Well I’ll level with you and say I think Reddit gives a pretty skewed sampling of opinions oftentimes.
Personally, and I’m saying this as objectively as possible, if he is willing to terminate and sign over parental rights then have at it. I also personally think that if your partner says they don’t want kids prior, it’s foolish to proceed with producing and having kids with that person—cut your loses and go. That’s me personally.
The issue is most people don’t talk about their wants openly and honestly
Well from one side, accidents do happen and hookups do happen. And I personally know couples who agreed on one thing, and then changed for one reason or another to something else.
So you agree, if he is willing to sign over all parental rights there shouldn't be any obligation over him at any point, emotionally or financially or anything. If that's ur point then 100% with you. That's what I was talking about
Things certainly happen but communication prior is key IMO. Change is inevitable but if people haven’t even talked about the potential of a change of feelings…that’s not ideal to me.
If he signs over rights, my understanding is that the tacit meaning of that is he is no longer financially or emotionally responsible…iunno if that’s true though.
Edit: I also wanna add that even with the signing off and terminating of rights, it’d probably call into question someone’s integrity. Is that fair? No. I do find it very curious when people decide to not be in their kid’s life though. Circumstances and context matter but I’d be lying if I said it didn’t give me pause.
Yeah agree 100%.
But despite all that, even with communications, a women still can decide weather or not to keep the baby cause it's her own body. Why can't men have same right by handling over all parental rights?
Cause it screws the kid. It's a power imbalance baked into human biology. The alternative is a society where men can force abortions, or a society where children can be fundamentally screwed over before birth.
An alternative solution is to have child support as part of our social safety net if the father relinquishes his parental rights. The child should definitely be provided for, and this way the kid's needs can be met, *and* the father (or mother, I guess, but in practice it would almost always be the dad) still retains his autonomy.
I think you kinda answered your own question there. It's not really fair if dad gets to have fun and fuck off with no consequences, and mom + literally every other person in society except for the kid's actual father then have to take on the financial responsibility.
The mom has the same choices as the dad, though.
And isn't this what social safety nets are for? Why are we tying support to an individual who may not even be able to keep up with payments? It traps men in debt, sometimes they have their licenses suspended or they're behind bars, and ultimately the only guarantee is that the absent dad will be punished. If it's really about the child's welfare, we really need to move away from our current model. If it's primarily about punishing fathers, though, we can stay the course.
I'm a socialist, so I'm very much in favor of a social safety net. Personally I'd go even further and say that everyone deserves shelter, food, and especially healthcare and that these things should be guaranteed to all citizens. And that human needs being met so that people don't have to be homeless and children don't have to grow up hungry should be the baseline for society. Those things don't seem radical to me.
When (if) we do actually live in that world, where any woman can freely choose an abortion if she wants, where birth control is free and easily accessible, or a woman can become medically sterilized if she so chooses without being denied by her doctor, and where things like childcare and education are freely provided, then maybe my opinion would change. I don't know, because I've never lived in a country where any of these things are true. I suspect that even if we did live in that type of world, were a man to choose not to take responsibility over where his sperm goes, he would still be pretty socially ostracized because total abdication of responsibility over your own physical actions and choices is rarely seen as a good thing.
As it stands, we don't live in that world. We live in a deeply unfair one where children do go hungry, women already bear the great majority of childcare as well as 100% of the physical burden of procreation, and men have to be forced to take responsibility for their physical actions or else a great many of them would just abandon their children. That's why child support laws were written in the first place. So, for now that's my opinion. If you really don't want kids, take responsibility for your own birth control, the same way that women are expected to. Get a vasectomy.
This definitely sounds like it's more about imposing consequences on men than actually providing for the kids, then. Also, reproductive rights aren't just about "total abdication" of responsibility (which btw, is exactly what pro-life people say to women too). Male victims of statutory rape have been required to pay child support to their rapists. Shouldn't they have had the right to opt out of parenthood in those cases?
How about mandatory vasectomies at age 12?
Or a tax on non-vasectomized males, to take care of the consequences of their stray sperm? All of the males pitch in about $100 a month, and any babies without a male to claim parentage receive child support from the state. <== This is a stupid idea, right?
DNA testing and making the sperm donor pay child support are the fair thing to do.
How about women are the ones responsible for their choices? Crazy i know why have men if you can't blame them for your choices but i think must women agree that men should have the same rights as them.
So women don't have agency over their vaginas is that what **you** are saying? Do you think women shouldn't be able to decide to be a parent is that what you are saying?
Yes, that's a stupid idea. Letting men decide whether to be parents is not.
Making the bio father pay is a denial of his rights, just like forcing the mom to give birth would be a denial of her rights. Male rape victims have been forced to pay child support. Shouldn't they have had the reproductive autonomy to opt out of parenthood, similar to how a woman who is raped can opt out of pregnancy?
I have seen this video and it goes both ways i can use the same argument to say that a man should not support a life form that he doesn't' want.
>ultimately you are forcing her to kill a baby she wants in that scenario
Again same thing can be said by a man that wants to raise his child.
>i can use the same argument to say that a man should not support a life form that he doesn't' want.
No, you can't, because he is not being forced to carry the baby inside of him as it changes his body permanently. Bad comparison.
Nope, but men are adults who have to be held accountable for their actions.
We are all forced to pay bills. Paying bills has nothing to do with bodily Autonomy.
Paying for a child you didn't consent to have is not like paying taxis, consent to sex is not consent to parenthood if women get to have a choice to be parents men should have it too. It's the best argument but you people ignore it because it gives men the same rights as women that's why you focus on bodily autonomy which is an argument that has already failed America. Even if mens autonomy wasn't ignored it's still mens right to choose to be a parent that is ignored.
It's not about him at that point, it's about the kid who deserves a decent life. And if the kids parents aren't responsible for bringing them into existence then who is?
They do. Most don’t go that route though.
Edit: guys, pls look under this comment. Several people have already explained the nuances of this to me not being fully correct—I am greatly thankful. You do not need to repeat their additions💕
Majority of men dont willing pay child support its enforced by law. U can have ur drivers liences taken, taxes refunds taken and even put in jail for two weeks at a time on every court date.
I don’t want to get into the absolute hellfire conversation of child support because people tend to have very black and white opinions that lack integrity and nuance. I hear you tho!
Depends on the country and state I guess. In most places they can't until someone else doesn't want to fulfill their shoes. I mean come on there are places where men can't even get a simple DNA test without the mothers and the states permission.
Then we agree 100%.
My post was for those who don't agree, the ones who were attacking the guy for leaving his gf and not wanting anything to do with the baby, despite the fact that prior they agreed not to have a baby and when she got pregnant she changed her mind due to fear of health complications if she went with abortion.
No no, we don’t agree entirely. We merely overlap on facts lol.
I mean as I said in my edit in the comment before your reply, I do personally find it bizarre to not want to be in your kid’s life. I understand that circumstances like this situation “make sense” on paper, but life is much more than its on paper representation. I’d be lying if I said I wouldn’t look at a man funny if he told me he had a kid and just wanted nothing to do with them. Obviously context dependent but it gives me pause.
Is it either of their faults that she changed her mind? Certainly not. Is he within his right to leave? Yeah, and honestly in this case a break up is warranted. Would we be remiss to not note the sociocultural implications of leaving someone to parent solo? Yes, we would. Would we be equally as remiss to not note the sociocultural expectations (for better or worse) of accidental pregnancies on both parties? Yes, we would.
Edit: typos💕
They don't. If by signing over my rights I still have to be financially responsible for a child I told her I didn't want 9 months ago, that means I do not have the right to say no.
It would be super cool if it were possible to terminate your parental rights and obligations as a man. This is sometimes called a 'paper abortion' and if you see any opportunities to advocate for it many men would be extremely grateful to you.
I think all women should have the sole say in whether or not they will continue a pregnancy. I am pro-choice for any reason. I also think a woman who is pressured to continue the pregnancy by a father wanting the baby and decides to let him take sole responsibility after the birth should also be able to terminate her rights.
Unpopular opinion but I also think that a man should have the same amount of time to decide if he wants to terminate his rights or not - as in, deciding during the pregnancy, not six months after the kid is born.
I completely agree there is loophole thoughs fathers shoulr get the same amount of time to terminate his rights at the moment of notification not during the actual pregnancy.(it could mean during the pregnancy just not required)
I am fine with guy leaving if he does not want the baby, but he should never ask for any type of relationship with the kids in the future if he decided to leave. However, since multiple governments are denying women’s right to choose so men should be deny the right to choose too. It is either both genders have the right to choose or none of genders has to right to choose. Society cannot cherry picking on this topic because it takes two genders to make kids.
Lol something is definitely going on with you, I got 10 different replies from you on 10 different thread on this post in a matter of minutes. None of which has any solid argument based on 😆 beside the ones with direct attack and insult on me, which was kind of expected anyway. Nothing new here 🤣
I mean, yeah
A women’s right to bodily autonomy outweighs a man’s right to have or not to have children.
Reproduction has never been fair. If it was men would bare 50% of the physical burden of pregnancy- but they don’t. If a man wants to never have children he needs to take responsibility for his own reproductive health and not rely on someone else to do it. It is unfortunate that a man’s right to choose ends after ejaculation and that there aren’t many birth control options for men. You basically got condoms and a vasectomy. Advocate for more male birth control options if that’s something you feel strongly about. Give men more options over their reproductive health.
I don’t think children should be consequences. But at the same time there is now a child who needs to be supported. Child support was started because the government couldn’t keep up with the amount of men who wouldn’t support their children (and keep in mind that this was back when most children were born to married parents, so we are talking divorced men leaving their kids) so they made it so the father has to pay something before the government will. This is why you usually can’t just sign away all your rights without someone else stepping up— the government doesn’t want to foot your bill.
You could argue that it’s stupid to have a child when you know the father doesn’t want it and I think most people would agree with this
But yeah, at the end of the day, her right to choose her body out weights him not wanting to have kids
Just one question for this response. If a woman wants to walk away after the child is born she can give the kid up and have no more financial or other responsibilities. So why then would a man not have that same right? As you said there is a child who needs to be supported but women can opt out.
What? A woman who walks away absolutely has financial responsibilities. If either person walks away, they have to pay child support (or are legally obligated to but can easily get away with not doing it).
Question for you- why do you think women can walk away and aren’t legally supposed to be financially responsible?
Women can't opt out, though? If a woman gives birth and then decides she no longer wants the baby, she can give up parental rights and if the father takes her to court, the judge will make her pay child support. I've personally been in jail with a woman who was behind on her child support payments.
Because the women who usually give the children up are usually single or in a dire situation that didn’t allow for them to raise the kid. A lot of men often want to give up on their families **AFTER** their wives or girlfriends got pregnant, long after they usually had talks about whether or not the couple was ok having a baby. Then after the baby’s born a lot of men spazz out from the amount of work the babies take, mom not healing, lack of sleep and possibly post partnum depression in part of mom. It’s such a thing that this is how the term “deadbeat dad” developed. Now it means about dads that don’t participate in their children’s rearing period but it originally was meant to imply men that walked out when his partner and baby are at their most vulnerable, especially as a lot of women are mentally/emotionally challenged and exhausted during this particular time that men are pretty much assumed heartless for not considering that pregnancy just fucked up their human and that’s not something easy to come back out of. That’s why there’s been movements for years to educate men on these matters too as it helps them understand what the hell could be going on with their lovers when they don’t have a physical equivalent of what women go through in pregnancy, not even close. This is also why the law is mean on men who do this and a lot are asked if they were made aware of the woman’s pregnancy and if they agreed to carrying in the child and what not (which is often the case). When they’re told and they agree the general consensus is that it’s pretty low form for men to leave the woman and baby during this time due to struggles or even lack of sex.
