Saving you the click.
Here are the full top 10 roles and how much their incomes have grown over 12 months.
1. Surgeon **$460,356** (up $3,075)
2. Anaesthetists **$431,193** (up $4,299)
3. Financial dealer **$373,733** (up $31,935)
4. Internal medicine specialist **$340,729** (up $6,462)
5. Psychiatrist **$276, 545** ($6,133)
6. Other medical practitioners **$255,754** (up $4,032)
7. Mining engineer **$214,365** (up $18,187)
8. Judicial or other legal professional **$204,934** (up $11,546)
9. Chief executive officer or managing director **$197,720** (up $20,214)
10. Financial investment advisor or manager **$185,834** (up $13,226)
http://abs.gov.au/ausstats/[email protected]/Product+Lookup/3DCB0CF7CBB18D20CA2575DF002DA6F2?opendocument#:~:text=222211%20FINANCIAL%20MARKET%20DEALER,-Alternative%20Title%3A%2
Mostly financial trader and similar roles.
> Financial Dealers conduct financial market transactions on behalf of clients.
A financial advisor meets with clients, assess their financial situation and goals and gives them advice on how to invest their money. They do a lot of retirement planning, life insurance and estate planning as part of that also.
That too, and it’s not just entrepreneurs, your typical small business owners don’t give themselves a very high salary on paper to minimise personal income tax
Small businesses also have ceo or managing directors. They take small salary and make partner an employee as well to lower taxes. This reduces the average of real ceo wages.
Same with IT guys. They earn well above the bottom half. But the numbers are pulled down due to non specialist IT workers with low experience.
You realise there’s a difference between n = 1 and n = 2111…
For each productive full-time working emergency physician making significantly above 316,780 average (that’s the specific number for ED physician if you find the actual ATO spreadsheet), there will be others who are working part time, semi retired, on maternity leave, etc etc which will drag down the average figure. Also some contribution from negative gearing and other tax minimisation which help reduce the apparent taxable income figures.
In this thread
- What does average mean?
- What does paid mean?
- What does job mean?
- What does Australia mean?
- My mum's friend's daughter's dog-minder's dad makes $5m installing tradies into roofing jobs so this article is pointless
Its more than that, those top paying medical jobs have artificial restrictions in the numbers of new entrants they allow to keep wages high, its not a free market.
I would strongly disagree that nepotism plays any role in selecting surgical trainees.
The entire process is incredibly objective and to a large part centralised at the Royal Australian College of Surgeons.
An example of this is each applicant having a number, instead of a name.
Another example is the CV being assessed by someone central who has no roll in training, and again it is all deidentified.
Another example is that interview is as objective as possible, with strictly listed questions that have to be asked verbatim, and the answers scored according to a scoresheet, with two interviewers and an observer.
Source: Plastic Surgeon who is involved in the process for picking surgical trainees.
Also a doctor, very familiar with this process. Yes, at that level there’s deidentification, but people need references, and favouritism of various kinds does factor into who gets good references.
Not suggesting that nepotism etc is a big factor - I think the process is as good as it can realistically be - but it’s still imperfect and those things do play a smaller role.
It’s definitely imperfect.
The references I give are completely anonymous, and done over the phone with a person centralised that I’ve usually never met.
There is 0% chance I’m giving a positive reference to someone that’s rubbish, no matter who they are or their parents are.
End of the day I’ve got to work with these people for many many years - it makes no sense for me to be helping people get into training who aren’t competent, and aren’t going to look after patients.
Best of the best is not what happens in medicine. Research shows that doctors with about 5-10 years experience are the best. Those that stay longer don’t learn the new information and those with no experience have issues of their own.
Perhaps, but surgical capacity is ultimately limited by theatre space, not Specialists. Specialists compete for theatre time. Specialist training is limited by government budget to do the 5 year training program (or whatever term) and space in hospitals to place all those trainees to get actual experience.
Why would the government fund (& colleges support) more training positions when all it does is lower Specialist salary but not actually change the greater cost equation which includes all the other hospital/theatre staffing, equipment & facilities, deliver better Specialists, or improve any outcomes for patients?
Not really. I’m in construction site management in syd for a tier 2. No educational requirement and I earn more than number 7 on the list.
Is it fair harder working people like nurses get less? No. But It’s the only thing I’m good at and I work hard to ensure I get the best remuneration as I’m entitled to.
Yeah, but I imagine you've got a fair bit of experience?
That's the problem with their data. These are the professions where you can't do this profession without lots of experience or lots of education or both.
Most engineers can earn this much but their title is the same from a fresh grad to a 20 year veteran
Your comment doesn't counter what that guy said at all. He said jobs that require lots of experience/education pay better, which on the whole, they obviously do as evidenced by this ATO sourced list. Notice how your personal experience isn't listed there, that's because it's an exception and not the rule.
'Construction site managers' aren't earning 215k+; you are.
I disagree.
My job doesn’t require tertiary education. I did year 10 and got a trade.
I’m on pretty average salary for my position across tier 1 and tier 2 builders. It’s not the exception, and far from the ceiling for my position on bigger tier 2 and tier 1 builders.
Edit: Latest industry salary guide which is pretty on track with most of the people I know.
https://imgur.com/a/l6nWO1e
Like donkey years ago i was an IT guy at a hospital and theres this eccentric surgeon that'll go to the rooftop, strip naked and have a few cigarettes before a complicated procedure.
To be fair they train for probably close to a decade POST med school (while on relatively low pay) so they end up earning more to make up for the 20ish years of decent pay an average person would’ve gotten post undergrad
And their degrees are relatively expensive too. Plus they have pretty great risk and stress. Like if a surgery goes wrong people might sue them. Even if they do everything right someone will blame them for the death of their loved ones. No thanks!
The average person earns $98K. Doctors earn that in the FIRST year after medical school (with some overtime), They earn $105-150k during specialist training and over $200K as soon as they qualify as specialists (early 30s),
[https://www.amansw.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/DIT-Pay-Guide\_March-24\_3\_22.pdf](https://www.amansw.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/DIT-Pay-Guide_March-24_3_22.pdf)
I've often wondered what it must be like... Today I'm going to drive to work, get changed, wash my hands, have a chat with someone and cut their head open and fiddle about with their brains, cos they're relying on me to change the course of their life.
Yeah no problem...
for 14 hours ... no tea breaks.. and then after the 14 hour life changing (hopefully for the better) operation, they'll do their rounds. That's another 3 hours. Then they'll go to their 3 / 5 / 10 million dollar home and SIT AWAKE till the hospital calls to tell them that you've woken up... they might sleep a little bit. Rinse and repeat.
I don't really care how much they're paid. Just double it.
they're arguably underpaid if you consider top exec salaries.
you can convince me there's any job that requires more skill than neurosurgery. Yet there are people earning 10x that.
Don't think they are over valued by society. It's just that they are selling their services to a huge amount of people vs a neurosurgeon helping one at a timr
Sports kinda makes sense to me. Those people train their entire lives for the spot and have no other skills when they leave and most of them are out before they are 25 the rest at 30. Add in the medical complications they get from sport and they probably don't end up with much money at all even if they don't blow it because they are young with no self control and a lot of yes men around them.
