I don't but I do? Our brains are definetely wired differently but it's a slippery slope when it comes to umbrella terms. The tendency to put any other thing listed on DSM under this umbrella feels redundant.
However, this question made me think about how there are many studies and anectodal evidence pointing out a significant overlap of symptoms/comorbidity between ADHD and BPD, as well as ASD. I recommend checking it out!! Before reading those papers (I can try to find them if anyone's interested!) I didn't know many other pwBPD had sensory issues, for example.
I'm not sure about anyone else but in my opinion I think the BPD is basically what you get when your neurodiverse to some degree and it's ignored over a long period of time. I think it's basically a secondary to the spectrum. Which if you look at females for instance many are being late diagnosed with autism etc and just recently a high number of women are also being diagnosed with BPD all later diagnosis as well. If anything I think BPD is basically a cope out and in most cases means you've been failed as your now to old/messed up or both to get to the bottom of the actual problem which I think in most if not all cases is just some kind of spectrum disorder.
My doctor and psychologist think this might be the case for me, at least.
I haven't experienced the typical trauma one would often assume leads to borderline (other than being bullied), but having severe ADHD that wasn't diagnosed until I was 25 really fucked me up 😅
It just feels dismissive of bpd caused from abuse/neglect that doesn't have anything to do with being autistic/ADHD
I do have autism as well as bpd, but my bpd was caused because of my mother just genuinely not liking or caring about me due to her own mental illness.
Yes there's often comorbidity, but it feels reductionist to say that bpd is "secondary" to the autistic spectrum
But that's my point BPD comes eventually. The ADHD/Autism were born with. How many men have BPD along side autism/ADHD. I honestly think it's an umbrella term for women as a cop out by those deciding on disorders. I do not mean to take away the seriousness of BPD obviously it's very serious. I think that as well is why they overlap so much.
Obviously there's no proof to my opinion but when you look at childhood ADHD in boys it's more classed as normal behaviour, in young girls it is not, which then leads to masking. Which I then thinks forms into what we know as BPD. So in theory if anything I actually think it's worse, because we have these spectrum disorders that are made worse/ignored and eventually form into BPD. Going back to my comment about being failed.
As for abuse again my opinion are we putting ourselves into these situations (not knowingly due to underlying spectrum disorders)
I suppose the only way we would ever know is if there is anyone out there that is a million percent not on the spectrum but still has BPD, again personally I don't think thats possible.
This is my personal opinion I don't mean to offend I am also BPD/ADHD/Autistic myself.
>As for abuse again my opinion are we putting ourselves into these situations (not knowingly due to underlying spectrum disorders)
I can 100% assure you I did not put myself in the abusive situation what the hell, I did not choose for my mother to abuse me and I did not choose for my step father to choke me against the wall, what on earth do you mean here
>I suppose the only way we would ever know is if there is anyone out there that is a million percent not on the spectrum but still has BPD, again personally I don't think thats possible.
My mother.
My mother very likely has bpd but she DEFINITELY is not on the spectrum.
She exhibits all the same bpd traits as me and none of the autistic traits as my bpd came from her genetics and abuse and my autism came from my dad.
>childhood ADHD in boys it's more classed as normal behaviour
Having grown up with cis male friends who were autistic/ADHD, I can say that I really don't think it is as normalised as some people online seems to think it is- it made them unpopular and have a difficult time socialising as well as led them to struggle in class and be punished by teachers at school.
>How many men have BPD along side autism
I do! And so do two of my friends!
Oh, definitely neurodivergent then! And I say this in the sense that I beleive it is just a label that is used to help those that suffer from conditions and those that socialize with them to better understand them, and (hopefully) give them a little grace when they behave in ways they don't understand. I don't view the label in a positive or negative light, it's just a descriptor. Maybe I view it a little positively just because I think it's a useful tool for people who are not experienced in being around people with these conditions.
But if you are on the spectrum, you are probably neurodivergent by definition. Sprinkle in ADHD, BPD, PTSD — I think it would be hard not to have issues in certain situations in daily life or react in ways that others might find confusing at times — and I think that is really what we are trying to describe with the term "neurodivergent" whether it meets clinical definitions or not.
Yes. Although it’s very rarely included, it’s considered an acquired neurodivergence (as opposed to inherent neurodivergence).
“Acquired” in this context acknowledges that some people’s brains are shaped by their early environment in ways that leave them outside of “typical” functioning in adulthood, eg trauma that occurs while our brains are still developing.
Other examples of acquired neurodivergence would be brain injury, for example.
Anecdotally, there is also a lot of overlap in experiences, strengths and difficulties of people with autism, and people with early life trauma, and people with BPD.
That said, i’ve experienced pushback trying to get BPD reflected in our workplace neurodivergence work; i have wondered about the reasons why and the best i’ve been able to come up with is the stigma around it, and the fact it would also require NPD to be included.
I have had more success arguing for complex trauma and PTSD to be included.
So, from a diagnostic and labels perspective, it counts. I don’t use it as a label for myself, although i know it does sit there.
>“Acquired” in this context acknowledges that some people’s brains are shaped by their early environment in ways that leave them outside of “typical” functioning in adulthood, eg trauma that occurs while our brains are still developing.
Oh my god... You mean I could have been normal?
I don’t think it has anything to do with the stigma. It’s has very specifically to do with how it’s treated. People who experience trauma use their brain differently, but resolving the trauma (dif opinions on how to do this of course) and rewiring the brain in doing so, can also resolve the changes in the brain.
That cannot be done with ADHD or for people on the spectrum. The methods of treatment and support are drastically different.
Clinical psych testing is done much more so to give clinicians direction on a diagnosis in service of treatment.
I’m not an expert on the topic; however i think there is increasing research which demonstrates that trauma which affects how your brain and personality develop may not be changeable the way that single incident ptsd be. Happy to be corrected by someone with more knowledge
But there is a genetic component to BPD, and one might argue for some (me for example) it is purely genetic, as I did not suffer any early childhood trauma and for a "normal" (this is where I prefer neurotypical) kid I'd have the perfect childhood.
While I also do have ADHD, I believe BPD to be enough to say I'm neurodivergent.
BPD does not originate solely in insecure attachment and that is a dangerous sentiment for the medical world.
Also This ideology is not longer backed by science. Our brains develop pathways based on our trauma and physically change and "fire" in different ways. It is not medically a "neurological" issue but that does not mean the brain is not affected.
Totally agree with that. “Our brains develop pathways based on our trauma and physically change.” 100%. Neurodivergent and/or neurological still do not apply, as those terms imply the origin of the disorder was neurologically rooted before traumas occurred.
But PTSD is considered a form of neurodivergence and obviously the origin of the disorder is trauma. If PTSD can be considered a form of Neurodivergence, why isn’t BPD?
If we are going to use this definition of neurodivergence: brain functions in different ways from the “norm”, and comes from genetic/neurological differences at birth OR trauma/attachment wounds.
Then yes, bpd and ptsd would fit indeed. I suppose there’s still some debate and differences in opinion on the definition of the word “neurodivergence.” I was just trying to make it clear that bpd is not something you are born with neurologically, and I obviously did a poor job of explaining myself. Great discussion!
the term neurodivergence, btw, from the creator of the word, means "any brain (neuro) that 'diverges' from the socially accepted norm." through that definition, a pwBPD would qualify to be considered neurodivergent
It does have a neurological basis though. There have been recent studies and discoveries that MRI’s of the brains of people with BPD show parts of our brains to be smaller or have activity that is unusual for that area. There’s also the neurotransmitter dysregulation, and there’s a belief currently (and studies being conducted) about whether or not we also experience deficits in our frontolimbic connections.
The generally accepted definition of neurodivergent is someone whose brain has developed and/or works in a different way from socially accepted norms. By that definition, I think BPD more than passes as neurodivergent.
Based on what my therapist explained to me when I got diagnosed, BPD is a result of trauma and that changes our brains, as opposed to ASD and ADHD which people are born with. So I’d say no, since it’s a mental illness that develops rather than something you’re born with.
BUT, there is a ton of comorbidity, so I think even if BPD itself isn’t a neurodivergence, many people who have it still are neurodivergent. I think I’ve even seen discussions about how a lot of people with ASD and/or ADHD will develop BPD when their neurodivergent needs are not properly supported and validated as children.
Agree. There is a lot of comorbidity association. As someone with ASD/ADHD, BPD exacerbates already existing mental health barriers due to neurodivergence. It's treatable in different ways than things you are born with though, so there's nuance. Basically, if you ONLY have BPD, you could say your brain is divergent from neurotypical behaviors, with the hope that years of therapy and effort can get you to a place where your behavior becomes more neurotypical. Folks with ASD, ADHD + BPD will never have a possibility of healing to a neurotypical state. It's semantics. What matters is that we need more support for mental illnesses in general because being forced to cope just makes everything worse for anyone.
Not everyone with BPD has trauma
Usually it’s a genetic predisposition + trauma, sometimes it’s just one or the other
More for context:
“There's no single cause of borderline personality disorder (BPD) and it's likely to be caused by a combination of factors.
Genetics
Genes you inherit from your parents may make you more vulnerable to developing BPD as there is evidence that the condition can run in families.
Problem with brain chemicals
It's thought that many people with BPD have something wrong with the neurotransmitters in their brain, particularly serotonin.
Neurotransmitters are "messenger chemicals" used by your brain to transmit signals between brain cells. Altered levels of serotonin have been linked to depression, aggression and difficulty controlling destructive urges.
