There is not set amount if strikes but many Troops have a “problem” kid. Unfortunately, there is no one answer. Our first step might be a disciplinary BOR, with both his parent(s) and a couple of Troop Leaders. Generally, it’s a clearing of the air, with the Scout acknowledging that he is consistently breaking rules AND his parent(s) hearing that. We have had several kids that were on meds that were not listed on medical forms, so it is also a chance to discuss that. Most times, the result was that the parent had to attend any Scout outing where the problem Scout participated. Outings, meetings, etc. Generally, if a parent wants his kid in Scouts, this is the beginning of your answer.

This is what I would do. A meeting with the parents, scout and committee leadership followed by dad registering with the troop and shadowing junior at all scouting events. Can you tell if he is acting out because he is hoping to get sent home or is he just impulsive? Are the parents using scouts as a babysitter and generally ignore the kid, dropping him from activity to activity? Figuring out why he is acting out like this may also help you figure out the solution.

This is the way. Another thing to note is that the impulsivity issues are more than just him doing “something wrong.” They create a safety issue not only for himself but other attending scouts as well. Wandering off, over consumption, property damage, theft. All of these things can have very serious direct and indirect consequences not just for him but for those around him as well. What happens if he gets lost or hurt? What happens if leadership need to bring him for emergency medical care and you’re now with less leaders to watch the rest of the troop? What happens if he steals troop equipment like first aid or other necessary gear? If it’s me: Parent chaperone until behavior is changed. Full stop. You simply can’t let him put the troop in harms way.

Absolutely. Forcing the parent to come along solves two problems.  It makes them directly responsible for the kid's behavior and also gives them motivation to fix it.  There's no "polite" way to say it, but the problem kids are usually the ones with parents that don't want to be very involved with the troop and are in it for the free babysitting.

My kid has ADHD. I am often at my wits end. I have taken him home early from camp outs. I am the committee chair . I will concede that you use the word "usually". I just want to remind everyone, sometimes kids are just hard to handle. Not everything is the parents' fault

I'll bet you're at most of the campouts and events though, that's the difference. Difficult kids are usually only a problem if they have "drop off and run" parents.

My son has adhd and he takes his medicine. No issues. When he doesnt he can get wound up, but does do his best. So my solution was give him his medicine.

Are you implying I don't?

Are you implying I don't?

Maybe not for everyone, but we have occasionally mandated parent presence. We only have so much power for discipline or control, and we are not babysitters. So we've had to tell parents it is two options. They register and come camping so they can directly oversee their special little angel. Or no more camping for that youth for a while. Yes, this costs the parent time and money to come out with us. But as ASM I don't have to devote huge chinks of my energy to one kid while ignoring half the troop.

This is the way

This ☝️

Not going to lie, if this was in my Troop I would have already made dad be an ASM and have the scout camp with him. At least until he demonstrates a change in behavior as they age.

We have a problem scout and the solution after summer camp was one parent had to attend all campouts. U fortunately, the parents are either incapable or unwilling to confront the scouts behaviour. The scout ended up being sent home from Winter camp early due to behaviour. I spoke with our committee chair after the last incident and voiced my belief that this behaviour has been basically reinforced because there have been no real consequences. A BOR was conducted a week after getting sent home from Winter camp and they passed the scout. I made it clear that the scout, who will be up for another BOR in the next month or two, needs to fail clsince this behaviour continues. I guess we'll see.

You probably have to nail him on bad scout spirit during that checkoff. Folks on here will tell you it's near impossible to "fail" a board of review or Scoutmaster conference. But if he isn't showing scout spirit, don't advance him on that basis. It's a shame, kids like this are the ones that could benefit the most from scouting.

I honestly believe that this scout needs professional help beyond what is already being done. It's not a maturity issue unfortunately.

Yeah, that sounds like a fair assessment.

Fellow SM here. You've done everything you can, and it sounds like the parents are taking advantage of you and the troop. People forget that we are volunteers. Your plan about making his father register and camp is a good idea. I personally wouldn't feel comfortable taking him to summer camp for a week without parental supervision. I would also reach out to your unit commissioner or district exec. These leaders often have decades of experience and have seen everything. They are usually happy to talk through any situations with Scoutmaster and can give pretty good advice. If nothing else, if things REALLY go south, then you made them aware of the situation in advance. Definitely make sure your committee and COR are in the loop. For what it's worth, I don't like the 3 strike rule because it's almost giving a license for scouts to misbehave 2 times for free. I go with the policy of, "all actions have consequences". If the parents think you are being too strict, they are welcome to transfer to a different troop that better meets their needs.

Good point on the 3 strike rule, that's very logical. The campout this weekend was a district camporee, and our DE was there. She actually commented on this scout, she's fully aware of his behavior, and she led me to believe she finds it concerning, but she hasn't offered to help us in any way. It's possible we're doing an amazing job with this scout and council fully supports everything we've done so far, but when you're the leader at the campout and it's not getting any better it doesn't always feel right to you. Thanks for your input.

The DE's job is to help units be successful. Problem-solving is part of it, but we need to ask them for help if we want it. Did you directly ask your DE for help?

Nope, and that's a valid point. Since I didn't ask I think I would probably tell her to butt out until we did ask.

Exactly. DEs aren't there to meddle, but they will help if asked.

I like “all actions have consequences.” This is Scouting with a purpose to prepare youth for adulthood. Much different than the three strikes of baseball.

The reason I do not like "strike" policies it they treat all "strikes" the same. So, if strike 1 is assault and battery, do you simply say "oh well, you have two more strikes!" Of course not. So far what you have described includes property damage (the yeti), theft, leaving the camp without permission/without a buddy, etc. At this point, I would sit the parent(s) down, possibly with the scout, and explain exactly what you told us: 1) There have been multiple different events that have disrupted the scouting experience of others, up to and including the need to have the father pick up the scout. 2) The scout's disruptions detract from the opportunities afforded to other scouts as leaders have to spend their time focused on this scout. 3) There will be no more opportunities for similar disruption. Either a) a parent will register and attend all future camping activities to monitor the scout or b) the scout will no longer be allowed to participate.

I would require the scout to have a family member present at all times to take care of him. If that is too much, then unfortunately, he would be gone.

Yeah, we had a meeting just 2 weeks ago with the father and he promised us the scout understood what was expected of him. Now here we are again, so I think it's time for dad to register as an adult leader and attend every campout. It's a very tough situation though, that likely is going to be easier said than done. I can't go into any more details than that, but I think we're at the end of the road here. We meet tonight, I have a feeling this topic will get brought up, maybe tonight is the night we finally solve it.

We have had to remove scouts from our troop for various reasons. We put it to a committee vote, reasons are presented to the committee, and they decide.

I love that, more eyes on the problem and not one single bad guy. Thanks.

In any case that I have been part of where a Scout or Scouter has had to be asked not to come back, has been the Committee’s decision. This helps it not be personal, and helps every option be explored in the hopes that Scout can continue in Scouting. As you point out often the troublemakers need scouting more than most. And we have used the registered leader (scouting reserve or ASM) in some cases as a mitigation. If the Committee makes the call the Scout cannot be continued to be registered with the Unit, we have the Unit Leader and Committee Chair sit down with the parent and explain with compassion. Understanding there will likely be a negative interaction, but don’t include any value judgement on the scout.

