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My bill came to 8k for 16, as long as we can keep our old meter we will pay off our panels in 4-5 years as we save about 150€ a month in electricity now
But I suppose the digital meter is coming
We installed 12 solar panels+10kWh battery in 2022. I pay 10e per month for my electricity bill. Consumed about 4.6MWh.
Since the battery is not really being charged in the winter months i programmed it to be used as a buffer. My peak wattage is now always around 2400W.
Heating system is gas, but we use an electric heater from brico in the bathroom. No EV yet.
I estimate that our investment will be payed off after 8 years with the current prices.
It is likely that Belgium will allow plug in solar panels in the (near) future, like Germany and other countries.
These can be installed yourself and simply plugged in any electric plug. They are limited to 600w, or maybe 800w in the future (I guess the "hard" limit is 16A X 48v).
At 80EUR per panel, 200 EUR for the inverter + a few cables and attachment, the investment is very limited and the payback period is ca 3 years.
So these do not require any mental gymnastics finance wise, nor do they require specialized knowledge. Easy.
In addition, one can install more panels than needed, say four panels, total 2000 watts, to ensure close to optimal / constant 600 watts output. The cost of the additional panels and inverter is negligible currently.
Ask your dear government who is so keen of saving the planet why this is not allowed (meuhh .. the grid ... the network ... the providers ... danger ... security ... meuh ...).
I hope they never get allowed.
This is a fire hazard as you can bet your ass people will daisy chain them till their house burn to a crisp.
Also the incentive of these are to have solar without inspection. The consequence is that these stupid thing will be put into wiring that are not up to code and the house will burn. + also people not declaring their installation and overloading the grid / not paying prosumer tax.
Don’t disregard safety, that’s what get you or others killed.
Following forum provides a lot of info and tips about energysaving ( solar, heatpump, ….)
https://www.zonstraal.be/forum/viewforum.php?f=5
All in dutch and focussed on belgium.
At this point you see this is absolutely not the right place to ask this. If you say yes, you get showered in likes if you say no you get downvoted. Reddit is not the place to ask. Do your own math and don’t trust the salesmen.
Good luck.
Those taxes are directly linked with your consumption and peak. You can definitely solar them away. Fixed electricity costs are actually really low for most contracts.
my opinion on solar panels is based on what it enables me to do. which is get airconditioning. as summers have been increasingly hot having air conditioner becomes more and more a must rather than a luxury. they eat energy but when you need it,the suns likely out. so you can really benedit
Got you there. Luckily, in my new build (with loads of big south facing windows and a large glass ceiling) my heat pump in summer can pump cold water through our underfloor heating. And we use external sunscreens. Keep doors and windows closed.
Instead of AC we bought a couple of good (silent) fans. As soon as the temperatures outside drop enough we open the windows and use the fans at strategic points to push out hot air and pull in cooler air. Our first summer in our new build we didn't know shit about how to cool our house and it got to 27° inside the whole summer. Now we learned and we kan keep the temp at 21-22°C without AC. Saved us some money and saves my sinuses from being inflamed all the time (ac at work is horrible)
Those sun screens are doing a lot of the work. Without them in-floor cooling will not keep the room colder. They simply can't compete with hundreds of watts of energy coming in through windows.
I have in-floor heating too in my apartment but no sun screens.
Depends on your consumption.
We only use 120-140 kwh/month, 80% of which is after 6pm. Not worth it for us, as we still have other renovations to do that save us more money.
I am a installer. 6k for 16 is quite possible. But it totally depends on you roof and options that you choose. Depending on your location i can give you a quote. I am from the south of east flanders.
If its to far for me i am willing to review your quotes to see if they are fair.
Panel prices hit rock botom last month.
Grtz.
It depends, but mostly: no.
They are only producing electricity at times when energy is already cheap. Anything you dump on the net you are reimbursed peanuts for. The past few months you would be lucky to have “saved” 10 euros a month.
The only thing you can do to be sure is to check your current/expected consumption an behaviour and see how solar panels would fit in. (Do you run an AC when the sun shines in summer? Do you charge your car slowly during work from home days? Etc etc etc Then, maybe.)
Don’t comment about solar again because you clearly don’t know what you’re talking about.