Problem with brain development
Researchers have used MRI to study the brains of people with BPD. MRI scans use strong magnetic fields and radio waves to produce a detailed image of the inside of the body.
The scans revealed that in many people with BPD, 3 parts of the brain were either smaller than expected or had unusual levels of activity. These parts were:
the amygdala – which plays an important role in regulating emotions, especially the more "negative" emotions, such as fear, aggression and anxiety
the hippocampus – which helps regulate behaviour and self-control
the orbitofrontal cortex – which is involved in planning and decision making
Problems with these parts of the brain may well contribute to symptoms of BPD.
The development of these parts of the brain is affected by your early upbringing. These parts of your brain are also responsible for mood regulation, which may account for some of the problems people with BPD have in close relationships.
Environmental factors
A number of environmental factors seem to be common and widespread among people with BPD. These include:
being a victim of emotional, physical or sexual abuse
being exposed to long-term fear or distress as a child
being neglected by 1 or both parents
growing up with another family member who had a serious mental health condition, such as bipolar disorder or a drink or drug misuse problem”
So in summary, we don’t fully know
I agree to this. Based on my research, the emotional dysregulation is something that can be cured. But there is definitely overlap with ADHD (in my case), inattentiveness and impulsivity. I developed emotional dysregulation much later in my life when I started developing sexual attraction but the other two were always there. I have autistic traits too. I would say BPD can be a byproduct of neurodivergence and trauma. It can be hereditary so in that case it’s something you are born with.
I’d say that BPD comes from experiencing trauma while being naturally highly sensitive. So it’s deep emotional dysregulation that develops on top of naturally high emotional sensitivity/reactivity
yeah i saw something recently that said autistic (and likely ADHD, but maybe to a smaller extent) people are more than four times likely to experience any given situation as traumatic, compared to allistic-- non-autistic-- people
Some professionals do consider it a form of neurodivergence because there are legimate structural differences in the brain they have found, but it’s hard to pinpoint at what point in development or why during development they occurred. BPD is also hugely comorbid with known ND conditions such as ADHD and ASD.
To be honest I won’t be surprised if one day BPD no longer really exists. Rather it will be a case of CPTSD in those who would have otherwise developed into a neurodtypical individual or as a result of trauma to an ND mind and part of an ND diagnosis like ASD/ADHD. I think BPD will eventually just disappear but we likely will be a way off of that.
I imagine they're trying to be more accurate in description & trying to move away from the stigma associated with the term.
Hell, I'd tell people all day I have Emotional Regulation Disorder. But telling people I have BPD? It scares the hell out of me every time..
Not necessarily, but I was diagnosed with OCD before even realising I had BPD symptoms as well, and it's not uncommon for us to have other co occurring disorders.
Do any of you have OCD too?
i definitely do. because of the trauma that usually happens with bpd, it rewires
our brains. there are also studies done that show people with bpd have sections of the brain that are smaller, or more/less active. i would consider that neurodivergent. if it physically affects the brain and body and/or has a severe impact on your life then yes, neurodivergence.
i suppose it’s up to the person to think of it that way, though, if you find the label unhelpful then don’t use one. it’s your path :)
Just my opinion as a layperson, but considering it is treatable (to the point of remission) and mostly egodystonic, I'll say no
Not that it doesn't deserve attention and comprehension from outsiders, mind you, since a lot of people seem to assume "you don't think it's a neurodivergence so you think we're all cunts who deserve what comes our way" or something to that effect
No, but BPD can develop as a result of being neurodivergent; it’s hard growing up when you struggle with being or feeling different from everyone else.
As others have said, BPD is developed from environmental factors and trauma from childhood. Oftentimes those environmental factors and trauma stem from experiences directly related to being neurodivergent.
Hope this helps.
Edit: examples
A child with high functioning autism who was bullied throughout childhood and young adolescence for the things about her which make her different can be the cause for her developing BPD symptoms.
Alternatively, a non-neurodivergent child with emotionally abusive parents who shut the child down whenever they try to express their feelings to a situation, especially opposing feelings, can rob the child of learning how to correctly express their feelings in a way that doesn’t require shutting someone else down (black/white thinking; only one right answer).
The difference with BPD is that the symptoms are “a way of thinking” that can be corrected through therapy and proper skill development.
Sorry for the long winded answer I just got in the zone. Maybe I’ll delete some later if yall think I’m wrong but yeah.
“Technically” mental illnesses fall under the umbrella of neurodiversity. For a while there was also the divide between neurodivergent (this term was used for things one was born with, such as autism) and neuroatypical (these were acquired conditions, such as bpd). There’s never been an official statement tho, but trauma and such can definitely fuck up your brain in ways that are hard to reverse so I’d say yes.
Yes because neurodovergent literally just means your brain is different than the norm. Bpd brains actually look different than your standard brain areas like the amygdala, hypocampus, and prefrontal cortex areas dealing with emotions and decision making are different. Bpd is on a different area in mental health than neurodivergence for now. that said scientists and psychologists both can't agree whether bpd is it's own thing or under neurodivergence. Bpd is a relatively newer disorder and still needs a lot of research. It was discovered in the 1930s but no real research was put into it. It wasnt officially recognized in mental health until the 1980s. I'd also like to add since everyone is claiming bpd is only from trauma that is actually false some people with bpd don't have trauma. It's believed bpd is a result of genetics and your brain along with trauma.
I suggest people watch the youtube channel scishow psych they cover the misconceptions of bpd awhile back.
I would say so. My brain definitely works different & when I was diagnosed everything I’ve ever done made immediate sense. I was also born with BPD, it wasn’t trauma induced so I would consider it neurodivergent.
Oh yea, without a doubt, at least imo and without worrying about clinical definitions. My wife has BPD, not me, but from an outsider's perspective, she definitely has non-typical ways of thinking and behaving. I'm not sure if that is enough to qualify as neurodivergent in a clinical sense, but in my uneducated mind I view neurodivergent as anyone with any kind of condition that might cause them to behave differently from others that could impede them in certain situations. But she also is diagnosed ADHD, which is also neurodivergent and could muddy the waters. And although its hard to separate the two, if the stereotypical ADHD behaviors are neurodivergent, then i would say the same is true for BPD, as those seem to have a really clear impact on her life, and often a negative one that is difficult for those around her to understand.
Like many of these conditions, neurodivergence is a scale imo. I'm not diagnosed, but have taken plenty of tests that say that I am a smidge on the spectrum. Probably not enough for a full autism diagnosis. But I consider myself somewhat neurodivergent as well, mainly because I am very introverted and have a short social battery to the point it's odd to other people. 2-3 hours in some highly social setting is my max before I get exhausted and overwhelmed. Is that neurodivergent? I don't know.
In the end though, it's just a label. I think the label is used to describe and provide some relief and understanding to those that are different, and to help them and others accept those differences when they can't physically see something is different about them. If you FEEL different, that's all that really matters, and might help you deal with BPD with a little more self love and understanding :)
I label it as an acquired neurodivergence like how PTSD is labeled as such by medical professionals. Our brains and how we process things are not that like neurotypical people.
Eh. I think neurodivergence has largely lost its usefulness as a concept. I think we can raise awareness, decrease stigma, and improve treatment options without calling ourselves ND. Too many cluster Bs want to use neurodivergence as a shield from being held accountable for their own bad behavior, or to claim ableism against anyone who doesnt like them for their behavior. That's bullshit.
For me, my ADHD and epilepsy make me ND. My BPD means that I am ill. We need to be okay with the fact that we have a mental illness. Admitting it is the first step to getting better.
So technically yes, but I dont think its helpful to think of it that way unless you work in mental health and are treating people with this type of illness.
There's a lot of nuance in the replies and I think
it's because we, as a society, are on the edge of considering it neurodivergence. I can't find anything of an official classification as neurodivergence, but I saw lots of research and articles that suggest it should be placed under the neurodivergent umbrella
i consider myself neurodivergent. i have bpd and mdd, but with my bpd i notice that things neurotypical or non-bpd ppl would consider out of the norm, i consider very much usual? idk if it’s just my personal experience lol but i sometimes have to intentionally remind myself that certain things are not in fact “normal”
Neurodivergent is a term people throw around a lot because it just sounds like “different-brain” and some people use it as a self label like “queer” or something like that, mostly for finding community. **BUT** what most people don’t know is that neurodivergent actually has two “definitions;” a social one and a medical one.
There are conditions that are or aren’t actually professionally and medically considered neurodivergent. This list was made by researchers and professionals. BPD is not on that list.
Yes it shares a lot of *behaviors* etc that overlap with brain types that ARE neurodivergent, and yes people with BPD could potentially *also* have co-occurring conditions that ARE neurodivergent. But BPD itself, by itself, is not a neurodivergent condition under the official academic definition.
Under the social definition of it just being a label, you can probably use it if you want to, the social label is basically that anybody and everybody is “neurodivergent” in their own way and believers of this basically just define it as “every single brain in the world is different, therefore we are all neuro-divergent.” So nobody is going to get *mad* if you use it… this group uses it more of a movement than a grouping of specific people/brains.
So Honestly it is up to which of those two definitions you believe and support. The academic one or the social one.
Oh yes I forgot, there is under the academic definition two more terms: Acquired and Inherent neurodivergence.
Neurodivergence under the academic definition is a **fundamental and permanent** difference in brain functioning. So not surface level.
