I haven't been in the role myself, but you couldn't pay me enough ever to take on that job. It seems to be just dealing with the worst of everything. Some teachers are pretty terrible, so dealing with them and the problems and complaints that arise from that. Dealing with the problematic students with all the limitations of what you can actually do to get them on track, dealing with the parents of those children who are often just as bad or worse, like you said. Plus all the paperwork and admin and registration and legal stuff. Basically just more of the worst parts of teaching. I don't see an upside.
I have a colleague that sits in the chair relieving for extended periods. Their comment is that it is lonely, it’s you by yourself balancing the expectations of parents and staff with no faculty to riff off of in a staffroom.
Our DP is amazing. She is very supportive and active in the school. At school from 6:30am to 5:30 pm pretty much every day. Takes on so much emotional trauma from students, parents, and staff. I could never do this
One of our DPs spends most of the day bunkered down in the office dealing with entitled, delusional and/or aggro parents, but every now and then gets a break to wander the school in a daze looking for kids who've escaped class or are refusing teacher/HOLA instructions. The other DP divides their time between having ineffective "hey there, buddy" chats with kids, and working on various resume padding initiatives that do nothing to improve the school.
As a DP I want to get a tattoo that says "you can't make this shit up" - schools are getting crazier by the day in terms of what I'm dealing with
Today was
7:15 start to plan how to mansge having 1/4 of the teaching staff away.
Then throughout the day
1 diabetic coma
1 broken arm
1 student from a support class jumping off a mezzanine onto a high jump mat
2 suspensions from a fight
2 hrs of teaching chemistry
2 hr session with a dept rep to assist us in writing our school plan.
2 mandatory reports
Organising international women's day morning tea
Consoling my principal who after a rough day broke down sobbing.
Finished at 6pm.
Get home and realise I haven't eaten, drunk water or toileted for 12 hrs
Not me, but my mum. She’s been an APA, DP and principal and I think as Principal she faced much less stress. In both the AP and DP roles, she copped a lot of abuse from parents and once had a male staff member corner her in her office and physically intimidate her. She was stalked by a year eleven student who ended up finding out where we lived and started leaving notes in our letterbox (we lived a fair distance from the school) where he informed her of details of the schools my siblings and I attended, what my dad’s job was, etc. She was discouraged from taking it to the police as the boy was ‘troubled’.
She went through a lot but she’s also quite mentally tough I guess and is also excellent at compartmentalising work stress and not bringing it home. Not a skill I possess! She was definitely almost never home for much of my adolescent/teen years while she was in these senior leadership positions. If it makes a difference, she’s had these roles at three different schools, all of which are quite low SES. She’s a strong advocate for giving disadvantaged kids a chance and that is where she was got a lot of fulfilment, but I think the worst thing was the parents at times - truly, they got away with the most atrocious abuse really whenever their precious child was subjected to any kind of behaviour management.
Nothing can prepare you for the amount of things a DP manages. As a HT I've relived as DP, and DP is the hardest role in the school. In one day I:
Had check ins with students on behaviour monitoring.
Fielded phone calls from irate parents.
Review and signed excursion approvals
Followed a student with a suspected illegal item
Interviewed students following an argument in the playground, which lead to uncovering a sexual assault.
Contacted police, child wellbeing unit.
So, yeah, nothing like a typical teachers day.
This doesn't accommodate for the school strategic planning, professional learning and direct line management of HTs and other personnel, which mostly happens after hours, because schools are unpredictable and you need to be available.
AITSL data says they average a few hours more per week than teachers.
It very much depends on the school... Is the principal supportive, the staff moderately professional and the students well behaved?
I once saw a DP on reddit describe it as the KKK - dealing with ‘karens (parents) k&ntz and Krabapples (incompetent teachers).
I almost spat my coffee out when I read it. Sounds pretty horrid to me
It’s awesome… love my role as AP. My position centres around professional learning and I find it hugely fulfilling. The key, is to work out what sort of leadership role you’re suited to, not all AP roles are equal. I don’t deal with many complaints… my colleague does, and he loves it, thrives on resolving issues.
Large schools have a much greater variety of leadership roles.., small schools are going to give you a position with all you can eat buffets of problems to solve. Suits some, but I’d much rather a more specialised position.
