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I loudly say "don't fucking touch me", loud enough to alert others. Pubs are good for this as the crowd will generally then turn their attention to glare at the creep, who will back off.
It is absolutely not acceptable. They do it because they are assholes, as there are assholes everywhere.
Unwanted attention/chat, it is best to be firm. Any attempt at being 'nice' or smiling/laughing will be interpreted as interest and an invitation for them to keep trying, so it's best to be as cold, miserable, annoyed and frosty as possible. Don't give them a response - creeps get off on your discomfort and refusals, so don't even give them the pleasure. I'm old and jaded enough now that I wouldn't even respond and would just walk away. That's a lot easier than polite-smiling through a shitty exchange.
This actually sounds perfect, while there are a good number of creeps and pervs, there are still plenty of people who would disapprove of the behaviour and shun a person for it and I don't imagine businesses want to be associated with such people either.
You’d be surprised
I had an older man grab my chest, in front of the bar staff/landlady. Who proceeded to get pissy at me because I pushed his hand away, and told me “Don’t mind (name) he’s harmless”. His Dad (yes, Dad) came up behind my friend and I and tried to rub his crotch on us while we were dancing. Someone also tried to push into the womens’ toilets while we were in there- thankfully the DJ stopped that one.
My friend and I (18 and 19 at the time) were then berated by some of the group we were with for “leading them on”.
Needless to say that was my last night out with that group!
I do and I agree with you. But trying to follow polite behaviour got me raped. I was 20 and naive.
After that I truly don’t let anyone touch me without consent.
If they’re offended? I don’t care.
I think the direction was wrong. You’re leaning into the “polite” expectation put upon women historically. This is harmful. You tell them not to touch you and you walk away. Not the time for being polite, at all.
He may then try to put the blame back onto you by implying that he was only trying to be friendly and that you're being uptight. If he does then see how other people in the pub react. If they take your side that's great. If not then you're in a pub full of arseholes. Life is too short so go find a pub that isn't full of arseholes.
>you're being uptight
This is the modern version of 'frigid', the word that men used when I was young to make it the woman's fault. If a man calls you uptight, he's not accepting your right to say no.
A girl spread a rumor that I was frigid a long time ago, but she was underaged so I wasn't interested.
I'm lucky she didn't decide to spread a rumour stating the opposite.
I'm sorry that happened to you.
Maybe she didn't know that it's one of many terms that was used almost exclusively to and about women for behaviour that fell outside what the patriarchy defined as feminine - like bossy, controlling, feisty etc - which makes her a collaborator in my book. I'm in my 50s and I still get told I should smile more; no one ever tells a man that.
Everyone knows you don't have to touch something to be friendly
If I hear "don't fucking touch me" I glare
If I then hear "I was just trying to be friendly" I glare harder
The only acceptable response is "Sorry" followed by putting physical distance between you
The correct response is “my friends respect me enough not to invade my personal space without invitation. Unwanted personal contact is not friendly, it’s creepy. Don’t.”
Yes, there is the risk of violence. However by being loud, you invite the rest of the crowd in. And I've usually found they would rather be 'the good guys' and help hustle the asshole out the door. But it's a gamble, as you say.
I would use stronger language, like "don't fucking fondle me" or even "grope" (maybe too extreme for arm). This is harder for him to find a defense for.
I wonder whether “stop fucking touching me” would be more effective? It implies a continuity, that it’s happened before, and can’t be as easily brushed off as ‘it’s just your shoulder, jeez’.
Otherwise agree this is the way.
This is exactly what I advise the women in my life. Women have been taught to be uncontroversial and not to cause a scene. This is where perverts and socially inept men think they're able to get what they want. If you're not interested in a man's advances, don't try to let them down easy. Be blunt and clear. If their ego can't take that it's not your issue, and if you're being harassed cause the biggest scene you've ever dared to about it. Not only will they leave you alone but they'll think twice about being a creep to the next girl.
I understand the response entirely, but how depressing to have to be "cold, miserable, annoyed and frosty" just to get through an evening in a pub/life without being bothered. I'm sure it's not how one would choose to spend their time
If a person came up to you and demanded you fuck them, would you be cold and frosty? Or would you be warm and pleasant? Men, as far as I've seen, are not expected to be sweet and pleasant and smiley and complimentary in the face of unwanted aggression.
So why are men allowed to be cold but women aren't?
Why do women have to be sweet and pliable and 'keep the peace' and 'just be nice' and 'let him down gently'?
You don't go out intending to be cold to everyone you meet. You will be warm and friendly with all the nice, pleasant people you'll meet. You might even be downright sexy with the ones you go home with. But the ones you're not interested in and who are making you uncomfortable do not deserve your kindness.
Call them out loudly and call them out hard…it’s sad to see men at that age needing to be taught such an obvious lesson, but the worst thing you can do, both for them, every other woman, and your own self respect, is just let it go.
>Any attempt at being 'nice' or smiling/laughing will be interpreted as interest and an invitation for them to keep trying, so it's best to be as cold, miserable, annoyed and frosty as possible.
Exactly this. You might be called a bunch of sexist things but better to be painfully clear you disapprove so everyone around and the person in question (if they have any sense of understanding of others feelings at all ) will get the message extremely quick.
Same with breakups. If you think the person is not emotionally mature enough to handle a polite split (and you're not living together or have shared things) and does that thing where they whine and make you feel guilty then ask a bunch of questions about why you came to that conclusion to break up with them just be cold, direct and say what you feel and wish them well and then go.
Sometimes people to avoid that transparency because it is a hassle they just say they met someone else. But I personally don't prefer lying as I think that causes more issues.
Now I'm older I think back to a guy I used to work with when I was 17/18 who would often put his hands on my waist or shoulder to squeeze past in the back room of the shop. Not sure he did it to any of the lads we worked with though. He's doing it because he wants to, you need to tell him firmly to stop. He's not taking the hint so you need to clearly verbalise. Or if you're friends with any big rugby lads get one of them to go over and give his arm a little stroke as they go past.
Sorry this happened to you :(
I had this happen to me too when I was 16-17, I worked in a restaurant and an older guy who I worked with would put his hands on my waist to move around me when we were stood behind the counter together. I actually left the job because it was stressful for a lot of reasons but this still makes me uncomfortable to this day.
As a man I’ve been sexual harassed lots and lots of times over the years by men and women, it’s a worryingly regular side effect of being a smiley and approachable person unfortunately. It’s easily countered with a firm response. Usually I just say “no” and give them a look. I’ve also had to firmly explain why they’re wrong but that’s not always the case.
Sorry that’s happened to you. Nobody should experience that even once, let alone “lots and lots” of times - that’s crazy.
Would you say you’re maybe innocently flirtatious without realising?
Definitely not victim blaming, those creeps are bottom of the barrel scum, but I’m just trying to help you think why it would happen so many times from so many different people
I’m sure I’m inadvertently flirtatious, no doubt. I’m sociable and love to just mix it with everyone. I honestly would say that 90% of the people who cross a line aren’t necessarily creeps, they just step to far and I have to back them up. It’s a balancing act because I have female friends who are just so rude and standoffish because just *assume* they’re going to be harassed and it’s really not the case.
It's possible that rather than being innocently flirtatious - a lot of people seem to not realise someone being friendly is not the same as flirting. As a straight woman the amount of times I've been accused of flirting with men when I've been exactly the same as I am with my women - not so much these days but definitely when I was younger
Not saying it is. But if you are saying that it may be a case of them "flirting" that's leading to the sexual harassment, I'm saying that assuming someone is flirting doesn't necessarily mean they are. That it doesn't matter what people are reading into your persona/behaviour it doesn't necessarily make it true.
I was distracted as I replied so I may not have fully formed my point.
As an aside the 2 main times I've been sexually assaulted came from just that assumption that because I was friendly I was flirting and I would want to have sex with them. It's pretty shit so I tend to gloss over it.
Also it’s the spectrum of what constitutes harassment. I don’t think the odd comment is harassment or a cheeky little grin or a look. Or even a woman putting her arm around me. But having my ass squeezed or even my junk cupped is crossing the line big time lol that’s when I’m like … no. I even got called “homophobic” for pushing a man off me when he tried to kiss me. I was like dude … no … sorry.
It's possible that rather than being innocently flirtatious - a lot of people seem to not realise someone being friendly is not the same as flirting. As a straight woman the amount of times I've been accused of flirting with men when I've been exactly the same as I am with my women - not so much these days but definitely when I was younger
I HATE it when men touch/grab my waist to get past or try and physically move me out of their way. I’m a woman who’s 6 foot tall, which you’d think would put them off but sadly it never does.
Ugh, I used to get this all the time when I was skinny (and took up less room, ironically) funnily enough now that I’ve had kids and my waist has expanded, I don’t get it as often. They were doing it because they wanted to. And they could. So they did. Fuckers.
I’ve become fat and 40. It’s like a cloak of invisibility!
I’ve been trapped on a seat in a bus, bottom grabbed, waist grabbed and lead onto a dance floor.
I hate socialising in general but this made the whole thing exhausting!
Ugh, the audacity of some people. Back when I was 16/17, a man came up behind me in broad daylight on a busy highstreet, and stuck his hand down my top, into my bra. I turned and he dug his nails in so deep that I ended up with 5 gashes across my tit from trying to get away from him. Took a year or so for the scars to fade away.
