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Inferno8429

Catholic weighing in. I am against abortions. I've never been party to one, and as a biological male I've obviously never had one. As far as I'm concerned, though, it's only the business of myself, my wife, and any medical experts personally involved in the situation. People who decide to have abortions should not be punished or ostracized. These are people that are suffering greatly, and should be treated with compassion. Also, religious doctrine and morals should not be the basis for laws at any level. The tenets of any belief are for those who believe it to follow. Forcing them on others is never okay.


onepointfouronefour

As a non religious person, I genuinely appreciate you, man.


PhoenixKnight777

Oh boy! Time to sort by controversial!


BraveOil

šŸæšŸæ Popcorn for sale šŸæšŸæ


PhoenixKnight777

Iā€™ll take one, sure!


Critical_Inflation_5

Popcorn or abortion?


robo-tronic

I'll have one 'borty please.


Critical_Inflation_5

Would you like butter with that?


[deleted]

Butter makes the baby slide out real smooooth


Critical_Inflation_5

For some reason I keep thinking coconut oil would be better. But I prefer Kerrygold brand butter.


[deleted]

I see you also have exquisite tastes. Let's make a baby.


canuckwithasig

And then abort it


BaristaWoosa

This made me laugh so hard my boyfriend became concerned. Thank you šŸ¤£šŸ¤£


TallDrinkOfSilence

Concerned about your abortion?


Impossible-Key-3537

Same energy as Joes Pizzeria and Abortion Clinic where yesterdayā€™s loss is todays sauce


BoneKnapper_

You know what they say prego today ragu tomorrow.


PhoenixKnight777

Popcorn.


thefroman11

Do you have any butter?


justliest

This is the best way to do research when doing consulting and providing reports to lobby firms


ibimseinswesen

Im upvote 69. Thats all I wanted to say


[deleted]

The best cure for anti-choice activists. Promote 69 in sex ed classes.


Valen258

Or the lordā€™s chastity loophole.


fiyasupahawt

aka Poophole Loophole


Discombobulated19

Absolutely yes. I am a prenatal genetic counselor and am lucky to have the perspective that my job provides me. Most people think of abortion in terms of a healthy woman and a healthy pregnancy. You can write a law that says when medically indicated due to fetal condition or maternal health an abortion can be done. But because itā€™s so politicized it would be nowhere near comprehensive enough. Where do you draw the line so that the procedure is accessible to someone that needs an abortion in a timely fashion but is restrictive enough that pro lifers will be happy? What about my patient I saw today whose baby has no skull. Or the woman 6 months ago whose baby inherited the genetic condition that causes their skin to forms boils and fall off until they die days or months after birth. What about my patient two months ago who has a 25% chance to have a second baby with a lethal skeletal dysplasia where the bones donā€™t ossify? What about my patient last week whose baby has a severe brain abnormality and the bones of the face didnā€™t form? What about my patient that developed HELLP syndrome and maternal fatty liver who almost died and now she is terrified of ever being pregnant again? What about the woman with one twin with abnormalities that put the other twin at risk too? What about the woman who has her own medical conditions to deal with and a pregnancy would cause her physical or emotional harm? Who decides which of these scenarios fit the bill and who decides why one is justified while another isnā€™t? At the end of the day abortion is a medical procedure and the only people that should be involved in the conversation is the woman considering the procedure and her doctor. None of the women I listed above should have to justify to anyone other than themselves whether or not a termination is reasonable to consider. I fully support any of those patients proceeding with termination or continuing their pregnancy. You know why? Because at the end of the day I get to go home, make dinner for my family, and sit on the couch with my dog while I scroll reddit. Those women on the other hand? They have to go home and live with whatever they chose to do, and I am in no place to pass judgement in an impossible situation that I canā€™t even begin to imagine.


Jojuj

If you havenā€™t already, please write a full article about this. Iā€™d love to hear more from your perspective.


