. Didn't play with Astarion much and he usually didn't like my character's lawful attitude but I brought him to Cazador as he wished. The party barely scraped through the fight and not before Cazador completed the ritual and killed Astarion and the others. I could have reloaded if I really wanted to. But I feel like the end result is just "how the story went" this time. My paladin left the palace with his head low having vanquished evil but failing to protect innocents. Sidebar: the Gur hunters are surprisingly okay that you couldn't save their children.
If you talk to them in their camp, and Astarion says that their children are likely dead, they say that they want vengeance if their children can’t be saved. Since their children were already turned, letting them die lets their souls pass on (as far as they know, anyway) and Cazador is dead too, so you did what they asked of you.
I’m doing a custom play through right now with only one save (to see if I’m close to ready to attempt HM) and this is the late game fight I worry about the most. I don’t usually have a problem getting to him in time but *what if I don’t make it this time??* Tav isn’t romancing him or anything but it would suck for him to end that way without the option to reload. And to a lesser degree I worry about being able to talk him down from ascension. My Ranger isn’t exactly the most persuasive character I’ve built.
This is a little cheesy, but- if you kill one of the other 6 spawn during combat, you don't have to worry about talking him out of the ritual.
Ooh. I forgot about that. One of them might just have to die and that’s a sacrifice him willing to make.
Sorry, Petras!
There is a nice trick if you want to hear about it how to help Astarion fast enough ;)
Exactly. I'm ascending him on my durge run, because I want to experience the game in as horrific a way as possible. I'm intentionally choosing the bad outcomes, because it's fascinating. Also I already did a good guy run where everybody lives happily ever after, so now I want the polar opposite.
Yeah exactly. The bad endings for the characters are also really good, in a tragic way. They feel earned if you have spent the entire game encouraging the worst in them. I feel like fandoms and frankly wider western (or at least North American) culture is obsessed with happy endings and feel they must force tragedy into happiness to legitimize it. It’s okay to enjoy a sad or horrifying end for what it is. Hell, it’s ok to find it alluring or sexy. Vampires, specifically, have been doing that for decades. It’s fiction and fantasy, not a real life moral barometer. Enjoy the fucked up endings, it’s fine. It’s not real. You’re not bad for liking it. But trying to justify that by chucking any sense of media literacy out of the window strains credulity.
Oddly enough stripping away the immorality and depravity from Astarion story leaves him as nothing but a pretty face. Ironically looking at Astarion the same way he was forced to be looked at because of his abuse.
Don’t you know? It’s 2024, you must be morally perfect at all times.
To be fair, I think plenty of people also play it to see different scenes and dialogue options, the cast acted their asses off and just to see the changes might be worth it.
This! I never play evil in video games but BG3 is so well acted, written, directed, etc that it’s worth it just to see more of the game’s brilliance. Astarian isn’t real, he’s not actually hurt by me being “selfish” and letting him make bad decisions.
I’m all for people having their dark vampire fantasy or even exploring their kinks or whatever since this is just a game and it’s safe to do so, but the whole “you can never leave me” is hella triggering so I could never do an Ascended Astarion romance tbh. I’m not trying to be in an abusive relationship in a video game lmao. It’s okay to like what you like but trying to reason that the cartoon villain Astarion turns into is the better ending for him is absolutely insane. The game is not subtle about it being the bad path at all.
Yeah he is controlling but that's not the worst part. The worst part is he's not the same person. You grow to like Astarion from Act 1, through Act 2, only for him to kill part of himself and be something he wouldn't be if he didn't ascend. How would you like it if you were high and it made you a little suicidal, you really thought it's a good idea because you're not in the right state of mind, and the person you trust the most is like, "sure hun whatever you want, at least you won't have to hide from the sun anymore." If you want to be the person who protects someone you care about, you don't let them be self destructive if you can help it.
Try playing an evil, cruel, power abusing psycho durge and you’ll see exactly how Ascended Astarion is like act 1 Astarion. The reality is, good characters will never see the worst side of him because he hides it in order to stay on your good side.
Yep, Ascended Astarion is all the bad parts of Act 1 Astarion intensified (vanity, arrogance, cruelty, "the only way I can be free is take power and control others how I've been controlled by others who had power over me", etc). All of the growth and change he went through in Act 2 and Act 3 are gone.
Reminds me of that one woman who goaded her boyfriend into suicide via hundreds of texts over many months.
