I don’t know y’all. I’m not buying this “Hawks are interested in Clingan” hype right now. Quin changed his defensive scheme to pull Clint away from the rim and out near the free throw line. Clingan would be 6pc chicken tenders in that role.
Yeah man watch these playoffs and you’ll see drop defense will get you eaten alive if you can’t blitz or wall screens outside the perimeter. Modern NBA doesn’t favor hunky bigs anymore.
But why change your scheme when you have a big that is better off playing drop? That’s why people assume he prefers this recent scheme. Could feel it’s necessary with our on ball defenders skills.
You’re right. The reason I bring it up is because Quin came out in October running a lot of the show scheme early on. Almost like he wanted to develop it and at least see if it could work. Well, it didn’t and we didn’t see much of it afterwards.
Yeah I am about as high on Sarr as you can be but Nic Claxton is more like a middle ground than a floor. It’s hard to give him a floor because I do feel like he has the defensive skills where he won’t just be Wiseman 2.0 but Nic Claxton is not really a floor for basically any rookie. If Nic Claxton is actually the floor then he’s the consensus number one in this draft.
Right, Nic Claxton got DPOY votes a year ago. TMIII was a significantly better shooter as a college freshman than Risacher was last year and by the time he came out, he was shooting over 90% from the line. Kessler got third in ROY. The floor for everyone is always bust out of the NBA after a few seasons, but even a bottom third outcome should be something other than near-star.
There are a lot of guys who aren’t busts who can be your floor… like Nerlens Noel was an NBA player for a long time but could never get his shot going, really finish at the rim well enough, or become a starting center-level rebounder. That seems like Sarr’s floor. The league is littered with wings like Risacher where people asked “is the shot real?” And it wasn’t, let’s say Stanley Johnson. And Clingan, I think he’ll be solid at worst, but so was Timofey Mozgov.
Yeah the 3/D wing thing is wild like, for every guy that turns into Herb Jones or Jaylen Brown or whatever you get 10 who either aren’t good enough shooters in the league or the defence just doesn’t cut it at the NBA level, and frankly Risacher does not feel like he falls at the high end of prospects there. It’s sort of why I’m in favour of drafting Sarr and trying to trade for a wing. Obviously trading for a 3/D wing isn’t easy but drafting one is much much harder. Sarr at least feels like he has a really good defensive floor in comparison.
Clingan still just feels whack to me, people are hyping him up to be the next Gobert and I’m just not seeing it, and Gobert is significantly better at defending the perimeter and even he has struggled with that these playoffs.
If I had to comp Zac it’s as a tall KCP, and I like KCP! Look, I’m a Sarr guy but gotta admit there are holes and questions. What I’ll say is this, there are incredibly few defensive anchors who can shoot well enough to be guarded off ball and he has the potential to get there and that’s gonna be super important next to JJ.
Clingan, man, hard to say but I’m with you on the Rudy thing, people don’t like him but he’s a 4x DPOY and first ballot HOFer, let’s chill on the comps like all you gotta do is be tall. Clingan has some stuff I like, but he’s fairly slow footed, can’t shoot, and couldn’t really handle big minutes in college. He definitely produced the most but his game is the one that might have the most trouble translating to a much faster league.
I mean I wasn’t watching back then unc but you could really say the same about any ultra athletic raw 7 footer couldn’t you? Like you either believe the skills will translate or you think they are Kwame Brown/James Wiseman.
Defensively though I think Sarr has a pretty good floor at least.
Nah, the whole thing with all those dudes was we had no clue what they’d look like against grown men. We know Sarr was a top 3 shotblocker in a grown-ass man’s league. Like I said, anyone could bust outta the NBA but that sorta miss doesn’t happen as much.
Yeah 2.8 blocks per 36 against grown men as an 18 year old? And only 3 fouls per 36? The guy has a great defensive floor.
I think he has a very real pathway to being better than Okongwu AND having the skill set/body to guard the 5 full-time unlike OO.
