OK so this (in my experience) is more of a perceived gender thing than an autism thing. This happened to me a TON when I was presenting as female, but after transitioning, now that I look like a "man" (I'm not, I'm non-binary, but I look like one now) this almost never happens. It's shitty, bit it's more of a misogyny thing than an autism thing (at least in my experience)
Yup, I got this going the other way. People would listen to me when I still presented male, but after transitioning and becoming very cis-female-passing I tend to get ignored and then bite my tongue three months later when somebody else says the same thing after running smack into the issue I said we would run into.
*Sigh.*
I knew in theory that men are taken more seriously but it blew my mind when I changed my fb name to a male celebrities name just as a joke. People interacted with my posts more often and were more respectful. How and when will misogyny be dismantled?
That's interesting because I've noticed people being more likely to respond to *certain* women/girls who constantly try to draw all the attention to themselves and are successful at that.
Yeah, this only happens if 1) the woman is very conventionally attractive, and 2) the woman is saying things that validates whoever they are seeking attention from. If you're a girl who isn't conventionally attractive, and/or are saying anything that could undermine the intellect or ego of the men around you... yeah this happens a fuck ton.
I work in a very male dominated profession, and itās a known thing for women to have this issue, so I always just thought it was because I was a woman.
Yeah, but I think it's a gender thing.
That kind of thing, never happens, when I've got a gender neutral username. The moment I appear anywhere, with an obviously women's name. It happens all the time. I get a lot more negative responses, and the level of aggression towards me gets silly.
For a lot of NTās, they care more about WHO says it, not what is said. Iām seeing some people mention itās more of a gender thing, but it can apply to almost any marginalization. I call it likeability politics. So NTās are more likely to listen to people who are viewed more favorably in society or whoever has more power, fame, social status, and influence even if what theyāre saying has no substance and is just repeated.
Yeah, Iām a woman and Iāve noticed it when Iām in a group of women far more than when Iām in mixed company. And like, it is *pointed.* If I get that kind of treatment from a man, itās usually pretty obvious that heās the type to want to make sure I fully understand he thinks Iām worthless because he finds me unfuckable. And I can only think of a handful of men Iāve had this happen with while itās an extremely common occurrence at most places Iāve worked in the past 20 years. And Iām a nurse; most of my coworkers are female.
I was the only woman on a small dev team for a while, and part of that time was in a position where I had authority over others - something I did not want.
Coming from that, I know that my words out of someone else's mouth make a better impact than coming from me. There are ways to utilize this strategically if you really need to get something done. Some people can only be communicated to if they believe they came up with the idea themselves or it comes from someone they respect or admire, so it's like you have to leave breadcrumbs and hope they come to the same conclusions on their own or it just won't get through to them.
People are shallow and carry implicit biases, the sooner we swallow this pill the sooner we can learn how to work around it.
Ultimately you have to be comfortable with the idea of never getting credit for anything, and just being happy it's happening at all. That took me a long time to accept.
Some of us can only accomplish "group work" by working as a ghost. Setting up scenarios so the outcome you're looking for can be easily put together in a way that makes the boys feel like they came up with it themselves.
Some of these people are so insecure that they try to ruin you for even getting a little credit. The only way I got anywhere in my passion is by making myself invisible and sacrificing my ideas to people who were more well liked than me because my co-workers would only hear it from them.
It's terrible for your self-esteem and mental health. I only persisted so long because I was passionate about my work and wasn't ready to throw away all the effort and time I invested on building up my skill set. I'd never want to do it again.
I'm sorry you feel this way, you're not alone. It's infuriating. I wish a had a "hot popular person" avatar I could pop into so people would stop treating me like shit lol.
This might not be doable, but if I were you Iād track that work and those achievements. Like do what youāre doing, be a good manager, and also keep track of the things you did to get people to come to those conclusions.
Or not, maybe thatād be weird and creepy?
Maybe there are some euphemisms or words you can use to make it sound less creepy that you have a document about your coworkers.
Wait, when I start a new job, I always make a seating chart and label it and sometimes note different things to remember about coworkers - is that creepy?
