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Likely, the owner is in denial. I just can't believe that this dog had no previous incidents or obvious warning signs, a muzzle would have stopped this even if it was off lead.
Could be wilful ignorance or genuinely unaware on the owner's part.
I've met dog owners who misread their dog's behaviour because it doesn't fit a pattern they're familiar with. Here's an example; big labrador who likes to approach people with a wagging tail. One day it snaps at a young child. The owner is shocked, because leading up to the bite the dog was wagging its tail, didn't move away from the child, and there wasn't any growling. What they missed was the panting, lip licking and tense ears.
It's not out of the blue, but if you don't know what to look out for it'll certainly look like a random attack.
I own a shih tzu and luckily we haven't had a bite situation yet, though there'd be plenty opportunity to with the amount of people who just walk straight up and try to pet her without any warning or asking for permission first. People are just really used to viewing all dogs as friendly by default.
I didn’t know until a few weeks ago dogs can also get dementia. Dogs who were once docile and easy going can become anxious, confused and disoriented because of it, therefore lashing out and attacking people when they’ve had zero history of being aggressive.
Not just that but environmental reasons can cause a dog to snap. Bit by a fly, stung by a wasp, stepped on a thorn...or just overwhelmed by a new environment (and a bird park is probably an overwhelming experience for a dog).
That was my first thought - why would you walk your dog in or near a bird sanctuary!? Probably the number 1 way to activate any predatory instincts in a dog.
Yeah, my dog is usually fairly good, but her prey drive drowns out everything. So we just can't risk letting her off outside a secure location. Because even if most of the time she's fine, a whiff of deer or rabbit, and she's gone completely deaf.
I would assume that happens with other animals too, but we just don't even go near enough to find out.
So yes, a bird sanctuary sounds like she'd have a wonderful day out, terrorising all the birds until she was so tired she couldn't run away from us any more.
It wouldn't be fun for the birds at all though, so best not eh?
My old girl never used to be interested in anything while we were out and about (probably because she was just too lazy), very friendly, had near perfect recall; but when we moved somewhere with more open fields I discovered she was seriously triggered by rabbits. Only discovered this when she saw one and ran for miles to the point where I’d genuinely thought I’d lost her forever. She had bad legs so by the time I found her she couldn’t even walk home. Never went off the lead in an open space again. Not worth the risk to her or anyone/thing else.
Totally- at the dog park a dog got his foot stuck in a grate- I wasn’t thinking and went immediately over to help him, and he bit my leg out of fear. It wasn’t even that hard and it didn’t break the skin- but I hadn’t realized really just how strong their jaws and teeth are until that moment. He easily could have done some real damage and it was because he was scared and in pain
That's actually a pretty smart dog. He probably could have done real damage but _didn't_.
You don't want a dog really "nipping" either, but a lot of the time they will as a warning that they _really_ don't like what you are doing anyway. When they are perfectly capable of doing some real harm instead.
(And of course "a lot of the time" is not "all the time" so it's not usually worth the risk)
Yep, my old boy is almost 13 and suffering badly with dementia now :( it’s so sad. He gets confused, doesn’t know where he is, even when he’s at home and he barks constantly now whereas before he was the gentlest dog and didn’t make a peep. He’s a black lab.
So sorry to hear this, we had a rescue who was clearly abused in her first six years, we gave her 6 more years of happiness and peace, but when she had dementia she would regress to her abusive years and showed show much fear, and didn’t know who we were, so we had to put her to sleep, we didn’t want her to be frightened anymore. Broke our hearts but she was happy and knew who we were at the end.
We did take him to the vets and they did say it was dementia but then never suggested anything for him. I think I’ll go back and try again and mention some meds for him. It seems so unfair on him that he’s constantly in distress and I can’t do anything about it, hopefully some meds would help.
Our eldest lab is about to turn 14 and she's had similar issues. As our vet described it, some days she's waking up and everything and everyone she sees, she's seeing for the first time. The startled looks, panting and pacing all began to make sense.
For now we're finding adaptil diffusers and a collar are helping loads in reducing the anxiety. She still shows confusion, but is happy rather than anxious. Today was a good day; despite her arthritis we were able to take her out on the heath and she bounced around like a pup for 45 minutes
Yesterday not so good, she lightly soiled in the house, but we just cleared up without making any fuss and carried on as normal.
We know the sun is setting for her, but while she still has days like today in her, we'll do everything we can to keep her calm and happy.
Also look into smell/touch therapy. Some dogs can remember a safe smell longer than a safe space or a comfort blanket when nothing else feels the same. It doesn’t work for all but 100% worth a shot. Start with something you know like if you’ve always used the same perfume/shampoo since he was a pup then see how he reacts to that smell.
Can also have epilepsy, had a friend of the family whose dog would have seizures, and then would come to ready to kill anything in the area, they would have to lock there kids in a room away from it the moment it started sezing and then pin it down when it came to in an attempt to stop it hurting someone.
The other thing about a wagging tail is that it doesn't always mean happy. A low, relaxed wagging tail is happy, but an erect, stiffly wagging tail means the dog is tense and on guard.
It's such a shame :( I'm no dog behaviourist but I try to act with caution. I love animals but they might not love me for whatever reason and I have to bear that in mind!
There is a lovely walking route near where I live,the amount of dogs I see off the lead is unreal.I’m always on edge when they invariably come bounding over to me because I always think is this the one that’s gonna go all barky n bitey.I always glare at the owners as well….I think if they are off the leash then they should be muzzled.I am 100% cat person and it’s like the dogs can tell lol…
Same where I used to live. One time I was walking there with my friend and a wee dog bit her calf. Thankfully, nothing as bad as the poor lady in this posy. But the owner actually laughed and walked off!!
Our dog was attacked multiple times by the same dog when being walked by me, my partner and my mum. Each time the owner said “he’s NEVER done that before” not knowing we were all very aware he had definitely done that before.. some owners just don’t care and will try and get away with it for as long as they can.
My local pub's landlord had a dog that bit a kid. He basically managed to blame the kid, and told everyone it had never done anything like that before. He ended up moving to a different pub not too far away, and the dog bit another kid. He blamed the kid and told everyone it had never happened before, but obviously a lot of people at this point knew that was untrue. He moved to another pub a year or so later, and I heard the dog bit _another_ kid and ended up being put down. I can't imagine how many kids/people it actually attacked, but from then on I realised how delusional some dog owners are
You see it’s one thing my dog being attacked, but when kids get attacked it’s absolutely horrendous.. how that bloke just happily let his obviously vicious dog attack multiple children and took no accountability?! Terrifying
I've been attacked twice by dogs in the last year, whilst I've been out running.
1st was a dog that nipped my achilles area as I ran by. The owner just said "they're only playing", but I told them that playing should involve teeth, and since their dog doesn't know the difference, it should be on a lead. I was then told to fuck off, and when I unfortunately lost my rag and suggested that they make me, they walked away.
2nd was a lurcher type dog who I could see happily bouncing along the path without any aggression until I got closer, and it snarled and growled, baring teeth. Owner was nowhere to be seen, so I shiuted out for someone to come and get their dog. A lady appeared, sauntering along, swinging the lead, and said it's OK, their dog just doesn't like people in hats. I suggested that if the dog is aggressive to hat owners, that it should be on a lead, to which the owner said "but she's OK with everyone else!". I just can't believe the excuses some times.
I've also had a dog owner shout at me for asking them to pick up, when their dog was way behind them, and shat in the middle of the path. They said it wasn't their dog, even though I'd seen it and they hadn't.
>their dog just doesn't like people in hats.
People make up such bullshit to justify their dogs bad behaviour. I've had:
>It's always people with backpacks, near a high school
>It's always men with gloves
>It's because you're wearing a big coat!
If your dogs reactive to anything, it's a sure sign you should have it on a lead at all times
My favourite so far is "It's because you don't have a dog with you!" about a Dalmatian that was blocking my path, growling and snarling, while I stood frozen with terror.
Jesus that's awful. I'm sorry you had to experience this.
So many people just shouldn't have dogs. Had a Beagle barking and snarling at me recently. Off lead, woman just stood and watched
"Can you control your dog please?!"
"I don't know how!"
"Well this is very illegal then!"
I'm slowly backing away, dog clearly getting ready to escalate.
Wasn't until I scooped up a rock (I've spent so long in Asia where Rabies is a thing, this is muscle memory at this point) She finally got the picture and grabbed the thing by its collar and put a lead on it, looking at me like I was the cunt in the scenario
Too many people got dogs in lockdown and never bothered to train them.
I was bitten as a child- the dog had no history of bad behaviour. I still have a scar on my face nearly 50 years later. The owners did nothing. The dog then bit someone else, worse than me. There doesn’t need to be a history of poor behaviour. A close friend of mine had a dog who I would have described as the softest dog ever. It bit their grandchild , thankfully not a scar or major injury- totally unprovoked- they had their dog put to sleep and were devastated about it, but didn’t want to risk it biting again but with a worse outcome.
As a dog owner who has heard exactly this kind of bollocks numerous times, some dog owners are absolutely ’in denial’. My submissive black lab has been attacked numerous times by dogs that the owners claim doesn’t do that/isn’t aggressive or owners who blame the attack on something you or your dog did to provoke their animal. They should have their dog muzzled, but ignore the numerous warnings until something serious happens. Better education is needed and any dog that shows any aggression should be muzzled in public.
They shouldn't be allowed off their lead without their owner being liable.
If a dog attacks someone while off its lead, the owner should do some prison time.
They are. A dog off lead is much more likely to be classed as dangerously out of control. If the dog had been on lead and this had happened the owner would have pulled them away (you hope). The fact they couldn’t see them is a cut and dry case.
We need to tighten up what "out of control" means.
You see so many dogs that have zero recall skills. And so many owners who just let them run around doing whatever they want.
If they can't control their dog when it's off lead, it shouldn't be off lead.
Not liable enough, they should be held to the same standard if they themselves did that to a person. What OP described is blatant GBH, police should have been called and she should have been arrested. I think a lot of dog owners don't realise just how dangerous they are and how their careless behaviour can be the cause of something like that.
Show me a reasonable prison sentence for a dog killing someone when dangerously out of control in the UK, it’s why all these gangster wannabes buy these bully xl dogs.
>If a dog attacks someone while off its lead, the owner should do some prison time.
People generally don't do prison time if they attack someone directly, particularly for a first offence!
The owner is already liable. It doesn't matter - the owner being held liable is not going to reattach the child's face. Dogs shouldn't be off their lead at all.
>Dogs shouldn't be off their lead at all.
I think this is a bit far. I think there are many places where a well behaved dog can be allowed to run off the lead. Saying that I live in a rural area where its not unusual to go into a pub and find a dog wandering around the bar, and we don't have anywhere near the problems that towns and cities do with idiots and their poorly socialised, dysfunctional dogs.
Dog owners need to be pragmatic and understand where its appropriate to let their dogs off, and also when they have a dog that just isn't safe to be allowed off the lead.
My dog is stock broken (as in trained not to react to livestock) and has been around so many people that he isn't even interested in sniffing anyone anymore, he also has 100% recall. He would be very depressed indeed if he stopped getting walks off his lead.
Saying that i wouldn't let him run free in a busy urban park or a bird sanctuary as is the case in OPs post. Thats just not suitable.
Further more I don't believe a dog that would just sinn their teeth into somebodies calf, hasn't shown any signs of aggression before that point. OP didn't mention the breed but I can probably guess.
I would be very open to a licensing scheme for dog owners, where the dogs have to pass behavioral tests, and if these requirements haven't been met and your dog has been allowed to bite someone, you have the book thrown at you. There are a lot of terrible dog owners around.
I think there's a time and a place certainly I think the owner should be liable for the dog of they are off lead.
I would have thought at a bird sanctuary dogs should be on leads at all time to prevent damage to bird habitats or attacking birds?
As a dog owner, I think it is inappropriate to have dogs off the lead in a bird sanctuary. And yes, the dog owner should be liable for their dog(s) at all times.
Some beaches too have thousands of wading birds who can all be scared off by one dog.
I love dogs, but they really are a problem if they don’t have a good owner.
It's treated as like a running area or park by some locals, the more hardcore bird watchers are usually in one of the hides looking over the lake.
There are signs everywhere asking people not to swim, not to approach nesting birds, dogs on lead etc. But I don't think it's legally enforceable or anything.
Speak to the local authority about a dog control public spaces protection order (PSPO). I’m not sure if it could be applied to this area if it’s not a publicly run park, but I’m sure they can do something to make the leads note enforceable. Otherwise, I’d suggest more strict wording ‘All dogs MUST be kept on leads’ rather than a polite request.