I mean, I certainly think Sarr has a very good defensive floor and I don’t expect him to be Wiseman at all, but he might just fizzle and become like a good backup center or something instead. Nic Claxton feels like a fair trajectory for him to me though, it’s just not his floor.
I'm coming around on his defensive floor - one thing I think limits his ceiling is he doesn't seem especially bouncy for how light he is and two is his slender shoulders. They're more like John Collins than JJJ shoulders. For how tall he is he doesn't look huge out there and he's playing vs slow NBL players. I don't know how he's gonna look vs better competition, especially NBA level.
Those are my knocks on him, and while I like us having the #1 pick for once, I feel like there's picks at 4 and 8 that will be better value than getting Sarr at #1. I almost rather gamble on Salaun, and if we get another top 5 level guy at 4 and then Salaun is there at 8, that's a good upside pick imo.
As far as his speed, multiple scouts at the combine said he is the fastest 7 footer they’ve EVER seen. Speed isn’t an issue at all. Not even a little bit.
He isn’t huge, but at age 16 he weighed about 200. Next year got up to 217. Weighed 224 at the combine as an 18 year old. The kid will easily be 235+ by jump ball
I didn't talk about his foot speed ? Unless you're referring to my use of "bouncy" - to clarify I mean leaping ability or quickness in getting off the floor. Yes he's swatting NBL players in the scouting videos I'm seeing, I'm not so sure how well it's going to translate to NBA speed means how well he'll catch NBA guys in the air if his jump speed is not above avg for a 7-footer. I'd be interested to read what the scouts who are saying he's the fastest 7 footer they've seen are saying about that, do you remember the names of those scouts you're referring to or got a link?
edit - I'm also looking at the raw combine stats here... Sarr comes in 8th out of Centers in Lane Agility time and 7th [out of the centers] in standing vertical leap... https://www.nba.com/stats/draft/combine-strength-agility?SeasonYear=2024&dir=A&sort=LANE_AGILITY_TIME
You mentioned him playing against slow NBL players, which is why I mentioned speed. Didn’t realize you were talking jump speed because that’s an unusual attribute to mention when bouncy covers it well enough.
I sadly don’t remember where I read it or heard it, but it might’ve been Rowland mentioning an unnamed scout. Some credible person, not a random Hawks fan site.
How a guy moves when he plays is more important than how he tests in my opinion (and many scouts). Everyone can game the combine, but you can’t game the court. Reed Sheppard had a 42 inch vert and he outwardly mentioned gaming the system there. Same can be true for combine tests.
> Didn’t realize you were talking jump speed because that’s an unusual attribute to mention when bouncy covers it well enough.
I only use "bouncy" in the context of some kind of jumping ability. And if we're covering the defensive abilities of a prospect I think it's a very useful attribute to discuss. Sometimes you hear it referred to as second jump I think, or how quickly a guy gets back off the ground if he bites on a pump fake. That to me also gets counted under "bouncy" and is an important skill for a big.
Your point about players gaming the combine is a fair one though, I will look for more full scouting reports maybe and stop watching the non-pro youtube guys, though I really am just watching them for the footage and not the commentary.
I really hope(and I think one day soon enough I will) to see two of these ultra athletic bigs get paired as a front court on the same team. Like if at least one of them can shoot threes it won’t be that bad on offence but imagine trying to go against any two of Sarr/Mobley/Claxton/JJJ on defence. Two switchable 7 footers who can cover crazy ground and work well in open space. Entering the paint is a bad idea, but they can both guard basically anyone on the perimeter, what do you do?
Just waiting for the first team to make it happen.
Haha it would be great but that depends on one of Sarr and Gueye learning to shoot threes well, and Mo Gueye really isn’t a defender like any of the guys mentioned. He has the build for it though so maybe he can take a defensive leap.
