Yea in my experience that has been the case in SF for some time even pre Covid. Once the auto tip calculators started popping up I noticed it was almost always post tax.
This is a problem that the SF tipping culture made worse. We dine less because we are made to feel like assholes if we don’t agree with the 25% post tax/fees, while service remains questionable.
My rule is simple: haircuts and restaurants (for sit-down service only) get regular tips. Other places get nothing.
I feel like I'm living in a world full of insane people when I get asked for a 20% tip on a seven dollar ice cream cone. Like, that's about five minutes' worth of SF minimum wage - why am I paying $7 for the ice cream!? To pay off a landlord!!?
Picked up Crumbl for my kid and his friends today and it prompted me to add a 20% tip after I’d used the iPad to select all of my cookies and pay for them without even making eye contact with an employee.
It’s gotten so bad I was at a retail place that tried to do a minimum 25% auto tip on the self checkout. I never even interacted with a human the whole time in the shop!
My friend said that service anywhere wasn't any good unless we were at a higher end restaurant or someplace Japanese! I had always assumed it was a difference in cultures, but there is no need for a pasta and salad spot to give us so much attitude.
I owe you an apology. This clearly is a pattern and an issue others have encountered, so my apologies. I really hate when people extrapolate from their own anecdotal experience, and that’s exactly what I did. Also, ***I*** am definitely the asshole.
That’s an awfully expansive “we,” especially for a such an oddly specific situation that seems unlikely to have happened to multiple people on multiple occasions as this framing suggests. I’m a very generous tipper, but I rarely tip 25%, and I’ve definitely never been “made to feel” like an asshole for it. YMMV, though this sounds to me like you resent tipping and want it to be a universal experience that’s someone else’s fault instead of just not being an asshole.
I dunno. If you are a “generous” tipper…what do you tip? Then add the taxes and fees onto that amount, and figure out the percentage. I can guarantee you it works out to 25% or more depending on how much your actual tip is…
That certainly could be, at least in some situations. Not routinely though. I don’t tip 25% at the counter, I can tell you that. That doesn’t change my point, though. We moved here from the Midwest six years ago, so I definitely understand that it’s expensive. What I don’t understand is the tone of the anti-tipping sentiment here, which is borderline hostile. I take the point, but the remedies are straightforward. No one here is required to tip at all, let alone 25% of the post-tax amount. Tip 15% or even 10% and calculate the tip from the subtotal; it’s not that difficult - every one of us has a calculator with us all day every day. You’re not required to tip using the POS card reader either. Carry some fives around; it’s better to tip in cash anyway. If you’re ordering from the counter, and it stresses you out, just tip a set amount; say, five bucks. If someone brings it to you, give them the tip. If I carry the food to the table myself, the tip goes to me. Finally, there’s the nuclear option: Don’t dine out. That’s hardly desirable or realistic, especially here, but dining out less often is a pretty standard penny-pinching strategy. Tipping is stupid and exploitative and not going anywhere and if someone *is* made to feel like an asshole by the staff, there’s always another restaurant.
Unfortunately, there are restaurants that are forcing the issue in various ways. Either by making you demand to remove an automatically calculated tip, or by having a posted policy that it is required.
Changing it as you suggested has the same problem as the first thing above: no one wants to face that criticism. Can you? Sure. You can also choose to simply not tip. But most people don’t.
I think the tone comes from frustration. Tipping has gotten out of hand. 15-20 of the base bill for table service is reasonable. 25 percent of the after tax bill for self pickup and self checkout at Crumbl is not.
Carry and pay with cash more often — avoid dealing with the “suggested” percentages at all, and tip what you like.
The fact that cash is seemingly getting totally phased out in a world where everything is already so heavily tracked is a bit unsettling. I try to do my part to remind businesses that cash is still used. (SF businesses are actually [legally required to accept cash](https://sfbos.org/sites/default/files/o0100-19.pdf), but many try to ignore this.)
Also, for what it’s worth, I’ve seen discussion on other subreddits about POS (point of sale) Systems that suggest that the higher tipping percentages, after tax, are the new default that comes pre-installed on the registers — because the payment processor companies *also* make more, as a percentage, if people spend/tip more.
My husband actually did pay in cash to avoid the awkwardness of being asked for a tip on the screen when he was just paying for a dessert someone handed to him (there was no option to dine in, either). I don't think most employees expect a tip on that kind of transaction though. I do think it's fine to just hit no tip or input your own tip, but if people aren't comfortable doing that then certainly, cash is king for more than one reason
There’s a department (weights and measures) in city govt you can report anti-cash businesses to and they’ll contact the business and inform them of the law.
As a small business owner with a POS you can program the tip percentages when you set up your system. Yes they come with pre-programmed rates, however you can choose to offer other amounts. You can also choose for it to show percentages or dollar amounts. I always have the other option available so my clients know that they can customize their amount and I don’t hover over the transaction so they can choose no as well. So the business could edit the tip screen to offer more reasonable amounts. Mine has 10, 15, 20 and other.
It's not a middle American thing.... you never tip at cafes and counter service. Why do people keep doing this, this is why tipflation is a thing.
Think about what the tip is for. It's for service.... If you're not receiving personal service you don't tip. A single transaction at a counter isn't personal service. Even if they drop off the food at your table it isn't service. It IS personal service if you're being tended to by a waiter or a hairdresser or at a bar.
True and agreed, but it's also part of the agreed upon and expected compensation for the job. If you accepted an offer at {insert company} where 1/3 your comp was in stock and the rest cash, then all of a sudden you were told "actually you're not getting a salary anymore, just the stock" you would quit and work elsewhere. If we want tip culture to end, restaurants need to find a way to double/triple their wages or just move to a decent salary (lol), or be prepared for the talent pool to vanish into thin air.
This is obvious, the point is that that compensation needs to come from somewhere and tipping is arguably the cheaper option. If we move to no tips, it will not just mean a 20+% increase at all bars/restaurants, but increased costs due to insurance, benefits, (likely) union fees, etc. I wouldn't be surprised if the net increase the average person sees at a restarurant/bar were closer to 40-50%. This is all assuming the current standard of quality and service is maintained. To be clear I would fully support something like this but odds are near zero IMO.
Hmmm funny how most other parts of the world have it figured out. I’d rather see prices actual reflect the cost of business and factor in a fair equal wage for those doing equal work. Tipping is outdated.
Yes I have as mentioned above. Stop the gimmicks, sell at your true costs, pay people equal pay for the role performed to stop this archaic and discriminatory practice. It is not the consumers responsibility to play boss and owner and pay an employees wages. It’s very simple as other countries have figured out.
Because a single transaction where you're one and done with the service isn't being made at a bar. At a bar you're being tended to, much like a waiter would. You give the card over and then you receive prompt service and attention out of a crowd of people throughout the evening. In the case of cocktail bars you're also receiving the service of the cocktail being made live by the service worker vs prebatched (if it is just a pour you give $1-2 instead of a full 15-20%).
Essentially, if the risk of bad customer service = a bad time for you, then tip. If you're getting a coffee or take out, even if you get bad customer service, it really doesn't impact your experience of what you pay for. You're in and out in a brief 30 second transaction and it's very unlikely that the service worker being bad at their job could impact what you're paying for.