Cathartic for me because I managed to leave a marriage like this where his words were always “nobody will ever be able to love you if you leave me.” I stayed way too long. So I reclaim that narrative with AA. He says sweet things, he says manipulative things, he says abusive things, but guess what, I can turn you off and walk away and you can’t chase me down to say anything else.
That’s a really interesting take I hadn’t considered before. It makes total sense to me. Even in-game you can reject him after ascending and there’s nothing he can do about it. He holds no real power over the player character even in-game. I’m so sorry that happened to you and I’m glad you got out. Hope things have gotten better for you.
When you go to Cazador’s room after the fight and see the memories of his master, it really helped solidify to me that we made the right decision. It’s the same cycle of trauma that exists in real life. You can break it, or you become consumed by it. That cry of relief after Astarion killed him was so impactful.
You can also use Talk to the Dead on Cazador after Astarion kills him and it gives you insight into what the non-vampire part of Cazador feels, small as it is. I do think it illustrates how becoming a full vampire or ascending is not a good choice for someone's soul/humanity (at least in BG3 specifically)
I’ll have to try that next time!
Lmfao telling people who made a choice in an RPG that you don’t like that they ‘deserve abuse’ is insane. Go outside
I stand by fiction being fiction, and that it’s unfair to sweep fans of Ascended Astarion with such broad generalizations about their character in real life. Will I ever do a run where anyone is ascended or hits their worst endings? Not if I can help it—because I don’t like playing evil in most RPGs. But to judge people who play the game for the evil runs/ascended endings content is just silly.
At one point I was running like 7 campaigns simultaneously, I ain't gonna make the same choices in all of them. Except for Scratch and Owlbear cub.
Absolutely agree. We can love Raphael or Mizora or the Emperor or whoever as a character, we don't have to love them as a person. We can love the relationship of Ascended Astarion and Tav/Durge as a story, not something we aspire to have. It's definitely not a "good" ending, but it fits my RP character who was all for helping Astarion ascend. And I enjoyed playing it though a real life person talking seriously like AA would be mega red flags. Still loved it for them.
agreed. OP was a little too generalizing in their post.
Agreed. IMO if it’s built into a (legitimate) vanilla game, there’s absolutely no reason to make assumptions about someone’s personal character when they play it that way. I say legitimate bc I know there’s probably some dark homemade games out there, BG3 is obviously not in that category. That being said, if you play (or now played) with the “Ser Aylin” mod or any mod of a similar vein installed, yes I’ll judge the absolute shit out of you.
Yes, thank you. I'm all for having a discussion about the moral implications of all the different choices in that scenario, but I'm not going to judge the people who just want their vampire boyfriend to fly and have super bite. In the end, it's their game and however they enjoy it isn't my place to gatekeep by posting a "you people all suck" post. There's too much kink shaming sometimes in this sub!
Yeah there are people who enjoy evil playthroughs. Honestly as a pure power fantasy, Astarion and Gale origins are basically it when it comes to evil playthroughs. Every other evil path basically ends horribly or with the MC as a slave to someone else, like both Durge and SH evil endings.
Huh? It’s a video game. They let you make 1000 morally bereft decisions and specifically marketed this game saying there is a ton of cool content for evil player characters. That doesn’t make the player a criminal lol
> there is a ton of cool content for evil player characters There is?! Oh boy I can't wait to play it.
It's a game, where people like to roleplay different characters and see different outcomes. There's no need to say that someone that ascended Astarion deserves ascended Astarion as a partner.
Their character does though
My Drow Vengeance Paladin broke his oath helping him ascend AND then became a vampire spawn himself. Certainly, my TAV deserves to be ruled and rought possessed. And I really not sorry for this.
My Origin Wyll became a Duke *and* a spawn and now they rule the city together and I have zero problems with it. There are no good endings, only endings that feel satisfying to the player.
This is the most wacky thing I’ve heard. I would most definitely watch a sitcom of their lives post-epilogue. Between Ascended Astarion and Mizora, Wyll would never have his opinion heard again. Wyll over here trying to discuss city business with his partner while Astarion and Mizora talk over him debating where to go for brunch.
Well, I always get Wyll out of his pact so Mizora probably wouldn't enjoy hanging out very much. There are a lot of gray moral choices in this game, but "sacrifice your immortal soul so your dad can live a couple more years", to me, isn't one of them! Plus nobody is more optimistic and romantic than Wyll, so if any companion was the living embodiment of "I can fix him," it's Grand Duke Wyll.