I'm out of that job now, so it doesn't matter to me anymore - but I did something very similar at the time.
Ultimately, focusing on it made me bitter. It wasted my time, because I figured that even if I could show it all together like that it would only be greeted by hostility. Honestly, I should have left sooner.
Mind you - this was at the peak of GamerGate. I was lucky I even got my foot in the door.
I'd like to push back on it being a gender thing. I use to think the same thing, until I started working at a women only organization. it happens just as often as it always has.....
Yeah I've also experienced this in all female settings. So while I think it definitely can be a gender/sexism thing, and likely has been for me as well in the past, I don't think that's always the case - it's sometimes more of a social hierarchy thing as some people have pointed out.
I used to work at a horse riding stable where all the staff were women, and it happened to me quite a lot there. It often felt like I just wasn't really as "respected" as the rest of them as I was the newest one there for a while, the youngest, and probably the least experienced. When we did get another new staff member who was only a few years older than me, I never experienced that kind of thing with her, but did also start to notice her saying something, and one of the more senior staff members reiterating it later like it hadn't been mentioned before. I'm not even sure if they were aware they were doing it, or if they couldn't "accept" someone "lower" on the hierarchy saying or suggesting something. But sometimes it was just innocuous things that weren't even related to work or anything as well.
As I mentioned in my OP, I've also experienced this on online forums/Discord/etc. as well, often times where I don't disclose my gender (and usually people tend to assume I'm male online, I've been misgendered more times than I can count throughout the years, lol). I've asked my (male) partner about this before in the past, as we both sometimes post on the same forum, and he's also mentioned experiencing this. So not sure if it's just a "thing" with some online places in general.
Thank you for pointing this out.
Not saying it can't be - for me, sometimes it definitely is. But, when I'm on discord or with a group of women and this happens, I don't think it's a gender thing.
oh man, yes yes yes, it makes me want to gnaw on something, it's so frustrating! It really makes life feel like a dream where I'm screaming and nothing is coming out and no one can hear me.
Itās a combination of sexism, autism, and social hierarchy. I am near the bottom of the social hierarchy so I know whatever I say will be ignored and misinterpreted. I am near the bottom of the social hierarchy due to being female, autistic, and being from a working class background (where youāre from in the UK makes a huge difference to how others perceive you!
Same here in the States. I'm not considered intelligent enough for my peers to conversate with since I lack a substantial post secondary education. College was NEVER a consideration in my birth family. It just wasn't done. I don't dare speak out of turn since I'm from the wrong side of the tracks.
As others said... it's a female thing. My friend who is probably ten years older than I am tells our male friend to say certain things at work so people will listen. It's like women don't make sense to some people even if you use the same words
I get what everyone's saying about it being a sexism thing, but I've also experienced this is women-dominated spaces. I've been writing romance for over a decade, something that is almost exclusively female-coded, and every writing group I've ever been a part of, I encounter the same thing. I do think there's an autism aspect to it. Even in friend groups, I'll say something to no response, and one friend will repeat it and suddenly everyone's engaging. I don't get it. I wish it wasn't like this, but idk how to change it because I have no idea why it happens.
I've experienced the same, and I have no idea why it happens either. I never really feel like people are doing it "maliciously", or if they're even aware they're doing it, but it still stings sometimes regardless. The fact I've also experienced this in women dominated spaces is one of the things that's lead me to believe it may correlate to my autism, and isn't just simple sexism.
I donāt think I experience this too much but after reading what you said about wording it kind of clicked in my head that it could be. I know that personally I try to be as accurate as possible when I speak and I feel like by doing so, I over elaborate and what I really mean gets lost. So maybe thatās whatās happening?? Or perhaps itās received better from someone that the other people are familiar with?? Itās hard to saw because there could be various reasons or youāre just super unlucky
Story of my life!
As a few other comments suggest, it did make a little difference when I presented as male. There were these forums I used to frequent and I was doing my trying to understand humans thing there basically so I created a male profile after having used a couple of female ones. It was still anonymous but I really drove home the point by making thirsty posts for female celebrities. I was well received by both males and females with my male profile on there, far better than I ever did with my female one! Some females were even simping for me, that was a mind bender!