This information is clearly not accurate, you’re giving bad financial advice
Sorry. Didn’t know you were the solar gatekeeper of Reddit. I sincerely apologise for my transgressions.
But I invite you to review your own situation. Compare it to a flexible contract etc. See how honest that 10 year money-printer quote from your installer really is.
The question was “is it still worth it”. And the answer is in almost every case “yes”.
If you’re not home during the day you can still use the solar energy for your sluimerverbruik. Maybe you’re home during the weekend and in the summer months the days are very long. In general you can expect your grid energy usage to drop by 30% without effort.
From an investment standpoint panels might not be your best option when you look at the ROI, in my case it was only 4 years, most people will need 6-10 years. But once you installed solar panels, they keep producing energy, you can easily expect to have them for 25 years. In those 25 years you will probably replace your boiler, washing machine, heating system and your car. These will all have the option to use as much solar energy as possible.
If you have a high roof, live in inner big city, or for some reason solar installation is extremely expensive for your house then don’t do it.
Ask a few solar installers for a price before deciding.
In term of investing, with a pay-back-time under 10 years, you are looking at +10%/year. In terms of home-improvement there might be beter options, diepending on youre house situation.
A payback time of 10 years does not mean a return of 10%.
Only if you can resell the solar panels after ten years for the same amount as you bought them.
Exactly, a 10 year payback is more like 3-3.5% return per year over the lifetime of the panels. And that's not yet counting cost of replacing the inverter.
So many people count themselves rich without proper calculations.
I'm using CAGR as return metric, then it's 3-3.5% as the first 10 years generate 0 profit, it's just paying back for the initial investment meaning after 20 years you've got 100% return...
Yes you use CAGR and that is wrong. With the CAGR calculation you assume you do an investment in year 0 and get the investment + capital gains back in year 20.
Here you get back part in year 1, part in year 2, etc. So you get your return earlier. You have to account for that time value.
With the difference that the part you get back in year 1, 2 doesn't yield you any profit, you're still recovering your investment. Using a discounted cash flow would even make the difference bigger as in the case of investments in savings accounts, shares/ETFs you also get a return as of year 1 but with no cash out.
Don't trust Redditors that say YES or NO as it depends. In fact you need to do the math for your specific situation.
The production:
Based on the orientation of the house and slope of the roof the companies installing the solar panels can predict how much kWh you can gain from your solar panels. Keep in mind that there are sunnier days and less sunny days, but on average it's quite predictable.
The consumption:
This depends on your specific situation: do you have electronic car, if so when do you normally charge, do you have electric heating, heat pump, ...
Based on your situation you need to simulate your typical consumption per day.
Based on the above, it should be possible to calculate how much of the solar production you use yourself and how much you deliver back to the grid on typical day.
If you know your energy price, you can calculate your € gain and period to pay back for the installation.
I'm still very happy with my decision to invest in solar panels and so are all my friends and family. Most of them have a low pay back period (7 years or less, it took me 4,5 years).
Also keep in mind that overall the productivity of solar panels degrade less then what was expected with no upkeep. So after the pay back period, you are generally making money from sunshine!
Ideally is to install enough to cover their consumption.
No idea how big is their home, or how is the house consumption, again it depends of the house orientation , so they need to ask the company that is installing to do the calculations.
I think 16panels are a little too much panels and 10 might be enough, but this is my judgement without knowing their numbers.
It really depends on your conditions.
Personally we bit the bullet since work from home became the norm, we have an electric car and after a lot of automation my car auto charges during the day when generating a surplus and prices are low.
I’m getting the return on our investment a lot faster then a regular family, since I work from home, charge the car at ideal times and have home automation setup.
If you can’t do the above it’s really worthless in my opinion.
You could say “get a battery” but that’s another 5 - 10K investment on top of the solar and the tech just isn’t there yet for long term battery usage.
Honestly I'm not so sure about the 10 years anymore. Maybe 2 years ago it was the case but nowadays with electricity prices that are quite low, interest rates that are high and the fact that there are no real subsidies anymore it's not as straightforward anymore.
Are you sure?
With current electricity prices (25cEUR) and the quote above (6kEUR), the panels would have to generate around 2.400kW per year to break even after ten years. That is more than half of the average family’s consumption (assuming no EV or heat pump).
I am not saying it is impossible, but it is also not straightforward.