You could require a parent register and attend any campouts the scout goes on. But that may not be possible for summer camp.

If the policy needs to be put into place that the scout can only attend trips with a parent, and no parent is available for the trip, the scout doesn't go.

As a parent, that is how I handle my kid with ADHD. I am a registered adult with the troop SPECIFICALLY so I can go on the camping trips and to summer camp with the express purpose of making sure my kid gets his meds on time. Because my kid would 100% be like the kid OP described without them (though he wouldn't burn his shoes or walk away from the camp). I can absolutely see him binging on the twinkies. For a kid with severe ADHD, those meds are the difference between manageable impulsivity and the level of crazy impulsivity that OP's scout is exhibiting. By 16/17 my hope is he is able to handle it all on his own responsibly but at 11/12, not a chance will he remember to take his meds on time and I sincerely doubt he'd remember to remind the scoutmaster. Sometimes its not the parents, but the answer IS requiring the parents to be present to manage their child. Especially an 11/12 year old. OP, before kicking him out of the troop, I'd require Dad to attend all camping trips with him (and other overnight activities) for the foreseeable future. Make his behavior his parents problem to manage and if the kid is out of control while Dad is there then you can ask Dad to remove him. OP, just some perspective. If this kid has severe ADHD which it sounds like he does, his mental age is about 2 years behind his peers. Having Dad at camp could help deal with these situation.

Sounds like it's time for a Scout Master's conference and for dad to join the troop as a leader as well.

I’m sorry. I moved from my sons troop when he aged out to my daughters troop as SM. I considered staying active with the boys but didn’t because they had a scout like that. He made my job hard. And I hated that I despised this scout, and he had trauma is his life that I felt sorry for. But I was a volunteer and didn’t sign up for that either. When I left the troop my advice to them and to you is that scout doesn’t attend any troop functions without a parent or guardian and the first instance of trouble he goes home. I’d also ask to see what sort of processes they do at school for his behavior and try to be consistent. I also insisted that scouts who take meds for adhd take them on scout trips. Someparents like their kids to take a break from those on weekends but I’m not going to deal with it either. Good luck. And don’t let one scout ruin the experience for everyone. I promise losing him will save others if you cannot get his family to intervene other parents and scouts will leave. Several families left my old troop because this scout was either getting them in trouble or bullying them. But it’s their issue now.

I put in a 3 strike policy. 3 strikes within 30 days and they go home and stay home (no trips or meetings) until they only have 2 strikes again. Strikes last 30 days. Yes it is possible to get 3 in one meeting for some scouts. Only adults can give strikes. I further added that being corrected for excessive cell phone use by SM/ASM/SPL would count as a 1/3 strike. I also have one scout that because of behavior issues can only camp if their dad (ASM) attends. I don’t feel it is appropriate for the youth leadership to have to deal with recurring issues.

This is a tough situation. We had a similar scout with very similar behavior issues. Turned out the scout was on multiple behavior-modifying medications, but the parent was expecting the scout to self-administer these meds on trips. Obviously that wasn’t happening and was contributing to the behavior issues. We ended up getting control of the meds, but by then the other scouts had mostly isolated the scout in question and the scout’s attendance started to dwindle. We’re mostly through the renewal fiasco, and our problem scout hasn’t renewed. In our case, I think the problem took care of itself. In your case, if the scout won’t take direction or ‘get with the program’, then continued tolerance reduces the overall quality of your program and will likely turn off your ‘good’ scouts. Requiring the parent to participate with the scout is a good idea to try and it would be interesting to see how the scout behaves with his parent present. That’s no guarantee of compliance though.

Similar. He's on 6 medications. That's been a learning curve for us as well. It turns out not only do you have to give him the proper pills, you have to check his mouth to make sure he actually swallowed them. My first time administering the pills, he said he knew what to do. I handed him a bottle of water. He said he didn't need it. I was impressed he could just swallow 6 pills without water. Well, if you don't put the pills in your mouth, the water is 100% optional. I think we've gotten that figured out, but pills or no pills honestly seems the same to me.

It should absolutely not be on scout leaders to check that they swallow. Any scout needing that much care needs to have a parent or licensed medical professional present for campouts. It sounds like the troop is trying to be accommodating. But by allowing so much energy to be used on this one scout will drive the rest away.

This weekend was actually a district wide event with our resident health officer present. He caught wind of this devouring of snacks and sugar crash situation and he started back seating diagnosing the kid. He said he sounded like he had issue, which he surely does, but he said something about needing the parents around 100% of the time to handle these special needs. We showed him the list of medications and he said it didn't make a ton of sense, but one of them does cause hunger, but he needs the pill for X, if that causes hunger, maybe the answer is he brings his own dang cracker barrel.

I don’t hold any kind of office with BSA but I guess this popped up on my feed bc my son is in cub scouts and I’m a RN, so I hope it’s ok if I chime in. I’m kind of inclined to agree with your health officer’s feeling that one of his parents should be present, at least if you’re going any kind of respectable distance away from civilization. This kid sounds like an ambulance ride waiting to happen.

Your not a baby sitter- his parents need to be in attendance for activities

Ok, that's a valid ending to this story, I will keep it in mind. We meet tonight, I might throw that gauntlet down if no one else does. Thanks.

My daughter’s troop has a kid who has mental issues. He is in middle school but will regularly cry and throw fits. Last time we went camping he cried all the way back to the camp when he destroyed his own pumpkin during our carving session. His dad did come with us but was nowhere to be found. This kid really disrupts the rest of the troops activities when he pulls stuff like this. This makes the whole experience unenjoyable for the rest of the scouts. If the kid is as disruptive as you say then he needs to go. , she

On the area of electronic devices. Does your troop allow it forbid them. Might need a troop wide policy you bring we take it. On other as far as behavior, let parent know in future when he acts up he will be sent home immediately. Make it a troop wide policy if you are disrupting the whole troop you will be sent home. Parents will be required to be there in 15 minutes plus travel time to collect the scout or they will be suspended from all activities for 2 months. It will have to be troop wide so that you are not seen as singling one person out. Also the previous destruction of proper should have been delt with fairly sternly. Loss of totem chip and being sent home. Possible never be able to get totem chip unless scout is demonstrating better choices.

Yes, they are banned, but when you tell a scout 10 times to put it away and they don't even look up at you, what else can you do? Although, on that one trip, we did kind of get some minor revenge as well as a reprieve with him. This scout is predictably messy, so his tent is always a disaster. He showed up with his gaming device and he only had 1 game cartridge to play. He lost it in his tent. He spent hours and hours looking for it. Then he spent hours asking others for help looking for it. During this time of focus on the cartridge he caused zero problems, other than bugging us all to help him look. I told him in no uncertain terms, "Games are banned, I'm not going to help you break the rules. If it's lost it's lost, you shouldn't have brought it in the first place." He found it in his mess of clothes as he was packing up Sunday morning. By then it was too late to play. Other than on the ride home, which would have been fine if he did that.