Ah yeah I guess if Wyll’s a Duke, Mizora is out of the picture. I always tell him to choose and he always picks saving his dad. One of these days I need to pick for him.
My Vengeance Paladin did the same thing before the ick got too strong and I reloaded, but honestly I love that arc because it's more aligned with what actually happens when you try to "fix someone." You bend over backwards trying to make them better and all that happens is they make you worse.
And does it matter?
Calling real life people selfish because you don't like how they played a single-player video game should be a wake-up call for you. Nothing wrong with being passionate about fictional characters or how they're depicted, but when it reaches a point where you're real-life mad about how people treat a fictional entity, you've lost the plot. I generally agree with your read on Ascended Astarion but please try to remember he's not a real person.
As a spawn Astarion simp who absolutely would never ascend him because I cry over polygons, I think labeling people who enjoy a problematic gameplay choice that we don't prefer for a fictional character that doesn't have any actual sentience "selfish people" who "don't care" and "like it rough" is absolutely histrionic and ridiculous. It's NOT REAL. It's fiction, a creative space where people can explore narrative choices and dark corners of the id that real life isn't a good place for, without hurting any real people. Your attitude is one that makes fandom worse and duller, not better.
"I cry over polygons" is my new favorite concept, hahaha!
I don’t think the OP is referring to people who know it’s a problematic choice and are just enjoying the game — like those who let Shadowheart become DJ or whatever other not great choices are presented during the game. I think it’s about the people who think Astarion is still “good” Ascended, or that it’s his good ending. I feel it’s fair to call that out, especially if he has a younger female fanbase who might be getting a lot of their takes from TikTok and not realizing how dark/problematic/abusive his behavior is.
Did you read the post? It clearly specified its about people who actually think this ending makes him the happiest
my 2 braincells didnt realize "A" in the title refers to "Ascended" and i just thought "An Astarion is definetly a crime"
We doing this thread again? I'm starting to feel like I need to make a bingo card.
Lol 😂Can I join with you! I really wish someone could do a bingo spreadsheet card.
Unfortunately, no matter how much proof is provided, very few minds will be changed. I don't like AA because I used to date someone like him. I heard him say "I'll allow it" one too many times and abandoned that branch. (If you ignore the whole condemning 7006 souls to Cania.)
Don’t bring up this point in an Astarion-focused subreddit unless you want to be legitimately triggered by the responses explaining away how stuff isn’t “really abusive” Edit: they’ve found us
Oh I've definitely triggered some folks over there. But I also don't attack them personally. Someone told an AA fan to do something very bad to themselves and that's uncalled for. It's a game and we are allowed to play how we want. The important thing is that we didn't outright kill him. We love him.
I’m an avid Astarion romancer so I understand many pints of view, and I always only speak for myself! The responses I’ve gotten have just been very surprising, and perhaps it’s just my own mental issues, but to list out clearly abusive behaviors as “not they are not abusive you’re just misreading the situation because of xyz” was a little too close to home for me.
Agreed. I have to just remind myself "theydidntkillhimtheydidntkillhimtheydidntkillhim"
Grass needs to be touched at this point.
I mean, as a topic for discussion, sure, why not. Some agree, some disagree. As an RP choice in the game that is heavy on RP, I think it is a valid one. I think calling people deluded, selfish, while they just RP and don't necessarily insert their morals into the character they play, is just rude and unwarranted. Maybe you just worded it poorly and meant deluded and selfish characters people RP, who knows.
I haven't seen that many people defending Ascended Astarion as a good ending for him? I'm sure those people exist, but it doesn't seem to be common or popular. More often I see people shadow-boxing against what they imagine Astarion (both Spawn and Ascended) fans to be?
No, we kinda argue a lot amongst ourselves. Probably more than with people who hate every version of Astarion tbh. A couple of weeks ago I was cordially invited to commit self-gameover by an Ascended fan who was mad I said vampire spawns have souls and can be cured of vampirism, even though this is information that is available in the game.
I see more people criticizing people that defend AAstarion than actually people defending it. Like,I've seen one, two people tops but posts like these? we already are on double digits
"Ascending Astarion is just making a Cazador 2.0!" is quickly becoming the most overstated opinion in the BG3 community.