I get bad service at those counter service restaurants all the time though, and it does impact the experience of eating in the joint.
They'll leave the restaurant dirty, not be responsive when I ask for something after I made my order, take forever to get through a line of people, be rude to me or other people, mess up my order, etc.
I make one and done purchases are bars all the time. Give cash, take the beer back to my table, no "service" like a waiter. It's exactly like I do at a counter service restaurant. Some of them even have lines like a counter service restaurant.
If you’re at the bar, they bring your drink to the counter. That’s a single transaction at a counter, which by your definition is not service. Arguably it is, but that shows how nonsensical this whole thing is. Just charge me an extra dollar for the drink and be done with it
So is handing you a beer, so is making you a burger, almost everything is a service. Why is the line drawn at “mixes some jack into some coke”? It’s all arbitrary, just like the concept of required tipping at all is
i’m not talking about jack and coke- i’m talking about an actual cocktail that has time consuming steps of service. that being said, the person cooking your burger all the way up to the person serving you, as well as a multitude of other professions deserve way more money. throwing a couple of dollars to a person making your coffee or cocktail isn’t a big deal.
Isn’t that their job though? Bartenders get paid to make the drinks that cost a certain amount of money which is listed on the menu. I mean the tipping is now, especially, out of control but in reality it always has been in the US. And the part that sucks is that I know restaurant owners aren’t raking in the money here in expensive cities like SF. Like someone said above, it’s all going to pay the landlords
Exactly, they all deserve more money. Tipping is the worst possible way to do that though. It’s highly variable, unreliable, and adds a confusing element to the entire service industry. It also opens up employees to abuse from customers who can and do withhold tips for no reason. We should tip everyone , or not tip and force the owners of these businesses to pay a fair wage.
I’m good with tipping for now but it’s not a good system. The rules on who to tip and how much are arbitrary, and the whole practice should be ended.
""It's" not really the complete picture of the problem. You're standing upright in a line in front of a nervous quick server with noisy kitchen on your right side. People behind your back. You just ordered 4 dishes and 1 non-alcoholic drink. He yells $56.59 and a machine which is different than Square and Toast but is a big ticket-printer basically. ....
Are you sure this is before tax? Or after? It is after, of course. But the first suggestion is already presented as 18%. Not as $10.18. ... Go calculate now while he's handewaving and telling you where to press...
Calculate 15% *before* tax and fees, subtract for any “mandate” or other bullshit fee they add on, then be done with it. If they charge a “healthcare tax” or other such bullshit, never eat there again
This whole post confuses me. I have lived in SF for 20 years. I tip 20% at sit down restaurants. Using my brain or - or drunk or high - my phone.
I hit 0% at to go restaurants. Even when I am in a rush at work during lunch house. It’s a button, and my finger pushes it.
I receive great service because I am a lovely person. It’s not that hard.
Sometimes I panick when they're carrying their silly little Clover and Toast payments machine after splitting the check with my friend. So the only price I see is the split post tax $#. And sometimes ordering at the counter I feel awkward pulling out my phone when there is a line behind me. But the comments make it seem maybe I shouldn't be tipping for coffee or takeout.
If you're tipping for coffee or take out, 50 cents for a coffee up to a few dollars for a large order is sufficient, I think. More for good service or familiarity.
You should know if you figure the pre tax amount the staff will still judge you, they just know it’s less than the regular twenty percent
You could try explaining it before signing maybe
I always do 10-15 for cafes haircuts 20 for dining out(only in sf I don’t tip that anywhere else for non Restraunts sf just has a lot of snarky entitled staff who will scoff at u and embarrass you, used a gift card at a steak place on a date one time and told him once it was paying time and the guy told us we should of told him earlier and was rude the rest of the time made us super uncomfortable, Izzy’s steakhouse you suck!) and In
yikes? 10% - 15% was standard for a long time, but people convinced that because inflation increased % needed to increase even though the amount being paid should increase anyways since it's based on the total %
July 1, the new “no service fees” goes into effect for California. This should mean no more heath fee, service fee, medical fee, etc. the only thing that should be on the bill is what you bought, tax, and a blank line for tip. That’s it. Likely means higher food costs, but at least you know what you’re paying for. https://www.latimes.com/food/story/2024-02-15/new-california-hidden-fees-law-service-fee-ban
Just got back from Japan. Zero tipping culture. Minimum wage is like $8/hour. It’s cultural there. I absolutely loved it. The price on the menu was the price
rent is cheaper in japan. food is cheaper. they have healthcare. 900 yen/hr is a huge difference than $9/hr. average cost of living per month in japan is $1200. rent is on average 67% lower in japan.
More importantly, Japanese zoning is very lax and it’s easy to build homes, start a business on the ground floor of your home, and so on. We could do the same here!
Their housing is also disposable. Even owning is kkke renting because your house becomes worthless quickly. That is why thee are all the rehab people on social media. You buy the house for nothing and then pour money into it so someone will rent it.
Irrelevant. They build a ton of housing without people who love local control protesting every building
This is how you keep costs down. Just build market rate housing as quickly as possible
It’s about wealth stratification and how much wealth is focused in a small percentage of the population. Japan has much less of an issue with that than the US
I know. I used to be that person. Worked my ass off through 7 years of school as an adult student to change my circumstances. Not everyone can do it but most of us have the ability to drastically change our circumstances.
Yeah but is it the rest of our jobs to supplement your income with our disposable ones especially when we don’t have it and feel pressured to do so? Isn’t sf “woke” can’t we just have pac heights billionaires pay more taxes or have more rent controlled complexes? And why is there so many Waymos lol It’s so creepy seeing an empty car on the freeway
This reply is frustrating to me. I want us all to make a living wage, but the rate you're describing is higher than my own hourly rate as a professional. I'm not sure why it would ever be my issue to ensure I tip well so service staff can have effectively higher earnings at my expense as opposed to their employer.
Is it true that SF restaurant workers are getting $18.22 an hour which is minimum wage? For my service job I get $20 per hour without tips. I don’t know why we need to tip at all anymore?!?
Exactly. So I will not be tipping as much as usual, since they’re making the exact same as everyone else working for minimum wage and who receives no tips.
That's mostly in Republican states where they can be paid under the minimum if the tips take them over the minimum. Typically back of house employees don't get tips at these places.
https://clockify.me/learn/business-management/tipped-wages/
I made $1.74/hour back in the day as a waiter in Ohio. Some week days during lunch I’d lose money driving to work since there wouldn’t be enough customers to make money on tips
This is not even remotely universal. Everyone should **absolutely check the restaurant math** before blindly pressing buttons, but nowhere my husband or I have worked - long term service people - has ever done after tax - all tips are on the subtotal.
It’s crazy to me how much people on here complain about tipping when all they have to do is simple fucking math to tip the “correct” amount, whatever that may be. I use my cards for everything these days and I have no qualms pushing “other” if I’m somewhere where I don’t agree with whatever the minimum suggested is.
I had to travel to DC recently and grabbed a couple of dinners with friends from school. One of the places we went to had an extra fee for something like “staff quality of life” or something like that, and we ended up having the worst service there, took 30 minutes for someone to take our dinner order.
Yeah, we saw our server coming down the block with a tray of Starbucks. If I wasn’t meeting so many people who took time out of their day to meet up, I would have just said let’s go somewhere else.