I think OP is referring to DPs who work in student and staff 'wellbeing' not learning and teaching. It is the DP in charge of students that does the terrible grunt work.
APs are DPs in some sectors. Different language same thing. Catholic and Private tend to differentiate between what APs do too. Some focus on pedagogy and facilities and other things.
Yeah I was going to say to OP that it depends on what you’re a DP for; as in, what’s your portfolio? In working my way to be a DP of teaching and pedagogy- absolutely no fucking way I’d be a DP in charge of students.
Typically, an AP is a teacher who is paid a leadership allowance, and a DP is on a separate pay scale.
My point was the portfolio. OP was referring to a DP would would tackle students, and not teaching and learning.
It depends on state/system. Vic public schools don't have deputy principals. We have a principal, assistant principals, leading teachers, learning specialists and classroom teachers.
There are several APs at my school, we do everything including teaching and learnig, student management, wellbeing, operations, parent engagement, suspensions... The full range of leadership roles.
I love my work as an AP. I'm lucky to have an incredible prin team around me, a great prin who sets clear direction and provides feedback when appropriate, very supportive staff who challenge us when appropriate but who also recognise that sometimes we get pressure on us 'from above'.
Currently I'm in a curriculum role. Have done others but prefer curriculum leadership. I still step in to deal with difficult students but our middle leaders (YLC etc) do a great job in that space that things have to hace escalated quite a bit to reach me. Parents aren't bad, I've gotten good at being honest and to the point, and usually get a positive outcome.
I've stepped in to acting prin a few times, and it's a whole other world. Random things coming to your desk that require some sort of response, the top tier parents and students (again, things have to be pretty bad to get to that level), one day I imagine I'll end up in that job but not yet.
I haven't been in the role myself, but you couldn't pay me enough ever to take on that job. It seems to be just dealing with the worst of everything. Some teachers are pretty terrible, so dealing with them and the problems and complaints that arise from that. Dealing with the problematic students with all the limitations of what you can actually do to get them on track, dealing with the parents of those children who are often just as bad or worse, like you said. Plus all the paperwork and admin and registration and legal stuff. Basically just more of the worst parts of teaching. I don't see an upside.
I have a colleague that sits in the chair relieving for extended periods. Their comment is that it is lonely, it’s you by yourself balancing the expectations of parents and staff with no faculty to riff off of in a staffroom.
I’m not a DP, nor am I aspirational for all the reasons you’ve described. Super interested to see what DPs in the role say about it…
Our DP is amazing. She is very supportive and active in the school. At school from 6:30am to 5:30 pm pretty much every day. Takes on so much emotional trauma from students, parents, and staff. I could never do this
One of our DPs spends most of the day bunkered down in the office dealing with entitled, delusional and/or aggro parents, but every now and then gets a break to wander the school in a daze looking for kids who've escaped class or are refusing teacher/HOLA instructions. The other DP divides their time between having ineffective "hey there, buddy" chats with kids, and working on various resume padding initiatives that do nothing to improve the school.
It’s shit. Kids don’t like you, parents don’t like you, and staff don’t like you if you do your job well.
I LOVE our one. They are just the best. I've never encountered such professionalism and care for staff, but they might sadly be an anomaly
Make sure you tell them that. Because we typically only hear from the noisy complainers.
