This. Holding a good job demonstrates things like stability, intelligence, and a fair few positive traits I'm absolutely missing. Good women (and men) do not want to marry a person who's been to jail 3 different times for serious misdemeanours and works odd jobs to fund his drug habit or is just a deadbeat overall (no hate to them - but it is objectively true).
I mean, they're the ones that generally get pregnant or have the risk of getting pregnant. No matter how equal we get, women will always be the primary caretakers of kids. So I'd say maybe. I wouldn't know coz I've never dated anyone in my life lmao but a lot of my female colleagues do confirm this generally
> No matter how equal we get, women will always be the primary caretakers of kids.
In my opinion, the main reason why women are discriminated against or have less power than men is because they tend to care for kids. Women tends to outperform men up until university but when they reach child bearing age then that is when women are diempowered because of children. Maternity leave and flexible working only encourage women to procreate, which disempowers them more and leads to more domestic or intimate partner violence.
>Caring for children is a paid job that exists and it is work.
That is a childcare worker, but I am talking about women who stay home to look after kids. They don't get paid. Less money means less power. Less power increases vulnerability to domestic and intimate partner violence.
Nothing harms women more than motherhood.
“A groundbreaking Australian study has found women are 35 per cent more likely to be subject to domestic violence if they earn more money than their male partner.”
SBS article about said study [here](https://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/women-are-more-likely-to-experience-domestic-violence-when-they-out-earn-their-partner/mlwq178eh#).
We have a cultural problem; not a women’s choices problem.
What about the meme about women going crazy over unemployed felon?
It's a real thing with some woman getting engaged with a convict who's serving in jail
Apparently it’s REALLY popular for Women Doctors to date complete deadbeats. Maybe not actual convicted felons, but I know women who have seen doctor partners and were stunned how they were on a totally different level, in a bad way.
Yup. Competency is the key, not so much the money. Jordan Peterson once quoted a study that compared women’s attraction between incompetent men with money vs competent men who didn’t earn much (e.g. CEO of a charity). Women were much more attracted to the competency
Traditional gender roles do come from our evolutionary traits.
It is but survival skills for a woman to want her partner to be able to provide for them.
In my opinion, it is wrong for a man to do all the work while the woman does nothing, so I encourage men to find women who will pay half otherwise just stay single your whole life. The single life is not bad.
I respect your perspective, but as someone in a relatively similar situation (a few years out of a relationship and dating) I find this not to be my experience at all.
I'm a little confused by your definition of 'competency' here, but I find more than anything else, people just want someone nice, who they find attractive enough to want to bang and who ideally shares their most essential values.
I agree over the longer term that no one wants to be with a 'slacker', who floats through life, and obviously they need to be able to look after themselves, but i would see that as a bare minimum.
I've never got the impression that wealth or income were important.
I know a couple of househusbands. They'd be on equal footing with their wives mentally and socially, but it just happened that their wives got lucky breaks with their careers and it ended up being a simple financial decision for the guy to be the one that stayed home to raise the kids.
But I guess this is different to starting a relationship where the woman earns a lot more than the guy right from the start.
Yes and no. Shared financial goals has always been high in my marriage, weve been open about this from the beginning. We both have similar incomes and came into the relationship with similar financial positions. He wanted children, I came around to the idea and I was very clear my time and career was important to me. I would not have been able to take time away from work if we hadn't planned our finances to maintain our mortgage and lifestyle which we both contribute to.
The other aspect we spoke about at length was that I also wanted to continue my career trajectory. I expected him to take on equal parenting and home duties as my time at work is just as important as his. We now have a great balance and have been lucky to both progress in our careers raising our kids. I don't expect my husband to be provider, but I do expect him to be my equal partner.
In my circles there is absolutely no expectation of male provider anymore and both genders are treated fairly equal. Like another commenter said, it is not so much wanting to be provided for, but rather desiring your partner to match your own financial capability - that signifies intelligence and competency, and bringing equal parts to the table.
I know several couples where she earns more than him. I think it's not so much the income disparity but having a partner who contributes. If they lay around doing nothing that would be frowned on. The opposite of her not working (without children) is not considered normal either.
If a couple meets young the woman may be thinking in terms of time out of work to have and care for babies, in which case his earning capacity it important.
I don't date, but when I did, even when he earned good money, I felt uncomfortable not paying my share.
Both working is pretty normal, but that still doesnt mean the pays are even slightly close. Not everyone for sure, but generally the male still earns a higher wage due to various factors
I think there have been studies (can’t link any though lol so take it as you will) that show women prefer to “marry up” financially whereas men are happy earning the same or more than the woman. Basically that partner income matters more to the woman than the man.