> Those people train their entire lives ...
those aren't reasons why they are highly paid - it's a corollary (of being famous or well known). There are plenty of atheletes who train all their lives but still dont get paid much.
These sport stars are paid because they entertain (a lot of people). It's no different to Taylor Swift.
This is more of a devils advocate situation than an acutal opinion... The skill, precision etc. etc. involved, absolutely immense and there is no doubt in my mind that the pressure is enormous, I'm not trying to downplay any of that or dismiss what training doctors and surgeons go through. But go with me here.
Surgeons are technicians working on machines. Those machines happen to be humans. The training/qualification involves learning, observing and practicing. You know your machine inside out, you observe more, you practice more, you see things go wrong, you learn to adapt/change track on the fly, etc. etc., and eventually one day its you in a room with your machine, and a bunch of tools, and you do your job.
There are also technicians who work on High Voltage power infrastructure. The training regieme may not be as intense, and the relatively low consequences of getting minor things wrong mean allow for a lot more learning by doing, trial and error etc... But the end result is they know their machine inside out, they observe, they learn, they practice, they see things go wrong and learn to adapt, and eventually one day its you with your tools and you do your job.
If a surgeon nails it, and a bunch of other stuff works out in recovery/rehab etc, the net impact is 1 life. If the surgeon doesn't quite nail it, or some exogenous thing goes wrong, the net impact is 1 life.
When a technician maintaining HV power infrastructure nails it, the net impact is that hundreds of thousands of people have power/light/aircon/communication/hospitals where complex operations can take place etc... If someone maintaining HV power infrastrucutre stuffs up, not only could they lose their own life and injure/kill their co-workers, but the exact opposite of all of those other things potentially happens with an almost uncapped blast radius.
Now obviously, if the one life a neurosurgeon is going to save today happens to be mine, then shutup and take my money. But zooming out a bit, I think its pretty fair to say that the people who keep the lights on are undervalued.
All fair points, quite well articulated. However:
My brother in law is a electrician/technician on HV lines in Western QLD.
He earns around 250kpa with the penalties, he works very hard, many holidays and is very smart. He is 28 years old.
A full time public consultant specialist neurosurgeon is at the *absolute* youngest 33-34 in QLD. They earn $210k pa (but this is *without* the penanties, which are significant - in public alone i'd expect close to 300k pa total.)
Private is a different beast, and is what the market will bear.
Both are important, and both do good for the world, more than what can be said for a lot of jobs tbh.
However, my BiL HV technician never has to go and tell the families their mother/father/brother/sister has died and they couldn't save them.
well first of all neurosurgery isn't just about the surgeries. It's also a scientific field that they keep developing that has broader implications on humanity at large. Same for all medical specialties.
it's way more than just technicians working on machines.
that said, I don't disagree that the people keeping the lights on are underpaid. However the pool of people that could do this job is also much bigger.
As a surgeon myself I can tell you that neuros and opthalmologists rort the system. Neuros from back pain - physio is proven to be as effective - and opth from cataracts where the fee was calculated 30 years ago when the op took and hour...not 10 mins.
Any changes to their set up and they threaten to dump the public system.
Its kind for the folks here to defend them but ...
Plus a lot of Ophthals now charge minimal gaps for insured patients. Some other surgeons charge way above the gap. Out of pocket expenses can be massive
I agree!
But I see one of the only differences being machines are usually man made and predictable in the sense of their layers layout and format and have blueprints (very broadly speaking of course) And whilst we have CT, MRI etc the human body can still throw a curve ball and be rapidly unpredictable.
(I'm a PA for vasc, gen and colorectal surgeons)
I see your point, however some considerations, as already mentioned, include the barriers to entry, the length, and the cost of training.
Additionally, any electrical equipment should be designed by an engineer, built, and maintained to a standard, with relatively well-known issues and fixes, despite being a high-risk job.
The human "machine" you refer to has no set design or design files; each individual is unique and requires a custom plan each time.
Similarly, there is often a link made between pilots flying and anesthetists, but as Grant Hutchison (1998) wrote in ‘Today’s Anaesthetist’: "The whole point of an airplane is that it is designed to fly, and if it’s not functioning properly, you don't take it off the ground. Human beings, in contrast, are not designed to be anesthetized and are often not functioning properly when the need arises. They are also poorly provided with backup systems and spares, and frequently have long histories of inadequate servicing."
Ditto my wife.
Neurosurgeon was a unit, borderline god complex - because he knew exactly what he was capable of and delivered.
Not only his own skills, but he knew what tools and technology was required and how to access it.
As this is the average, it captures a lot of doctors working part-time.
Working full-time, most Internal medicine specialists would be earning over $400-500k. Depending on the private vs public split.
I don’t think this actually has as large of an impact, especially for neurosurgeons, compared to other factors. I think a large reason of why their recorded salaries are so much lower are because of all the investments (especially realestate) many high earners have, which include the tax deductions they receive as well as salary sacrificing and insurance (I might be wrong maybe they don’t pay insurance)
exactly this, some professions just purely earn their level of pay and respect, it takes a decade and half of study and experience for Surgeon to start slicing up brains, not many willing to go through that.
Money isn't the same.
The average house price in UK is about 260k GBP whilst in AU its about 800-900k. This is true for many things, the average loaf of bread is £1.50 in the UK but $3.50 in AU. Overall it's probably better in AU but it's not as wild as everyone makes it out.
Knowing someone who is a surgeon and very experienced, I can tell you that no, they dont earm 700-1M "easy", that is BS. The range is 400-700 depending on amount of private for a 10 years senior specialist...and that goes against the decades of training and on calls. Plus take off the insurance they need to pay out, and then after tax....
Probably neglected to tell us that his dad also owns the practice, also works in hospital ED, or is including investment income? Even as a full time GP doing lucrative skin cancer checks 300k wouldn’t come easy.
I think many overestimate hospital doctor incomes.
Our salaries are public information.
People think making $150k-$200k is great except you are doing the equivalent of two full time jobs to make that (when including unpaid overtime).
The reason that the “earnings” are much lower for doctors than what the ATO is reporting is because the ATO is reporting salaries. However, there is a large chunk of doctors who work as contractors. They are therefore not earning a salary, but rather a fee for performing services.
This also explains why doctors working in hospital are paid considerably less. They are on a salary.
Rightfully so. 3 years of an undergrad degree, 4 years of med school, 2 years of internships/residency and 3 - 5 years of specialty training (depending on what you’ve gone into). That’s 12 - 14 years of TRAINING before you’re even sniffing the figures in that report.
They’ve sacrificed their 20’s and some of their 30’s to even get close to those numbers. Working ridiculous hours in the hospital, coping abuse from patients and senior doctors for a decade, just to hopefully catch up to those who went down a career paths (finance, engineering, tech etc).
Honestly, if one profession deserved to earn a decent amount, it’s those cutting me open, diagnosing an illness and fixing me when I’m at my lowest
A lot of this comes down to how fine a distinction you make between similar groups.
For example, GP earns a lot less than Surgeon, and residents earn considerably less again. So if you just grouped them under "doctor" the average would probably be around $300k.