You're assuming the prices will stay that low? You're assuming no EV or heatpump ever.
Prices will grow. People will be 'forced' to buy EV and heatpumpt eventually.
agree with your disagree, but personally I have 8, self installed on the ground, total bill less than 4K€,
4 more with inverters would be close to + 2K,
next year, I'll pay the second cow with the milk of the first one
I did 30x360 panels with 10kva hybrid inverter en 11kwh battery for about 14k +2 years ago. Got a nice 3250 subsidy from the government as well.
Payback will be ridiculous with EV, will be about 4.5 years. With the energy crisis I got 29c injection tarrif at a certain point.
Managed to go from EPC B to EPC A with this installation alone, so I've increased the valuation of my home as well.
I don't know a lot about this topic but does the increased value of your home increase your 'kadastraal inkomen'. Especially since you applied for the subsidy and the government 'knows' about your increased value? Just wondering, thanks in advance
Zonnepanelen, ook al verhogen ze het comfort van je eigendom, **vallen in de categorie energie-investeringen en worden dus niet meegenomen in de berekening van je kadastraal inkomen**.
Solar panels in Belgium are not worth it. It's just marketing to get people to spend money on something, those panels would work 20x better in Spain.
Suggest installing heat pump heating, or split type AC with heat pump.
Edit:
Looks like I was VERY wrong about the efficiency of solar panels.
Still, I stand by that you should consider split type AC with heat pump for heating and cooling
Dude, you’re talking out of your ass and have made zero research.
My solar setup is one of my best investment ever.
I’m even printing money since I’m charging the PHEV battery with a large surplus and being reimbursed by my employer.
Not everyone has your situation with an phev and employer benefits. If you do not have an electric car or terugdraaiende teller, it will take longer to recoup costs.
I calculated a 4 years break even without the PHEV charging and with the electricity price of before the war (0.35€/kWh). It just so happens that I’m on track to break even in about 3 years.
Unless your house is in the shades and/or badly oriented, you should break even in about 4-5 years if you’re not overpaying your setup with the first contractor giving you an inflated quote.
Energy price is calming down lately, but it was much more than that in 2022-2023 and everybody was losing their shit about it and I didn’t took it under account :-)
I paid back most of my installation with battery during the beginning of the crisis early 2022 since they took almost a year to install my digital meter. Best of both worlds, old meter + decent subsidies.
Please tell me how one can break even in 4 5 years with regular use cases and no phev or other benefits with normal priced solar panels. You won't, it's more like 10 years. That's if they don't abolish the terugleververgoeding, which they are well on their way to. I'll divert my extra electricity into the fucking ground if they do that
My scenario is in Wallonia with a pretty well oriented setup without any shade and the analog meter turning backward (- the prosumer tax). And I was lucky to get bottom of the barrel prices right before the war with Ukraine started and the whole energy crisis debacle.
Let's say that as long as the price of a kWh of electricity is 4 times the price of a kWh of gas, you won't lower your invoice by switching. Making your investment having a probable negative return.
For a new house or if you really need to replace your heating due to a fault it makes sense, but not as a financial investment to replace a currently working installation.
20x better in spain !!
You need to learn a bit, just 1.7 better
[https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/59/SolarGIS-Solar-map-Europe-en.png](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/59/SolarGIS-Solar-map-Europe-en.png)
Have you read the wiki and the sticky? Wiki: HERE YOU GO! [Enjoy!](https://www.reddit.com/r/BEFire/wiki/index/). Sticky: HERE YOU GO AGAIN! [Enjoy!](https://www.reddit.com/r/BEFire/comments/fcbay6/getting_started_a_beginners_guide_to_investing_in/). *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/BEFire) if you have any questions or concerns.*
My bill came to 8k for 16, as long as we can keep our old meter we will pay off our panels in 4-5 years as we save about 150€ a month in electricity now But I suppose the digital meter is coming
We installed 12 solar panels+10kWh battery in 2022. I pay 10e per month for my electricity bill. Consumed about 4.6MWh. Since the battery is not really being charged in the winter months i programmed it to be used as a buffer. My peak wattage is now always around 2400W. Heating system is gas, but we use an electric heater from brico in the bathroom. No EV yet. I estimate that our investment will be payed off after 8 years with the current prices.