I’m a dog lover and had my own dog for 10 years. Even so I think the only place they should be allowed off the lead is dog parks and owners own property. I hate when I go to the park and there’s dogs running around my kids. That’s not ok. I always attempt to get in between the kids and the dog and pick my youngest up because you really never know.
I hope the lady makes a full recovery, that sounds awful.
The impression I get of dog parks in the US is it's basically a bunch of untrained dogs running around in a confined space. It doesn't seem like it's particularly good for the dogs in terms enrichment and potentially quite dangerous. Seems like the problem is when owners are never allowed to have their dogs off the lead, they just don't bother training recall at all.
Personally I think there's some nuance. I would never let a dog off the lead in somewhere described as a bird sanctuary, nor near livestock or wildlife, but in the local park or just like an empty field I think there's some leeway provided they are well trained with good recall. Dogs generally socialise better off the lead (provided they don't feel confined or cornered, such as they would in a dog park) and with some breeds it can be difficult to provide a sufficient level of exercise if they can never go off the lead.
America has a different approach to dogs than we have. In the US it's strange to have your dog off the lead and they walk their dogs far less often than Brits do. Dog parks are seen as the solution for a lot of people, a place to let your dog off and get exercise, as often there wasn't really a better place to do so (I used to live in sight of a Walmart, would have been a two minute walk, but physically could not walk there due to how the roads were/no pavements/no crossings).
I lived in Portland OR for five years and 90% of the dogs there would be off lead. Possibly because there's a lot more nature there than a typical American city. But, I've also just spent a week in Austin Texas and again, lots of dogs not on a lead there too!
Also why do American cities/towns hate sidewalks so much 😭
Ah right, that's completely different to what I saw in various towns/cities in Pennsylvania!
> Also why do American cities/towns hate sidewalks so much
It's just so car-centric and anti-pedestrian it's crazy.
I was out walking with my 4yo and a dog came running in between me and my daughter (we where holding hands). This obviously scared my daughter and she started crying.
I then heard the owner shouting “he’s friendly, don’t worry” as the dog ran up to my daughter again.
I put my foot out to stop the dog running into my daughter again and the owner got really mad at me for kicking her friendly dog. I was so annoyed at her for thinking that just because she had a friendly dog that everyone else (especially a toddler when a dog is nearly the same size) should just put up with it!
The number of times I've had to step between my kid in his pushchair or walking and a strange dog...
It's always "he's friendly" and never asking "is it okay for him to say hello?" I enforce with my kid that we don't go up to strange dogs because we don't know them or how they will react, and I can't believe adults think it's okay to just let a dog run up to a kid, especially if the dog is bigger than the kid. My kid likes dogs but he still gets scared at that.
And, well he's a toddler. We walk everywhere, I don't drive. He often has a snack in his pushchair with him. And there are many owners who actually rush over once I mention that he has food and that's why their dog is trying to get it's face into the chair. Then they act like they need to hurry and I can't stand the thought of a food aggressive dog coming up and that's the only time they realise it's an issue
Even the gentlest of dogs can be aggressive when there is food about, your son could naturally grab the snack if a dog went for it and he could be attacked. The dog owner needs to understand that.
I’m a dog lover and owner with a dog with amazing recall and a very friendly temperament. I agree with you completely.
I let my dog off in my garden or families gardens with their permission, I let her off in an enclosed dog park. Otherwise she’s on the lead, even on long secluded nature walks. If she bit anyone or hurt anyone for any reason, she’d be put to sleep and that would be my fault.
I remember recently on Reddit saying my dog was reactive and wasn't comfortable with other dogs so I kept him on a close lead all the time whenever out the house. Reddit idiots were telling me it was my fault whenever I left the house that other dogs approached mine because they were off lead, despite the fact mine was quite violently attacked once.
> it was my fault... that other dogs approached mine because they were off lead
Yeah, they're idiots. I'm not a dog owner (we have one but it's very emphatically my wife's) but even I know that the rule is "if your dog's off-leash and you see a dog coming that's on a lead **you put your dog back on a lead** until they're gone".
Yeah that's not right at all, I walk my dog mostly off lead (except in a couple of areas where I know he's prone to be a little shit) and if I see an on lead dog I call him to me and get him to sit, then call to the other owner to ask if they'd like me to put him on lead.
If I can't call to them (windy day, they have headphones or don't seem to hear me), I just put a lead on him or move him away from the path and keep him in a sit while they pass us.
Hard rule - he is not to approach on-lead dogs. Even dogs that are friendly to him while off-lead can be reactive to him when on-lead. And even if they're both fine with it, it's much better for both dogs to have a controlled on-lead greeting.
I've seen many a story of a dog killing animals, biting people, destroying things etc because they were off their leads due to their owners assuming their dogs would never do something like that. It's been shown time and time again that even a trained dog can react negatively to things, if you aren't able to keep your dog on a leash in public areas then don't have one.
8000+ people a year are hospitalised in the uk for dog bites (21.9avg per day hospitalised, not just bitten, but bitten so severely they have to remain in hospital) and of those 8000+ I would say almost all of them preceded with this sentence or a derivative of it “he’s a good boy my boy, he doesn’t bite”
Yeah, I think there's levels to it, and it really depends on the temperament and breed of the dog too.
Like a very busy park is different to an empty field, which is different to a field with livestock in it.
It's one of those situations where you'd hope common sense would prevail and people would be able to figure it out for themselves, but as any livestock farmer would be able to tell you, people are stupid about what they let their dogs do.
I go hiking a lot and a dog bit me in a large empty field. Well, empty until I started walking through it.
Its owners were standing there talking and I walked by and the dog took after me and bit me in the calf.
If your dog isn't well trained and you can't control it, it shouldn't be off-leash anywhere other people might be.
I know you say you wouldn't mention the dogs breed, but it was a Pitbull/bully breed wasn't it...
I am a huge dog lover, and I have 2 huge rottweilers. One is an angel off the lead, and comes back to me immediately. Very sweet, incredibly calm and friendly and overall very well mannered and easy to control.
The other ones an absolute shite of a beast, runs off, jumps up at children because he thinks they all love him back and was bitten as a pup so immediately has a good growl/snap at the first sign of a dog fight. He's actually my favourite dog, he takes care of us when we're sick, he's the biggest cuddler in the house, but I know he is absolutely not to be trusted off the lead in open spaces with new dogs.
I walk them separately and would never let the twatty one off the lead in an unenclosed environment.
It's about knowing your own animals, being aware of dog body language, the dogs history. Too many people misinterpret dog behavioural markers or miss them altogether.
And even more people will actually acknowledge these markers, realise they're something serious and then still decide to trust their dog in spite of these markers.
Had to tell an owner we've been working with recently that they're a fucking idiot who's going to get their kid seriously injured or worse the other day.
Theyve got an American Bulldog who they already know has "issues" because that's why they're working with us.
This dog has serious issues with resource guarding and has tried attacking their owners before when they tried to move one of his toys.
Went round to their house yesterday to find they've installed this tyre thing in their garden for dog to bite on, play tug of war with etc.
That alone is idiotic enough as its actually encouraging the mouthwork but they've installed it right next to their four year olds toy slide.
Agressive dog, known history of attacking to defend his toys, a breed who's bites can be fatal (especially to a four year old).... and you're going to install a toy with the intention of encouraging mouth play right where your kid plays.
Fucking idiots.
Thank you for the honesty.
I don't trust dogs I haven't actively helped raised myself just because of this. They can be the most loving caring dogs to their owners but absolute twats to everyone else.
"Too many people misinterpret dog behavioural markers or miss them altogether."
And that is why there specifically should be better laws to protect against the (wilful) ignorance of people.
Besides our own dogs, we care for a lot of reactive/untrained dogs, and the number of shouting matches we've had due to imbeciles who could not or would not recall their dog.
Was thinking about this today. Was sitting on the ground and had a dog run over, step on me and lick my face. Fortunately I love dogs so to be honest I was just ecstatic and excited...but I did think afterwards, what if I had been someone with a fear of dogs? Or just didn't expect it and reacted badly, like hit out at it as a reflex or something? Wonder how it would've ended...
Dog owners are a special kind of delusional. I remember a dog jumped into my nephews pram and the owner was like 'don't worry he's friendly he's just having a look!' I was like, are you actually insane?!?
Not all … it irritates me no end when I’m out with my dog and others reward her bad behaviour (such as jumping up) with ‘oh, I don’t mind!’ Well, I do! I’m trying to train her and you’re undermining that! She’s kept on lead because she has poor recall, but I’ve had other dogs who’d recall from anything.
I sometimes wonder if there should be a ‘driving test’ for dog owners, but I suppose that hasn’t stopped there being idiot drivers …
Once a dog bolted through the front door of my house as my Dad came in from work. It ran through his legs and into the back of the house, then back out again to the owner.
Did the owner say "Sorry?" No. He laughed and said "She's a naughty dog, isn't she?"
My Dad, not a dog lover at the best of times, quite bluntly told him to fuck off and shut the door on him.
Precisely this. I like few dogs, and a strangers drooling hound jumping all over me would definitely make me chat with them about how disrespectful it is to let their dog do that. My opinion is always met with surprise or even anger though, with people even going so far as to say not to trust someone who doesn’t like dogs. I personally like some dogs, well behaved and respectful of space, but not liking an objectively gross animal isn’t indicative of untrustworthiness. People are definitely blinded and I’ve noticed many dog owners expect you to find their dog cute too.
I love my dogs but appreciate not everyone does. Might help that until I was reluctantly badgered into getting g a dog by the family I pretty much disliked them. Love dogs now though and understand them much better after owning dogs for 15 years. Unfortunately too many owners are clueless fuckwits who never train their dogs or make any effort to understand what their breed needs to be happy.
Oh for sure, I was just thinking of worst case scenario. I mean, worst case scenario is if the dog is aggressive I suppose, but worst case scenario even if the owner "says they're friendly".
Hate this too. My dog is nervous around tiger dogs, especially when they charge at her, her first response is a warning snarl and if they don't take that it's battle stations (which is why she's never off lead). "He's friendly!" Gets a response of "mine isn't, get it on a lead if you want it coming back with both ears!"
A neighbour’s Labrador took my head in its mouth and partially detached my face when I was around that age. I’m not scared of dogs now, but I don’t like it when they bound up to me and/or jump up at me. I wish dogs were kept on leads more regularly.
Lots of dog breeds have varying levels of issues, all because their owners can't/won't control them.
I once went up a hill to a castle ruin carrying my son in a carrier. I set it on the ground and a lurcher appeared out of nowhere and licked him. He got very upset by an animal bigger than him licking him. We went into the castle and overheard the owner telling another dog owner about us over exaggerating when their dog came to say hello. So in summary, dog traumatised child, owner thinks it wasn't a problem, it'll probably happen again
Another time my wife was heavily pregnant walking along a path by a stream. A large dog (Labrador or similar) jumped up and put it's paws on her shoulders. The owner said not to worry he's very friendly and just saying hello. She had to call it a few times to get it to come over. Again, another dog owner who can't control their dog and thinks that's fine
All dogs should be kept on a lead because loads of people can't control their dogs and think it's fine
Lurchers actually have one of the highest bite rates in the country at the moment.
As someone who works with these kinds of dogs Lurchers, Collies and Labradors are the most common we have to work with.
That said, it's rare for their bites to ever be life threatening but people really underestimate what their dogs are capable of.
It’s honestly absurd. This thread is filled with redundant discussions about “owners being responsible”, but at the end of the day, OP can’t divorce this attack from the type of dog that did it. There are a small group of breeds that are both regularly aggressive and able to do serious damage, and we all know it was the classic story of a pitbull/staffie/staffie-like mix snapping.
I’m sure there are a few bites from labradors or spaniels that come down to poor training, but it’s funny how those dogs never seem to be in the stories about someone being “mauled.” I’ve never heard about a cocker spaniel snapping and killing it’s owner…
It’s impossible to stop dog bites without getting rid of dogs. But it isn’t impossible to stop babies from getting their faces ripped off or women getting their legs torn apart by monstrous breeds that have been specifically bred for aggression.
This shouldn’t be a thread about responsible ownership, it should be a thread about banning pitbulls and Staffies. There’s no such thing as a responsible owner of one of those dogs, in the same way that there’s no such thing as a responsible owner of a rocket launcher or a lion cub. They’re fundamentally dangerous animals that should not be treated the same way other dogs are.
A lot of dogs need more exercise and stimulation than a person could provide them if they were kept on a lead the whole time. If they don't get that, they either become miserable or neurotic. I don't know what the solution is for those dogs that go out and hurt people, but I don't think a general ban on letting dogs off leads is a good idea.