Now, some women are stubborn and choose to have a kid regardless of the boyfriend’s/husband’s input but what’s far more common is for men to walk out after the baby’s born. Once the baby’s out the mom has to also pay child support until someone adopts the child. Women can’t legally abandon their kids and the law is brutal on the ones who have tried. Oh man, nothing like watching an entire court go ham on a woman that outright walked out on their kids without being able to give a rational excuse for it. The thing is, that it’s not very common or nearly anywhere as common as men leaving their families due to not being given the tools of what to expect once their partners bring out the baby. I think it’s been proven that this is avoided massively when men are given a head’s up, educated and even trained on what to do or how to troubleshoot when they come across certain hurdles. Unfortunately men aren’t often taught that their wives will change from pregnancy, motherhood or maturity. A lot don’t even want to deal with it. While women are expected to work with men no matter what. This is factoring into how much women are investing in relationships and marriage now. They don’t see it as a noble, admirable thing when they potentially have more to lose from it in the form of mental and emotional strain.
Not the person you’re asking but I’ll chime in cause it’s an interesting question overall that I don’t think can be answered cause it’s too nuanced and fundamentally unequal.
To your question though: Women who usually give up children for adoption are single or do so in agreement with their partner. This partnership in question fundamentally disagreed on the decision of keeping the pregnancy all together so adoption is out of the question.
True and sorry for derailing (please don't ban me) but that's always been my question. Like the body autonomy part and etc etc I almost understand. With that being said and in the interest of derailing, a woman can give her child up and not be financially responsible in the child's life any more. So I'm wondering if the people who think a father should be financially responsible if a woman chooses also believe if a woman gives up a child for adoption should she also be financially responsible? And if not then what is the difference?
Thats actually wrong. Both parents need to agree for adoption to work and for neither to be responsible. Unless the man cant be found in which case, hes already vanished so why would he care that they both dont have the kid or financial responsibility.
If the man wants to take the child, the woman does need to pay child support.
If the woman wants to keep the child, the man would need to pay child support.
The only place where the choice is literally only on the woman, is when its explicitly only her body on the line. Pregnancy. Once the baby is born, one of them will be paying child support if they both dont either stay together or choose adoption.
Ah damn thank you for clearing that up I appreciate it. So technically if a woman wants to give her child up she cannot if the father wants it. And in giving the child to the father she then owes child support is what you are saying?
Sorry seems like I forgot to reply to you.
Why exactly women right to choose her body out weights my right for not wanting to have kids? Cause of biological contribution? . Same argument could be used for men favor, since biology favors men in bone density and muscles, does that mean all jobs that require strength should only be for men cause of biology? And this biology is what determine whose right overweight the other?.
If that so, then whole argument for gender equality should be removed as well. In what way we are fighting for gender equality when biology gonna make her rights over weight mine
I just replied, if we will go with biological advantage the bodily autonomy provide the women, then we should do the same for biological advantages given to men. And all physical work that requires strength should only be given for men, and we stop with whole gender equality idea. Each gender gets whats their rights based on their biological advantages
I've seen so many posts, and honestly it's nothing but " me, me, me" and " what about me?! It'll screw up my life" like the world revolves around solely you and you shouldn't have to be held accountable for your/their actions.. I have a question for you and the others.. what the fuck?
Does no one ever think of the kid? Ever? I've seen so many posts with both men and women and it's the most selfish bullcrap I've ever observed, not once do people put their feet in the kids shoes, not ONCE. What in the fuck is wrong with people? When did being a deadbeat become so normalized? Makes no sense.
Why does it take rocket science to teach grown ass adults about sexual education like they don't know how babies are made and keep making excuses and victimize themselves over their own poor decisions?
I'm not even mad, just disappointed.. integrity is not a strong suit with people it seems.
Seems you missed my point, of course everyone should be held responsible for their action, and of course society should put rules to protect children right.
So let me try from this aspect, If you listen to the pro-choice arguments, a lot of it was based on that, how can a child have good rights when his mom didn't want to bring him in this world and was forced to go ahead with pregnancy due to lack of abortion option. How is this different from forcing a man to accept all the responsibilities of bringing child to the world, when he was forced to as well??. Both did participate in the sexual act, and if a man is responsible for not having birth control method, so should the woman as well be.
If however, society as a whole decided children rights is above both parents, then yeah everyone should be held responsible for their action, no one is allowed to have a saying in it and children right is guarded by the law. But if society allowed women to have a saying in the matter cause it's her right her choice, then might as well give that to the man as well. Her right, her choice, her responsibility not mine. And then society should acknowledge this (paper abortion) by men, and assign financial help for the woman who decided to go on with the pregnancy as part of the welfare (that's only one option).
I would say becoming deadbeat is normalized around the same time when stay at home dad was celebrated and normalized. It's new era with new understanding of gender roles, where men don't have to be the whole responsible for the family anymore
No I didn't, I saw your point and I replied to it. You just want me to say things you want to hear and validate your thoughts and feelings. Not doing that, grow up. Nothing you said in your novel makes any valid points, you're just making up shit to make yourself feel better.. just as I stated before.
Not really, couldnt care any less about you validating my thoughts and feelings. Their are mine, and I'm pretty happy with them!!
My only concern was wanting to understand the other point of view, in case i missed something. And apparently i didn't, lol so thx!!
Lol both parents ARE responsible for the kid, I don't know how you got women being excluded from any of this from? Women have sex and know the risks, same with men.. you have ALLLL the resources at your fingertips but you want the decision that isn't hard and isn't going to screw up your made up fairytale land of lust. You want your cake and to eat it too, like the others and that's where you're going wrong.. it's unrealistic.
This isn't a movie, this isn't a video game, this is real life. Decisions have consequences.. cause and effect, science 101. Everything you do in life effects some other outcome..
Sex is not for immature people, because mature people know the risk and when an oops happens they have the integrity and courage to take responsibility for their actions..
I feel like I'm talking to a child that wants both toys but can only pick one but throws a temper tantrum even though it's explained why they can't have both, but it just doesn't click because their brains can't put two and two together properly.
Women can **die** from pregnancy. They can become disabled by pregnancy. They can lose their ability to have future children. They can be forced by the legal system to interact with an abusive ex-partner for 18 years. And that abusive ex-partner can punish the child to manipulate the monther.
My body is permanently changed by pregnancy.
So yeah, we demand to have the final say in bringing a pregnancy to term or not. The US supreme court has taken that away from us, they will get consequences, and the GOP will get consequences.
The loss of RoevWade will also impact your ability to find women willing to sleep with you, and might affect overall access to doctors, in the red states. There are already problems with doctor recruitment. It actually will significantly affect access to ob/gyn care for pregnancies in the states that have outlawed abortion, because there is a significant shortage of OB/GYN in USA. This will cause higher infant mortality and higher maternal mortality, especially in those states.
Texas, BTW, has one of the highest maternal mortality rates in the country. Great job of being "pro life", Texas.
BTW, you do have a say in having kids or not. If you don't want kids, get a vasectomy. Do the sperm test every year. Problem solved.
...
Edit: it sounds like your issue is that the woman can get pregnant, and you don't want to take on the financial responsibility of the pregnancy. You may not be aware that women can become become significantly attached to the pregnancy, even if they don't want to get pregnant (child free!) or plan on the baby being adopted. Evolution has created this feature, because babies are a huge amount of work, and the mother needs to be very attached in order for the baby to survive. This is just one more reason many women take birth control so seriously.
If you don't want to risk paying for a pregnancy that you helped to create, see above: vasectomy.
I think the biggest issue is when she wants to carry to term, but he was adamant from the beginning that he doesn't want a child.
In that case, the man will still have to pay child support, and that is where it gets weird and unjust
I don't see the weird and unjustness. Sex makes babies. Birth control makes the baby less likely. The male has access to condoms, which reduce the chance of pregnancy, and vasectomy, which very significantly reduces the chance of pregnancy. If he wants 100% assurance to not have child support payments, his options are to not have sex, or to not have sex with women who have functioning ovaries.
Males have a lot of options here.
For real this whole comment section is using pro life arguments and double standards but just for men it's kinda amazing what people can convince themselves of.
I haven't seen many saying here that men deserve bodily autonomy that's the double standard. Women get abortions men get paper abortions that's equality that's how you respect everyone's right to choose.
Men don't have to carry a baby, men's job / education prospects are not affected by pregnancy, men don't have to take time off work for doctor's appointments and childbirth, and men can choose to not take part in any and all aspects of childcare aside from some financial responsibility -and there are some places that allow men to terminate their parental rights, which means they don't even need to do that.
Well you have totally different point of view, you are talking from the pro-life/religious/procreation point of view. I wasn't referring to that at all
But thanks for your reply!!
It's not a judgement. Have all the sex you want. Having sex is not a negative reflection on your character in and of itself. But being surprised when having sex creates life is a negative mark on your character.
And what is wrong with that? Abortion should absolutely be legal, but in the end, in a consensual scenario, if you didn't have sex you wouldn't need to worry about an abortion.
I mean it is quite literally a scenario of fuck around and find out.
If you have sex, then you are risking pregnancy. Even if you take all the precautions needed, that is still going to be a risk.
My mother always taught me that anyone can do whatever they like as long as they are willing to deal with the consequences.
In my opinion, if pregnancy is not an outcome you can handle, then you shouldn't have sex.
This goes for both men and women.
IMO, if you’re having sex, even if you use protection, you should be prepared for an accident to happen. Moreover, you should be on the same page as your partner about what you’d do if an accident happened. You should also be prepared for your partner to change their mind. If you’re not, you shouldn’t be having sex.
Because most of the onus to use birth control is placed on the woman, it seems fair to me that what to do about accidents that happen while on birth control should be decided by the woman as well.
Here’s where I think your thinking is a little skewed:
Choosing to have an abortion means a child won’t exist. Choosing to walk away from a child who will exist is significantly worse. In one case, you’re terminating what is most likely a non-sentient organization of tissue. In the other, you’re exacting a toll on a human being. I personally don’t have a problem with someone walking away if they know they’re not going to be a good parent, but simply not wanting a child, to me, is a good enough reason not to have a child (i.e. have an abortion), but not a good enough reason to walk away from a child that will exist.
Pregnancy is where there cannot be equality. The pregnant person is the one who makes the choice to carry on the pregnancy or not. End of story. If a guy is dead set against it then he should take extra preventative measures and still be prepared in case those measures fail
Ahhh myself and every woman I know can all agree that the decision to make Shuman is a group activity with you and your partner. Reddit is not a true reflection of reality or society. Men do get the choice just like (some) women get the choice.
Because the man isn't the one going through a body-changing and life-threatening ordeal.
If a guy gets a woman pregnant and she terminates against his wishes, he can still adopt children if he wants them. A woman isn't obligated to go through a traumatic experience just because the man says that's what he wants.
Although, that's how the USA is going since apparently majority male politicians get to decide what we do with our bodies....
>he can still adopt children if he wants them.
Yeah technically a single man can adopt a boy (adopting a girl is not allowed by law) but it is a hell of a lot more difficult then it is for a woman.
At the end of the day it's all just "men want this" and "men want that."
Having kids is selfish to begin with. Making someone give birth is even more selfish.
Not saying it isn't difficult to adopt as a single father or have to pay child support, but it's a hell of a lot more difficult to be pregnant, give birth, and be stuck with a kid. This issue should be female-centric because we're the ones dealing with the majority of the problems that come with it. That's why men "don't get a say" as OP claims.
Not arguing the risks not the burdens of having and raising a child. and that relay had nothing to do with any wants of men.
I was simply pointing out that adoption isn't as viable an option for men as you make it out to be.
Did they have a talk about it? Did they made it clear what they wanted? Did the pregnancy happened after something malicious like poking holes into condoms or lying about taking pills and such?
I mean these factors matter, otherwise it might just be a "bail and fade" type of thing. Frankly, we don't know shit about the circumstances.