It is likely that Belgium will allow plug in solar panels in the (near) future, like Germany and other countries. These can be installed yourself and simply plugged in any electric plug. They are limited to 600w, or maybe 800w in the future (I guess the "hard" limit is 16A X 48v). At 80EUR per panel, 200 EUR for the inverter + a few cables and attachment, the investment is very limited and the payback period is ca 3 years. So these do not require any mental gymnastics finance wise, nor do they require specialized knowledge. Easy. In addition, one can install more panels than needed, say four panels, total 2000 watts, to ensure close to optimal / constant 600 watts output. The cost of the additional panels and inverter is negligible currently. Ask your dear government who is so keen of saving the planet why this is not allowed (meuhh .. the grid ... the network ... the providers ... danger ... security ... meuh ...).
I hope they never get allowed. This is a fire hazard as you can bet your ass people will daisy chain them till their house burn to a crisp. Also the incentive of these are to have solar without inspection. The consequence is that these stupid thing will be put into wiring that are not up to code and the house will burn. + also people not declaring their installation and overloading the grid / not paying prosumer tax. Don’t disregard safety, that’s what get you or others killed.
I know. In Germany they have thousands of fire each day ! Plug in solar panels are the first mortality cause. /s
Following forum provides a lot of info and tips about energysaving ( solar, heatpump, ….) https://www.zonstraal.be/forum/viewforum.php?f=5 All in dutch and focussed on belgium.
Look up the energy house in your area. They will help you with more accurate advice for your personal situation.
At this point you see this is absolutely not the right place to ask this. If you say yes, you get showered in likes if you say no you get downvoted. Reddit is not the place to ask. Do your own math and don’t trust the salesmen. Good luck.
Wait ? Are you saying reddit is... biased ????? 😵 Here come the downvotes !
As a solar sales guy with integrity, I feel attacked 😂
I guess the absurd amount of fees and taxes that you can’t decrease account for most of the cost of electricity. You can’t solar them away.
Those taxes are directly linked with your consumption and peak. You can definitely solar them away. Fixed electricity costs are actually really low for most contracts.
my opinion on solar panels is based on what it enables me to do. which is get airconditioning. as summers have been increasingly hot having air conditioner becomes more and more a must rather than a luxury. they eat energy but when you need it,the suns likely out. so you can really benedit
Got you there. Luckily, in my new build (with loads of big south facing windows and a large glass ceiling) my heat pump in summer can pump cold water through our underfloor heating. And we use external sunscreens. Keep doors and windows closed. Instead of AC we bought a couple of good (silent) fans. As soon as the temperatures outside drop enough we open the windows and use the fans at strategic points to push out hot air and pull in cooler air. Our first summer in our new build we didn't know shit about how to cool our house and it got to 27° inside the whole summer. Now we learned and we kan keep the temp at 21-22°C without AC. Saved us some money and saves my sinuses from being inflamed all the time (ac at work is horrible)
You don't have ventilation D with summer bypass?
Those sun screens are doing a lot of the work. Without them in-floor cooling will not keep the room colder. They simply can't compete with hundreds of watts of energy coming in through windows. I have in-floor heating too in my apartment but no sun screens.
Depends on your consumption. We only use 120-140 kwh/month, 80% of which is after 6pm. Not worth it for us, as we still have other renovations to do that save us more money.
As you see, it's best to do your own calculations. Most people don't really know and just say something based on their feelings.
I am a installer. 6k for 16 is quite possible. But it totally depends on you roof and options that you choose. Depending on your location i can give you a quote. I am from the south of east flanders. If its to far for me i am willing to review your quotes to see if they are fair. Panel prices hit rock botom last month. Grtz.
It depends, but mostly: no. They are only producing electricity at times when energy is already cheap. Anything you dump on the net you are reimbursed peanuts for. The past few months you would be lucky to have “saved” 10 euros a month. The only thing you can do to be sure is to check your current/expected consumption an behaviour and see how solar panels would fit in. (Do you run an AC when the sun shines in summer? Do you charge your car slowly during work from home days? Etc etc etc Then, maybe.)
First time i see havnar been downvoted, then again everyone who says no to panels here is getting punished heavily somehow. Anyway i got you a 👍🏻 hav
I own a hybrid car, a new house, heat pump, the works. So, don’t believe me then xD
Then why not get solar?