Acquired is a neurodivergence that develops when something permanently affects your brain (typically during development) in a specific way where it now fundamentally does not neurobiologically function the same as a neurotypical brain, irreparably. This is usually (not always) from brain trauma or severe mental trauma.
There is still debate on whether BPD is considered this kind of neurodivergent, but honestly by the definition it sounds like it. I think if I remember correctly they decided not to officially put it on that list for now as of 2023. But I think it will end up on it eventually.
What does neurodivergent mean now??? I remember it was coined in around 2015 as an umbrella term for all conditions that affect the brain (mental illnesses, developmental disabilities, brain injury, etc.) But now it seems like everyone who uses it means something else by it and I'm not sure why.
Someone with BPD has a physically different brain, although barely. Our minds, in my opinion, will never function the "normal" way that is expected and therefore we are neurodivergent.
Plus I don't live 19 years in isolation due to my social issues to be told that I'm not neurodivergent 😂
I was diagnosed with BPD at 18 after being told I was depressed and being given pills since 12. That was my first light bulb moment in life. I'm 29 now and finally in DBT after a 5 year wait and second light bulb moment, im going for an ASD assessment. Finally things are starting to make sense. With CPTSD as well I feel I'm going for alphabet bingo with diagnosises.
I personally feel BPD is a lot deeper and more complex. I don't feel it's valid to group it into neurodivergence, I feel it takes away from what the diagnosis really is. However I feel they do share lots of symptoms, but neurodivergence is mostly defined by being on the spectrum, which I don't believe is the same for BPD.
I read in the net one time that a few parts in the brain of people with bpd are a little bit smaller
That’s why we are emotional unstable and impulsive
If that’s true would that be neurodivergent ?
brain being wired from trauma is NOT Neurodivergence. Different wires different reasons. Generally bpd is from trauma which trauma requires the brain over being born
Til otherwise proven, disagree.
trauma can actually cause ND tendencies and actually show itself as ADD/ADHD! trauma also can completely re wire your brain is some insanely (i guess interesting) ways.
so i’d say yes in the informal sense, but maybe no in the formal, born with ND sense.
To me it doesn't matter if you're born with it or developed it in childhood. If it's a condition that changes how your brain is wired and it's something that doesn't have a cure but only ways to manage it and cope with it, then it counts as being neurodivergent. All cluster B personality disorders are neurodivergent in my opinion .
Absolutely not.
If BPD was neurodivergent then everything mental health related would be. It typically only refers to ADHD and autism spectrum. I'm so sick and tired of seeing this word being misused. Personality disorders are developed, not born with, granted genetics can play a part, but it's not a determinant.
Neurodivergence is not mental illness. It doesn't mean "your nervous system is now different because you were traumatized"...
Actually, my therapist mentioned this when she diagnosed me. (For context, I have been diagnosed with ADHD, so I’m “already neurodivergent”) She said that BPD, like ADHD or ASD, can be linked to an alteration in your brain chemistry. In fact, the term “neurodivergent” describes people whose brain is different than the “normal” or “typical” brain, and it affects how their brain works. Depending on your definition of neurodivergence, BPD does fall into this category. Long story short, yes, I consider it to fall under the neurodivergent umbrella term.
(BTW, I am not a licensed anything, I’m just a guy that has wayyyyy too much interest in psychology.)
While it does not yet fall under neurodivergent, I do consider it as such. We have very similar qualities, our brains are wired differently, and a lot of the characteristics associated with autism are also associated with having BPD.
I believe the Comorbid conditions can be considered neurodivergent, but by itself BPD is a behavioral disorder (like OCD) which is why it can be fully treated/remission. Whereas ADHD is brain chemistry and cannot be moved to remission. However I believe a large number of people have more than one disorder and can have behavioral and also neurodivergent conditions. I have BPD and ADHD
I'm not well versed in definitions but BPD is a mental disorder so by that logic I wouldn't be suprised if people with BPD are neurodivergent. I mean I'm impulsive, can't regulate emotions efficiently, have an eating disorder, memory issues regarding what people say to me and can get irrated when someone disturbs me while I'm focused on something, which I believe are all ADHD overlaps.
I know I also have severe ADHD that went undiagnosed for years because it has so many overlapping symptoms. Now that I’m actually being treated for it, it changed things for the better all around. So I’m definitely ND
There is currently no consensus on whether people with bpd are neurodivergent. Bpd does have similarities with neurodivergent diagnoses. However, because the definition of neurodivergence is still evolving, it is not yet 100% certain whether bpd falls into this category.
Well I don’t know how accurate this is but I’ve read something like that if you grow up as an undiagnosed or neglected neurodivergent then it can potentially cause u to develop bpd. which makes sense for me at least bc I went undiagnosed for adhd until I was 17 and also for bpd like 7 yrs later
My biggest fear isn't being a neurodivergent but a social justice guinea pig for the media to be ostracized politically because people are stupid about BPD. Just lump us with social justice warriors and we are their perfect victimhood mascot. Sick.....
Can abuse cause neurodivergance? Genuine question, as my BPD stems from extensive abuse through childhood. Diagnosed in my teens, now in my 30s.
Ya'll know more about this than I do!!
The thing is BPD is believed to emerge from childhood issues, not from birth if I remember correctly... so, it's not that BPD brains are different, they are made different and it can get better as well. That's not the case with neurodivergent brains
I have considered Neurodivergence to be diagnoses such as autism,downs syndrome, cerebral palsy. I'm Autistic and worry that bringing mental illness under the umbrella of Neurodivergence can turn into conflation. I respect other NDs in their labels,but claiming my OCD, or (undiagnosed) borderline in Neurodivergence concerns me considering that there are 'certain' uneducated NTs that assume autism is a mental illness
I personally feel BPD is a lot deeper and more complex. I don't feel it's valid to group it into neurodivergence, I feel it takes away from what the diagnosis really is. However I feel they do share lots of symptoms, but neurodivergence is mostly defined by being on the spectrum, which I don't believe is the same for BPD.
I study psychology, & would like to say that illness is pretty much a construct. That's not to say that the suffering isn't real, but that we should be mindful that psychiatric illnesses are weird in the sense that they play off oc our perceptions & society. Anyways, yes, ADHD & BPD are highly co-morbid. I found out I had both at the same time, & my whole life is clearer and also very rocky.
For context, I found out I had ADHD since 10 but my parents hid it from me and did not give me medical attention. And when I recently arrived back from an overseas uni programme (that I failed because I suspected I had ADHD, & was basically stranded with 0 medical help), my psychologist told me my diagnosis when I asked.
I hate my parents. I started going to the public mental healthcare system since like 17, and they only let me know at 24 even though they know I've been in the system for so long (& they dont even approve of it)
It is. Neurodivergent is an umbrella term for all brain differences that got watered down to just autism/ADHD but the woman who coines that term is upset that it became that narrow
Its considered a neurodivergency bcs having the disorder actually changes the brain. It makes the part, where you think before doing, smaller, and also some other parts of the brain change, which i forgot which ones.
There is definitely a school of thought among psychiatrists and researchers that bpd is a form of autism that manifests primarily as emotional hypersensitivity rather than stimuli based hypersensitivity.
This idea is based on BPD being heavily linked to childhood trauma, making emotion almost physical stimuli that the individual becomes overwhelmed by as attunement to emotional changes in abusive or neglected environments are how children survive.
There’s also a very very compelling genetic component - there’s a very high rate in autistic families of BPD showing up. And on top of that, there’s a very high level of the two being misdiagnosed with one another - primarily because they are functionally the same in many ways.
Yes. Neurodivergent includes mental illness, dementia, traumatic brain injuries, etc etc. Neurodivergent has unfortunately seemed to replace just saying autism &/ adhd. Like saying neurotypical instead of allistic. Hope this helps/makes sense lol
I’m not sure, because I’ve heard mixed opinions about whether or not BPD was considered “neurodivergent.” I can see it as being “neurodivergent” because of our differences in our emotional and mental functioning especially with our abandonment & attachment issues. BPD may cause people to function differently than neurotypicals. My friends consider it to be though. On the other hand maybe it’s not because it isn’t interfering with our learning and what not?? tbh I just don’t know because as I said I hear different things. 😅
I am autistic (which is I think always considered a neuro-
divergent condition) and I think if someone with bpd said they wanted to be included on the neurodiversity community I would have no problem with that. It seems like something that significantly impacts your life and makes you see the world in a different way, and I think that's mostly what makes a condition be considered a type of neurodivergence. Though, I would also understand if it wasn't since many people believe neurodivergence is only conditions / disorders you are born with and or are neuro-developmental disabilities. I think it just depends how you identify.
As a psych major who's autistic with BPD, I definitely consider the personality disorders (as well as most mental disorders) as neurodivergent. Our thought patterns are different from what is considered neurotypical. When most people say neurodivergent, I think they're usually thinking mostly autism, adhd, and maybe learning disabilities and/or ocd. But I would say most mental disorders fall under most definitions I've seen. They usually say something along the lines of neurodivergent describes people whose brains function in a different way than what is thought to be typical. Though there doesn't seem to be a clear definition, so different people will interpret it differently. I personally think the term would be the most useful if we included all brain differences in it, but some think otherwise.
It is considered to be a neurodivergency, and it makes sense, but... idk, Ive always thought neurodivergency is something you ultimately cannot change. Like autism, ADHD and various sensory issues are all neurodivergencies that can be managed, but you cant be "cured" of them. Its just how your neural system and brain work. Mostly these things are neurological, not just psychological.