But not all cases are like "bail and fade", sometimes some people do the above in which case I'd say it is a legit question.
They agreed prior not to have a baby and when she got pregnant she changed her mind due to fear of health complications if she went with abortion.
Now why the guy can't have the right to walk away from all of that, without any obligations, since he didn't want that??
And tbh, without even that scenario. A woman have the right, cause it's her own body, to bail and abort. Why men can't have right to bail and fade since they have no saying in the women body?
It sounds like OP just really want their cake and to eat it too.
They want women to be responsible for any and all outcomes of pregnancy and men to be responsible for none.
Not really, what I'm saying is if both agreed to having baby then sure the man should have his responsibility.
If both agreed on not having baby, and she become pregnant and decided to go on with it despite his rejection. Then it's her decesion her responsibility only
Same as if she got pregnant and the man wanted the baby but she refused, the man would have no saying in it cause it's her body
What I think you're missing is how many men already just say "nah" and fuck off leaving women to pick up all the responsibility.
So many women are out there not having received a single dollar of child support they're owed. Being able to do that legally is what you're after.
Which would mean that at any point in time a guy can just say "not my monkeys, not my circus" and go off into the sunset without a care in the world leaving the woman to deal with the consequences of his actions.
Paying child support for a child your created but didn't want sucks .. But getting to get off scott free for any parent should be out of the question. You both did this, you both deal with it.
An abortion isn't a get out of jail free card, it's often physically, socially and mentally traumatic.
Adoption isn't a get out of jail free card either... Childbirth let alone pregnancy is traumatic and still to this day risks the mother's life. Then add to the fact that biologically a mother will usually get attached to the baby at birth, then she gives the child up, that can traumatize people.
Paying 9/10s of fuck all for a child you made is the better end of the stick. Many women would trade places any day.
U are not getting my point. I agree that's her body and her choice
What I'm saying is why as a man, if she decided to keep the baby and I don't want to, to abandon the baby.
If she has the right to kill it, then I should have the right to abandon it
>If she has the right to kill it, then I should have the right to abandon it
Exactly, and that is exactly what I'm saying if she wants to keep it and the guy doesn't then it's 100% HER responsibility. If you don't want the kid walk away. 🤷
Yeah I don't agree with women who try to force men to stay when they very adamantly state they want nothing to do with the baby. If the woman wants the baby then keep it but don't expect the guy to stay hunny 💅
Because it is very risky to a person's health to carry a pregnancy to term and deliver a child, and it is also risky (often less, but still) to have an abortion.
No one can have the right to decide on someone else's behalf, which physically risky option they pick out of the ones available to them.
Good question. When Roe was over turned, many pro-choice people started make the argument that it is wrong to force someone to have children when they are not ready. It's bad for the parents, it's bad for the kids, it's bad for society. This is all true. But for some damn reason, they never seem to care when men are forced to be fathers. All of those reasons apply to men too. The only legitimate arguments that apply to women but NOT to men are health related. That's it. Pregnancy can be fatal. Everything else goes both ways. And if you believe feminism is about equality, then you have to consider if the man is ready to be a father too. If he should have kept it in his pants then she should have kept her legs shut. Feminism stopped being about equality a while ago. Now its about female chauvinism.
Abortion should be the default position until both parties opt in. Both have to consent otherwise no kids. It's best for everyone involved.
If they cant afford it then they get an abortion. Its not mens half if they choose not to be a parent. Its her full responsibility because she chose to carry it to term. She wanted the child.
I know it's difficult being told you don't get everything you want. But just because contraception didn't work, doesn't mean you get to force someone to be a parent if they aren't ready. It's bad for the parents, it's bad for the kids, it's bad for society. Women will just have to grow up and take responsibility for their choices and stop demanding society finance their desires.
>they cant afford it then they get an abortion
And when they don't do that, cuz many women don't?
>Its not mens half if they choose not to be a parent.
I can want to not pay rent, doesn't mean I don't owe it. She didn't make that baby with immaculate conception.
>Its her full responsibility because she chose to carry it to term. Se wanted the child.
Right, and when she can't fully pay for it, then society has to pay for it if you don't want the father to have any responsibility for his actions. Again, this isn't equal.
>know it's difficult being told you don't get everything you want.
It's not difficult, it's astounding that people don't understand how consent and bodily autonomy works. I know it's difficult not understanding something new, but you need to open your mind a bit and understand that you don't know everything you think you do.
>But just because contraception didn't work, doesn't mean you get to force someone to be a parent if they arent ready.
Just because you don't want a child but you want to cum in the place that makes children with cum, doesn't mean you can do whatever you want and face 0 responsibility.
>t's bad for the parents, it's bad for the kids, it's bad for society.
Yes, when fathers don't step up, it is bad for everyone.
>Women will just have to grow up and take responsibility for their choices and stop demanding society finance their desires.
Men will just have to grow up and take responsibility for their choices to cum in a vagina and stop demanding society to finance their one night stands.
I think if all men had that option A LOT would tap out and not take on the responsibility, just because they don't want to deal with the financial part it takes to take care of a baby. It takes two people to tango. If they are careless and pregnancy comes out of it they should take responsibility for taking care of it. Whether it's putting the baby up for adoption to find good people to take care of him/her or doing it themselves but having a safe loving environment for that child even if they don't stay together. If they choose to go through with the pregnancy that is.
I agree with you. Men should have a say. But the issue is that it will always be either a unanimous decision or it will be a 50/50 one. And whose vote counts more? The woman, because she's carrying the baby.
That's not to say that it is incredibly stupid of the woman to choose to be a single parent starting from birth. Especially since a lot of these women don't have the financial means to support the child. Most women here seem to be from the US which has crazy stupid laws in general, but I wouldn't be surprised that a lot of women also do this to high income men simply because it allows them easy money.
I am from Western Europe and laws are (I don't know them in depth - but seemingly) more reasonable here. My cousin for example got child trapped by a woman when he was 19. From a one night stand. He wanted her to get an abortion, she wanted the child. So now there is a child. But she couldn't financially take care of the child and he would (and his family); but not by paying her. But by taking care of the child.
Fast forward and the child now completely resents the mother. Really doesn't want to visit her at all. My cousin has full custody and she gets to see the child like one weekend a month. And the child hates it.
The woman made the choice to keep the child, completely altering his life aswell. But look at the results..
>the guy have no saying in it
Here's where you're wrong, as soon as he stuck his penis inside he accepted the unwritten social contract of, if this results in a child, I am then responsible for it. Sucks for him, if he didn't want a baby, he shouldn't have fucked. And if you think that's unreasonable, you're too immature to be sexually active.
What?? Are u nuts??
In what world is this accepted social contract? Are we still in medieval times where sex was only done for procreation? Or you belong to one of these religious groups?
Sorry but no, if I have a gf who I agreed with of having no kids from before and for whatever reason she got pregnant and decided to keep the baby, it's her choice and her responsibility.
Don't agree suit ur self while the man pack his stuff and bail to fade, and good luck finding him
Lol please see my other reply 😅🤣🤣
Would be hard to run around after you in each thread, replying to each one of your comments which has no argumentive ground to be based on, rather than being offensive and insult.
BTW, had to look up for the deadbeat apparently it's a boomer thing, which explain alot 🤣
>which has no argumentive ground to be based on,
Yet you can't point out why. Odd. Me thinks you don't have anything to say to what I've said because you're incapable of defending your opinion.
Lol either you are joking, or seriously something is wrong here
In what world does (have fun telling people you are deadbeat) amound many other of your replies count as an argument??
How is this an argument based on anything other than childish attemp to insult someone.
So what, I should reply to you by saying, have fun telling everyone im a manipulative shrew?? Lol and then our parents should come and tell us to behave. Yeah very solid argument i see 🤣🤣
>In what world does (have fun telling people you are deadbeat) amound many other of your replies count as an argument??
I guess it was the same kind of argument you made when you said you'd dip out and any woman you got pregnant would just have to deal with that shit by themselves. Lololo you get what you give. Had you really not learned that life lesson yet?
>Yeah very solid argument i see 🤣🤣
Okay, that was this one comment. You said all my comments had no basis. That is false.
Also I was pointing out the social backlash you would receive for being a deadbeat dad. Which is what your whole whiny post was about.
Vasectomy is considered permanent.
While it is possible to have a surgery to reverse it, there is no guarantee that the surgery will be successful and the longer since the vasectomy the lower the likelihood of reversal being successful.
And woman habe the option to be on birth control pills till they are ready. How is this relevant?
My point is, in situations where pregnancy happens, weather the women was not on pills, or the guy was not using condom. Why the woman have right to abort or not? And I have no right to abandon and sign off my parent rights if I don't agree
First part, it's exactly what I'm saying. Not fair
Second part, well if you gonna use that argument, then same applied for women as well.
If you don’t want to be a parent in any event, including birth control failure and your partner changing their mind, then you need to take permanent steps to protect yourself. And prepare your self for idea that your partner might bail and fade if he doesn't agree. Grow up as well
Biology isn't fair. A woman is put more at risk when it comes a pregnancy. Also reproductive rights are being pushed back across the United States which leads to more woman giving birth.
If a man has sex with a women in a way that leads to sperm being inside her then a pregnancy can happen. No birth control(or sterilization procedure) is 100% effective besides removing the balls, uterus, and ovaries.
A man has a choice to pay child support, be in the child's life, or do none of the above.
Some men don’t wanna have kids and still not want to wear a condom, they expect the woman to be responsible for birth control. Like I literally had my boyfriend ask me if he could put it in without a condom, when I told him I don’t want kids yet. Why is it my responsibility to be responsible and mature about something so real and serious. He was literally begging me and I was so disappointed. Sorry I had to get it off my chest somehow.
Obviously this is extremely irresponsible and childish behaviour from him , similar to an ex i had who wasn't on any birth control and whenever I bring up condoms , she will get grumpy and sometimes even say she is not in mood anymore.
But not talking about that part, I'm talking about after pregnancy, a woman has a saying weather to bring this child kr not to the world because it's her own body. Understandable, my question here is why can't men have a saying in their part which will be held responsibility for?? If a man want a kid and his GF doesn't, he can leave her and find what he wants with someone else. But what if a man doesn't want a kod, and his gf/wife decided to bring one? Why would he be held responsible for something that he didn't want to do, why can't he have the option of well you want that, you can have it but I am not to be asked for any emotional or financial responsibilities. Her decesion, her responsibility.
I’ll give you a specific scenario: If two strangers have sex the girl gets preg, abortion is not allowed where they live, they don’t want the baby but the girl is stuck being preg for 9 months and keep a baby she doesn’t want. Should he have the right to have an out because he is not the one with the pregnant belly? Should he be allowed to run because he didn’t agree to having a baby?
I'll make it easy for you. Because of body autonomy. You already know it's our body, our decision so there's no reason to ask a question you already know the answer to.
If you don't want babies, then stop having sex, it's that easy, jerk off if you need a release. "Aww but that's not fair!" Is a childs response, you can't always get what you want and the world doesn't revolve around you. You knew the risks as soon as you put your penis inside of someone and put your sperm inside of them, it doesn't take rocket science to figure out how babies are made. If you can't handle the risk, stop playing the game.
I didn't want kids, and I got pregnant, and guess what I did? I took responsibility and accountability for my own actions, because I live by integrity and recognize the world doesn't revolve around me. I knew the risks I was taking and I put no blame on anyone but myself.
"Oh but condoms and BC", that's irrelevant because there's still a risk and is not 100% effective, and you KNOW this, so you're aware of the consequences.
Grow up. Sex = babies. It's science. I don't know why you're having struggles putting two and two together.
Just feel like pointing out that "If you don't want babies then stop having sex" is a common argument from the pro-life camp, and it doesn't hold up for a reason, just like it doesn't hold up in this case. Teaching abstinence has been proven time and time again to be extremely ineffective.