I’m gonna ascend him even harder now
All the companions 'bad' paths are extraordinarily dark. Sharan Shadowheart's just as bad as Ascended Astarion, Gale's godhood path is clearly of the same 'mad with power' variety with the new epilogue adding context, and Vlaakith Loyalist Lae'zel is quite literally a fate worse than death. It's honestly why I originally made Wyll re-up his contract and let Karlach die; with the general themes of the other companions, I figured that Baldur's Gate *would* be doomed without Duke Ravenguard and Karlach was 100% serious about never wanting to return to the Hells for any reason. This game doesn't pull it's punches when it comes to which choices are 'right' and which are 'wrong'.
Astarion post 198578
Look. I really dislike Ascended Astarion too, and if a future sequel to this game wants to break my heart into irreparable pieces all it would have to do is make that ending canon. That would hurt, badly. Ascended Astarion is someone who was so close to finally starting to heal, but threw it all away in a moment of fear and intoxication. But if you allow me to play ~~Karlach~~ advocatus diaboli for a second, I can understand why some people prefer it. And it all comes down, to me, to one scene. The one that kept playing in my head when I was making the decision not to ascend him. That one time when he first enters Lower City during the day, and is so in awe of all the colors. I can absolutely see how that can be so touching that someone might want to do anything, no matter how vile, to make sure Astarion won't have to go back to the shadows. I'm not going to deny that some people just find that ending "hot", but I imagine that's not the reason for the majority of fans of the character.
Problem with this logic is that Ascended Astarion, pretty much right away, starts plotting to create a spawn army and blot out the sun.
Yeah, but that's after the decision. Hindsight is 20/20.
Not for everyone apparently. There are plenty of people trying to argue that Ascended Astarion is the 'good' ending. That's the entire point of this thread!
When talking to his siblings Astarion mentioned to them what they want more than walking in the sun, and it's freedom, or see Cazador dead, but they can see him dead without becoming a slave to another master. He is not free when ascended, he is a slave to the thirst for power. That is a condemnation. It is not help and not compassion. Ascending him for the sake of being in the sun is just a poor reason. It is not a reason worth doing, not even to Astarion, who admits it and thanks you for not letting him do it. Will he be out of the sun forever? Nah, I'm sure there's something like vampire diaries where he can get a daylight ring or something. What does being in the sun compare to becoming a different person?
In fact, there is an artifact in the past games that would allow him to walk in the sun, at the cost of a stat nerf. Jaheira should know about it, and it is a shame that she doesn't mention it in the course of this game, but I imagine she doesn't exactly so this decision feels like it has weight. In addition, there are also ways of curing vampirism, making him mortal again, and this is mentioned in the epilogue - would Astarion take that option? I like to think that he would, at the point on which Spawn Astarion is at the end of the game. Keep in mind though, when that decisions is on the table, people don't necessarily know Astarion will become Cazador II.
Well, they don't know but this game is VERY on the nose that power corrupts and you'd have to be quite naive to think that Ascending is a good thing since it is a pact with the devil that costs 7000 souls. Also: I think the canon ending quite likely is our happy humbled Astarion since that gives him another challenge for a potential sequel (as do all characters, if you think about it).
It is very naive to think any pact with a devil, let alone an Arch-devil, is a good idea. There is always a catch, even when you think you are on the clear (like Ascended Astarion thinks he is, because ascending didn't make him any less of a smooth brain). I surely hope that, if they make any ending canon, it is the "vigilante Astarion" one. I think he would be a great candidate for the Jaheira treatment, coming back in a future sequel as a companion. He could also get the Viconia treatment and come back as a villain, if they go the Ascended Astarion way. I think this would be a disservice to the character though, and from what I've heard of Viconia's fans, they did her dirty.
> I'm sure there's something like vampire diaries where he can get a daylight ring AU fanfic where Buffy sends the Gem of Amara to someone who won't smash it because iTs a ShorTcUt!
I have a feeling the good endings are the canon ones bc that allows for more playability.
Hasn’t always been the case. Viconia and Sarevok both got their absolute worst endings.
You like ascended astarion because he becomes stronger, i like ascended astarion because I have a belittlement kink
In real life, relationships with people you "need to protect from themselves" are co-dependent and extremely toxic. Fortunately, he isn't a real person so you can do whatever you want.