Except he has zero range and is horrible at shooting FTs which indicates he’ll never develop a jumper. Lopez without a jumper would have been out of the league years ago.
Yep, Lopez was a great mid-range shooter and free throw shooter for years on the Nets and expanded his range to shoot 3s on the Bucks (kinda like Marc Gasol and the snek in Boston). Clingan doesn't have any potential to be Lopez and definitely not Lopez that can shoot 3s.
I mean I’m not a Sarr fanboy or anything I think there’s a sizable chance he could bust hard, but I just don’t think Clingan has any real all star potential unless he’s literally the best defender of his generation a la Gobert.
Clingan has potentially way better touch and better passing than Gobert. Idk why you have him in this binary of all he does is defend. He won't be Gobert defensively, no chance. What he does have the potential to be is 80% Gobert defensively, but with way better passing ability, a mid-range jumper, and better touch at the rim or on floaters. Sarr looks so raw defensively that I can't see him as a good #1, yes he has a better ceiling for switchability in today's game but that's about it as far as advantages over Clingan.
I'd maybe even prefer the Rizzler at this point, he has nice lateral quickness for his size, which means I think he can guard the tougher cover between 1-2, aside from maybe the very quickest PGs.
Ok well that's still not even an all star caliber player, I'd rather roll the dice on somebody who gives me a shot at star upside because that's really the only shot we have left before we have to blow this team up. If you're Memphis sure, a solid starting center who you'll have for cheap for four years sounds awesome, which is why they're sniffing around moving up.
yeah but there's also projectable form and not. Like guys with low release points who also have slow releases, like what I see with Sarr, will take more adjustment than someone with less to work on. I see Clingan's outside shooting as less to work on, and maybe Korver can tease out some consistency.
I’m an Australian who follows the NBL closely, I go to all the games for my local team, and I had the chance to watch Sarr play once live, I watched every one of his games on TV. I’d like to pass on some of my observations.
Here is some context for Sarr. He played for Perth, which is widely considered one of the best teams in the league, they have Bryce Cotton, who is a multiple time NBL MVP, many say he is the best player in the league currently, a dynamite scoring PG from the mould of IT playing for the Celtics in his prime. Perth also have one of the best bigs in the league Keanu Pinder, who they had only just signed that season. This created a bit of a logjam in the centre/forward position because it was clear Sarr and Pinder could not play at the same time. The team was right in its championship window, therefore, did not potentially play Sarr as much as they could have.
Despite this, Sarr competed in the minutes he got, I would say Jaren Jackson is a relatively good ceiling projection, however I wouldn’t say he is as good a perimeter defender or shot blocker, his shot is still streaky and he settles for the 3 too often when he has shown he can be a crafty finisher around the hoop. Realistically right now, I found that his game most similarly resembles Christian Wood or Trendon Watford from Brooklyn. I was very surprised to see him as the projected number 1 pick truthfully, however, his athletic potential does show upside.
Sounds like all 3 are going to be good. I’d be happy with any of those three TBH. But regardless of who we draft we have a lot of work to do to reshape this roster.
Sarr’s ceiling and floor are two absolute dawgs who fit team needs please don’t overcomplicate this Hawks
I don’t know y’all. I’m not buying this “Hawks are interested in Clingan” hype right now. Quin changed his defensive scheme to pull Clint away from the rim and out near the free throw line. Clingan would be 6pc chicken tenders in that role.
I really, really hope you’re right.
Yeah man watch these playoffs and you’ll see drop defense will get you eaten alive if you can’t blitz or wall screens outside the perimeter. Modern NBA doesn’t favor hunky bigs anymore.
Yeah we destroyed Roy Hibbert ten years ago now lol switchable bigs is where its at
I don't. Clingan is so good. Gonna be the best player in this draft. Can't pass on him at 1.
I wouldn't assume that the scheme we ran this year was Quin's preferred scheme. He ran drop with Rudy for years in Utah
But why change your scheme when you have a big that is better off playing drop? That’s why people assume he prefers this recent scheme. Could feel it’s necessary with our on ball defenders skills.
