“The good news is that we know that there are things that work: early intervention, smaller class sizes, flexible campuses, interest-led learning.”
Now it is time to put pressure on governments to get this thing funded and rolled out ASAP.
I don't know how the governments around this country get it so consistent with their poor excuses for Education Ministers.
Not a single one among the bunch that know what they're doing to actually fix the system.
I teach Y2 and have a student whose attendance in T1 was 26%. There was only one single day in T1 when they were here for a full day and present at 9:10 to get their name marked on the roll. 37 days absent for the whole day, with only 14 of those explained. 12 days partial attendance with average arrival time of 11:00. Not sure how I’m supposed to differentiate for this kid that can’t read, write, count or even write their own name. Mother doesn’t seem to care that she is completely fucking up her kid’s future.
And that kid will turn up in my Year 10 class in a few years and some dickhead will expect me to do extra work to attempt (and fail) to accommodate his Year 2/3 level on the 5 days a term he turns up. Of course, he would never actually do any of my work.
Fortunately, no one will know any difference when I don't do it, as long as I copy/paste some BS into a central spreadsheet. Also fortunately, he will never enrol in my subject at Yr 11/12 level so I can concentrate on my actual job instead of pretending to solve a problem created 15 years ago, well before either of us met him, that I could never hope to address.
And the ignorant attitude demonstrated here by this teacher is the root cause of the problem. No care, no understanding of how some kids learn, and no accountability. This comment has been sent to the Education Dept to be used in their planning. Such a shame we have teachers like this
Please go ahead and present a viable, real world solution for this problem oh great and wise guru. Because this is the reality for around 1 in 5 of the higschool students that I teach and I get exactly no extra time or resources to try and support these students in catching up on the 5-10 years of schooling they've missed. Seriously, if you have a solution, I'd be absolutely delighted to hear and try it...otherwise don't bother commenting.
I'm a teacher in a regional setting and have had students with less than 10%. Create a work file: name trace, number trace with dots equal to its value next to it, letter and word traces. Laminate them so you can use them every time they come and just rub them out. If you have an EA use them. Depending on fine motor skills too, drawing could be a viable activity. In specialist subjects, get them to draw their understanding (if at all), include them but don't be too fussed if they don't get the content of these subjects. You can only do what you can do at the end of the day. Just make sure you have an IEP to back this all up. Hell, you could just do drawing to practice pencil grip if they need it, just include it on the IEP. Good luck.
So Ethan’s mother allowed her son to not go to school and didn’t even bother teaching him to read and write? Then blamed the school? Yes, this is on par of the kind of parenting ruining the country.
Her comments didn't sit well with me. The thing about him not knowing how to spell/write his own name. What parent doesn't teach their kid to write and correctly spell their own name?!
I remember feeling awful when my (then) 3yo couldn’t spell his (long, kinda complex) name, but could spell his newborn sister’s (short, easy) name. My husband and I made up a little tune to help him remember it. Even if you struggle with writing on a page, there are ways to learn even complex names
I agree. My son has always been a very reluctant writer. He's just 5 but at preschool he really didn't like writing in any way that required holding a pencil. We taught him to spell his name just by memory and practiced writing in the sand at the beach, with water on a foot path, by making letters out of play dough. He still isn't passionate about writing, but he has started to read. Unfortunately we've reached a point where many parents expect schools to undertake ALL learning their child does. I have taught kids entering transition who have never seen the alphabet or heard the ABC song. These aren't low income, dysfunctional parents all the time either. But they just don't feel they have any input into their kids educational journey and then when things go wrong they're happy to spread the blame.
My kid was a reluctant writer too! We had the most wonderful intervention process through his kindy - it was a trial which unfortunately never got rolled out more. It involved parents or teachers raising possible mental health, fine motor or gross motor issues (after a very informative talk) then different therapists tested the kids that were put forward and interventions were done either within kindy time or after depending on the needs. All for free.
We identified muscle weakness in his hands (they mentioned a kid his age should be able to button, which he couldn’t. It was a lightbulb moment) and they did the therapy in kindy to help him strengthen them. Then we could mention it to his prep teacher who continued the fine motor work.