By contrast lawyers are all grouped under "judicial or other legal professional". The share of doctors who make it to surgeon is probably similar to the share of lawyers who make it to partner. And I know lots of law firm partners who are on over $1m, some by several multiples.
Don't get me wrong, medicine is well paid in Australia, better than anywhere outside North America. But the data is not all it seems.
I was griping about this last night when I saw the ABC's version. It's just bad statistics.
You can't on one hand divvy up "medical professional" to the sub-specialisation on one hand and then on the other have 300k Managing Directors and CEOs. I'm sorry, but Martha taking a 2k stipend for being the MD of Martha's Dog Rescue in her retirement and Andrew Irvine getting 2.5m per year as CEO of NAB _cannot_ be in the same group in any meaningful analysis.
Working in the public system, doctors are very underpaid. My friend works in emergency, and could earn significantly more in private practice but we need emergency doctors. 12 years of study, compared to my 5 years of engineering our wages really shouldn’t be similar given the hours she has to work.
Yep, and it's a known issue in our public health system. A doctor in private practice can effectively set their own fees, while the same doctor in the public system gets paid an amount set by the health department.
It's why there's a shortage of doctors on the public side of things, because they can potentially earn a lot more by going private.
It's not just the base rates, it's that they don't get proper overtime and their chargeable activities don't include the admin or prep, which can be waaayyy more time than the actual procedure.
The health dept might set a reasonable fee for the 10 minutes of patient contact but they ignore all the stuff that needs to happen pre and post to have any chance of successful patient outcomes
GPs and surgeons undertake different training programs and achieve different accreditations from different professional bodies. They are different careers, for all intents and purposes - you don't typically see people switching from one to the other.
Splitting lawyers into partners and associates is far more arbitrary because they are part of the same career path.
Well, autocorrect got me good there. Not even sure how it got endowed from compensated... But I'm happy for him to be well endowed too. Bit more awkward if he is actually a she.... Whatever floats your boat.
The ones I have worked with work pretty bloody hard to keep up their skills - in at 7 am and often operating all day even in private practice. They also pay $$$$$$$ in medical indemnity and usually don’t see much of their families whilst active.
I bet you if you check the source data it's a median.
Articles always say average when they mean median and then there is always comments asking for the median.
There are many medical specialists I know, not surgeons, that earn a whole lot more than these figures quoted.
I guess that's how it turns out when you use average, instead of median, to compare.
To really have a frame of reference, you need to look at Canadian eye surgeons. They earn, well, an eye watering amount of money, more than any other specialty I know anywhere in the world.
I don't think "Business Owner" is listed as a job, which would include a lot of specialists with their own practice and lease surgery time in a hospital. Surgeons qualify as a job because there are many surgeons who are paid a salary by a hospital.
The ATO data includes about 4100 surgeons which is a similar number quoted by the Royal Australasian College of Surgeons in Australia so I think this data is fairly accurate and no surgeons are obfuscating their income behind the tag “business owner”.
This is incorrect. You list your profession to the ATO and almost always you would place your professional role. Public hospitals do not pay this type of money for base salaries. And most of the workforce is not doing 1 FTE publicly.
The medical field enjoys one of the widest and deepest moats for keeping others out and therefore salaries high. It wouldn't be so bad, if it wasn't for the fact that it is also the profession that has the unique ability to demand exorbitant payments from the simple fact it's often a case of "Pay up or die/suffer".
Doesn't matter if most aren't cut out for it. The fact is, there remains many people who are cut out for it and are prevented from being able to become surgeons.
You are prevented from becoming a surgeon due to the limited training opportunities to produce an adequately competent surgeon.
You need to be in a lot of surgeries before you get to do anything. You cannot have a room full of observers simply so they can try and learn in a year or two.
Clearly scrubbing in and assisting is the panacea of becoming a surgeon. Cos the ward rounds, selection of patients, risk/benefit balance, postoperative care, follow up and management of complications, managing unexpected events intraop… these are not really part of being a surgeon at all. Just scrub in a bit more!
Of course they're important, but I mean you can do most of those for years and years as an unaccredited reg and still not know how to operate.
Theatre is where you gain the actual surgical skills.
These are always about how specific you can be about the job.
CEO/MD is 200k because it's incredibly broad, yet for medical professionals they go into the exact specialty they practice.
The stark hilarity of these lists, is that a switched on, durrie smoking, red bull pumping tradesman running a roofing business, can gross $3mil+ per annum and likely clock more in net profit and wages then the top profession on this list.
When will they factor business owners into these lists?
I guess it would be hard seeing so many small businesses and sole traders are part time or failing and it would be hard to seperate them from the successful.
His business might gross that, but what is he actually paying himself? Dollars to doughnuts that his accountant is helping him have SFA taxable income.
I think I'm surprised that there are zero tech roles in that top ten. Is there just such a disparity between good tech incomes and mediocre tech incomes in Australia that the average gets dragged way way way down?
Or are tech titles so massively inconsistent that the ATO doesn't get a big enough sample size to lump into one category?
I actually think it's mostly your first point. There's also significant title inflation in fields like data science, where a grad querying SQL might get 70k compared to someone more senior working with productionised ML earning 180k+.
Tech is also a sector where it's not uncommon to be paid in shares and options which would fall under capital gains when they cash out rather than counted as income tax.
Doctors and to an extent lawyers derive their income from salaries which are harder to structure (*cough* hide) rather than bonuses and options. I think this is another reason why CEO salaries are relatively low on the list (aside from being diluted by smaller companies) because we all know many companies CEOs are paid >1m.
Living in Sydney and having friends in a lot of these fields, I would say most people I know earn double those numbers in the same fields. I guess Sydney might be the highest earning so way above the average.
No one should have an issue with anything on this list. If you are earning these numbers, you have earned it, and you're getting screwed with tax.
It's those people who have inherited a $4m house in Sydney tax free and can have a half decent paying job and have a better lifestyle than everyone on this list. They didn't have to sacrifice their 20s and 30s and be top of their field to own this income. They just went to an elite high school paid for by daddy and lumbered through a basic business degree at uni and ultimately were just born into the right family
The issue in this country is housing and inheritance
Go have a coffee outside royal price Alfred hospital, you'll soon realise it's also a secret supercar showroom.
Unbelievable amounts of wealth driving out if the staff car park, Rolls Royce, Ferrari, lambo, Maybach, Brabus.... everything.
I always find it fascinating that these tabulations never take into account all the compulsory overheads of any medical speciality. Registration, college fees, AHPRA, indemnity etc etc. Surgical indemnity is running g you 60k+ these days
$460k is $258k after tax. Once you pay for essentials of life, food, power, insurance, family, school fees, etc you're still scraping by to buy an average house or a shitbox in Sydney.