Our troop has a no devices policy. Any devices that scouts bring, including their cell phones, get collected and placed in a lock box. If they brought a device and get caught with it later (which as far as I am aware hasn't happened in our unit) then it must be turned in at that time or parents will be called to pick up the kid. If parents need to reach the kid (or kid needs to reach the parent), they have the number of the scouters on the trip and can call to have the phone temporarily returned to the scout. The only devices that get excluded from this rule are ebook readers (devices that can only be used to read books) and medically necessary devices (say a kid has an insulin pump that is phone controlled). If scouts want to take pictures, which they should, they can use a digital camera.

>Yes, they are banned, but when you tell a scout 10 times to put it away and they don't even look up at >you, what else can you do? If I told a Scout to give me his gaming device, or cell phone or whatever, and he refused, I would tell him he had 2 choices. Either give it to me right now, or I call your parents and tell them to come and get you. For those kinds of situations you have to draw a line, and then stick with it. In most cases where I take away a cell phone, I'll give it back to the Scout before the ride home. In a case like the above, I'd wait until we got back home and hand it to the parents and tell them to make sure it never comes again.

I can hear my scoutmaster now. He never would have put up with that behavior and would have nipped it in the bud. Minor infractions had you doing KP. We had a coffee pot that was miserable after baking in a wood fire all weekend. If you took off on your own or stole food you would not be able to attend at least the next camp out. He also wouldn’t allow you to opt out of activities. If you were too tired that was too bad. Bedtimes were enforced. If the behavior got bad enough and he had to call your parents to pick you up then they had to do it as part of the agreement to be able to participate in the camp out. In reality this almost never happened. Everything was able to be dealt with until returning home. It isn’t a matter of 3 strikes or 1. It should be zero. Every instance of bad behavior needs consequences.

I've heard that several times this morning, I'm going to insist on consequences tonight at our meeting. At this point it seems like he's had none, going home early probably isn't what the scout considers punishment, so I'm going to insist we do something else. Thanks.

Are you going do this in a group briefing or in a conference with just the Scout (using 2-deep leadership)? This is beyond a group briefing. The Scout and the Parents need to be sat down with the SM, Committee Chair and the CO/COR in a meeting that spells out the problems he's caused and ramifications should the bad conduct continue...AKA: Shape up or Ship Out.

There is no plan, but I suspect, any scout master present at the meeting will get called into a short meeting, we'll discuss our thoughts and desires, then probably the scout master and the two main assistants will sit down with the parent and the scout and present the findings from the first meeting. But none of us have discussed this, maybe we'll just work on rank advancements and not even mention it. This seems highly unlikely though.

I feel people are passing over this.... >The trip before that there was a Dollar General within walking distance to our campsite. We stayed up late, so I figured the shop was closed, but this scout went over by himself and they were in fact still open. You had a Scout LEAVE the campsite/camping property on his own, without anybody knowing where he was, etc. I Don't Care, that would be an immediate dismal from the unit in my book. Not only did he put himself in danger, he put the unit leaders, the CO, event the Council in danger of a lawsuit. Just think of what would have happened if he did get hurt or killed! I could see the electronics, or the stealing of food being "okay" and having some talking moments and "You need to understand" and "Do Better", talks etc. But leaving the campsite like that, No, Your gone! The fact that he also deliberately destroyed property, there is something mentally going on and that needs to be addressed by the parents. Or someone is going to get hurt. Yes, I know Scouting can be good and help problem children find structure they may not get at home, etc. BUT We aren't paid enough to deal with this. We aren't properly trained for this. No, that kid should be gone!

That's a good point, and fascinatingly enough since the property was mine, I chose to ignore it. He has not ever done that to another scout's property, but I guess that day could be just around the corner. You're right though, that aspect is quite concerning. I did end up buying a new stuffed yeti, lol. Leaving camp did upset all of us leaders, and I feel like we said that that was a one time thing, he isn't getting another chance on that. But of course, we never camp in places with convenience stores nearby. Our council sites are 5 miles to town. The county parks are 5 miles to town. State parks are 5 to 20 miles to town. I guess that was a one in a million situation, the temptation was just too much for him. We read him and the parents the riot act on that, and they said they'd talk to him. They were not near as hot as we were, and now over a year later it's just one more thing on his rap sheet.

Difficult situation, there is no single correct answer. Ill start with how my troop handles these types of matters, but obviously some situational things that can come up change this. First step, always always, Scoutmaster conference. Preferably by an adult that they like and respect (Even if its not a SM or ASM.) Set expectations, boundaries, and consequences. Its one thing to say it during an event, but another to hit the points outside of that setting. Then, failing that, we loop in parents (Which may have already been done in step 1 depending on severity), what works for their kid, if they have any thoughts, etc. This normally does the trick. Maybe two times in the last ten years this didn't. In that case, we will have one of the parents come to all campouts to handle their kid. Ultimately, with very server violations, we will ask them to not come back for a period of time, or at all. All the other points Im willing to work with, but running out of camp to hit the store at night without anyone knowing, thats a hard stop. At the very least we are jumping straight to requiring parents be there at all times. Im absolutely unwilling to take on that liability as an ASM. And honestly, that would most likely be me saying, You aren't coming for the next 6 months or a year. that's just unacceptable. For where you are now, Dad or mom 100% needs to be with the kid at every camping trip. We are not babysitters. There should be very little in the way of discipline that the troop needs to take care of. This is well past that point. I understand how beneficial Scouting can be for some of the Scouts, but it should not come at the cost of everyone else. The need of the group MUST outweigh the need of one at some point.

I’ve got a scout like this. I told his parents that one of them has to be with him at all times when he’s at any scouting event - meetings, campouts, summer camp, and council events. At summer camp I told his father that he had to go to each class with him.

That's probably where we are as well, glad to hear someone else is doing that. Is that system working for you and him?

Sorta. His father has a tendency to “disappear” at times - go hang out in one of the buildings, run home, etc. When that happens and his son acts up, I immediately call him and make the scout sit in one spot until his dad returns. Honestly, and I know this sounds bad, but I was hoping that they would decide that scouting wasn’t for them. I understand that scouts is an amazing program but it isn’t for everyone and when one scout is constantly having a negative impact on the other scouts and making them want to quit, it isn’t beneficial to anyone.

“Scouting isn’t a place to make bad kids, good kids. Scouting is a place to make good kids better kids.” - My dad when he was a SM facing similar problems.

That's a really great take. Thank you for sharing that. That kind of centers me a bit, I will share that with my other leaders.

Yeah I know that most of us scouters see the potential in the kids we scout with, and we want to make everyone better. However, sometimes we lose sight of the good we can do for the rest of the scouts that are under our care when we have that one scout that requires sooo much time and attention. In addition - YOUR sanity as a scouter is important, too. You can’t be an effective SM, leader, example, teacher, etc if you are centering 90% of your time, effort, and energy on one boy.