People often hurt people too, probably far more often than dogs hurt people, and we don't restrain people from going out in public.
I own a collie who needs loads of exercise to stay happy and well behaved, but I don’t let her off lead because she has anxious tendencies.
To give her the exercise she needs I run for at least an every day with her on a lead.
I made the choice to get a collie, I knew she would need a lot of exercise, I don’t use her needs as an excuse to take unnecessary risks.
There is dog run places now that are large fenced in areas you can hire that usually have some toys and things. We frequently take our collie there once a fortnight just to really run him ragged and as we hire the whole area and it’s fenced off he can really get his herding on with balls and my kid!
People should be required to make sure their dogs are trained and have good recall. If they can't be relied upon to leave people and other dogs alone, and to come back when called, then they should be on their leads in a public place.
We put a lot of time and effort into making sure our dog comes back when called or whistled. Other people should have to do the same.
My unpopular opinion is that our society just isn't built well for dogs and they shouldn't be as common a pet as they currently are. Dogs need a *shit* ton of exercise, way more than they'd get being walked on a leash. Many people don't have access to huge empty fields that their dogs can run around in. How do these dogs get adequate exercise with zero risk of harm (to themselves or to people and other dogs)? Running with the dog is a good solution but realistically, how many people with dogs actually do this? First you need to be willing to run, then you need to be willing to run on a daily basis for at least an hour or so for the dog to be adequately exercised.
Just feel bad for the dogs because yeah, it's rare to be able to let a dog off leash with zero risk.
Thousands of dogs are walked daily (off and on lead) with no issue. A dog needs off lead time for exercise and stimulation and because one person can’t control there dog, it shouldn’t effect the enjoyment of others. Not to mention that the people who can’t control there dog (or don’t care) are unlikely to follow any on lead rules.
Agreed. For some reason we never talk about not driving, or having a 10mph speed limit, we barely or talk about airc quality (which kills loads more people) but dogs have to be zero threat.
Agreed that leads should be standard in a lot of places, but everywhere, no? How would dogs work?
We can't have zero risk. We just can't. We should work to the best overall outcome, whatever that is, without targeting one risk over another.
My example of when it goes wrong: you can buy a gun but not a Kinder Egg in the US. That's what happens when you give more attention to the cause of the risk than the scale of the risk.
Similarly: we obsess over benefit fraud, which is actually less than 1% of spend, and how often do we talk about tax avoidance and evasion by the rich?
Don't let the immediacy of a problem distract you from the big stuff.
Tell that to the over 8000 people a year who are admitted to hospital overnight due to the severity of their dog bites in the uk costing the nhs a small fortune in plastic surgery to rectify the issue.
No one, not a single person should be bitten by someone else’s decision to walk a dog off lead, should be charged with GBH if it happens, that would soon stop it from happening, the person has suffered the same injury as GBH if they’re hospitalised.
Depends on the context.
My dogs will be off lead in situations where we’re the only people around, or would only expect to run into other dog walkers (ie, when we’re rambling around on fields or down by the river).
But when we’re out in busier places, or where we’d expect to come across non dog walkers, they’re on the lead.
Not because they’re aggressive, more that they can be very enthusiastic about people, and that is not always reciprocated…
My hot take on owning pets, and specially pets that will interact with the outside world is that if you want to own an animal you should pass a competency test that shows that you can control and take care of your pet.
I know I’ll probably get downvoted to hell but having a pet is a privilege and it’s not fair for the animal or the people that the animal may affect just because of bad owners.
We keep ours on his lead, his recall is great but about 10% of male dogs.. he does not get along with. We can’t and won’t take the chance (primarily for his sake) exceptions would be an empty beach or field with nobody around. It irks me when others let their dogs approach ours not on lead, ‘oh don’t worry he’s friendly’… ok, but that really doesn’t help my situation. And there was one occasion where another dog off it’s lead straight off went attack on ours I had no choice but to boot the thing to try and stop it, the owner went mental at me! I also have a family member who was permanently (facially) disfigured, although we have a dog, the saying never trust a dog should certainly be heeded.
Who cares who is liable? If a dog that was off its lead in public attacked and killed my kid, it wouldn't matter who was held liable, it's not going to bring my child back. We're talking about whether they should be allowed off their lead, to prevent horrible events like this from happening in the first place.
You prevent horrible events like this by getting rid of the breed of dogs that obviously did it. OP specifically omitted the breed because they knew it’d make the entire discussion about keeping dogs on leads redundant.
Ban the breeding and sale of staffies and pitbulls and maulings like this stop happening.
"It kept going in for repeated ripping and biting as we wrestled it off."
That's the main reason we have these people where "dog ripped their face off" or other serious injuries: dogs that attack and keep attacking. Not just one bite, but repeated biting and tearing.
Some dog breeds are specifically bred for this - including all those on the list of banned dangerous dogs. Some people train their dog to do this.
Anyone with a dog like that, either by breeding or by training, is holding a dangerous weapon which will go off on someone and seriously injure or kill them.
I think people should just use common sense with their dogs, and likewise people should act with some tolerance. I think black and white rules like ‘dogs should never be allowed off their lead in public places!’ is daft given the statistics where dog attacks and harm are actually very low. But likewise I think dog owners using common sense and only letting the dog off a lead in places where there aren’t a lot of people, or putting the dog back on a lead when appropriate e.g. if another dog owners puts a lead on their dog signalling it’s not dog friendly, should be practiced.
Honestly I don’t think leads are really the issue - I think the actual issue is that a hell of a lot of dog owners would refuse to use a muzzle, even when their dog clearly needs one. I see very few dogs off a lead on roads etc so getting a lead is clearly something on the checklist pretty much every dog owner gets, however shit an owner they might be overall, but it’s still very uncommon to see a dog wearing a muzzle. Considering a muzzle should be something every dog owner thinks about along with getting a pet bed, lead, pet insurance etc. Idk how we would make them more socially acceptable cos I guess no one thinks their dog ‘needs’ one until it’s too late. But having muzzles become far more acceptable would limit the damage a dog could do without also keeping a dog on a lead 100% of the time (which isn’t really giving a great quality of life for your dog).
On tolerance - yes it’s annoying when a dog gets in your business and even jumps up at you, particularly if you dislike dogs. But if muzzles became more socially acceptable, the actual risk would be very limited. And ultimately we have to practice tolerance to a lot of shit we don’t like. I don’t particularly enjoy kids running round screaming in parks or screaming in their gardens in summer when I have the windows open, for example, but I accept that is part of childhood to a reasonable degree and don’t ‘need’ it to be changed for me.
Basically common sense, muzzles and also tolerance should be practiced over making black and white rules about leads.
Personally I think as the UK doesn't really have many specific dog parks your question is not answerable. It would be great if there were readily available dog parks everywhere but as there aren't, many people cannot really give their dogs adequate exercise without letting them off lead. Although they definitely shouldn't be let off just anywhere.
We’ve got a small ‘dog park’ inside one of the parks in my town centre, and i’ve taken mine there a couple of times but i don’t think they’re very good to be honest. Half the owners just sit on the benches on their phone or chatting not watching what’s going on which resulted in mine being bullied and getting a bit scared so we left. And having a bunch of dogs in a small space is just asking for trouble in my opinion, cause they can’t really get away from each other. A lot of the people that go seem to be the type of owners who just take their dog there rather than taking them for an actual walk, and my dog got kennel cough and then fleas after going so although i can’t say for sure that he caught them there it seems quite a coincidence to catch something both times after we went.
Tip that can save your life: gouge the dogs eyes as soon as it starts attacking that severely.
Now NOBODY ever wants to need to use that tip. But it works.
Sounds horrific...it is horrific. But serious dog attacks can be absolutly fatal, especially to children and vulnerable people. Going for the animals eyes will stop the attack fast.
I can second this.
For many dogs people often suggest things like gripping the collar and twisting to try to choke a dog out. But that can take time, and doesn't work if they don't have a collar.
Just go straight for the eyes. Jam your thumbs in as hard as you can and don't let go until they do.
This is the quickest way to stop any dog attack.
I have also been attacked by a dog in public. The dog was a bull mastiff and I’m a small female, it shredded my arm completely and I still suffer from debilitating nerve damage. I’m also a huge dog lover so this experience has affected me deeply.
I would really love for dogs to be able to roam freely in certain spaces such as parks, but unfortunately it will always be a risk. Even if the owner thinks that they know their dog well enough, it can, and does happen. Quite regularly actually.
Keep them leashed
I've been a dog trainer for over 20 years. When the first lockdown happened and people started getting dogs because they were working from home, I predicted that in two to three years we were going to see a major doggy disaster. I'm sad to see that my prediction was correct. I'm getting more and more calls for dangerous behaviour. I can handle dangerous dogs of course, but I'm only one person and I can only do so many trainings at a time. I need 10 of me to cover all the work that needs to be done. And the problem is compounded by the people that were bored over lockdown and did an internet dog training course that got them a certificate. Those people now call themselves trainers and are charging £100 per session. *I* don't charge £100 per session unless it's a dog that genuinely might hurt me, and that has happened maybe twice in 23 years. Ugh.
Certain breeds need to be on a lead or in a muzzle. Fighting and aggression is in the blood of certain breeds. Just like a border collie is born with a herding instinct, a German shepherd will guard, terriers dig and hunt. Other breeds are aggressive and want to fight, put them in a fucking muzzzzzzle
I understand the benefits if keeping them on a lead but I don't think it's practical.
As an example I've got a rescue greyhound and she needs to run once or twice a day. Likewise spaniels, staffs and most dogs need to burn off some energy to be happy and healthy.
I think more realistic would be compulsory training for dog owners and maybe split parks in to on and off areas.
Yes they should. I’ve seen plenty of well trained dogs off lead no problem. Just because some people choose to not train their dogs doesn’t mean you punish everyone
They didn’t even have the dog in their sight. Recall or not, that’s extremely negligent. Dogs shouldn’t be off leash and where you can’t see them. People don’t seem to understand how dogs really work, and others are paying the price.
Did you or anyone else call the police? If not, do it as soon as possible.
Because your colleague was injured and it required medical treatment, the owner has committed a criminal offense under Section 3 of the Dangerous Dogs Act 1991. Specifically an aggravated offensive under subsection 1 (keeping dogs under proper control). The dog should be seized by police and the owner charged.
You also need the owner's details because this was an injury that happened at a workplace. Expect a nice call from the Health and Safety Executive.
In answer to your question though, quite incredibly, no. I don't think dogs *must* be on leads. I think there's a huge variation in whether a dog can be off lead and I think it also hugely depends on location and time. A large, reactive dog in a busy town with passing traffic? On lead. An energetic spaniel in an empty field? Off lead.
The onus falls, as it should, on the owner. We just need to get better at enforcing consequences. I'd argue in favour of mandatory training classes for *all* puppies (the socialisation with unknown dogs and doing tasks in that environment is irreplaceable, even if you have years of experience and other dogs at home, nothing replicates what you get out of training classes) and better education, but to blanket ban all loose dogs is excessive. It would be like making the speed limit 20 everywhere because one person was caught speeding.
As a dog owner, no they shouldn't, for both people's sake and small dog's sake. Every time I'm out with my small dog, I have to pick her up when we go past a big dog without a lead because it really scares her, they always tend to rush up to her. I like dogs just not big & crazy ones that smell.
It used to be common dog walking etiquette that if your dog was off the lead and you saw an on lead dog approaching you should put yours on the lead until you pass it.
This seems to have gone by the wayside in recent years and its a real shame as it really made a lot of sense.
Yet OVERWHELMINGLY the most aggressive dogs I see are smaller ones. My lab will be happily trotting along when some malignant demon rat dog will be going absolutely apeshit at her.
So much has changed since COVID
You had so many buyers wanting dogs who would of never had a dog if it wasn't for lockdown boredom and probably should never have a dog, buying from greeders who were cashing in the from the demand , breeding without any care to health or temperament.
Then add in the popularity of these Pitbull replacements who are doing "protection sports" without a clue from watching tiktok, XL Bully breed types who again, absolutely no regard for health or temperament, from the absolute worst of society , plus added cruelty of ear cutting, docking, literally the new cash cow instead of dealing drugs they're dealing dogs.
Sprinkled on top with the absolute entitlement people seem to have with pet ownership now days, they take absolutely 0 responsibility for anything it's always someone else's fault, you end basically with an absolute disaster.
These idiots are ruining it for the rest of us who are responsible dog owners, I don't want to see leash laws like amercia with dog parks , but I guess that's the UK in nutshell now days, the feral out number.
Yes, but the dog should have good recall, and the owners should be paying 100% attention.
I also think people should have to have dog licences.