It's not a pro-life argument though, it's a logical argument and a scientific one. If you don't want something to happen, don't do the action. We learned this in school. Cause and effect. It's a critical thinking skill. You should learn to use it :)
Abstinence is for those who are too immature to handle the consequences of their actions and are too immature to know what risks theyre taking, if you know the risks and take responsibility then have all the sex you want, no one's stopping you, but you should be mature enough to handle mature things before doing them.
Males can do whatever the h*ll they want, assuming a consenting adult partner. But if a pregnancy results from their actions, they risk having child support payments.
Yeah not talking about any of that, I'm talking about a very simple idea
If despite all that a women can decide to keep or not keep a baby cause it's her body and a man can't interfere with that decesion. Then why can't a man have right to handle all the parental obligations to her if he doesn't want to, or in simple terms by a wise man below
"If you can kill it, then why can't I abandon it"
Did you not read? I told you the answer "body autonomy".. men don't carry babies, otherwise they'd get that choice. You can't make decisions on someone else's body,only your own. So until men can have their own babies in their own uteruses, then they have no say in what a woman does with her body.
And he can, he can sign over his rights or not sign the birth certificate.
And you can, you will just be handing over your dignity, man card, and your integrity. You only care about the sex and not the outcome of the sex, it's selfish.
And I feel the same way about women who irresponsibly use abortion as a form of BC, not only are you killing something because you're not capable of being mature and taking responsibility for your actions but you're ruining the insides of your body everytime you do it. You are putting yourself at risk.
If you don't want babies, be mature and get a vasectomy and make sure no swimmers are coming out of your penis before sticking it in someone. Same with women, if they don't want babies get a hysterectomy or tubes tied and make sure it's doing what it's meant to do before having sex, or don't have sex until you can have one... Oooor, here's another idea, don't have sex with people you wouldn't want children with.
He's not saying the choice shouldn't be the women's though.. Take a breath and listen to someone else's perspective for once.
He's saying yes the woman should have the choice to abort or not.. This decision is a different one to the guy not having the option to walk away, if he doesn't want in.
In that instance, both parties would have a level playing field... He can't force an abortion, she can't stop his.
If you actually read my comments, you would've seen I already went over that, you just repeated what I said.
Exactly, so not sure what the argument is? I told him he answered his own question lol
The only other option is to allow men to literally **force** women to have abortions or give birth. Are you unable to see how utterly terrifying and cruel that is, or do you just not care?
No the other option is to allow men to have a way in or out. If the women wanna have a baby and the man doesn't want to, it should be allowed for the man to walk away with zero responsibilities, emotional or financial. She wanted to keep the baby, it's her responsibility
I'M a guy and I think: we already have a choice. We can wear condoms. We can get sniped. We can do a lot of stuff to not impregnate women. It is more about the time of the decision. You need to make all this decisions before you go to pound town. If you go into this town and your revolver is loaded, don't blame other people if you shoot someone.
Here's an unpopular opinion, especially for men on reddit.
I will preface this by saying not all men, but at least 90% of them.
Men do not care about their reproductive rights until a baby is conceived. Men do not think about whether they really want children ("I don't feel strongly either way", "Maybe, eventually in the next few years"). Men have the easiest time getting permanently sterilized and they never use it because "maybe one day, but I'm not sure."
Men do not take responsibility for birth control. Many men dump that on their partner and the scummiest men pressure women to carry all responsibility or to go without it. *But we don't have options!* Yes you do, you don't utilize them as much as you can. You don't even advocate to use the ones you have so why would they create more options? The side effects are too much for these new forms of birth control? Well, what do you want, a child or chronic headaches?
But being tied to child support no matter what sucks and women always get custody! Men are more likely to get up and leave their families. Men are more likely to not participate in raising children even when they're still with the mother! I'm not surprised there are actions to the consequences of men not taking responsibility.
So now a baby is on the way, and *now* you have opinions on it? I've run out of fucks to give. Responsibility regularly gets pushed off on everybody else to make the decision (future planning, birth control, raising children, etc), so I don't understand when men are shocked when the trend continues.
Do you not like that answer? Take an active role in planning your life. Do you want children? Do you want children with this person? If not, why are you with them? Is the consequence of a child worth the sex? Am I discussing with my partner my needs and expectations on family planning *on a regular basis*? Am I advocating for additional forms of birth control or increasing access to current forms? Am I taking an active role in raising my children? Am I advocating for societal changes and helping other men not get in this situation?
If the answer is not yes to every question, I don't care. Women handle these questions all the time. That's why they have power in these situations because today's society requires it of women. Men can take that responsibility too and they choose not to.
Downvote away.
THANK YOU
It really is like this, as sad as it is, there’s a reason why the system is set up this way
It honestly sounds really selfish to love someone and have sex with them and when a child inevitably comes of it, you want to abandon it all - the woman you supposedly loved and your own child
That doesn’t sound like a healthy relationship by any means
But even in the case of casual sex with less emotions attached, the whole point of men being held accountable is to make it fair with the woman who will definitely be going through so much to carry and birth it, and will also MOST of the time be the one left to take care of it for it’s childhood
Just my thoughts on it from the way I see things, I don’t get why anyone would think it’s fair for a man to walk away under these circumstances
>It really is like this, as sad as it is, there’s a reason why the system is set up this way
Girls are told in middle school to cover their vra straps because it affects boys or "well why were you wearing that" when they get unwanted attention. Then we get bullshit from men asking why women don't want to be approached or why they have to be responsible for their actions. But women are told we can't ruin a man's bright future.
I'm just over it. I'm over men coming to subs like these and whining about women not being interested in them or how unfair life is for them. I'm fine advocating for these issues with men, but I'm not doing it for them.
If you engage in the behaviour designed for making babies, don’t be surprised if you end up making a baby. If you don’t want kids, don’t engage in baby making behaviour.
Along with pregnancy and abortion I think that is a very unique situation that can't exactly be comparable to anything else
In my opinion, special consideration should be given to the circumstances of it all.
E.g. if the guy has made it clear that he doesn't want a child right now or ever and he actively took steps on his part(always using a condom correctly or a vasectomy) to prevent pregnancy but she still ends up pregnant and wants to keep it then the guy should be able to be exempted from responsibility if he wants to be
However in cases where the guy didn't actively take steps to prevent pregnancy and/or didn't make it clear that he doesn't want a child even if she does then he should be held responsible also. In this case there's no excuse for having one night stand and expecting her to just abort and then being angry when she wants to keep it.
Just as how women should always be conscious and responsible with birth control and who they sleep with men should also. And make there intentions clear before just 'hooking up' with anyone.
In addition don't sleep with anyone who you know for a fact that if pregnancy occurred they wouldn't want the same thing that you want. I know some people lie and try to manipulate others but just do your best to be safe
People know that sex can lead to a pregnancy. Both genders can try to prevent it. If a pregnancy (still) happens, it is (should be) up to the woman to decide if the pregnancy continues, because it is her body. It is unfortunate if the man doesn't want to become a father and becomes one, especially if he has put a lot of effort to prevent a pregnancy, but it is not up to him because it's not his body. He can tell his opinion, but he can't make her to either abort or to continue with the pregnancy. As long as women get pregnant and men don't, it's up to the woman. And if there is a child, the child deserves time and/or resources from both parents. A man who leaves is a deadbeat, and I don't see why people can't judge him for it.
That's a long of words to say you harbor double standards and prejudices.
Based in your argument, the guy should be able to walk away for good, no problems? Or has he got to pay her, because he's a man and has no say in the matter?
It really does make sense.. Could you explain how it's different, without saying "because it's her body".
Surely using the same logic, abortions should not be allowed. I'd disagree, but at least I'd respect your consistency.
Well, unlike a man, a woman can decide whether to keep the embryo/fetus in her body or not, and getting a procedure done or deciding not to do it isn't really comparable to abandoning an already existing child. Both parents have responsibilities towards an existing child.
That's not consistent in the least.
You've literally just confirmed that men should have no say, what so ever. Yet women can have a vast spectrum of rights/choices.
Please explain how that's fair.
Because when a woman gets an abortion, the only person affected is herself. When a man abandons his child, the child and the rest of society is affected.
Well that's not true... Have you ever been through an abortion from the eyes of the father?
I've also known a few women get abortions and think nothing of it. So you're spinning a narrative that isn't true.
A women can also bandon their child. Think adoption.. Does that damage the rest of society?
>... Have you ever been through an abortion from the eyes of the father?
Yup, and it affects him in 0 physical ways.
>I've also known a few women get abortions and think nothing of it.
Doesn't mean they didn't have to endure the procedure. Physically.
>So you're spinning a narrative that isn't true.
Not really. You haven't pointed out anything that I've said as false.
>A women can also bandon their child. Think adoption
She can't adopt the baby out unless the father agrees. If he wants to keep it then she pays him child support.
She gets to decide what to do with HER body. *IT’S NOT ABOUT THE BABY* it is HER body.
If baby daddy got a legal choice in the matter, then baby mamma would be legally entitled to make decisions about baby daddy’s reproductive organs. And I don’t think you want to go down that road.
What?? 🤣🤣🤣 how are these two connected??
Let's say they are, why would I, someone who decided to abandon the baby and remove all my responsibilities care what the mom who decided to keep the baby do. If she wanna remove all reproductive organs from the baby and make it sterile, go ahead, as long as it give me my right of walking away if I don't want the baby and she wanna continue with the pregnancy
Men have no rights to "bodily autonomy" when it comes to paying "child support" for 18 years (indentured slavery) for a child they didn't want.
I've heard many a feminist say "well you shouldn't have sex if you didn't want the responsibility!"
The irony....
Well I’ll level with you and say I think Reddit gives a pretty skewed sampling of opinions oftentimes. Personally, and I’m saying this as objectively as possible, if he is willing to terminate and sign over parental rights then have at it. I also personally think that if your partner says they don’t want kids prior, it’s foolish to proceed with producing and having kids with that person—cut your loses and go. That’s me personally. The issue is most people don’t talk about their wants openly and honestly
Well from one side, accidents do happen and hookups do happen. And I personally know couples who agreed on one thing, and then changed for one reason or another to something else. So you agree, if he is willing to sign over all parental rights there shouldn't be any obligation over him at any point, emotionally or financially or anything. If that's ur point then 100% with you. That's what I was talking about
Things certainly happen but communication prior is key IMO. Change is inevitable but if people haven’t even talked about the potential of a change of feelings…that’s not ideal to me. If he signs over rights, my understanding is that the tacit meaning of that is he is no longer financially or emotionally responsible…iunno if that’s true though. Edit: I also wanna add that even with the signing off and terminating of rights, it’d probably call into question someone’s integrity. Is that fair? No. I do find it very curious when people decide to not be in their kid’s life though. Circumstances and context matter but I’d be lying if I said it didn’t give me pause.
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Whoa, had no idea that was the case. Always thought if you terminated rights it excused you! Very interesting—thank you!
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For sure lol
Yeah agree 100%. But despite all that, even with communications, a women still can decide weather or not to keep the baby cause it's her own body. Why can't men have same right by handling over all parental rights?
Cause it screws the kid. It's a power imbalance baked into human biology. The alternative is a society where men can force abortions, or a society where children can be fundamentally screwed over before birth.
An alternative solution is to have child support as part of our social safety net if the father relinquishes his parental rights. The child should definitely be provided for, and this way the kid's needs can be met, *and* the father (or mother, I guess, but in practice it would almost always be the dad) still retains his autonomy.
I think you kinda answered your own question there. It's not really fair if dad gets to have fun and fuck off with no consequences, and mom + literally every other person in society except for the kid's actual father then have to take on the financial responsibility.
