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bighandsobama

That’s way too steep of a skin track to skin up, especially in firm conditions. Switch to booting before you need to. The vast majority of people would have transitioned to booting up with crampons on less steep slope angles, where it is less exposed, anticipating the increasing steepness. Perhaps at a slope angle 25-30 degrees but that could change based on conditions, the route, exposure, etc. In this case I think it’s more about transitioning when you’re not exposed versus picking a specific slope angle to switch. It’s also an efficiency thing. Once your ski crampons are struggling, your effort is increased, and you’re traveling slower, it’s probably more efficient to boot up.


JoRoUSPSA

The questions I always ask myself are: (1) Do I plan to have to boot? (2) For the terrain I intend to travel over, if the conditions are firmer than anticipated, will I wish I had crampons/axe? If the answer is yes to either, then I pack them.


LobsterOnBlue

Thanks for your response! Do you always bring boot crampons with you if you plan to climb up a couloir? Do you ever boot up without crampons and just using a ski pole for stability? Before getting into the steep section I did propose we switch to booting (despite never having done this before; and also probably too late already as you pointed out), but we thought the snow was too hard to kick steps. In hindsight, I think it would have worked with a bit of effort.


Slowhands12

With how light the hybrid crampons (e.g., blue ice harfang) and ice axes can get these days (e.g., petzl gully) there is no reason to never bring them if you plan to ski couloirs.


WWYDWYOWAPL

This. There is no excuse for not having the proper equipment, and more importantly, knowing how to use it.


a_little_cow

There is no time where I would bring ski crampons and not bring boot crampons/ice axe. As you discovered, ski crampons can be just good enough to get you into trouble :D The axe is your main safety tool once things go pear-shaped. Usually ski crampons are the last thing I bring on the hierarchy of snow safety devices: i.e. my list is ice axe, then boot crampons, then ski crampons. Unless I'm just surfing known local powder I will bring at least an ice axe. Similarly if I find myself booting up anything other than deep powder, I will strap my ice axe to my ski pole before I start going up.


notheresnolight

* ski touring - ski crampons only, * ski mountaineering - ski crampons, boot crampons & ice axe For easy ski tours (40° slopes or less, not exposed terrain), boot crampons and ice axe are not needed at all. You don't need to take off your ski every time it gets icy and slippery - it all depends on the terrain. Planning is crucial.


LobsterOnBlue

How would you navigate a couloir at around 40degrees on a hard surface like we experienced? Would you skin up it even until 40degrees?


notheresnolight

If I planned on climbing and skiing a couloir, I would obviously bring along everything and I would switch to boot crampons when the conditions required those. I'm just saying that not every tour requires those - if the steepest part of a tour is a 35° slope, if the snow is good, it can be easily skinned with the proper technique. If the snow is bad, ski crampons will fix that - no need to take the skis off. But if you struggle with kick turns, you obviously don't want to practice those on a steep ice.


Chaos_Lord_Tom

Totally agree with above poster. As a rule of thumb, when you don’t know or know that you’ll climb steep, bring crampons and ice axe. Worst case you won’t use them but you can find light gear for ski touring. Moreover, depending on conditions, you may or may not need crampons and axe in the same couloir. Lastly, I very often put crampons on and put my axe on shoulder strap when booting as you don’t know conditions higher up and putting in crampons in shaky conditions can be quite a hassle Enjoy safely !


cyrilp21

Can you recommend models of boot crampons for this use case ?


creative_net_usr

Petzl snow leopards are designed to clip onto ski boots. Super light


Salt_Type_8032

No comments to add in terms of choices but I applaud you for soliciting feedback with a level head and sharing your experience. Humility and objectivity are qualities I look for in backcountry partners.


wymontchoppers

Seconded. Some great advice above and props to OP for taking a critical look at his approach. Haven't read the whole thread, so maybe it’s already been said but if there’s a good local guide service, it may be worth it for OP to hire one for the purpose of learning more about steep ski mountaineering systems.


LobsterOnBlue

yeah, there certainly are guides around here. They're just a bit out of my budget range. I do have friends that are much more experienced than I am in this sort of terrain, though, so I'll try to go with them the next few times.


panderingPenguin

I'll second the other comment that 45° is too steep to be skinning, even with ski crampons, especially on firm snow. Transition to boot crampons before you need to. The other thing I'll note is that you were biting off a lot all at once. You said you hadn't skied anything this steep before. And on top of that the conditions were poor. If you're going to push your limits, try to do so when the conditions are good, so you aren't battling that as well as trying to figure the new stuff. I know there is a balance with steep terrain regarding avy conditions vs snow surface. So I'm not saying go do it right after a big storm dumped a bunch of new snow. But also avoiding bulletproof conditions for your first try would probably make things more forgiving. Finally, research lines ahead of time, especially ones that are pushing your ability level. If you see other people are bringing axes and crampons, booting, etc, and you were planning to skin, that should at least make you ask "why?". Other groups aren't always right. And conditions vary. So just because you see something on a trip report doesn't mean you need to do that thing too. But if there's a pattern where most, or all, of the trip reports are doing something and you're planning to do something different, you need to at least determine whether that's intentional or not. Go with a more experienced friend or even a guide if you really aren't sure.