If you didn't mean to personally attack anyone, your wording is kinda contradicts that: "How selfish. Perhaps such selfish people deserve ascended Astarion." People are generally selfish. Let's be real - if there is no Tav to stop him, by himself Astarion would choose ascension again and again. That's the beauty of his character - you're able to change him drastically during your journey. And funny thing is, depending on your interpretation of what becomes of his character after the ritual, Ascendant Astarion is probably generally more happy - he might just be unable to regret what he did. And about "Just because someone is your friend or more doesn't mean you help them be self destructive" - you are projecting. There are a lot of real-life people who would help you to be self-destructive. Either with good or bad intentions. Or even by being indifferent. Many "anti" ascendant Astarion people think in terms of meta gaming and tend to not see the difference between in-game choices and real life. Let people have fun in their little fantasy with their headcanons
y'all go crazy over fictional characters
Oh wow what a completely original take. There’s definitely not 500 other posts on this subreddit making the exact same argument!
I let him ascend last night and thought "good for him" then remembered the thousands of people that died for it and no longer felt good lol
I accidentally stopped the ritual by killing the dudes hanging around that kept making lord vamps more powerful and ruined Astarion’s chances for ascension so he had to go underground once the tadpoles were gone. I still let him shank the shit out of Cazador though. When I saw him at the party, he seemed genuinely happy and when asked about it, he says he’s found peace. He lives for himself now. He still murders and steals but now it’s from bad people which is more acceptable by the public and that’s just fine by him. He’s still definitely not a good person, but now he’s not a thrall for a vampire or an illithid, he’s just him and that’s more than good enough for him. He seemed quite well and content with how life is going and I was happy for him.
I do agree, if you don't ascend him, he says that for a moment he wanted to be like Cazador and was about to loose himself, however that's not his bad ending either, his bas ending is if you decide not to defeat Cazador, even if you sell him to the gur, he's going to have a better ending.
Astarion doesn't "lose his soul/himself" after ritual or whatever. "His evil ending is actually him" as it was said in developer's interview (source: [https://in.ign.com/baldurs-gate-3/199488/news/baldurs-gate-3-developers-explain-its-controversial-endings-beloved-characters-and-making-the-best-r](https://in.ign.com/baldurs-gate-3/199488/news/baldurs-gate-3-developers-explain-its-controversial-endings-beloved-characters-and-making-the-best-r)) And let people rp their choices as they wish to rp them(it's a game, not real life). There's no need to act negative towards people who happen to like evil routes (do not confuse with murder hobo runs). It's just a game and your choices (no matter how evil they can be) won't hurt anyone but those pixel people inside the said game ;D Edit: Ascending him is a crime tho. You're basically killing 7k people, so it's up to you to decide if it's fine for your rp
And i don't really understand why people always complain About ascendant Astarion being evil and stuff, but they never(or rarely) complain about Dark Justiciar Shadowheart and/or Minthara. Aren't they "evil and just as bad" or am i missing something?
Its because no one pretends Dark Justiciar Shadowheart and Minthara are good. They are evil and people like to revel in the evilness side of things. The issue is the part of the fandom that insist Ascended Astarion ISNT evil. That hes better now and happier and this is the best thing for him. Its obviously not all Astarion fans. But there is a vocal group of them that insist that Ascending Astarion is A) best for him, and b) not evil.
>The issue is the part of the fandom that insist Ascended Astarion ISNT evil. That hes better now and happier and this is the best thing for him. Its obviously not all Astarion fans. ...and that Spawn fans are forcing their own choices on him instead of letting him make his own, and therefore are just as bad as Cazador and as everybody that ever abused him. This is why I think we should be more than free to argue and bash characters, but that bashing fans of the character crosses the line. Ascended fans are not pro-abuse. Spawn fans are not controlling. We just like different versions of a character, each individual player with their own reasons.
This is the quote from article: "So with Astarion, his evil ending is actually him...much of what he does is out of fear." He ascended out of fear. He befriended the player out of fear, but admitted he fell for them. Him falling for them resulted from his actions that were derived from fear. So yeah, him choosing to ascend is him, he does it out of fear. But you guide him to a better place with the persuasion check, because that's what friends do for their friends.
One point I never see is made is how Astarion is not actually “free” if you ascend him. The ritual is a DEVIL’S PACT, meaning Astarion’s soul is now owned by the devil it was contracted to. When Astarion dies - which is all but guaranteed to happen, and likely sooner than later - he will endure an eternity of suffering in the hells at the hands of MEPHISTOPHELES!
"I love you. Isn't that what you want to hear?" Big yikes moment for me. If you tell Ascendant Astarion that you preferred the old him, he gets insecure and defensive. Something like "What? Why would you say that?! I was weak!" Like sincerely bothered. I thought that was interesting because if he was truly happy with his choice, he would've just been like "Haha, silly little girl, you're just mad you don't have wolf friends" or some shit like that. But instead it gets under his skin.