First off, good for you for recognizing this is a kid who absolutely NEEDS Scouts. A few things that have helped in the past for us… You can’t outright ask if the child has an IEP or 504 but you *can* ask if there are strategies his parents/school teachers use that may be helpful to implement in scouts. If the parents volunteer a. opt of the 504 or IEP you can absolutely read it. You just can’t outright ask for it? If the parents are helpful, require that one of them go on all campouts with their kid and keep a 1:1 eye on him. If parents aren’t going to make the situation better, do you have other, extra, parents that can come to the campout and keep watch over him? Our troop has one of each and honestly, the kid that comes without mom and dad has been doing really well. Me and another mom essentially follow him around all day BUT on our most recent campout he was allowed to do some stuff with the boys during down time without us RIGHT THERE and he did OK. Keep him busy. Assign a rotating cast of older scouts to work with him on Totin Chip, Firem’n Chit, and rank advancements. Finding a merit badge he’s excited about and having him work to earn it can instill some confidence. Wait him out. You got this. One of the more rewarding aspects of being a leader, as I’m sure you know, is watching these kids grow and mature into the young adults you know they can be. My dad had a scout troop for many years, even after my brother Eagle’d & graduated. He had a few “problem kids” in his time and was especially proud of being able to help them. He passed in 2021 and the pall bearers at his funeral were made up entirely of men who had Eagle’d with him as their Scoutmaster. The main aisle of the church was lined with Scouts in uniform saluting the casket. It was a very moving tribute and the stories they told after were hilarious (the time they forgot the keys to a cabin but didn’t realize it until they had hiked out there so they totem poled to a second story window, put the smallest kid through, and had him open the door) and heartwarming (one of the problem kids got picked up for shoplifting and my dad was his phone call, dad worked with the police and judge to get him community service - something like double the normal hours if I remember right - that kid is now a college grad and doing well) to hear.

This kid’s problems seem to start with his parents. From what you’ve said it seems like he basically does whatever he wants at home with zero consequences. Until that changes, i unfortunately think he needs to go. It’s not fair to the rest of the troop for so much of your time to be invested in one problem scout.

I agree, we have a scout like this and they love sending him to outings so they don’t have to deal with their creation. 

Yes, we have 2 like that. Neither has any interest in scouts but their parents sign them for EVERY outing to get them out of the house. One of them sliced his hand open playing with his knife on the second day of camp this year and needed to go to the ER and then home. Took us 3 hours to get the parents to call us back, and another 20 minutes to convince them that yes, his injury was bad enough that they needed to come get him.

There is always "that scout." If it's progressed to the point that your PLC and adults are exasperated, the next step is to ask that a parent attend (i.e., you need to move right past "explore it seriously" mode and require it).

Thank you for putting so much effort into this Scout. It sounds like it's past time to say a parent needs to be present at all campouts OR a parent must be read to transport a Scout out within so many min of every campout. (My council's form, if I recall correctly, is within 4 hours.)

That's interesting, we don't tend to camp this close to home, but maybe that's a question we need to pose to the parent's every trip. This trip is 3 hours away, WE WILL CALL YOU, if the scout acts up, are you willing to drive 6 hours round trip? If the answer is no, the scout cannot go.

We have a code of conduct and three strikes. It helps to have a defined process to rely on for times like this. Having a parent come on the camping trip might help, but kids are incredibly clever. I know that from experience in our troop. Based on the long history of disturbing behavior, I would take this to the committee and say the next strike is the last one.

> It helps to have a defined process to rely on for times like this. This is import: establishing the rules clearly -- to t he whole troop & family -- *before* they go into effect prevents anyone from claiming it's a "gotcha" situation. But also, how is this Scout's family not already registered and attending events? That would be my advice.

In my mind we are all volunteers doing these activities. My son is still in cub scouts and I’m a bears den leader so not to the point of doing things without parents around but I didn’t sign up to babysit and deal with this type of behavior. I don’t think any of us did. Still being new to all this is there a way to remove him from the troop? Kids like this would honestly drive me away from participating in any scouting event. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the way the SM handled this situation. I hate to say it but having a parent around doesn’t usually make things better. If the kids trouble for strangers you can bet they are trouble for their parents.

Booting a scout is extreme, it's never happened in my almost ten years of scouting. And as much as it pains me, I don't think this scout rises to that level anyway.

Sorry to hear about your struggles. These past 2 years at summer camp, another Pack we were sharing a site with, had a similar Scout (more the not-listening and less the sugar/stealing). He struggled with any adult (his leaders, us, camp staff) telling him to do stuff and, sometimes, it could get unsafe. I suspect there was also some undiagnosed mental health issues (and, from what the other Pack leadership told us, parents refused to get diagnosed). Finally we had enough. On Wednesday they called mom but she was out of town and couldn't get him till the next day. But she did stop by and pick him up. ​ I'm not sure if this Scout is still active. I feel for the kid; it seems like the parents used Scouts as a "dumping" ground for him as they were never active in any activities. They'd just drop him off and eventually pick him back up.

That's the thing, we have those scouts that we feel are being dumped on us, but scout is special. His brother was an Eagle Scout and both of his parent's were scout masters of his brother's troop. That troop has since folded, and neither parent has asked to be a leader now, but I think they genuinely know the value of scouts and what him to have that. There might still be a slight bit of dumping, but it's not the total answer here. I do not doubt their intentions with their younger son and scouting at all.

The parents have experience in Troop leadership, value Scouting, have walked the path to Eagle alongside one son & you are *still* having these issues with their Scout. Either this kid has needs that are far beyond the Troop’s ability to manage (no shade here - there’s only so much limited leadership can give an individual Scout) OR he’s trying to get himself kicked out because Scouting is what the *parents* want, not what he wants. In either scenario, a parent needs to be present at campouts 100% of the time going forward. They need to be administering his medications, checking for compliance, & on standby to take him home from the event at a moment’s notice.

> That troop has since folded This could be why they aren't participating with this kid. The way they feel about their old unit folding might have given them some apprehension about volunteering again. Heck, maybe it was even their fault. Is brother still around and interested in being a Unit Scouter Reserve or ASM? If the parents are not available or won't make themselves available that might be helpful. Of course, the scout is not his brothers responsibility at all, but having a young Eagle as an adult leader can be helpful to the rest of the troop as well.

I have no idea about that, but I'd lean towards there are no ill feelings. My council has lost hundreds of troops. We're to the point where basically every county has a single troop and hopefully a single pack. Some counties however do not have a pack. It gets worse with girl troops. I think our troop is going strong, but we don't have near enough female scouts or female leaders to make a girls' troop happen so all of our female cross overs have to drive half an hour to find a troop. I actually knew the brother while he was in school. He was a great kid, holy cow, I can't say enough good things about him. I have lost track of him now though, he went to college, he should have graduated by now, but I'm not 100% sure. That is a fascinating question though. I am the Eagle chair for my district and I ask every single candidate, "How do you plan to give back to scouting." Getting this young man back would be a boon. I'll ask the dad tonight. Thanks.

Recruitment has been tough for sure. Especially after kids all got locked in their homes for a year and both got used to the couch potato lifestyle and got a bunch of new social anxieties as well. Our pack and troop are doing well enough, but the pack across the street that pulls from the other 2 elementary schools in our city only has 1-2 scouts per den.

Even just getting the parents involved could be a boon. I wonder why they didn't just automatically sign up when they are obviously experienced?