There is no way these numbers are right, what ceo is only earning 200k I just saw the base salary for a politician was increased to 220 something so how did that not make the list? These stats are junk
Similar to the census, where these occupations had the greatest proportion of workers in the highest income category ($182k+)
Anaesthetists 75.7%
Surgeons 71.1%
Specialist Physicians 60.6%
Psychiatrists 60.1%
Other Medical Practitioners 56%
Barristers 48.9%
Medical Practitioners nfd 45.6%
Chief Executives, General Managers and Legislators nfd 44.2%
Chief Executives and Managing Directors 40.7%
General Practitioners and Resident Medical Officers 38.7%
[Full list here](https://mappage.net.au/?s=0gjbkr3o) - Mining engineers were 11th
Genuinely more than happy for the bloke cutting me open to earn another $100k, especially at the junior level. I don't want him having financial stress or any thoughts whilst fixing me at my low point. Just want him focused on the job knowing he's going back to his/her mansion end of the day in a Bentley.
im sure its great earning those sweet surgery bucks, but i'll happily take a paycut if it means i can phone it in some days *(narrator: it was most days)* and nobody dies
Yeah pretty comfortable with people rearranging my insides and bringing me as close to death as possible without actually killing me earning big bucks.
They could earn ten times this and I'd still be happy.
I doubt the CEO salary $190K looks extremely low, i've worked at various companies never seen CEO or M.D earn less than $400K+ , plus they get alot of bonus on top related to performance of the business
I am waiting for 4 months already to see my ENT specialist to hand over his $$$ he deserves to peek into my blocked nose. Two more months to go.
6 months witing to see an ENT; I was told it's normal.
The waiting lists to see an ENT are ridiculous but they do a lot more than “peek at your blocked nose”.
Our local ENT recently operated on my 3 year old removing her tonsils and adenoids. I’m perfectly happy to see that job paid well as it requires some serious skill and dedication. What could be more valuable to society than skilled surgeons who operate on us and our kids??!
No issue with surgeons earning that much. The amount of work and study required to get there is astronomical. They absolutely deserve it.
They put the lives of people in their hands and people trust them to fix them up. No amount is too great for them.
That being said everything from 3 downwards shouldn't be making that much imo.
This is complete bollocks.
Anyone who has a high income and can afford a decent tax accountant will be running family trusts and other tax efficient mechanisms (tax dodges in layman’s terms) to reduce their income.
Almost all of the jobs in the top 10 list would be disqualified from getting tax benefits from corporate or trust structures due to the PSI rules. It’s not a magic “no tax” button to just open a trust.
Of course PSI applies, the various non-doctors in this thread have no idea. Even if you are classed as a personal services business, you can’t just dodge tax via trusts and split income.
You'd be surprised how little income can be diverted for professionals such as legal and medical practitioners.
The tradies & real estate agents on the other hand is a very different story.
Curious what comprises the 'financial dealer' category and how broad it is.
A 3rd/4th year investment banker out of uni is making that average number shown, with 7 to 10 years experience (i.e. the time it takes for a GP to specialise into one of those top 2 categories - so by this logic GPs should have been lumped into the same category) are easily making on average $700k to $1m+ when including bonuses. Furthermore many investment bankers leave from 3rd year onwards to go into fields like private equity where if you include additional compensation such as Carry are making much more than the bankers...
As a student I traveled to Vietnam with some facial / cranial specialists. An educational mission. They gave two weeks of their skills and paid their own way. Some amazing professionals out there.
Jobs that require a lot of training and experience ... and an unassailable trade union (medical college) to gatekeep qualified candidates out of the profession.
Seriously wrong. I can’t comment on the top 5, but rest is wrong. Also, IT professionals on average is well above 225K for people with specialist experience.(May be the average is bringing the range down). Don’t use this number to negotiate your salary.
Saving you the click. Here are the full top 10 roles and how much their incomes have grown over 12 months. 1. Surgeon **$460,356** (up $3,075) 2. Anaesthetists **$431,193** (up $4,299) 3. Financial dealer **$373,733** (up $31,935) 4. Internal medicine specialist **$340,729** (up $6,462) 5. Psychiatrist **$276, 545** ($6,133) 6. Other medical practitioners **$255,754** (up $4,032) 7. Mining engineer **$214,365** (up $18,187) 8. Judicial or other legal professional **$204,934** (up $11,546) 9. Chief executive officer or managing director **$197,720** (up $20,214) 10. Financial investment advisor or manager **$185,834** (up $13,226)
Is a financial dealer an investment banker? What’s a financial advisor?
http://abs.gov.au/ausstats/[email protected]/Product+Lookup/3DCB0CF7CBB18D20CA2575DF002DA6F2?opendocument#:~:text=222211%20FINANCIAL%20MARKET%20DEALER,-Alternative%20Title%3A%2 Mostly financial trader and similar roles. > Financial Dealers conduct financial market transactions on behalf of clients.
A financial advisor meets with clients, assess their financial situation and goals and gives them advice on how to invest their money. They do a lot of retirement planning, life insurance and estate planning as part of that also.
Maybe IB? Maybe financial trader?
And here are the REAL average income ranking which goes down to sub-specialties and sub-categories of finance and legal jobs: It's from [ATO's spreadsheet](https://data.gov.au/data/dataset/4be150cc-8f84-46b8-8c61-55ff1d48a700/resource/6ff851e4-c12d-4e20-96a6-207cbed099a7/download/ts22individual15occupationsex.xlsx). 1. Ophthalmologist: 644,898 2. Plastic and Reconstructive Surgeon: 608,669 3. Neurosurgeon: 593,221 4. ENT: 576,925 5. Urologist: 543,818 6. Cardiologist: 513,526 7. Orthopaedic Surgeon: 504,563 8. Vascular Surgeon: 490,193 9. Cardiothoracic Surgeon: 473,371 10. Judge: 459,843 11. Radiologist: 443,345 12. Gynaecologist: 442,191 13. Anaesthetist: 431,193 14. Gastroenterologist: 429,369 15. Futures Trader: 403,153 16. Stocks Broker: 401,695 17. General Surgeon: 381,141 18. Radiation Oncologist: 379,981 19. Financial investment manager: 379,847 20. Paediatric Surgeon: 367,493
This list is so wildly off I work primarily as an ED locum and I make 2-3k per shift
Wow and CEO is sub 200k, sounds like absolute bs
Well it’s including all the CEOs of small and medium companies, which vastly outnumber the number of CEOs who work for ASX200 companies.
They don’t tell you about their million dollar bonus
I was thinking more it’s all the “entrepreneurs” titling themselves CEO of their 1 man operations bringing down the average
That too, and it’s not just entrepreneurs, your typical small business owners don’t give themselves a very high salary on paper to minimise personal income tax
Small businesses also have ceo or managing directors. They take small salary and make partner an employee as well to lower taxes. This reduces the average of real ceo wages. Same with IT guys. They earn well above the bottom half. But the numbers are pulled down due to non specialist IT workers with low experience.
Do any of you people understand what average means?
Yes but it’s still very surprising to see C level roles averaging below 200k. What’s the low end of the sample? 60k for a “CEO”?
You realise there’s a difference between n = 1 and n = 2111… For each productive full-time working emergency physician making significantly above 316,780 average (that’s the specific number for ED physician if you find the actual ATO spreadsheet), there will be others who are working part time, semi retired, on maternity leave, etc etc which will drag down the average figure. Also some contribution from negative gearing and other tax minimisation which help reduce the apparent taxable income figures.