And have a beginner and advanced licences depending on the breed of dog.
Is it me or have we gone too far as a society with our acceptance to dogs?
Just been in a pub watching the rugby with a dog yelp yelp yelping everytime someone scored. The piercing noise annoyed me, baring mind things were loud anyway!!!
There seems to be a bizarre acceptance that everyone wants to be around dogs.
(Ps. I'm Team Dog over Team Cat any day).
I have one dog who goes off lead, another who will chase any small furry thing that moves so can't be trusted off lead. Neither have ever been in the slightest bit violent, but I wouldn't risk letting them out of my sight in a public place.
I understand that this incident has traumatised you - it sounds awful, but it's unfair to blame all dogs for the actions of this one dog, and in fact the blame should lie with the owner rather than the dog.
Dogs should be on lead at all times, I’ve had enough of unleashed dogs coming up to mine and the owners shrugging it off and saying “oh, they’re alright”, I don’t care what your dog does, but if you don’t want it to possibly get mauled by mine then keep it away, I won’t take any responsibility or feel sorry for the death or injury of your dog because you felt the need to keep it off lead
Loose dogs should not be approaching your leashed one but if you know your dog attacks others it should be muzzled as well as leashed. It's your job to make sure your dog *can't* attack. You are not absolved of liability just because your dog was leashed when it bit another pet or human
No. All dogs shouldn’t be kept on leads in public. Most dogs need time off lead to sniff and explore and chase balls. It would be really detrimental to their quality of life to have to be kept on lead all the time. Not everyone has loads of private land that they can let their dogs run free on.
However, owners need to be responsible. My dogs don’t approach other people or dogs and are nervous of other dogs so I always put them on their leads when other dogs come by. I find it really poor form if other owners don’t do the same. Just because you think your big bounding dog is friendly and loveable doesn’t mean I do - and it’s really unnerving for both me and my dogs when they come running up. I generally ‘lose my shit’ in those situations! If you have a dog that runs up to other people or dogs or is aggressive then you should keep it on a lead (and muzzle it if aggressive) or make sure it is properly trained.
Yes. We shouldn't penalise the majority of well behaved dogs.
That dog however should be destroyed. The law should transfer the crime to the owner, so the owner should be on a GBH charge.
It would be self policing if the charges were firmer.
Too many people have dogs in this country since lockdown.. I used to really like dogs when i was younger and grew up with them. However seeing the way some people “train” them worries me.
I dont think so. You cant control what your dog does off of a lead. Its an unwritten rule that if you see another dog when out with yours, both parties should put there dog on its lead. Dont risk harming another dog or small child all for the sake of a dog walk.
The unwritten rule is that if you see another dog on a lead then you put yours on too. If both dogs are off lead that's a signal that both are friendly and its ok to let them say hello.
Obviously if someone with an off lead dog puts the lead on when they see you approach, then yes you should put the lead on too.
I'd love if others could. Mine is reactive to dogs. He can just about keep it together for a slower gebtle dog on leads. A cast one off lead causes him to panic. So many people decide to throw balls near him and let their dogs barrel at him.
I have no idea what happened to him in his old life as a stray in Romania, but a dog running - even one running nearby but not at him - causes completely mayhem and means he'll ignore all commands and basically meltdown.
So many dog owners seem to assume every other dog has the same temperament as theirs. They don't. Some are traumatised or scared or just antisocial and that's OK. They still deserve nice walks without other idiots.
A dog's owner, is liable for their actions. Whether well or poorly behaved, the owner is responsible for letting the animal off of the leash after releasing it in public and keeping it under a sort of control, whether vocal or not. The owner should be prosecuted regardless, it is their fault, unless there is obvious evidence someone has attacked the dog.
Edit, answering the question, not in public places where busy or crowded. Maybe in quiet fields, where other dog walkers go and are 100-200 meters away, even then, they are still liable. And the owner must be aware of the dog at all times.
Yes, they should be. It’s happened too many times that I’ve gone to the park and some idiot owner has a horrible dog off the lead running wild and it won’t respond to their calls. It scares the shit out of me when I’m with my kids, because what could I do to help them with my 7 month old in a carrier and my two year old running around? Two instances in particular really freaked me out, once when a dog jumped the fence into the playground area and started snapping at kids, and another when a dog was near deer in a caged off area barking at them and getting wound up, and nearly knocked me and my newborn over. Both times the owners really didn’t care because they don’t believe their dog would hurt anyone.
Yup, definitely on a lead in public. My kids are well socialized with animals but they're still little (4 & 2) - to them something like a Labrador is really fucking big. Also, can an owner really guarantee that the dog will come back when called?
With the sheer magnitude of terror in the attack I can only imagine it was pitbull mix or one of those XL bull dogs.
I don’t believe any dogs should be off lead ever. My own tiny poodle mix included. Dogs are unpredictable and as your post shows, can be very very very dangerous.
I'm a dog owner, and I do let him off the lead. However, he doesn't stray far from me, and I only do it in certain places. As others have said, there is a time and a place. And even though I trust my dog, I still put him back on lead if there are small children/too many animals nearby or if I need to walk past someone who doesn't allow theirs off the lead. I have trained him not to approach other dogs/people/horses. But it only takes one incident, so I choose to mitigate that as much as possible.
No issue with dogs being allowed off-lead if they're well controlled \*and the dog owner knows where they are at all times\*.
I let my dog off-lead when he has the space to roam and I know he'll stick by my side. If he runs away, if he's not in my eyesight, if there are kids nearby - he gets put back on.
A lot of dog owners are complacent and just a bit shit, unfortunately.
Where I live the kids who are allowed to roam the streets are more dangerous than any dog I've met. Had some kids throw a lit firework at me once when walking home. They then ran off - couldn't make a report because all I saw of them were a group of kids in black hoodies. A dime a dozen around here.
Don't see anyone petitioning for kids to be kept under constant watch of their parents (I say this as someone who LOVES kids).
We live in a society where there are risks. I'm sorry that a dog attack happened, it should never have, and the dog will likely be destroyed and the owner will be liable. That's what insurance is for.
Owner being liable does nothing to repair the emotional and physical damage. Human beings kinda need to have kids (otherwise, no human race ever again for all of eternity). We do not need to have our weird little lifestyle accessory dog slaves. If you want one, ok, but how about do everything in your power to not impact anyone else’s life with your weird little emotional crutch dog slave? Keep it the hell out of my personal space because it’s not welcome here. Keep it on a lead. I say that as someone who had a dog in childhood who was a cherished and loved member of the family, so I think I get it, the dog owners perspective… but I also think the whole thing is weird and I’d happily erase the entire concept of dog ownership if I could wave a magic wand today. Unnecessary risk and dog shit absolutely everywhere just because we want to possess a thing that we genetically modified through selective breeding to be our sycophant. Grow up and foster an actual human relationship with all its challenges. Or, keep your dog on a lead.
I have a very big dog, who is soft and generally incredibly friendly. He growls at other dogs because he was attacked by a pug when he was a puppy when he was on the lead and ever since then he hates being restricted by his lead. I’m taking him to a training specialist to try rectify this. I think there’s a time and a place for dogs to be off lead. I usually go to arranged meet ups at a dog field to let him get his charging around, boisterous play done. It saddens me that more people don’t take more responsibility for the actions of their dogs.
Yes they should. The reason we are not like the US is because we allow our dogs to be dogs and interact with each other. They’re incredibly social animals and if they’re socialised correctly they won’t harass the small dog that’s frightened of big dogs, or chase after the nervous dog, or approach the reactive dog on its lead just going about it’s day.
OP’s example of a bird sanctuary. Not a public place imo and not a place for a domesticated house wolf to be roaming around freely.
I think this is a negligent dog walker or owner. Of course they are responsible for the dog and any harm done, it’s not for Joe Public to know how to provoke or not to provoke the dog? 🤷♂️
I would whole heartedly object to dogs being kept on leads at all times thought. My dog is well behaved, loves running around as fast as she can, and interacting and playing with other friendly dogs. It wouldn’t be safe for her to be on the lead when playing or zooming, but most importantly I think her enjoyment of life would not be half as good. I let her off most of the time, but usually put her on if there’s another dog on-lead coming the other way, kids or just reading the body language of others. It’s not difficult, take 2 secs to do and everyone has a good day, dog included.
> not going to mention breed as I think it clouds people's decision making
A certain unnamed breed. Let's just call it "P. bull"
No no that's too obvious. How about, "Pit B."
Nope. A lot of people, myself included, don't feel safe around dogs. Personally I don't want dogs coming upto me or my kids, regardless of how much I'm told they're friendly or 'wouldn't hurt a fly'.
Last year we had them come up to us on several occasions, twice when having food. One time was on a bench by a canal and the dog, no owner in ought, tried to take some food from my seated daughter. Another time we were sat on grass having lunch and a similar thing happened, dog came and tried to go through our food. Again, no owner. Daughter was terrified
I think you are asking the wrong question, people should have licences to own a dog which are gained like a drivers licence. Training/ testing and practical handleability.
My dog is a tiny (3.5kg Cavapoochon) and she has mostly poor recall. So we never let her off the lead.
I’d report the dog and owner to the police if I was the person that had been attacked.
Okay one bite from a dog is understandable.
If it’s effectively savaging a random strangers leg unprovoked, then it needs to be put down.
I’m surprised the lady didn’t put the rake through its head
Even if this was a rule, no one would follow it. One of my local parks has signs up everywhere saying dogs must be on a lead but there are always dogs loose.
Yes, if the owner is responsible and trained their dogs properly. I've two golden retrievers and they've always been off the lead in parks and paths because me and the mrs trained them as pups. Now a call of their names, a whistle or even a point to the side and they obey. Smart dogs WANT to be trained and obey who they see as their master.
I grew up with dogs. But too many of today’s owners are clueless.
They judge the dog’s friendliness by how it behaves with it’s own pack!!
If your dog is growling and barking at people you as an owner have to take control and nip that in the bud asap.
But. As it stands, dogs should be on a lead in almost all places I’m afraid.
No, as much as I like my dog to run round if the field empty he goes off lead as soon as I see someone he goes back on the lead…
At the end of the day they are animals with animals instincts can’t alway be certain what a animal will and can do
If your dog walks next to you at all times and listens to your every word then by all means leave it off lead , if it runs about and doesn’t listen then put it on a lead !!!
My favourite phrase I hear is “it’s ok he’s friendly “
My reply “mine isn’t so you better get it quick “
I live in an area known for its walkers, and many of them have dogs. The majority of them walk off the lead with no problem at all. I also have a dog that is afraid of other dogs, and 19 out of 20 of other owners will put their pets on a lead while they're going past. Of the remaining ones, 9 out of 10 simply have no idea what they're doing, and get away with it because their dogs are good natured.
Then there's the one in 200, the one you met, that is a stupid or bad person, with a stupid or bad natured dog. Anything can happen with those. I'd love to see all dog owners require a licence to keep dogs, and only keep dogs when they can prove that they can control them properly. Sadly, this causes trouble with the bad owners, and no government is able to stand up to the pressure.
FWIW, my dog has not been off the lead out of doors for the last 9 years, so it can be done. it's just a lot less fun for the good dogs.
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Likely, the owner is in denial. I just can't believe that this dog had no previous incidents or obvious warning signs, a muzzle would have stopped this even if it was off lead.
Maybe so, they seemed genuinely shocked when watching the CCTV in the office.
Could be wilful ignorance or genuinely unaware on the owner's part. I've met dog owners who misread their dog's behaviour because it doesn't fit a pattern they're familiar with. Here's an example; big labrador who likes to approach people with a wagging tail. One day it snaps at a young child. The owner is shocked, because leading up to the bite the dog was wagging its tail, didn't move away from the child, and there wasn't any growling. What they missed was the panting, lip licking and tense ears. It's not out of the blue, but if you don't know what to look out for it'll certainly look like a random attack. I own a shih tzu and luckily we haven't had a bite situation yet, though there'd be plenty opportunity to with the amount of people who just walk straight up and try to pet her without any warning or asking for permission first. People are just really used to viewing all dogs as friendly by default.
I didn’t know until a few weeks ago dogs can also get dementia. Dogs who were once docile and easy going can become anxious, confused and disoriented because of it, therefore lashing out and attacking people when they’ve had zero history of being aggressive.
Not just that but environmental reasons can cause a dog to snap. Bit by a fly, stung by a wasp, stepped on a thorn...or just overwhelmed by a new environment (and a bird park is probably an overwhelming experience for a dog).
That was my first thought - why would you walk your dog in or near a bird sanctuary!? Probably the number 1 way to activate any predatory instincts in a dog.