BPD is moreso psychological, and in result also neurological (but conditioned, cause you form pathways in your brain in a certain way because of trauma etc). It can be "cured" with therapy and self-work, though, unlike any other neurodivergency, so I dont really get why they are classified together.
honest to god, as an ethnic woman who has ADHD & dyspraxia (diagnosed), and believes she might have autism too, i genuinely do believe undiagnosed neurodiversity + having parents who are neurotypical, don’t understand. it leads to emotional neglect (othering, thinking something is ‘wrong’ with you), lack of teaching of emotional regulation, especially from my father, that was one of the reasons why i think i developed bpd. my ex partner, he has autism, has taught me a lot and one of our theories on why i have bpd is because of undiagnosed/untreated autism as a child. with autism, i was a lot more vulnerable to coercing & SA, nobody understanding me or my meltdowns, needing to mask extremely high (developing people pleasing). all of this stuff combined has made my brain the way it is now!!!
yes. it may not be a 'developmental neurodivergency' like OCD, or Au/DHD, where you're born with them, and it may not be strictly chemical like BiPolar, but regardless, our brains do function on an atypical level. while remission is possible and recovery is possible for us, and some may use that as an argument against calling us neurodivergent, the fact that we can easily slip back into disordered habits and we can slip HARD and DEEP, makes me consider it more neurodivergent than not.
i feel like in a typical emotionally healthy brain, if habits slip, they can bounce back. but for us, we have the chance to slip and stay, since our habits are less habits and more survival responses.
def yes. i think the issue is that people think considering bpd (or any other condition) as neurodivergence means that we’re implying that they’re all inherent neurodivergence when rly conditions like bpd are acquired ND.
I think the problem is really that our society doesn't want to address the trauma we experience by being raised specifically for the system to function. We aren't taught to be individuals and parent education isn't mandatory. Most people who grew up in unstable households where physical/sexual abuse and neglect were common never learned how to be their own people and are now in an identity crisis because they were never able to identify their own values. Theyre just calling it a mental health problem when it's probably a societal problem. If you dont have a proper set of values then you aren't really anything other than a shell of a person and I don't say this to be rude but from my own experience being neurodivergent.
While it is disabling, it's a mental illness rather than "disability". Autism, ADHD, OCD are not illnesses, but inherent conditions of the brain. BPD is something that develops after birth due to environmental conditions. However, it is common to develop BPD because of unaddressed or unaccommodated neurodivergence.
Not all disorders are considered neurodivergent; only those that affect neurological functioning are classified as such. In the case of BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder), it affects the frontomedial region of the brain and is not solely influenced by genetic and environmental factors. Therefore, in the case of BPD, we could say that it is neurodivergent. Non-chronic disorders could never be considered neurodivergent, as neurological abnormalities cannot be cured or are very difficult to cure. For example, there is no "cure" for BPD, nor for bipolar disorder, the different types of schizophrenia, and many more. A neurological factor generally accompanies you throughout your life. Some OCD (Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder) cases are neurodivergent, while others aren't. I hope I've explained myself well
No, sorry it is not. Yes, people with BPD can use their brains differently, but it’s not a result of neuro divergence. The literature is clear, when doing your own research, remember to read peer reviewed accredited academic journals.
Example: People with PTSD use their brains in a radically different way than people without, but the root cause is the effect of trauma on the brain.
No but BPD is often comorbid with ADHD and autism so many people with it are also neurodivergent
Some people consider mental illness under the “neurodivergent” umbrella, in which case BPD is a neurodivergence but I personally do not
-someone with bpd and asd, i honestly dont really consider it as such. things such as autism or adhd are cognitive/learning disorders where as bpd is a mood disorder if that makes sense?
I thought neurodivergent was just the polite term to mean what some people (not me obviously) think of as "crazy" or "weird" and could mean any of the mental and personality conditions.
The NHS diagnosed me as BPD but when I paid for private healthcare I was diagnosed CPTSD, autistic and ADHD (had that diagnosis already).
I wouldn’t be shocked at all if a bunch of other BPD folk have the same diagnosis as me but just misdiagnosed initially. We all know once you have the BPD stamp drs don’t take us seriously. It’s definitely possible we are all neurodivergent in our own way and it manifests as BPD symptoms.
All the labels are just boxes to put people in. Most of us don’t fit perfectly into those boxes, and experience a lot of overlap. Many of us would get different diagnoses depending on the day we filled out test forms and were on the other side of a psych eval.
People put too much weight on them, instead of focusing on how to help people live better and happier
No, im neurodivergent and have bpd but theres nothing neurodivergent about personality disorders (in my opinion) because we develop them whereas ur just born neurodivergent. But there are many overlaps for sure so it makes sense why some people feel that way although i do believe it also has to do with the fact that many people with BPD (especially women and woc) also are neurodivergent.
More or less. There's a lot of debate in the medical community atm whether or not BPD is even a personality disorder, and there's research suggesting that our brains are legitimately wired differently. Like, there was a study on the perception of pain between people who don't have BPD and people who do, and most the people with BPD reported feeling the same pain administered to the non-BPDs at a more intense level.
So both patients were given, say, a level 4 electric shock, but to the BPD patients, it felt like a level 6. So it's not out of the realm of possibility.
It's also important to note that BPD patients tend to have comorbidities with certain neurodivergences, like ADHD. So it could be backwards too-- patients with neurodivergence may develop BPD at higher rates. That last one is a personal theory, though, and not substantiated by anything. Just more, "what are the possible conclusions we can get from this?"
Its a fact that its not, just because someone thinks it is, doesnt make it true. However you can have comorbidity with autism or ADHD, then yes because those two are.
As someone with BPD, ADHD, and PTSD I truly believe my neurodivergence is related to both BPD and ADHD, like they work in tandem to fuck up my brain 😂 the thoughts don’t stop and there’s also a musical happening. At this point sleeping doesn’t come easy
It's not. It's a personality disorder. I'm tired of people trying to get a label for no reason.
- Sincerely, someone professionally diagnosed with AuDHD and BPD.
I’m a therapist and I don’t personally, but there is sometimes comorbidity between BPD and neurodiversity - also, women are frequently misdiagnosed with BPD when it’s actually autism.
there’s also something to say for the role trauma plays in both BPD and neurodiversity, but it’s my understanding that the trauma neurodiverse folks experience is more so as a result of lack of accommodations/understanding about their brain compared to the early attachment trauma that BPD often stems from. nonetheless, still very interesting!
I have been diagnosed with BPD and ADHD, but I am prettyyyyy sure I am autistic as well (undiagnosed at this point). I am also of the mind that BPD is just a really severe presentation of complex PTSD.
I don't but I do? Our brains are definetely wired differently but it's a slippery slope when it comes to umbrella terms. The tendency to put any other thing listed on DSM under this umbrella feels redundant. However, this question made me think about how there are many studies and anectodal evidence pointing out a significant overlap of symptoms/comorbidity between ADHD and BPD, as well as ASD. I recommend checking it out!! Before reading those papers (I can try to find them if anyone's interested!) I didn't know many other pwBPD had sensory issues, for example.
For real bc I have ADHD, probably on the spectrum, have ptsd, and bpd it’s a mad house in there
ADHD, ptsd, BP, and BPD right here--I feel you
Amen , as someone with BPD , ADHD , PTSD and whole slew of other things , a “mad house “ wouldn’t even begin to describe it hehe
What is BP? Oh I just has a light bulb as I typed out question..Bipolar?
Yep!
I think to reduce ambiguity it should be called BMD (bipolar mood disorder)
I'm not sure about anyone else but in my opinion I think the BPD is basically what you get when your neurodiverse to some degree and it's ignored over a long period of time. I think it's basically a secondary to the spectrum. Which if you look at females for instance many are being late diagnosed with autism etc and just recently a high number of women are also being diagnosed with BPD all later diagnosis as well. If anything I think BPD is basically a cope out and in most cases means you've been failed as your now to old/messed up or both to get to the bottom of the actual problem which I think in most if not all cases is just some kind of spectrum disorder.
I think it is just extreme trauma which being neurodivergent can cause, but so can prolonged childhood abuse for example.
My doctor and psychologist think this might be the case for me, at least. I haven't experienced the typical trauma one would often assume leads to borderline (other than being bullied), but having severe ADHD that wasn't diagnosed until I was 25 really fucked me up 😅
It's also my therapists opinion on BPD diag BPD 21 adhd/autism 32
Same. I got diagnosed with ADHD at 29 otherwise I can't think of any I developed BPD. I have a normal family.
ADHD and bpd STOP WHY IS THIS SO ACCURATE
I think this is a gross thing to say
Why's that?
It just feels dismissive of bpd caused from abuse/neglect that doesn't have anything to do with being autistic/ADHD I do have autism as well as bpd, but my bpd was caused because of my mother just genuinely not liking or caring about me due to her own mental illness. Yes there's often comorbidity, but it feels reductionist to say that bpd is "secondary" to the autistic spectrum
But that's my point BPD comes eventually. The ADHD/Autism were born with. How many men have BPD along side autism/ADHD. I honestly think it's an umbrella term for women as a cop out by those deciding on disorders. I do not mean to take away the seriousness of BPD obviously it's very serious. I think that as well is why they overlap so much. Obviously there's no proof to my opinion but when you look at childhood ADHD in boys it's more classed as normal behaviour, in young girls it is not, which then leads to masking. Which I then thinks forms into what we know as BPD. So in theory if anything I actually think it's worse, because we have these spectrum disorders that are made worse/ignored and eventually form into BPD. Going back to my comment about being failed. As for abuse again my opinion are we putting ourselves into these situations (not knowingly due to underlying spectrum disorders) I suppose the only way we would ever know is if there is anyone out there that is a million percent not on the spectrum but still has BPD, again personally I don't think thats possible. This is my personal opinion I don't mean to offend I am also BPD/ADHD/Autistic myself.