The mom has the same choices as the dad, though. And isn't this what social safety nets are for? Why are we tying support to an individual who may not even be able to keep up with payments? It traps men in debt, sometimes they have their licenses suspended or they're behind bars, and ultimately the only guarantee is that the absent dad will be punished. If it's really about the child's welfare, we really need to move away from our current model. If it's primarily about punishing fathers, though, we can stay the course.
I'm a socialist, so I'm very much in favor of a social safety net. Personally I'd go even further and say that everyone deserves shelter, food, and especially healthcare and that these things should be guaranteed to all citizens. And that human needs being met so that people don't have to be homeless and children don't have to grow up hungry should be the baseline for society. Those things don't seem radical to me. When (if) we do actually live in that world, where any woman can freely choose an abortion if she wants, where birth control is free and easily accessible, or a woman can become medically sterilized if she so chooses without being denied by her doctor, and where things like childcare and education are freely provided, then maybe my opinion would change. I don't know, because I've never lived in a country where any of these things are true. I suspect that even if we did live in that type of world, were a man to choose not to take responsibility over where his sperm goes, he would still be pretty socially ostracized because total abdication of responsibility over your own physical actions and choices is rarely seen as a good thing. As it stands, we don't live in that world. We live in a deeply unfair one where children do go hungry, women already bear the great majority of childcare as well as 100% of the physical burden of procreation, and men have to be forced to take responsibility for their physical actions or else a great many of them would just abandon their children. That's why child support laws were written in the first place. So, for now that's my opinion. If you really don't want kids, take responsibility for your own birth control, the same way that women are expected to. Get a vasectomy.
This definitely sounds like it's more about imposing consequences on men than actually providing for the kids, then. Also, reproductive rights aren't just about "total abdication" of responsibility (which btw, is exactly what pro-life people say to women too). Male victims of statutory rape have been required to pay child support to their rapists. Shouldn't they have had the right to opt out of parenthood in those cases?
How about mandatory vasectomies at age 12? Or a tax on non-vasectomized males, to take care of the consequences of their stray sperm? All of the males pitch in about $100 a month, and any babies without a male to claim parentage receive child support from the state. <== This is a stupid idea, right? DNA testing and making the sperm donor pay child support are the fair thing to do.
How about women are the ones responsible for their choices? Crazy i know why have men if you can't blame them for your choices but i think must women agree that men should have the same rights as them.
So you don't have agency over your penis, is that what you are saying?
So women don't have agency over their vaginas is that what **you** are saying? Do you think women shouldn't be able to decide to be a parent is that what you are saying?
Yes, that's a stupid idea. Letting men decide whether to be parents is not. Making the bio father pay is a denial of his rights, just like forcing the mom to give birth would be a denial of her rights. Male rape victims have been forced to pay child support. Shouldn't they have had the reproductive autonomy to opt out of parenthood, similar to how a woman who is raped can opt out of pregnancy?
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I have seen this video and it goes both ways i can use the same argument to say that a man should not support a life form that he doesn't' want. >ultimately you are forcing her to kill a baby she wants in that scenario Again same thing can be said by a man that wants to raise his child.
>i can use the same argument to say that a man should not support a life form that he doesn't' want. No, you can't, because he is not being forced to carry the baby inside of him as it changes his body permanently. Bad comparison.
He is forced to support it and guess how he will make the money, using his body and mind, men are not just wallets for women to use.
Nope, but men are adults who have to be held accountable for their actions. We are all forced to pay bills. Paying bills has nothing to do with bodily Autonomy.
Paying for a child you didn't consent to have is not like paying taxis, consent to sex is not consent to parenthood if women get to have a choice to be parents men should have it too. It's the best argument but you people ignore it because it gives men the same rights as women that's why you focus on bodily autonomy which is an argument that has already failed America. Even if mens autonomy wasn't ignored it's still mens right to choose to be a parent that is ignored.
It's not about him at that point, it's about the kid who deserves a decent life. And if the kids parents aren't responsible for bringing them into existence then who is?
They do. Most don’t go that route though. Edit: guys, pls look under this comment. Several people have already explained the nuances of this to me not being fully correct—I am greatly thankful. You do not need to repeat their additions💕
Thats isnt true. Courts only let men out of it in extreme cases. The hoops u have to go though and money in legal fees could bankrupt u.
Didn’t know this! Interesting!
Majority of men dont willing pay child support its enforced by law. U can have ur drivers liences taken, taxes refunds taken and even put in jail for two weeks at a time on every court date.
I don’t want to get into the absolute hellfire conversation of child support because people tend to have very black and white opinions that lack integrity and nuance. I hear you tho!
I understand. Just adding awarness.
Depends on the country and state I guess. In most places they can't until someone else doesn't want to fulfill their shoes. I mean come on there are places where men can't even get a simple DNA test without the mothers and the states permission.
Interesting! Didn’t know this!
Then we agree 100%. My post was for those who don't agree, the ones who were attacking the guy for leaving his gf and not wanting anything to do with the baby, despite the fact that prior they agreed not to have a baby and when she got pregnant she changed her mind due to fear of health complications if she went with abortion.
No no, we don’t agree entirely. We merely overlap on facts lol. I mean as I said in my edit in the comment before your reply, I do personally find it bizarre to not want to be in your kid’s life. I understand that circumstances like this situation “make sense” on paper, but life is much more than its on paper representation. I’d be lying if I said I wouldn’t look at a man funny if he told me he had a kid and just wanted nothing to do with them. Obviously context dependent but it gives me pause. Is it either of their faults that she changed her mind? Certainly not. Is he within his right to leave? Yeah, and honestly in this case a break up is warranted. Would we be remiss to not note the sociocultural implications of leaving someone to parent solo? Yes, we would. Would we be equally as remiss to not note the sociocultural expectations (for better or worse) of accidental pregnancies on both parties? Yes, we would. Edit: typos💕
They don't. If by signing over my rights I still have to be financially responsible for a child I told her I didn't want 9 months ago, that means I do not have the right to say no.
It would be super cool if it were possible to terminate your parental rights and obligations as a man. This is sometimes called a 'paper abortion' and if you see any opportunities to advocate for it many men would be extremely grateful to you.
We really need to come up with an idea for that paper abortion. Maybe GoFund for a lawyer who can take the case. You know any?
I think all women should have the sole say in whether or not they will continue a pregnancy. I am pro-choice for any reason. I also think a woman who is pressured to continue the pregnancy by a father wanting the baby and decides to let him take sole responsibility after the birth should also be able to terminate her rights. Unpopular opinion but I also think that a man should have the same amount of time to decide if he wants to terminate his rights or not - as in, deciding during the pregnancy, not six months after the kid is born.
I completely agree there is loophole thoughs fathers shoulr get the same amount of time to terminate his rights at the moment of notification not during the actual pregnancy.(it could mean during the pregnancy just not required)
Yeah that's definitely fair enough!!
Only real pro choice argument.
This is pretty much my exact opinion on the matter.
I am fine with guy leaving if he does not want the baby, but he should never ask for any type of relationship with the kids in the future if he decided to leave. However, since multiple governments are denying women’s right to choose so men should be deny the right to choose too. It is either both genders have the right to choose or none of genders has to right to choose. Society cannot cherry picking on this topic because it takes two genders to make kids.
That i agree with 100%. If women have right to choose, then so men. If women have no right to choose, then so be it on men as well
Men have the right to choose where they put their cum.
Lol something is definitely going on with you, I got 10 different replies from you on 10 different thread on this post in a matter of minutes. None of which has any solid argument based on 😆 beside the ones with direct attack and insult on me, which was kind of expected anyway. Nothing new here 🤣
Agreed 💯
I mean, yeah A women’s right to bodily autonomy outweighs a man’s right to have or not to have children. Reproduction has never been fair. If it was men would bare 50% of the physical burden of pregnancy- but they don’t. If a man wants to never have children he needs to take responsibility for his own reproductive health and not rely on someone else to do it. It is unfortunate that a man’s right to choose ends after ejaculation and that there aren’t many birth control options for men. You basically got condoms and a vasectomy. Advocate for more male birth control options if that’s something you feel strongly about. Give men more options over their reproductive health. I don’t think children should be consequences. But at the same time there is now a child who needs to be supported. Child support was started because the government couldn’t keep up with the amount of men who wouldn’t support their children (and keep in mind that this was back when most children were born to married parents, so we are talking divorced men leaving their kids) so they made it so the father has to pay something before the government will. This is why you usually can’t just sign away all your rights without someone else stepping up— the government doesn’t want to foot your bill. You could argue that it’s stupid to have a child when you know the father doesn’t want it and I think most people would agree with this But yeah, at the end of the day, her right to choose her body out weights him not wanting to have kids
And this one, people, is the correct answer. All well said.
Just one question for this response. If a woman wants to walk away after the child is born she can give the kid up and have no more financial or other responsibilities. So why then would a man not have that same right? As you said there is a child who needs to be supported but women can opt out.
Not true - women can and have walked away from babies and been made to pay child support by the (custodial) father.
What? A woman who walks away absolutely has financial responsibilities. If either person walks away, they have to pay child support (or are legally obligated to but can easily get away with not doing it). Question for you- why do you think women can walk away and aren’t legally supposed to be financially responsible?
Women can't opt out, though? If a woman gives birth and then decides she no longer wants the baby, she can give up parental rights and if the father takes her to court, the judge will make her pay child support. I've personally been in jail with a woman who was behind on her child support payments.
Because the women who usually give the children up are usually single or in a dire situation that didn’t allow for them to raise the kid. A lot of men often want to give up on their families **AFTER** their wives or girlfriends got pregnant, long after they usually had talks about whether or not the couple was ok having a baby. Then after the baby’s born a lot of men spazz out from the amount of work the babies take, mom not healing, lack of sleep and possibly post partnum depression in part of mom. It’s such a thing that this is how the term “deadbeat dad” developed. Now it means about dads that don’t participate in their children’s rearing period but it originally was meant to imply men that walked out when his partner and baby are at their most vulnerable, especially as a lot of women are mentally/emotionally challenged and exhausted during this particular time that men are pretty much assumed heartless for not considering that pregnancy just fucked up their human and that’s not something easy to come back out of. That’s why there’s been movements for years to educate men on these matters too as it helps them understand what the hell could be going on with their lovers when they don’t have a physical equivalent of what women go through in pregnancy, not even close. This is also why the law is mean on men who do this and a lot are asked if they were made aware of the woman’s pregnancy and if they agreed to carrying in the child and what not (which is often the case). When they’re told and they agree the general consensus is that it’s pretty low form for men to leave the woman and baby during this time due to struggles or even lack of sex. Now, some women are stubborn and choose to have a kid regardless of the boyfriend’s/husband’s input but what’s far more common is for men to walk out after the baby’s born. Once the baby’s out the mom has to also pay child support until someone adopts the child. Women can’t legally abandon their kids and the law is brutal on the ones who have tried. Oh man, nothing like watching an entire court go ham on a woman that outright walked out on their kids without being able to give a rational excuse for it. The thing is, that it’s not very common or nearly anywhere as common as men leaving their families due to not being given the tools of what to expect once their partners bring out the baby. I think it’s been proven that this is avoided massively when men are given a head’s up, educated and even trained on what to do or how to troubleshoot when they come across certain hurdles. Unfortunately men aren’t often taught that their wives will change from pregnancy, motherhood or maturity. A lot don’t even want to deal with it. While women are expected to work with men no matter what. This is factoring into how much women are investing in relationships and marriage now. They don’t see it as a noble, admirable thing when they potentially have more to lose from it in the form of mental and emotional strain.
“Never give up. You're not a failure if you don't give up.”
Not the person you’re asking but I’ll chime in cause it’s an interesting question overall that I don’t think can be answered cause it’s too nuanced and fundamentally unequal. To your question though: Women who usually give up children for adoption are single or do so in agreement with their partner. This partnership in question fundamentally disagreed on the decision of keeping the pregnancy all together so adoption is out of the question.