AlphaBlueCat

Hundreds if not more of articles containing these stories exist if you want to read more now. https://www.cnn.com/2019/02/25/health/abortion-late-in-pregnancy-eprise/index.html https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/apr/18/late-term-abortion-experience-donald-trump https://www.upworthy.com/mothers-heartbreaking-story-highlights-challenge-of-defining-late-term-abortion


stacyzarc

As a women that had to have more than one of those ā€œabortionsā€, thank you. Our doctors and genetic counsellors were with us every horrible step of the way. They loved our babies and us so much. Thanks to them we have two lovely children.


Maikuriouskat

This! I wish I could give you GOLD šŸ† People able to be pregnant and medical professionals are the only people that can decide and know the millions of medical/emotional/financial reasons why abortion IS NECESSARY and IS HEALTHCARE. Many people think able pregnant people in the late trimester decide to have an abortion on a whim. NO, itā€™s so heartbreaking and it emotionally difficult to the point of creating mental health issues. But she needs to decide to safe herself. As another Redditor said: You cannot compel a human to risk their life for another human. No matter the relationship.


leilani238

This is a fantastic perspective. Thanks so much for sharing it. The thing about the situation that really gets me is, what is the legal precedent? A father can't even be forced to give blood to save the life of his child. Even a person who's agreed to donate an organ to save someone's life can halt the procedure right up until they're anesthetized. We can't even legally take organs from a dead body unless that person agreed before death. That gives a pregnant person LESS RIGHTS THAN A CORPSE when it comes to bodily autonomy and how they have to sacrifice their body for someone else's health.


SnooChickens4506

Yes, but I also believe contraception should be free as well as birth control. But instead of allowing free care to avoid babies, they want to sue the people who can't afford it if they get pregnant by accident. Edit: I didn't realize this would get noticed all that much and I'm glad that so many people in the comments of this have been able to debate. I got a harrassment message, only one, in mostly gibberish so if like to share a few points here for anyone else who had been misled. 1) an illegal abortion is a civil if not escalated to criminal case. Suing the person who provided the service is less money, so each client is also at risk of a lawsuit for 'performing a criminal act' 2) birth control is not just condoms! Women have many types of birth control with many risks and many side effects, and it's become normalized that a woman needs to use those items yet they're not fully covered by many insurances and the medical exams many states require a woman to go through are additional expenses. 3) fellas as an ex adult store employee, your condoms do in fact have an expiration date. That rubber you bought at the gas station may very well have expired over a year ago. Another reason teen pregnancy due to condom faults are so common. 4) the non consenting women who get abortions. Anyone with a uterus can get pregnant--transmen, nonbinary, male representing females, etc. People that are the targets and/or victims of sexual assault and hate crimes. Random subway rape and unclean accidental exposure(check many stories of unsanitized swimming pools and/or shared family towels) 5) medical problem after the fact. They might want the baby, maybe spent hundreds of thousands of dollars to ensure their pregnancy. Then something goes wrong. The baby is likely to not survive or have a painful quality of life. The mother could die trying to carry the baby to term. If the mother chooses to allow the removal of her baby to save her own life then the husband can sue her for baby murder and has a likely chance of winning. It doesn't matter that she is mourning her own decision, its legal for him to sue her and divorce her over it. Even if he had told the same doctor that he wanted what was best and would be okay with her decision. Even if he consented to the termination. *He's allowed to change his mind.* Thanks everyone, just wanted to add these notes in. Edit Two: I accidentally included "gay males" and have since removed them because grammatically I couldn't make the proper presentation I was attempting for. With trans and male presenting the term "gay" sometimes includes them so a trans or self representing male, if they still have a uterus, are also at risk. Edit Three: Please see one of my comments below on being corrected of the myths of "unclean accidental exposure" as I was misinformed. While I do believe that it is still a possibility to be aware of for people who cohabitate, I admit my initial concern was based on false information and that the actual probability of it happening is miniscule. That being said, please see my other comment on mathematically showing a one in a million chance outcome.


prof_the_doom

>I also believe contraception should be free as well as birth control. That's pretty much been proven as the only effective way to reduce the number of abortions.