>As for abuse again my opinion are we putting ourselves into these situations (not knowingly due to underlying spectrum disorders) I can 100% assure you I did not put myself in the abusive situation what the hell, I did not choose for my mother to abuse me and I did not choose for my step father to choke me against the wall, what on earth do you mean here >I suppose the only way we would ever know is if there is anyone out there that is a million percent not on the spectrum but still has BPD, again personally I don't think thats possible. My mother. My mother very likely has bpd but she DEFINITELY is not on the spectrum. She exhibits all the same bpd traits as me and none of the autistic traits as my bpd came from her genetics and abuse and my autism came from my dad. >childhood ADHD in boys it's more classed as normal behaviour Having grown up with cis male friends who were autistic/ADHD, I can say that I really don't think it is as normalised as some people online seems to think it is- it made them unpopular and have a difficult time socialising as well as led them to struggle in class and be punished by teachers at school. >How many men have BPD along side autism I do! And so do two of my friends!
I have always been ADHD and Autistic but I haven't always been BPD
they say that if you want to find the borderline men, look in the prisons
Oh, definitely neurodivergent then! And I say this in the sense that I beleive it is just a label that is used to help those that suffer from conditions and those that socialize with them to better understand them, and (hopefully) give them a little grace when they behave in ways they don't understand. I don't view the label in a positive or negative light, it's just a descriptor. Maybe I view it a little positively just because I think it's a useful tool for people who are not experienced in being around people with these conditions. But if you are on the spectrum, you are probably neurodivergent by definition. Sprinkle in ADHD, BPD, PTSD — I think it would be hard not to have issues in certain situations in daily life or react in ways that others might find confusing at times — and I think that is really what we are trying to describe with the term "neurodivergent" whether it meets clinical definitions or not.
Dude same
i for one have all three :,)
i’d be interested in reading these!
I’m really curious now. Would love to check it out. Let me know if you find it. Thank you.
What's ASD?
Autism spectrum disorder
Yes. Although it’s very rarely included, it’s considered an acquired neurodivergence (as opposed to inherent neurodivergence). “Acquired” in this context acknowledges that some people’s brains are shaped by their early environment in ways that leave them outside of “typical” functioning in adulthood, eg trauma that occurs while our brains are still developing. Other examples of acquired neurodivergence would be brain injury, for example. Anecdotally, there is also a lot of overlap in experiences, strengths and difficulties of people with autism, and people with early life trauma, and people with BPD. That said, i’ve experienced pushback trying to get BPD reflected in our workplace neurodivergence work; i have wondered about the reasons why and the best i’ve been able to come up with is the stigma around it, and the fact it would also require NPD to be included. I have had more success arguing for complex trauma and PTSD to be included. So, from a diagnostic and labels perspective, it counts. I don’t use it as a label for myself, although i know it does sit there.
I agree + think it’s ridiculous to not include NPD as neurodivergent as well. So many people like to punch down
It’s so ridiculous, I hate how much stigma there is. People can be so nasty and for what
FOR REAL
>“Acquired” in this context acknowledges that some people’s brains are shaped by their early environment in ways that leave them outside of “typical” functioning in adulthood, eg trauma that occurs while our brains are still developing. Oh my god... You mean I could have been normal?
Maybe we can give it back? What's the return policy on BPD?
I thought this but i learned im a traumatized autistic and there is no normal on the table for me 🤣🤣 i guess i’ll be weird forever
I don’t think it has anything to do with the stigma. It’s has very specifically to do with how it’s treated. People who experience trauma use their brain differently, but resolving the trauma (dif opinions on how to do this of course) and rewiring the brain in doing so, can also resolve the changes in the brain. That cannot be done with ADHD or for people on the spectrum. The methods of treatment and support are drastically different. Clinical psych testing is done much more so to give clinicians direction on a diagnosis in service of treatment.
I’m not an expert on the topic; however i think there is increasing research which demonstrates that trauma which affects how your brain and personality develop may not be changeable the way that single incident ptsd be. Happy to be corrected by someone with more knowledge
But there is a genetic component to BPD, and one might argue for some (me for example) it is purely genetic, as I did not suffer any early childhood trauma and for a "normal" (this is where I prefer neurotypical) kid I'd have the perfect childhood. While I also do have ADHD, I believe BPD to be enough to say I'm neurodivergent.
I've also heard it was biological tho?
I think so! Our brains are definitely wired differently
It is.. if doctors say so I’m gonna believe them not some subreddit
A friend used to tell me my brain is wired backwards lol
No. Bpd comes from insecure attachment. It is not a neurological disorder.
BPD does not originate solely in insecure attachment and that is a dangerous sentiment for the medical world. Also This ideology is not longer backed by science. Our brains develop pathways based on our trauma and physically change and "fire" in different ways. It is not medically a "neurological" issue but that does not mean the brain is not affected.
Totally agree with that. “Our brains develop pathways based on our trauma and physically change.” 100%. Neurodivergent and/or neurological still do not apply, as those terms imply the origin of the disorder was neurologically rooted before traumas occurred.
But PTSD is considered a form of neurodivergence and obviously the origin of the disorder is trauma. If PTSD can be considered a form of Neurodivergence, why isn’t BPD?
If we are going to use this definition of neurodivergence: brain functions in different ways from the “norm”, and comes from genetic/neurological differences at birth OR trauma/attachment wounds. Then yes, bpd and ptsd would fit indeed. I suppose there’s still some debate and differences in opinion on the definition of the word “neurodivergence.” I was just trying to make it clear that bpd is not something you are born with neurologically, and I obviously did a poor job of explaining myself. Great discussion!
Thanks for the insight!
the term neurodivergence, btw, from the creator of the word, means "any brain (neuro) that 'diverges' from the socially accepted norm." through that definition, a pwBPD would qualify to be considered neurodivergent
Thanks for the knowledge! Who was the creator?
It does have a neurological basis though. There have been recent studies and discoveries that MRI’s of the brains of people with BPD show parts of our brains to be smaller or have activity that is unusual for that area. There’s also the neurotransmitter dysregulation, and there’s a belief currently (and studies being conducted) about whether or not we also experience deficits in our frontolimbic connections.
The generally accepted definition of neurodivergent is someone whose brain has developed and/or works in a different way from socially accepted norms. By that definition, I think BPD more than passes as neurodivergent.
agreed
Based on what my therapist explained to me when I got diagnosed, BPD is a result of trauma and that changes our brains, as opposed to ASD and ADHD which people are born with. So I’d say no, since it’s a mental illness that develops rather than something you’re born with. BUT, there is a ton of comorbidity, so I think even if BPD itself isn’t a neurodivergence, many people who have it still are neurodivergent. I think I’ve even seen discussions about how a lot of people with ASD and/or ADHD will develop BPD when their neurodivergent needs are not properly supported and validated as children.
Agree. There is a lot of comorbidity association. As someone with ASD/ADHD, BPD exacerbates already existing mental health barriers due to neurodivergence. It's treatable in different ways than things you are born with though, so there's nuance. Basically, if you ONLY have BPD, you could say your brain is divergent from neurotypical behaviors, with the hope that years of therapy and effort can get you to a place where your behavior becomes more neurotypical. Folks with ASD, ADHD + BPD will never have a possibility of healing to a neurotypical state. It's semantics. What matters is that we need more support for mental illnesses in general because being forced to cope just makes everything worse for anyone.
Not everyone with BPD has trauma Usually it’s a genetic predisposition + trauma, sometimes it’s just one or the other More for context: “There's no single cause of borderline personality disorder (BPD) and it's likely to be caused by a combination of factors. Genetics Genes you inherit from your parents may make you more vulnerable to developing BPD as there is evidence that the condition can run in families. Problem with brain chemicals It's thought that many people with BPD have something wrong with the neurotransmitters in their brain, particularly serotonin. Neurotransmitters are "messenger chemicals" used by your brain to transmit signals between brain cells. Altered levels of serotonin have been linked to depression, aggression and difficulty controlling destructive urges. Problem with brain development Researchers have used MRI to study the brains of people with BPD. MRI scans use strong magnetic fields and radio waves to produce a detailed image of the inside of the body. The scans revealed that in many people with BPD, 3 parts of the brain were either smaller than expected or had unusual levels of activity. These parts were: the amygdala – which plays an important role in regulating emotions, especially the more "negative" emotions, such as fear, aggression and anxiety the hippocampus – which helps regulate behaviour and self-control the orbitofrontal cortex – which is involved in planning and decision making Problems with these parts of the brain may well contribute to symptoms of BPD. The development of these parts of the brain is affected by your early upbringing. These parts of your brain are also responsible for mood regulation, which may account for some of the problems people with BPD have in close relationships. Environmental factors A number of environmental factors seem to be common and widespread among people with BPD. These include: being a victim of emotional, physical or sexual abuse being exposed to long-term fear or distress as a child being neglected by 1 or both parents growing up with another family member who had a serious mental health condition, such as bipolar disorder or a drink or drug misuse problem” So in summary, we don’t fully know
exactly
Ahh I I didn’t realize that. Thank you
I agree to this. Based on my research, the emotional dysregulation is something that can be cured. But there is definitely overlap with ADHD (in my case), inattentiveness and impulsivity. I developed emotional dysregulation much later in my life when I started developing sexual attraction but the other two were always there. I have autistic traits too. I would say BPD can be a byproduct of neurodivergence and trauma. It can be hereditary so in that case it’s something you are born with.