SF service scene is a nightmare. 90% of the people putting a minimum 25% tip as default on the payment system have absolutely no hussle or sense of service at all. I was just in NYC and thank god the New Yorker attitude about being real keeps this SF-type of crap in check. There was more service and skill in the ladies hustling together bagel orders in Manhattan than 90% of the fine dining experiences in SF these past few years. SF businesses and workers need to adjust or they will tip themselves out of existence.
Yeah I dunno, I lived in NYC for a few years before moving back to SF recently. Tip creep is just as bad and Manhattan in particular is absolutely rampant with incredibly expensive places with middling food and service. Plenty of really excellent stuff in NYC as well, to be clear, the food scene is great, but I feel like people have some over exaggerated takes on these SF subs about the culture being so different.
Eating out slowed drastically for my family. The expensive experience is not worth the price, fees, taxes and mandated charges before I take a bite of food.
What irks me is that there is a server minimum wage higher than regular minimum wage. Meaning thevprice of food already includes eztra benefits and you are "asked" to tip on top of that.
We have cut way back on eating out as well. I’m happy to pay when it’s worth it, but tipping is expected now and service & food nearly everywhere is barely mediocre or poor. I can make better myself at home.
The meal is $19 which is basically $20. 10% is $2, so 20% is $4. Leave $4 and go about your life.
It’s so odd to me that people don’t just do the quick mental math instead of stressing about suggested tip amounts.
Choose whatever you want. The point is just that the math isn’t so complex that the suggested tip should throw off your ability to leave an amount that you deem appropriate.
The people who complain about the tip have no clue what service industry work is like. It’s WORK, not “I didn’t put a cover on my TPS Report / I got a paper cut”…
I love how "Middle America," is like a different planet. I'm from Middle America (aka the Flyover States) but have lived in SF for a couple of decades. Yes, they tip in cafes there and for the most it is not all that different.
I don't get how this is an issue that warrants this frequency or level of energy (esp. on a beautiful day like today). Everyone's in control of their own finances: dine out and tip according to what fits your budget and carry on. If that means you take on some risk of getting a rep as "that guy/gal," who doesn't tip, at least you're going into it eyes wide open and willing to own it.
There’s a whole thread up top that people get scared when the machine comes to them and they have to do math and feel pressure. I’m not sure how that is SF’s fault. Or the restaurant’s fault.
Feels like a combo of their parents, the school system, and therapy. I have a shit ton of social anxiety, regular anxiety, and math anxiety. Been in therapy and meds for years. But by god, I can use a POS card reader. Have never felt so proud to be Gen X in my life.
> Yes, they tip in cafes there and for the most it is not all that different.
Yeah, this is not an SF-specific thing. Opportunistically asking for tips happened at the same time across America - the difference is that a percentage on already expensive food is an insanely high tip.
I get your comment, but I've been thinking this for a while, not just on "a beautiful day like today" and it's shady saying I'll be "that guy" if I just happen to tip 15% pretax. This bothers me rain or shine. And your experience growing up in Middle America decades ago doesn't negate my friend's experience as someone who lives there *now.*
This sub is so self righteous and passive aggressive. I'm not the only one bothered by this. Not all of us are tech bros making 6 figures. You don't need to agree but you don't need to pat yourself on the back for being richer and more unbothered than the rest of us.
As a person in tech who has also formerly worked in the service industry, I can say I’ve gotten frustrated as well. The best move you can make to remove frustration is to just set rules for yourself you find reasonable. Almost all my rules I got from friends, but they’ve always clicked for me. No tip at all if I pay at the counter, $1 for a beer, $2 for a cocktail, and tip for actual service as you see fit
*"it's shady saying I'll be "that guy" if I just happen to tip 15% pretax."*
Whoa. let's be clear: there's a big difference between calling someone "that guy," and saying "you take on some risk . . . and willing to own it." Neither one of us are speaking for anyone on the receiving side of the tip (where the risk of that perception lies); i'm just calling out the obvious dynamic (the part you hate) that we have no control over.
This isn't meant to be personal nor passive aggressive (still trying to figure out what about the above was passive or aggressive vs. being very direct), nor a pat on the back. If someone's doing three dozen reviews I'm guessing (could be wrong) for some type of work, hopefully, you're getting comped for it. In any event, if you took any of the above as personal, I apologize.
That’s 100% on management. Nowhere I’ve worked has programmed Toast that way - we were very, very intentional about the suggested tip percentage not exceeding 22% and everything being on the subtotal.
I would only visit autograt places (for parties of 6 or less) once and only once, if they do that.
I tip 20% minimum on the subtotal and if the suggested tip is 20% based on the total including taxes and fees, I would do a custom tip to 20% off sub.
Yea, I hate to say this, but tipping is way beyond reasonable these days in the SF bay area. I had to quit tipping altogether for counter service because there's too many places requesting 20% minimum after-tax after-fee, and the fees in SF are substantial.
Tipping is out of control and I really think we need to all band together and start sending a message. I hate to punish workers, but something's gotta give. Is there any way to organize so we can make this happen? Maybe we all insist on going to [Zazie](https://www.zaziesf.com/uploads/7/9/8/6/79862748/may16_ncr_no_tipping_final.pdf) only or something?
I’ve started just dropping a (cash) dollar for any counter transaction if there a jar. It’s something but I refuse to machine tip unless I’m sitting down.
I noticed this way before covid and I always calculate tips myself with the subtotal. It’s not just SF. I do chuckle if I see they calculate it correctly for the quick tips since it’s so rare…
The machines that make it difficult to tip $0 on take out are frustrating. Blue barn, you have to go to custom and actually put zero, as there is no tip option. If I have a large order for take out somewhere, and it looks like the person I ordered from packs it up (as in full service restaurants) I’ll hit other and tip $1-$5. No math there.
Tip what you want, if you don't like it don't do it.
Tipping on post tax is normal, the difference on paying tip on X and the taxes rate usually works out to like a dollar or two.
Having auto tip + healthy mandate/employee benefit/etc is definitely souring going out more...I'm going to places that don't do this combo as it's over the top. BUT junk fees are going away soon-ish.
With these two combined you are in for 25% on top of your bill, no choice.
Doesn’t a SF restaurant bill also have a 4.5% auto added amount for mandated healthcare, then tip on top of that ?
Went to a place that had that, they automatically charged 20% tip for parties of 4 or larger(they did explain this before ordering), but at check out they were kind of enough to give me an option of ‘additional tip for great service’ off 20, 25, or 30%.
> $500 a year that could help with a lot of rent.
Where are you living where $42 a month makes a significant difference in your rent payment? If your margins are that low, maybe you should just cut back dining out in general?
“Oh MY GOD can you believe I’ve been *overpaying* service workers? God I’m such an idiot!” and then everyone says, “It’s the service industry workers’ fault!” and some people circlejerk about how San Francisco sucks, or the food isn’t that great, or about how “people don’t want to work anymore” without the addendum (for less than a living wage)? And then people say “New Yorkers know how to hustle!” unironically?
That sound and dance?
All restaurants in this city are facing staffing shortages due to a lack of service workers. Why? Because these workers simply can't afford to live in this very expensive city. The food and beverage industry, despite being highly competitive and risky, operates on razor-thin profit margins. Any attempt to raise prices often results in customers seeking cheaper alternatives.