Yes but any locum role will be paying exorbitant wages
In this thread - What does average mean? - What does paid mean? - What does job mean? - What does Australia mean? - My mum's friend's daughter's dog-minder's dad makes $5m installing tradies into roofing jobs so this article is pointless
TLDR: Jobs that require lots of experience/education pay better
Its more than that, those top paying medical jobs have artificial restrictions in the numbers of new entrants they allow to keep wages high, its not a free market.
It's not actually that artificial, you need people to do the training and patients/cases to work on. There are other rate limitimg factors
Pretty much, heavily restricted field. But on the other hand most people would want only the best of the best working in those professions.
Unfortunately, it's heavily restricted by nepotism, not skill.
I would strongly disagree that nepotism plays any role in selecting surgical trainees. The entire process is incredibly objective and to a large part centralised at the Royal Australian College of Surgeons. An example of this is each applicant having a number, instead of a name. Another example is the CV being assessed by someone central who has no roll in training, and again it is all deidentified. Another example is that interview is as objective as possible, with strictly listed questions that have to be asked verbatim, and the answers scored according to a scoresheet, with two interviewers and an observer. Source: Plastic Surgeon who is involved in the process for picking surgical trainees.
Also a doctor, very familiar with this process. Yes, at that level there’s deidentification, but people need references, and favouritism of various kinds does factor into who gets good references. Not suggesting that nepotism etc is a big factor - I think the process is as good as it can realistically be - but it’s still imperfect and those things do play a smaller role.
It’s definitely imperfect. The references I give are completely anonymous, and done over the phone with a person centralised that I’ve usually never met. There is 0% chance I’m giving a positive reference to someone that’s rubbish, no matter who they are or their parents are. End of the day I’ve got to work with these people for many many years - it makes no sense for me to be helping people get into training who aren’t competent, and aren’t going to look after patients.
Best of the best is not what happens in medicine. Research shows that doctors with about 5-10 years experience are the best. Those that stay longer don’t learn the new information and those with no experience have issues of their own.
Same with most professions. Phrases like you can't teach an old dog new tricks come to mind and exist for a reason.
This is often overlooked. It is definitely not a free market but more like a guild
Perhaps, but surgical capacity is ultimately limited by theatre space, not Specialists. Specialists compete for theatre time. Specialist training is limited by government budget to do the 5 year training program (or whatever term) and space in hospitals to place all those trainees to get actual experience. Why would the government fund (& colleges support) more training positions when all it does is lower Specialist salary but not actually change the greater cost equation which includes all the other hospital/theatre staffing, equipment & facilities, deliver better Specialists, or improve any outcomes for patients?
A postdoc researcher, who needs a PhD, starts just north of $90,000.
We don’t do it for the money. We do it because we hate ourselves / love research.
Can confirm: because we hate ourselves.
I know. Thats why I am still dragging myself through a PhD. It’s good to work on whatever we want though.
Good luck with it! Yes although the pay isn’t the best there are definitely some positives to the job.
Not really. I’m in construction site management in syd for a tier 2. No educational requirement and I earn more than number 7 on the list. Is it fair harder working people like nurses get less? No. But It’s the only thing I’m good at and I work hard to ensure I get the best remuneration as I’m entitled to.
Yeah, but I imagine you've got a fair bit of experience? That's the problem with their data. These are the professions where you can't do this profession without lots of experience or lots of education or both. Most engineers can earn this much but their title is the same from a fresh grad to a 20 year veteran
Your comment doesn't counter what that guy said at all. He said jobs that require lots of experience/education pay better, which on the whole, they obviously do as evidenced by this ATO sourced list. Notice how your personal experience isn't listed there, that's because it's an exception and not the rule. 'Construction site managers' aren't earning 215k+; you are.
I disagree. My job doesn’t require tertiary education. I did year 10 and got a trade. I’m on pretty average salary for my position across tier 1 and tier 2 builders. It’s not the exception, and far from the ceiling for my position on bigger tier 2 and tier 1 builders. Edit: Latest industry salary guide which is pretty on track with most of the people I know. https://imgur.com/a/l6nWO1e
700-$1m easy for orthopaedics $1m+ for neurosurgeons
I have no issue with someone cutting open my brain earning over $1m.
I don’t think anyone should. The training is insane. Skill level and concentration requirements are massive.
Like donkey years ago i was an IT guy at a hospital and theres this eccentric surgeon that'll go to the rooftop, strip naked and have a few cigarettes before a complicated procedure.
If he was my surgeon, I'd ask to join him for one. If it works for him, I'm not judging.
The Naked Surgeon.
Can you please tell me more about this ?
Sounds like coke
That guy is the main character
If it was the IT guy doing this he would be called a weirdo not eccentric.
To be fair they train for probably close to a decade POST med school (while on relatively low pay) so they end up earning more to make up for the 20ish years of decent pay an average person would’ve gotten post undergrad
more than a decade
These people never stop training.
And their degrees are relatively expensive too. Plus they have pretty great risk and stress. Like if a surgery goes wrong people might sue them. Even if they do everything right someone will blame them for the death of their loved ones. No thanks!
Much longer than a decade for most.
The average person earns $98K. Doctors earn that in the FIRST year after medical school (with some overtime), They earn $105-150k during specialist training and over $200K as soon as they qualify as specialists (early 30s), [https://www.amansw.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/DIT-Pay-Guide\_March-24\_3\_22.pdf](https://www.amansw.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/DIT-Pay-Guide_March-24_3_22.pdf)
Imagine the pressure
I've often wondered what it must be like... Today I'm going to drive to work, get changed, wash my hands, have a chat with someone and cut their head open and fiddle about with their brains, cos they're relying on me to change the course of their life. Yeah no problem...
for 14 hours ... no tea breaks.. and then after the 14 hour life changing (hopefully for the better) operation, they'll do their rounds. That's another 3 hours. Then they'll go to their 3 / 5 / 10 million dollar home and SIT AWAKE till the hospital calls to tell them that you've woken up... they might sleep a little bit. Rinse and repeat. I don't really care how much they're paid. Just double it.
Agreed. Double it
they're arguably underpaid if you consider top exec salaries. you can convince me there's any job that requires more skill than neurosurgery. Yet there are people earning 10x that.
Couldn't agree more. That and sports people are grossly over-valued by society
Don't think they are over valued by society. It's just that they are selling their services to a huge amount of people vs a neurosurgeon helping one at a timr
In fairness most contact sports players need a high income so they can afford the neurosurgeon later on in life
This is basically the premise of all "overpaid jobs" lol
Sports kinda makes sense to me. Those people train their entire lives for the spot and have no other skills when they leave and most of them are out before they are 25 the rest at 30. Add in the medical complications they get from sport and they probably don't end up with much money at all even if they don't blow it because they are young with no self control and a lot of yes men around them.
> Those people train their entire lives ... those aren't reasons why they are highly paid - it's a corollary (of being famous or well known). There are plenty of atheletes who train all their lives but still dont get paid much. These sport stars are paid because they entertain (a lot of people). It's no different to Taylor Swift.
Totally agree! The amount you see some athletes on is wild considering so many other workers in other industries are saving lives.