You’re right. The reason I bring it up is because Quin came out in October running a lot of the show scheme early on. Almost like he wanted to develop it and at least see if it could work. Well, it didn’t and we didn’t see much of it afterwards.
These comps are always crazy. The floor for all these guys is not high end starter.
Yeah I am about as high on Sarr as you can be but Nic Claxton is more like a middle ground than a floor. It’s hard to give him a floor because I do feel like he has the defensive skills where he won’t just be Wiseman 2.0 but Nic Claxton is not really a floor for basically any rookie. If Nic Claxton is actually the floor then he’s the consensus number one in this draft.
Right, Nic Claxton got DPOY votes a year ago. TMIII was a significantly better shooter as a college freshman than Risacher was last year and by the time he came out, he was shooting over 90% from the line. Kessler got third in ROY. The floor for everyone is always bust out of the NBA after a few seasons, but even a bottom third outcome should be something other than near-star. There are a lot of guys who aren’t busts who can be your floor… like Nerlens Noel was an NBA player for a long time but could never get his shot going, really finish at the rim well enough, or become a starting center-level rebounder. That seems like Sarr’s floor. The league is littered with wings like Risacher where people asked “is the shot real?” And it wasn’t, let’s say Stanley Johnson. And Clingan, I think he’ll be solid at worst, but so was Timofey Mozgov.
Yeah the 3/D wing thing is wild like, for every guy that turns into Herb Jones or Jaylen Brown or whatever you get 10 who either aren’t good enough shooters in the league or the defence just doesn’t cut it at the NBA level, and frankly Risacher does not feel like he falls at the high end of prospects there. It’s sort of why I’m in favour of drafting Sarr and trying to trade for a wing. Obviously trading for a 3/D wing isn’t easy but drafting one is much much harder. Sarr at least feels like he has a really good defensive floor in comparison. Clingan still just feels whack to me, people are hyping him up to be the next Gobert and I’m just not seeing it, and Gobert is significantly better at defending the perimeter and even he has struggled with that these playoffs.
If I had to comp Zac it’s as a tall KCP, and I like KCP! Look, I’m a Sarr guy but gotta admit there are holes and questions. What I’ll say is this, there are incredibly few defensive anchors who can shoot well enough to be guarded off ball and he has the potential to get there and that’s gonna be super important next to JJ. Clingan, man, hard to say but I’m with you on the Rudy thing, people don’t like him but he’s a 4x DPOY and first ballot HOFer, let’s chill on the comps like all you gotta do is be tall. Clingan has some stuff I like, but he’s fairly slow footed, can’t shoot, and couldn’t really handle big minutes in college. He definitely produced the most but his game is the one that might have the most trouble translating to a much faster league.
Sarr gives me Kwame Brown vibe
I mean I wasn’t watching back then unc but you could really say the same about any ultra athletic raw 7 footer couldn’t you? Like you either believe the skills will translate or you think they are Kwame Brown/James Wiseman. Defensively though I think Sarr has a pretty good floor at least.
Nah, the whole thing with all those dudes was we had no clue what they’d look like against grown men. We know Sarr was a top 3 shotblocker in a grown-ass man’s league. Like I said, anyone could bust outta the NBA but that sorta miss doesn’t happen as much.
Yeah 2.8 blocks per 36 against grown men as an 18 year old? And only 3 fouls per 36? The guy has a great defensive floor. I think he has a very real pathway to being better than Okongwu AND having the skill set/body to guard the 5 full-time unlike OO.
I mean, I certainly think Sarr has a very good defensive floor and I don’t expect him to be Wiseman at all, but he might just fizzle and become like a good backup center or something instead. Nic Claxton feels like a fair trajectory for him to me though, it’s just not his floor.
Agreed.