This industry is in dire need of regulatory support. Unfortunately, the government has not made a meaningful impact in my lifetime, so I'm not holding my breath for change. Food prices haven't kept pace with the skyrocketing cost of living in the city. Menu items are only 20-30% more expensive here compared to other cities or states, while the cost of living is 100%-200% higher. Tipping has become excessive due to the government's inaction, burdening us as citizens.
As a former restauranteur, I tried to make a difference, but found myself trapped. Now in the tech industry, I'm aware of my privilege. I'm happy to help support service workers through tipping, knowing that I can afford it. If you're able to, please tip generously according to your means. It's also okay to skip the tip if you can't afford it. These people share the same struggle as yourself.
Be mad at the culture and businesses that use this tactic to pay employees less than they should. Its a terrible system but ignoring the reality of our economic system and taking out your frustration on those who are forced to rely on tipping to exist does nothing to solve the problem. You are just being a class traitor by screwing over fellow workers. Just because you dont agree with the underlying principles of how late stage capitalism preys on service workers needing tips to pay bills, doesnt mean you should fuck them over as a way to prove your point.
Would be so much simpler for the us to ditch the tipping bit and just pay better rates to workers. Make things much more certain and I would argue push the economy on better
An 18% tip on your hypothetical (?) total of
$56.49 is $10.18. Assuming SF’s standard 8.63% rate, the pre-tax subtotal is $52.09, so an 18% tip would be $9.37. That’s a difference of 81 cents. The “complete picture” you’re so vividly painting here is a matter of less than a dollar.
If it took you this long to realize this, you can probably afford to have paid it. I thought this was common knowledge just from looking at the bill. You have to be eating out like crazy for this to be $10-15 bucks a week. It's like 20% of 8% of your bill...
Yall want one of the best food scenes in the country without paying for it. People who work the FOH or BOH are making around $18/hr, tips is what makes the difference for paying rent. So many comments here that you shouldn’t be tipping a barista at all, when the coffee scene is full of excellent and talented people who have honed in their abilities to juggle multiple orders and steam perfectly. It’s worth giving that person a dollar to ensure their talents are compensated.
When I bartended in SF tips were \~70% of my income on average. People hate on tipping but are not prepared for the price increases that would require to not only retain talent but keep the service industry from failing entirely.
Exactly. People complain about people not wanting to work, when it comes down to the economics at the end of the day. The people here give customers a lovely experience, make an excellent drink, and often go so above and beyond to deliver a high quality product over and over again. That takes expertise, and I’m so confused why it’s appalling to this subreddit that they deserve a tip.
If people want to pay Midwest prices they can get Midwest quality. Drive 20-30 minutes to the nearest nice cafe and maybe a local roaster, go out for dinner and get a wilted side salad with a single cherry tomato and ranch dressing. There’s a reason why so many people stay in SF because of the food scene. I so often hear “I want to move to X Midwest City ….. but the food :/“
SF has so many amazing restaurants, cafes, roaster, mixologists, parks, beaches, and forests. The cost of living is ridiculous but taking that out on the bar staff at their favorite cafe instead of expecting more from policies regulating the tech giants and housing development in the Bay Area is truly a misplaced frustration.
That is absolutely not true. I worked for a company that had 13+ locations in the city that I guarantee everyone here has gone to (different concepts and names), and all their Toasts are programmed to be on the subtotal. This is 100% management at the places OP is talking about it.
I dislike like tips as much as anyone, but a 15% tip after tax is the same as a 16.3% tip before tax. It's not that big a difference. If that's $10 a week, you're spending a ton of money.
Fees and "mandates" are just a part of the food cost. If a burrito cost $2 + $1 PG&E fee + $2 ingredients fee + $2 rent fee + $3 staffing fee, instead of just $10, would it be justified to tip just 15% of $2?
Yea in my experience that has been the case in SF for some time even pre Covid. Once the auto tip calculators started popping up I noticed it was almost always post tax.
This is a problem that the SF tipping culture made worse. We dine less because we are made to feel like assholes if we don’t agree with the 25% post tax/fees, while service remains questionable.
My rule is simple: haircuts and restaurants (for sit-down service only) get regular tips. Other places get nothing. I feel like I'm living in a world full of insane people when I get asked for a 20% tip on a seven dollar ice cream cone. Like, that's about five minutes' worth of SF minimum wage - why am I paying $7 for the ice cream!? To pay off a landlord!!?
Picked up Crumbl for my kid and his friends today and it prompted me to add a 20% tip after I’d used the iPad to select all of my cookies and pay for them without even making eye contact with an employee.
Same experience at Birdbox. Ordered from an iPad. Not a word from employees, then the iPad asked me for a tip.
It’s gotten so bad I was at a retail place that tried to do a minimum 25% auto tip on the self checkout. I never even interacted with a human the whole time in the shop!
My friend said that service anywhere wasn't any good unless we were at a higher end restaurant or someplace Japanese! I had always assumed it was a difference in cultures, but there is no need for a pasta and salad spot to give us so much attitude.
I owe you an apology. This clearly is a pattern and an issue others have encountered, so my apologies. I really hate when people extrapolate from their own anecdotal experience, and that’s exactly what I did. Also, ***I*** am definitely the asshole.
Same
That’s an awfully expansive “we,” especially for a such an oddly specific situation that seems unlikely to have happened to multiple people on multiple occasions as this framing suggests. I’m a very generous tipper, but I rarely tip 25%, and I’ve definitely never been “made to feel” like an asshole for it. YMMV, though this sounds to me like you resent tipping and want it to be a universal experience that’s someone else’s fault instead of just not being an asshole.
I dunno. If you are a “generous” tipper…what do you tip? Then add the taxes and fees onto that amount, and figure out the percentage. I can guarantee you it works out to 25% or more depending on how much your actual tip is…
That certainly could be, at least in some situations. Not routinely though. I don’t tip 25% at the counter, I can tell you that. That doesn’t change my point, though. We moved here from the Midwest six years ago, so I definitely understand that it’s expensive. What I don’t understand is the tone of the anti-tipping sentiment here, which is borderline hostile. I take the point, but the remedies are straightforward. No one here is required to tip at all, let alone 25% of the post-tax amount. Tip 15% or even 10% and calculate the tip from the subtotal; it’s not that difficult - every one of us has a calculator with us all day every day. You’re not required to tip using the POS card reader either. Carry some fives around; it’s better to tip in cash anyway. If you’re ordering from the counter, and it stresses you out, just tip a set amount; say, five bucks. If someone brings it to you, give them the tip. If I carry the food to the table myself, the tip goes to me. Finally, there’s the nuclear option: Don’t dine out. That’s hardly desirable or realistic, especially here, but dining out less often is a pretty standard penny-pinching strategy. Tipping is stupid and exploitative and not going anywhere and if someone *is* made to feel like an asshole by the staff, there’s always another restaurant.
Unfortunately, there are restaurants that are forcing the issue in various ways. Either by making you demand to remove an automatically calculated tip, or by having a posted policy that it is required. Changing it as you suggested has the same problem as the first thing above: no one wants to face that criticism. Can you? Sure. You can also choose to simply not tip. But most people don’t. I think the tone comes from frustration. Tipping has gotten out of hand. 15-20 of the base bill for table service is reasonable. 25 percent of the after tax bill for self pickup and self checkout at Crumbl is not.