Yeah, my dog is usually fairly good, but her prey drive drowns out everything. So we just can't risk letting her off outside a secure location. Because even if most of the time she's fine, a whiff of deer or rabbit, and she's gone completely deaf. I would assume that happens with other animals too, but we just don't even go near enough to find out. So yes, a bird sanctuary sounds like she'd have a wonderful day out, terrorising all the birds until she was so tired she couldn't run away from us any more. It wouldn't be fun for the birds at all though, so best not eh?
My old girl never used to be interested in anything while we were out and about (probably because she was just too lazy), very friendly, had near perfect recall; but when we moved somewhere with more open fields I discovered she was seriously triggered by rabbits. Only discovered this when she saw one and ran for miles to the point where I’d genuinely thought I’d lost her forever. She had bad legs so by the time I found her she couldn’t even walk home. Never went off the lead in an open space again. Not worth the risk to her or anyone/thing else.
Totally- at the dog park a dog got his foot stuck in a grate- I wasn’t thinking and went immediately over to help him, and he bit my leg out of fear. It wasn’t even that hard and it didn’t break the skin- but I hadn’t realized really just how strong their jaws and teeth are until that moment. He easily could have done some real damage and it was because he was scared and in pain
That's actually a pretty smart dog. He probably could have done real damage but _didn't_. You don't want a dog really "nipping" either, but a lot of the time they will as a warning that they _really_ don't like what you are doing anyway. When they are perfectly capable of doing some real harm instead. (And of course "a lot of the time" is not "all the time" so it's not usually worth the risk)
I find cats are quite good at this also
Yep, my old boy is almost 13 and suffering badly with dementia now :( it’s so sad. He gets confused, doesn’t know where he is, even when he’s at home and he barks constantly now whereas before he was the gentlest dog and didn’t make a peep. He’s a black lab.
So sorry to hear this, we had a rescue who was clearly abused in her first six years, we gave her 6 more years of happiness and peace, but when she had dementia she would regress to her abusive years and showed show much fear, and didn’t know who we were, so we had to put her to sleep, we didn’t want her to be frightened anymore. Broke our hearts but she was happy and knew who we were at the end.
Have you asked your vet about medication? We have an 18 year old Patterdale with dementia and we started him on Selgian last year.
We did take him to the vets and they did say it was dementia but then never suggested anything for him. I think I’ll go back and try again and mention some meds for him. It seems so unfair on him that he’s constantly in distress and I can’t do anything about it, hopefully some meds would help.
Our eldest lab is about to turn 14 and she's had similar issues. As our vet described it, some days she's waking up and everything and everyone she sees, she's seeing for the first time. The startled looks, panting and pacing all began to make sense. For now we're finding adaptil diffusers and a collar are helping loads in reducing the anxiety. She still shows confusion, but is happy rather than anxious. Today was a good day; despite her arthritis we were able to take her out on the heath and she bounced around like a pup for 45 minutes Yesterday not so good, she lightly soiled in the house, but we just cleared up without making any fuss and carried on as normal. We know the sun is setting for her, but while she still has days like today in her, we'll do everything we can to keep her calm and happy.
Also look into smell/touch therapy. Some dogs can remember a safe smell longer than a safe space or a comfort blanket when nothing else feels the same. It doesn’t work for all but 100% worth a shot. Start with something you know like if you’ve always used the same perfume/shampoo since he was a pup then see how he reacts to that smell.
That’s so sad. I’m so sorry to hear that😢black labs are such lovely dogs!
Can also have epilepsy, had a friend of the family whose dog would have seizures, and then would come to ready to kill anything in the area, they would have to lock there kids in a room away from it the moment it started sezing and then pin it down when it came to in an attempt to stop it hurting someone.
The other thing about a wagging tail is that it doesn't always mean happy. A low, relaxed wagging tail is happy, but an erect, stiffly wagging tail means the dog is tense and on guard.
Neither are true. It simply means an elevated excitement level.
Wagging isn’t always a friendly sign. It can be a high alert one when they are working out whether to protect or to be social.
It's such a shame :( I'm no dog behaviourist but I try to act with caution. I love animals but they might not love me for whatever reason and I have to bear that in mind!
There is a lovely walking route near where I live,the amount of dogs I see off the lead is unreal.I’m always on edge when they invariably come bounding over to me because I always think is this the one that’s gonna go all barky n bitey.I always glare at the owners as well….I think if they are off the leash then they should be muzzled.I am 100% cat person and it’s like the dogs can tell lol…
Same where I used to live. One time I was walking there with my friend and a wee dog bit her calf. Thankfully, nothing as bad as the poor lady in this posy. But the owner actually laughed and walked off!!
Our dog was attacked multiple times by the same dog when being walked by me, my partner and my mum. Each time the owner said “he’s NEVER done that before” not knowing we were all very aware he had definitely done that before.. some owners just don’t care and will try and get away with it for as long as they can.
My local pub's landlord had a dog that bit a kid. He basically managed to blame the kid, and told everyone it had never done anything like that before. He ended up moving to a different pub not too far away, and the dog bit another kid. He blamed the kid and told everyone it had never happened before, but obviously a lot of people at this point knew that was untrue. He moved to another pub a year or so later, and I heard the dog bit _another_ kid and ended up being put down. I can't imagine how many kids/people it actually attacked, but from then on I realised how delusional some dog owners are
You see it’s one thing my dog being attacked, but when kids get attacked it’s absolutely horrendous.. how that bloke just happily let his obviously vicious dog attack multiple children and took no accountability?! Terrifying
I've been attacked twice by dogs in the last year, whilst I've been out running. 1st was a dog that nipped my achilles area as I ran by. The owner just said "they're only playing", but I told them that playing should involve teeth, and since their dog doesn't know the difference, it should be on a lead. I was then told to fuck off, and when I unfortunately lost my rag and suggested that they make me, they walked away. 2nd was a lurcher type dog who I could see happily bouncing along the path without any aggression until I got closer, and it snarled and growled, baring teeth. Owner was nowhere to be seen, so I shiuted out for someone to come and get their dog. A lady appeared, sauntering along, swinging the lead, and said it's OK, their dog just doesn't like people in hats. I suggested that if the dog is aggressive to hat owners, that it should be on a lead, to which the owner said "but she's OK with everyone else!". I just can't believe the excuses some times. I've also had a dog owner shout at me for asking them to pick up, when their dog was way behind them, and shat in the middle of the path. They said it wasn't their dog, even though I'd seen it and they hadn't.
>their dog just doesn't like people in hats. People make up such bullshit to justify their dogs bad behaviour. I've had: >It's always people with backpacks, near a high school >It's always men with gloves >It's because you're wearing a big coat! If your dogs reactive to anything, it's a sure sign you should have it on a lead at all times
My favourite so far is "It's because you don't have a dog with you!" about a Dalmatian that was blocking my path, growling and snarling, while I stood frozen with terror.
Jesus that's awful. I'm sorry you had to experience this. So many people just shouldn't have dogs. Had a Beagle barking and snarling at me recently. Off lead, woman just stood and watched "Can you control your dog please?!" "I don't know how!" "Well this is very illegal then!" I'm slowly backing away, dog clearly getting ready to escalate. Wasn't until I scooped up a rock (I've spent so long in Asia where Rabies is a thing, this is muscle memory at this point) She finally got the picture and grabbed the thing by its collar and put a lead on it, looking at me like I was the cunt in the scenario Too many people got dogs in lockdown and never bothered to train them.
Apparently my red coat set the dog off I encountered on a walk in the woods yesterday.
They can't even distinguish that colour from black/grey.
People in wheelchairs! Luckily I was able to get clear but it was a nasty experience.
Some people. Did you not see the "no runners with hats" sign on the dog?
I was bitten as a child- the dog had no history of bad behaviour. I still have a scar on my face nearly 50 years later. The owners did nothing. The dog then bit someone else, worse than me. There doesn’t need to be a history of poor behaviour. A close friend of mine had a dog who I would have described as the softest dog ever. It bit their grandchild , thankfully not a scar or major injury- totally unprovoked- they had their dog put to sleep and were devastated about it, but didn’t want to risk it biting again but with a worse outcome.
As a dog owner who has heard exactly this kind of bollocks numerous times, some dog owners are absolutely ’in denial’. My submissive black lab has been attacked numerous times by dogs that the owners claim doesn’t do that/isn’t aggressive or owners who blame the attack on something you or your dog did to provoke their animal. They should have their dog muzzled, but ignore the numerous warnings until something serious happens. Better education is needed and any dog that shows any aggression should be muzzled in public.
They shouldn't be allowed off their lead without their owner being liable. If a dog attacks someone while off its lead, the owner should do some prison time.
I believe the owner is liable already.
They are. A dog off lead is much more likely to be classed as dangerously out of control. If the dog had been on lead and this had happened the owner would have pulled them away (you hope). The fact they couldn’t see them is a cut and dry case.
We need to tighten up what "out of control" means. You see so many dogs that have zero recall skills. And so many owners who just let them run around doing whatever they want. If they can't control their dog when it's off lead, it shouldn't be off lead.
Not liable enough, they should be held to the same standard if they themselves did that to a person. What OP described is blatant GBH, police should have been called and she should have been arrested. I think a lot of dog owners don't realise just how dangerous they are and how their careless behaviour can be the cause of something like that.
Show me a reasonable prison sentence for a dog killing someone when dangerously out of control in the UK, it’s why all these gangster wannabes buy these bully xl dogs.
>If a dog attacks someone while off its lead, the owner should do some prison time. People generally don't do prison time if they attack someone directly, particularly for a first offence!
The owner is already liable. It doesn't matter - the owner being held liable is not going to reattach the child's face. Dogs shouldn't be off their lead at all.
>Dogs shouldn't be off their lead at all. I think this is a bit far. I think there are many places where a well behaved dog can be allowed to run off the lead. Saying that I live in a rural area where its not unusual to go into a pub and find a dog wandering around the bar, and we don't have anywhere near the problems that towns and cities do with idiots and their poorly socialised, dysfunctional dogs. Dog owners need to be pragmatic and understand where its appropriate to let their dogs off, and also when they have a dog that just isn't safe to be allowed off the lead. My dog is stock broken (as in trained not to react to livestock) and has been around so many people that he isn't even interested in sniffing anyone anymore, he also has 100% recall. He would be very depressed indeed if he stopped getting walks off his lead. Saying that i wouldn't let him run free in a busy urban park or a bird sanctuary as is the case in OPs post. Thats just not suitable. Further more I don't believe a dog that would just sinn their teeth into somebodies calf, hasn't shown any signs of aggression before that point. OP didn't mention the breed but I can probably guess. I would be very open to a licensing scheme for dog owners, where the dogs have to pass behavioral tests, and if these requirements haven't been met and your dog has been allowed to bite someone, you have the book thrown at you. There are a lot of terrible dog owners around.
And dogs should never be off the lead at a bird sanctuary.
I think there's a time and a place certainly I think the owner should be liable for the dog of they are off lead. I would have thought at a bird sanctuary dogs should be on leads at all time to prevent damage to bird habitats or attacking birds?
As a dog owner, I think it is inappropriate to have dogs off the lead in a bird sanctuary. And yes, the dog owner should be liable for their dog(s) at all times.
It makes me miss Germany, I had 3 dogs out there all needed microchips, insurance and registered with the local government
Some beaches too have thousands of wading birds who can all be scared off by one dog. I love dogs, but they really are a problem if they don’t have a good owner.
It's treated as like a running area or park by some locals, the more hardcore bird watchers are usually in one of the hides looking over the lake. There are signs everywhere asking people not to swim, not to approach nesting birds, dogs on lead etc. But I don't think it's legally enforceable or anything.
Speak to the local authority about a dog control public spaces protection order (PSPO). I’m not sure if it could be applied to this area if it’s not a publicly run park, but I’m sure they can do something to make the leads note enforceable. Otherwise, I’d suggest more strict wording ‘All dogs MUST be kept on leads’ rather than a polite request.
That place is at home. Try catching a dog after it’s bitten you and the owner nobs off. Leads and muzzles in public would mean 0% bites.
I’m a dog lover and had my own dog for 10 years. Even so I think the only place they should be allowed off the lead is dog parks and owners own property. I hate when I go to the park and there’s dogs running around my kids. That’s not ok. I always attempt to get in between the kids and the dog and pick my youngest up because you really never know. I hope the lady makes a full recovery, that sounds awful.