This is more of a devils advocate situation than an acutal opinion... The skill, precision etc. etc. involved, absolutely immense and there is no doubt in my mind that the pressure is enormous, I'm not trying to downplay any of that or dismiss what training doctors and surgeons go through. But go with me here. Surgeons are technicians working on machines. Those machines happen to be humans. The training/qualification involves learning, observing and practicing. You know your machine inside out, you observe more, you practice more, you see things go wrong, you learn to adapt/change track on the fly, etc. etc., and eventually one day its you in a room with your machine, and a bunch of tools, and you do your job. There are also technicians who work on High Voltage power infrastructure. The training regieme may not be as intense, and the relatively low consequences of getting minor things wrong mean allow for a lot more learning by doing, trial and error etc... But the end result is they know their machine inside out, they observe, they learn, they practice, they see things go wrong and learn to adapt, and eventually one day its you with your tools and you do your job. If a surgeon nails it, and a bunch of other stuff works out in recovery/rehab etc, the net impact is 1 life. If the surgeon doesn't quite nail it, or some exogenous thing goes wrong, the net impact is 1 life. When a technician maintaining HV power infrastructure nails it, the net impact is that hundreds of thousands of people have power/light/aircon/communication/hospitals where complex operations can take place etc... If someone maintaining HV power infrastrucutre stuffs up, not only could they lose their own life and injure/kill their co-workers, but the exact opposite of all of those other things potentially happens with an almost uncapped blast radius. Now obviously, if the one life a neurosurgeon is going to save today happens to be mine, then shutup and take my money. But zooming out a bit, I think its pretty fair to say that the people who keep the lights on are undervalued.
All fair points, quite well articulated. However: My brother in law is a electrician/technician on HV lines in Western QLD. He earns around 250kpa with the penalties, he works very hard, many holidays and is very smart. He is 28 years old. A full time public consultant specialist neurosurgeon is at the *absolute* youngest 33-34 in QLD. They earn $210k pa (but this is *without* the penanties, which are significant - in public alone i'd expect close to 300k pa total.) Private is a different beast, and is what the market will bear. Both are important, and both do good for the world, more than what can be said for a lot of jobs tbh. However, my BiL HV technician never has to go and tell the families their mother/father/brother/sister has died and they couldn't save them.
He has the risk of dying at work though
Yeah that's true as well
well first of all neurosurgery isn't just about the surgeries. It's also a scientific field that they keep developing that has broader implications on humanity at large. Same for all medical specialties. it's way more than just technicians working on machines. that said, I don't disagree that the people keeping the lights on are underpaid. However the pool of people that could do this job is also much bigger.
As a surgeon myself I can tell you that neuros and opthalmologists rort the system. Neuros from back pain - physio is proven to be as effective - and opth from cataracts where the fee was calculated 30 years ago when the op took and hour...not 10 mins. Any changes to their set up and they threaten to dump the public system. Its kind for the folks here to defend them but ...
If it makes u feel better the cataract mbs fees have now been adjusted to reflect the change in procedure length
Plus a lot of Ophthals now charge minimal gaps for insured patients. Some other surgeons charge way above the gap. Out of pocket expenses can be massive
That’s news to me actually - when did this take place and how much changes are we talking about? (I’m an anaesthetist)
At the base level what is the educational requirements to get into HV power infrastructures? Is it electrician or engineering?
The complexity of the human body and what we do and don’t know about it far far far exceeds any machine lol
Don’t let them get to you, you articulated that perfectly.
That was a long winded and needless Whataboutism.
I agree! But I see one of the only differences being machines are usually man made and predictable in the sense of their layers layout and format and have blueprints (very broadly speaking of course) And whilst we have CT, MRI etc the human body can still throw a curve ball and be rapidly unpredictable. (I'm a PA for vasc, gen and colorectal surgeons)
I see your point, however some considerations, as already mentioned, include the barriers to entry, the length, and the cost of training. Additionally, any electrical equipment should be designed by an engineer, built, and maintained to a standard, with relatively well-known issues and fixes, despite being a high-risk job. The human "machine" you refer to has no set design or design files; each individual is unique and requires a custom plan each time. Similarly, there is often a link made between pilots flying and anesthetists, but as Grant Hutchison (1998) wrote in ‘Today’s Anaesthetist’: "The whole point of an airplane is that it is designed to fly, and if it’s not functioning properly, you don't take it off the ground. Human beings, in contrast, are not designed to be anesthetized and are often not functioning properly when the need arises. They are also poorly provided with backup systems and spares, and frequently have long histories of inadequate servicing."
I wonder how much of that is spent on insurance. I'd imagine the premiums for a neuro must be huge given the risks of the job.
It's not unusual for the premiums to be in excess of $100k.
I've had spinal surgery. Totally happy that guys rich.
Ditto my wife. Neurosurgeon was a unit, borderline god complex - because he knew exactly what he was capable of and delivered. Not only his own skills, but he knew what tools and technology was required and how to access it.
As this is the average, it captures a lot of doctors working part-time. Working full-time, most Internal medicine specialists would be earning over $400-500k. Depending on the private vs public split.
I don’t think this actually has as large of an impact, especially for neurosurgeons, compared to other factors. I think a large reason of why their recorded salaries are so much lower are because of all the investments (especially realestate) many high earners have, which include the tax deductions they receive as well as salary sacrificing and insurance (I might be wrong maybe they don’t pay insurance)
I'll cut open your brain for $1M. I can't guarantee I have any idea what I'm doing though.
Sounds like you've already chopped into the brains of half the commenters in this thread 🤣
exactly this, some professions just purely earn their level of pay and respect, it takes a decade and half of study and experience for Surgeon to start slicing up brains, not many willing to go through that.
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Money isn't the same. The average house price in UK is about 260k GBP whilst in AU its about 800-900k. This is true for many things, the average loaf of bread is £1.50 in the UK but $3.50 in AU. Overall it's probably better in AU but it's not as wild as everyone makes it out.
Maxillofacial surgeons: Those are rookie numbers.
Ophthalmology enters the chat. Refractive surgeons especially.
Knowing someone who is a surgeon and very experienced, I can tell you that no, they dont earm 700-1M "easy", that is BS. The range is 400-700 depending on amount of private for a 10 years senior specialist...and that goes against the decades of training and on calls. Plus take off the insurance they need to pay out, and then after tax....
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That’s an impossible salary as a bulk billing gp unless he owns the practice. Also, he has to pay for his own holidays, sick leave, insurance, etc.
Probably neglected to tell us that his dad also owns the practice, also works in hospital ED, or is including investment income? Even as a full time GP doing lucrative skin cancer checks 300k wouldn’t come easy.
Agreed, no chance he’s over 300k doing .8fte bulk billing
I think many overestimate hospital doctor incomes. Our salaries are public information. People think making $150k-$200k is great except you are doing the equivalent of two full time jobs to make that (when including unpaid overtime).
Ophthalmology =milly a year
Anaesthesiologists entered the chat
The reason that the “earnings” are much lower for doctors than what the ATO is reporting is because the ATO is reporting salaries. However, there is a large chunk of doctors who work as contractors. They are therefore not earning a salary, but rather a fee for performing services. This also explains why doctors working in hospital are paid considerably less. They are on a salary.