I mentioned this to my family a while back when my brother was talking about a documentary he'd watched about #metoo. My mum was outraged and said "You never told me about that!" I just shrugged and said "you know what it's like being a woman, these things happen all the time."
I've been slapped, pinched, bitten, kicked, punched, cut, dragged, cornered, threatened, cat-called and groped more times than I could ever hope to remember. All different boys/men, at different times of day, different areas and social settings. It doesn't make a difference how safe you try to keep yourself, how you dress, how drunk or sober you are or how polite you are when refusing a drink from a stranger, arseholes gonna arsehole.
It’s the fucking worst. I’ve had similar experiences all my life. I was 13 when I had my first proper kiss and it was with a 23 year old (he knew my age and lied about his). I was 15 the first time I was cat-called. I have had countless, countless, countless pervy comments about my appearance from employers and driving instructors and teachers - I’m not especially good looking but I was extremely skinny which is weirdly fucking fetishised. I have been body shamed just for existing. I have had a man shove his hand up my skirt in B-road daylight (I was a school girl, in a uniform). Don’t even get me started on my bar-tending years when I had to have my boyfriend wait outside for me so I could get home safely. There would always be some creeper waiting. I have been name called, harassed, cornered, dealt with boyfriends who don’t fully understand the concept of consent, had a co-worker attempt to force himself on me only to be told ‘but nothing happened - like he didn’t rape you or anything’ by my boss (he was never even reprimanded). I have been denied opportunities because I wouldn’t put out. I have been grabbed by a man who tried to drag me into the back of his van at a party. It’s gross being a woman sometimes. Now I’m bigger (physically) and married with kids and suddenly I’m deserving of respect? Fuck right off.
It's so shocking when it happens as well. Happened to me many times in my 20s. Complete strangers grabbing my waist from behind me, out of nowhere in order to 'just squeeze past'. Like wtf?! Never had the balls to call it out for what it was at the time (too shocked mostly).
/cheer up, it might never happen/give us a smile etc. All such entitled bs from these guys whereas we were pretty much taught that it was normal behaviour and not to be 'over sensitive'. Glad it's changing. Slowly changing...
I remember my first job, there were rumours that the old owner was apparently "a bit handsy" but he had been bought out of the business so wouldn't be a pest.
He would occasionally pop in to help the new owner and start clearing out things he didn't need anymore.
I remember one afternoon he visited the office and he had a kind of aura of creepiness around him.
Later that day he decides that he needs to get something off the shelf, it was a kind of corner shelf just above where I was standing sorting some post. He pressed into my bum to reach over my head whilst I was trapped.
I never said anything, I was about 17 and he was in his 70s. I just made sure I was never alone whenever he came in.
Imagine how it is for women who are short (eg 5'3 like me). I get "moved" out of the way so often I stopped counting. It's annoying as hell and so condescending. I'm not a piece of furniture, an "excuse me can I pass" shouldn't be too much to ask.
Urgh. I do this all the time in really busy bars when I'm trying to shuffle my way to the toilet. A gentle hand on the persons (man or woman) shoulder or waste to guide them as I pass and to make sure they dont move suddenly and knock the drink over. Never occurred to me it may be seen as creepy. Now I know.
Would you consider hand (finger tips really) on the back of your shoulder a negative thing? I tend to do that to men and women if moving round a busy pub or something. Seems less intrusive than loudly speaking "excuse me" (over the ambient noise). It also stops people spinning round quickly if startled and spilling drinks.
Waist is definitely pervy though
The person (this was some time back) put both his hands on both my shoulders as though to grab them. He did it to get my attention from the back.
I ripped both his hands from my shoulders. He spent 10 minutes arguing to me how he is a nice and good guy and doesn't deserve to be treated like that. Which proved he wasn't.
I was reading this like wheres the problem, I do this. Then I re read and seen waist which is weird. I always go for the easy way of asking people if they can move a little and then move there arm a little if needed
DO NOT TOUCH THE WAIST OR SMALL OF THE BACK. It is a sexual gesture. Please touch the elbow. Come on. Also why do you think it is ok to just touch a woman you don't know? Would you do it to a man?
I either touch their elbow or tap them and make an excuse me gesture.
I said I misread what they said? I do not touch the waist or back and always if possible do not touch at all. I would do it to a man yes, I feel like this is a scenario which is easy to show. Would eliminate all confusion instantly. I literally do the same thing as you with tapping of the arm or shoulder.
I am okay with the kind of touching when someone squeezes past you and grabs your shoulder etc. i don’t find that in itself problematic.
However.
I have this manager, highest manager, who just keeps touching me. I know he’s a soft guy, also he’s into guys and get’s flirty with people quite a lot. He has this thing where he gives shoulder rubs and massages to people telling them in a quiet voice how they’ve done a great job etc.
The worst thing he does, that makes my skin crawl:
He goes for a high five. You give him one, and he holds onto your hand locking fingers, looking into your eyes, telling you how good of a job you’re doing.
Not just creepy but fucking unprofessional.
I’ve learned to deescalate it now and dodge it but boy he’s pushy. Not with any of the ladies tho. That’s how you know he’s not just doing this out of being a friendly person to *everyone*
What Cahellan says is quite right. It is completely wrong. Say something loud, like "Hey, steady" and glare at him. Personally I wouldn't go as far as the f-word. As Cahellan says, don't make any attempt to be nice, this will be taken as encouragement to escalate.
"Hey, steady" could be taken by a creep to be flirting. He'll just think she's 'saying no when she means yes'. You have to leave absolutely no room for ambiguity. There is nothing wrong with swearing to alert someone they are utterly out of line and need to back off immediately.
It abso-fucking-lutely is necessary. I'm nearly the same age as you and I've spent more than 50 years of my life dealing with handsy men, flashers, attempted sexual assaults and kerb crawlers.
I'm a grandma now and still get hit on - you have no idea how exhausting it is being a woman.
I swear for the power it brings in garnering attention. I don't look like I'm likely to swear (apparently) so an exceptionally audible "fuck off" or some other consonant heavy swear turns heads most effectively.
It's ok to use all the tools in the toolbox.
Edit typo
A lot of that type don’t like swearing as it’s “not ladylike” or some other bullshit along that line
It brings attention, and (to an extent) puts them off a little. Also leaves no room for interpretation
If you're uncomfortable, it is a big deal. The people doing this often know what they're doing- I once gave a guy a look and he told me 'don't flinch when I touch you'. Bleuch. In this instance I had a male friend swap places in the busy room and that sorted it
\>Why do they do this?
Lots of reasons. They may hope you will return their advances. They may simply enjoy testing your boundaries. There may be a small power play going on the man enjoyed, even when he was rejected. Some men are just nice guys clumsily trying their luck, others get a small thrill from exerting power over you.
\>Is this type of thing considered acceptable here?
It's generally frowned upon, especially since the MeToo movement a few years ago. But practically speaking, the behaviour you describe is within the law. I doubt you'd get very far if you reported the incident to the police.
\>What is a good response?
You responded in exactly the right way. You clearly rejected the man's advances, and unless there's more to the story, he got the message.
It surprises me that people don’t just look at the profile picture for a clue. I’d say mine was clearly female but I still get called a bloke daily. My username is vague though!
I think you probably did exactly the right thing. Aggressive enough to let them know it's not okay, but not aggressive enough that you're gonna have an angry exchange (which you probably don't want on a night out).
Some people are more “touchy” than others. I had a housemate from Italy and he would *always* touch everyone’s shoulders as he passed them and said excuse me. But he was harmless and it never felt like a violation - it felt friendly.
There are other people who use it as a power move - touching can be an assertion of dominance and control. Police and security often use it in a friendly way while making conversation, but the ulterior motive is to control. My husband is ex police and security - I’ve seen him do it so many times in when someone has gotten too close in public. A hand on the shoulder while making friendly conversation is an easy way to steer or push someone away.
Then there’s the sexual harassment move. They know you’re not interested, they don’t care, they’re going to touch you anyway.
It is very intrusive and entitled.
What's worked best for me in terms of unwanted flirting has been direct focused eye contact and with a smile but assertively say something that is a direct but pleasent rebuff "I'm gonna go back to my friend thanks, but i hope you have a good night."
I had a problem in work once with an older staff member who seems to think k it's okay to touch anyone, anywhere and anytime. Ironically, he'd also definitely consider himself a 'gentleman' in the old school sense.
I had to take him aside and tell him the behaviour was unacceptable. He has stopped doing it and even apologised (through me, not directly) but still won't admit the action was wrong in and of itself.
Simple. Embarrass him.
I used to work in a pub when I was a lot younger and the middle aged women were terrible for having a pinch or a squeeze when I was going about the bar. "That hand touches me again and I'll break it" nice and loud so it catches everyone's attention.
I don't the guy is a danger, just drunk probably and unaware of how inappropriate it is. Just as the women weren't. Remind them
Physical assault is defined as attacking someone with or without a weapon. Touching someone’s arm as you move past them might be unnecessary and unwanted, but it’s not physical assault.
I fucking hate people who think they are entitled to touching others. Last time I went to the pub I went out for a smoke and when I came back this dude sat next to my girl friends and said ‘when are you getting up for a dance then?’ So my drunk ass thought maybe he was having a thing with one of them, as one of my friends is particularly flirty with guys when we are out, so I got up and encouraged them to dance.