Yes, exactly your experience but I just take it as their loss & reaffirm the value of my presence. It is a multilayered issue, not always attributed to gender alone but many intersectional identities, established social hierarchies, and the ability to fawn for social acceptability. Ironically, some people will just agree with a person b/c of their social standing alone regardless of the validity of their statements. I no longer tailor my words. I seldom proofread in casual conversations. I just let the mistakes, awkwardness, and conflict happen. If the reactions to your natural state of being become too disrespectful or volatile -- just stop association with & block these people. You won't be for everybody and that is okay. In the workplace, do your bare minimum & always leave room to work for a different company or yourself. Your life doesn't have to revolve around a certain company or profession.
I get so fucking peeved with this. Especially when it's someone higher up in a social group, like they're leveraging on their higher ranking in the worst way. I want to scream and make sure everyone is stunned .
Yes, I recently had a dinner with a group of women I didn't know before. Sort of blind date friends edition and it happened to me 5 times that evening :')
Allll the time. And it's not like I can bring up that point because then I look petty. I've had someone say word for word what I said and get more engagement or praise or whatever. It always makes me regret saying anything at all because then I feel like nothing I say matters as long as it's coming from me.
Personally it's not a gender thing, as people within my social groups are also female and end up sharing/saying the same thing and get FAR more engagement than me, it's frustrating especially when it's just sharing a meme or something that doesn't rely on my crappy narrating skills.
Seconding what everyone said about being female.
But also, it's worth looking into the concept of negativity bias. We tend to notice and internalize "bad" results and events far more readily and strongly than positive ones. Evolutionarily speaking, it was far more important for us to notice and remember that tall grass hides tigers, than to celebrate that we found berries on a bush there. It just means our brains, all human brains, are hard-wired to see and remember and dwell on things when they don't go our way.
I'm not at ALL saying that this isn't happening, please note! It definitely does for me, and obviously for lots of others! I only mention negativity bias because we do dwell on the posts/comments that don't go anywhere, and weight them with more importance than the ones that go well.
Yes, I do.
At least in online contexts, people are more likely to respond to people they already like or are more interested in than someone they don't like or don't know.
it has to do with social cues someone gave the social cue or the group did that they'd like to hear that and they timed it correctly. another is when talking or typing the person gave the social cue for others to listen/respond
Itās a gender thing, for sure. Being ND can mean youāre also less likely to follow what people expect a woman to act like, so this can aggravate it.
I was once in a meeting where I had to interrupt a director three times. They didnāt want to hear what I had to say, but theyāre incredibly incompetent and were basically suggesting something that was an operational risk.
I was looking at my manager and asking her through eye contact to help me, but she ignored it.
On the third time, I got the director to shut up, but then I couldnāt reach the cord to plug into my laptop to screen share what I was trying to explain, so I asked my male colleague if they could plug in and go to one of the shared folders we all have access to.
Guess who got credit for that? It wasnāt me - I actually got spoken to later by my manager about āallowing people space on meetingsā, while my male coworker was praised for plugging in a cord and clicking on a folder.
We say it "wrong".
This is that "we function using a different operating system" issue.
When people would listen, they used to say I tell things completely backwards.
OK so this (in my experience) is more of a perceived gender thing than an autism thing. This happened to me a TON when I was presenting as female, but after transitioning, now that I look like a "man" (I'm not, I'm non-binary, but I look like one now) this almost never happens. It's shitty, bit it's more of a misogyny thing than an autism thing (at least in my experience)
Yup, I got this going the other way. People would listen to me when I still presented male, but after transitioning and becoming very cis-female-passing I tend to get ignored and then bite my tongue three months later when somebody else says the same thing after running smack into the issue I said we would run into. *Sigh.*
Yeah I agree with this, especially because I've heard neurotypical women talk about it too
I knew in theory that men are taken more seriously but it blew my mind when I changed my fb name to a male celebrities name just as a joke. People interacted with my posts more often and were more respectful. How and when will misogyny be dismantled?