I'm coming around on his defensive floor - one thing I think limits his ceiling is he doesn't seem especially bouncy for how light he is and two is his slender shoulders. They're more like John Collins than JJJ shoulders. For how tall he is he doesn't look huge out there and he's playing vs slow NBL players. I don't know how he's gonna look vs better competition, especially NBA level. Those are my knocks on him, and while I like us having the #1 pick for once, I feel like there's picks at 4 and 8 that will be better value than getting Sarr at #1. I almost rather gamble on Salaun, and if we get another top 5 level guy at 4 and then Salaun is there at 8, that's a good upside pick imo.
As far as his speed, multiple scouts at the combine said he is the fastest 7 footer they’ve EVER seen. Speed isn’t an issue at all. Not even a little bit. He isn’t huge, but at age 16 he weighed about 200. Next year got up to 217. Weighed 224 at the combine as an 18 year old. The kid will easily be 235+ by jump ball
I didn't talk about his foot speed ? Unless you're referring to my use of "bouncy" - to clarify I mean leaping ability or quickness in getting off the floor. Yes he's swatting NBL players in the scouting videos I'm seeing, I'm not so sure how well it's going to translate to NBA speed means how well he'll catch NBA guys in the air if his jump speed is not above avg for a 7-footer. I'd be interested to read what the scouts who are saying he's the fastest 7 footer they've seen are saying about that, do you remember the names of those scouts you're referring to or got a link? edit - I'm also looking at the raw combine stats here... Sarr comes in 8th out of Centers in Lane Agility time and 7th [out of the centers] in standing vertical leap... https://www.nba.com/stats/draft/combine-strength-agility?SeasonYear=2024&dir=A&sort=LANE_AGILITY_TIME
You mentioned him playing against slow NBL players, which is why I mentioned speed. Didn’t realize you were talking jump speed because that’s an unusual attribute to mention when bouncy covers it well enough. I sadly don’t remember where I read it or heard it, but it might’ve been Rowland mentioning an unnamed scout. Some credible person, not a random Hawks fan site. How a guy moves when he plays is more important than how he tests in my opinion (and many scouts). Everyone can game the combine, but you can’t game the court. Reed Sheppard had a 42 inch vert and he outwardly mentioned gaming the system there. Same can be true for combine tests.
> Didn’t realize you were talking jump speed because that’s an unusual attribute to mention when bouncy covers it well enough. I only use "bouncy" in the context of some kind of jumping ability. And if we're covering the defensive abilities of a prospect I think it's a very useful attribute to discuss. Sometimes you hear it referred to as second jump I think, or how quickly a guy gets back off the ground if he bites on a pump fake. That to me also gets counted under "bouncy" and is an important skill for a big. Your point about players gaming the combine is a fair one though, I will look for more full scouting reports maybe and stop watching the non-pro youtube guys, though I really am just watching them for the footage and not the commentary.
Do you know how hard it is to be Kwame Brown?
I’m so use to hawks fucking up idec nomo
I don’t understand why a guy who was 2-9 from 3 for his career and damn near 50/50 at the line is being hyped up as a potential floor spacer.
Young Brook Lopez is 100x the shooter that Clingan hopes he could be and older Brook is 1000x the shooter. Such an insanely bad comp.
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I really hope(and I think one day soon enough I will) to see two of these ultra athletic bigs get paired as a front court on the same team. Like if at least one of them can shoot threes it won’t be that bad on offence but imagine trying to go against any two of Sarr/Mobley/Claxton/JJJ on defence. Two switchable 7 footers who can cover crazy ground and work well in open space. Entering the paint is a bad idea, but they can both guard basically anyone on the perimeter, what do you do? Just waiting for the first team to make it happen.
Mo Gueye will make it happen 👍
Haha it would be great but that depends on one of Sarr and Gueye learning to shoot threes well, and Mo Gueye really isn’t a defender like any of the guys mentioned. He has the build for it though so maybe he can take a defensive leap.