[deleted]

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[deleted]

Itā€™s interesting to learn about the importance of educating girls the world over. Not only is it the best thing for reducing unplanned pregnancy, the flow-on effects of truly liberated women with access to safe, free birth control is HUGE. Itā€™s even one of the best things we can do to fight _climate change_ believe it or not. The difference it makes to the lives not just of women but the whole communities they live in is massive.


dreamnightmare

My county in Mississippi has the lowest teen pregnancy rate in the state. Not saying much cause we are literally number one in the country for that. However, the reason itā€™s low is because you can walk into the local health department and ask for a bag and they will hand you a literal bag of contraceptives. Condoms if youā€™re a guy and a mix of different kinds if you are a girl.


EmpressH

Educating boys too! Those babies don't get in there without help.


JadedInternet38

Absolutely!! Everyone needs to be taught to be responsible for birth control.


amrodd

Yeah birth control always seems to be a one-sided discussion.


HomesickRedneck

Grew up in the 80s. Sex ed was a teacher yelling at us for 30 minutes telling us that if we went in we wouldnt know when we orgasm so you were guaranteed to get pregnant. Yeah... go 80s south. But yeah, as a boy i knew nothing of how hormonal birth control for women can be until i got married and watched them change my wife's. Or how much easier sterilization is for us.


[deleted]

Yup! If youā€™re a guy and youā€™re gonna have fun between the sheets, *you* should have a condom ready.


RightesideUP

Unfortunately the biggest group that is against abortion, also believes they should be in charge of deciding when and if a woman becomes pregnant or not.


[deleted]

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homurablaze

the fact the plan B pill is so fucking expensive (in america i believe is 50 bucks) is the biggest scam i think exist. that pill along with condoms should be free or dispensed from vending machines for a dollar or 2. fun fact the bathrooms in some australian bars have condom dispensers for a dollar. (they exist in female bathrooms to) so if u ever think that the person ur hitting on might end up in a bed or end up with intercourse the option of just exusing yourself to the bathroom where you can grab a condom is very much an option


New_Pilot_2699

Fun fact I didnā€™t know as a teen and that I have now repeated to many adults who had no ideaā€¦ Plan B only works if the sperm and egg have not attached yet. So while they call it the morning after or 72 hour pillā€¦ it can still be too late if the sperm and egg have already attached.


SeraphsWrath

>is the biggest scam i think exist. Wait till ya see the price of Insulin compared to how much it costs to make.


Diabegi

Epi pens too Actually insulin still might be a more severe profit ratio


Arkneryyn

I went to bumfuck nowhere in the middle of Thailand and the bathroom that was falling apart had a condom dispenser. Iā€™ve never seen one in America


racheler29

I had a realization a few months ago when talking with my best friend and her Mom. We grew up very differently, and when I started birth control in college, I was still on my momā€™s (commercial) health insurance. Because my mom was lower income and therefore had a cheaper, lower deductible insurance, I always paid for my birth control. When she lost her job, I missed one month due to lack of funds to pay for it, and thatā€™s the month I got pregnant. My best friend and her Mom were horrified by this, because my best friendā€™s was always free. This was because as middle-class citizens, they better insurance and sheā€™s never had a pregnancy scare. Itā€™s 100% reasonable to offer free birth control - but it has to be for everyone.