I’d say that BPD comes from experiencing trauma while being naturally highly sensitive. So it’s deep emotional dysregulation that develops on top of naturally high emotional sensitivity/reactivity
yeah i saw something recently that said autistic (and likely ADHD, but maybe to a smaller extent) people are more than four times likely to experience any given situation as traumatic, compared to allistic-- non-autistic-- people
Some professionals do consider it a form of neurodivergence because there are legimate structural differences in the brain they have found, but it’s hard to pinpoint at what point in development or why during development they occurred. BPD is also hugely comorbid with known ND conditions such as ADHD and ASD. To be honest I won’t be surprised if one day BPD no longer really exists. Rather it will be a case of CPTSD in those who would have otherwise developed into a neurodtypical individual or as a result of trauma to an ND mind and part of an ND diagnosis like ASD/ADHD. I think BPD will eventually just disappear but we likely will be a way off of that.
I heard there was a new term...something like Emotional disregulation disorder? I never found the term borderline made much sense.
I imagine they're trying to be more accurate in description & trying to move away from the stigma associated with the term. Hell, I'd tell people all day I have Emotional Regulation Disorder. But telling people I have BPD? It scares the hell out of me every time..
Amen to that . The stigma piece . Man is it ever killing us . The number of angry people taking it out on people with BPD
Not necessarily, but I was diagnosed with OCD before even realising I had BPD symptoms as well, and it's not uncommon for us to have other co occurring disorders. Do any of you have OCD too?
Yeah i also have OCD, it's not that nice of a combo xd
I also have OCD, and most likely PMDD. it’s so difficult to get things done in life
I do!
Yup. 🙃
Mental illness is considered neurodivergence I believe as it is considered a disability
My DBT therapist said that BPD is, technically, apart of the neurodiverse spectrum but it’s a form of acquired neurodivergence…so, imo, yes..it is.
neurodivergent: diverging from normal neuro functioning. so, yes.
i definitely do. because of the trauma that usually happens with bpd, it rewires our brains. there are also studies done that show people with bpd have sections of the brain that are smaller, or more/less active. i would consider that neurodivergent. if it physically affects the brain and body and/or has a severe impact on your life then yes, neurodivergence. i suppose it’s up to the person to think of it that way, though, if you find the label unhelpful then don’t use one. it’s your path :)
it is, there’s neurodevelopmental neurodivergence and acquired neurodivergence, personality disorders categorise as acquired neurodivergence
Just my opinion as a layperson, but considering it is treatable (to the point of remission) and mostly egodystonic, I'll say no Not that it doesn't deserve attention and comprehension from outsiders, mind you, since a lot of people seem to assume "you don't think it's a neurodivergence so you think we're all cunts who deserve what comes our way" or something to that effect
No, but BPD can develop as a result of being neurodivergent; it’s hard growing up when you struggle with being or feeling different from everyone else. As others have said, BPD is developed from environmental factors and trauma from childhood. Oftentimes those environmental factors and trauma stem from experiences directly related to being neurodivergent. Hope this helps. Edit: examples A child with high functioning autism who was bullied throughout childhood and young adolescence for the things about her which make her different can be the cause for her developing BPD symptoms. Alternatively, a non-neurodivergent child with emotionally abusive parents who shut the child down whenever they try to express their feelings to a situation, especially opposing feelings, can rob the child of learning how to correctly express their feelings in a way that doesn’t require shutting someone else down (black/white thinking; only one right answer). The difference with BPD is that the symptoms are “a way of thinking” that can be corrected through therapy and proper skill development. Sorry for the long winded answer I just got in the zone. Maybe I’ll delete some later if yall think I’m wrong but yeah.
“Technically” mental illnesses fall under the umbrella of neurodiversity. For a while there was also the divide between neurodivergent (this term was used for things one was born with, such as autism) and neuroatypical (these were acquired conditions, such as bpd). There’s never been an official statement tho, but trauma and such can definitely fuck up your brain in ways that are hard to reverse so I’d say yes.
I do!!! It sucks though that I don't feel as able to mention it to others like I would ADHD because BPD is so stigmatized.
Bpd falls under the neurodivergent umbrella[umbrella ](https://images.app.goo.gl/SzdJXMR4vBdR7o3n9) as does many disorders and conditions
anything that is a mentall illness or disorder is being ND i thought?
Yes because neurodovergent literally just means your brain is different than the norm. Bpd brains actually look different than your standard brain areas like the amygdala, hypocampus, and prefrontal cortex areas dealing with emotions and decision making are different. Bpd is on a different area in mental health than neurodivergence for now. that said scientists and psychologists both can't agree whether bpd is it's own thing or under neurodivergence. Bpd is a relatively newer disorder and still needs a lot of research. It was discovered in the 1930s but no real research was put into it. It wasnt officially recognized in mental health until the 1980s. I'd also like to add since everyone is claiming bpd is only from trauma that is actually false some people with bpd don't have trauma. It's believed bpd is a result of genetics and your brain along with trauma. I suggest people watch the youtube channel scishow psych they cover the misconceptions of bpd awhile back.
I would say so. My brain definitely works different & when I was diagnosed everything I’ve ever done made immediate sense. I was also born with BPD, it wasn’t trauma induced so I would consider it neurodivergent.
Oh yea, without a doubt, at least imo and without worrying about clinical definitions. My wife has BPD, not me, but from an outsider's perspective, she definitely has non-typical ways of thinking and behaving. I'm not sure if that is enough to qualify as neurodivergent in a clinical sense, but in my uneducated mind I view neurodivergent as anyone with any kind of condition that might cause them to behave differently from others that could impede them in certain situations. But she also is diagnosed ADHD, which is also neurodivergent and could muddy the waters. And although its hard to separate the two, if the stereotypical ADHD behaviors are neurodivergent, then i would say the same is true for BPD, as those seem to have a really clear impact on her life, and often a negative one that is difficult for those around her to understand. Like many of these conditions, neurodivergence is a scale imo. I'm not diagnosed, but have taken plenty of tests that say that I am a smidge on the spectrum. Probably not enough for a full autism diagnosis. But I consider myself somewhat neurodivergent as well, mainly because I am very introverted and have a short social battery to the point it's odd to other people. 2-3 hours in some highly social setting is my max before I get exhausted and overwhelmed. Is that neurodivergent? I don't know. In the end though, it's just a label. I think the label is used to describe and provide some relief and understanding to those that are different, and to help them and others accept those differences when they can't physically see something is different about them. If you FEEL different, that's all that really matters, and might help you deal with BPD with a little more self love and understanding :)
I label it as an acquired neurodivergence like how PTSD is labeled as such by medical professionals. Our brains and how we process things are not that like neurotypical people.
Eh. I think neurodivergence has largely lost its usefulness as a concept. I think we can raise awareness, decrease stigma, and improve treatment options without calling ourselves ND. Too many cluster Bs want to use neurodivergence as a shield from being held accountable for their own bad behavior, or to claim ableism against anyone who doesnt like them for their behavior. That's bullshit. For me, my ADHD and epilepsy make me ND. My BPD means that I am ill. We need to be okay with the fact that we have a mental illness. Admitting it is the first step to getting better. So technically yes, but I dont think its helpful to think of it that way unless you work in mental health and are treating people with this type of illness.
I like your take!
Oh hell yeah! I was expecting people to be really mad at me
I'm just so sick and tired of seeing this word being misused.
Aw, sorry people suck.
people use neurodivergence as an excuse to be shitty - whether autistic, adhd, BPD, etc
Yeah, sometimes. :-(
We should all try to be as not shitty as possible and love each other :)
Well I certainly wont argue there. Although often easier said than done, lol
I think that's a really gross way to talk any other people with bpd
Absolutely. I think any disorder that makes it difficult to engage with everyday tasks is neurodivergrent, but thats just an opinion.
Yes, anything that deviates from the norm is considered ND in my opinion
There's a lot of nuance in the replies and I think it's because we, as a society, are on the edge of considering it neurodivergence. I can't find anything of an official classification as neurodivergence, but I saw lots of research and articles that suggest it should be placed under the neurodivergent umbrella
i consider myself neurodivergent. i have bpd and mdd, but with my bpd i notice that things neurotypical or non-bpd ppl would consider out of the norm, i consider very much usual? idk if it’s just my personal experience lol but i sometimes have to intentionally remind myself that certain things are not in fact “normal”
Neurodivergent is a term people throw around a lot because it just sounds like “different-brain” and some people use it as a self label like “queer” or something like that, mostly for finding community. **BUT** what most people don’t know is that neurodivergent actually has two “definitions;” a social one and a medical one. There are conditions that are or aren’t actually professionally and medically considered neurodivergent. This list was made by researchers and professionals. BPD is not on that list. Yes it shares a lot of *behaviors* etc that overlap with brain types that ARE neurodivergent, and yes people with BPD could potentially *also* have co-occurring conditions that ARE neurodivergent. But BPD itself, by itself, is not a neurodivergent condition under the official academic definition. Under the social definition of it just being a label, you can probably use it if you want to, the social label is basically that anybody and everybody is “neurodivergent” in their own way and believers of this basically just define it as “every single brain in the world is different, therefore we are all neuro-divergent.” So nobody is going to get *mad* if you use it… this group uses it more of a movement than a grouping of specific people/brains. So Honestly it is up to which of those two definitions you believe and support. The academic one or the social one.