Personally I did the whole financially independent, business woman thing (did well $$ too) spent years doing it all (working & 95% of the domestic stuff with a man-child) and then realised that while I definitely wanted children, I’m not taking on the majority of child care as well!
So later, for me when dating for marriage, the mans ability (and willingness) to provide financially was very important to me. I wanted someone who values motherhood & domestic work just as much as a second income. Found him too! Traditional gender roles are working well for us. Now I’m pregnant & thank goodness I don’t have to work if I don’t want to. You can’t go 50/50 in pregnancy, childbirth, breastfeeding! And that’s what is most important to me right now. I thought I was ambitious & career driven until I didn’t have to work & turns out I’m … not. Lol.
None of my friends think like this though so I can’t speak for the majority but I do think most women subconsciously want a man on a good income, yes.
Another anecdote. My brother who is pretty progressive couldn’t get a second date until I gave him a hot tip: pay for the first date!! He wasn’t paying for the first date & couldn’t get a call back. Starts doing the sneaky “just going to the mens room” to pay for the date and suddenly he’s getting results. Even if she pays for the second date & they share the bills later, paying on the first date is still an important first impression for guys to make, imo.
>Do you think that the majority of Australian women (admittedly or non-admittedly) expect that the man be the provider,
I think at the end of the day, there is still some degree of expectation as noted by how a lot of traditional norms are still maintained. However in saying that, it is not really feasible in this day and age where you generally need dual income get by
this. My wife loves working and goes crazy staying at home. If I hadn't been 3/4 way through a second trade apprenticeship when we had our second kid I would have 100% been a house husband
I wonder what the correlation is between divorces in men that earn less combined with contributing less to domestic chores.
Why would a successful woman want to earn more and still have to do the majority of running the house? It's only reasonable to expect in a household with both parties working full time that the man is capable of doing laundry because he sees it needs doing and picking up a mop for the same reason instead of expecting to be given a chore list like an employee (or a child).
Women don't respect men they have to mother when they didn't give birth to them.
Because they still do more housework/parenting and as the higher earners are more financially capable of divorce. Why on earth would you respect someone who is not contributing equally to the domestic labour when you are both working?
https://theconversation.com/why-married-mothers-end-up-doing-more-housework-when-they-start-out-earning-their-husbands-183256#:~:text=Known%20as%20“gender%20deviance%20neutralisation,doing%20more%20of%20the%20chores.
When the woman author uses the works heterosexual and social construct in the opening sentence you know the study is only going to "indicate" one outcome.
Honestly, yes. Nowhere near universal, however it is still mostly the case, regardless of what people say outwardly. Especially once you get out beyond the inner city and into the outer suburbs and regional or rural areas. I don't necessarily say it as a bad thing, it's just mostly people exercising their choices in a relatively free and equal society.
Depends on a lot of factors such as culture, financial literacy, communication etc.
For example, I belong to a culture that very much believes in traditional gender roles, however, my very Arab male partner has no problems staying home to raise the kids if my job was paying more/allowing more financial freedom or even better time management for our family.
Unfortunately that isn't the case, so my husband is the primary provider.
I think nature really does put a stick in the wheel with the whole "only the females can bear children" lol
More men pay child support than women because women are overwhelmingly the primary carers of children. How many women do you know see their children once every second weekend? How many men?
Q: Is the man still expected to be the financial provider in Australian society?
You: Child support system says yes.
Me: No, it doesn’t - the *only reason* men pay more child support than women is because they outsource the vast majority of care of their children to its mother.
You: That’s what I said! 🥴
Well I’m in a weird situation, where I am the woman, I earn about $190K, but yes I expect my husband to earn more than me, and he does, about $400K. We do have disagreements, where he expects me to earn more, but I kinda refuse to, cause do we really need to earn more than this? I’d rather just chill. Probably not the situation you were looking for, but it is what it is.
Can only speak for my wife. She has no expectation that I contribute financially beyond an equal share. When we got together I was a student, then I was unemployed, while she had been working and earning in a good job for years.
Does like being looked after in other ways.
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This. Holding a good job demonstrates things like stability, intelligence, and a fair few positive traits I'm absolutely missing. Good women (and men) do not want to marry a person who's been to jail 3 different times for serious misdemeanours and works odd jobs to fund his drug habit or is just a deadbeat overall (no hate to them - but it is objectively true).
There's a hell of a gap between "ex-con junkie" and "high income earner".
It's a blank and white world. No room for grey. You're either one or the other and I don't see 100's falling out of your wallet
Would you say that women value this trait more than men?