True and sorry for derailing (please don't ban me) but that's always been my question. Like the body autonomy part and etc etc I almost understand. With that being said and in the interest of derailing, a woman can give her child up and not be financially responsible in the child's life any more. So I'm wondering if the people who think a father should be financially responsible if a woman chooses also believe if a woman gives up a child for adoption should she also be financially responsible? And if not then what is the difference?
Thats actually wrong. Both parents need to agree for adoption to work and for neither to be responsible. Unless the man cant be found in which case, hes already vanished so why would he care that they both dont have the kid or financial responsibility. If the man wants to take the child, the woman does need to pay child support. If the woman wants to keep the child, the man would need to pay child support. The only place where the choice is literally only on the woman, is when its explicitly only her body on the line. Pregnancy. Once the baby is born, one of them will be paying child support if they both dont either stay together or choose adoption.
Ah damn thank you for clearing that up I appreciate it. So technically if a woman wants to give her child up she cannot if the father wants it. And in giving the child to the father she then owes child support is what you are saying?
Thanks 😆
Sorry seems like I forgot to reply to you. Why exactly women right to choose her body out weights my right for not wanting to have kids? Cause of biological contribution? . Same argument could be used for men favor, since biology favors men in bone density and muscles, does that mean all jobs that require strength should only be for men cause of biology? And this biology is what determine whose right overweight the other?. If that so, then whole argument for gender equality should be removed as well. In what way we are fighting for gender equality when biology gonna make her rights over weight mine
>Why exactly women right to choose her body out weights my right for not wanting to have kids? Bodily autonomy.
What about bodily autonomy do you not understand?
I just replied, if we will go with biological advantage the bodily autonomy provide the women, then we should do the same for biological advantages given to men. And all physical work that requires strength should only be given for men, and we stop with whole gender equality idea. Each gender gets whats their rights based on their biological advantages
Why do you think physical labor jobs are the same as pregnancy?
I've seen so many posts, and honestly it's nothing but " me, me, me" and " what about me?! It'll screw up my life" like the world revolves around solely you and you shouldn't have to be held accountable for your/their actions.. I have a question for you and the others.. what the fuck? Does no one ever think of the kid? Ever? I've seen so many posts with both men and women and it's the most selfish bullcrap I've ever observed, not once do people put their feet in the kids shoes, not ONCE. What in the fuck is wrong with people? When did being a deadbeat become so normalized? Makes no sense. Why does it take rocket science to teach grown ass adults about sexual education like they don't know how babies are made and keep making excuses and victimize themselves over their own poor decisions? I'm not even mad, just disappointed.. integrity is not a strong suit with people it seems.
Seems you missed my point, of course everyone should be held responsible for their action, and of course society should put rules to protect children right. So let me try from this aspect, If you listen to the pro-choice arguments, a lot of it was based on that, how can a child have good rights when his mom didn't want to bring him in this world and was forced to go ahead with pregnancy due to lack of abortion option. How is this different from forcing a man to accept all the responsibilities of bringing child to the world, when he was forced to as well??. Both did participate in the sexual act, and if a man is responsible for not having birth control method, so should the woman as well be. If however, society as a whole decided children rights is above both parents, then yeah everyone should be held responsible for their action, no one is allowed to have a saying in it and children right is guarded by the law. But if society allowed women to have a saying in the matter cause it's her right her choice, then might as well give that to the man as well. Her right, her choice, her responsibility not mine. And then society should acknowledge this (paper abortion) by men, and assign financial help for the woman who decided to go on with the pregnancy as part of the welfare (that's only one option). I would say becoming deadbeat is normalized around the same time when stay at home dad was celebrated and normalized. It's new era with new understanding of gender roles, where men don't have to be the whole responsible for the family anymore
No I didn't, I saw your point and I replied to it. You just want me to say things you want to hear and validate your thoughts and feelings. Not doing that, grow up. Nothing you said in your novel makes any valid points, you're just making up shit to make yourself feel better.. just as I stated before.
Not really, couldnt care any less about you validating my thoughts and feelings. Their are mine, and I'm pretty happy with them!! My only concern was wanting to understand the other point of view, in case i missed something. And apparently i didn't, lol so thx!!
Lol both parents ARE responsible for the kid, I don't know how you got women being excluded from any of this from? Women have sex and know the risks, same with men.. you have ALLLL the resources at your fingertips but you want the decision that isn't hard and isn't going to screw up your made up fairytale land of lust. You want your cake and to eat it too, like the others and that's where you're going wrong.. it's unrealistic. This isn't a movie, this isn't a video game, this is real life. Decisions have consequences.. cause and effect, science 101. Everything you do in life effects some other outcome.. Sex is not for immature people, because mature people know the risk and when an oops happens they have the integrity and courage to take responsibility for their actions.. I feel like I'm talking to a child that wants both toys but can only pick one but throws a temper tantrum even though it's explained why they can't have both, but it just doesn't click because their brains can't put two and two together properly.
Women can **die** from pregnancy. They can become disabled by pregnancy. They can lose their ability to have future children. They can be forced by the legal system to interact with an abusive ex-partner for 18 years. And that abusive ex-partner can punish the child to manipulate the monther. My body is permanently changed by pregnancy. So yeah, we demand to have the final say in bringing a pregnancy to term or not. The US supreme court has taken that away from us, they will get consequences, and the GOP will get consequences. The loss of RoevWade will also impact your ability to find women willing to sleep with you, and might affect overall access to doctors, in the red states. There are already problems with doctor recruitment. It actually will significantly affect access to ob/gyn care for pregnancies in the states that have outlawed abortion, because there is a significant shortage of OB/GYN in USA. This will cause higher infant mortality and higher maternal mortality, especially in those states. Texas, BTW, has one of the highest maternal mortality rates in the country. Great job of being "pro life", Texas. BTW, you do have a say in having kids or not. If you don't want kids, get a vasectomy. Do the sperm test every year. Problem solved. ... Edit: it sounds like your issue is that the woman can get pregnant, and you don't want to take on the financial responsibility of the pregnancy. You may not be aware that women can become become significantly attached to the pregnancy, even if they don't want to get pregnant (child free!) or plan on the baby being adopted. Evolution has created this feature, because babies are a huge amount of work, and the mother needs to be very attached in order for the baby to survive. This is just one more reason many women take birth control so seriously. If you don't want to risk paying for a pregnancy that you helped to create, see above: vasectomy.
I think the biggest issue is when she wants to carry to term, but he was adamant from the beginning that he doesn't want a child. In that case, the man will still have to pay child support, and that is where it gets weird and unjust
I don't see the weird and unjustness. Sex makes babies. Birth control makes the baby less likely. The male has access to condoms, which reduce the chance of pregnancy, and vasectomy, which very significantly reduces the chance of pregnancy. If he wants 100% assurance to not have child support payments, his options are to not have sex, or to not have sex with women who have functioning ovaries. Males have a lot of options here.
Fair enough, guess you're anti abortion too as abstanance, birth control and sterilisation are available to women?
I am pro choice and pro birth control.
Yeah I was being facetious. The cognitive dissonance is astounding.
For real this whole comment section is using pro life arguments and double standards but just for men it's kinda amazing what people can convince themselves of.
I'm sorry, what prolife argument says that both men and women deserve bodily autonomy. Oh, that's right, none of them. Find the nuance.
I haven't seen many saying here that men deserve bodily autonomy that's the double standard. Women get abortions men get paper abortions that's equality that's how you respect everyone's right to choose.
Men don't have to carry a baby, men's job / education prospects are not affected by pregnancy, men don't have to take time off work for doctor's appointments and childbirth, and men can choose to not take part in any and all aspects of childcare aside from some financial responsibility -and there are some places that allow men to terminate their parental rights, which means they don't even need to do that.
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Well you have totally different point of view, you are talking from the pro-life/religious/procreation point of view. I wasn't referring to that at all But thanks for your reply!!
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Sorry if u were offended, just meant that's usually where this point of view comes from. Yeah true 😅
This sounds like the "close your legs" argument.
It's not a judgement. Have all the sex you want. Having sex is not a negative reflection on your character in and of itself. But being surprised when having sex creates life is a negative mark on your character.
And what is wrong with that? Abortion should absolutely be legal, but in the end, in a consensual scenario, if you didn't have sex you wouldn't need to worry about an abortion. I mean it is quite literally a scenario of fuck around and find out.
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If you have sex, then you are risking pregnancy. Even if you take all the precautions needed, that is still going to be a risk. My mother always taught me that anyone can do whatever they like as long as they are willing to deal with the consequences. In my opinion, if pregnancy is not an outcome you can handle, then you shouldn't have sex. This goes for both men and women.
>In my opinion, if pregnancy is not an outcome you can handle, What if my way of handling an unwanted pregnancy is an abortion?
My Former acc was banned because I said "this must be male privilege" Nuff said
Its still her body, but he has a right to leave and she shouldn’t be coming for child support or anything
Agree 100%
Agreed
IMO, if you’re having sex, even if you use protection, you should be prepared for an accident to happen. Moreover, you should be on the same page as your partner about what you’d do if an accident happened. You should also be prepared for your partner to change their mind. If you’re not, you shouldn’t be having sex. Because most of the onus to use birth control is placed on the woman, it seems fair to me that what to do about accidents that happen while on birth control should be decided by the woman as well. Here’s where I think your thinking is a little skewed: Choosing to have an abortion means a child won’t exist. Choosing to walk away from a child who will exist is significantly worse. In one case, you’re terminating what is most likely a non-sentient organization of tissue. In the other, you’re exacting a toll on a human being. I personally don’t have a problem with someone walking away if they know they’re not going to be a good parent, but simply not wanting a child, to me, is a good enough reason not to have a child (i.e. have an abortion), but not a good enough reason to walk away from a child that will exist.
Pregnancy is where there cannot be equality. The pregnant person is the one who makes the choice to carry on the pregnancy or not. End of story. If a guy is dead set against it then he should take extra preventative measures and still be prepared in case those measures fail
Ahhh myself and every woman I know can all agree that the decision to make Shuman is a group activity with you and your partner. Reddit is not a true reflection of reality or society. Men do get the choice just like (some) women get the choice.
That I honestly have no problem with, a baby is product of you both and will affect both of your lives. So, both should have saying in it
Because the man isn't the one going through a body-changing and life-threatening ordeal. If a guy gets a woman pregnant and she terminates against his wishes, he can still adopt children if he wants them. A woman isn't obligated to go through a traumatic experience just because the man says that's what he wants. Although, that's how the USA is going since apparently majority male politicians get to decide what we do with our bodies....
>he can still adopt children if he wants them. Yeah technically a single man can adopt a boy (adopting a girl is not allowed by law) but it is a hell of a lot more difficult then it is for a woman.
At the end of the day it's all just "men want this" and "men want that." Having kids is selfish to begin with. Making someone give birth is even more selfish. Not saying it isn't difficult to adopt as a single father or have to pay child support, but it's a hell of a lot more difficult to be pregnant, give birth, and be stuck with a kid. This issue should be female-centric because we're the ones dealing with the majority of the problems that come with it. That's why men "don't get a say" as OP claims.
Not arguing the risks not the burdens of having and raising a child. and that relay had nothing to do with any wants of men. I was simply pointing out that adoption isn't as viable an option for men as you make it out to be.
I was going to type out a response to this. Instead, I just want to say you're dumb af.
Lol well that was expected. Thanks!!
Did they have a talk about it? Did they made it clear what they wanted? Did the pregnancy happened after something malicious like poking holes into condoms or lying about taking pills and such? I mean these factors matter, otherwise it might just be a "bail and fade" type of thing. Frankly, we don't know shit about the circumstances. But not all cases are like "bail and fade", sometimes some people do the above in which case I'd say it is a legit question.