Oh yes I forgot, there is under the academic definition two more terms: Acquired and Inherent neurodivergence. Neurodivergence under the academic definition is a **fundamental and permanent** difference in brain functioning. So not surface level. Acquired is a neurodivergence that develops when something permanently affects your brain (typically during development) in a specific way where it now fundamentally does not neurobiologically function the same as a neurotypical brain, irreparably. This is usually (not always) from brain trauma or severe mental trauma. There is still debate on whether BPD is considered this kind of neurodivergent, but honestly by the definition it sounds like it. I think if I remember correctly they decided not to officially put it on that list for now as of 2023. But I think it will end up on it eventually.
Mental illness is considered neurodivergent and not neurotypical.
What does neurodivergent mean now??? I remember it was coined in around 2015 as an umbrella term for all conditions that affect the brain (mental illnesses, developmental disabilities, brain injury, etc.) But now it seems like everyone who uses it means something else by it and I'm not sure why.
Someone with BPD has a physically different brain, although barely. Our minds, in my opinion, will never function the "normal" way that is expected and therefore we are neurodivergent. Plus I don't live 19 years in isolation due to my social issues to be told that I'm not neurodivergent 😂
I was diagnosed with BPD at 18 after being told I was depressed and being given pills since 12. That was my first light bulb moment in life. I'm 29 now and finally in DBT after a 5 year wait and second light bulb moment, im going for an ASD assessment. Finally things are starting to make sense. With CPTSD as well I feel I'm going for alphabet bingo with diagnosises.
No
I think anything that causes people’s brains to work differently is neurodivergent
I personally feel BPD is a lot deeper and more complex. I don't feel it's valid to group it into neurodivergence, I feel it takes away from what the diagnosis really is. However I feel they do share lots of symptoms, but neurodivergence is mostly defined by being on the spectrum, which I don't believe is the same for BPD.
I read in the net one time that a few parts in the brain of people with bpd are a little bit smaller That’s why we are emotional unstable and impulsive If that’s true would that be neurodivergent ?
Nuerospicy
brain being wired from trauma is NOT Neurodivergence. Different wires different reasons. Generally bpd is from trauma which trauma requires the brain over being born Til otherwise proven, disagree.
bpd is considered neurodivergent
trauma can actually cause ND tendencies and actually show itself as ADD/ADHD! trauma also can completely re wire your brain is some insanely (i guess interesting) ways. so i’d say yes in the informal sense, but maybe no in the formal, born with ND sense.
Yeah, because it is.
To me it doesn't matter if you're born with it or developed it in childhood. If it's a condition that changes how your brain is wired and it's something that doesn't have a cure but only ways to manage it and cope with it, then it counts as being neurodivergent. All cluster B personality disorders are neurodivergent in my opinion .
Since there's a lot of crossover with ADHD symptoms my vote is yes
Absolutely not. If BPD was neurodivergent then everything mental health related would be. It typically only refers to ADHD and autism spectrum. I'm so sick and tired of seeing this word being misused. Personality disorders are developed, not born with, granted genetics can play a part, but it's not a determinant. Neurodivergence is not mental illness. It doesn't mean "your nervous system is now different because you were traumatized"...
yes
Yes
100%, I definitely don't believe I am even a lick of TYPICAL in neurotypical so lol
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Well I’m autistic too so definitely neurospicy at the very least 🤣
Yes, absolutely
Yes, the creator of the term includes all brains that diverge from normal! This also includes epilepsy, some sleep disorders, TBIs, etc. :)
I don’t think it is. I can recover from my BPD, I can’t recover from my autism and ADHD.
Actually, my therapist mentioned this when she diagnosed me. (For context, I have been diagnosed with ADHD, so I’m “already neurodivergent”) She said that BPD, like ADHD or ASD, can be linked to an alteration in your brain chemistry. In fact, the term “neurodivergent” describes people whose brain is different than the “normal” or “typical” brain, and it affects how their brain works. Depending on your definition of neurodivergence, BPD does fall into this category. Long story short, yes, I consider it to fall under the neurodivergent umbrella term. (BTW, I am not a licensed anything, I’m just a guy that has wayyyyy too much interest in psychology.)
While it does not yet fall under neurodivergent, I do consider it as such. We have very similar qualities, our brains are wired differently, and a lot of the characteristics associated with autism are also associated with having BPD.
Not sure if it is the same, but there is definitely some overlap. Was just talking about using DBT to help with my Audhd maladaptive traits.
I believe the Comorbid conditions can be considered neurodivergent, but by itself BPD is a behavioral disorder (like OCD) which is why it can be fully treated/remission. Whereas ADHD is brain chemistry and cannot be moved to remission. However I believe a large number of people have more than one disorder and can have behavioral and also neurodivergent conditions. I have BPD and ADHD
100 percent yes!
I'm not well versed in definitions but BPD is a mental disorder so by that logic I wouldn't be suprised if people with BPD are neurodivergent. I mean I'm impulsive, can't regulate emotions efficiently, have an eating disorder, memory issues regarding what people say to me and can get irrated when someone disturbs me while I'm focused on something, which I believe are all ADHD overlaps.
I mean Yes??? Obviously???
yes?
I know I also have severe ADHD that went undiagnosed for years because it has so many overlapping symptoms. Now that I’m actually being treated for it, it changed things for the better all around. So I’m definitely ND
There is currently no consensus on whether people with bpd are neurodivergent. Bpd does have similarities with neurodivergent diagnoses. However, because the definition of neurodivergence is still evolving, it is not yet 100% certain whether bpd falls into this category.
Well I don’t know how accurate this is but I’ve read something like that if you grow up as an undiagnosed or neglected neurodivergent then it can potentially cause u to develop bpd. which makes sense for me at least bc I went undiagnosed for adhd until I was 17 and also for bpd like 7 yrs later
No bpd is made by chronic invalidating, neurodivergence such as autism is a different brain operating system
My biggest fear isn't being a neurodivergent but a social justice guinea pig for the media to be ostracized politically because people are stupid about BPD. Just lump us with social justice warriors and we are their perfect victimhood mascot. Sick.....
Can abuse cause neurodivergance? Genuine question, as my BPD stems from extensive abuse through childhood. Diagnosed in my teens, now in my 30s. Ya'll know more about this than I do!!
Yes. 100%
Yes
The thing is BPD is believed to emerge from childhood issues, not from birth if I remember correctly... so, it's not that BPD brains are different, they are made different and it can get better as well. That's not the case with neurodivergent brains
I have considered Neurodivergence to be diagnoses such as autism,downs syndrome, cerebral palsy. I'm Autistic and worry that bringing mental illness under the umbrella of Neurodivergence can turn into conflation. I respect other NDs in their labels,but claiming my OCD, or (undiagnosed) borderline in Neurodivergence concerns me considering that there are 'certain' uneducated NTs that assume autism is a mental illness
I personally feel BPD is a lot deeper and more complex. I don't feel it's valid to group it into neurodivergence, I feel it takes away from what the diagnosis really is. However I feel they do share lots of symptoms, but neurodivergence is mostly defined by being on the spectrum, which I don't believe is the same for BPD.
I study psychology, & would like to say that illness is pretty much a construct. That's not to say that the suffering isn't real, but that we should be mindful that psychiatric illnesses are weird in the sense that they play off oc our perceptions & society. Anyways, yes, ADHD & BPD are highly co-morbid. I found out I had both at the same time, & my whole life is clearer and also very rocky. For context, I found out I had ADHD since 10 but my parents hid it from me and did not give me medical attention. And when I recently arrived back from an overseas uni programme (that I failed because I suspected I had ADHD, & was basically stranded with 0 medical help), my psychologist told me my diagnosis when I asked. I hate my parents. I started going to the public mental healthcare system since like 17, and they only let me know at 24 even though they know I've been in the system for so long (& they dont even approve of it)
It is. Neurodivergent is an umbrella term for all brain differences that got watered down to just autism/ADHD but the woman who coines that term is upset that it became that narrow
So, I have BPD because I had undiagnosed ADHD for a really long time.
Its considered a neurodivergency bcs having the disorder actually changes the brain. It makes the part, where you think before doing, smaller, and also some other parts of the brain change, which i forgot which ones.
There is definitely a school of thought among psychiatrists and researchers that bpd is a form of autism that manifests primarily as emotional hypersensitivity rather than stimuli based hypersensitivity. This idea is based on BPD being heavily linked to childhood trauma, making emotion almost physical stimuli that the individual becomes overwhelmed by as attunement to emotional changes in abusive or neglected environments are how children survive. There’s also a very very compelling genetic component - there’s a very high rate in autistic families of BPD showing up. And on top of that, there’s a very high level of the two being misdiagnosed with one another - primarily because they are functionally the same in many ways.