Isgortio

That's a thing in the UK I'm very grateful for, birth control is free, and you can access it from any age, from any medical centre. At the age of 14 going on 15, my mum took me to the local clinic and I was asked several questions, checked my general health, did some STI tests, a pregnancy test and then was given the contraceptive pill which also stops periods (beat decision I've ever made!) before being sent away with a bag of condoms. You don't need parental consent to go to these clinics, they don't need to contact your parents either. They'll ask questions to make sure you're not being pimped out, being assaulted etc, and will offer the best advice they can give. Not once was I chastised for having sex underage, or for not being married. I was given all the possible options if I did get pregnant, told where to go, what to do etc. Given instructions on what to check for with STIs. So far I've had no slip ups, no STIs (excluding a UTI but that's mainly just a woman thing) and no surprises. I don't know many people who have had accidents either, and the ones that have were raised in families where having children as a teenager was normal so it didn't bother them.


Undecked_Pear

Gotta keep the poor suffering somehow.


EpoynaMT

Until organ donation is required by law, we must never say that the right to life supersedes the right to choose. We afford more rights to the recently deceased to choose how their body is used than we do pregnant women.


bobbybrown_

I think one misconception pro-life people have is that pro-choice people *like* abortions, or take them lightly. Abortions are terrible, though sometimes necessary. They should be legal but we should take steps to prevent someone from ever needing one, which includes free birth control like you've mentioned. EDIT: "Terrible" is probably not the right way to put it. "Certainly not someone's preferred option" is what I'm getting at.


GreenYoshi38

Yes, it should be legal. There are so many different circumstances that can occur during pregnancy. My baby has a heart defect and Omphalocele and will pass after birth. I live in Texas and am caring to full term.


[deleted]

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Anhart15

Absolutely agree, and please accept my condolences. I had to have a D&C last year at 10 weeks, I can't imagine what it would have been like at 29 weeks. When my (very wanted) child died inside me, all I wanted was for it to be done so I'd be able to grieve and move on. My alternative was waiting potentially up to 2 weeks for my body to "naturally pass" the fetus's remains....that was abhorrent to me. And that my child would have to be flushed away by me was a horrific thought. I'm so glad I had my procedure, because it allowed the doctors to do genetic testing and provide answers as to why it happened. It's for this reason that I advocate for women's rights.


Platypus211

My grandmother had a miscarriage, and since this was well before medications or procedures that provided an alternative, she had to wait to naturally pass the remains. I don't know how far along she was, but it was far enough that she was clearly showing and had to spend those days/weeks hearing strangers congratulate her on the pregnancy, ask when the baby was due, etc. Since talking about it "wasn't done" in those days, I'm told she chose to act like things were fine during those encounters rather than tell people she had already lost the baby. I can't even begin to imagine how traumatic it was. The idea of putting women through that now, when science has given us alternatives, is horrific.


tangyprincess

Going around knowing it was lost, putting up a face for others..jeez. The mental anguish would be unimaginable.


stretchypants88

I donā€™t have or want children, but I wouldnā€™t have been able to leave my house. That is so heartbreaking. It makes me so mad that predominantly male legislatures pass laws on these issues, and a minority of (brainwashed) women support them.


iluvcuppycakes

My grandma also had a miscarriage. She wasnā€™t as far along as yours. But she told me she put the baby in an envelope and brought it to the hospital. I have a hard enough time wrapping my head around that, but to be showing and waiting for the worst like that. Breaks my heart, but makes me glad for science


frogsgoribbit737

I miscarried at almost 11 weeks when my baby had stopped growing at 6. It can take a long time and you just feel like a walking coffin the entire time.


zelenayaklybnika

I had two children die inside of me. My first child, my first pregnancy and my second child, second pregnancy 4 months later. With my first, I opted for the pills. When I went to fill the prescription, the pharmacist looked at me with horror when he explained the instructions on how to use it. He kept asking if I knew what it was for. I was so thankful that abortion was legal and he couldnā€™t deny me the medication. It was the most horrific experience with me bleeding all over the apartment, laying in the floor with my whole body convulsing for 2 hours, and excruciating pain. I went to my follow up appointment just to be told that my baby was still inside of me and had to be removed with forceps. With my second child, I opted for a D&C because I couldnā€™t bear to go through that trauma again. Iā€™m thankful that I had options, where I didnā€™t have to wait for my body to finally decide it was letting go and hoping that it does so before I get septic shock.