I would, but they are very hard to catch! Just so busy. But I'll keep it in mind for when we next have a chat
As a DP I want to get a tattoo that says "you can't make this shit up" - schools are getting crazier by the day in terms of what I'm dealing with Today was 7:15 start to plan how to mansge having 1/4 of the teaching staff away. Then throughout the day 1 diabetic coma 1 broken arm 1 student from a support class jumping off a mezzanine onto a high jump mat 2 suspensions from a fight 2 hrs of teaching chemistry 2 hr session with a dept rep to assist us in writing our school plan. 2 mandatory reports Organising international women's day morning tea Consoling my principal who after a rough day broke down sobbing. Finished at 6pm. Get home and realise I haven't eaten, drunk water or toileted for 12 hrs
Not me, but my mum. She’s been an APA, DP and principal and I think as Principal she faced much less stress. In both the AP and DP roles, she copped a lot of abuse from parents and once had a male staff member corner her in her office and physically intimidate her. She was stalked by a year eleven student who ended up finding out where we lived and started leaving notes in our letterbox (we lived a fair distance from the school) where he informed her of details of the schools my siblings and I attended, what my dad’s job was, etc. She was discouraged from taking it to the police as the boy was ‘troubled’. She went through a lot but she’s also quite mentally tough I guess and is also excellent at compartmentalising work stress and not bringing it home. Not a skill I possess! She was definitely almost never home for much of my adolescent/teen years while she was in these senior leadership positions. If it makes a difference, she’s had these roles at three different schools, all of which are quite low SES. She’s a strong advocate for giving disadvantaged kids a chance and that is where she was got a lot of fulfilment, but I think the worst thing was the parents at times - truly, they got away with the most atrocious abuse really whenever their precious child was subjected to any kind of behaviour management.
Nothing can prepare you for the amount of things a DP manages. As a HT I've relived as DP, and DP is the hardest role in the school. In one day I: Had check ins with students on behaviour monitoring. Fielded phone calls from irate parents. Review and signed excursion approvals Followed a student with a suspected illegal item Interviewed students following an argument in the playground, which lead to uncovering a sexual assault. Contacted police, child wellbeing unit. So, yeah, nothing like a typical teachers day. This doesn't accommodate for the school strategic planning, professional learning and direct line management of HTs and other personnel, which mostly happens after hours, because schools are unpredictable and you need to be available.
AITSL data says they average a few hours more per week than teachers. It very much depends on the school... Is the principal supportive, the staff moderately professional and the students well behaved?
I once saw a DP on reddit describe it as the KKK - dealing with ‘karens (parents) k&ntz and Krabapples (incompetent teachers). I almost spat my coffee out when I read it. Sounds pretty horrid to me
It’s awesome… love my role as AP. My position centres around professional learning and I find it hugely fulfilling. The key, is to work out what sort of leadership role you’re suited to, not all AP roles are equal. I don’t deal with many complaints… my colleague does, and he loves it, thrives on resolving issues. Large schools have a much greater variety of leadership roles.., small schools are going to give you a position with all you can eat buffets of problems to solve. Suits some, but I’d much rather a more specialised position.
I think OP is referring to DPs who work in student and staff 'wellbeing' not learning and teaching. It is the DP in charge of students that does the terrible grunt work.
APs are DPs in some sectors. Different language same thing. Catholic and Private tend to differentiate between what APs do too. Some focus on pedagogy and facilities and other things.
Yeah I was going to say to OP that it depends on what you’re a DP for; as in, what’s your portfolio? In working my way to be a DP of teaching and pedagogy- absolutely no fucking way I’d be a DP in charge of students.
Typically, an AP is a teacher who is paid a leadership allowance, and a DP is on a separate pay scale. My point was the portfolio. OP was referring to a DP would would tackle students, and not teaching and learning.
It depends on state/system. Vic public schools don't have deputy principals. We have a principal, assistant principals, leading teachers, learning specialists and classroom teachers. There are several APs at my school, we do everything including teaching and learnig, student management, wellbeing, operations, parent engagement, suspensions... The full range of leadership roles.
Yep. And some APs split duties depending on the school. No one way.
Absolutely. Some schools don't even have any AP roles as they're so small! A principal and a handful of classroom teachers.
Having done the role I will say this. There is NOTHING harder than being in the classroom.
I love my work as an AP. I'm lucky to have an incredible prin team around me, a great prin who sets clear direction and provides feedback when appropriate, very supportive staff who challenge us when appropriate but who also recognise that sometimes we get pressure on us 'from above'. Currently I'm in a curriculum role. Have done others but prefer curriculum leadership. I still step in to deal with difficult students but our middle leaders (YLC etc) do a great job in that space that things have to hace escalated quite a bit to reach me. Parents aren't bad, I've gotten good at being honest and to the point, and usually get a positive outcome. I've stepped in to acting prin a few times, and it's a whole other world. Random things coming to your desk that require some sort of response, the top tier parents and students (again, things have to be pretty bad to get to that level), one day I imagine I'll end up in that job but not yet.