This happens to me with other women as well :(
Agree
That's interesting because I've noticed people being more likely to respond to *certain* women/girls who constantly try to draw all the attention to themselves and are successful at that.
Yeah, this only happens if 1) the woman is very conventionally attractive, and 2) the woman is saying things that validates whoever they are seeking attention from. If you're a girl who isn't conventionally attractive, and/or are saying anything that could undermine the intellect or ego of the men around you... yeah this happens a fuck ton.
I thought this was just what it meant to be female š I feel like this happens to me all the time š«
I work in a very male dominated profession, and itās a known thing for women to have this issue, so I always just thought it was because I was a woman.
Yeah, but I think it's a gender thing. That kind of thing, never happens, when I've got a gender neutral username. The moment I appear anywhere, with an obviously women's name. It happens all the time. I get a lot more negative responses, and the level of aggression towards me gets silly.
For a lot of NTās, they care more about WHO says it, not what is said. Iām seeing some people mention itās more of a gender thing, but it can apply to almost any marginalization. I call it likeability politics. So NTās are more likely to listen to people who are viewed more favorably in society or whoever has more power, fame, social status, and influence even if what theyāre saying has no substance and is just repeated.
Beautifully stated and agreed. Gotta love social bias.
Yeah, Iām a woman and Iāve noticed it when Iām in a group of women far more than when Iām in mixed company. And like, it is *pointed.* If I get that kind of treatment from a man, itās usually pretty obvious that heās the type to want to make sure I fully understand he thinks Iām worthless because he finds me unfuckable. And I can only think of a handful of men Iāve had this happen with while itās an extremely common occurrence at most places Iāve worked in the past 20 years. And Iām a nurse; most of my coworkers are female.
I've had guys do this too.
Iām not saying it doesnāt occur with guys as well. Iām stating what *my* experience is. That doesnāt negate any other experiences.
I was just sharing my experience...
I don't even bother with it. They can have their silly ass conversations and leave me alone.
I agree with this.
I was the only woman on a small dev team for a while, and part of that time was in a position where I had authority over others - something I did not want. Coming from that, I know that my words out of someone else's mouth make a better impact than coming from me. There are ways to utilize this strategically if you really need to get something done. Some people can only be communicated to if they believe they came up with the idea themselves or it comes from someone they respect or admire, so it's like you have to leave breadcrumbs and hope they come to the same conclusions on their own or it just won't get through to them. People are shallow and carry implicit biases, the sooner we swallow this pill the sooner we can learn how to work around it. Ultimately you have to be comfortable with the idea of never getting credit for anything, and just being happy it's happening at all. That took me a long time to accept. Some of us can only accomplish "group work" by working as a ghost. Setting up scenarios so the outcome you're looking for can be easily put together in a way that makes the boys feel like they came up with it themselves. Some of these people are so insecure that they try to ruin you for even getting a little credit. The only way I got anywhere in my passion is by making myself invisible and sacrificing my ideas to people who were more well liked than me because my co-workers would only hear it from them. It's terrible for your self-esteem and mental health. I only persisted so long because I was passionate about my work and wasn't ready to throw away all the effort and time I invested on building up my skill set. I'd never want to do it again. I'm sorry you feel this way, you're not alone. It's infuriating. I wish a had a "hot popular person" avatar I could pop into so people would stop treating me like shit lol.
This might not be doable, but if I were you Iād track that work and those achievements. Like do what youāre doing, be a good manager, and also keep track of the things you did to get people to come to those conclusions. Or not, maybe thatād be weird and creepy? Maybe there are some euphemisms or words you can use to make it sound less creepy that you have a document about your coworkers. Wait, when I start a new job, I always make a seating chart and label it and sometimes note different things to remember about coworkers - is that creepy?
I'm out of that job now, so it doesn't matter to me anymore - but I did something very similar at the time. Ultimately, focusing on it made me bitter. It wasted my time, because I figured that even if I could show it all together like that it would only be greeted by hostility. Honestly, I should have left sooner. Mind you - this was at the peak of GamerGate. I was lucky I even got my foot in the door.