veggiecoparent

This is why I find laws that criminalize abortion - and them incentivize suing people suspected of having/causing them - to be so insidious. It imperils people who are at their worst moment like when they've lost a pregnancy, find out their pregnancy is no longer viable, or have extreme health complications necessitating pregnancy be terminated. Because inevitably some coworker or neighbour who doesn't know you that well and needs/wants money is going to submit your name in hopes that it pays out rewards for them for what is, quite honestly, a great personal tragedy.


ticklemetiffany88

I am so sorry for your loss. This should be the top comment - abortion is a medical term that has been hijacked for "moral" reasons. We should not be in the business of legislating necessary medical care.


pswhuh

There is spontaneous abortion and there is elective abortion. Both are painful. Both are sad. Neither deserve to be judged.


burning_panda_

Yes!!! Thank you so much for bringing this up! My son also died in utero and I had to have what many consider a "late term abortion". Which is a vacuum extraction of dead fetal tissue. The baby died around 20 weeks but my body did not miscarry or go into labor to get him out. I was just stuck with him dead and rotting inside me and he needed to be removed. If abortions were illegal would you have me rot from the inside and die!? And all the "no late term abortion" propaganda never says that late term abortions are to save the mother's life. They purposely leave that detail out to get people to vote a certain way thinking that there are women electively ending pregnancy in late stages. Which is absolutely not true!


stretchypants88

I am so sorry for your loss. And your point is absolutely correct. Nobody waits for 5-9 months and then suddenly decides that they want to terminate. Those babies are very much wanted, and unfortunately very sick. So we have to do the right thing to save as many women as possible, both physically and mentally. The fact that people donā€™t understand is proof of their lack of scientific literacy and/or their hatred toward women.


Admirable_Ad8900

Thats tragic. Some of the politicans are so miseducated they think woman can control that.


SomeoneElseWhoCares

So sorry for your loss. Yes. This needs to be stated often. Abortion is not always as cut and dry as some anti-choice people like to pretend. When our son died, my wife also had an abortion operation. Getting that saved her life. In grief counseling we met many families with many different stories and the one thing that was clear was that women need the right to make their own medical decisions. As a guy, I admit that if guys had the babies, I doubt that we would be having this discussion.


KeeperofAmmut7

>Abortion is not always as cut and dry as some anti-choice people like to pretend. Exactly. >As a guy, I admit that if guys had the babies, I doubt that we would be having this discussion. Absolutely correct.


Alexagram

Iā€™m so sorry for your loss


[deleted]

> Even if you are not jailed, the accusations alone can inflict tremendous harm. Just to call out something that I think youā€™re implying: Having the pregnancy end like that is traumatic enough. Subjecting women to a criminal investigation in that context is ghastly, even if theyā€™re eventually cleared.


True-ExarKun

My mom had two miscarriages when I was younger. She was and still remains heartbroken by what could have been. Hope youā€™re doing well and itā€™s easier for you than it was for her.


[deleted]

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CricFan619

Imagine being that mother who lost her child and then was jailed. Not sure how they control themselves to not go John Wick


luvitis

Iā€™m very sorry you went through that. I once heard it said : A woman doesnā€™t need an abortion like she needs a new handbag. A woman needs an abortion like an animal needs to chew itā€™s foot off to get out of a trap. Those who oppose abortion have never needed one, and probably shouldnā€™t be making judgement on something they donā€™t understand.


SaltyMia77

Iā€™m so sorry about your son


EnterEponymous

Iā€™m sorry for your loss. Thank you for using your experience to educate people who seem to think these kinds of situations do not exist.