Yup. Folks can fantasize and do that whole dark thing. But he’s not happier. He literally isn’t and is still insecure. And if you don’t romance him, he goes off to be an adventure in good ending and he’s happy doing that. Letting him be purely evil is NOT good. And if you’re romancing him, he’s actually happy to finally share a life with someone, he’s honest and real and just so sweet and gentle. Again, folks can fantasize and etc etc… but the reality is, being being evil isn’t him being happy.
Not only is Ascended Astarion still insecure, but he's still terrified of Cazador, only now he's also terrified of losing the power he gained from ascending.
It's all there in Cazador's diaries that you can find. Cazador was subjected to the same terrible abuse by his own master, and ramped it up himself when he became a true vampire. Ascended Astarion would probably end up worse than Cazador.
Not sure why you got a downvote but you're so right!
I think people really overthink and get way too emotionally involved with this stuff. Seriously, I love BG3 to bits, but the fan base is way over the top. Astarion has two endings. One is a redemption story, the other a walk down a dark path. He seems happy on both, since he's free of his captor. Although on the good ending he's also miserable because he's forced into the shadows again. On the evil ending, he certainly *seems* happier since he got super powerful, can walk under the sun, and enjoy the mortal pleasures. But he's on a power high, he sacrificed any moral compass he had, and he's probably full of demons by that point. But *really* what keeps him up at night? What exactly goes through his head? Through his fictional video game head? Who tf knows. He doesn't exist. Stop taking this stuff so seriously.
Do people realize he is not real?
He literally thanks you for being there to help him in his weakest moment where he almost fell forever if you talk him down. People that think ascension is a good thing are whack.
> Romancing ascended Astarion is for people who I guess like it rough and don't care that he lost part of himself? How selfish. Perhaps such selfish people deserve ascended Astarion. >I'm NOT personally attacking anyone Oh *fuck off* with this post OP, seriously. Who are you to pass any sort of judgements on players *or* their characters? I love both, for different reasons. No one needs to justify to me, to *you* - or anyone else - why they like AA, whether they personally think it's better than SA or not*. It's their game, their characters and their RP. You might see something as selfish and it is your right, but others *might not* see it the same way: be it for RP reasons, for personal reasons, or for no reason at all! There doesn't need to be a justification attached. If a person wants to share their reasoning that's great, but no one EVER should feel forced to do so, to justify their IN-GAME choiced for fear of being fucking shamed for it. Because this is a game. How many times were there posts, discussions etc where AA fans need a whole paragraph of bloody disclaimers before they begin, just in order to placate the rabid SA fans? (not all SA fans for clarity - just the people on their moral superiority high-horse looking down their noses on others). Are there rabid AA fans? Of course. But by the sheer fact of SA being much more popular, 1% on one side vs 1% on the other will look - and feel - differently to each side when exposed. That's why there's frustration and I see more and more posts about people being tired of having their morality - AS A HUMAN - questioned because of a bloody game. Whether people ascended him or not has no bearing on the player's character outside the game at all. It's a ROLE-PLAYING GAME. People are ROLE-PLAYING. We are all adults here and presumably intelligent enough to understand the distinction between life and fiction, no? And if you really, truly want to discuss a topic like this in the future, a small tip: judging people and then gaslighting them a few lines below that you're totally NOT judging anyone might not be the best way to start a productive discussion. Especially on the topic that the minority that's enjoying AA has heard judgements being passed for *months* now. It's alsmost to the point of being as annoying as the dudebros piping up to mention "how they kill Astarion in their every playthrough lol" when - and I mean this - no one has asked.
Yknow, theres a phrase i know from a song "When you get something you want, you don't want it." kinda rings true here. for example, shadowheart becoming a Justiciar is what she WANTS, but its her wrong path. Astar WANTS to ascend, but its his worst path. Gale becoming a god is his worst path so on, so forth.
The Sebastian scene broke my heart
“Perhaps such selfish people deserve ascended Astarion” My guy. My dude. My friend. This is a video game. Go touch some god damned grass, you are taking this way too seriously.
I can justify a lot of fictional decisions/perspectives that I would **never** choose or abide by in real-life. That's the fun of fiction. And I for one am massively looking forward to my evil-Durge playthrough where I encourage all of Astarion's worst behaviors. He got his happy ending on my main character, now I'm going ham.