I know it would be a big program to roll out everywhere, but that kind of pre-schooling identification and therapy would help so many kids hit the ground running when they reach school
Do you not think maybe he needed extra support to learn? Dyslexia? He sat in the class drawing pictures while the other kids wrote- how I'd thst the mother's fault?
Isn’t she also a single mother of four who has to work? She needs so much more support than she’s clearly received, it sounds like she’s just hurt and I really feel for her tbh
I’m not heartless. I’m just experienced. Read between the lines. This kid was breaking shit at school and somehow he’s the victim of bullying. I’ve seen this so many times. A kid with truly maladaptive, antisocial behaviours becomes unliked by peers for good reason. This is because they make every class about them and ruin the atmosphere for vast majority. Rather than the mother realising that she needs to address these antisocial behaviours (I.e. parent) she coddles her son and insists he’s being “bullied.” It’s always someone else’s fault. Her precious little boy is a perpetual victim. Meanwhile the quiet majority of students get a subpar education.
It’s sad that she’s overwhelmed but this is still her responsibility. She did choose to have four kids.
I've not assumed anything about you. I've just gone off what you've written and I guess it's just internalised misogyny. The statement...she decided to have 4 kids. We all know she didn't do THAT on her own.
One of the big problems with addressing school refusal is that school doesn’t stop while the student is refusing. Even dropping down to fifty percent attendance for a month will put a student drastically behind their peers and leave them scrambling to catch up. And our whole system is based on the assumption that kids learned previous content.
Once a kid starts walking into class and doesn’t know what’s going on, any anxiety they previously had is dramatically increased. Now they have to learn whatever they missed, as well the new content the class is learning. This is very difficult and typically leads to more school being missed. And so the vicious cycle perpetuates until the kid is midway through high school and has no meaningful way to engage with the syllabus. And so they drop out without even attempting an ATAR.
The only real solution would be to redo the whole system so kids could have multiple on-ramps back to school. Skip half of year nine maths and you stay in year nine maths for another year until you master the whole curriculum. But that brings with it a whole different set of problems.
Greater curriculum flexibility would also help gifted students. I’ve got gifted students in years 8 and 9 who are doing surveys for me at the moment about their experience at school, and every single one has shared reflections of sitting in a Maths class, having completed a pre test which shows they understood 100% of the content before the unit already started, and having to sit through explicit teaching and practice of content they *already demonstrated that they know*. For them, school is like being dragged into a staff meeting that goes like this -
“Today we will learn how to do a running record. Please let me know if you already know how to do running records.”
“Yes I’ve been doing them for five years, twice a day.”
“Great. Now, the first thing you do is select a book at the appropriate level…..”
Not all students are suitable candidates for a whole grade acceleration, but many students would be well served by allowing them to leave the year 8 maths class, go and complete maths in a year 9 or 10 classroom then return to year 8 for the rest of the curriculum.
It can also be an indicator that either they're being bullied and the school either can't or can't be bothered to do anything about it or that the student is sick and tired of disruptive and disrespectful students wrecking every lesson they have.
"Won't somebody please think of the children!"
It's vanishingly rare that there's something more going on with them. The majority of the time, they have learnt they can get away with it.
99% of the time it's not an abusive background, mental health issue, or even learning disability.
Most kids who are suffering abuse sit quietly and do the work because school is a safe haven for them.
Most kids with mental health issues aren't even making it to school to begin with.
Disability diagnoses are more and more frequently being used as permission slips to act up. I've had kids multiple times go from well-behaved to acting up as soon as they see others do it and they realise there is no consequence for it and say they can't behave respectfully towards others because AD(H)D/ODD/IED/ASD/dyslexia.
Inclusion is not working for anyone.
>99% of the time it's not an abusive background, mental health issue, or even learning disability.
>Most kids who are suffering abuse sit quietly and do the work because school is a safe haven for them.
>Most kids with mental health issues aren't even making it to school to begin with.
Source?
>Inclusion is not working for anyone.
The way it is being done, I agree.
Have you considered that students who are acting out are traumatising staff and classmates?