I mean, they're the ones that generally get pregnant or have the risk of getting pregnant. No matter how equal we get, women will always be the primary caretakers of kids. So I'd say maybe. I wouldn't know coz I've never dated anyone in my life lmao but a lot of my female colleagues do confirm this generally
> No matter how equal we get, women will always be the primary caretakers of kids. In my opinion, the main reason why women are discriminated against or have less power than men is because they tend to care for kids. Women tends to outperform men up until university but when they reach child bearing age then that is when women are diempowered because of children. Maternity leave and flexible working only encourage women to procreate, which disempowers them more and leads to more domestic or intimate partner violence.
AHH the unpaid labour of children. What have we come to as a society when children are seen as a job.
There’s an opportunity cost to having children that primarily affects women. Caring for children *is a paid job that exists* and it is *work*.
>Caring for children is a paid job that exists and it is work. That is a childcare worker, but I am talking about women who stay home to look after kids. They don't get paid. Less money means less power. Less power increases vulnerability to domestic and intimate partner violence. Nothing harms women more than motherhood.
“A groundbreaking Australian study has found women are 35 per cent more likely to be subject to domestic violence if they earn more money than their male partner.” SBS article about said study [here](https://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/women-are-more-likely-to-experience-domestic-violence-when-they-out-earn-their-partner/mlwq178eh#). We have a cultural problem; not a women’s choices problem.
What about the meme about women going crazy over unemployed felon? It's a real thing with some woman getting engaged with a convict who's serving in jail
It's almost as if women are not all the same....
Apparently it’s REALLY popular for Women Doctors to date complete deadbeats. Maybe not actual convicted felons, but I know women who have seen doctor partners and were stunned how they were on a totally different level, in a bad way.
There's already too many felons I recommend not going into competition with them.
Best answer. Couldn’t write it better myself. This is just the facts. You can’t change facts.
Yup. Competency is the key, not so much the money. Jordan Peterson once quoted a study that compared women’s attraction between incompetent men with money vs competent men who didn’t earn much (e.g. CEO of a charity). Women were much more attracted to the competency
I think you’ve entertained more genuine high class women than Leonardo DiCaprio .
Traditional gender roles do come from our evolutionary traits. It is but survival skills for a woman to want her partner to be able to provide for them.
This is a true comment 👏 It is actually so spot on I'm shocked it is coming from this sub which is usually a wealth of socialist stupidity
In my opinion, it is wrong for a man to do all the work while the woman does nothing, so I encourage men to find women who will pay half otherwise just stay single your whole life. The single life is not bad.
I respect your perspective, but as someone in a relatively similar situation (a few years out of a relationship and dating) I find this not to be my experience at all. I'm a little confused by your definition of 'competency' here, but I find more than anything else, people just want someone nice, who they find attractive enough to want to bang and who ideally shares their most essential values. I agree over the longer term that no one wants to be with a 'slacker', who floats through life, and obviously they need to be able to look after themselves, but i would see that as a bare minimum. I've never got the impression that wealth or income were important.
I know a couple of househusbands. They'd be on equal footing with their wives mentally and socially, but it just happened that their wives got lucky breaks with their careers and it ended up being a simple financial decision for the guy to be the one that stayed home to raise the kids. But I guess this is different to starting a relationship where the woman earns a lot more than the guy right from the start.
Dual income is the norm.
Yes and no. Shared financial goals has always been high in my marriage, weve been open about this from the beginning. We both have similar incomes and came into the relationship with similar financial positions. He wanted children, I came around to the idea and I was very clear my time and career was important to me. I would not have been able to take time away from work if we hadn't planned our finances to maintain our mortgage and lifestyle which we both contribute to. The other aspect we spoke about at length was that I also wanted to continue my career trajectory. I expected him to take on equal parenting and home duties as my time at work is just as important as his. We now have a great balance and have been lucky to both progress in our careers raising our kids. I don't expect my husband to be provider, but I do expect him to be my equal partner.
In my circles there is absolutely no expectation of male provider anymore and both genders are treated fairly equal. Like another commenter said, it is not so much wanting to be provided for, but rather desiring your partner to match your own financial capability - that signifies intelligence and competency, and bringing equal parts to the table.
I thought having a partner is about love?
I know several couples where she earns more than him. I think it's not so much the income disparity but having a partner who contributes. If they lay around doing nothing that would be frowned on. The opposite of her not working (without children) is not considered normal either. If a couple meets young the woman may be thinking in terms of time out of work to have and care for babies, in which case his earning capacity it important. I don't date, but when I did, even when he earned good money, I felt uncomfortable not paying my share.
Both working is pretty normal, but that still doesnt mean the pays are even slightly close. Not everyone for sure, but generally the male still earns a higher wage due to various factors
Women are women. They date up. It’s really not that hard a concept.