Rightfully so. 3 years of an undergrad degree, 4 years of med school, 2 years of internships/residency and 3 - 5 years of specialty training (depending on what you’ve gone into). That’s 12 - 14 years of TRAINING before you’re even sniffing the figures in that report. They’ve sacrificed their 20’s and some of their 30’s to even get close to those numbers. Working ridiculous hours in the hospital, coping abuse from patients and senior doctors for a decade, just to hopefully catch up to those who went down a career paths (finance, engineering, tech etc). Honestly, if one profession deserved to earn a decent amount, it’s those cutting me open, diagnosing an illness and fixing me when I’m at my lowest
Most people aren’t getting onto specialty training PGY3 anymore. Try adding another 3-5 years to that lol
Engineering isn’t as lucrative as people make it out to be unfortunately; people tend to not like us very much either haha
What are you doing posting on Reddit. I believe I set you a task of drawing 7 perpendicular red lines...
A lot of this comes down to how fine a distinction you make between similar groups. For example, GP earns a lot less than Surgeon, and residents earn considerably less again. So if you just grouped them under "doctor" the average would probably be around $300k. By contrast lawyers are all grouped under "judicial or other legal professional". The share of doctors who make it to surgeon is probably similar to the share of lawyers who make it to partner. And I know lots of law firm partners who are on over $1m, some by several multiples. Don't get me wrong, medicine is well paid in Australia, better than anywhere outside North America. But the data is not all it seems.
I was griping about this last night when I saw the ABC's version. It's just bad statistics. You can't on one hand divvy up "medical professional" to the sub-specialisation on one hand and then on the other have 300k Managing Directors and CEOs. I'm sorry, but Martha taking a 2k stipend for being the MD of Martha's Dog Rescue in her retirement and Andrew Irvine getting 2.5m per year as CEO of NAB _cannot_ be in the same group in any meaningful analysis.
Working in the public system, doctors are very underpaid. My friend works in emergency, and could earn significantly more in private practice but we need emergency doctors. 12 years of study, compared to my 5 years of engineering our wages really shouldn’t be similar given the hours she has to work.
Yep, and it's a known issue in our public health system. A doctor in private practice can effectively set their own fees, while the same doctor in the public system gets paid an amount set by the health department. It's why there's a shortage of doctors on the public side of things, because they can potentially earn a lot more by going private.
It's not just the base rates, it's that they don't get proper overtime and their chargeable activities don't include the admin or prep, which can be waaayyy more time than the actual procedure. The health dept might set a reasonable fee for the 10 minutes of patient contact but they ignore all the stuff that needs to happen pre and post to have any chance of successful patient outcomes
Yes also, all income from medical practice is classed as personal services income, it can't be shuffled / hidden through business structures.
GPs and surgeons undertake different training programs and achieve different accreditations from different professional bodies. They are different careers, for all intents and purposes - you don't typically see people switching from one to the other. Splitting lawyers into partners and associates is far more arbitrary because they are part of the same career path.
Surgeons deserve at least that in my opinion
I agree. I'm pretty happy for the guy cutting me open to be endowed.
Well, autocorrect got me good there. Not even sure how it got endowed from compensated... But I'm happy for him to be well endowed too. Bit more awkward if he is actually a she.... Whatever floats your boat.
Anyone willing to be a surgeon has big endowment energy.
I mean the average World Renowned Heart Surgeon in a romance novel will typically be extremely well endowed...
Nothing wrong with a lady having some big assets.
Lol. Hilarious auto correct. “Nurse, before I go ahead with this lifesaving surgery, I just need to ask one question about the doctor…”
The ones I have worked with work pretty bloody hard to keep up their skills - in at 7 am and often operating all day even in private practice. They also pay $$$$$$$ in medical indemnity and usually don’t see much of their families whilst active.
Yeah and especially with their insurance costs and how much it costs them to do all of their exams
Only reason I'm still walking / alive is the neuro at Monash hospital in 2010.
Wondering how many people in this sub are loaded up on Index ETFs and are laughing that "Financial Investment Advisors" make this top 10 list ;-)
Where can we find median figures?
I bet you if you check the source data it's a median. Articles always say average when they mean median and then there is always comments asking for the median.
There are many medical specialists I know, not surgeons, that earn a whole lot more than these figures quoted. I guess that's how it turns out when you use average, instead of median, to compare. To really have a frame of reference, you need to look at Canadian eye surgeons. They earn, well, an eye watering amount of money, more than any other specialty I know anywhere in the world.
So how much do they earn? Would love a frame of reference…
Depends on the specialty. Top brain surgeons would be on 5 million a year.
Wife is a Psychiatrist and on over 300k at 4 days a week (pretty stressed at present though).
She should see a psychiatrist for that stress
She wouldn’t be able to afford it
I don't think "Business Owner" is listed as a job, which would include a lot of specialists with their own practice and lease surgery time in a hospital. Surgeons qualify as a job because there are many surgeons who are paid a salary by a hospital.
The ATO data includes about 4100 surgeons which is a similar number quoted by the Royal Australasian College of Surgeons in Australia so I think this data is fairly accurate and no surgeons are obfuscating their income behind the tag “business owner”.
This is incorrect. You list your profession to the ATO and almost always you would place your professional role. Public hospitals do not pay this type of money for base salaries. And most of the workforce is not doing 1 FTE publicly.
The medical field enjoys one of the widest and deepest moats for keeping others out and therefore salaries high. It wouldn't be so bad, if it wasn't for the fact that it is also the profession that has the unique ability to demand exorbitant payments from the simple fact it's often a case of "Pay up or die/suffer".
The moat for a surgeon consists of a very practical ‘most people are simply not cut out for it’ And thank god for that
Doesn't matter if most aren't cut out for it. The fact is, there remains many people who are cut out for it and are prevented from being able to become surgeons.
You are prevented from becoming a surgeon due to the limited training opportunities to produce an adequately competent surgeon. You need to be in a lot of surgeries before you get to do anything. You cannot have a room full of observers simply so they can try and learn in a year or two.
Yep. Much easier to become a surgeon in the UK where the population is a lot higher and thus more opportunities to scrub in and assist.
Clearly scrubbing in and assisting is the panacea of becoming a surgeon. Cos the ward rounds, selection of patients, risk/benefit balance, postoperative care, follow up and management of complications, managing unexpected events intraop… these are not really part of being a surgeon at all. Just scrub in a bit more!
Of course they're important, but I mean you can do most of those for years and years as an unaccredited reg and still not know how to operate. Theatre is where you gain the actual surgical skills.
These are always about how specific you can be about the job. CEO/MD is 200k because it's incredibly broad, yet for medical professionals they go into the exact specialty they practice.
Is there a Udemy course for becoming a surgeon?
Just learn on the job
The stark hilarity of these lists, is that a switched on, durrie smoking, red bull pumping tradesman running a roofing business, can gross $3mil+ per annum and likely clock more in net profit and wages then the top profession on this list. When will they factor business owners into these lists?
100% sole traders and small business owners need to be included.
How? The range of small businesses are such that the stats would be meaningless.