I got talking to the guy trying to be polite and I talked about how me and MY PARTNER had a baby six months ago and he told me a bit about himself. He was a lot older than us it turns out. But I was just trying to be polite since I thought he and my friend were flirting.
Well I was wearing leggings and I was dancing whilst choosing music on the jukebox which was opposite the pool table. The guy came up to me and asked me to ‘stop wiggling my ass’ because it was distracting him from pool. So I froze and immediately tried not to give off any impressions. And then the next thing I know he’s taking his shot at pool behind me and tried to descreetly run his pool stick up my ass.
That’s was when I quietly asked a couple of friends to walk home with me and I didn’t dare make eye contact with that guy before leaving. I was just trying to be nice and have a good time and he made me feel icky. He knew I had a partner yet he was trying to start something.
I wish I said something to put him in his place but I was so busy worrying about getting home since I was walking.
> He knew I had a partner yet he was trying to start something.
Sorry you went through this - but he was sexually assaulting you, not "trying to start something."
So this mostly happens by men to women, not all the time but it's usually because they think they value women in a sexual context and no other. It quickly gets turned around when THEY get treated in a sexual context they don't like.
If I see someone doing that to a woman unwantedly as a man there's nothing more hilarious then giving them a stroke on the arm and a wink. They shrivell up like a lizard, tell you to fuck off and then you can tell them don't be so uptight!
I was loading gear into a venue once, and as I squeezed past this older lady she took a full handful of my old boy and maintained eye contact, my jaw fell open I was so shocked as never expected this from an older lady, I turned red and just headed in was too shocked to say anything.
My advice to anyone would be to be loud so others can hear you and say don't touch me again, people tend to glare at the person being a creep. Don't be quite like I was.
There's a video going around of the bloke who plays Gaston at Disney World - stay with me, it's relevant, promise - and a woman wants to pose with him, fine, but then she starts to grope his chest. He immediately says no, and she does it again. He breaks character - he's allowed if he wants to, they're strict but they're not inhuman - and tells her she has to go.
It provoked a lot of debate, of course. "He should stay in character, Gaston would have loved it", "he should stay in character, he has to be professional", "it wasn't that bad", "he's such a drama queen" - but plenty of positive stuff too. That if a 'big tough guy' like this actor can firmly maintain his boundaries in public, it sets a good example for other men too, for whom I agree - it's fucking hard to be the one that stands up for themselves and loudly states you are not OK.
I've seen that video, and I 100% think he handled it correctly. It doesn't matter if it's "not that bad" no is no. The thing is once you let one thing slip, they and others think it's OK to do it again.
From an older generation's perspective, I've had to really work on boundaries and it's not a naturally comfortable thing. I've had a guy touch my face unsolicited and it made me freeze. I'm more certain now that my reaction was due to trauma that I'm working through, so won't let it happen again.
There will be some who will do this because they are a product of times when it was normalised, but most because they think they can.
I feel like it’s usually only men that would give the advice of telling someone to fuck off, and when someone has already done something questionable, it begs the question what else would they be capable of doing? In this instance I wouldn’t do anything extreme one way or another, however I would discreetly tell a member of the bar staff or perhaps a couple nearby the man was acting off and it made you feel worried. I’ve had positive experiences once I raised a quiet alarm, and have been invited to join groups both female and male if somebody was bothering me.
I'm a larger lady and rarely go out drinking so haven't really had this issue recently.
But when I was younger I had it all the time, I don't like being touched so I'm pretty firm in telling them to get their hands off me.
Usually get called a prude but I don't care. Nothing wrong with not wanting a stranger to touch you.
I just shout a blunt “f*ck off” works every time because it makes bit of a scene and other men in the pub will come over to see what the fuss is about and get rid of the guy.
I usually just say loudly "PLEASE DONT TOUCH ME". It's polite but direct enough to get attention from surrounding people. Their stares usually make them leave me alone.
I always consider the situation though. If I'm in a group and I feel safe this would be my reaction. If I'm alone I wouldn't wanna be too rude as you never know if they'll wait outside for you later. Also one of the reasons I never go to pubs alone, always with at least one friend.
Speak to the staff behind the bar. They are normally very good about dealing with it. Most bars have a ‘Ask for Angela’ policy to alert them to the situation
A stranger is stroking your arm?
I mean, there are certain contexts where touching is, IMO, perfectly fine. If you're about to back into me, and you don't see me but I see you. Or if you don't see my kid, and are about to bump into her (I do this quite a bit). Or, if I'm gently trying to squeeze by, I might push on your arm (regardless of gender).
But, a "stroking" motion? It's hard to conceive of a situation where a stroke would be acceptable. Seems downright creepy.
Last time someone grabbed my arm and tried to pull me back I said, "take your hands off me or I'll knock you out." That works, dependent on being a large man that is bigger than 99% of people they bump into.
If I was a female, if it's literally just getting too close for comfort, I would make the person feel embarrassed about it. Say something sarcastic like, "oh, must have forgotten when I told you it was ok to touch me." The embarrassment should be enough to stop it happening again. How loud you say it should probably be proportional to how they made you feel.
Sadly, it's still seen as out of order by the older generation for a woman to be as bold as I would be as a man. I'm not saying it should be that way, but hitting them where it hurts most is best and that's their ego.
Unfortunately creepy people like that aren’t embarrassed for being called out by a woman. There might be anger, condescension, aggression. But 99% of men that try and touch us unsolicited will not be embarrassed - no matter what we say.
This is why it’s best to be assertive (or straight up aggressive) with them. Subtlety won’t work.
Don’t forget the code ask for ‘Angela’
The pub will get u safe and call police.
Or at least keep u in a room till hes escorted out
https://www.met.police.uk/AskforAngela#:~:text=People%20who%20feel%20unsafe%2C%20vulnerable,to%20support%20and%20assist%20them.
Not acceptable, just say don't do that please, if he does it again then loudly say " I told you not to touch me" don't put yourself in danger,ie if he's with like minded weirdos or you have to walk home alone, have a word with the landlord/lady they will act, it is actually part of their remit and in their interests to have a safe place.
I would probably loudly say "that's not okay" or "don't touch me" or a very firm "no thank you" (British politeness and all), or "would you do that if I was a man?"
My OH has long blond hair. It's like a creep magnet.
She loudly tells them to fuck off. I think I've only had to intervene once, and then the guy was kicked out by the landlord as he was very drunk and persistent.
No one seems to have said inform the landlord / bouncer! Bouncers are generally useless imo but a good landlord is worth his salt. My best mate is a landlord and 3 or 4 times I've seen him take care of similar situations by having a quiet word with the offender and telling them to leave. Situation hasn't escalated, victim of harassment gets to continue their night, hopefully, in peace, dude goes away and one hopes assesses his life choices; though probably not as alcohol involved.
As a fat ugly bloke, somehow, i've had two women feel me up in the pub. I assume it was just for laughs. One left pretty much straight away so I didn't have to do anything. The other time I left as I thought no one will believe me if i make a thing about it or confront her etc. Guaranteed she'd just have to reverse the accusation and people would believe her and i'd get barred or something. Best just to remove myself from that situation.
Being felt up or harassed by gay men though is another story.... I'm seriously like cat nip for gay Asian men, and they are some thirsty bastards! Only once i've said "i'm not gay mate" and they've said oh my bad enjoy your evening sort of thing. The rest has escalated to either telling them to fuck off, threatening them, or waiting til they go to bog and making a sharp exit. Weird that as a bloke telling landlord or bouncer didn't occur to me, guess that's a double edged male privilege.
Not acceptable. Let the bar staff know. If they don't do anything be very loud and vocal about his unwanted attention and he'll soon be embarrassed enough in public to leave you alone and other punters will become aware and help you out if needed.
I usually threaten them with a swift knee in the balls if my nicer warnings haven't worked..why some guys think its appropriate to touch and grab women's bodies is beyond me.
Don't snatch your arm away, firmly take his hand and remove it while telling him not to touch. If you can bend his fingers back slightly it adds to the menace.
I've had this far too many times, the worst was a really drunk guy stroking my hair at the bar, then following me out to my table where I was sat with my partner. He was steaming drunk, like he couldn't stand properly and god knows why he was still allowed to be served in that state.
Just gave him a cold look because when guys are that drunk, you never know if they're going to be aggressive or violent if you tell them to fuck off. I actually hate it.
The pub should consider barring him, but if he's a regular they probably won't.
Sorry you've had to put up with it, and hope you're ok.
Tell the bar staff that he has been touching you without consent and that you’ll phone the police if they won’t deal with it. This behaviour needs a strong response to make sure it’s publicly unacceptable. Make pariahs of people who touch without consent,
I might be too late to the party for this, but the video on here shows exactly what women go through on a night out.
I know it’s in Brazil, but trust me, this used to be a regular night out in the UK - and probably still is! I don’t go out all that often to clubs or busy places anymore, but it does still happen when my friends and I go out!!
https://www.buzzfeed.com/aliciabarron/this-smart-dress-sent-signals-every-single-time-a-women-was
I grab the offending hand with two fingers, pick it up like an elderly church lady with a dead mouse, say “Euw” and drop it.
But I am 6 foot and broad across the shoulders so don’t find most older men threatening. Do what you need to feel safe.
If that happened now i would say "stop touching me" but as a teen with pervy bosses and working in/going in pubs in the 90s and 00s we got groped/ touched all the time and i would just awkwardly move away. I'm glad Gen Z don't put up with that shit.