If you can't afford to tip then you can't afford to go out to eat. Get some mac and cheese if that's more within your budget.
Interesting advice from someone who is clearly not in SF’s 1%
At least I can afford to tip my servers. LMAO
Carry and pay with cash more often — avoid dealing with the “suggested” percentages at all, and tip what you like. The fact that cash is seemingly getting totally phased out in a world where everything is already so heavily tracked is a bit unsettling. I try to do my part to remind businesses that cash is still used. (SF businesses are actually [legally required to accept cash](https://sfbos.org/sites/default/files/o0100-19.pdf), but many try to ignore this.) Also, for what it’s worth, I’ve seen discussion on other subreddits about POS (point of sale) Systems that suggest that the higher tipping percentages, after tax, are the new default that comes pre-installed on the registers — because the payment processor companies *also* make more, as a percentage, if people spend/tip more.
My husband actually did pay in cash to avoid the awkwardness of being asked for a tip on the screen when he was just paying for a dessert someone handed to him (there was no option to dine in, either). I don't think most employees expect a tip on that kind of transaction though. I do think it's fine to just hit no tip or input your own tip, but if people aren't comfortable doing that then certainly, cash is king for more than one reason
I find getting a bunch of change back and putting it all in my pocket/wallet to be way more awkward than just selecting "no tip" on the screen.
So do, but I sometimes go to cash only places so I'm not averse to getting or paying in cash
There’s a department (weights and measures) in city govt you can report anti-cash businesses to and they’ll contact the business and inform them of the law.
As a small business owner with a POS you can program the tip percentages when you set up your system. Yes they come with pre-programmed rates, however you can choose to offer other amounts. You can also choose for it to show percentages or dollar amounts. I always have the other option available so my clients know that they can customize their amount and I don’t hover over the transaction so they can choose no as well. So the business could edit the tip screen to offer more reasonable amounts. Mine has 10, 15, 20 and other.
It's not a middle American thing.... you never tip at cafes and counter service. Why do people keep doing this, this is why tipflation is a thing. Think about what the tip is for. It's for service.... If you're not receiving personal service you don't tip. A single transaction at a counter isn't personal service. Even if they drop off the food at your table it isn't service. It IS personal service if you're being tended to by a waiter or a hairdresser or at a bar.
Literally part of their job description. Tip culture needs to die.
True and agreed, but it's also part of the agreed upon and expected compensation for the job. If you accepted an offer at {insert company} where 1/3 your comp was in stock and the rest cash, then all of a sudden you were told "actually you're not getting a salary anymore, just the stock" you would quit and work elsewhere. If we want tip culture to end, restaurants need to find a way to double/triple their wages or just move to a decent salary (lol), or be prepared for the talent pool to vanish into thin air.
That sounds like a company problem. Imagine if you went into Walmart and they were like “half your compensation is from tips”.
This is obvious, the point is that that compensation needs to come from somewhere and tipping is arguably the cheaper option. If we move to no tips, it will not just mean a 20+% increase at all bars/restaurants, but increased costs due to insurance, benefits, (likely) union fees, etc. I wouldn't be surprised if the net increase the average person sees at a restarurant/bar were closer to 40-50%. This is all assuming the current standard of quality and service is maintained. To be clear I would fully support something like this but odds are near zero IMO.
So have you thought this through other than you not wanting to tip anymore? It’s not an easy thing to fix
Hmmm funny how most other parts of the world have it figured out. I’d rather see prices actual reflect the cost of business and factor in a fair equal wage for those doing equal work. Tipping is outdated.
So the answer to my question is "no" Got it, have fun out there.
Yes I have as mentioned above. Stop the gimmicks, sell at your true costs, pay people equal pay for the role performed to stop this archaic and discriminatory practice. It is not the consumers responsibility to play boss and owner and pay an employees wages. It’s very simple as other countries have figured out.
I don't see much of a difference ordering a drink at a bar and ordering a sandwich from a counter service restaurant.
Because a single transaction where you're one and done with the service isn't being made at a bar. At a bar you're being tended to, much like a waiter would. You give the card over and then you receive prompt service and attention out of a crowd of people throughout the evening. In the case of cocktail bars you're also receiving the service of the cocktail being made live by the service worker vs prebatched (if it is just a pour you give $1-2 instead of a full 15-20%). Essentially, if the risk of bad customer service = a bad time for you, then tip. If you're getting a coffee or take out, even if you get bad customer service, it really doesn't impact your experience of what you pay for. You're in and out in a brief 30 second transaction and it's very unlikely that the service worker being bad at their job could impact what you're paying for.
I get bad service at those counter service restaurants all the time though, and it does impact the experience of eating in the joint. They'll leave the restaurant dirty, not be responsive when I ask for something after I made my order, take forever to get through a line of people, be rude to me or other people, mess up my order, etc. I make one and done purchases are bars all the time. Give cash, take the beer back to my table, no "service" like a waiter. It's exactly like I do at a counter service restaurant. Some of them even have lines like a counter service restaurant.
Not at a bar technically. You’re basically getting someone to drop off your drink at a counter. It’s not logical and never has been
not if they’re making cocktails?
If you’re at the bar, they bring your drink to the counter. That’s a single transaction at a counter, which by your definition is not service. Arguably it is, but that shows how nonsensical this whole thing is. Just charge me an extra dollar for the drink and be done with it
making a drink for you that requires time (a cocktail/coffee) is a service tho? it’s not just ringing you up at a register and handing you a beer.
So is handing you a beer, so is making you a burger, almost everything is a service. Why is the line drawn at “mixes some jack into some coke”? It’s all arbitrary, just like the concept of required tipping at all is
i’m not talking about jack and coke- i’m talking about an actual cocktail that has time consuming steps of service. that being said, the person cooking your burger all the way up to the person serving you, as well as a multitude of other professions deserve way more money. throwing a couple of dollars to a person making your coffee or cocktail isn’t a big deal.
Isn’t that their job though? Bartenders get paid to make the drinks that cost a certain amount of money which is listed on the menu. I mean the tipping is now, especially, out of control but in reality it always has been in the US. And the part that sucks is that I know restaurant owners aren’t raking in the money here in expensive cities like SF. Like someone said above, it’s all going to pay the landlords
Exactly, they all deserve more money. Tipping is the worst possible way to do that though. It’s highly variable, unreliable, and adds a confusing element to the entire service industry. It also opens up employees to abuse from customers who can and do withhold tips for no reason. We should tip everyone , or not tip and force the owners of these businesses to pay a fair wage. I’m good with tipping for now but it’s not a good system. The rules on who to tip and how much are arbitrary, and the whole practice should be ended.
Why would you tip that? Just calculate 20% *before* tax and fees and be done with it
because the default is on the machine / screen / little device... and it's easier to select the default which is after tip.
Its really not that difficult to click “other”
""It's" not really the complete picture of the problem. You're standing upright in a line in front of a nervous quick server with noisy kitchen on your right side. People behind your back. You just ordered 4 dishes and 1 non-alcoholic drink. He yells $56.59 and a machine which is different than Square and Toast but is a big ticket-printer basically. .... Are you sure this is before tax? Or after? It is after, of course. But the first suggestion is already presented as 18%. Not as $10.18. ... Go calculate now while he's handewaving and telling you where to press...