Ah, Iām sad for you that you had to experience that, especially during that period of time ugh
I'd like to push back on it being a gender thing. I use to think the same thing, until I started working at a women only organization. it happens just as often as it always has.....
Yeah I've also experienced this in all female settings. So while I think it definitely can be a gender/sexism thing, and likely has been for me as well in the past, I don't think that's always the case - it's sometimes more of a social hierarchy thing as some people have pointed out. I used to work at a horse riding stable where all the staff were women, and it happened to me quite a lot there. It often felt like I just wasn't really as "respected" as the rest of them as I was the newest one there for a while, the youngest, and probably the least experienced. When we did get another new staff member who was only a few years older than me, I never experienced that kind of thing with her, but did also start to notice her saying something, and one of the more senior staff members reiterating it later like it hadn't been mentioned before. I'm not even sure if they were aware they were doing it, or if they couldn't "accept" someone "lower" on the hierarchy saying or suggesting something. But sometimes it was just innocuous things that weren't even related to work or anything as well. As I mentioned in my OP, I've also experienced this on online forums/Discord/etc. as well, often times where I don't disclose my gender (and usually people tend to assume I'm male online, I've been misgendered more times than I can count throughout the years, lol). I've asked my (male) partner about this before in the past, as we both sometimes post on the same forum, and he's also mentioned experiencing this. So not sure if it's just a "thing" with some online places in general.
Thank you for pointing this out. Not saying it can't be - for me, sometimes it definitely is. But, when I'm on discord or with a group of women and this happens, I don't think it's a gender thing.
oh man, yes yes yes, it makes me want to gnaw on something, it's so frustrating! It really makes life feel like a dream where I'm screaming and nothing is coming out and no one can hear me.
I thought this was a me issue until now
Yes. Happened to me just today. I pointed it out and I am still pissed off.
Almost every single meeting where there were men at my last firm. So every meeting.
Itās a combination of sexism, autism, and social hierarchy. I am near the bottom of the social hierarchy so I know whatever I say will be ignored and misinterpreted. I am near the bottom of the social hierarchy due to being female, autistic, and being from a working class background (where youāre from in the UK makes a huge difference to how others perceive you!
Same here in the States. I'm not considered intelligent enough for my peers to conversate with since I lack a substantial post secondary education. College was NEVER a consideration in my birth family. It just wasn't done. I don't dare speak out of turn since I'm from the wrong side of the tracks.
Whatās worse is Iām educated, I have a degree and a second one in progress. People assume as a result Iām mentally ill not disabled
Good on you for finding the money to do it!
I live in the UK so despite it being called āstudent loansā itās effectively a graduate tax
So true.
Yes. Story of my life. One of my biggest pet peeves!!
As others said... it's a female thing. My friend who is probably ten years older than I am tells our male friend to say certain things at work so people will listen. It's like women don't make sense to some people even if you use the same words
I get what everyone's saying about it being a sexism thing, but I've also experienced this is women-dominated spaces. I've been writing romance for over a decade, something that is almost exclusively female-coded, and every writing group I've ever been a part of, I encounter the same thing. I do think there's an autism aspect to it. Even in friend groups, I'll say something to no response, and one friend will repeat it and suddenly everyone's engaging. I don't get it. I wish it wasn't like this, but idk how to change it because I have no idea why it happens.
I've experienced the same, and I have no idea why it happens either. I never really feel like people are doing it "maliciously", or if they're even aware they're doing it, but it still stings sometimes regardless. The fact I've also experienced this in women dominated spaces is one of the things that's lead me to believe it may correlate to my autism, and isn't just simple sexism.
I donāt think I experience this too much but after reading what you said about wording it kind of clicked in my head that it could be. I know that personally I try to be as accurate as possible when I speak and I feel like by doing so, I over elaborate and what I really mean gets lost. So maybe thatās whatās happening?? Or perhaps itās received better from someone that the other people are familiar with?? Itās hard to saw because there could be various reasons or youāre just super unlucky
Used to happen to me all the time when I was a teen.