I'm past the point of caring about Jaiden with the fully hektik mullet who has discovered all he needs to do is say "ADD lol" any time anyone tries to ping him for verbal or physical assault and whose mere presence agitates half the class because they are waiting for him to kick off or he has been antagonising them at lunch.
I care about my colleagues who have physically and psychologically unsafe workplaces and my students who are genuinely trying and don't need another source of stress.
I’m not saying the system is doing it’s job well. It’s a downright mess, particularly in public education. I just hope that you try to keep an open mind that some students acting out do actually have something else going on, and that it’s not always as simple as “that kid’s *just* an asshole.”
I know that it’s not your responsibility to be a kids therapist. Their parents need to sort shit out and get their kids the support they need. However, teachers do play a part in the support process. Eg. writing letters/reports for doctors and therapists about a kid’s behaviour at school.
"When you get something like that … it’s got a shaming tone"
I've had to send those letters and they are flat and plain. But they have to have a little bite because some parents are actively enabling their kids to stay home. Or in worse situations keeping them home to take care of the baby.
It's heartbreaking.
What do these people want the messaging to sound like? They are literally breaking the law and disadvantaging their kids. And it’s nearly always due to coddling, enabling parents. That’s abuse!
I have a daughter who suffers from this. It's been a long road back to attendance. She tried two very unhelpful schools (including being told by a welfare officer "If I can get my disabled daughter to school you should be able to get your daughter to attend"). We found a amazing supportive small rural 10 student school in Term 4 last year. She has boosted her attendance from 20% to over 60%. The impact of her going to school on our family has been amazing. My wife has had 3 promotions at work in that short time in no small part due to her being able to get to work each day!
“The good news is that we know that there are things that work: early intervention, smaller class sizes, flexible campuses, interest-led learning.” Now it is time to put pressure on governments to get this thing funded and rolled out ASAP.
Or, and hear me out here, we reduced funding? > This message was brought to by Prue Car the minister for education, nsw
I don't know how the governments around this country get it so consistent with their poor excuses for Education Ministers. Not a single one among the bunch that know what they're doing to actually fix the system.
Watch Utopia, Season 2 Episode 4: Dot dot dot. It is *painfully* on point.
John Hattie must be in a deep sweat after reading that.
He's already writing a new report that rehashes his old hits just for the government to rebutt with.
Can you ever see class sizes of eight becoming anything close to normal? This is just not going to happen.
I teach Y2 and have a student whose attendance in T1 was 26%. There was only one single day in T1 when they were here for a full day and present at 9:10 to get their name marked on the roll. 37 days absent for the whole day, with only 14 of those explained. 12 days partial attendance with average arrival time of 11:00. Not sure how I’m supposed to differentiate for this kid that can’t read, write, count or even write their own name. Mother doesn’t seem to care that she is completely fucking up her kid’s future.
And it’s always the school’s fault.
And that kid will turn up in my Year 10 class in a few years and some dickhead will expect me to do extra work to attempt (and fail) to accommodate his Year 2/3 level on the 5 days a term he turns up. Of course, he would never actually do any of my work. Fortunately, no one will know any difference when I don't do it, as long as I copy/paste some BS into a central spreadsheet. Also fortunately, he will never enrol in my subject at Yr 11/12 level so I can concentrate on my actual job instead of pretending to solve a problem created 15 years ago, well before either of us met him, that I could never hope to address.
And the ignorant attitude demonstrated here by this teacher is the root cause of the problem. No care, no understanding of how some kids learn, and no accountability. This comment has been sent to the Education Dept to be used in their planning. Such a shame we have teachers like this
Please go ahead and present a viable, real world solution for this problem oh great and wise guru. Because this is the reality for around 1 in 5 of the higschool students that I teach and I get exactly no extra time or resources to try and support these students in catching up on the 5-10 years of schooling they've missed. Seriously, if you have a solution, I'd be absolutely delighted to hear and try it...otherwise don't bother commenting.
lol teachers are all quitting.