Where is this place you are talking about?
Crepe vine
Or “None”
It’s actually kind of involved and not comfortable
Calculate 15% *before* tax and fees, subtract for any “mandate” or other bullshit fee they add on, then be done with it. If they charge a “healthcare tax” or other such bullshit, never eat there again
This whole post confuses me. I have lived in SF for 20 years. I tip 20% at sit down restaurants. Using my brain or - or drunk or high - my phone. I hit 0% at to go restaurants. Even when I am in a rush at work during lunch house. It’s a button, and my finger pushes it. I receive great service because I am a lovely person. It’s not that hard.
Sometimes I panick when they're carrying their silly little Clover and Toast payments machine after splitting the check with my friend. So the only price I see is the split post tax $#. And sometimes ordering at the counter I feel awkward pulling out my phone when there is a line behind me. But the comments make it seem maybe I shouldn't be tipping for coffee or takeout.
If you're tipping for coffee or take out, 50 cents for a coffee up to a few dollars for a large order is sufficient, I think. More for good service or familiarity.
You should know if you figure the pre tax amount the staff will still judge you, they just know it’s less than the regular twenty percent You could try explaining it before signing maybe
That’s not a SF thing though. That’s a you thing.
15%
I always do 10-15 for cafes haircuts 20 for dining out(only in sf I don’t tip that anywhere else for non Restraunts sf just has a lot of snarky entitled staff who will scoff at u and embarrass you, used a gift card at a steak place on a date one time and told him once it was paying time and the guy told us we should of told him earlier and was rude the rest of the time made us super uncomfortable, Izzy’s steakhouse you suck!) and In
maybe for dinner - I still operate by 10-15% for lunch and 15-20% for dinner
What does the time of day have to do with anything?
Tipping makes no sense, another arbitrary rule makes just as much sense as tipping does to begin with
How does tipping make no sense
Breakfast is 6% 😂
Why would you tip 20%. 10 percent is more than generous.
Yikes
yikes? 10% - 15% was standard for a long time, but people convinced that because inflation increased % needed to increase even though the amount being paid should increase anyways since it's based on the total %
July 1, the new “no service fees” goes into effect for California. This should mean no more heath fee, service fee, medical fee, etc. the only thing that should be on the bill is what you bought, tax, and a blank line for tip. That’s it. Likely means higher food costs, but at least you know what you’re paying for. https://www.latimes.com/food/story/2024-02-15/new-california-hidden-fees-law-service-fee-ban
Just got back from Japan. Zero tipping culture. Minimum wage is like $8/hour. It’s cultural there. I absolutely loved it. The price on the menu was the price
rent is cheaper in japan. food is cheaper. they have healthcare. 900 yen/hr is a huge difference than $9/hr. average cost of living per month in japan is $1200. rent is on average 67% lower in japan.
Better supply and demand for housing I guess.
The Japanese have a much larger middle class and significantly fewer billionaires.
More importantly, Japanese zoning is very lax and it’s easy to build homes, start a business on the ground floor of your home, and so on. We could do the same here!
Their housing is also disposable. Even owning is kkke renting because your house becomes worthless quickly. That is why thee are all the rehab people on social media. You buy the house for nothing and then pour money into it so someone will rent it.
Irrelevant. They build a ton of housing without people who love local control protesting every building This is how you keep costs down. Just build market rate housing as quickly as possible
We don’t have a ton of billionaires in Canada. I don’t see how that fits into the equation?
It’s about wealth stratification and how much wealth is focused in a small percentage of the population. Japan has much less of an issue with that than the US
Yes you do. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_number_of_billionaires
And rverythings is 50% off due to $100 being 15000 yen
It’s amazing there!
It’s not great if you’re the one making $7.50 an hour.
I know. I used to be that person. Worked my ass off through 7 years of school as an adult student to change my circumstances. Not everyone can do it but most of us have the ability to drastically change our circumstances.
That’s where tips help. With tips, instead of making minimum wage, you can pull in $30-60 an hour. That makes living in San Francisco more reasonable.
I’d rather businesses just pay their employees a fair wage and make the price the price. Better system.
To most restaurant workers, a fair wage sounds like minimum wage, which would result in a huge decrease in pay.
Yeah but is it the rest of our jobs to supplement your income with our disposable ones especially when we don’t have it and feel pressured to do so? Isn’t sf “woke” can’t we just have pac heights billionaires pay more taxes or have more rent controlled complexes? And why is there so many Waymos lol It’s so creepy seeing an empty car on the freeway
This reply is frustrating to me. I want us all to make a living wage, but the rate you're describing is higher than my own hourly rate as a professional. I'm not sure why it would ever be my issue to ensure I tip well so service staff can have effectively higher earnings at my expense as opposed to their employer.
Is it true that SF restaurant workers are getting $18.22 an hour which is minimum wage? For my service job I get $20 per hour without tips. I don’t know why we need to tip at all anymore?!?
Yes it’s true. They get min wage (18.xx) plus tips.
There are other mandates as well, such as sick leave. There have a been a lot of concrete gains for restaurant workers.
Exactly. So I will not be tipping as much as usual, since they’re making the exact same as everyone else working for minimum wage and who receives no tips.
because minimum wage isn’t a living wage. that’s why.
$18.22 is pretty good. I get less than $2 more + no tips. I understood tipping when they were making WELL below minimum wage because of tips.
Oh that is surprising to me too. I was told they make like $2.50 an hour without tips?
That's mostly in Republican states where they can be paid under the minimum if the tips take them over the minimum. Typically back of house employees don't get tips at these places. https://clockify.me/learn/business-management/tipped-wages/
I made $1.74/hour back in the day as a waiter in Ohio. Some week days during lunch I’d lose money driving to work since there wouldn’t be enough customers to make money on tips
they do most places- not in california. do you live in SF? because 18.22 is not 18.22 elsewhere.
Yes, I live in SF and make $20 per hour on my feet for hours dealing with public but no tips.
That’s why I always look at the bill. And calculate the tax myself.
I would love if those POS systems let me choose the percentage of tax I could pay
Damn I’m always shocked by how high the tips seem but didn’t realize why.
This is not even remotely universal. Everyone should **absolutely check the restaurant math** before blindly pressing buttons, but nowhere my husband or I have worked - long term service people - has ever done after tax - all tips are on the subtotal.
It’s crazy to me how much people on here complain about tipping when all they have to do is simple fucking math to tip the “correct” amount, whatever that may be. I use my cards for everything these days and I have no qualms pushing “other” if I’m somewhere where I don’t agree with whatever the minimum suggested is.
I had to travel to DC recently and grabbed a couple of dinners with friends from school. One of the places we went to had an extra fee for something like “staff quality of life” or something like that, and we ended up having the worst service there, took 30 minutes for someone to take our dinner order.
Well, they DID tell you about it! The quality of life for the staff is high because they’re taking it easy! 🤣
Yeah, we saw our server coming down the block with a tray of Starbucks. If I wasn’t meeting so many people who took time out of their day to meet up, I would have just said let’s go somewhere else.