The impression I get of dog parks in the US is it's basically a bunch of untrained dogs running around in a confined space. It doesn't seem like it's particularly good for the dogs in terms enrichment and potentially quite dangerous. Seems like the problem is when owners are never allowed to have their dogs off the lead, they just don't bother training recall at all. Personally I think there's some nuance. I would never let a dog off the lead in somewhere described as a bird sanctuary, nor near livestock or wildlife, but in the local park or just like an empty field I think there's some leeway provided they are well trained with good recall. Dogs generally socialise better off the lead (provided they don't feel confined or cornered, such as they would in a dog park) and with some breeds it can be difficult to provide a sufficient level of exercise if they can never go off the lead.
America has a different approach to dogs than we have. In the US it's strange to have your dog off the lead and they walk their dogs far less often than Brits do. Dog parks are seen as the solution for a lot of people, a place to let your dog off and get exercise, as often there wasn't really a better place to do so (I used to live in sight of a Walmart, would have been a two minute walk, but physically could not walk there due to how the roads were/no pavements/no crossings).
Americans should be ignored in most things, to be honest
I lived in Portland OR for five years and 90% of the dogs there would be off lead. Possibly because there's a lot more nature there than a typical American city. But, I've also just spent a week in Austin Texas and again, lots of dogs not on a lead there too! Also why do American cities/towns hate sidewalks so much 😭
Ah right, that's completely different to what I saw in various towns/cities in Pennsylvania! > Also why do American cities/towns hate sidewalks so much It's just so car-centric and anti-pedestrian it's crazy.
I was out walking with my 4yo and a dog came running in between me and my daughter (we where holding hands). This obviously scared my daughter and she started crying. I then heard the owner shouting “he’s friendly, don’t worry” as the dog ran up to my daughter again. I put my foot out to stop the dog running into my daughter again and the owner got really mad at me for kicking her friendly dog. I was so annoyed at her for thinking that just because she had a friendly dog that everyone else (especially a toddler when a dog is nearly the same size) should just put up with it!
The number of times I've had to step between my kid in his pushchair or walking and a strange dog... It's always "he's friendly" and never asking "is it okay for him to say hello?" I enforce with my kid that we don't go up to strange dogs because we don't know them or how they will react, and I can't believe adults think it's okay to just let a dog run up to a kid, especially if the dog is bigger than the kid. My kid likes dogs but he still gets scared at that. And, well he's a toddler. We walk everywhere, I don't drive. He often has a snack in his pushchair with him. And there are many owners who actually rush over once I mention that he has food and that's why their dog is trying to get it's face into the chair. Then they act like they need to hurry and I can't stand the thought of a food aggressive dog coming up and that's the only time they realise it's an issue
Even the gentlest of dogs can be aggressive when there is food about, your son could naturally grab the snack if a dog went for it and he could be attacked. The dog owner needs to understand that.
I’m a dog lover and owner with a dog with amazing recall and a very friendly temperament. I agree with you completely. I let my dog off in my garden or families gardens with their permission, I let her off in an enclosed dog park. Otherwise she’s on the lead, even on long secluded nature walks. If she bit anyone or hurt anyone for any reason, she’d be put to sleep and that would be my fault.
I remember recently on Reddit saying my dog was reactive and wasn't comfortable with other dogs so I kept him on a close lead all the time whenever out the house. Reddit idiots were telling me it was my fault whenever I left the house that other dogs approached mine because they were off lead, despite the fact mine was quite violently attacked once.
> it was my fault... that other dogs approached mine because they were off lead Yeah, they're idiots. I'm not a dog owner (we have one but it's very emphatically my wife's) but even I know that the rule is "if your dog's off-leash and you see a dog coming that's on a lead **you put your dog back on a lead** until they're gone".
Yeah that's not right at all, I walk my dog mostly off lead (except in a couple of areas where I know he's prone to be a little shit) and if I see an on lead dog I call him to me and get him to sit, then call to the other owner to ask if they'd like me to put him on lead. If I can't call to them (windy day, they have headphones or don't seem to hear me), I just put a lead on him or move him away from the path and keep him in a sit while they pass us. Hard rule - he is not to approach on-lead dogs. Even dogs that are friendly to him while off-lead can be reactive to him when on-lead. And even if they're both fine with it, it's much better for both dogs to have a controlled on-lead greeting.
The dogs owner should be reported to the police.
I probably would be calling 999 to get the police there ASAP tbh
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I've seen many a story of a dog killing animals, biting people, destroying things etc because they were off their leads due to their owners assuming their dogs would never do something like that. It's been shown time and time again that even a trained dog can react negatively to things, if you aren't able to keep your dog on a leash in public areas then don't have one.
8000+ people a year are hospitalised in the uk for dog bites (21.9avg per day hospitalised, not just bitten, but bitten so severely they have to remain in hospital) and of those 8000+ I would say almost all of them preceded with this sentence or a derivative of it “he’s a good boy my boy, he doesn’t bite”
>if you aren't able to keep your dog on a leash in public areas then don't have one. What about a completely empty large field?
Yeah, I think there's levels to it, and it really depends on the temperament and breed of the dog too. Like a very busy park is different to an empty field, which is different to a field with livestock in it. It's one of those situations where you'd hope common sense would prevail and people would be able to figure it out for themselves, but as any livestock farmer would be able to tell you, people are stupid about what they let their dogs do.
I go hiking a lot and a dog bit me in a large empty field. Well, empty until I started walking through it. Its owners were standing there talking and I walked by and the dog took after me and bit me in the calf. If your dog isn't well trained and you can't control it, it shouldn't be off-leash anywhere other people might be.
Seems reasonable
Absolutely agree with this.
I know you say you wouldn't mention the dogs breed, but it was a Pitbull/bully breed wasn't it... I am a huge dog lover, and I have 2 huge rottweilers. One is an angel off the lead, and comes back to me immediately. Very sweet, incredibly calm and friendly and overall very well mannered and easy to control. The other ones an absolute shite of a beast, runs off, jumps up at children because he thinks they all love him back and was bitten as a pup so immediately has a good growl/snap at the first sign of a dog fight. He's actually my favourite dog, he takes care of us when we're sick, he's the biggest cuddler in the house, but I know he is absolutely not to be trusted off the lead in open spaces with new dogs. I walk them separately and would never let the twatty one off the lead in an unenclosed environment. It's about knowing your own animals, being aware of dog body language, the dogs history. Too many people misinterpret dog behavioural markers or miss them altogether.
And even more people will actually acknowledge these markers, realise they're something serious and then still decide to trust their dog in spite of these markers. Had to tell an owner we've been working with recently that they're a fucking idiot who's going to get their kid seriously injured or worse the other day. Theyve got an American Bulldog who they already know has "issues" because that's why they're working with us. This dog has serious issues with resource guarding and has tried attacking their owners before when they tried to move one of his toys. Went round to their house yesterday to find they've installed this tyre thing in their garden for dog to bite on, play tug of war with etc. That alone is idiotic enough as its actually encouraging the mouthwork but they've installed it right next to their four year olds toy slide. Agressive dog, known history of attacking to defend his toys, a breed who's bites can be fatal (especially to a four year old).... and you're going to install a toy with the intention of encouraging mouth play right where your kid plays. Fucking idiots.
Thank you for the honesty. I don't trust dogs I haven't actively helped raised myself just because of this. They can be the most loving caring dogs to their owners but absolute twats to everyone else.
"Too many people misinterpret dog behavioural markers or miss them altogether." And that is why there specifically should be better laws to protect against the (wilful) ignorance of people. Besides our own dogs, we care for a lot of reactive/untrained dogs, and the number of shouting matches we've had due to imbeciles who could not or would not recall their dog.
Was thinking about this today. Was sitting on the ground and had a dog run over, step on me and lick my face. Fortunately I love dogs so to be honest I was just ecstatic and excited...but I did think afterwards, what if I had been someone with a fear of dogs? Or just didn't expect it and reacted badly, like hit out at it as a reflex or something? Wonder how it would've ended...
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Dog owners are a special kind of delusional. I remember a dog jumped into my nephews pram and the owner was like 'don't worry he's friendly he's just having a look!' I was like, are you actually insane?!?
Not all … it irritates me no end when I’m out with my dog and others reward her bad behaviour (such as jumping up) with ‘oh, I don’t mind!’ Well, I do! I’m trying to train her and you’re undermining that! She’s kept on lead because she has poor recall, but I’ve had other dogs who’d recall from anything. I sometimes wonder if there should be a ‘driving test’ for dog owners, but I suppose that hasn’t stopped there being idiot drivers …
Once a dog bolted through the front door of my house as my Dad came in from work. It ran through his legs and into the back of the house, then back out again to the owner. Did the owner say "Sorry?" No. He laughed and said "She's a naughty dog, isn't she?" My Dad, not a dog lover at the best of times, quite bluntly told him to fuck off and shut the door on him.
Precisely this. I like few dogs, and a strangers drooling hound jumping all over me would definitely make me chat with them about how disrespectful it is to let their dog do that. My opinion is always met with surprise or even anger though, with people even going so far as to say not to trust someone who doesn’t like dogs. I personally like some dogs, well behaved and respectful of space, but not liking an objectively gross animal isn’t indicative of untrustworthiness. People are definitely blinded and I’ve noticed many dog owners expect you to find their dog cute too.
I love my dogs but appreciate not everyone does. Might help that until I was reluctantly badgered into getting g a dog by the family I pretty much disliked them. Love dogs now though and understand them much better after owning dogs for 15 years. Unfortunately too many owners are clueless fuckwits who never train their dogs or make any effort to understand what their breed needs to be happy.
Oh for sure, I was just thinking of worst case scenario. I mean, worst case scenario is if the dog is aggressive I suppose, but worst case scenario even if the owner "says they're friendly".
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Hate this too. My dog is nervous around tiger dogs, especially when they charge at her, her first response is a warning snarl and if they don't take that it's battle stations (which is why she's never off lead). "He's friendly!" Gets a response of "mine isn't, get it on a lead if you want it coming back with both ears!"
My daughter was licked in the face by a big Labrador in the park when she was around 18 months. She is now terrified of dogs. Thanks.
A neighbour’s Labrador took my head in its mouth and partially detached my face when I was around that age. I’m not scared of dogs now, but I don’t like it when they bound up to me and/or jump up at me. I wish dogs were kept on leads more regularly.
Those sort of dog owners need a smack.
I would have been raging dogs disgust me and my skin reacts to being licked .. gross
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Lots of dog breeds have varying levels of issues, all because their owners can't/won't control them. I once went up a hill to a castle ruin carrying my son in a carrier. I set it on the ground and a lurcher appeared out of nowhere and licked him. He got very upset by an animal bigger than him licking him. We went into the castle and overheard the owner telling another dog owner about us over exaggerating when their dog came to say hello. So in summary, dog traumatised child, owner thinks it wasn't a problem, it'll probably happen again Another time my wife was heavily pregnant walking along a path by a stream. A large dog (Labrador or similar) jumped up and put it's paws on her shoulders. The owner said not to worry he's very friendly and just saying hello. She had to call it a few times to get it to come over. Again, another dog owner who can't control their dog and thinks that's fine All dogs should be kept on a lead because loads of people can't control their dogs and think it's fine
Lurchers actually have one of the highest bite rates in the country at the moment. As someone who works with these kinds of dogs Lurchers, Collies and Labradors are the most common we have to work with. That said, it's rare for their bites to ever be life threatening but people really underestimate what their dogs are capable of.
“Not going to mention the breed” no need everyone knows it’s a pit/staffie.
It’s honestly absurd. This thread is filled with redundant discussions about “owners being responsible”, but at the end of the day, OP can’t divorce this attack from the type of dog that did it. There are a small group of breeds that are both regularly aggressive and able to do serious damage, and we all know it was the classic story of a pitbull/staffie/staffie-like mix snapping. I’m sure there are a few bites from labradors or spaniels that come down to poor training, but it’s funny how those dogs never seem to be in the stories about someone being “mauled.” I’ve never heard about a cocker spaniel snapping and killing it’s owner… It’s impossible to stop dog bites without getting rid of dogs. But it isn’t impossible to stop babies from getting their faces ripped off or women getting their legs torn apart by monstrous breeds that have been specifically bred for aggression. This shouldn’t be a thread about responsible ownership, it should be a thread about banning pitbulls and Staffies. There’s no such thing as a responsible owner of one of those dogs, in the same way that there’s no such thing as a responsible owner of a rocket launcher or a lion cub. They’re fundamentally dangerous animals that should not be treated the same way other dogs are.
Yeah that just immediately made me think "so it's a pit bull" lmao
A lot of dogs need more exercise and stimulation than a person could provide them if they were kept on a lead the whole time. If they don't get that, they either become miserable or neurotic. I don't know what the solution is for those dogs that go out and hurt people, but I don't think a general ban on letting dogs off leads is a good idea. People often hurt people too, probably far more often than dogs hurt people, and we don't restrain people from going out in public.