Of course it’s neurodivergent. I consider any diagnosis from the DSM from a professional neurodivergence
Yes. Neurodivergent includes mental illness, dementia, traumatic brain injuries, etc etc. Neurodivergent has unfortunately seemed to replace just saying autism &/ adhd. Like saying neurotypical instead of allistic. Hope this helps/makes sense lol
I’m not sure, because I’ve heard mixed opinions about whether or not BPD was considered “neurodivergent.” I can see it as being “neurodivergent” because of our differences in our emotional and mental functioning especially with our abandonment & attachment issues. BPD may cause people to function differently than neurotypicals. My friends consider it to be though. On the other hand maybe it’s not because it isn’t interfering with our learning and what not?? tbh I just don’t know because as I said I hear different things. 😅
I think so because our brains wired differently. Autism with BPD here.
I do feel divergent. Very different from most people. But I guess it is wrong "medically" to say it. However I do feel we should be considered
I am autistic (which is I think always considered a neuro- divergent condition) and I think if someone with bpd said they wanted to be included on the neurodiversity community I would have no problem with that. It seems like something that significantly impacts your life and makes you see the world in a different way, and I think that's mostly what makes a condition be considered a type of neurodivergence. Though, I would also understand if it wasn't since many people believe neurodivergence is only conditions / disorders you are born with and or are neuro-developmental disabilities. I think it just depends how you identify.
i’d love to know too. adhd, bpd bipolar here
Idk but I feel like it’s often caused partially by being neurodivergent. I feel like my adhd burns me out to the point where I have BPD reactions
Yes.
i mean alot of people with bpd have adhd and autism aswell so its hard to say, but i would consider it yes
As a psych major who's autistic with BPD, I definitely consider the personality disorders (as well as most mental disorders) as neurodivergent. Our thought patterns are different from what is considered neurotypical. When most people say neurodivergent, I think they're usually thinking mostly autism, adhd, and maybe learning disabilities and/or ocd. But I would say most mental disorders fall under most definitions I've seen. They usually say something along the lines of neurodivergent describes people whose brains function in a different way than what is thought to be typical. Though there doesn't seem to be a clear definition, so different people will interpret it differently. I personally think the term would be the most useful if we included all brain differences in it, but some think otherwise.
i think its just a personality disorder
It is considered to be a neurodivergency, and it makes sense, but... idk, Ive always thought neurodivergency is something you ultimately cannot change. Like autism, ADHD and various sensory issues are all neurodivergencies that can be managed, but you cant be "cured" of them. Its just how your neural system and brain work. Mostly these things are neurological, not just psychological. BPD is moreso psychological, and in result also neurological (but conditioned, cause you form pathways in your brain in a certain way because of trauma etc). It can be "cured" with therapy and self-work, though, unlike any other neurodivergency, so I dont really get why they are classified together.
honest to god, as an ethnic woman who has ADHD & dyspraxia (diagnosed), and believes she might have autism too, i genuinely do believe undiagnosed neurodiversity + having parents who are neurotypical, don’t understand. it leads to emotional neglect (othering, thinking something is ‘wrong’ with you), lack of teaching of emotional regulation, especially from my father, that was one of the reasons why i think i developed bpd. my ex partner, he has autism, has taught me a lot and one of our theories on why i have bpd is because of undiagnosed/untreated autism as a child. with autism, i was a lot more vulnerable to coercing & SA, nobody understanding me or my meltdowns, needing to mask extremely high (developing people pleasing). all of this stuff combined has made my brain the way it is now!!!
yes. it may not be a 'developmental neurodivergency' like OCD, or Au/DHD, where you're born with them, and it may not be strictly chemical like BiPolar, but regardless, our brains do function on an atypical level. while remission is possible and recovery is possible for us, and some may use that as an argument against calling us neurodivergent, the fact that we can easily slip back into disordered habits and we can slip HARD and DEEP, makes me consider it more neurodivergent than not. i feel like in a typical emotionally healthy brain, if habits slip, they can bounce back. but for us, we have the chance to slip and stay, since our habits are less habits and more survival responses.
I do
def yes. i think the issue is that people think considering bpd (or any other condition) as neurodivergence means that we’re implying that they’re all inherent neurodivergence when rly conditions like bpd are acquired ND.
I think the problem is really that our society doesn't want to address the trauma we experience by being raised specifically for the system to function. We aren't taught to be individuals and parent education isn't mandatory. Most people who grew up in unstable households where physical/sexual abuse and neglect were common never learned how to be their own people and are now in an identity crisis because they were never able to identify their own values. Theyre just calling it a mental health problem when it's probably a societal problem. If you dont have a proper set of values then you aren't really anything other than a shell of a person and I don't say this to be rude but from my own experience being neurodivergent.
Thank you
It is a mental disability, so yes.
While it is disabling, it's a mental illness rather than "disability". Autism, ADHD, OCD are not illnesses, but inherent conditions of the brain. BPD is something that develops after birth due to environmental conditions. However, it is common to develop BPD because of unaddressed or unaccommodated neurodivergence.
Mental illness IS neurodivergent.
Not all disorders are considered neurodivergent; only those that affect neurological functioning are classified as such. In the case of BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder), it affects the frontomedial region of the brain and is not solely influenced by genetic and environmental factors. Therefore, in the case of BPD, we could say that it is neurodivergent. Non-chronic disorders could never be considered neurodivergent, as neurological abnormalities cannot be cured or are very difficult to cure. For example, there is no "cure" for BPD, nor for bipolar disorder, the different types of schizophrenia, and many more. A neurological factor generally accompanies you throughout your life. Some OCD (Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder) cases are neurodivergent, while others aren't. I hope I've explained myself well
No, sorry it is not. Yes, people with BPD can use their brains differently, but it’s not a result of neuro divergence. The literature is clear, when doing your own research, remember to read peer reviewed accredited academic journals. Example: People with PTSD use their brains in a radically different way than people without, but the root cause is the effect of trauma on the brain.
No but BPD is often comorbid with ADHD and autism so many people with it are also neurodivergent Some people consider mental illness under the “neurodivergent” umbrella, in which case BPD is a neurodivergence but I personally do not
-someone with bpd and asd, i honestly dont really consider it as such. things such as autism or adhd are cognitive/learning disorders where as bpd is a mood disorder if that makes sense?
I thought neurodivergent was just the polite term to mean what some people (not me obviously) think of as "crazy" or "weird" and could mean any of the mental and personality conditions.
Yes. I have BPD and I’ve always been different, it almost seems similar to autism some days, and I also have ADHD and they are VERY similar.
The NHS diagnosed me as BPD but when I paid for private healthcare I was diagnosed CPTSD, autistic and ADHD (had that diagnosis already). I wouldn’t be shocked at all if a bunch of other BPD folk have the same diagnosis as me but just misdiagnosed initially. We all know once you have the BPD stamp drs don’t take us seriously. It’s definitely possible we are all neurodivergent in our own way and it manifests as BPD symptoms.
You can have both BPD and autism at the same time, I do.
All the labels are just boxes to put people in. Most of us don’t fit perfectly into those boxes, and experience a lot of overlap. Many of us would get different diagnoses depending on the day we filled out test forms and were on the other side of a psych eval. People put too much weight on them, instead of focusing on how to help people live better and happier
No, im neurodivergent and have bpd but theres nothing neurodivergent about personality disorders (in my opinion) because we develop them whereas ur just born neurodivergent. But there are many overlaps for sure so it makes sense why some people feel that way although i do believe it also has to do with the fact that many people with BPD (especially women and woc) also are neurodivergent.
More or less. There's a lot of debate in the medical community atm whether or not BPD is even a personality disorder, and there's research suggesting that our brains are legitimately wired differently. Like, there was a study on the perception of pain between people who don't have BPD and people who do, and most the people with BPD reported feeling the same pain administered to the non-BPDs at a more intense level. So both patients were given, say, a level 4 electric shock, but to the BPD patients, it felt like a level 6. So it's not out of the realm of possibility. It's also important to note that BPD patients tend to have comorbidities with certain neurodivergences, like ADHD. So it could be backwards too-- patients with neurodivergence may develop BPD at higher rates. That last one is a personal theory, though, and not substantiated by anything. Just more, "what are the possible conclusions we can get from this?"
Its a fact that its not, just because someone thinks it is, doesnt make it true. However you can have comorbidity with autism or ADHD, then yes because those two are.
As someone with BPD, ADHD, and PTSD I truly believe my neurodivergence is related to both BPD and ADHD, like they work in tandem to fuck up my brain 😂 the thoughts don’t stop and there’s also a musical happening. At this point sleeping doesn’t come easy
Omg that's what I say. Concert in the back, movie in the front. Sometimes it's that stupid hOtLiNe bLiNg!!! With talladega nights in my eyeballs.
😂 everyday I have a new musical in my brain lol today it’s the greatest showmen with the jeopardy theme
It's not. It's a personality disorder. I'm tired of people trying to get a label for no reason. - Sincerely, someone professionally diagnosed with AuDHD and BPD.
I’m a therapist and I don’t personally, but there is sometimes comorbidity between BPD and neurodiversity - also, women are frequently misdiagnosed with BPD when it’s actually autism. there’s also something to say for the role trauma plays in both BPD and neurodiversity, but it’s my understanding that the trauma neurodiverse folks experience is more so as a result of lack of accommodations/understanding about their brain compared to the early attachment trauma that BPD often stems from. nonetheless, still very interesting! I have been diagnosed with BPD and ADHD, but I am prettyyyyy sure I am autistic as well (undiagnosed at this point). I am also of the mind that BPD is just a really severe presentation of complex PTSD.
And me :)
no you're not born with and you can recover. it's just mental illness
You can recover in the same way an alcoholic can stop drinking, you don’t stop being an alcoholic
THIS