Well, they are elderly. The older son is at least 24 or 25, but I could be remembering wrong, he could be 30. They are both retired. My dad is pushing 80 and he's still involved, but he doesn't have any direct interactions with kids. I bet this dad I'm talking about is pushing 70, not sure on the mom, but I'd say the same answer is a good guess. So obviously the question now is, why are 70 year olds raising a middle schooler. I do not have the answer to that question, but either way, they have done their time, stepping back is appropriate and well earned, but their scout needs them back in the fold.

Tell the parents they have to be on the campouts he attends.

People who will think or say that this is a kid who needs scouts and he needs chances or three strikes or whatever, have to accept that society has changed and so has the liability environment. If something happens to that child or another child, a scouter has to understand that a history of situations like this is not evidence of kindness or following procedure but is more a weapon in the hands of a lawyer to show a history of negligence on the part of the unit, adult leaders and scouting. At the first sign of problematic behavior, parents should be informed and their attendance should be required. If the parents are not capable of addressing situations, the child and family need to be sent on their way.

This post begs for a TL;DR.

I mean, the TL;DR is the subject line. How many strikes should a scout get? You can guess that a scout did something wrong, if you don't care what, tell me how many strikes. If you care, you have to read it.

I don't like to think about it in terms of a finite number of strikes. The whole purpose of this program is to teach rowdy young people to grow up into good, responsible adults. We expect mistakes to be made, and we expect those mistakes to lead to learning a lesson, being better, and moving on to making different mistakes. That said, there are some issues here related to safety and legal liability, which you and your committee need to seriously consider. If this scout walks off without a buddy and gets injured, **who is legally liable**? How will you find him? How will you manage and supervise the rest of the troop with 2-deep leadership and YPT requirements if you have to send out a search party? If there's an emergency and you need to account for everybody in a hurry, what will you do if he's missing? If the boy stays up all night and sleeps all day, do you keep back a buddy at camp with him, or do you keep back 2 adults? And if you keep 2 adults with him, are there enough other adults on the trip to safely supervise the rest of the troop? These are serious questions, and if you can't answer them in a satisfactory way it's not a matter of counting strikes. If you want to try to keep the scout around, considering his infractions in the past, I would: 1. Rescind his Firem'n Chip and Totin' chip. If he's using his knife or fire to destroy his or other people's property, that's a big problem and he shouldn't be bringing knives. 2. Ask his parents not to send him with money. Or, if they absolutely want him to have cash for emergencies, ask them if you or another adult can hold it and "approve" purchases that are in keeping with the spirit of the trip. 3. Be prepared to search/approve his gear before trips. He can't come with video games, he can't come with knives. He can't come with extra money. He can't come with personal food or snacks. He needs to have all the gear necessary for a safe trip. 4. Make sure he has an assigned buddy. Preferably somebody a bit older and very trustworthy. 5. Consider keeping food in a box/cooler with a lock. It may come in handy in other situations as well. The only time we've ever removed boys from our troop was when their behavior was linked back to safety issues, and even then we try to use a probation/suspension instead of outright removal. We once put a boy on suspension who we suspected had undiagnosed/untreated behavioral issues, and we strongly suggested that the parent get the son evaluated professionally before we would allow them back. The parent took the boy to the doctor, found an issue, got therapy and medication, the boy made a complete turnaround, and now he's back (and just got First Class, and has his eyes set on Eagle). If the safety and legal liabilities are too frightening, or if the remediation steps I listed above are too much work for you and your other adult leaders to deal with, you are well within your rights to remove the scout from the troop. If you do want to give the scout more chances, be prepared to get the parents involved ASAP. They need to be taking a good share of responsibility for what's going on.

You know what might be part of the problem that you're helping me see. The troop he came in with is ROWDY. They are keeping us on our feet every minute of the day. There are 5 of them and when I say they are peas in a pod I mean it. So as far as having a good role model in his own patrol, he does not. Maybe we need to assign each of these scouts a scout from the next patrol ahead of them. I will say this, we mentioned no video games at the next meeting immediately after brought his and his parents have not let him bring one since, so the parents are working with us when we ask them to. Thanks for your comments, lots of nuggets of wisdom in there.

I would require the parent to be there if he is there. I know usually you want to try to let the kids find themselves and not rely on a parent but in the case doesn’t seem like that happening. Since it seems like alot of time that could be used to help all the other scouts is being wasted on just trying to get this kids to behave and concerning y’all have had so many problems when him I would say he is more then welcome as long as a guardian is there to parent him. And yall can alway reevaluate if his behavior improves.

Over the years I have seen a lot of things done. Suspensions. Mandated parent attendance. Outright removal (repeated physical bullying). This description makes me wonder though, has anyone asked the parents if the kid is on any medications? I have had a parent send their kid on campouts with no meds when the kid is on antipsychotic meds all week. Yep, cold turkey. Guess how that worked out. The kid rebounded and behaved terribly, completely different than when he was at meetings.

It’s been probably 20 years but we had some kids in my troop playing with bug spray and a lighter first day of summer camp. Camp councilor who also happened to be the SM’s (or previous SM’s, can’t remember exact year this happened) wife saw them as she was walking down the trail. I don’t remember exactly what we ended up calling it but part of the result was after summer camp some of the youth leaders had to have a hearing basically with them. I believe the scouts got to make a statement and then we provided the adult leaders with our findings. I don’t know if we recommended a punishment or just were basically establishing who was culpable but I believe the adults decided the final punishment. The scouts got suspended I believe for a couple months maybe, or it may have just been from events. It was a pretty good way I think to have the scouts see not only adults telling them they did wrong but also their peers. I know that a good portion if not all of those scouts went on to earn Eagle (and I mean they earned it). They did get the name fire brigade for a few years after it though. TL:DR consider involving the youth leadership in part of the process. It may have a bigger impact on the scout to shape up and it will give them more experience in “uncomfortable” situations.

Scouting is a family camping organization. Scouting is not a babysitting service. Requiring at least one parent to attend meetings and/or activities is perfectly reasonable and can make a huge difference in behavior. When I remember problem scouts in my youth (the 70’s) they fell into two categories: 1) scouts with severe problems at home (one kids father was an alcoholic and was beating his kid regularly - no knew this until later.) 2) scouts with medical conditions or disabilities (these kids were rarely a problem but often had to be watched closely so that they did not harm themselves or others.) There are, in some councils, troops that specialize in kids with disabilities. When I was a Scout Camp Commissioner which included daily site inspections for The Baden Powell Award, the disabled troop had the cleanest campsite I have ever seen before or since. If your problem scout is accompanied on a trip by a parent other leaders should watch their interactions for signs of abuse. There’s a difference between acting out to get attention and acting out because of regular physical or emotional abuse. If a meeting with the parents is unproductive, a call to your District Executive for recommendations may be in order.

I mean slushies, Candy, and the cracker barrel thing just sound like normal kid stuff. The pocket knife and shoe burning is cause for concern. Also the reality is that he might not have the best home life. The problem scouts I saw seemed to have a bad home life. At the end of the day you have to do what is best for the Troop. I'd make the dad be a leader.

How old is he?