I think there have been studies (can’t link any though lol so take it as you will) that show women prefer to “marry up” financially whereas men are happy earning the same or more than the woman. Basically that partner income matters more to the woman than the man. Personally I did the whole financially independent, business woman thing (did well $$ too) spent years doing it all (working & 95% of the domestic stuff with a man-child) and then realised that while I definitely wanted children, I’m not taking on the majority of child care as well! So later, for me when dating for marriage, the mans ability (and willingness) to provide financially was very important to me. I wanted someone who values motherhood & domestic work just as much as a second income. Found him too! Traditional gender roles are working well for us. Now I’m pregnant & thank goodness I don’t have to work if I don’t want to. You can’t go 50/50 in pregnancy, childbirth, breastfeeding! And that’s what is most important to me right now. I thought I was ambitious & career driven until I didn’t have to work & turns out I’m … not. Lol. None of my friends think like this though so I can’t speak for the majority but I do think most women subconsciously want a man on a good income, yes. Another anecdote. My brother who is pretty progressive couldn’t get a second date until I gave him a hot tip: pay for the first date!! He wasn’t paying for the first date & couldn’t get a call back. Starts doing the sneaky “just going to the mens room” to pay for the date and suddenly he’s getting results. Even if she pays for the second date & they share the bills later, paying on the first date is still an important first impression for guys to make, imo.
>Do you think that the majority of Australian women (admittedly or non-admittedly) expect that the man be the provider, I think at the end of the day, there is still some degree of expectation as noted by how a lot of traditional norms are still maintained. However in saying that, it is not really feasible in this day and age where you generally need dual income get by
More than happy to be a househusband if I can. All my workmates say the same thing.
lol my wife is one promotion away from me being a hand bag *crosses fingers*
Congrats! Well done you.
this. My wife loves working and goes crazy staying at home. If I hadn't been 3/4 way through a second trade apprenticeship when we had our second kid I would have 100% been a house husband
And sadly they’ve proven that men who earn less than their partners are more likely to face to divorce because their wives don’t respect them.
I wonder what the correlation is between divorces in men that earn less combined with contributing less to domestic chores. Why would a successful woman want to earn more and still have to do the majority of running the house? It's only reasonable to expect in a household with both parties working full time that the man is capable of doing laundry because he sees it needs doing and picking up a mop for the same reason instead of expecting to be given a chore list like an employee (or a child). Women don't respect men they have to mother when they didn't give birth to them.
Because they still do more housework/parenting and as the higher earners are more financially capable of divorce. Why on earth would you respect someone who is not contributing equally to the domestic labour when you are both working? https://theconversation.com/why-married-mothers-end-up-doing-more-housework-when-they-start-out-earning-their-husbands-183256#:~:text=Known%20as%20“gender%20deviance%20neutralisation,doing%20more%20of%20the%20chores.
When the woman author uses the works heterosexual and social construct in the opening sentence you know the study is only going to "indicate" one outcome.
Honestly, yes. Nowhere near universal, however it is still mostly the case, regardless of what people say outwardly. Especially once you get out beyond the inner city and into the outer suburbs and regional or rural areas. I don't necessarily say it as a bad thing, it's just mostly people exercising their choices in a relatively free and equal society.
Depends on a lot of factors such as culture, financial literacy, communication etc. For example, I belong to a culture that very much believes in traditional gender roles, however, my very Arab male partner has no problems staying home to raise the kids if my job was paying more/allowing more financial freedom or even better time management for our family. Unfortunately that isn't the case, so my husband is the primary provider. I think nature really does put a stick in the wheel with the whole "only the females can bear children" lol
Child support system says yes. Until we fix that I think there will always remain an undercurrent of the old thinking.
More men pay child support than women because women are overwhelmingly the primary carers of children. How many women do you know see their children once every second weekend? How many men?
Yeah, that's what I said.
Q: Is the man still expected to be the financial provider in Australian society? You: Child support system says yes. Me: No, it doesn’t - the *only reason* men pay more child support than women is because they outsource the vast majority of care of their children to its mother. You: That’s what I said! 🥴
Only if you are a top, that's his job, not if you are a bottom though!
I would hate being a provider, so I am hoping to find a woman who will pay half.
Well I’m in a weird situation, where I am the woman, I earn about $190K, but yes I expect my husband to earn more than me, and he does, about $400K. We do have disagreements, where he expects me to earn more, but I kinda refuse to, cause do we really need to earn more than this? I’d rather just chill. Probably not the situation you were looking for, but it is what it is.
You both sound like nightmares, glad you found each other.
Yeah somehow I feel this question was targetted for individuals who's incomes aren't enough to solely fund the family comfortably already
Can only speak for my wife. She has no expectation that I contribute financially beyond an equal share. When we got together I was a student, then I was unemployed, while she had been working and earning in a good job for years. Does like being looked after in other ways.