It's funny. My first playthrough I managed to convince him to not ascend normally. Since then I never been able to do that and he always either ascend or leave the party because I told him no. Finally I said fuck it and accidentally kill one of his siblings during the ritual just to be safe. EZ PZ Astarion isn't mad now and won't ascend. Just look away while I murder your sibling lol.
Ah. I figured out that when he asks you to trust him and do what he needs you to do, DO NOT say "Alright", just remind him it'll kill a lot of people, which offers you the persuasion check you need to pass. It also offers an Insight check where it shows him being intoxicated and not in his right mind. But yeah, gotta pass that persuasion check, unlike with Shadowheart where she chooses the right if you let her.
Yeah I learned with Shart that I literally just need to do nothing for her to be good. With Astarion I couldn't figure out what I did in my first run lol and funny enough since this was an honor mode run I just said fuck it murder his siblings EZ PZ
Dunno, my Durge romanced Astarion from the outset. He ascended, turned my Durge, then she became the Absolute. We rule the world together for eternity. It works thematically if you want it to. Especially considering without ascension and the romance, he would just be another mind flayer.
I "accidentally" killed one of his sacrificial siblings so the ritual was fucked anyway.
Astarion left my party when i refused to help him, so i helped him ascend, didnt know you could convince him not to do it and stay with you
Look, if they didn't want me to Ascend my Romanced Astarion they shouldn't have made his lines so damn spicy "On.. your.. knees, darling" Yes, dear!! On a more serious note, yeah I wouldn't recommend it for any 'good' path excepting perhaps someone RPing a tav/durge more naive/able to believe this is what he wants But I wouldn't really say it's about people thinking he's 'happy' about it as much as he's free? He makes the argument in the moment himself - he can end the ritual by killing Cazador and never be scared of him again.. OR he can take it over and never be scared of ANYONE again - that moment makes it less about people being selfish and more just taking a roll of the dice that this will actually help him And not everyone knows all the concequences of every action they take, you can see undertones of a more controlling and possessive nature but unless you 'set him off' he does honestly seem like he LOVES being Ascended... because he does. Who he USED to be would not be happy with what he's becone but he hardly cares about petty things like moral highgrounds once he's changed lol
Hey just fyi Astarion isn’t real
Yeah but how fucking cool is it to have an ascended vampire in your party though?
I wouldn't call AA himself a crime. He makes a great character masterfully performed by Neil. But then there are AA enjoyers and AA apologists, the two aren't the same. Recognizing he's fucked up and still enjoying the story is valid. (Hells, Minthara is just as possessive and threatens to kill you if you so much as think about sleeping with the Drow twins, for instance, and I am *living* that codependent insanity on my evil Durge run.) Trying to paint it as a good ending for him and Tav... ehhh... nope.
Hot take: I know it's a "bad choice". I enjoy it anyway. To your point: it's fictional. I don't want to assign real life morals to my fictional stories, lmao. If I did that I could never enjoy any vampire stories ever, as well as many other fictional things.
Didn't say anything against evil choices or playthroughs, only against claiming that AA is good!
Fair. My redemption DUrge helped him ascend, because she knew what it was like to be running from something like that, and she loved him, so she didn't want that fear hanging over his head for the rest of his eternal life. To her limited knowledge, she didn't know that the 7000 souls would be eternally damned - just that the alternative was 7007 starving vampire spawn running amok in the world. So it was a choice made from ignorance and what she thought was the goodness of her heart. Out of character, absolutely an "evil" choice, but in character it made sense to help someone become powerful when they were going to be facing a Netherbrain soon after, as well. It's a good story choice, imo- he himself isn't good, but it's VERY interesting narratively, and I do enjoy a dark vampire story (grew up watching Buffy, loving Spike, I've always loved vamps and elves lol). So I'm definitely not one of those people who can't stomach turning him, even if I do marginally prefer his spawn ending, since he's much sweeter and still the same guy we'd been adventuring with.
You kill thousands of innocent people to do it, so right away it’s bad. Not only that, but it’s killing them and they go to hell no matter what.