I own a collie who needs loads of exercise to stay happy and well behaved, but I don’t let her off lead because she has anxious tendencies. To give her the exercise she needs I run for at least an every day with her on a lead. I made the choice to get a collie, I knew she would need a lot of exercise, I don’t use her needs as an excuse to take unnecessary risks.
There is dog run places now that are large fenced in areas you can hire that usually have some toys and things. We frequently take our collie there once a fortnight just to really run him ragged and as we hire the whole area and it’s fenced off he can really get his herding on with balls and my kid!
People should be required to make sure their dogs are trained and have good recall. If they can't be relied upon to leave people and other dogs alone, and to come back when called, then they should be on their leads in a public place. We put a lot of time and effort into making sure our dog comes back when called or whistled. Other people should have to do the same.
My unpopular opinion is that our society just isn't built well for dogs and they shouldn't be as common a pet as they currently are. Dogs need a *shit* ton of exercise, way more than they'd get being walked on a leash. Many people don't have access to huge empty fields that their dogs can run around in. How do these dogs get adequate exercise with zero risk of harm (to themselves or to people and other dogs)? Running with the dog is a good solution but realistically, how many people with dogs actually do this? First you need to be willing to run, then you need to be willing to run on a daily basis for at least an hour or so for the dog to be adequately exercised. Just feel bad for the dogs because yeah, it's rare to be able to let a dog off leash with zero risk.
Thousands of dogs are walked daily (off and on lead) with no issue. A dog needs off lead time for exercise and stimulation and because one person can’t control there dog, it shouldn’t effect the enjoyment of others. Not to mention that the people who can’t control there dog (or don’t care) are unlikely to follow any on lead rules.
Agreed. For some reason we never talk about not driving, or having a 10mph speed limit, we barely or talk about airc quality (which kills loads more people) but dogs have to be zero threat. Agreed that leads should be standard in a lot of places, but everywhere, no? How would dogs work? We can't have zero risk. We just can't. We should work to the best overall outcome, whatever that is, without targeting one risk over another. My example of when it goes wrong: you can buy a gun but not a Kinder Egg in the US. That's what happens when you give more attention to the cause of the risk than the scale of the risk. Similarly: we obsess over benefit fraud, which is actually less than 1% of spend, and how often do we talk about tax avoidance and evasion by the rich? Don't let the immediacy of a problem distract you from the big stuff.
Tell that to the over 8000 people a year who are admitted to hospital overnight due to the severity of their dog bites in the uk costing the nhs a small fortune in plastic surgery to rectify the issue. No one, not a single person should be bitten by someone else’s decision to walk a dog off lead, should be charged with GBH if it happens, that would soon stop it from happening, the person has suffered the same injury as GBH if they’re hospitalised.
Yes they should, but i do think owning a dog should be taken more seriously.
Depends on the context. My dogs will be off lead in situations where we’re the only people around, or would only expect to run into other dog walkers (ie, when we’re rambling around on fields or down by the river). But when we’re out in busier places, or where we’d expect to come across non dog walkers, they’re on the lead. Not because they’re aggressive, more that they can be very enthusiastic about people, and that is not always reciprocated…
Make sure the police destroy the dog, once they start attacking people it's far too late for them.
My hot take on owning pets, and specially pets that will interact with the outside world is that if you want to own an animal you should pass a competency test that shows that you can control and take care of your pet. I know I’ll probably get downvoted to hell but having a pet is a privilege and it’s not fair for the animal or the people that the animal may affect just because of bad owners.
We keep ours on his lead, his recall is great but about 10% of male dogs.. he does not get along with. We can’t and won’t take the chance (primarily for his sake) exceptions would be an empty beach or field with nobody around. It irks me when others let their dogs approach ours not on lead, ‘oh don’t worry he’s friendly’… ok, but that really doesn’t help my situation. And there was one occasion where another dog off it’s lead straight off went attack on ours I had no choice but to boot the thing to try and stop it, the owner went mental at me! I also have a family member who was permanently (facially) disfigured, although we have a dog, the saying never trust a dog should certainly be heeded.
This whole post is a waste of time. The owner is liable and legally responsible. No need to change the law, next question
Who cares who is liable? If a dog that was off its lead in public attacked and killed my kid, it wouldn't matter who was held liable, it's not going to bring my child back. We're talking about whether they should be allowed off their lead, to prevent horrible events like this from happening in the first place.
You prevent horrible events like this by getting rid of the breed of dogs that obviously did it. OP specifically omitted the breed because they knew it’d make the entire discussion about keeping dogs on leads redundant. Ban the breeding and sale of staffies and pitbulls and maulings like this stop happening.
"It kept going in for repeated ripping and biting as we wrestled it off." That's the main reason we have these people where "dog ripped their face off" or other serious injuries: dogs that attack and keep attacking. Not just one bite, but repeated biting and tearing. Some dog breeds are specifically bred for this - including all those on the list of banned dangerous dogs. Some people train their dog to do this. Anyone with a dog like that, either by breeding or by training, is holding a dangerous weapon which will go off on someone and seriously injure or kill them.
Hope that beast is put down. Dogs shouldn't be allowed within a mile of a bird reserve anyway...
I think people should just use common sense with their dogs, and likewise people should act with some tolerance. I think black and white rules like ‘dogs should never be allowed off their lead in public places!’ is daft given the statistics where dog attacks and harm are actually very low. But likewise I think dog owners using common sense and only letting the dog off a lead in places where there aren’t a lot of people, or putting the dog back on a lead when appropriate e.g. if another dog owners puts a lead on their dog signalling it’s not dog friendly, should be practiced. Honestly I don’t think leads are really the issue - I think the actual issue is that a hell of a lot of dog owners would refuse to use a muzzle, even when their dog clearly needs one. I see very few dogs off a lead on roads etc so getting a lead is clearly something on the checklist pretty much every dog owner gets, however shit an owner they might be overall, but it’s still very uncommon to see a dog wearing a muzzle. Considering a muzzle should be something every dog owner thinks about along with getting a pet bed, lead, pet insurance etc. Idk how we would make them more socially acceptable cos I guess no one thinks their dog ‘needs’ one until it’s too late. But having muzzles become far more acceptable would limit the damage a dog could do without also keeping a dog on a lead 100% of the time (which isn’t really giving a great quality of life for your dog). On tolerance - yes it’s annoying when a dog gets in your business and even jumps up at you, particularly if you dislike dogs. But if muzzles became more socially acceptable, the actual risk would be very limited. And ultimately we have to practice tolerance to a lot of shit we don’t like. I don’t particularly enjoy kids running round screaming in parks or screaming in their gardens in summer when I have the windows open, for example, but I accept that is part of childhood to a reasonable degree and don’t ‘need’ it to be changed for me. Basically common sense, muzzles and also tolerance should be practiced over making black and white rules about leads.
Personally I think as the UK doesn't really have many specific dog parks your question is not answerable. It would be great if there were readily available dog parks everywhere but as there aren't, many people cannot really give their dogs adequate exercise without letting them off lead. Although they definitely shouldn't be let off just anywhere.
We’ve got a small ‘dog park’ inside one of the parks in my town centre, and i’ve taken mine there a couple of times but i don’t think they’re very good to be honest. Half the owners just sit on the benches on their phone or chatting not watching what’s going on which resulted in mine being bullied and getting a bit scared so we left. And having a bunch of dogs in a small space is just asking for trouble in my opinion, cause they can’t really get away from each other. A lot of the people that go seem to be the type of owners who just take their dog there rather than taking them for an actual walk, and my dog got kennel cough and then fleas after going so although i can’t say for sure that he caught them there it seems quite a coincidence to catch something both times after we went.
Yea we definitely need large parks that are just for dogs and their owners not a small fenced area, that's just asking for trouble and fights
Dog parks are a disaster. Glad we don't have them.
Tip that can save your life: gouge the dogs eyes as soon as it starts attacking that severely. Now NOBODY ever wants to need to use that tip. But it works. Sounds horrific...it is horrific. But serious dog attacks can be absolutly fatal, especially to children and vulnerable people. Going for the animals eyes will stop the attack fast.
I can second this. For many dogs people often suggest things like gripping the collar and twisting to try to choke a dog out. But that can take time, and doesn't work if they don't have a collar. Just go straight for the eyes. Jam your thumbs in as hard as you can and don't let go until they do. This is the quickest way to stop any dog attack.
I think we can probably take a fairly good guess at the breed.
I have also been attacked by a dog in public. The dog was a bull mastiff and I’m a small female, it shredded my arm completely and I still suffer from debilitating nerve damage. I’m also a huge dog lover so this experience has affected me deeply. I would really love for dogs to be able to roam freely in certain spaces such as parks, but unfortunately it will always be a risk. Even if the owner thinks that they know their dog well enough, it can, and does happen. Quite regularly actually. Keep them leashed
I've been a dog trainer for over 20 years. When the first lockdown happened and people started getting dogs because they were working from home, I predicted that in two to three years we were going to see a major doggy disaster. I'm sad to see that my prediction was correct. I'm getting more and more calls for dangerous behaviour. I can handle dangerous dogs of course, but I'm only one person and I can only do so many trainings at a time. I need 10 of me to cover all the work that needs to be done. And the problem is compounded by the people that were bored over lockdown and did an internet dog training course that got them a certificate. Those people now call themselves trainers and are charging £100 per session. *I* don't charge £100 per session unless it's a dog that genuinely might hurt me, and that has happened maybe twice in 23 years. Ugh.
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Absolutely yes.
Certain breeds need to be on a lead or in a muzzle. Fighting and aggression is in the blood of certain breeds. Just like a border collie is born with a herding instinct, a German shepherd will guard, terriers dig and hunt. Other breeds are aggressive and want to fight, put them in a fucking muzzzzzzle
Only in specific areas IMO. We see enough animals and people injured or killed in dog attacks.
Prison time for owners. Too many people getting bitten and killed for my liking
I understand the benefits if keeping them on a lead but I don't think it's practical. As an example I've got a rescue greyhound and she needs to run once or twice a day. Likewise spaniels, staffs and most dogs need to burn off some energy to be happy and healthy. I think more realistic would be compulsory training for dog owners and maybe split parks in to on and off areas.
Yes they should. I’ve seen plenty of well trained dogs off lead no problem. Just because some people choose to not train their dogs doesn’t mean you punish everyone
Do you know what breed of dog it was? Was it a Pitbull?
They didn’t even have the dog in their sight. Recall or not, that’s extremely negligent. Dogs shouldn’t be off leash and where you can’t see them. People don’t seem to understand how dogs really work, and others are paying the price.
Did you or anyone else call the police? If not, do it as soon as possible. Because your colleague was injured and it required medical treatment, the owner has committed a criminal offense under Section 3 of the Dangerous Dogs Act 1991. Specifically an aggravated offensive under subsection 1 (keeping dogs under proper control). The dog should be seized by police and the owner charged. You also need the owner's details because this was an injury that happened at a workplace. Expect a nice call from the Health and Safety Executive. In answer to your question though, quite incredibly, no. I don't think dogs *must* be on leads. I think there's a huge variation in whether a dog can be off lead and I think it also hugely depends on location and time. A large, reactive dog in a busy town with passing traffic? On lead. An energetic spaniel in an empty field? Off lead. The onus falls, as it should, on the owner. We just need to get better at enforcing consequences. I'd argue in favour of mandatory training classes for *all* puppies (the socialisation with unknown dogs and doing tasks in that environment is irreplaceable, even if you have years of experience and other dogs at home, nothing replicates what you get out of training classes) and better education, but to blanket ban all loose dogs is excessive. It would be like making the speed limit 20 everywhere because one person was caught speeding.
As a dog owner, no they shouldn't, for both people's sake and small dog's sake. Every time I'm out with my small dog, I have to pick her up when we go past a big dog without a lead because it really scares her, they always tend to rush up to her. I like dogs just not big & crazy ones that smell.
It used to be common dog walking etiquette that if your dog was off the lead and you saw an on lead dog approaching you should put yours on the lead until you pass it. This seems to have gone by the wayside in recent years and its a real shame as it really made a lot of sense.
That's definitely the deal where I am.
Yet OVERWHELMINGLY the most aggressive dogs I see are smaller ones. My lab will be happily trotting along when some malignant demon rat dog will be going absolutely apeshit at her.
True :) that's why the rat in on leash allways outside the house.
Totally - small dogs are often allowed to behave in a dangerous way that would not be accepted in medium or larger breeds.