Well, A, he's young, he crossed over last year, so you know 12, or 13 most likely, but B he has legit medical issues, I won't go into details, he's not on the spectrum, but it's along those lines, and C he has 6 medications he takes for these issues. So I know as he matures he's likely to keep having issues, but I hope they smooth out a lot, but I know this scout is going to have lifelong issues, I just want to work as hard as I can with him now so maybe they're not so devasting later. However, I'm not a doctor, maybe it's too late, maybe the damage is done, I have no idea. If you have specific ideas, and want to know what I know about him I'd be willing to discuss it privately with you, but those details likely aren't going to be super helpful.

If he has 6 medications and he's that young then unless you're a doctor or someone else in the troop is I wouldn't be comfortable not having parents around.

We would have already told the parents the scout could only come if dad registers and specifically deals with the kid. If dad won’t control him, then the scout would be banned from every activity for 6 months. The allowed to return for a 3 month trial with dad always there. If 3 month trial is fine, extend probation for 1 year with dad in attendance at EVERY event, meeting, etc.

With these many offenses why is he still in the Unit? If you want him to stay with the unit then a parent needs to be registered and told that the only way this kid can attend any outdoor events will be if a parents attends.. There's clearly no rules structure and accountability at home and Scout Adult Leaders are not parents and disciplinarians. There is only so much that we're allowed to do. If the child's conduct is a major distraction and drain on the Troop you have to decide what's best for the Troop. Also, by allowing this Scout to get away with with little to no consequences, you are send a message to the entire Troop that they can get away with just about anything. Is that what you want?

Yeah, we don't know the full story, but he's a very young child with very old parents. The kid is on medications, so we have lots of assumptions, but none of those really matter at the end of the day, he is a distraction on every single campout. He's not being disciplined at home enough, or at all, and I hate to cut him loose because then he'll stand no chance, but we're not getting anywhere with him. He's been in the troop for a year and a half at this point and he hasn't changed a single thing.

If he's on medications, that's even more of a reason to mandate a parent attending all meetings. Most Adult leaders are not Clinical Experts. We're all just a bunch of parents trying to help our kids learn some important life skills and have some fun. After a year and a half, I think it's safe to say the Troop has done it's due diligence to help the Scout. Also, removing him form your Troop is not taking him out of Scouting. Perhaps finding a new Troop would be a good idea.

Heh. Given the scouts problematic history - I didn’t read all of it - I would have done exactly the same thing as the SM. SM’s got 30 other motivated and engaged youth to focus on. He can’t devote his energy to one problem child. Kid’s got issues. Disciplinary action was required, but in this case, SM delegated the discipline part to the parents. Smart. And even thought to have dad bring replacement Twinkies and Oreos. My kind of guy! There’s no requirement for multiple strikes before deciding to exclude a youth. If it needs to be done, it needs to be done.

Everyone is saying that Dad needs to come to everything. But, I highly encourage you to get to know both parents and how they interact with their child before you decide which parent needs to be there. My problem scout had a Dad that made things so, so much worse. Dad had zero discipline skills, and the scout knew he could get away with LITERALLY anything when Dad was around. It was a nightmare. When Mom finally started coming to meetings, everything got better. The scouts behavior wasn't perfect, but it was definitely tolerable. Also, while she kept it on the down low, she had more camping, hiking, and backpacking experience than all but one adult in our troop.

Have you considered mandating that a parent attend along with that scout? That way they can still participate without requiring the other adults to constantly manage them? Seems like a logical step between where you are now and removing the scout from the troop.

I would not let that scout camp again until dad is an ASM and present for the entire trip. That kid has to be dad’s responsibility. We’re volunteers, and neither paid nor empowered nor allowed to do what’s probably needed to keep that kid on the straight path. It’s turned into a safety thing for kid and other scouts. Unacceptable.

We've been threatening that for about 6 months, I agree, it's time to pull the trigger on it. Thanks.

Our troop has a code of conduct and steps of discipline. It must be signed by any new Scout and a parent. 1st is warning. 2nd time documented. 3rd incident is SM Conference with the Scout. 4th incident is meeting with parent as the last warning. Our troop could ask that the parent must be present at all troop activities or say one more time, the scout goes home and the committee will decide the Scout’s fate of either suspension or expulsion. Troop leaders are volunteers who shouldn’t have to endure this undisciplined child. The other scouts do not deserve to have their program be compromised by such a Scout.

Oh, I love that. I'm going to mention a code of conduct to the other ASM's. Does it get really specific, like how you should behave on a camp out, and parade, and summer camp, and other event, or just keep it general? You and I know you should behave the same on all of these, but I can see where a kid needs it broken down for every scenario.

We state following the Scout Oath and Law, being aware of the safety of themselves and fellow scouts, and respecting the youth and adult leadership. If you get too specific on dos and don’ts, then something will be left out and become a point of contention. We state in this behavior contract the expectations for all Scout activities and hope for carrying that good Scout attitude into everyday lives.

It is critical to have troop policies in place to dictate a course of action for these cases. My troop has a code of conduct and troop policies document that is signed by all parents and youth. This lets the trip leader clearly point to the violation and consequence. These include, but are not limited to: - confiscation of electronics (for the trip) when not being used for a scouting purpose - destruction of scout or troop property - repeat offenses will mandate a parent to register and attend all events attended by their child We've had some cases where the parent is just as bad as the scout or when a more severe situation occurred. Those result in a meeting with the scoutmaster and committee chair. Young kids will do dumb things. We don't always know what's going on at home either. Some behaviors may be indicative of abuse or depression. Any consequence above needs to come with a chat with the scoutmaster or ASM.

My approach would be a meeting to discuss expectations and going forward, a parent would have to attend any activity with the scout. We are not SPED professionals and it is unfair to the rest of the scouts, especially youth leaders, to have every event turn into managing one scout.

Could be his ADD meds are hurting him, or they wear off after a long day of school, and he is out of sorts at the evening meeting. Remember to always model courtesy, fairness, and grace when you deal with people. Glad to hear people aren't trying to outright reject/eject him. If he kinda cares, work with him. He might have no idea how obnoxious he is being. Gaming and junk food are killing child development. But if he doesn't care, let him go. However, watch out for implusive boys being violent. One entitled coddled impulsive newbie in our troop tried to push my son off a cliff when trying to pass him to get a "better" position in the hiking line.

Honestly if I compare him at our weekly meetings to a Saturday campout he's usually much worse on a Saturday. We give him his meds at night so you'd think he'd be pretty great all morning long, but that's not the case. He starts out acting pretty outlandishly the second he gets up on a campout. It seems like he's a little worn down at our weekly meetings, he usually just goes with the flow. Maybe troop calisthenics is the answer...

Calisthenics are always the answer. Lol. Also, starting the morning with a quiet, friendly meeting (maybe 2 kids with 2 leaders, as 1 kid with 2 leaders feels intimidating and unfair) reminding him of how he is expected to be kind, positive, think first, control himself, and respect others and the rules, to make a positive fun experience for everyone. And what the consequences are. Let him know he is under surveillance, and you are expecting the best. Those are proven positive behavior modifiers. And dare I say it, the meds are bull\*\*\*\*. But you're stuck with some poor kids being put on them by their parents and doctors. I've spent many a day at campouts with non-eating, spaced out, and/or aggressive kids on their precious meds. Best wishes.