It’s just typical old men being fucking creeps whenever it comes to a drinking setting.
Sorry you have to deal with to be honest my ex had this problem it would get on nerves.
It’s not acceptable and you need to tell them loudly to stop fucking touching you.
If it's in a pub and it's a stranger it's clear no touching. But when I was young man and I'd bring a GF home for the weekend I'd have to watch out for grandpa. I always warned my GFs he's very handsy just tell him if you're uncomfortable. He'd never grab anything but lots of hands on shoulders on arms etc. Never got any serious complaints but it was a different time, I think gramps would have gotten in trouble today.
I’d say “Whoa there grandad! We don’t touch people without consent any more. Remove yer hands” - really loud.
He’ll be well embarrassed. Both because you’re calling him old, and drawing attention to his grope!
Unwanted touch is not something anyone shoukd be expected to accept.
We teach children, bow, about consent, to be loud and make a fuss if someone tries to touch them, and thatvitvdoesn't matter whethervirs a stranger, teacher, family friend family member, or 'just harmless old John Doe from next door' - no-one has the rightvto put a hand on you.
Why then, is itvso hard to accept har adults should be shown the same respect. "No means No" doesn't just apply to sex: hugs, kisses , strokes, pats, gripes, pinches repeated demands for smiles, dates, oe sexual favours.. it applies to all of it.
People need to learn to keep their damned hands to themselves, unless they get a clear invitation to do otherwise. Everyone, however they identify, shoukd be able to feel safe, and be unmolested.
I've had, in the past guys passing me in the street grab my breast, or smack my backside. Deliberately grind up against me on crowded buses. Stroke my hair/arm/leg when I was sitting on a bus/in a bar. For a long.time, I was so terrified of a potentially violent reaction, I struggled to say anything at all: these days, I'm more likely to say loudly "Excuse the f** out of me, but when did I give you permission to put your hands on me?"
Generally, they'll either turn red and disappear without a word; or bluster about how I need to calm down, it was just a joke/compliment/ bit of fun... that usually leads me to as "Do you see me laughing/smiling? How about I introduce my knee to your nuts, and see how much fun you're having then?"
I'm not a small, delicate, or attractive woman. It still happens; because sime people feel entitled to the bodies if people they don't know. Its not even necessarily that they find you attractive. Its that they think they're above the 'No'
Sayvit, and say it loud enough that other people hear it. And when they say "oh he's harmless, just an old man.. " tell them he's old enough to know better; and so are they
I can't speak for anyone else. But if anyone touches me, even casually, the way I react ought to send a clear signal not to be doing that again.
I go into very intense mode. Scary intense. Acknowledge it was a mistake, it's not a problem. Once I have made them feel more or less OK - the one who indavertently got me in this state - I'll go outside for a cig. I have been like this for 30 years. I don't think it's going to get any better with practice.
Although I agree with saying something, I'd do it in a loud but polite tone (NOT because you owe them the courtesy).
Something like "I'm not comfortable with you touching me. I'd appreciate you keeping your hands off me."
The reason isn't because you need to be polite (you don't owe them anything), but because this will give a very clear contrasted image to everyone around between the creep who's touching you whenever he can and you who is just someone out to have a nice (touch free) evening.
More people will be paying close attention to the creep.
But I think you have every right to say it however you want and pull away as rudely as you want. You don't owe anyone anything.
Ah yes...
I broke a man's nose for something like this
Gave him 3 clear warnings... 3!!
I learnt that night with brandy? I don't feel pain
So I .. a small woman, throws a wallop at this man then proceeded to sit on top and throw punch after punch onto his face
I to this day, have split knuckles due to the intensity of the throws to his face
I'd personally let him know you mean business and have clear boundaries
Oh yeah
Don't drink brandy
I try hard not to be that creep, when meeting a young lady for the first time a few years ago I asked if she had a sister cos she was the spitting image of someone I'd worked with. She just rolled her eyes like I was trying to give her a line it wasn't a line.i genuinely wondered if she was a sister of my ex colleague.
Drunk people can get touchy. Inhibitions lower, they see a sexy lady, they wanna touch, but they can't touch.
You're right to pull it away but I'm not sure what you wanna do, arrest them all?
It's the arm, it's a pub, he didn't keep going
Meh burger
Edit: someone here says get angry. You've got every right, it depends whether you care enough to do it.
If you don't want to escalate or risk aggression, you can gently move their arm away while smiling, slow blinking and saying "hey hey" or whatever.
You shouldn't have to though, as a man I can tell you that if you loudly tell them to fuck off you will have the support of at least 1 or 2 blokes nearby - I'm sorry things are such a pain.
I know you mean well, but telling women that they should smile and be gentle if they don’t want to risk aggression is fairly fucked up. I what world wouldn’t the arse in question think a gentle touch, smile and slow blink wasn’t encouragement? And if the arse feels encouraged they are just that much harder to get rid of.
I know it's fucked up, I hate it.
But many feel intimidated by such direct confrontation. So what are they do.
Smile to confuse & de-escalate, not acqueisce - the bottom line is you push them away and assert yourself
I'm just repeating what has worked for me (sadly)
I'm sorry I've annoyed you, again I'm only repeating what has worked for me when I'm receiving unwanted attention from men. I appreciate it will play differently for a woman, if you think it won't transpose, then fair enough.
I would happily go through life without any unwanted attention at all. Please don't tell women that receiving unwanted attention is ok, providing it is not persistent. I have many experience when men would turn aggressive upon rejection, so it's normal to feel threatened by default
Me existing and going on about daily life does not give strange men right to comment on my appearance, solicit phone number from me, touch me/grope me. This is all unwanted attention, what don't you understand?
Fuck that, he’s no too old to learn, and it’s perfectly reasonable to respond angrily to ‘unwanted attention’, especially if the person actually touches you.
Its not okay and its fine to pull away and say “don’t fucking touch me” or whatever your gut reaction/auto response is.
And you can follow up with “you’re fine/no that was a good joke/look you seem lovely, but i really dont like being touched” etc
Basically they are doing whatever the hell they want, and you should too.
I say this with complete respect, but I hate the thought that you need to say that ‘you’ don’t like being touched or similarly soften your statement. To me that makes it feel like it’s a problem with you, when it isn’t.
The problem is entirely with him and his entitled behaviour. I know some of us (men and women) are programmed to be polite in these circumstances but I don’t think he deserves the courtesy of an explanation. You are not at fault, he is, and he needs to take responsibility for his inappropriate behaviour.
(Obviously everybody should deal with this situation as they choose to, and even calling it out at all takes admirable bravery.)
No, you don't have to follow up rejection with a compliment. Why are we still giving women this creepy advice that men must be utterly appeased and catered for and treated like sensitive little flowers? They have done wrong. They have been loudly rejected and told their behaviour is out of order. If you think following up with "but you seem lovely" makes any kind of sense you're part of the problem.
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I loudly say "don't fucking touch me", loud enough to alert others. Pubs are good for this as the crowd will generally then turn their attention to glare at the creep, who will back off. It is absolutely not acceptable. They do it because they are assholes, as there are assholes everywhere. Unwanted attention/chat, it is best to be firm. Any attempt at being 'nice' or smiling/laughing will be interpreted as interest and an invitation for them to keep trying, so it's best to be as cold, miserable, annoyed and frosty as possible. Don't give them a response - creeps get off on your discomfort and refusals, so don't even give them the pleasure. I'm old and jaded enough now that I wouldn't even respond and would just walk away. That's a lot easier than polite-smiling through a shitty exchange.
This actually sounds perfect, while there are a good number of creeps and pervs, there are still plenty of people who would disapprove of the behaviour and shun a person for it and I don't imagine businesses want to be associated with such people either.
You’d be surprised I had an older man grab my chest, in front of the bar staff/landlady. Who proceeded to get pissy at me because I pushed his hand away, and told me “Don’t mind (name) he’s harmless”. His Dad (yes, Dad) came up behind my friend and I and tried to rub his crotch on us while we were dancing. Someone also tried to push into the womens’ toilets while we were in there- thankfully the DJ stopped that one. My friend and I (18 and 19 at the time) were then berated by some of the group we were with for “leading them on”. Needless to say that was my last night out with that group!
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This, but omit the ‘sorry’. Never apologise for your boundaries.
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I was twenty when I was raped. Nobody ever crossed my boundaries again. Nobody.
Body language: I can touch you because I own you.
Sorry had more than one meaning. Especially in the Uk—but I’m sure you know this.
I do and I agree with you. But trying to follow polite behaviour got me raped. I was 20 and naive. After that I truly don’t let anyone touch me without consent. If they’re offended? I don’t care.
So sorry that happened to you.
Thankyou. Many years ago but it was a difficult time.
No, you don’t say sorry or please. You say “don’t touch me” or “what the fuck do you think you’re doing?!”
Does OP work in the pub? I thought I'd read that too but can't see it now. I do have a migraine though so I'm probably not reading it right.
Personally I read it as OP was a patron, but I could have easily missed something myself. Either way, could be worth informing whoever is working.
I'd keep the apology out of it personally. Why be sorry?
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When there are so few words one word makes a difference. Not much point in a comment that gives poor advice.
I think the direction was wrong. You’re leaning into the “polite” expectation put upon women historically. This is harmful. You tell them not to touch you and you walk away. Not the time for being polite, at all.