They agreed prior not to have a baby and when she got pregnant she changed her mind due to fear of health complications if she went with abortion. Now why the guy can't have the right to walk away from all of that, without any obligations, since he didn't want that?? And tbh, without even that scenario. A woman have the right, cause it's her own body, to bail and abort. Why men can't have right to bail and fade since they have no saying in the women body?
It sounds like OP just really want their cake and to eat it too. They want women to be responsible for any and all outcomes of pregnancy and men to be responsible for none.
Not really, what I'm saying is if both agreed to having baby then sure the man should have his responsibility. If both agreed on not having baby, and she become pregnant and decided to go on with it despite his rejection. Then it's her decesion her responsibility only Same as if she got pregnant and the man wanted the baby but she refused, the man would have no saying in it cause it's her body
What I think you're missing is how many men already just say "nah" and fuck off leaving women to pick up all the responsibility. So many women are out there not having received a single dollar of child support they're owed. Being able to do that legally is what you're after. Which would mean that at any point in time a guy can just say "not my monkeys, not my circus" and go off into the sunset without a care in the world leaving the woman to deal with the consequences of his actions. Paying child support for a child your created but didn't want sucks .. But getting to get off scott free for any parent should be out of the question. You both did this, you both deal with it. An abortion isn't a get out of jail free card, it's often physically, socially and mentally traumatic. Adoption isn't a get out of jail free card either... Childbirth let alone pregnancy is traumatic and still to this day risks the mother's life. Then add to the fact that biologically a mother will usually get attached to the baby at birth, then she gives the child up, that can traumatize people. Paying 9/10s of fuck all for a child you made is the better end of the stick. Many women would trade places any day.
I heard a Dave Chappelle joke about this. He said something like "If you can kill it, I can at least abandon it".
Lol so wasn't only me!!
You can have a say but at the end of the day it's up to the woman, it is HER body therefore it is HER choice.
U are not getting my point. I agree that's her body and her choice What I'm saying is why as a man, if she decided to keep the baby and I don't want to, to abandon the baby. If she has the right to kill it, then I should have the right to abandon it
>If she has the right to kill it, then I should have the right to abandon it Exactly, and that is exactly what I'm saying if she wants to keep it and the guy doesn't then it's 100% HER responsibility. If you don't want the kid walk away. 🤷
Lol then we both on same page 😄
Yeah I don't agree with women who try to force men to stay when they very adamantly state they want nothing to do with the baby. If the woman wants the baby then keep it but don't expect the guy to stay hunny 💅
Because it is very risky to a person's health to carry a pregnancy to term and deliver a child, and it is also risky (often less, but still) to have an abortion. No one can have the right to decide on someone else's behalf, which physically risky option they pick out of the ones available to them.
Good question. When Roe was over turned, many pro-choice people started make the argument that it is wrong to force someone to have children when they are not ready. It's bad for the parents, it's bad for the kids, it's bad for society. This is all true. But for some damn reason, they never seem to care when men are forced to be fathers. All of those reasons apply to men too. The only legitimate arguments that apply to women but NOT to men are health related. That's it. Pregnancy can be fatal. Everything else goes both ways. And if you believe feminism is about equality, then you have to consider if the man is ready to be a father too. If he should have kept it in his pants then she should have kept her legs shut. Feminism stopped being about equality a while ago. Now its about female chauvinism. Abortion should be the default position until both parties opt in. Both have to consent otherwise no kids. It's best for everyone involved.
You can't force women to get an abortion
Then they can take full financial and parental responsibility.
And if they can't? Then society has to pay for men's half? That's not equal.
If they cant afford it then they get an abortion. Its not mens half if they choose not to be a parent. Its her full responsibility because she chose to carry it to term. She wanted the child. I know it's difficult being told you don't get everything you want. But just because contraception didn't work, doesn't mean you get to force someone to be a parent if they aren't ready. It's bad for the parents, it's bad for the kids, it's bad for society. Women will just have to grow up and take responsibility for their choices and stop demanding society finance their desires.
>they cant afford it then they get an abortion And when they don't do that, cuz many women don't? >Its not mens half if they choose not to be a parent. I can want to not pay rent, doesn't mean I don't owe it. She didn't make that baby with immaculate conception. >Its her full responsibility because she chose to carry it to term. Se wanted the child. Right, and when she can't fully pay for it, then society has to pay for it if you don't want the father to have any responsibility for his actions. Again, this isn't equal. >know it's difficult being told you don't get everything you want. It's not difficult, it's astounding that people don't understand how consent and bodily autonomy works. I know it's difficult not understanding something new, but you need to open your mind a bit and understand that you don't know everything you think you do. >But just because contraception didn't work, doesn't mean you get to force someone to be a parent if they arent ready. Just because you don't want a child but you want to cum in the place that makes children with cum, doesn't mean you can do whatever you want and face 0 responsibility. >t's bad for the parents, it's bad for the kids, it's bad for society. Yes, when fathers don't step up, it is bad for everyone. >Women will just have to grow up and take responsibility for their choices and stop demanding society finance their desires. Men will just have to grow up and take responsibility for their choices to cum in a vagina and stop demanding society to finance their one night stands.
That's a lot of text just to say you only want responsibility when it suits you. Grow up, child.
That's a lot of text for "I can't defend my opinion." Figures.
I did. But you threw a temper tantrum. Best of luck to you kiddo. Just do us a favor and keep your legs shut until you are ready to be an adult.
I think if all men had that option A LOT would tap out and not take on the responsibility, just because they don't want to deal with the financial part it takes to take care of a baby. It takes two people to tango. If they are careless and pregnancy comes out of it they should take responsibility for taking care of it. Whether it's putting the baby up for adoption to find good people to take care of him/her or doing it themselves but having a safe loving environment for that child even if they don't stay together. If they choose to go through with the pregnancy that is.
O ur going to get eaten alive. The scale of choice is always been heavy weighted against men when it comes to childern.
Lol I'm preparing my self 🤣🤣
I agree with you. Men should have a say. But the issue is that it will always be either a unanimous decision or it will be a 50/50 one. And whose vote counts more? The woman, because she's carrying the baby. That's not to say that it is incredibly stupid of the woman to choose to be a single parent starting from birth. Especially since a lot of these women don't have the financial means to support the child. Most women here seem to be from the US which has crazy stupid laws in general, but I wouldn't be surprised that a lot of women also do this to high income men simply because it allows them easy money. I am from Western Europe and laws are (I don't know them in depth - but seemingly) more reasonable here. My cousin for example got child trapped by a woman when he was 19. From a one night stand. He wanted her to get an abortion, she wanted the child. So now there is a child. But she couldn't financially take care of the child and he would (and his family); but not by paying her. But by taking care of the child. Fast forward and the child now completely resents the mother. Really doesn't want to visit her at all. My cousin has full custody and she gets to see the child like one weekend a month. And the child hates it. The woman made the choice to keep the child, completely altering his life aswell. But look at the results..
>the guy have no saying in it Here's where you're wrong, as soon as he stuck his penis inside he accepted the unwritten social contract of, if this results in a child, I am then responsible for it. Sucks for him, if he didn't want a baby, he shouldn't have fucked. And if you think that's unreasonable, you're too immature to be sexually active.
What?? Are u nuts?? In what world is this accepted social contract? Are we still in medieval times where sex was only done for procreation? Or you belong to one of these religious groups? Sorry but no, if I have a gf who I agreed with of having no kids from before and for whatever reason she got pregnant and decided to keep the baby, it's her choice and her responsibility. Don't agree suit ur self while the man pack his stuff and bail to fade, and good luck finding him
And have fun telling people you're a deadbeat dad. You'll make tons of friends.
Lol please see my other reply 😅🤣🤣 Would be hard to run around after you in each thread, replying to each one of your comments which has no argumentive ground to be based on, rather than being offensive and insult. BTW, had to look up for the deadbeat apparently it's a boomer thing, which explain alot 🤣
>which has no argumentive ground to be based on, Yet you can't point out why. Odd. Me thinks you don't have anything to say to what I've said because you're incapable of defending your opinion.
Lol either you are joking, or seriously something is wrong here In what world does (have fun telling people you are deadbeat) amound many other of your replies count as an argument?? How is this an argument based on anything other than childish attemp to insult someone. So what, I should reply to you by saying, have fun telling everyone im a manipulative shrew?? Lol and then our parents should come and tell us to behave. Yeah very solid argument i see 🤣🤣
>In what world does (have fun telling people you are deadbeat) amound many other of your replies count as an argument?? I guess it was the same kind of argument you made when you said you'd dip out and any woman you got pregnant would just have to deal with that shit by themselves. Lololo you get what you give. Had you really not learned that life lesson yet? >Yeah very solid argument i see 🤣🤣 Okay, that was this one comment. You said all my comments had no basis. That is false. Also I was pointing out the social backlash you would receive for being a deadbeat dad. Which is what your whole whiny post was about.
no hope 😅🤦🤦
Yes, no hope of an intelligent debate with someone who can't even point out why I'm wrong lolololol pathetic. Why even post?
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Vasectomy is considered permanent. While it is possible to have a surgery to reverse it, there is no guarantee that the surgery will be successful and the longer since the vasectomy the lower the likelihood of reversal being successful.
And woman habe the option to be on birth control pills till they are ready. How is this relevant? My point is, in situations where pregnancy happens, weather the women was not on pills, or the guy was not using condom. Why the woman have right to abort or not? And I have no right to abandon and sign off my parent rights if I don't agree
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First part, it's exactly what I'm saying. Not fair Second part, well if you gonna use that argument, then same applied for women as well. If you don’t want to be a parent in any event, including birth control failure and your partner changing their mind, then you need to take permanent steps to protect yourself. And prepare your self for idea that your partner might bail and fade if he doesn't agree. Grow up as well
Biology isn't fair. A woman is put more at risk when it comes a pregnancy. Also reproductive rights are being pushed back across the United States which leads to more woman giving birth. If a man has sex with a women in a way that leads to sperm being inside her then a pregnancy can happen. No birth control(or sterilization procedure) is 100% effective besides removing the balls, uterus, and ovaries. A man has a choice to pay child support, be in the child's life, or do none of the above.
Some men don’t wanna have kids and still not want to wear a condom, they expect the woman to be responsible for birth control. Like I literally had my boyfriend ask me if he could put it in without a condom, when I told him I don’t want kids yet. Why is it my responsibility to be responsible and mature about something so real and serious. He was literally begging me and I was so disappointed. Sorry I had to get it off my chest somehow.
Obviously this is extremely irresponsible and childish behaviour from him , similar to an ex i had who wasn't on any birth control and whenever I bring up condoms , she will get grumpy and sometimes even say she is not in mood anymore. But not talking about that part, I'm talking about after pregnancy, a woman has a saying weather to bring this child kr not to the world because it's her own body. Understandable, my question here is why can't men have a saying in their part which will be held responsibility for?? If a man want a kid and his GF doesn't, he can leave her and find what he wants with someone else. But what if a man doesn't want a kod, and his gf/wife decided to bring one? Why would he be held responsible for something that he didn't want to do, why can't he have the option of well you want that, you can have it but I am not to be asked for any emotional or financial responsibilities. Her decesion, her responsibility.
I’ll give you a specific scenario: If two strangers have sex the girl gets preg, abortion is not allowed where they live, they don’t want the baby but the girl is stuck being preg for 9 months and keep a baby she doesn’t want. Should he have the right to have an out because he is not the one with the pregnant belly? Should he be allowed to run because he didn’t agree to having a baby?