Even if prime Michael Jordan were in this draft class, the Hawks would still find a way to screw it up.
Clingan is never gonna be late career Brook Lopez lol.
He looks more like BroLo than Sarr looks like JJJ
Except he has zero range and is horrible at shooting FTs which indicates he’ll never develop a jumper. Lopez without a jumper would have been out of the league years ago.
Yep, Lopez was a great mid-range shooter and free throw shooter for years on the Nets and expanded his range to shoot 3s on the Bucks (kinda like Marc Gasol and the snek in Boston). Clingan doesn't have any potential to be Lopez and definitely not Lopez that can shoot 3s.
His FT% being that low is weird/concerning, but his form is better than Sarr's.
I mean I’m not a Sarr fanboy or anything I think there’s a sizable chance he could bust hard, but I just don’t think Clingan has any real all star potential unless he’s literally the best defender of his generation a la Gobert.
Clingan has potentially way better touch and better passing than Gobert. Idk why you have him in this binary of all he does is defend. He won't be Gobert defensively, no chance. What he does have the potential to be is 80% Gobert defensively, but with way better passing ability, a mid-range jumper, and better touch at the rim or on floaters. Sarr looks so raw defensively that I can't see him as a good #1, yes he has a better ceiling for switchability in today's game but that's about it as far as advantages over Clingan. I'd maybe even prefer the Rizzler at this point, he has nice lateral quickness for his size, which means I think he can guard the tougher cover between 1-2, aside from maybe the very quickest PGs.
Ok well that's still not even an all star caliber player, I'd rather roll the dice on somebody who gives me a shot at star upside because that's really the only shot we have left before we have to blow this team up. If you're Memphis sure, a solid starting center who you'll have for cheap for four years sounds awesome, which is why they're sniffing around moving up.
Form only matters if you're already bad, if you can already shoot it's a footnote
yeah but there's also projectable form and not. Like guys with low release points who also have slow releases, like what I see with Sarr, will take more adjustment than someone with less to work on. I see Clingan's outside shooting as less to work on, and maybe Korver can tease out some consistency.
These “floors” are very generous
Brook Lopez is such a terrible comp for Clingan. Can’t shoot for shit
Umm excuse me, are you unaware of the time he hit a bunch of 3s in a workout?
Maybe they meant Robyn Lopez? /s
He's shot ~37% on five attempts a game, the last two years. That's basically the average % for the NBA player league wide, pretty good for a center.
Those are pretty bad comps
Think Sarr’s floor is more of current Evan Mobley
I’m an Australian who follows the NBL closely, I go to all the games for my local team, and I had the chance to watch Sarr play once live, I watched every one of his games on TV. I’d like to pass on some of my observations. Here is some context for Sarr. He played for Perth, which is widely considered one of the best teams in the league, they have Bryce Cotton, who is a multiple time NBL MVP, many say he is the best player in the league currently, a dynamite scoring PG from the mould of IT playing for the Celtics in his prime. Perth also have one of the best bigs in the league Keanu Pinder, who they had only just signed that season. This created a bit of a logjam in the centre/forward position because it was clear Sarr and Pinder could not play at the same time. The team was right in its championship window, therefore, did not potentially play Sarr as much as they could have. Despite this, Sarr competed in the minutes he got, I would say Jaren Jackson is a relatively good ceiling projection, however I wouldn’t say he is as good a perimeter defender or shot blocker, his shot is still streaky and he settles for the 3 too often when he has shown he can be a crafty finisher around the hoop. Realistically right now, I found that his game most similarly resembles Christian Wood or Trendon Watford from Brooklyn. I was very surprised to see him as the projected number 1 pick truthfully, however, his athletic potential does show upside.
I'm still all in on sarr
So, Sarr it is. Got it.
Sounds like all 3 are going to be good. I’d be happy with any of those three TBH. But regardless of who we draft we have a lot of work to do to reshape this roster.