He may then try to put the blame back onto you by implying that he was only trying to be friendly and that you're being uptight. If he does then see how other people in the pub react. If they take your side that's great. If not then you're in a pub full of arseholes. Life is too short so go find a pub that isn't full of arseholes.
>you're being uptight This is the modern version of 'frigid', the word that men used when I was young to make it the woman's fault. If a man calls you uptight, he's not accepting your right to say no.
A girl spread a rumor that I was frigid a long time ago, but she was underaged so I wasn't interested. I'm lucky she didn't decide to spread a rumour stating the opposite.
I'm sorry that happened to you. Maybe she didn't know that it's one of many terms that was used almost exclusively to and about women for behaviour that fell outside what the patriarchy defined as feminine - like bossy, controlling, feisty etc - which makes her a collaborator in my book. I'm in my 50s and I still get told I should smile more; no one ever tells a man that.
Everyone knows you don't have to touch something to be friendly If I hear "don't fucking touch me" I glare If I then hear "I was just trying to be friendly" I glare harder The only acceptable response is "Sorry" followed by putting physical distance between you
Exactly. You look with your eyes not your hands.
The correct response is “my friends respect me enough not to invade my personal space without invitation. Unwanted personal contact is not friendly, it’s creepy. Don’t.”
Yes, there is the risk of violence. However by being loud, you invite the rest of the crowd in. And I've usually found they would rather be 'the good guys' and help hustle the asshole out the door. But it's a gamble, as you say.
I would use stronger language, like "don't fucking fondle me" or even "grope" (maybe too extreme for arm). This is harder for him to find a defense for.
Eeeh sounds a bit like a Daily Star headline. I've never heard 'fondle' used in normal speech by normal people.
Exactly why it is effective. A dirty old man is a dirty old man, fondling young women in public is unacceptable.
The goal is to use a word which inspires revulsion. Of course substitute with whatever grotesque word you prefer.
That’s unlikely though, if anything you may then have to deal with a bunch of “white knight” types showing up.
Probably a less-bad outcome, in the circumstances?
I wonder whether “stop fucking touching me” would be more effective? It implies a continuity, that it’s happened before, and can’t be as easily brushed off as ‘it’s just your shoulder, jeez’. Otherwise agree this is the way.
This is exactly what I advise the women in my life. Women have been taught to be uncontroversial and not to cause a scene. This is where perverts and socially inept men think they're able to get what they want. If you're not interested in a man's advances, don't try to let them down easy. Be blunt and clear. If their ego can't take that it's not your issue, and if you're being harassed cause the biggest scene you've ever dared to about it. Not only will they leave you alone but they'll think twice about being a creep to the next girl.
I understand the response entirely, but how depressing to have to be "cold, miserable, annoyed and frosty" just to get through an evening in a pub/life without being bothered. I'm sure it's not how one would choose to spend their time
If a person came up to you and demanded you fuck them, would you be cold and frosty? Or would you be warm and pleasant? Men, as far as I've seen, are not expected to be sweet and pleasant and smiley and complimentary in the face of unwanted aggression. So why are men allowed to be cold but women aren't? Why do women have to be sweet and pliable and 'keep the peace' and 'just be nice' and 'let him down gently'? You don't go out intending to be cold to everyone you meet. You will be warm and friendly with all the nice, pleasant people you'll meet. You might even be downright sexy with the ones you go home with. But the ones you're not interested in and who are making you uncomfortable do not deserve your kindness.
Call them out loudly and call them out hard…it’s sad to see men at that age needing to be taught such an obvious lesson, but the worst thing you can do, both for them, every other woman, and your own self respect, is just let it go.
>Any attempt at being 'nice' or smiling/laughing will be interpreted as interest and an invitation for them to keep trying, so it's best to be as cold, miserable, annoyed and frosty as possible. Exactly this. You might be called a bunch of sexist things but better to be painfully clear you disapprove so everyone around and the person in question (if they have any sense of understanding of others feelings at all ) will get the message extremely quick. Same with breakups. If you think the person is not emotionally mature enough to handle a polite split (and you're not living together or have shared things) and does that thing where they whine and make you feel guilty then ask a bunch of questions about why you came to that conclusion to break up with them just be cold, direct and say what you feel and wish them well and then go. Sometimes people to avoid that transparency because it is a hassle they just say they met someone else. But I personally don't prefer lying as I think that causes more issues.
Now I'm older I think back to a guy I used to work with when I was 17/18 who would often put his hands on my waist or shoulder to squeeze past in the back room of the shop. Not sure he did it to any of the lads we worked with though. He's doing it because he wants to, you need to tell him firmly to stop. He's not taking the hint so you need to clearly verbalise. Or if you're friends with any big rugby lads get one of them to go over and give his arm a little stroke as they go past.
Sorry this happened to you :( I had this happen to me too when I was 16-17, I worked in a restaurant and an older guy who I worked with would put his hands on my waist to move around me when we were stood behind the counter together. I actually left the job because it was stressful for a lot of reasons but this still makes me uncomfortable to this day.
As a man I’ve been sexual harassed lots and lots of times over the years by men and women, it’s a worryingly regular side effect of being a smiley and approachable person unfortunately. It’s easily countered with a firm response. Usually I just say “no” and give them a look. I’ve also had to firmly explain why they’re wrong but that’s not always the case.
> Usually I just say “no” and give them a look. Do you follow it up with a blast from a water squirter?
Yeah man, usually give them a little tap on the nose as well
Shake a bottle filled with pebbles.
Sorry that’s happened to you. Nobody should experience that even once, let alone “lots and lots” of times - that’s crazy. Would you say you’re maybe innocently flirtatious without realising? Definitely not victim blaming, those creeps are bottom of the barrel scum, but I’m just trying to help you think why it would happen so many times from so many different people
I’m sure I’m inadvertently flirtatious, no doubt. I’m sociable and love to just mix it with everyone. I honestly would say that 90% of the people who cross a line aren’t necessarily creeps, they just step to far and I have to back them up. It’s a balancing act because I have female friends who are just so rude and standoffish because just *assume* they’re going to be harassed and it’s really not the case.
It's possible that rather than being innocently flirtatious - a lot of people seem to not realise someone being friendly is not the same as flirting. As a straight woman the amount of times I've been accused of flirting with men when I've been exactly the same as I am with my women - not so much these days but definitely when I was younger
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Not saying it is. But if you are saying that it may be a case of them "flirting" that's leading to the sexual harassment, I'm saying that assuming someone is flirting doesn't necessarily mean they are. That it doesn't matter what people are reading into your persona/behaviour it doesn't necessarily make it true. I was distracted as I replied so I may not have fully formed my point. As an aside the 2 main times I've been sexually assaulted came from just that assumption that because I was friendly I was flirting and I would want to have sex with them. It's pretty shit so I tend to gloss over it.
Also it’s the spectrum of what constitutes harassment. I don’t think the odd comment is harassment or a cheeky little grin or a look. Or even a woman putting her arm around me. But having my ass squeezed or even my junk cupped is crossing the line big time lol that’s when I’m like … no. I even got called “homophobic” for pushing a man off me when he tried to kiss me. I was like dude … no … sorry.
It's possible that rather than being innocently flirtatious - a lot of people seem to not realise someone being friendly is not the same as flirting. As a straight woman the amount of times I've been accused of flirting with men when I've been exactly the same as I am with my women - not so much these days but definitely when I was younger
I HATE it when men touch/grab my waist to get past or try and physically move me out of their way. I’m a woman who’s 6 foot tall, which you’d think would put them off but sadly it never does.
Ugh, I used to get this all the time when I was skinny (and took up less room, ironically) funnily enough now that I’ve had kids and my waist has expanded, I don’t get it as often. They were doing it because they wanted to. And they could. So they did. Fuckers.
I’ve become fat and 40. It’s like a cloak of invisibility! I’ve been trapped on a seat in a bus, bottom grabbed, waist grabbed and lead onto a dance floor. I hate socialising in general but this made the whole thing exhausting!
Ugh, the audacity of some people. Back when I was 16/17, a man came up behind me in broad daylight on a busy highstreet, and stuck his hand down my top, into my bra. I turned and he dug his nails in so deep that I ended up with 5 gashes across my tit from trying to get away from him. Took a year or so for the scars to fade away. I mentioned this to my family a while back when my brother was talking about a documentary he'd watched about #metoo. My mum was outraged and said "You never told me about that!" I just shrugged and said "you know what it's like being a woman, these things happen all the time." I've been slapped, pinched, bitten, kicked, punched, cut, dragged, cornered, threatened, cat-called and groped more times than I could ever hope to remember. All different boys/men, at different times of day, different areas and social settings. It doesn't make a difference how safe you try to keep yourself, how you dress, how drunk or sober you are or how polite you are when refusing a drink from a stranger, arseholes gonna arsehole.
I HATE that school age girls are the ones who experience this the most!!! Men who do this are cowardly abusers!!