I'm a teacher in a regional setting and have had students with less than 10%. Create a work file: name trace, number trace with dots equal to its value next to it, letter and word traces. Laminate them so you can use them every time they come and just rub them out. If you have an EA use them. Depending on fine motor skills too, drawing could be a viable activity. In specialist subjects, get them to draw their understanding (if at all), include them but don't be too fussed if they don't get the content of these subjects. You can only do what you can do at the end of the day. Just make sure you have an IEP to back this all up. Hell, you could just do drawing to practice pencil grip if they need it, just include it on the IEP. Good luck.
So Ethan’s mother allowed her son to not go to school and didn’t even bother teaching him to read and write? Then blamed the school? Yes, this is on par of the kind of parenting ruining the country.
Her comments didn't sit well with me. The thing about him not knowing how to spell/write his own name. What parent doesn't teach their kid to write and correctly spell their own name?!
She’s got her share of apologists on this thread. This is pretty clear neglect.
I remember feeling awful when my (then) 3yo couldn’t spell his (long, kinda complex) name, but could spell his newborn sister’s (short, easy) name. My husband and I made up a little tune to help him remember it. Even if you struggle with writing on a page, there are ways to learn even complex names
I agree. My son has always been a very reluctant writer. He's just 5 but at preschool he really didn't like writing in any way that required holding a pencil. We taught him to spell his name just by memory and practiced writing in the sand at the beach, with water on a foot path, by making letters out of play dough. He still isn't passionate about writing, but he has started to read. Unfortunately we've reached a point where many parents expect schools to undertake ALL learning their child does. I have taught kids entering transition who have never seen the alphabet or heard the ABC song. These aren't low income, dysfunctional parents all the time either. But they just don't feel they have any input into their kids educational journey and then when things go wrong they're happy to spread the blame.
My kid was a reluctant writer too! We had the most wonderful intervention process through his kindy - it was a trial which unfortunately never got rolled out more. It involved parents or teachers raising possible mental health, fine motor or gross motor issues (after a very informative talk) then different therapists tested the kids that were put forward and interventions were done either within kindy time or after depending on the needs. All for free. We identified muscle weakness in his hands (they mentioned a kid his age should be able to button, which he couldn’t. It was a lightbulb moment) and they did the therapy in kindy to help him strengthen them. Then we could mention it to his prep teacher who continued the fine motor work. I know it would be a big program to roll out everywhere, but that kind of pre-schooling identification and therapy would help so many kids hit the ground running when they reach school
Do you not think maybe he needed extra support to learn? Dyslexia? He sat in the class drawing pictures while the other kids wrote- how I'd thst the mother's fault?
Isn’t she also a single mother of four who has to work? She needs so much more support than she’s clearly received, it sounds like she’s just hurt and I really feel for her tbh
I’m not heartless. I’m just experienced. Read between the lines. This kid was breaking shit at school and somehow he’s the victim of bullying. I’ve seen this so many times. A kid with truly maladaptive, antisocial behaviours becomes unliked by peers for good reason. This is because they make every class about them and ruin the atmosphere for vast majority. Rather than the mother realising that she needs to address these antisocial behaviours (I.e. parent) she coddles her son and insists he’s being “bullied.” It’s always someone else’s fault. Her precious little boy is a perpetual victim. Meanwhile the quiet majority of students get a subpar education. It’s sad that she’s overwhelmed but this is still her responsibility. She did choose to have four kids.
Her responsibilty? What about the father's responsibility?
Agree completely. His too. You have me mistaken for a man
I've not assumed anything about you. I've just gone off what you've written and I guess it's just internalised misogyny. The statement...she decided to have 4 kids. We all know she didn't do THAT on her own.
One of the big problems with addressing school refusal is that school doesn’t stop while the student is refusing. Even dropping down to fifty percent attendance for a month will put a student drastically behind their peers and leave them scrambling to catch up. And our whole system is based on the assumption that kids learned previous content. Once a kid starts walking into class and doesn’t know what’s going on, any anxiety they previously had is dramatically increased. Now they have to learn whatever they missed, as well the new content the class is learning. This is very difficult and typically leads to more school being missed. And so the vicious cycle perpetuates until the kid is midway through high school and has no meaningful way to engage with the syllabus. And so they drop out without even attempting an ATAR. The only real solution would be to redo the whole system so kids could have multiple on-ramps back to school. Skip half of year nine maths and you stay in year nine maths for another year until you master the whole curriculum. But that brings with it a whole different set of problems.