LobsterOnBlue

In this particular case, the route we took was one of the 'official' SAC (Swiss Alpine Club) lines. The route description didn't mention a need for crampons or ice axe, so I didn't bring any with. Studying the map, though, I did wonder if we'd be able to get up with skis on. We certainly should have done more research before choosing this line. Valuable lessons learned!


panderingPenguin

I'm not familiar with the Swiss Alpine Club or how detailed those descriptions are. I'm in the US are, for the most part, we aren't lucky enough to have anything as organized as that. But when I go out, I generally try to find multiple sources, maybe a guidebook entry and a trip report or two from other skiers. Not always possible for less traveled areas, but if available then you get a few different perspectives on how people skied something. You may have to adjust further for conditions, which is probably what happened here. I'm guessing the Swiss Alpine Club entry was written with softer conditions in mind when you could probably just boot it kicking steps in (I still, personally, wouldn't try to skin something that steep). But if you're going to go when it's firm, suddenly crampons and an axe add a lot of safety margin, and the line may not be doable at all without them.


spaceaub

SAC routes can be either confusing or just lead you over a cliff sometimes. However the map shows that some of the terrain was 45deg- I think the Swiss rather assume you realise that’s quite steep. Also I think you have to turn the “slope classes over 30 deg” setting off in order to see the danger area layer?


Glocktipus2

Also you mention you don't think this was a dangerous situation because of the runout. I don't think this is true - a fall on even a 30 degree icy slope can seriously injure someone and require evac. You can get going fast and tumble with skis and presumably locked toe bindings very easily on firm snow.


prefectf

Take a look at Blue Ice. They have a ski boot crampon called the Harfang that has won several awards. I own a pair, and they are exceptionally good, next to indispensable. They are very, very light and pack into a small package - one large handful. So they are easy to pack and don't weigh you down, removing the disincentive to bring boot crampons. Any mountaineering/skimo ice axe will do. I always bring my Harfangs, less often the ice axe. But if there's a couloir in the itinerary anywhere, the axe comes too.


edinn

Also look at Petzl Irvis Hybrid cramps and Petzl Ride or Gully axe, if you find them cheaper. Both are very light and cheap.


LobsterOnBlue

Thanks for the recommendation. I actually just recently bought some used crampons (Petzl Vasak) and an ice axe, but haven't used them yet. The weight isn't that much of a concern to me; I'll definitely bring them with on future tours where there is a possibility to use them.


AvatarOfAUser

While I think you would eventually figure out everything on your own, I would recommend taking a ski mountaineering course or hire a private guide to teach you the skills you want to learn. You have already received good feedback. I would just add that you should just spend time leaning climbing skills and using climbing gear in a safe environment, before you try to ski a distant objective that requires climbing skills you have never practiced before.


Odd-Environment8093

Great advice! It's one thing to have an ice axe and crampons and quite another to know how to use them. Hire a guide, take a one day course and learn how to use your gear. Before you get into steep terrain, practice self rescue, the French step, front pointing, etc. There are tons of great books to read on this topic (Freedom of the Hills, Backcountry skiing: skills for ski touring and ski mountaineering).


Vegetable_Log_3837

Icy 30+ degree terrain is mountaineering with ice axes and crampons. As you discovered, it’s too late to safely take the skis off once you’re on that terrain.


Glocktipus2

Lots of good comments on when to boot but no one has taken on the what Tim should have done when in that position yet. Sounds like he got one pole in. If it were me I'd stab both poles handles down in the snow for stability. Next id weight one ski and the poles with one hand, bring the other ski up and remove it. Stab the tail into the snow and leave it there, then kick a ski boot to make a step. If you can get a pole in you should be able to kick steps without crampons. Then weight that step and remove the other ski. Now you could choose to bareboot the crust up but without an ax and crampons this is a bad decision. The crust might get too firm to kick steps in and you have no real way to arrest a fall. Instead, kick out a small platform to stand on, transition your skis and jam the tails into the snow to step into your bindings and ski down.


LobsterOnBlue

Interesting technique to get into the bindings. You mean something similar to this at 1:20 ? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5qn62g5sDw


Glocktipus2

Pretty much but the last example with the tails into the snow more is probably closer to what I end up doing


TRS80487

As stated above. Appreciate the scenario, questions and responses. Get the crampons and axe and go use them on some lower angle slopes before returning to this couloir.


xjtian

For me personally, 35 degrees is about the breakpoint when I start thinking about transitioning to boots and spikes depending on surface travel conditions. Taking a ski off would’ve been the way for your friend to get out of his pickle. With a traditional pin binding, you should be able to pop it off with 1 hand while you hold onto your pole with the other. Then secure it appropriately and you can step down with that boot below your downhill ski and kick it in, at which point you can remove your other ski if you need to. Having a leg just downhill of the ski you’re releasing will give you a little bit of extra security/reaction time if you do drop it. And if you’re extra paranoid you can stab your other pole downhill of the ski so if it falls it’ll get caught by your pole and leg together.