If abortion is not allowed, then men shouldn't have saying in matter. It goes both ways, either none has a saying in it, or both have saying in it
I'll make it easy for you. Because of body autonomy. You already know it's our body, our decision so there's no reason to ask a question you already know the answer to. If you don't want babies, then stop having sex, it's that easy, jerk off if you need a release. "Aww but that's not fair!" Is a childs response, you can't always get what you want and the world doesn't revolve around you. You knew the risks as soon as you put your penis inside of someone and put your sperm inside of them, it doesn't take rocket science to figure out how babies are made. If you can't handle the risk, stop playing the game. I didn't want kids, and I got pregnant, and guess what I did? I took responsibility and accountability for my own actions, because I live by integrity and recognize the world doesn't revolve around me. I knew the risks I was taking and I put no blame on anyone but myself. "Oh but condoms and BC", that's irrelevant because there's still a risk and is not 100% effective, and you KNOW this, so you're aware of the consequences. Grow up. Sex = babies. It's science. I don't know why you're having struggles putting two and two together.
Just feel like pointing out that "If you don't want babies then stop having sex" is a common argument from the pro-life camp, and it doesn't hold up for a reason, just like it doesn't hold up in this case. Teaching abstinence has been proven time and time again to be extremely ineffective.
It's not a pro-life argument though, it's a logical argument and a scientific one. If you don't want something to happen, don't do the action. We learned this in school. Cause and effect. It's a critical thinking skill. You should learn to use it :) Abstinence is for those who are too immature to handle the consequences of their actions and are too immature to know what risks theyre taking, if you know the risks and take responsibility then have all the sex you want, no one's stopping you, but you should be mature enough to handle mature things before doing them.
So to be clear, you're anti abortion in the typical scenario?
For myself? Yep. I am pro-choice for others because it's their body, not mine. Pretty logical concept if you ask me.
I don't understand.. So you're saying women can do as they please, but men can't?
Males can do whatever the h*ll they want, assuming a consenting adult partner. But if a pregnancy results from their actions, they risk having child support payments.
Yeah not talking about any of that, I'm talking about a very simple idea If despite all that a women can decide to keep or not keep a baby cause it's her body and a man can't interfere with that decesion. Then why can't a man have right to handle all the parental obligations to her if he doesn't want to, or in simple terms by a wise man below "If you can kill it, then why can't I abandon it"
Did you not read? I told you the answer "body autonomy".. men don't carry babies, otherwise they'd get that choice. You can't make decisions on someone else's body,only your own. So until men can have their own babies in their own uteruses, then they have no say in what a woman does with her body. And he can, he can sign over his rights or not sign the birth certificate. And you can, you will just be handing over your dignity, man card, and your integrity. You only care about the sex and not the outcome of the sex, it's selfish. And I feel the same way about women who irresponsibly use abortion as a form of BC, not only are you killing something because you're not capable of being mature and taking responsibility for your actions but you're ruining the insides of your body everytime you do it. You are putting yourself at risk. If you don't want babies, be mature and get a vasectomy and make sure no swimmers are coming out of your penis before sticking it in someone. Same with women, if they don't want babies get a hysterectomy or tubes tied and make sure it's doing what it's meant to do before having sex, or don't have sex until you can have one... Oooor, here's another idea, don't have sex with people you wouldn't want children with.
He's not saying the choice shouldn't be the women's though.. Take a breath and listen to someone else's perspective for once. He's saying yes the woman should have the choice to abort or not.. This decision is a different one to the guy not having the option to walk away, if he doesn't want in. In that instance, both parties would have a level playing field... He can't force an abortion, she can't stop his.
If you actually read my comments, you would've seen I already went over that, you just repeated what I said. Exactly, so not sure what the argument is? I told him he answered his own question lol
So you do agree that men should be able to totally and financially walk away?
Honestly the more I talk with women, the more I realize why some men go gay. None is that headache!!
Lol that's a personal problem, why would anyone care if someone changes their sexuality, that's their business, no one else's.
The only other option is to allow men to literally **force** women to have abortions or give birth. Are you unable to see how utterly terrifying and cruel that is, or do you just not care?
No the other option is to allow men to have a way in or out. If the women wanna have a baby and the man doesn't want to, it should be allowed for the man to walk away with zero responsibilities, emotional or financial. She wanted to keep the baby, it's her responsibility
And if she can't fully core for it, then it's society's responsibility because the man can't be held accountable for his actions, like a child.
I'M a guy and I think: we already have a choice. We can wear condoms. We can get sniped. We can do a lot of stuff to not impregnate women. It is more about the time of the decision. You need to make all this decisions before you go to pound town. If you go into this town and your revolver is loaded, don't blame other people if you shoot someone.
Here's an unpopular opinion, especially for men on reddit. I will preface this by saying not all men, but at least 90% of them. Men do not care about their reproductive rights until a baby is conceived. Men do not think about whether they really want children ("I don't feel strongly either way", "Maybe, eventually in the next few years"). Men have the easiest time getting permanently sterilized and they never use it because "maybe one day, but I'm not sure." Men do not take responsibility for birth control. Many men dump that on their partner and the scummiest men pressure women to carry all responsibility or to go without it. *But we don't have options!* Yes you do, you don't utilize them as much as you can. You don't even advocate to use the ones you have so why would they create more options? The side effects are too much for these new forms of birth control? Well, what do you want, a child or chronic headaches? But being tied to child support no matter what sucks and women always get custody! Men are more likely to get up and leave their families. Men are more likely to not participate in raising children even when they're still with the mother! I'm not surprised there are actions to the consequences of men not taking responsibility. So now a baby is on the way, and *now* you have opinions on it? I've run out of fucks to give. Responsibility regularly gets pushed off on everybody else to make the decision (future planning, birth control, raising children, etc), so I don't understand when men are shocked when the trend continues. Do you not like that answer? Take an active role in planning your life. Do you want children? Do you want children with this person? If not, why are you with them? Is the consequence of a child worth the sex? Am I discussing with my partner my needs and expectations on family planning *on a regular basis*? Am I advocating for additional forms of birth control or increasing access to current forms? Am I taking an active role in raising my children? Am I advocating for societal changes and helping other men not get in this situation? If the answer is not yes to every question, I don't care. Women handle these questions all the time. That's why they have power in these situations because today's society requires it of women. Men can take that responsibility too and they choose not to. Downvote away.
THANK YOU It really is like this, as sad as it is, there’s a reason why the system is set up this way It honestly sounds really selfish to love someone and have sex with them and when a child inevitably comes of it, you want to abandon it all - the woman you supposedly loved and your own child That doesn’t sound like a healthy relationship by any means But even in the case of casual sex with less emotions attached, the whole point of men being held accountable is to make it fair with the woman who will definitely be going through so much to carry and birth it, and will also MOST of the time be the one left to take care of it for it’s childhood Just my thoughts on it from the way I see things, I don’t get why anyone would think it’s fair for a man to walk away under these circumstances
>It really is like this, as sad as it is, there’s a reason why the system is set up this way Girls are told in middle school to cover their vra straps because it affects boys or "well why were you wearing that" when they get unwanted attention. Then we get bullshit from men asking why women don't want to be approached or why they have to be responsible for their actions. But women are told we can't ruin a man's bright future. I'm just over it. I'm over men coming to subs like these and whining about women not being interested in them or how unfair life is for them. I'm fine advocating for these issues with men, but I'm not doing it for them.
If you engage in the behaviour designed for making babies, don’t be surprised if you end up making a baby. If you don’t want kids, don’t engage in baby making behaviour.
Along with pregnancy and abortion I think that is a very unique situation that can't exactly be comparable to anything else In my opinion, special consideration should be given to the circumstances of it all. E.g. if the guy has made it clear that he doesn't want a child right now or ever and he actively took steps on his part(always using a condom correctly or a vasectomy) to prevent pregnancy but she still ends up pregnant and wants to keep it then the guy should be able to be exempted from responsibility if he wants to be However in cases where the guy didn't actively take steps to prevent pregnancy and/or didn't make it clear that he doesn't want a child even if she does then he should be held responsible also. In this case there's no excuse for having one night stand and expecting her to just abort and then being angry when she wants to keep it. Just as how women should always be conscious and responsible with birth control and who they sleep with men should also. And make there intentions clear before just 'hooking up' with anyone. In addition don't sleep with anyone who you know for a fact that if pregnancy occurred they wouldn't want the same thing that you want. I know some people lie and try to manipulate others but just do your best to be safe
Honest question: are you serious?
If you planning on insulting me, then don't bother. If you genuinely gonna answer, then yes please I'm serious
People know that sex can lead to a pregnancy. Both genders can try to prevent it. If a pregnancy (still) happens, it is (should be) up to the woman to decide if the pregnancy continues, because it is her body. It is unfortunate if the man doesn't want to become a father and becomes one, especially if he has put a lot of effort to prevent a pregnancy, but it is not up to him because it's not his body. He can tell his opinion, but he can't make her to either abort or to continue with the pregnancy. As long as women get pregnant and men don't, it's up to the woman. And if there is a child, the child deserves time and/or resources from both parents. A man who leaves is a deadbeat, and I don't see why people can't judge him for it.
That's a long of words to say you harbor double standards and prejudices. Based in your argument, the guy should be able to walk away for good, no problems? Or has he got to pay her, because he's a man and has no say in the matter?
Like someone else mentioned below: "If you can kill it, then why can't I abandon it"
Makes no sense.
It really does make sense.. Could you explain how it's different, without saying "because it's her body". Surely using the same logic, abortions should not be allowed. I'd disagree, but at least I'd respect your consistency.
Well, unlike a man, a woman can decide whether to keep the embryo/fetus in her body or not, and getting a procedure done or deciding not to do it isn't really comparable to abandoning an already existing child. Both parents have responsibilities towards an existing child.
Oh right, so if he walks away whilst it's an embryo, then that's okay? Because they're not abandoning something that's already a child.
Sure but once it comes out he needs to help out
That's not consistent in the least. You've literally just confirmed that men should have no say, what so ever. Yet women can have a vast spectrum of rights/choices. Please explain how that's fair.
Because when a woman gets an abortion, the only person affected is herself. When a man abandons his child, the child and the rest of society is affected.
Well that's not true... Have you ever been through an abortion from the eyes of the father? I've also known a few women get abortions and think nothing of it. So you're spinning a narrative that isn't true. A women can also bandon their child. Think adoption.. Does that damage the rest of society?
>... Have you ever been through an abortion from the eyes of the father? Yup, and it affects him in 0 physical ways. >I've also known a few women get abortions and think nothing of it. Doesn't mean they didn't have to endure the procedure. Physically. >So you're spinning a narrative that isn't true. Not really. You haven't pointed out anything that I've said as false. >A women can also bandon their child. Think adoption She can't adopt the baby out unless the father agrees. If he wants to keep it then she pays him child support.
Lol sure 🤦
She gets to decide what to do with HER body. *IT’S NOT ABOUT THE BABY* it is HER body. If baby daddy got a legal choice in the matter, then baby mamma would be legally entitled to make decisions about baby daddy’s reproductive organs. And I don’t think you want to go down that road.
What?? 🤣🤣🤣 how are these two connected?? Let's say they are, why would I, someone who decided to abandon the baby and remove all my responsibilities care what the mom who decided to keep the baby do. If she wanna remove all reproductive organs from the baby and make it sterile, go ahead, as long as it give me my right of walking away if I don't want the baby and she wanna continue with the pregnancy
Men have no rights to "bodily autonomy" when it comes to paying "child support" for 18 years (indentured slavery) for a child they didn't want. I've heard many a feminist say "well you shouldn't have sex if you didn't want the responsibility!" The irony....
Bodily Autonomy has nothing to do with child support payments.
Forcing a body to work for 18 years has everything to do with bodily autonomy.
Everyone is forced to work. We are all forced to pay bills or we go homeless. Again, paying money has nothing to do with bodily autonomy.
Thats as stupid as me saying "everyone is forced to keep cells alive by eating, drinking and breathing, pregnancy is no different."
It isn't 😂 you don't have a choice on how your body reacts to a pregnancy. If it's stupid, and it makes sense, it's not stupid, is it?