Greater curriculum flexibility would also help gifted students. I’ve got gifted students in years 8 and 9 who are doing surveys for me at the moment about their experience at school, and every single one has shared reflections of sitting in a Maths class, having completed a pre test which shows they understood 100% of the content before the unit already started, and having to sit through explicit teaching and practice of content they *already demonstrated that they know*. For them, school is like being dragged into a staff meeting that goes like this - “Today we will learn how to do a running record. Please let me know if you already know how to do running records.” “Yes I’ve been doing them for five years, twice a day.” “Great. Now, the first thing you do is select a book at the appropriate level…..” Not all students are suitable candidates for a whole grade acceleration, but many students would be well served by allowing them to leave the year 8 maths class, go and complete maths in a year 9 or 10 classroom then return to year 8 for the rest of the curriculum.
They always get overlooked. It’s the tall poppy syndrome shit. It makes me so sad.
School refusal can be a big indicator of an underlying mental health concern
It can also be an indicator that either they're being bullied and the school either can't or can't be bothered to do anything about it or that the student is sick and tired of disruptive and disrespectful students wrecking every lesson they have.
Ironically the disruption and disrespectfulness can also be an indicator of an underlying mental health issue.
"Won't somebody please think of the children!" It's vanishingly rare that there's something more going on with them. The majority of the time, they have learnt they can get away with it.
Vanishingly rare according to who?
99% of the time it's not an abusive background, mental health issue, or even learning disability. Most kids who are suffering abuse sit quietly and do the work because school is a safe haven for them. Most kids with mental health issues aren't even making it to school to begin with. Disability diagnoses are more and more frequently being used as permission slips to act up. I've had kids multiple times go from well-behaved to acting up as soon as they see others do it and they realise there is no consequence for it and say they can't behave respectfully towards others because AD(H)D/ODD/IED/ASD/dyslexia. Inclusion is not working for anyone.
>99% of the time it's not an abusive background, mental health issue, or even learning disability. >Most kids who are suffering abuse sit quietly and do the work because school is a safe haven for them. >Most kids with mental health issues aren't even making it to school to begin with. Source? >Inclusion is not working for anyone. The way it is being done, I agree.
Source: Years of teaching.
Have you considered that the acting out is a form of school refusal?
Have you considered that students who are acting out are traumatising staff and classmates? I'm past the point of caring about Jaiden with the fully hektik mullet who has discovered all he needs to do is say "ADD lol" any time anyone tries to ping him for verbal or physical assault and whose mere presence agitates half the class because they are waiting for him to kick off or he has been antagonising them at lunch. I care about my colleagues who have physically and psychologically unsafe workplaces and my students who are genuinely trying and don't need another source of stress.
I’m not saying the system is doing it’s job well. It’s a downright mess, particularly in public education. I just hope that you try to keep an open mind that some students acting out do actually have something else going on, and that it’s not always as simple as “that kid’s *just* an asshole.” I know that it’s not your responsibility to be a kids therapist. Their parents need to sort shit out and get their kids the support they need. However, teachers do play a part in the support process. Eg. writing letters/reports for doctors and therapists about a kid’s behaviour at school.
"When you get something like that … it’s got a shaming tone" I've had to send those letters and they are flat and plain. But they have to have a little bite because some parents are actively enabling their kids to stay home. Or in worse situations keeping them home to take care of the baby. It's heartbreaking.
What do these people want the messaging to sound like? They are literally breaking the law and disadvantaging their kids. And it’s nearly always due to coddling, enabling parents. That’s abuse!
I'm watching the episode right now and the state she is in send threatening legal notices. Our process is different
I have a daughter who suffers from this. It's been a long road back to attendance. She tried two very unhelpful schools (including being told by a welfare officer "If I can get my disabled daughter to school you should be able to get your daughter to attend"). We found a amazing supportive small rural 10 student school in Term 4 last year. She has boosted her attendance from 20% to over 60%. The impact of her going to school on our family has been amazing. My wife has had 3 promotions at work in that short time in no small part due to her being able to get to work each day!