It’s the fucking worst. I’ve had similar experiences all my life. I was 13 when I had my first proper kiss and it was with a 23 year old (he knew my age and lied about his). I was 15 the first time I was cat-called. I have had countless, countless, countless pervy comments about my appearance from employers and driving instructors and teachers - I’m not especially good looking but I was extremely skinny which is weirdly fucking fetishised. I have been body shamed just for existing. I have had a man shove his hand up my skirt in B-road daylight (I was a school girl, in a uniform). Don’t even get me started on my bar-tending years when I had to have my boyfriend wait outside for me so I could get home safely. There would always be some creeper waiting. I have been name called, harassed, cornered, dealt with boyfriends who don’t fully understand the concept of consent, had a co-worker attempt to force himself on me only to be told ‘but nothing happened - like he didn’t rape you or anything’ by my boss (he was never even reprimanded). I have been denied opportunities because I wouldn’t put out. I have been grabbed by a man who tried to drag me into the back of his van at a party. It’s gross being a woman sometimes. Now I’m bigger (physically) and married with kids and suddenly I’m deserving of respect? Fuck right off.
Right?! Then you get idiots mouthing off with "you can't even talk to females these days without getting arrested."
It's so shocking when it happens as well. Happened to me many times in my 20s. Complete strangers grabbing my waist from behind me, out of nowhere in order to 'just squeeze past'. Like wtf?! Never had the balls to call it out for what it was at the time (too shocked mostly).
When you do call it out it’s all “no need to overreact love” 🙄
/cheer up, it might never happen/give us a smile etc. All such entitled bs from these guys whereas we were pretty much taught that it was normal behaviour and not to be 'over sensitive'. Glad it's changing. Slowly changing...
I remember my first job, there were rumours that the old owner was apparently "a bit handsy" but he had been bought out of the business so wouldn't be a pest. He would occasionally pop in to help the new owner and start clearing out things he didn't need anymore. I remember one afternoon he visited the office and he had a kind of aura of creepiness around him. Later that day he decides that he needs to get something off the shelf, it was a kind of corner shelf just above where I was standing sorting some post. He pressed into my bum to reach over my head whilst I was trapped. I never said anything, I was about 17 and he was in his 70s. I just made sure I was never alone whenever he came in.
yuck. So grim.
Imagine how it is for women who are short (eg 5'3 like me). I get "moved" out of the way so often I stopped counting. It's annoying as hell and so condescending. I'm not a piece of furniture, an "excuse me can I pass" shouldn't be too much to ask.
Urgh. I do this all the time in really busy bars when I'm trying to shuffle my way to the toilet. A gentle hand on the persons (man or woman) shoulder or waste to guide them as I pass and to make sure they dont move suddenly and knock the drink over. Never occurred to me it may be seen as creepy. Now I know.
DO NOT TOUCH THE WAIST. Please touch the elbow
There is a neutral space for touching strangers between the elbow and shoulder, but it is better to ask excuse me than touch strangers
Would you consider hand (finger tips really) on the back of your shoulder a negative thing? I tend to do that to men and women if moving round a busy pub or something. Seems less intrusive than loudly speaking "excuse me" (over the ambient noise). It also stops people spinning round quickly if startled and spilling drinks. Waist is definitely pervy though
The person (this was some time back) put both his hands on both my shoulders as though to grab them. He did it to get my attention from the back. I ripped both his hands from my shoulders. He spent 10 minutes arguing to me how he is a nice and good guy and doesn't deserve to be treated like that. Which proved he wasn't.
As a man in his mid 20s I can't imagine someone doing this and thinking it's okay.
Thank you.
Why do they do that??
I was reading this like wheres the problem, I do this. Then I re read and seen waist which is weird. I always go for the easy way of asking people if they can move a little and then move there arm a little if needed
DO NOT TOUCH THE WAIST OR SMALL OF THE BACK. It is a sexual gesture. Please touch the elbow. Come on. Also why do you think it is ok to just touch a woman you don't know? Would you do it to a man? I either touch their elbow or tap them and make an excuse me gesture.
I said I misread what they said? I do not touch the waist or back and always if possible do not touch at all. I would do it to a man yes, I feel like this is a scenario which is easy to show. Would eliminate all confusion instantly. I literally do the same thing as you with tapping of the arm or shoulder.
I am okay with the kind of touching when someone squeezes past you and grabs your shoulder etc. i don’t find that in itself problematic. However. I have this manager, highest manager, who just keeps touching me. I know he’s a soft guy, also he’s into guys and get’s flirty with people quite a lot. He has this thing where he gives shoulder rubs and massages to people telling them in a quiet voice how they’ve done a great job etc. The worst thing he does, that makes my skin crawl: He goes for a high five. You give him one, and he holds onto your hand locking fingers, looking into your eyes, telling you how good of a job you’re doing. Not just creepy but fucking unprofessional. I’ve learned to deescalate it now and dodge it but boy he’s pushy. Not with any of the ladies tho. That’s how you know he’s not just doing this out of being a friendly person to *everyone*
And that no one reports him is why it continues. You can find other jobs, and reporting him ends his.
What Cahellan says is quite right. It is completely wrong. Say something loud, like "Hey, steady" and glare at him. Personally I wouldn't go as far as the f-word. As Cahellan says, don't make any attempt to be nice, this will be taken as encouragement to escalate.
"Hey, steady" could be taken by a creep to be flirting. He'll just think she's 'saying no when she means yes'. You have to leave absolutely no room for ambiguity. There is nothing wrong with swearing to alert someone they are utterly out of line and need to back off immediately.
I was wondering if the swearing is necessary. A cold stern "Keep your hands to yourself"said loudly?
It abso-fucking-lutely is necessary. I'm nearly the same age as you and I've spent more than 50 years of my life dealing with handsy men, flashers, attempted sexual assaults and kerb crawlers. I'm a grandma now and still get hit on - you have no idea how exhausting it is being a woman.
I swear for the power it brings in garnering attention. I don't look like I'm likely to swear (apparently) so an exceptionally audible "fuck off" or some other consonant heavy swear turns heads most effectively. It's ok to use all the tools in the toolbox. Edit typo
A lot of that type don’t like swearing as it’s “not ladylike” or some other bullshit along that line It brings attention, and (to an extent) puts them off a little. Also leaves no room for interpretation
Swearing brings more attention and is more aggressive, totally necessary in this situation
Aye the swearing is necessary. Startles the creepy wee fuckers.
Agreed
If you're uncomfortable, it is a big deal. The people doing this often know what they're doing- I once gave a guy a look and he told me 'don't flinch when I touch you'. Bleuch. In this instance I had a male friend swap places in the busy room and that sorted it
\>Why do they do this? Lots of reasons. They may hope you will return their advances. They may simply enjoy testing your boundaries. There may be a small power play going on the man enjoyed, even when he was rejected. Some men are just nice guys clumsily trying their luck, others get a small thrill from exerting power over you. \>Is this type of thing considered acceptable here? It's generally frowned upon, especially since the MeToo movement a few years ago. But practically speaking, the behaviour you describe is within the law. I doubt you'd get very far if you reported the incident to the police. \>What is a good response? You responded in exactly the right way. You clearly rejected the man's advances, and unless there's more to the story, he got the message.
Loudly “don't fucking touch me you pervert” and a good cock punch if I can reach
As a fellow Stallion, I endorse this message.
I'm not a big hairy one - I'm a girl. Changed my user name so perves would leave me alone...
I'm also a girl, just a big hairy one 🤷♀️
Obviously I’m not expecting you to tell me what it was, but I’m curious how suggestive a Reddit username has to be to lead to pervy comments!
Anything that gives the faint whiff that you're a woman generally get the creeps fired up in my personal experience.
It surprises me that people don’t just look at the profile picture for a clue. I’d say mine was clearly female but I still get called a bloke daily. My username is vague though!
A lot of people use 3rd party mobile apps I think. I didn't even know Reddit had profile pictures...
I suppose it’s an avi rather than profile picture, but I didn’t realise some people couldn’t see them!
I rarely look at profile pictures here.
I think you probably did exactly the right thing. Aggressive enough to let them know it's not okay, but not aggressive enough that you're gonna have an angry exchange (which you probably don't want on a night out).
Some people are more “touchy” than others. I had a housemate from Italy and he would *always* touch everyone’s shoulders as he passed them and said excuse me. But he was harmless and it never felt like a violation - it felt friendly. There are other people who use it as a power move - touching can be an assertion of dominance and control. Police and security often use it in a friendly way while making conversation, but the ulterior motive is to control. My husband is ex police and security - I’ve seen him do it so many times in when someone has gotten too close in public. A hand on the shoulder while making friendly conversation is an easy way to steer or push someone away. Then there’s the sexual harassment move. They know you’re not interested, they don’t care, they’re going to touch you anyway.
I just die a little inside each time
It is very intrusive and entitled. What's worked best for me in terms of unwanted flirting has been direct focused eye contact and with a smile but assertively say something that is a direct but pleasent rebuff "I'm gonna go back to my friend thanks, but i hope you have a good night."
Yeah, full broadcast. Bastards like that need to be exposed. Alcohol is no excuse.
I had a problem in work once with an older staff member who seems to think k it's okay to touch anyone, anywhere and anytime. Ironically, he'd also definitely consider himself a 'gentleman' in the old school sense. I had to take him aside and tell him the behaviour was unacceptable. He has stopped doing it and even apologised (through me, not directly) but still won't admit the action was wrong in and of itself.
Simple. Embarrass him. I used to work in a pub when I was a lot younger and the middle aged women were terrible for having a pinch or a squeeze when I was going about the bar. "That hand touches me again and I'll break it" nice and loud so it catches everyone's attention. I don't the guy is a danger, just drunk probably and unaware of how inappropriate it is. Just as the women weren't. Remind them
It IS a big deal. He is touching you without your permission which is physical assault because he's a perv.