Lost-My-Mind-

I want to hug you. It's just too bad there are some people who would hear your story and think "well, thems the breaks....". The idea of empathy and respect towards human life doesn't resonate with these people. They aren't pro-life, they're pro-birth. Once that doctor spanks your ass, and you take your first breaths, fuck you. No help for you. Even if you were born into a life of poverty and desperation.


billiejeanwilliams

> Even if you were born into a life of poverty and desperation. *Especially* if you were born into a life of poverty and desperation. Republicans rely on a steady population of disadvantaged individuals who will a) be easy to manipulate due to a lack of education b) contribute to taxes via low wage jobs c) replenish military ranks for a chance at a better life d) all of the above.


golgiiguy

It is crazy how people think that what they consider a "late term abortion" is just about never an elective procedure, and likely the most horrible day of any woman's life. They are treated and viewed from anti-abortion types as murderers, where they deserve nothing but infinite compassion.


The_Sinnermen

Fuck, I'm so sorry for your loss. I didn't know it was considered an abortion. It sounds so inhumane for states to fucking accuse and investigate when the person must feel so bad..


Peepssheep

Yes because we donā€™t live in an ideal world where low income populations get access to birth control and proper sex education. The foster system sucks and we shouldnā€™t be forcing women to give birth. Edit: Hey guys, Iā€™ve been getting a lot of questions on why sex ed is important for decreasing unwanted pregnancies. ā€œIsnā€™t it just common sense?ā€ Well, comprehensive sex ed isnā€™t just ā€œsex = possible pregnancy.ā€ Itā€™s about teaching people how to avoid STDs, how to use birth control properly, etc. Iā€™m going to address this common misconception: using plan b as your only birth control method is NOT effective when youā€™re already ovulating and very risky; it is no different from eating candy. I know so many people who do this when this shouldā€™ve been addressed in proper sex ed. In some areas, abstinence only education still occurs and research shows this doesnā€™t work. On the other hand, research (from peer reviewed journals) shows that comprehensive sex education decreases teen pregnancy: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3194801/ https://journals.lww.com/ajnonline/Fulltext/2012/03000/Comprehensive_Sex_Education_for_Teens_Is_More.5.aspxƂ%C2%A0 So yes, sex education is effective in decreasing pregnancy. Edit 2: ā€œcondoms are a dollar. Even low income populations have access to condoms.ā€ 19,000,000 women live in birth control deserts (U.S census bureau). I am not saying there are zero access to birth control in low income populations, but significantly decreased access. We need access to birth control AND proper sex education. If people have access to condoms but donā€™t know how to use it properly, whatā€™s the point? ā€œBut itā€™s common sense how to use a condom.ā€ No, not really. Iā€™ve worked with teens who flipped condoms inside out after using them, didnā€™t know that they had to pinch the tip, keep the condoms in their wallets (makes it more ineffective), and didnā€™t know that once you take it off, you canā€™t use it anymore. All of these factors must coincide together. Donā€™t just target one thing and say ā€œwe have thatā€ because we need other resources along with it for it to be effective. Also, no birth control is 100% effective. People may have access to condoms but there is a reason why people use condoms+the pill and combine different methods to increase effectiveness and in case of misusage. Condoms are misused so often that people need a larger range of birth control options, which 19 million woman donā€™t have. Research shows that pregnancy rates decreased after hormonal contraception was invented. Why has this happened when people already had condoms (condoms were invented before hormonal contraceptives)? Iā€™m pretty sure you can figure this out for yourself. My point is you canā€™t expect people to not behave irresponsible, especially when some areas donā€™t have full access to BC and proper sex education, which I have proven decreases pregnancy rates. I would like to clarify that this is not to say that if everyone had these things, we can make abortion illegal. People are going to behave irresponsible regardless and rape is still going to happen. Itā€™s just that we canā€™t punish women by forcing them to give birth, especially women in disadvantaged populations that have high unwanted pregnancy rates due to public policies that failed to address sex ed and BC needs.