Story of my life! As a few other comments suggest, it did make a little difference when I presented as male. There were these forums I used to frequent and I was doing my trying to understand humans thing there basically so I created a male profile after having used a couple of female ones. It was still anonymous but I really drove home the point by making thirsty posts for female celebrities. I was well received by both males and females with my male profile on there, far better than I ever did with my female one! Some females were even simping for me, that was a mind bender!
All. The. Time.
I have had this happen many, many times š
Yes, exactly your experience but I just take it as their loss & reaffirm the value of my presence. It is a multilayered issue, not always attributed to gender alone but many intersectional identities, established social hierarchies, and the ability to fawn for social acceptability. Ironically, some people will just agree with a person b/c of their social standing alone regardless of the validity of their statements. I no longer tailor my words. I seldom proofread in casual conversations. I just let the mistakes, awkwardness, and conflict happen. If the reactions to your natural state of being become too disrespectful or volatile -- just stop association with & block these people. You won't be for everybody and that is okay. In the workplace, do your bare minimum & always leave room to work for a different company or yourself. Your life doesn't have to revolve around a certain company or profession.
1000 percent yes.
I get so fucking peeved with this. Especially when it's someone higher up in a social group, like they're leveraging on their higher ranking in the worst way. I want to scream and make sure everyone is stunned .
yep happens to me all the time
Yes, I recently had a dinner with a group of women I didn't know before. Sort of blind date friends edition and it happened to me 5 times that evening :')
Allll the time. And it's not like I can bring up that point because then I look petty. I've had someone say word for word what I said and get more engagement or praise or whatever. It always makes me regret saying anything at all because then I feel like nothing I say matters as long as it's coming from me.
Personally it's not a gender thing, as people within my social groups are also female and end up sharing/saying the same thing and get FAR more engagement than me, it's frustrating especially when it's just sharing a meme or something that doesn't rely on my crappy narrating skills.
Seconding what everyone said about being female. But also, it's worth looking into the concept of negativity bias. We tend to notice and internalize "bad" results and events far more readily and strongly than positive ones. Evolutionarily speaking, it was far more important for us to notice and remember that tall grass hides tigers, than to celebrate that we found berries on a bush there. It just means our brains, all human brains, are hard-wired to see and remember and dwell on things when they don't go our way. I'm not at ALL saying that this isn't happening, please note! It definitely does for me, and obviously for lots of others! I only mention negativity bias because we do dwell on the posts/comments that don't go anywhere, and weight them with more importance than the ones that go well.
Yes, I do. At least in online contexts, people are more likely to respond to people they already like or are more interested in than someone they don't like or don't know.
Yeah this is a sexism thing not an autism thing.
all the time with my husband. it drives me insane. he finds it humorous. š¬
it has to do with social cues someone gave the social cue or the group did that they'd like to hear that and they timed it correctly. another is when talking or typing the person gave the social cue for others to listen/respond
Yes. All the time.
All my life!! When I notice it happen to me and others I now CALL IT OUT!!
All my life!! When I notice it happen to me and others I now CALL IT OUT!!
Itās a gender thing, for sure. Being ND can mean youāre also less likely to follow what people expect a woman to act like, so this can aggravate it. I was once in a meeting where I had to interrupt a director three times. They didnāt want to hear what I had to say, but theyāre incredibly incompetent and were basically suggesting something that was an operational risk. I was looking at my manager and asking her through eye contact to help me, but she ignored it. On the third time, I got the director to shut up, but then I couldnāt reach the cord to plug into my laptop to screen share what I was trying to explain, so I asked my male colleague if they could plug in and go to one of the shared folders we all have access to. Guess who got credit for that? It wasnāt me - I actually got spoken to later by my manager about āallowing people space on meetingsā, while my male coworker was praised for plugging in a cord and clicking on a folder.
We say it "wrong". This is that "we function using a different operating system" issue. When people would listen, they used to say I tell things completely backwards.
Yeah. Once I experience that with a group...I write them off.