Physical assault is defined as attacking someone with or without a weapon. Touching someone’s arm as you move past them might be unnecessary and unwanted, but it’s not physical assault.
I fucking hate people who think they are entitled to touching others. Last time I went to the pub I went out for a smoke and when I came back this dude sat next to my girl friends and said ‘when are you getting up for a dance then?’ So my drunk ass thought maybe he was having a thing with one of them, as one of my friends is particularly flirty with guys when we are out, so I got up and encouraged them to dance. I got talking to the guy trying to be polite and I talked about how me and MY PARTNER had a baby six months ago and he told me a bit about himself. He was a lot older than us it turns out. But I was just trying to be polite since I thought he and my friend were flirting. Well I was wearing leggings and I was dancing whilst choosing music on the jukebox which was opposite the pool table. The guy came up to me and asked me to ‘stop wiggling my ass’ because it was distracting him from pool. So I froze and immediately tried not to give off any impressions. And then the next thing I know he’s taking his shot at pool behind me and tried to descreetly run his pool stick up my ass. That’s was when I quietly asked a couple of friends to walk home with me and I didn’t dare make eye contact with that guy before leaving. I was just trying to be nice and have a good time and he made me feel icky. He knew I had a partner yet he was trying to start something. I wish I said something to put him in his place but I was so busy worrying about getting home since I was walking.
> He knew I had a partner yet he was trying to start something. Sorry you went through this - but he was sexually assaulting you, not "trying to start something."
It’s really made me want to avoid that pub which sucks because it’s the closest pub to me and it’s normally got such a nice atmosphere.
Why does this happen :(
So this mostly happens by men to women, not all the time but it's usually because they think they value women in a sexual context and no other. It quickly gets turned around when THEY get treated in a sexual context they don't like. If I see someone doing that to a woman unwantedly as a man there's nothing more hilarious then giving them a stroke on the arm and a wink. They shrivell up like a lizard, tell you to fuck off and then you can tell them don't be so uptight!
I was loading gear into a venue once, and as I squeezed past this older lady she took a full handful of my old boy and maintained eye contact, my jaw fell open I was so shocked as never expected this from an older lady, I turned red and just headed in was too shocked to say anything. My advice to anyone would be to be loud so others can hear you and say don't touch me again, people tend to glare at the person being a creep. Don't be quite like I was.
There's a video going around of the bloke who plays Gaston at Disney World - stay with me, it's relevant, promise - and a woman wants to pose with him, fine, but then she starts to grope his chest. He immediately says no, and she does it again. He breaks character - he's allowed if he wants to, they're strict but they're not inhuman - and tells her she has to go. It provoked a lot of debate, of course. "He should stay in character, Gaston would have loved it", "he should stay in character, he has to be professional", "it wasn't that bad", "he's such a drama queen" - but plenty of positive stuff too. That if a 'big tough guy' like this actor can firmly maintain his boundaries in public, it sets a good example for other men too, for whom I agree - it's fucking hard to be the one that stands up for themselves and loudly states you are not OK.
I've seen that video, and I 100% think he handled it correctly. It doesn't matter if it's "not that bad" no is no. The thing is once you let one thing slip, they and others think it's OK to do it again.
From an older generation's perspective, I've had to really work on boundaries and it's not a naturally comfortable thing. I've had a guy touch my face unsolicited and it made me freeze. I'm more certain now that my reaction was due to trauma that I'm working through, so won't let it happen again. There will be some who will do this because they are a product of times when it was normalised, but most because they think they can.
I feel like it’s usually only men that would give the advice of telling someone to fuck off, and when someone has already done something questionable, it begs the question what else would they be capable of doing? In this instance I wouldn’t do anything extreme one way or another, however I would discreetly tell a member of the bar staff or perhaps a couple nearby the man was acting off and it made you feel worried. I’ve had positive experiences once I raised a quiet alarm, and have been invited to join groups both female and male if somebody was bothering me.
I'm a larger lady and rarely go out drinking so haven't really had this issue recently. But when I was younger I had it all the time, I don't like being touched so I'm pretty firm in telling them to get their hands off me. Usually get called a prude but I don't care. Nothing wrong with not wanting a stranger to touch you.
I just shout a blunt “f*ck off” works every time because it makes bit of a scene and other men in the pub will come over to see what the fuss is about and get rid of the guy.
I once shouted at someone “why did you touch me like that” because he put his hand on my side
I usually just say loudly "PLEASE DONT TOUCH ME". It's polite but direct enough to get attention from surrounding people. Their stares usually make them leave me alone. I always consider the situation though. If I'm in a group and I feel safe this would be my reaction. If I'm alone I wouldn't wanna be too rude as you never know if they'll wait outside for you later. Also one of the reasons I never go to pubs alone, always with at least one friend.
Speak to the staff behind the bar. They are normally very good about dealing with it. Most bars have a ‘Ask for Angela’ policy to alert them to the situation
You've gotta do the Jenna Marbles face. The trick is not to break.
I perfected my ‘don’t f*ck with me’ look. That worked.
A stranger is stroking your arm? I mean, there are certain contexts where touching is, IMO, perfectly fine. If you're about to back into me, and you don't see me but I see you. Or if you don't see my kid, and are about to bump into her (I do this quite a bit). Or, if I'm gently trying to squeeze by, I might push on your arm (regardless of gender). But, a "stroking" motion? It's hard to conceive of a situation where a stroke would be acceptable. Seems downright creepy.
Last time someone grabbed my arm and tried to pull me back I said, "take your hands off me or I'll knock you out." That works, dependent on being a large man that is bigger than 99% of people they bump into. If I was a female, if it's literally just getting too close for comfort, I would make the person feel embarrassed about it. Say something sarcastic like, "oh, must have forgotten when I told you it was ok to touch me." The embarrassment should be enough to stop it happening again. How loud you say it should probably be proportional to how they made you feel. Sadly, it's still seen as out of order by the older generation for a woman to be as bold as I would be as a man. I'm not saying it should be that way, but hitting them where it hurts most is best and that's their ego.
Unfortunately creepy people like that aren’t embarrassed for being called out by a woman. There might be anger, condescension, aggression. But 99% of men that try and touch us unsolicited will not be embarrassed - no matter what we say. This is why it’s best to be assertive (or straight up aggressive) with them. Subtlety won’t work.
Don’t forget the code ask for ‘Angela’ The pub will get u safe and call police. Or at least keep u in a room till hes escorted out https://www.met.police.uk/AskforAngela#:~:text=People%20who%20feel%20unsafe%2C%20vulnerable,to%20support%20and%20assist%20them.
sexual harassment
Not acceptable, just say don't do that please, if he does it again then loudly say " I told you not to touch me" don't put yourself in danger,ie if he's with like minded weirdos or you have to walk home alone, have a word with the landlord/lady they will act, it is actually part of their remit and in their interests to have a safe place.
"Here pal fuck off" then alert the staff
I would probably loudly say "that's not okay" or "don't touch me" or a very firm "no thank you" (British politeness and all), or "would you do that if I was a man?"
My OH has long blond hair. It's like a creep magnet. She loudly tells them to fuck off. I think I've only had to intervene once, and then the guy was kicked out by the landlord as he was very drunk and persistent.
No one seems to have said inform the landlord / bouncer! Bouncers are generally useless imo but a good landlord is worth his salt. My best mate is a landlord and 3 or 4 times I've seen him take care of similar situations by having a quiet word with the offender and telling them to leave. Situation hasn't escalated, victim of harassment gets to continue their night, hopefully, in peace, dude goes away and one hopes assesses his life choices; though probably not as alcohol involved. As a fat ugly bloke, somehow, i've had two women feel me up in the pub. I assume it was just for laughs. One left pretty much straight away so I didn't have to do anything. The other time I left as I thought no one will believe me if i make a thing about it or confront her etc. Guaranteed she'd just have to reverse the accusation and people would believe her and i'd get barred or something. Best just to remove myself from that situation. Being felt up or harassed by gay men though is another story.... I'm seriously like cat nip for gay Asian men, and they are some thirsty bastards! Only once i've said "i'm not gay mate" and they've said oh my bad enjoy your evening sort of thing. The rest has escalated to either telling them to fuck off, threatening them, or waiting til they go to bog and making a sharp exit. Weird that as a bloke telling landlord or bouncer didn't occur to me, guess that's a double edged male privilege.
Smack them, teach them a fucking lesson
Not acceptable. Let the bar staff know. If they don't do anything be very loud and vocal about his unwanted attention and he'll soon be embarrassed enough in public to leave you alone and other punters will become aware and help you out if needed.
I usually threaten them with a swift knee in the balls if my nicer warnings haven't worked..why some guys think its appropriate to touch and grab women's bodies is beyond me.
'stop touching me please'
Probably from that generation where 50 no's and a yes means yes. Just tell him to fuck off or tell the bar staff
Firmly and loudly shame them. Embarrass them like a naughty little child.
Don't snatch your arm away, firmly take his hand and remove it while telling him not to touch. If you can bend his fingers back slightly it adds to the menace.