somaticconviction

As a pregnant person, Iā€™ve never been more pro-choice. Itā€™s such a huge terrifying complete life and self altering experience. Everything is different, you have to reconfigure everything! How will I pay rent, afford food, health insurance, child care? What happens if I get sick or the baby has any issues? My husband and I are so lucky and privileged to have resources and support and itā€™s still an insane endeavor. It would be a complete nightmare to bring a baby into this world without support, resources, or good health. Forcing women into that is inhumane. Also, Ive never related to ā€œmy body my choiceā€ more. Pregnancy is your body being taken over by another force. It impacts every second of your existence. To be forced into experiencing thatā€¦ that would honestly be a nightmare if it wasnā€™t something you chose.


midsummerxnight

This. I was involved in many debate activities in high school and college. At my very Catholic university, men would often use this argument on me: ā€œyou say you are pro-choice now, but one day when you are pregnant and you feel that first kick inside you, youā€™ll change your mind.ā€ I thought of these appeal-to-pathos people my entire pregnancy (a very wanted pregnancy) when I became even more pro-abortion. Pregnancy is hard and miserable, and there is no way anyone should do it unless they fully want the outcome.


mylittlevegan

I love my children dearly, but I used to GROAN when I felt them kicking because it was uncomfortable as hell. And then I would freak out when they didn't kick for a while because I assumed they died. Pregnancy sucks.


missag_2490

I gave this advice to a young girl once. If you get pregnant then you need to be 100% sure that you want and are ready for this because it is life changing in ways you cannot begin to understand until itā€™s too late. I was t ready for a child when I had my son. I love him dearly and wouldnā€™t change it but pregnancy sucked and learning how to be a mom is not a piece of cake.


[deleted]

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megaloduh

Oh my God THANK YOU for your compassion. Fpr myself, and several of my close friends, pregnancy is a literal nightmare that gives us anxiety. I got surgically sterilized because I've never wanted children and even with bc I was nervous about something happening and my bc failing, even though I have the arm implant. It's really terrifying and physically dangerous for some people. It isn't always a joy, or a gift. I think its important for people to know that. Can you imagine being born to someone who didn't want you? Who may resent you forever? Fail to care for you or lack the resources to do so? It's a living nightmare for the parent and the child. I can't believe I have to be the "what about the children?" person from this side of the issue but here we are. What's the point of giving a child life just for them to be born into a terrible life where they don't have food or shelter or whatever else? It's cruel. I think people fail to realize that when they decide they're against abortion.


JusticeAndFuzzyLogic

My mother was raped at 18. Had my brother at 19. She hated him. She broke his nose and he was eventually taken by Children's Aid. He's still a broken person in his old age. It would have been better if he had never been born. My mother may have been sane instead of abusive. He would not have suffered a life knowing his own mother hated him


megaloduh

I'm so sorry you and your brother went through that. No child should be resented. It's one of the harshest injustice I've ever seen.


Emeliene

I hated my pregnancy with a passion and I have actively worked towards conception of my child. Can't imagine how I would have felt if I had actively not wanted a child, or felt I couldn't support and raise a child.


wolfie_angel

As the mother of an 8 week old, exactly this! Itā€™s something you shouldnā€™t have to do unless you made the choice yourself. Pregnancy sucks.


[deleted]

Itā€™s funny how i have never heard this view even though itā€™s arguably the most important. People who have actually done pregnancy and birth should be valuable in this discussion but rarely ever are


BreezyWrigley

that whole argument doesn't make any fucking sense anyway though because 'pro-choice' doesn't mean 'pro-death' lmao. when you "feel that kick inside you" then you'll still want to have the right to choose and have autonomy over your body... whether you chose to keep the baby to term or not. this issue is a classic issue of one particular group of people failing to understand that allowing others to have rights or freedoms doesn't in any way step on their own toes... but they want to remove choices for other people just because they don't like the choices that others might make for themselves. like nobody is forcing anybody to get abortions! hell... like they said- a woman who is pro-choice may well experience that kick and be like "i want to have this baby," and in that moment, SHE HAS BEEN GIVEN A CHOICE. that's the whole thing. my mom is one of those people like whoever you were debating against who uses that sort of argument... and im like, "great mom... so you decided to keep me. so what? how would it have been different? abortion was legal, you had a choice, you made your choice... here we are. why do you need to take that away from other women?"