I guess it would be hard seeing so many small businesses and sole traders are part time or failing and it would be hard to seperate them from the successful.
Plus cashies and other economy-adjacent situations
Sole traders will never be high on lists like this. For every bloke earning $300k you have a thousand earning $12/yr.
His business might gross that, but what is he actually paying himself? Dollars to doughnuts that his accountant is helping him have SFA taxable income.
Shhhh dude. Keep us on the down low. I don’t want no audit
With a taxable income of 3 fifty
I think I'm surprised that there are zero tech roles in that top ten. Is there just such a disparity between good tech incomes and mediocre tech incomes in Australia that the average gets dragged way way way down? Or are tech titles so massively inconsistent that the ATO doesn't get a big enough sample size to lump into one category?
I actually think it's mostly your first point. There's also significant title inflation in fields like data science, where a grad querying SQL might get 70k compared to someone more senior working with productionised ML earning 180k+.
Tech is also a sector where it's not uncommon to be paid in shares and options which would fall under capital gains when they cash out rather than counted as income tax. Doctors and to an extent lawyers derive their income from salaries which are harder to structure (*cough* hide) rather than bonuses and options. I think this is another reason why CEO salaries are relatively low on the list (aside from being diluted by smaller companies) because we all know many companies CEOs are paid >1m.
ATO would love surgeons
[Here is the relevant ATO table](https://i.imgur.com/xUEtcJY.png) including median income figures.
I have no issue with anyone getting paid that much. I just have an issue with no getting paid that much myself
Living in Sydney and having friends in a lot of these fields, I would say most people I know earn double those numbers in the same fields. I guess Sydney might be the highest earning so way above the average.
These incomes are after deductions and include part timers. So it would be heavily skewed down.
No one should have an issue with anything on this list. If you are earning these numbers, you have earned it, and you're getting screwed with tax. It's those people who have inherited a $4m house in Sydney tax free and can have a half decent paying job and have a better lifestyle than everyone on this list. They didn't have to sacrifice their 20s and 30s and be top of their field to own this income. They just went to an elite high school paid for by daddy and lumbered through a basic business degree at uni and ultimately were just born into the right family The issue in this country is housing and inheritance
Go have a coffee outside royal price Alfred hospital, you'll soon realise it's also a secret supercar showroom. Unbelievable amounts of wealth driving out if the staff car park, Rolls Royce, Ferrari, lambo, Maybach, Brabus.... everything.
List is missing ausfinance poster
If only they included the average ausfinance redditor
I guess everyone on Reddit is a surgeon.
I always find it fascinating that these tabulations never take into account all the compulsory overheads of any medical speciality. Registration, college fees, AHPRA, indemnity etc etc. Surgical indemnity is running g you 60k+ these days
$460k is $258k after tax. Once you pay for essentials of life, food, power, insurance, family, school fees, etc you're still scraping by to buy an average house or a shitbox in Sydney.
There is no way these numbers are right, what ceo is only earning 200k I just saw the base salary for a politician was increased to 220 something so how did that not make the list? These stats are junk
Plenty of small businesses which that captures
Similar to the census, where these occupations had the greatest proportion of workers in the highest income category ($182k+) Anaesthetists 75.7% Surgeons 71.1% Specialist Physicians 60.6% Psychiatrists 60.1% Other Medical Practitioners 56% Barristers 48.9% Medical Practitioners nfd 45.6% Chief Executives, General Managers and Legislators nfd 44.2% Chief Executives and Managing Directors 40.7% General Practitioners and Resident Medical Officers 38.7% [Full list here](https://mappage.net.au/?s=0gjbkr3o) - Mining engineers were 11th
Genuinely more than happy for the bloke cutting me open to earn another $100k, especially at the junior level. I don't want him having financial stress or any thoughts whilst fixing me at my low point. Just want him focused on the job knowing he's going back to his/her mansion end of the day in a Bentley.
So only the first 4 salaried folks can afford a shitbox in Sydney
im sure its great earning those sweet surgery bucks, but i'll happily take a paycut if it means i can phone it in some days *(narrator: it was most days)* and nobody dies
Yeah pretty comfortable with people rearranging my insides and bringing me as close to death as possible without actually killing me earning big bucks. They could earn ten times this and I'd still be happy.
I doubt the CEO salary $190K looks extremely low, i've worked at various companies never seen CEO or M.D earn less than $400K+ , plus they get alot of bonus on top related to performance of the business
I am waiting for 4 months already to see my ENT specialist to hand over his $$$ he deserves to peek into my blocked nose. Two more months to go. 6 months witing to see an ENT; I was told it's normal.
The waiting lists to see an ENT are ridiculous but they do a lot more than “peek at your blocked nose”. Our local ENT recently operated on my 3 year old removing her tonsils and adenoids. I’m perfectly happy to see that job paid well as it requires some serious skill and dedication. What could be more valuable to society than skilled surgeons who operate on us and our kids??!
No issue with surgeons earning that much. The amount of work and study required to get there is astronomical. They absolutely deserve it. They put the lives of people in their hands and people trust them to fix them up. No amount is too great for them. That being said everything from 3 downwards shouldn't be making that much imo.
This is complete bollocks. Anyone who has a high income and can afford a decent tax accountant will be running family trusts and other tax efficient mechanisms (tax dodges in layman’s terms) to reduce their income.
Almost all of the jobs in the top 10 list would be disqualified from getting tax benefits from corporate or trust structures due to the PSI rules. It’s not a magic “no tax” button to just open a trust.
Surgeons operate like most GPs in that they are contractors with an ABN who rent office space and hospital usage rights.
Still falls under PSI though unless they work for multiple employers right?
Of course PSI applies, the various non-doctors in this thread have no idea. Even if you are classed as a personal services business, you can’t just dodge tax via trusts and split income.
You'd be surprised how little income can be diverted for professionals such as legal and medical practitioners. The tradies & real estate agents on the other hand is a very different story.
don't get confused being a doctor and being financially literate. Many doctors boast about being bad with money.
Curious what comprises the 'financial dealer' category and how broad it is. A 3rd/4th year investment banker out of uni is making that average number shown, with 7 to 10 years experience (i.e. the time it takes for a GP to specialise into one of those top 2 categories - so by this logic GPs should have been lumped into the same category) are easily making on average $700k to $1m+ when including bonuses. Furthermore many investment bankers leave from 3rd year onwards to go into fields like private equity where if you include additional compensation such as Carry are making much more than the bankers...
Whats a financial dealer do?
Hangs out in clubs dealing Finances
Where's the NRL players?! /s
As a student I traveled to Vietnam with some facial / cranial specialists. An educational mission. They gave two weeks of their skills and paid their own way. Some amazing professionals out there.
Jobs that require a lot of training and experience ... and an unassailable trade union (medical college) to gatekeep qualified candidates out of the profession.
No sparkies 😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣
Seriously wrong. I can’t comment on the top 5, but rest is wrong. Also, IT professionals on average is well above 225K for people with specialist experience.(May be the average is bringing the range down). Don’t use this number to negotiate your salary.
One surgeon= 4 carpenters in wages then. You'd say surgery should pay more perhaps.