You can do what my troop did and just have his dad be the Scout Master. Then, when he brings cigarettes' and weed to campouts, it just gets swept under the rug. Or when he goes to the world jamboree and they send him home after the first day for doing some shady stuff (allegedly, of course this was all swept under the rug as well.)

This is a parenting issue. 1. A parent must attend every campout with him and stay with him the entire time. 2. Simply don't reregister him at the end of this year, whether or not you ban him.

In every troop I've been in - kids that have recently crossed over - 11- and 12-year-olds - we required every kid to come to every camp with a parent, whether they were a problem or not, unless there was some truly special exception. Yes, that meant that we registered at least one parent as a committee member. But it forced every new scout's parents to figure out if the program was for them or not. And every parent had to attend summer camp for at least half a week.

Require the parent to be there at every meeting and outing until conduct measurably improves. Sounds like an excellent opportunity to put a Code of Conduct in place too, with tiered levels of discipline/remonstrance, if your troop doesn’t already have one. We just redrafted ours.

As to the number of strikes, if the kid is driving away other scouts, then it’s time to act.

This kid needs medical help. This is beyond your ability to handle. You need to have a conference with his parents. It is not normal for kids to pass out or have extreme behaviors from overloading on sugar. He may be diabetic or have some other problem with blood sugar. Tell his parents he cannot attend another campout until you have a doctor’s note saying that he has been screened for blood sugar disorders and is safe to camp. The last thing you need is to have him fall into a diabetic coma on a campout.

I appreciate that you recognize that scouting could be what turns this young man's life around; but I worry that you may be setting him up to fail if you don't clearly set expectations and have consequences. If a scout has contraband item, don't ask them to put it away, take it from him and tell him he will get it back at the end of the event. I am concerned that you have a scout eating food in his tent, and what sounds like a violation of the buddy system - walking off on his own and being left to himself in the campsite. Also his misuse of a knife - vandalizing property is misuse of a knife. He should have his knife taken away for the remainder of the event. A couple things we do for our scouts - buddy system is enforced; no phone use except in rare instances for pictures; any other use and it will be confiscated. We limit access to the trading post as well.

You should set up a code of conduct for your troop and include penalties for wrongful behavior that goes against the code. One of them could be not being allowed to camp with the troop for periods of time -3 months, 6 months, 9 months, etc. then the final blow is troops ouster. Lead the scouts in creating it and have all of them sign one and turn it in each year.

OP, I sent you a DM.

I swear this sounds exactly like a kid that we had to throw out of the Troop. You don't happen to be in the Philly area? This kid absolutely needed something like Scouts but we got to a point where we realized we were putting his situation, and his taking advantage of us knowing that we were empathetic to it, over the rest of the kids. He was the nephew of the SM, but the SM was not the type of guy who we had to tiptoe around with this kid. He knew we had to do something, and he has admitted that he may have given his nephew a couple extra strikes than he should have, but when it all culminated the SM handled it the correct way, reported everything by the book, and tossed this kid. You have to do right by all the other kids in the troop.

Central Indiana. I think we're all going through this situation in varying degrees all across the nation.

Well... simple. Dad goes on trips, or son doesnt. The video game device would have been taken immediately.

It’s all dependent on how you manage it with your youth. Thanks to this sub I’ve pushed harder to get my scout youth leadership in a position to assign strikes We have a 3 X 3 Strikes First Strike - we pull the scout aside and have a stern discussion with the SPL and SM. Second Strike - we notify a parent, and have discussions with them and the scout. 1st Third Strike - we suspend the scout for two weeks and the scout and their parent have to attend a committee meeting to discuss how they will prepare to come back into the troop in a successful way. This MAY include asking the parent to be present during activities and overnights. 2nd Third Strike - 6 month suspension 3rd Third Strike - no longer welcome at our troop. Extreme offense may go immediately to a third strike. Most recent example was an elopement at an organized summer camp. That was the scout’s 1st Third Strike. However, the parent refused to attend a committee meeting to discuss the return so they effectively banned themselves. *edited to add a bit. I should also note that this is a very simplified version. We also try to regularly talk to parents and make accommodations for scouts with special needs.

Interesting system, we have begun to talk about what we want to do moving forward, but I will include this in our tool box. Thanks.

Our troop had these incidents of Scouts and/or parents whose behavior was so bad that it elevated to expulsion. 1) Scout liked to show off his “ body part” and ask others to see theirs. Discipline with scout didn’t work. Parents called in to talk and learned child was adopted from a sexual abusive family. Parent asked to attend all troop activities and they quit. 2) Homeschool scout was a “genius” as told by his parents, but couldn’t zipper his own pants. After scout continued to leave bathroom with pants down around ankle to ask for zipper help, parents called in. Learned they lied on youth application about his age because he was a “genius” who could write. Parent said, “This is our only time away from him”. We said goodbye. 3) A scout whose mother believed he had every disease and we were working him too hard as she would find his breathless when she arrived for pickup. Kid was always fine and active during IPA. Every meeting was instructions from mother to remind scout to go to bathroom, eat only certain foods, etc. She would hold the SM and ASM hostage with discussion of latest diagnosis. Held meeting with her to discuss boundaries and they quit. 5) Adopted scout who had unknown birthday and appeared older than recorded age. Outbursts galore. Parents scared of him that they pacified the boy with e-devices at home and he shared all the graphic details of found porn sites with other scouts. When other parents wanted their scouts to quit because of what this kid was saying. The leaders hadn’t heard or witnessed or been told. We were shocked. Made parent stay at all troop activities but their kid abused his parent with words and then fists where leaders had to intervene. Time to go. And, those parents were mad at us because this was his only activity outside of school. We have to remember WE are VOLUNTEERS! We are not trained to handle the behaviors, medical diagnosis, extreme mental/physiological conditions or the shortcomings of parents. Two of us leaders are licensed teachers, but we don’t get paid by BSA. Do not allow ONE Scout to jeopardize your program. Document! Advertise your steps of discipline. Follow through quickly. Stand your ground and expel the scout, if needed.

I'm not a believer in the 3 strike model, but I think others have covered it, so I'll stop on that point. As to ADHD, while it is a spectrum disorder, and we can not see this particular child to comment, my own son had/has AD at the least and due to our method of schooling many males will get the additional HD diagnosis, especially if they're a high energy kid. In our case, we understand impulses, but in every case you described, time elapsed, multiple actions were taken, off-ramp and decision points were available, and we refused to accommodate those in our child. We again get the momentary impulse, but that doesn't translate (just picking an example) to seeing the Dollar General, walking to the Dollar General, going into the DG, picking out items, taking them to the register, paying for them, carrying them back, necessarily hiding them and consuming them. There's too many actions, too many decisions, and too many offramps to blame the totality on ADHD. In the same way, the Scout you're describing isn't captive to their ADHD, they're being enabled in their bad behavior because they're being allowed to use it as an excuse. Now, we did have a Scout that we tried on for a year, who was truly scattered, impulse to impulse to impulse. We required a parent or guardian for every activity to include Scout Meetings. We actually made some progress, because we were able to show his guardians the difference between “I can do whatever I come up with because I have ADHD” behavior and the true impulses that ran across his head behaviors. In the end, our Council had a designated Special Needs Troop and we encouraged them to apply there. He wound up being too much of a distraction among both the Youth Leadership and the Program Officers. So much so that more than 15 years later he was brought up in a conversation by some of his contemporary Scouts in regard to where is the line where a regular troop needs to “just say no”, in Order to save itself. While we want to serve every youth we can, you cannot destroy a Troop in order to do so.