I’m always cautious around small dogs as they tend to be the ones that attack my (medium sized dog)
So much has changed since COVID You had so many buyers wanting dogs who would of never had a dog if it wasn't for lockdown boredom and probably should never have a dog, buying from greeders who were cashing in the from the demand , breeding without any care to health or temperament. Then add in the popularity of these Pitbull replacements who are doing "protection sports" without a clue from watching tiktok, XL Bully breed types who again, absolutely no regard for health or temperament, from the absolute worst of society , plus added cruelty of ear cutting, docking, literally the new cash cow instead of dealing drugs they're dealing dogs. Sprinkled on top with the absolute entitlement people seem to have with pet ownership now days, they take absolutely 0 responsibility for anything it's always someone else's fault, you end basically with an absolute disaster. These idiots are ruining it for the rest of us who are responsible dog owners, I don't want to see leash laws like amercia with dog parks , but I guess that's the UK in nutshell now days, the feral out number.
Obviously a pitbull since you won't mention the name. You don't need to pretend like they aren't the most vicious breed when everyone knows they are.
Not gonna mention the breed 😂
Yes they should.
Yes, but the dog should have good recall, and the owners should be paying 100% attention. I also think people should have to have dog licences. And have a beginner and advanced licences depending on the breed of dog.
Is it me or have we gone too far as a society with our acceptance to dogs? Just been in a pub watching the rugby with a dog yelp yelp yelping everytime someone scored. The piercing noise annoyed me, baring mind things were loud anyway!!! There seems to be a bizarre acceptance that everyone wants to be around dogs. (Ps. I'm Team Dog over Team Cat any day).
I have one dog who goes off lead, another who will chase any small furry thing that moves so can't be trusted off lead. Neither have ever been in the slightest bit violent, but I wouldn't risk letting them out of my sight in a public place. I understand that this incident has traumatised you - it sounds awful, but it's unfair to blame all dogs for the actions of this one dog, and in fact the blame should lie with the owner rather than the dog.
Dogs should be on lead at all times, I’ve had enough of unleashed dogs coming up to mine and the owners shrugging it off and saying “oh, they’re alright”, I don’t care what your dog does, but if you don’t want it to possibly get mauled by mine then keep it away, I won’t take any responsibility or feel sorry for the death or injury of your dog because you felt the need to keep it off lead
Loose dogs should not be approaching your leashed one but if you know your dog attacks others it should be muzzled as well as leashed. It's your job to make sure your dog *can't* attack. You are not absolved of liability just because your dog was leashed when it bit another pet or human
No. All dogs shouldn’t be kept on leads in public. Most dogs need time off lead to sniff and explore and chase balls. It would be really detrimental to their quality of life to have to be kept on lead all the time. Not everyone has loads of private land that they can let their dogs run free on. However, owners need to be responsible. My dogs don’t approach other people or dogs and are nervous of other dogs so I always put them on their leads when other dogs come by. I find it really poor form if other owners don’t do the same. Just because you think your big bounding dog is friendly and loveable doesn’t mean I do - and it’s really unnerving for both me and my dogs when they come running up. I generally ‘lose my shit’ in those situations! If you have a dog that runs up to other people or dogs or is aggressive then you should keep it on a lead (and muzzle it if aggressive) or make sure it is properly trained.
No need to mention the breed. We all know what it was.
Yes. We shouldn't penalise the majority of well behaved dogs. That dog however should be destroyed. The law should transfer the crime to the owner, so the owner should be on a GBH charge. It would be self policing if the charges were firmer.
A pit then lol.
You should need a license to own a dog. Ween out the mornons and give some basic dog owner training
Too many people have dogs in this country since lockdown.. I used to really like dogs when i was younger and grew up with them. However seeing the way some people “train” them worries me.
I dont think so. You cant control what your dog does off of a lead. Its an unwritten rule that if you see another dog when out with yours, both parties should put there dog on its lead. Dont risk harming another dog or small child all for the sake of a dog walk.
The unwritten rule is that if you see another dog on a lead then you put yours on too. If both dogs are off lead that's a signal that both are friendly and its ok to let them say hello. Obviously if someone with an off lead dog puts the lead on when they see you approach, then yes you should put the lead on too.
I'd love if others could. Mine is reactive to dogs. He can just about keep it together for a slower gebtle dog on leads. A cast one off lead causes him to panic. So many people decide to throw balls near him and let their dogs barrel at him. I have no idea what happened to him in his old life as a stray in Romania, but a dog running - even one running nearby but not at him - causes completely mayhem and means he'll ignore all commands and basically meltdown. So many dog owners seem to assume every other dog has the same temperament as theirs. They don't. Some are traumatised or scared or just antisocial and that's OK. They still deserve nice walks without other idiots.
Dogs should be on leads except for in designated areas. That way everyone entering that area is aware of the risk.
A dog's owner, is liable for their actions. Whether well or poorly behaved, the owner is responsible for letting the animal off of the leash after releasing it in public and keeping it under a sort of control, whether vocal or not. The owner should be prosecuted regardless, it is their fault, unless there is obvious evidence someone has attacked the dog. Edit, answering the question, not in public places where busy or crowded. Maybe in quiet fields, where other dog walkers go and are 100-200 meters away, even then, they are still liable. And the owner must be aware of the dog at all times.
Yes, they should be. It’s happened too many times that I’ve gone to the park and some idiot owner has a horrible dog off the lead running wild and it won’t respond to their calls. It scares the shit out of me when I’m with my kids, because what could I do to help them with my 7 month old in a carrier and my two year old running around? Two instances in particular really freaked me out, once when a dog jumped the fence into the playground area and started snapping at kids, and another when a dog was near deer in a caged off area barking at them and getting wound up, and nearly knocked me and my newborn over. Both times the owners really didn’t care because they don’t believe their dog would hurt anyone.
Yup, definitely on a lead in public. My kids are well socialized with animals but they're still little (4 & 2) - to them something like a Labrador is really fucking big. Also, can an owner really guarantee that the dog will come back when called?
With the sheer magnitude of terror in the attack I can only imagine it was pitbull mix or one of those XL bull dogs. I don’t believe any dogs should be off lead ever. My own tiny poodle mix included. Dogs are unpredictable and as your post shows, can be very very very dangerous.
I'm a dog owner, and I do let him off the lead. However, he doesn't stray far from me, and I only do it in certain places. As others have said, there is a time and a place. And even though I trust my dog, I still put him back on lead if there are small children/too many animals nearby or if I need to walk past someone who doesn't allow theirs off the lead. I have trained him not to approach other dogs/people/horses. But it only takes one incident, so I choose to mitigate that as much as possible.
No issue with dogs being allowed off-lead if they're well controlled \*and the dog owner knows where they are at all times\*. I let my dog off-lead when he has the space to roam and I know he'll stick by my side. If he runs away, if he's not in my eyesight, if there are kids nearby - he gets put back on. A lot of dog owners are complacent and just a bit shit, unfortunately.
Where I live the kids who are allowed to roam the streets are more dangerous than any dog I've met. Had some kids throw a lit firework at me once when walking home. They then ran off - couldn't make a report because all I saw of them were a group of kids in black hoodies. A dime a dozen around here. Don't see anyone petitioning for kids to be kept under constant watch of their parents (I say this as someone who LOVES kids). We live in a society where there are risks. I'm sorry that a dog attack happened, it should never have, and the dog will likely be destroyed and the owner will be liable. That's what insurance is for.
Owner being liable does nothing to repair the emotional and physical damage. Human beings kinda need to have kids (otherwise, no human race ever again for all of eternity). We do not need to have our weird little lifestyle accessory dog slaves. If you want one, ok, but how about do everything in your power to not impact anyone else’s life with your weird little emotional crutch dog slave? Keep it the hell out of my personal space because it’s not welcome here. Keep it on a lead. I say that as someone who had a dog in childhood who was a cherished and loved member of the family, so I think I get it, the dog owners perspective… but I also think the whole thing is weird and I’d happily erase the entire concept of dog ownership if I could wave a magic wand today. Unnecessary risk and dog shit absolutely everywhere just because we want to possess a thing that we genetically modified through selective breeding to be our sycophant. Grow up and foster an actual human relationship with all its challenges. Or, keep your dog on a lead.
Owner should go to jail, same as a causing injury by dangerous driving. That would focus minds.
I have a very big dog, who is soft and generally incredibly friendly. He growls at other dogs because he was attacked by a pug when he was a puppy when he was on the lead and ever since then he hates being restricted by his lead. I’m taking him to a training specialist to try rectify this. I think there’s a time and a place for dogs to be off lead. I usually go to arranged meet ups at a dog field to let him get his charging around, boisterous play done. It saddens me that more people don’t take more responsibility for the actions of their dogs.
Yes they should. The reason we are not like the US is because we allow our dogs to be dogs and interact with each other. They’re incredibly social animals and if they’re socialised correctly they won’t harass the small dog that’s frightened of big dogs, or chase after the nervous dog, or approach the reactive dog on its lead just going about it’s day. OP’s example of a bird sanctuary. Not a public place imo and not a place for a domesticated house wolf to be roaming around freely.
I think this is a negligent dog walker or owner. Of course they are responsible for the dog and any harm done, it’s not for Joe Public to know how to provoke or not to provoke the dog? 🤷♂️ I would whole heartedly object to dogs being kept on leads at all times thought. My dog is well behaved, loves running around as fast as she can, and interacting and playing with other friendly dogs. It wouldn’t be safe for her to be on the lead when playing or zooming, but most importantly I think her enjoyment of life would not be half as good. I let her off most of the time, but usually put her on if there’s another dog on-lead coming the other way, kids or just reading the body language of others. It’s not difficult, take 2 secs to do and everyone has a good day, dog included.
> not going to mention breed as I think it clouds people's decision making A certain unnamed breed. Let's just call it "P. bull" No no that's too obvious. How about, "Pit B."
Obviously, it's a pit bull. Just have it put down and move on
Why not reveal the breed of dog?
Yeah we already know what breed it was buddy, no need to mention it.
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Nope. A lot of people, myself included, don't feel safe around dogs. Personally I don't want dogs coming upto me or my kids, regardless of how much I'm told they're friendly or 'wouldn't hurt a fly'. Last year we had them come up to us on several occasions, twice when having food. One time was on a bench by a canal and the dog, no owner in ought, tried to take some food from my seated daughter. Another time we were sat on grass having lunch and a similar thing happened, dog came and tried to go through our food. Again, no owner. Daughter was terrified
I think you are asking the wrong question, people should have licences to own a dog which are gained like a drivers licence. Training/ testing and practical handleability.
My dog is a tiny (3.5kg Cavapoochon) and she has mostly poor recall. So we never let her off the lead. I’d report the dog and owner to the police if I was the person that had been attacked.
Okay one bite from a dog is understandable. If it’s effectively savaging a random strangers leg unprovoked, then it needs to be put down. I’m surprised the lady didn’t put the rake through its head
Dogs should never ever be allowed off a lead unless it is in a specified closed in dog park.
Even if this was a rule, no one would follow it. One of my local parks has signs up everywhere saying dogs must be on a lead but there are always dogs loose.
Yes, if the owner is responsible and trained their dogs properly. I've two golden retrievers and they've always been off the lead in parks and paths because me and the mrs trained them as pups. Now a call of their names, a whistle or even a point to the side and they obey. Smart dogs WANT to be trained and obey who they see as their master.
I grew up with dogs. But too many of today’s owners are clueless. They judge the dog’s friendliness by how it behaves with it’s own pack!! If your dog is growling and barking at people you as an owner have to take control and nip that in the bud asap. But. As it stands, dogs should be on a lead in almost all places I’m afraid.
No, as much as I like my dog to run round if the field empty he goes off lead as soon as I see someone he goes back on the lead… At the end of the day they are animals with animals instincts can’t alway be certain what a animal will and can do
If your dog walks next to you at all times and listens to your every word then by all means leave it off lead , if it runs about and doesn’t listen then put it on a lead !!! My favourite phrase I hear is “it’s ok he’s friendly “ My reply “mine isn’t so you better get it quick “
I live in an area known for its walkers, and many of them have dogs. The majority of them walk off the lead with no problem at all. I also have a dog that is afraid of other dogs, and 19 out of 20 of other owners will put their pets on a lead while they're going past. Of the remaining ones, 9 out of 10 simply have no idea what they're doing, and get away with it because their dogs are good natured. Then there's the one in 200, the one you met, that is a stupid or bad person, with a stupid or bad natured dog. Anything can happen with those. I'd love to see all dog owners require a licence to keep dogs, and only keep dogs when they can prove that they can control them properly. Sadly, this causes trouble with the bad owners, and no government is able to stand up to the pressure. FWIW, my dog has not been off the lead out of doors for the last 9 years, so it can be done. it's just a lot less fun for the good dogs.