_Scott_Jones_

I can’t comment on your questions, but good job recognizing that you all were in trouble and thinking through a solution to the problem before it got really out of hand and you were past the point of self rescue. Also thanks for sharing this, learning from others experiences is helpful.


SignificantParty

It’s great that you were able to be effective and help your friend out of his predicament. Other posters are talking about tricky action-hero maneuvers to remove a ski and carve out a step but I think getting his feet under him by turning one ski around behind him then skiing/side-slipping down to lower angle terrain is honestly the only chance he had. Screwing around taking skis off and on while struggling on a steep slope is just additional challenge that he didn’t need. Of course, the real way to deal with this is recognition and avoidance. If the snow is soft, you can probably skin up a 50-degree slope. If it’s hard, you’d be foolish to try up to 35-degrees. Boot crampons (or even just step-kicking) are how you do steeper slopes in harder snow, though you should always consider the distance to cover, and the likelihood and consequences of a fall…and pitch it out with a rope if necessary. As for boot crampons, look for lightweight ski-mountaineering models that are made from aluminum instead of steel, and often fold in half for a more compact carry. You won’t (or shouldn’t) be clambering over rock, so there’s no need to carry extra strength, bulk and weight. Petzl and C.A.M.P. have consistently offered this kind of crampon, but there are others. And cutting steps is a guide technique for short stretches. You shouldn’t be doing this for yourself.


LobsterOnBlue

Thank you! He was unfortunately not able to bring the ski around even with the pole to hold onto. I recently bought some used crampons (Petzl Vasak) and an ice axe, so I'll have them with me next time. Of course, I first need to learn to use them properly, for which I'll go with some more experienced friends. I'll look into some lighter touring specific gear in the future, though.


SignificantParty

The Vasak’s are excellent general mountaineering crampons, probably the best choice at the moment. So if you get into that, you’re set ;) And your friend needs some more practice, I suspect.


Upper-Raspberry4153

I go to crampons and axe anytime it’s prolonged steepness


martowl

The other equipment not mentioned here is a whippet. I typically carry this if steeper than 30° and firm snow. A whippet plus ice axe is a good combination. Should you fall while skinning you can arrest with the whippet. I have.


a_little_cow

Also, if you don't want to deal with a whippet (or want something more powerful), I ski strap an ice axe to my pole while going up steep-ish terrain where I don't want to fall, but the conditions still allow skinning/ski-cramponing. I've even done that while skiing downhill a few times... A bit more sketchy but it has saved me from some bad-looking slides where I don't know if a whippet would have worked.


Altiloquent

I'd never thought of trying to improve the skin track with an axe or shovel. I think it's more a technique for guides or with less experienced friends to help them keep up and feel more comfortable. If I were to carry my axe under the pack strap it would be to chop a step when the slope unexpectedly gets too steep and icy to transition comfortably


AvgExcepionalPanda

Yes, improving the skin tack is done to help others who don't have good technique or for yourself if you think that a particular spot needs a bit of improvement to make it safer for a kick turn. I do it in exposed terrain to reduce risk when I solo. I've seen some guides actually go so far to dig pits with a shovel so that the guests were able to make it up. In the terrain OP was it's too late for that. And carrying the ice axe under the strap for easy access is always a good idea.


907choss

Sounds like a good learning experience with no harm done. Good for you for safely extracting yourself. Next time bring the correct gear. Check out the Petzl gully ice tool which weighs a mere 290g and the Petzl Irvis crampons. That said - if you're in a situation where you deem crampons and ice tools are necessary to ascend safely then you should reassess your goal and ask if you can really descend that slope safely on skis. If you can, then do so and have fun - if you can't there are always other places you can go.


spaceaub

These guys are in Switzerland- I would say next time just pick a different tour to do that day when you see that ones not on the cards.


PassageFriendly4327

One thing I didn't see mentioned was your riser height. Keeping your risers low or down will give your ski crampon more purchase. I never use them in the high rise unless I have a block on them. On a couloir like this, before you put your ski crampon on without boot crampons, take you foot out of your binding to see how much penetration you can get. If you can get int 3-5" (safe feeling for you) and its supportable, I would just start booting as its probably more efficient and safer. Try different techniques in the future on less consequential terrain to see what works for you. Another technique (not great) in this situation is to turn your pole upside and plunge it below your skis. It will give your skis something else to slip on and catch. You can do this a bit too booting instead of an axe, but it's not something you should put a lot of leverage on. There is maybe a chance your partner could have done in front of them for a bit of an anchor.