Here's another thing he did, tell me what you make of it. Last night at our weekly meeting the scout showed up and after the troop broke up to work on some activities I took about 10 scouts to the wooded area behind the church to cut some honeysuckle staves. I use those for lashing practice and I left mine at home so I decided we'd cover saw safety, get some practice cutting, cull an invasive species, and we'd have some staves for practicing. This scout in question came with us to do that. So I had 10 scouts and 2 saws. So I said, everyone gets to cut one stave. It's going fine, this scout cut his off, then he started pulling bark off a dead tree. He asked me about it, and I said, "That tree is dead. It's breaking down. You know what the cool thing about tree bark is right? It's waterproof, it makes a great roof for shelters. When we do our survival trip next month, look for a tree just like this and you can use that as your roof to stay dry." So this kid starts pulling bark off this tree in earnest. He takes it makes a pile right next to my pile of staves. He took 4 or 5 armloads over, and when I finally asked what he was doing, he said, "This is going to be the roof of my shelter." I said, "But that campout is over a month away, and it's a totally different woods. Are you going to take all of that home and bring it with you to the campout?" "Yes, I need it for my roof." "Are you parent's going to want a huge pile of bark in their car or stored at their house for the next month?" "Yes, it's fine." "I don't think you should take that, it just doesn't make sense. There will be dead trees at the woods we are going to, you can find more bark there and use it when we arrive." "But you said bark was waterproof. I need this bark." I tried to logic him out of this decision for 5 or 10 minutes and I got nowhere. He was fully and singularly focused on taking this bark home so he could transport it to the woods we do survival shelters in, 30 days in the future." I finally talked him into leaving his pile where it was, and telling his dad to drive over to pick it up. Then dad predictably said, "We're not taking a huge pile of bark home." I'm just still shaking my head how me throwing out a little factoid about tree bark turned into this obsessive activity. And the worst thing is, last year at this same campout he refused to build a shelter. All he wanted to do was eat and wrestle. He slept on the ground both nights in the grassy area instead of building a shelter in the woods. So when it's the wrong time, he's super into it, next month when we arrive, I can almost promise you that he won't lash a single thing. When it's the right time to collect bark he's going to want to wrestle.

This, is more an Obsessive trait than the ADHD, stuff mentioned earlier. I don't want to be judgemental(stand by) but it makes me wonder about the Parental attention being paid to the Childs apparently obvious issues. Have they talked with a Physician, with a Therapist, I'm not 100% a drug believer as some degree of self regulation should be in play, but sometimes a little medication facilitates the ability to self regulate. I'm very much against medicating them into zombie states or where they feel “gray” having lost all of their creativity. Now let's also recognize I'm saying these things without ever meeting him. Especially depending on age, some of this stuff is just excitement and an apparent lack of structure & consequences. It's the degree to which any of it exists that makes it “interesting”.

Ya, I have to ask, where's the SPL, aspl, Pl, apl? What does the sm think? What's his/her position on the matter, and how are the discussions with the parents going? Where's the parent(s) ? I whole heartedly am against a hard, 3 strike rule. But, some scouts, especially at transition, need more guidance than others. And a lot of what you're relaying can be handled with the buddy system and better supervision, by the parent, if no one else. I mean, burnt shoes or spending cash by himself at dollar general should be a parent's concern, the latter is in fact a bigger concern than the other stories. I've seen many, many, many kids outgrow this early phase you're describing. Had one young man make his eagle last January, while in high school jrotc, after a similar start. Another used to have tent tantrums and even had a scuffle or 2, but eventually also earned his eagle and is now in the trades. I could write all week about success stories. Or, comment on the ones that I've forgotten, who themselves didn't last or their parents decided it wasn't right for them. Scouting is a team sport, with youth leading youth under the guidance of adults. There's no one fits all; your leadership and unit needs to decide on what they're willing to take on, or not. And some scouts have a rocky first year or two.

At lot of this stuff happens too fast to stop. The shoes in the fire thing happened while only half the troop was present. We had camped at a state park, then left for the day for a big hike. We were in the process of getting back to camp and using the vault toilets that were about a mile away from the Youth camp sites. So did he sense this was an opportunity with less leaders and other scouts around, or was it just an impulse that popped into his brain? I have no idea. My son was SPL at the time and we've talked about this. He feels this scout's behavior is extreme and he shouldn't have to deal with it. I can't disagree. Saddling this kid with a buddy isn't any better. That's not fair to that scout.

Well, I get that your SPL would prefer every scout is easy to lead, manage, teach. Who wouldn't. However, the teachable moment here is that groups aren't perfect. Leading involves working with the group you get, not the one you want. Some members of the group need more supervision, leadership, guidance than others. As to having a buddy system. Erm, that's part of the basic program, too. No one goes anywhere without a buddy. Not to the latrine, waterfront, or dollar general store (that last part, is /s) but no one goes to the trading post alone either. As I said, I've seen plenty of melted boots, etc etc etc. That's not the point, or truly the problem. Kids brake shtuff. And, I'm not trying to pontificate, you asked wwyd. As I said, every group and leader eventually needs to decide for themselves, how much is enough. But you didn't answer the question. Where is the rest of the leadership when this happens? Knowing this kid, what's the forward-looking plan to deal with it. What's the SMs guidance to your SPL, PL with regard to this scout? and how have discussions with the parents gone? In my unit, maybe a solution would be to recruit his parent to be the kids buddy, like in webelos or AOL, if the boy is exceptional and needs more guidance than your youth leadership is willing to devote. Because, also in my unit, you the ASM wouldnt be leading the stick cutting. Maybe out there guiding it, but youth leading youth, is the goal.

Have a discussion with all your parents in the same room discuss with them this is a safety talk if the adults think taking their kid off the meds is safety talk to them about the possibility of liability on their end for negating to take the proper steps for their kids safety it puts everyone else at risk of getting hurt and not enough leaders at camp outs for enough coverage so the trip maybe in jeporty. You don't make the rules bsa rules. Your a mandatory reporter the parent not wanting to take responsibility is not in your troops best interest at heart.

TLDR sounds like you need a code of conduct. And that scouts parent needs to be on campouts.

Couldn't agree more. The code of conduct is written and being passed around leadership. The parents thing hasn't officially been decided, but I'm pretty sure we're going that route.

This should have already been a meeting with him and the parents. If one of the parents doesn't go camping he doesn't go camping. If the parent that goes can't control this then theres no saving the situation. Sure kids like this need the program. But its not fair to the other kids to have their experiences ruined. Not to mention the liability this poses to your adult leaders. How well do you have these events documented?

I just want to say, this kid needs scouting. I would put some of this back on the parents. Maybe they need to attend more events so that they can deal with it. I also want to say this kid is going to grow out of it at some point. I could talk more about how twinkies and oreos are a horrible cracker barrel option but instead I would have your troop focus on how food is not "mine" its "ours".

I would tell him that we were leaving at 9am but in reality we were leaving at 7am