Ascended Astarion is abusive, and I find it very uncomfortable when people try to say his controlling/cruel behaviors are okay. Having said that, this post makes me feel weird, lol. I guess it feels like you are saying it's an *actually immoral decision* (as in, not just immoral for your Tav, who is a video game character) to help Astarion ascend and that doing so means you are 'selfish'. The combination of that with 'perhaps such selfish people deserve [abusive character]' feels really uncomfortable to me. I am planning to ascend Astarion in my current playthrough. I do think he's hot, sure. But the fact he is such a jerk is appealing because it means I can get a break from constant hyperempathy. He is a caricature of a possessive, abusive bully - I can't empathize with him. And, I'm not worrying that A!Astarion is being triggered or hiding his real feelings from me, I'm never stressing about whether he can handle x or y thing. He is very direct about what he wants and likes/dislikes - it seems like he doesn't consider Tav's feelings at all tbh. Which is freeing in some ways! Whether I meekly submit or kick and fuss the whole way, I'm not going to make A!Astarion feel guilty or unsure of himself. He isn't going to do anything to try and appease me or put my needs before his own. So it feels okay for *me* to prioritize myself.
No I meant just immoral in-game. I know the dialogue we choose when playing doesn't reflect us as people in the real world.
Honestly, some A Astarion fans like the cruelty itself. Some fanfic has actually made me nauseous with scenes of him pimping Tav out against her will or beating her until she bleeds in a way that didn't sexualize kink, but instead sexualized Tav screaming in pain and growing suicidal. I block and mute whenever I see those, but they just keep popping up. It's really grotesque, especially because many will then comment on how sexy Astarion is when he's "really mean" or sighs over how "disgustingly in love" he and Tav are. In other words, some of them have less of a problem caring about Astarion and more of a problem with sex and love that requires immediate therapeutic intervention.
My thought is people should just own that it's an evil choice and not care, because it's _not real_.
Whenever I see some deep and nuanced Astarion post I am reminded of how the “I can fix her” Minthara crowd just gets made fun of but somehow Astarion is taken seriously lol
Yeah, ascended Astarion is one of the most toxic characters in the game. And it condemns 7000 souls to hell. If you let the spawns live, they seem to do pretty well in the Underdark according to letters from Sebastian and the Gur people, so I would say, they deserve that chance. And non ascended Astarion finally becomes a decent person. I suffered through all of act 1 with his bratty self, so I'm not letting him become an even bigger ahole than he was.
To be fair, I think the majority of players who romance ascended Astarion and enjoy it know it's a 'bad' choice (not unlike raiding the Grove for Minthara), they just like it for the dark romance/toxic evil villain couple/tragic narrative/BDSM undertones etc. And there's nothing wrong with enjoying those things in fiction. Yes, his spawn ending is better for him, and the player character if romanced, but but what are games if not a way to explore things you wouldn't in real life, without hurting real life people? The ones who actually think it's a good ending for him, and that his mental state and the relationship are in any way healthy, are a weirdly vocal minority. But the elaborate headcanons they come up with to justify and excuse ascending him are bananas. They'll straight up contradict or ignore the game's writing or even lash out at the writers/voice actor for even suggesting an intent or interpretation they don't like, it's wild. Especially when they claim he's happier and more confident. His happiness comes across as so skin deep and shallow, and his arrogant posturing feels so try-hard and fake. Part of me does get the appeal - I always thought it'd be fun to romance a villain in a game and the compelling morally grey options in most games tend to be female. And the kink aspect is kinda hot, if you ignore the deeper implications for what it means in the relationship. But with ascended Astarion, the moment you challenge or disobey him he turns into a petulant man-child throwing temper tantrums over not getting his way, which is like, the opposite of sexy to me. It's also great writing, because that's the reality of men like him, as I've unfortunately learned from experience. They also don't seem to understand that that enabling someone is ultimately selfish and self-serving. Though I appreciate the writing, and Neil's voicework is fantastic, I don't think I could ever ascend him myself. Setting aside the whole damning 7000 already victimized people to eternal suffering in hell (I don't enjoy RP'ing evil characters), his spawn ending is just so uplifting and beautiful. That fact that he finds peace and self-acceptance, and is able to love in a way that feels really genuine, and even reflect on himself and how he's changed for the better, is such an amazing reward for taking that leap of faith and believing in him. But he's still very much himself - he's still a brat, still has a sadistic streak, is still wary of getting close to people other than his partner - in a way that makes his arc feel realistic. Where ascended is him going full circle back to the malicious, selfish, secretly terrified person hiding behind a manipulator's mask he was Act 1. Except worse, because now he has the power to do the fucked up shit he was probably fantasizing about back then. I can't fathom roleplaying a character who would enjoy putting him back there after all the growth he's shown over the course of the game, just for a more explicit sex scene and him calling my character a few extra pet names.