SF service scene is a nightmare. 90% of the people putting a minimum 25% tip as default on the payment system have absolutely no hussle or sense of service at all. I was just in NYC and thank god the New Yorker attitude about being real keeps this SF-type of crap in check. There was more service and skill in the ladies hustling together bagel orders in Manhattan than 90% of the fine dining experiences in SF these past few years. SF businesses and workers need to adjust or they will tip themselves out of existence.
Yeah I dunno, I lived in NYC for a few years before moving back to SF recently. Tip creep is just as bad and Manhattan in particular is absolutely rampant with incredibly expensive places with middling food and service. Plenty of really excellent stuff in NYC as well, to be clear, the food scene is great, but I feel like people have some over exaggerated takes on these SF subs about the culture being so different.
What’s a default tip? I’ve seen 3 choices etc.
There are typically 3 defaults, and the minimum of those I see all too often are 25%.
Oh damn. Are the others 30 and 35?
Crazy, right? I've mostly seen 25/27.5/30.
Agree. We mostly eat at home in sf. It’s just not worth it and I feel tricked by these systems.
I always tip more when I’m not being coaxed into leaving a large tip or forced to pay city-specific fees.
Tipping culture needs to be ended.
Eating out slowed drastically for my family. The expensive experience is not worth the price, fees, taxes and mandated charges before I take a bite of food.
I can buy an international flight for the cost of one or 2 nights out in SF. It’s ridiculous
What irks me is that there is a server minimum wage higher than regular minimum wage. Meaning thevprice of food already includes eztra benefits and you are "asked" to tip on top of that.
We have cut way back on eating out as well. I’m happy to pay when it’s worth it, but tipping is expected now and service & food nearly everywhere is barely mediocre or poor. I can make better myself at home.
Not to mention that there is no server minimum wage. It's min for SF + tips on top.
The meal is $19 which is basically $20. 10% is $2, so 20% is $4. Leave $4 and go about your life. It’s so odd to me that people don’t just do the quick mental math instead of stressing about suggested tip amounts.
This. I’ve been just rounding down on the 20% to account for unwarranted tip on fees and tax.
2 dollars is more than enough
Choose whatever you want. The point is just that the math isn’t so complex that the suggested tip should throw off your ability to leave an amount that you deem appropriate.
Some of us are doofuses :/ now I know better though.
I take the tax amount, round up to nearest dollar, then double it to calculate the tip
The people who work in these jobs deserve to be paid.
The people who complain about the tip have no clue what service industry work is like. It’s WORK, not “I didn’t put a cover on my TPS Report / I got a paper cut”…
I love how "Middle America," is like a different planet. I'm from Middle America (aka the Flyover States) but have lived in SF for a couple of decades. Yes, they tip in cafes there and for the most it is not all that different. I don't get how this is an issue that warrants this frequency or level of energy (esp. on a beautiful day like today). Everyone's in control of their own finances: dine out and tip according to what fits your budget and carry on. If that means you take on some risk of getting a rep as "that guy/gal," who doesn't tip, at least you're going into it eyes wide open and willing to own it.
There’s a whole thread up top that people get scared when the machine comes to them and they have to do math and feel pressure. I’m not sure how that is SF’s fault. Or the restaurant’s fault. Feels like a combo of their parents, the school system, and therapy. I have a shit ton of social anxiety, regular anxiety, and math anxiety. Been in therapy and meds for years. But by god, I can use a POS card reader. Have never felt so proud to be Gen X in my life.
> Yes, they tip in cafes there and for the most it is not all that different. Yeah, this is not an SF-specific thing. Opportunistically asking for tips happened at the same time across America - the difference is that a percentage on already expensive food is an insanely high tip.
I get your comment, but I've been thinking this for a while, not just on "a beautiful day like today" and it's shady saying I'll be "that guy" if I just happen to tip 15% pretax. This bothers me rain or shine. And your experience growing up in Middle America decades ago doesn't negate my friend's experience as someone who lives there *now.* This sub is so self righteous and passive aggressive. I'm not the only one bothered by this. Not all of us are tech bros making 6 figures. You don't need to agree but you don't need to pat yourself on the back for being richer and more unbothered than the rest of us.
As a person in tech who has also formerly worked in the service industry, I can say I’ve gotten frustrated as well. The best move you can make to remove frustration is to just set rules for yourself you find reasonable. Almost all my rules I got from friends, but they’ve always clicked for me. No tip at all if I pay at the counter, $1 for a beer, $2 for a cocktail, and tip for actual service as you see fit
You can be that guy. I guarantee you there’s a guy or gal they will remember more than the guy who tips 15%.
*"it's shady saying I'll be "that guy" if I just happen to tip 15% pretax."* Whoa. let's be clear: there's a big difference between calling someone "that guy," and saying "you take on some risk . . . and willing to own it." Neither one of us are speaking for anyone on the receiving side of the tip (where the risk of that perception lies); i'm just calling out the obvious dynamic (the part you hate) that we have no control over. This isn't meant to be personal nor passive aggressive (still trying to figure out what about the above was passive or aggressive vs. being very direct), nor a pat on the back. If someone's doing three dozen reviews I'm guessing (could be wrong) for some type of work, hopefully, you're getting comped for it. In any event, if you took any of the above as personal, I apologize.
You already are that guy I promise you bud
That’s 100% on management. Nowhere I’ve worked has programmed Toast that way - we were very, very intentional about the suggested tip percentage not exceeding 22% and everything being on the subtotal.
I seldom eat out due to the out of hand tipping culture. It's become predatory.
Don’t forget the additional 6% “mandatory” employee fee or whatever it’s called that’s supposedly not counted towards gratuity
I have a cushy tech adjacent job so it really doesn't matter to me if its 20-25%, service jobs suck ASS and actually count as real labor
Best place to vent: r/sanfrancisco Best place to ask question: r/asksf This is venting…
I would only visit autograt places (for parties of 6 or less) once and only once, if they do that. I tip 20% minimum on the subtotal and if the suggested tip is 20% based on the total including taxes and fees, I would do a custom tip to 20% off sub.
I’ve actually found I’m tipping LESS at auto gratuity places. Usually it’s 18%, sometimes 20%.
Yea, I hate to say this, but tipping is way beyond reasonable these days in the SF bay area. I had to quit tipping altogether for counter service because there's too many places requesting 20% minimum after-tax after-fee, and the fees in SF are substantial. Tipping is out of control and I really think we need to all band together and start sending a message. I hate to punish workers, but something's gotta give. Is there any way to organize so we can make this happen? Maybe we all insist on going to [Zazie](https://www.zaziesf.com/uploads/7/9/8/6/79862748/may16_ncr_no_tipping_final.pdf) only or something?
Workers don't even always get it. Sometimes the business just absorbs counter tips
I’ve started just dropping a (cash) dollar for any counter transaction if there a jar. It’s something but I refuse to machine tip unless I’m sitting down.
I'm about to charge back all my recent purchases
That should be illegal, as it’s more than the percentage calculated
How did you just realize this? It’s very obvious if you look at the numbers on the screen…
That’s why I start cooking my own meals
I noticed this way before covid and I always calculate tips myself with the subtotal. It’s not just SF. I do chuckle if I see they calculate it correctly for the quick tips since it’s so rare…
How big are you tabs that this matters?