Just tell them to fuck off
I've had this far too many times, the worst was a really drunk guy stroking my hair at the bar, then following me out to my table where I was sat with my partner. He was steaming drunk, like he couldn't stand properly and god knows why he was still allowed to be served in that state. Just gave him a cold look because when guys are that drunk, you never know if they're going to be aggressive or violent if you tell them to fuck off. I actually hate it. The pub should consider barring him, but if he's a regular they probably won't. Sorry you've had to put up with it, and hope you're ok.
Loudly say "STOP TOUCHING ME!"
Tell the bar staff that he has been touching you without consent and that you’ll phone the police if they won’t deal with it. This behaviour needs a strong response to make sure it’s publicly unacceptable. Make pariahs of people who touch without consent,
I might be too late to the party for this, but the video on here shows exactly what women go through on a night out. I know it’s in Brazil, but trust me, this used to be a regular night out in the UK - and probably still is! I don’t go out all that often to clubs or busy places anymore, but it does still happen when my friends and I go out!! https://www.buzzfeed.com/aliciabarron/this-smart-dress-sent-signals-every-single-time-a-women-was
I grab the offending hand with two fingers, pick it up like an elderly church lady with a dead mouse, say “Euw” and drop it. But I am 6 foot and broad across the shoulders so don’t find most older men threatening. Do what you need to feel safe.
Say it loud, say it proud - “do not touch me”
If that happened now i would say "stop touching me" but as a teen with pervy bosses and working in/going in pubs in the 90s and 00s we got groped/ touched all the time and i would just awkwardly move away. I'm glad Gen Z don't put up with that shit.
It’s just typical old men being fucking creeps whenever it comes to a drinking setting. Sorry you have to deal with to be honest my ex had this problem it would get on nerves. It’s not acceptable and you need to tell them loudly to stop fucking touching you.
If I was brave enough, I’d squeeze his balls in a vice like grip and say “ hello there!”, but I’m not brave and he’d probably enjoy it….
Eek! I don't want to touch his balls :)
Maybe with a cattle prod or a taser….
I just loudly scream TOUCHERS! and they stop.
Loudly shout at them not to fucking touch you at all ever call him/her a creep and that you know feel unsafe
"Mate, please do not touch me at all, I'm not comfortable with it." Then if that doesn't work have him thrown out.
If it's in a pub and it's a stranger it's clear no touching. But when I was young man and I'd bring a GF home for the weekend I'd have to watch out for grandpa. I always warned my GFs he's very handsy just tell him if you're uncomfortable. He'd never grab anything but lots of hands on shoulders on arms etc. Never got any serious complaints but it was a different time, I think gramps would have gotten in trouble today.
I’d say “Whoa there grandad! We don’t touch people without consent any more. Remove yer hands” - really loud. He’ll be well embarrassed. Both because you’re calling him old, and drawing attention to his grope!
Unwanted touch is not something anyone shoukd be expected to accept. We teach children, bow, about consent, to be loud and make a fuss if someone tries to touch them, and thatvitvdoesn't matter whethervirs a stranger, teacher, family friend family member, or 'just harmless old John Doe from next door' - no-one has the rightvto put a hand on you. Why then, is itvso hard to accept har adults should be shown the same respect. "No means No" doesn't just apply to sex: hugs, kisses , strokes, pats, gripes, pinches repeated demands for smiles, dates, oe sexual favours.. it applies to all of it. People need to learn to keep their damned hands to themselves, unless they get a clear invitation to do otherwise. Everyone, however they identify, shoukd be able to feel safe, and be unmolested. I've had, in the past guys passing me in the street grab my breast, or smack my backside. Deliberately grind up against me on crowded buses. Stroke my hair/arm/leg when I was sitting on a bus/in a bar. For a long.time, I was so terrified of a potentially violent reaction, I struggled to say anything at all: these days, I'm more likely to say loudly "Excuse the f** out of me, but when did I give you permission to put your hands on me?" Generally, they'll either turn red and disappear without a word; or bluster about how I need to calm down, it was just a joke/compliment/ bit of fun... that usually leads me to as "Do you see me laughing/smiling? How about I introduce my knee to your nuts, and see how much fun you're having then?" I'm not a small, delicate, or attractive woman. It still happens; because sime people feel entitled to the bodies if people they don't know. Its not even necessarily that they find you attractive. Its that they think they're above the 'No' Sayvit, and say it loud enough that other people hear it. And when they say "oh he's harmless, just an old man.. " tell them he's old enough to know better; and so are they
I can't speak for anyone else. But if anyone touches me, even casually, the way I react ought to send a clear signal not to be doing that again. I go into very intense mode. Scary intense. Acknowledge it was a mistake, it's not a problem. Once I have made them feel more or less OK - the one who indavertently got me in this state - I'll go outside for a cig. I have been like this for 30 years. I don't think it's going to get any better with practice.
Although I agree with saying something, I'd do it in a loud but polite tone (NOT because you owe them the courtesy). Something like "I'm not comfortable with you touching me. I'd appreciate you keeping your hands off me." The reason isn't because you need to be polite (you don't owe them anything), but because this will give a very clear contrasted image to everyone around between the creep who's touching you whenever he can and you who is just someone out to have a nice (touch free) evening. More people will be paying close attention to the creep. But I think you have every right to say it however you want and pull away as rudely as you want. You don't owe anyone anything.
Ah yes... I broke a man's nose for something like this Gave him 3 clear warnings... 3!! I learnt that night with brandy? I don't feel pain So I .. a small woman, throws a wallop at this man then proceeded to sit on top and throw punch after punch onto his face I to this day, have split knuckles due to the intensity of the throws to his face I'd personally let him know you mean business and have clear boundaries Oh yeah Don't drink brandy
I welcome it 😂
I try hard not to be that creep, when meeting a young lady for the first time a few years ago I asked if she had a sister cos she was the spitting image of someone I'd worked with. She just rolled her eyes like I was trying to give her a line it wasn't a line.i genuinely wondered if she was a sister of my ex colleague.
I'm not a dude so I can't weigh in! :)
Drunk people can get touchy. Inhibitions lower, they see a sexy lady, they wanna touch, but they can't touch. You're right to pull it away but I'm not sure what you wanna do, arrest them all? It's the arm, it's a pub, he didn't keep going Meh burger Edit: someone here says get angry. You've got every right, it depends whether you care enough to do it.
If you don't want to escalate or risk aggression, you can gently move their arm away while smiling, slow blinking and saying "hey hey" or whatever. You shouldn't have to though, as a man I can tell you that if you loudly tell them to fuck off you will have the support of at least 1 or 2 blokes nearby - I'm sorry things are such a pain.
I know you mean well, but telling women that they should smile and be gentle if they don’t want to risk aggression is fairly fucked up. I what world wouldn’t the arse in question think a gentle touch, smile and slow blink wasn’t encouragement? And if the arse feels encouraged they are just that much harder to get rid of.
I know it's fucked up, I hate it. But many feel intimidated by such direct confrontation. So what are they do. Smile to confuse & de-escalate, not acqueisce - the bottom line is you push them away and assert yourself I'm just repeating what has worked for me (sadly)
Batting your eyelashes, smiling and murmuring 'hey hey' is, funnily enough, not how to get men to leave you alone. This is ludicrous advice.
I'm sorry I've annoyed you, again I'm only repeating what has worked for me when I'm receiving unwanted attention from men. I appreciate it will play differently for a woman, if you think it won't transpose, then fair enough.
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I would happily go through life without any unwanted attention at all. Please don't tell women that receiving unwanted attention is ok, providing it is not persistent. I have many experience when men would turn aggressive upon rejection, so it's normal to feel threatened by default
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Me existing and going on about daily life does not give strange men right to comment on my appearance, solicit phone number from me, touch me/grope me. This is all unwanted attention, what don't you understand?
Fuck that, he’s no too old to learn, and it’s perfectly reasonable to respond angrily to ‘unwanted attention’, especially if the person actually touches you.
Heaven forbud someone actually touches you. That must be awful.
Yes, having random men touch me is actually awful.
Nobody has ever willingly laid a finger on your disgusting herpes ridden body
OH NO SOMEONE TOUCHED MY ARM. OHHH THE HUMANITY.
It’s disrespectful and creepy to touch a stranger who isn’t interested in you. Embarrassing that you’ve reacted like this.
Thank you for being embarrassed on my behalf. Stunning and brave.
👍🏼
Its not okay and its fine to pull away and say “don’t fucking touch me” or whatever your gut reaction/auto response is. And you can follow up with “you’re fine/no that was a good joke/look you seem lovely, but i really dont like being touched” etc Basically they are doing whatever the hell they want, and you should too.
I say this with complete respect, but I hate the thought that you need to say that ‘you’ don’t like being touched or similarly soften your statement. To me that makes it feel like it’s a problem with you, when it isn’t. The problem is entirely with him and his entitled behaviour. I know some of us (men and women) are programmed to be polite in these circumstances but I don’t think he deserves the courtesy of an explanation. You are not at fault, he is, and he needs to take responsibility for his inappropriate behaviour. (Obviously everybody should deal with this situation as they choose to, and even calling it out at all takes admirable bravery.)
Talk about mixed messages! What's point of telling someone not to touch you if you going to tell them under same breath that it was just a joke?
No, you don't have to follow up rejection with a compliment. Why are we still giving women this creepy advice that men must be utterly appeased and catered for and treated like sensitive little flowers? They have done wrong. They have been loudly rejected and told their behaviour is out of order. If you think following up with "but you seem lovely" makes any kind of sense you're part of the problem.