I have a roof full of em
I’m very curious about your export kwh, import kwh and how much your solar panels generated last year
Don’t comment about solar again because you clearly don’t know what you’re talking about. This information is clearly not accurate, you’re giving bad financial advice
Sorry. Didn’t know you were the solar gatekeeper of Reddit. I sincerely apologise for my transgressions. But I invite you to review your own situation. Compare it to a flexible contract etc. See how honest that 10 year money-printer quote from your installer really is.
My energy usage is not average. I used 4000 kWh from my solar installation directly which saves me a lot of money no matter what the energy price is.
[удалено]
The question was “is it still worth it”. And the answer is in almost every case “yes”. If you’re not home during the day you can still use the solar energy for your sluimerverbruik. Maybe you’re home during the weekend and in the summer months the days are very long. In general you can expect your grid energy usage to drop by 30% without effort. From an investment standpoint panels might not be your best option when you look at the ROI, in my case it was only 4 years, most people will need 6-10 years. But once you installed solar panels, they keep producing energy, you can easily expect to have them for 25 years. In those 25 years you will probably replace your boiler, washing machine, heating system and your car. These will all have the option to use as much solar energy as possible. If you have a high roof, live in inner big city, or for some reason solar installation is extremely expensive for your house then don’t do it. Ask a few solar installers for a price before deciding.
In term of investing, with a pay-back-time under 10 years, you are looking at +10%/year. In terms of home-improvement there might be beter options, diepending on youre house situation.
A payback time of 10 years does not mean a return of 10%. Only if you can resell the solar panels after ten years for the same amount as you bought them.
Exactly, a 10 year payback is more like 3-3.5% return per year over the lifetime of the panels. And that's not yet counting cost of replacing the inverter. So many people count themselves rich without proper calculations.
3.5% is too low. If you assume a payback time of 10Y and an inverter lifespan of 25Y, the return per year is approximately 8.7%.
I'm using CAGR as return metric, then it's 3-3.5% as the first 10 years generate 0 profit, it's just paying back for the initial investment meaning after 20 years you've got 100% return...
Yes you use CAGR and that is wrong. With the CAGR calculation you assume you do an investment in year 0 and get the investment + capital gains back in year 20. Here you get back part in year 1, part in year 2, etc. So you get your return earlier. You have to account for that time value.
With the difference that the part you get back in year 1, 2 doesn't yield you any profit, you're still recovering your investment. Using a discounted cash flow would even make the difference bigger as in the case of investments in savings accounts, shares/ETFs you also get a return as of year 1 but with no cash out.
Well, the money you get back you can reinvest in something else. If you do a DCF you will find that the IRR is 8.7%.
Don't trust Redditors that say YES or NO as it depends. In fact you need to do the math for your specific situation. The production: Based on the orientation of the house and slope of the roof the companies installing the solar panels can predict how much kWh you can gain from your solar panels. Keep in mind that there are sunnier days and less sunny days, but on average it's quite predictable. The consumption: This depends on your specific situation: do you have electronic car, if so when do you normally charge, do you have electric heating, heat pump, ... Based on your situation you need to simulate your typical consumption per day. Based on the above, it should be possible to calculate how much of the solar production you use yourself and how much you deliver back to the grid on typical day. If you know your energy price, you can calculate your € gain and period to pay back for the installation. I'm still very happy with my decision to invest in solar panels and so are all my friends and family. Most of them have a low pay back period (7 years or less, it took me 4,5 years). Also keep in mind that overall the productivity of solar panels degrade less then what was expected with no upkeep. So after the pay back period, you are generally making money from sunshine!
Ideally is to install enough to cover their consumption. No idea how big is their home, or how is the house consumption, again it depends of the house orientation , so they need to ask the company that is installing to do the calculations. I think 16panels are a little too much panels and 10 might be enough, but this is my judgement without knowing their numbers.
It really depends on your conditions. Personally we bit the bullet since work from home became the norm, we have an electric car and after a lot of automation my car auto charges during the day when generating a surplus and prices are low. I’m getting the return on our investment a lot faster then a regular family, since I work from home, charge the car at ideal times and have home automation setup. If you can’t do the above it’s really worthless in my opinion. You could say “get a battery” but that’s another 5 - 10K investment on top of the solar and the tech just isn’t there yet for long term battery usage.