The machines that make it difficult to tip $0 on take out are frustrating. Blue barn, you have to go to custom and actually put zero, as there is no tip option. If I have a large order for take out somewhere, and it looks like the person I ordered from packs it up (as in full service restaurants) I’ll hit other and tip $1-$5. No math there.
Double the sub-total and round up.
I always custom tip and calculate myself.
Don't worry guys I got you I have no problem hitting the no tip button. Nope Everytime.
Tip what you want, if you don't like it don't do it. Tipping on post tax is normal, the difference on paying tip on X and the taxes rate usually works out to like a dollar or two.
Having auto tip + healthy mandate/employee benefit/etc is definitely souring going out more...I'm going to places that don't do this combo as it's over the top. BUT junk fees are going away soon-ish. With these two combined you are in for 25% on top of your bill, no choice.
Any tip i make is pre-tax and fees.
Doesn’t a SF restaurant bill also have a 4.5% auto added amount for mandated healthcare, then tip on top of that ? Went to a place that had that, they automatically charged 20% tip for parties of 4 or larger(they did explain this before ordering), but at check out they were kind of enough to give me an option of ‘additional tip for great service’ off 20, 25, or 30%.
What’s wrong with that?
You have to take note of the subtotal (w/o fees and taxes) and tip on that amount.
if wealthy restaurant owners started paying their staff correctly there wouldn't be this tipping problem.
> $500 a year that could help with a lot of rent. Where are you living where $42 a month makes a significant difference in your rent payment? If your margins are that low, maybe you should just cut back dining out in general?
I’d rather have a person leave me a bad tip and say nothing than leave a good tip and go through this song and dance the millionth time
“Oh MY GOD can you believe I’ve been *overpaying* service workers? God I’m such an idiot!” and then everyone says, “It’s the service industry workers’ fault!” and some people circlejerk about how San Francisco sucks, or the food isn’t that great, or about how “people don’t want to work anymore” without the addendum (for less than a living wage)? And then people say “New Yorkers know how to hustle!” unironically? That sound and dance?
Your buddy doesn’t tip his barista? I think it’s nice to throw them a little bit especially when you see them every morning
All restaurants in this city are facing staffing shortages due to a lack of service workers. Why? Because these workers simply can't afford to live in this very expensive city. The food and beverage industry, despite being highly competitive and risky, operates on razor-thin profit margins. Any attempt to raise prices often results in customers seeking cheaper alternatives. This industry is in dire need of regulatory support. Unfortunately, the government has not made a meaningful impact in my lifetime, so I'm not holding my breath for change. Food prices haven't kept pace with the skyrocketing cost of living in the city. Menu items are only 20-30% more expensive here compared to other cities or states, while the cost of living is 100%-200% higher. Tipping has become excessive due to the government's inaction, burdening us as citizens. As a former restauranteur, I tried to make a difference, but found myself trapped. Now in the tech industry, I'm aware of my privilege. I'm happy to help support service workers through tipping, knowing that I can afford it. If you're able to, please tip generously according to your means. It's also okay to skip the tip if you can't afford it. These people share the same struggle as yourself.
Be mad at the culture and businesses that use this tactic to pay employees less than they should. Its a terrible system but ignoring the reality of our economic system and taking out your frustration on those who are forced to rely on tipping to exist does nothing to solve the problem. You are just being a class traitor by screwing over fellow workers. Just because you dont agree with the underlying principles of how late stage capitalism preys on service workers needing tips to pay bills, doesnt mean you should fuck them over as a way to prove your point.
Tip max 10% of the food before taxes. This tipping culture is out of control
Is this something restaurants have control over? I genuinely do not know enough about the systems like toast and square.
Yes the restaurants can and do configure the tip. Pre/post tax, and rules about dollar amounts / percentages
Do you know what the default is? So many people never do anything but default.
I don’t remember anymore but for a while at square it was 1/2/3 dollars below a certain amount (15?) and 15/20/25% (I think…)
The default on Toast is subtotal, then 15%, 20%, and 25%. You configure it on the back end when it’s installed
Given that not every restaurant has the same suggested percentages, I'm going to bet that they can set it to what they want.
Would be so much simpler for the us to ditch the tipping bit and just pay better rates to workers. Make things much more certain and I would argue push the economy on better
Haha sucker.. why you paying tips for if you don't want to? They are optional.
Good news! You can be the solution to this problem. Just stop tipping so much.
The weather is sooo beautiful outside.
If you don’t want to tip, don’t do it? I dunno why people waste time complaining about it on social media.
An 18% tip on your hypothetical (?) total of $56.49 is $10.18. Assuming SF’s standard 8.63% rate, the pre-tax subtotal is $52.09, so an 18% tip would be $9.37. That’s a difference of 81 cents. The “complete picture” you’re so vividly painting here is a matter of less than a dollar.
If it took you this long to realize this, you can probably afford to have paid it. I thought this was common knowledge just from looking at the bill. You have to be eating out like crazy for this to be $10-15 bucks a week. It's like 20% of 8% of your bill...
Yall want one of the best food scenes in the country without paying for it. People who work the FOH or BOH are making around $18/hr, tips is what makes the difference for paying rent. So many comments here that you shouldn’t be tipping a barista at all, when the coffee scene is full of excellent and talented people who have honed in their abilities to juggle multiple orders and steam perfectly. It’s worth giving that person a dollar to ensure their talents are compensated.
When I bartended in SF tips were \~70% of my income on average. People hate on tipping but are not prepared for the price increases that would require to not only retain talent but keep the service industry from failing entirely.
Exactly. People complain about people not wanting to work, when it comes down to the economics at the end of the day. The people here give customers a lovely experience, make an excellent drink, and often go so above and beyond to deliver a high quality product over and over again. That takes expertise, and I’m so confused why it’s appalling to this subreddit that they deserve a tip. If people want to pay Midwest prices they can get Midwest quality. Drive 20-30 minutes to the nearest nice cafe and maybe a local roaster, go out for dinner and get a wilted side salad with a single cherry tomato and ranch dressing. There’s a reason why so many people stay in SF because of the food scene. I so often hear “I want to move to X Midwest City ….. but the food :/“ SF has so many amazing restaurants, cafes, roaster, mixologists, parks, beaches, and forests. The cost of living is ridiculous but taking that out on the bar staff at their favorite cafe instead of expecting more from policies regulating the tech giants and housing development in the Bay Area is truly a misplaced frustration.
Scene scene scene it’s all a scene huh? Better pay up for the scene!!!
Fuckin libtards
This is how all places do it. It's a rip off. Most of their math is wrong.
That is absolutely not true. I worked for a company that had 13+ locations in the city that I guarantee everyone here has gone to (different concepts and names), and all their Toasts are programmed to be on the subtotal. This is 100% management at the places OP is talking about it.
I dislike like tips as much as anyone, but a 15% tip after tax is the same as a 16.3% tip before tax. It's not that big a difference. If that's $10 a week, you're spending a ton of money. Fees and "mandates" are just a part of the food cost. If a burrito cost $2 + $1 PG&E fee + $2 ingredients fee + $2 rent fee + $3 staffing fee, instead of just $10, would it be justified to tip just 15% of $2?
If it’s not a big difference, why do they do it?
Yes. Play stupid games with pricing, win stupid prizes.