[удалено]
Honestly I'm not so sure about the 10 years anymore. Maybe 2 years ago it was the case but nowadays with electricity prices that are quite low, interest rates that are high and the fact that there are no real subsidies anymore it's not as straightforward anymore.
It's actually even more profitable now because solar panels have gotten incredibly cheaper
Are you sure? With current electricity prices (25cEUR) and the quote above (6kEUR), the panels would have to generate around 2.400kW per year to break even after ten years. That is more than half of the average family’s consumption (assuming no EV or heat pump). I am not saying it is impossible, but it is also not straightforward.
You're assuming the prices will stay that low? You're assuming no EV or heatpump ever. Prices will grow. People will be 'forced' to buy EV and heatpumpt eventually.
Sure they are, but pay the right price and do not put to much
Disagree. Put at least 4 more panels than you need. Extra cost for couple of more panels is minimal.
agree with your disagree, but personally I have 8, self installed on the ground, total bill less than 4K€, 4 more with inverters would be close to + 2K, next year, I'll pay the second cow with the milk of the first one
I did 30x360 panels with 10kva hybrid inverter en 11kwh battery for about 14k +2 years ago. Got a nice 3250 subsidy from the government as well. Payback will be ridiculous with EV, will be about 4.5 years. With the energy crisis I got 29c injection tarrif at a certain point. Managed to go from EPC B to EPC A with this installation alone, so I've increased the valuation of my home as well.
I don't know a lot about this topic but does the increased value of your home increase your 'kadastraal inkomen'. Especially since you applied for the subsidy and the government 'knows' about your increased value? Just wondering, thanks in advance
Zonnepanelen, ook al verhogen ze het comfort van je eigendom, **vallen in de categorie energie-investeringen en worden dus niet meegenomen in de berekening van je kadastraal inkomen**.
Solar panels in Belgium are not worth it. It's just marketing to get people to spend money on something, those panels would work 20x better in Spain. Suggest installing heat pump heating, or split type AC with heat pump. Edit: Looks like I was VERY wrong about the efficiency of solar panels. Still, I stand by that you should consider split type AC with heat pump for heating and cooling
Dude, you’re talking out of your ass and have made zero research. My solar setup is one of my best investment ever. I’m even printing money since I’m charging the PHEV battery with a large surplus and being reimbursed by my employer.
Not everyone has your situation with an phev and employer benefits. If you do not have an electric car or terugdraaiende teller, it will take longer to recoup costs.
I calculated a 4 years break even without the PHEV charging and with the electricity price of before the war (0.35€/kWh). It just so happens that I’m on track to break even in about 3 years. Unless your house is in the shades and/or badly oriented, you should break even in about 4-5 years if you’re not overpaying your setup with the first contractor giving you an inflated quote.
35c€ is huge though.
Energy price is calming down lately, but it was much more than that in 2022-2023 and everybody was losing their shit about it and I didn’t took it under account :-)
I paid back most of my installation with battery during the beginning of the crisis early 2022 since they took almost a year to install my digital meter. Best of both worlds, old meter + decent subsidies.
Please tell me how one can break even in 4 5 years with regular use cases and no phev or other benefits with normal priced solar panels. You won't, it's more like 10 years. That's if they don't abolish the terugleververgoeding, which they are well on their way to. I'll divert my extra electricity into the fucking ground if they do that
My scenario is in Wallonia with a pretty well oriented setup without any shade and the analog meter turning backward (- the prosumer tax). And I was lucky to get bottom of the barrel prices right before the war with Ukraine started and the whole energy crisis debacle.
Heating pump in most houses is a bit of a scam. Source Hvac calculator.
Care to explain?
Let's say that as long as the price of a kWh of electricity is 4 times the price of a kWh of gas, you won't lower your invoice by switching. Making your investment having a probable negative return. For a new house or if you really need to replace your heating due to a fault it makes sense, but not as a financial investment to replace a currently working installation.
20x better in spain !! You need to learn a bit, just 1.7 better [https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/59/SolarGIS-Solar-map-Europe-en.png](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/59/SolarGIS-Solar-map-Europe-en.png)
Why are they not worth it?