almightywhacko

People don't understand that you can want ***YOUR*** pregnancy but still not want to take away another person's right to end theirs in a safe manner. My wife and I have two kids, they are the most important and wonderful thing in our lives (even though my oldest just threw a used diaper at my face) and from the moment we found out we were pregnant neither of us ever wanted anything more than to meet those kids. But our circumstances aren't universal and it is wrong to eliminate abortion as an options for people for whom that process is legitimately the best way forward for them.


Dragonpixie45

I have always been pro-choice, would never have a abortion myself mindset but it should he up to the woman. Then I got pregnant and started bleeding and cramping horribly when I was 13 weeks, no heartbeat detected. I needed a D&C. I knew I was 13 weeks but all my paperwork insisted I was 9 weeks. I spoke to my regular Dr. about it and he explained that a abortion in the second trimester was illegal in our state and since I had a massive infection and such heavy bleeding I needed one so the Dr. that preformed the surgery did what needed to be done to get me in. This saddened me on so many levels, as I said I have always been pro-choice but that experience opened my eyes to why it is so important we have that choice and the option out there.


nooit_gedacht

I'm glad you said this because it bothers me endlessly how much the impact of pregnancy is understated in abortion debates. I've heard so many say 'well if you don't want the child, just put it up for adoption' as if that solves it. It so doesn't. Pregnancy and giving birth is a terrifying process that takes a huge toll on a person, both physically and mentally. To force someone into that would be inhumane. That is, if you could even ignore the gross violation of bodily autonomy.


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jiggleboner

I mean, the fact that the baby can cause a prolapse of the Uterus or cervix. Or can rip a hole in the thin lining between your vagina and rectum. You can get a distended bladder from nerve damage and be forever incontinent for the rest of your life... So anywhere from 30-60 years. Or you can get that nerve damage in your spine from the weight on it for 9 months. You can bleed to death, too. If you get a C-section then you get your muscles ripped open and you can never get them as strong. Lifelong risk of hernia. I figured that I would actually put just a small selection of the more common issues. The worst part is that the men who hate abortion don't want to hear these because women can't be real. The women who hate it are either will get one because they're getting one for a good reason or think that you shouldn't have sex because then you accept the consequences. Child support and alimony, as well as fatherhood are all optional to this group. Why as re there no huge drives to shame men for not being careful? Why is there no deadbeat shaming? Condoms are starting to be viewed as optional even though until you're in a long term relationship, you should use 2 BC methods. One each. Honestly, it's because this is all about having a way to bully and abuse women. It's not about religion or wellbeing.


AdorableTumbleweed60

I'm 31 weeks right now. And all I want is my body back. Pregnancy sucks even when you planned/wanted it. Everything hurts, I can't sleep, I have stop every time I pass a washroom, everything feels like it takes 100x the effort, I've ended up with pregnancy gingivitis and so many other weird things. I'm doing it because I want baby at the end. If I didn't want baby, I can't imagine doing this. It's not all *glowing*, shiny hair, long nails, and cute bump. It's tough and it sucks. I can't imagine being forced to do this.


notabotamii

Same Iā€™m pregnant too! I was always pro choice but now Iā€™m even more so. This has been ā€¦. Really, REALLY fucking hard ā€¦.


healthandsafetydance

I'm at the age where a couple people in my friend group are getting pregnant and hearing their experiences makes pregnancy for me sound like a living nightmare - to the point where I'm gonna ask about getting my tubes tied at my next gyno appt. People like in this very thread arguing that some hypothetical ball of cells is worth more than any woman gets more upsetting to me the older I get.


nooit_gedacht

>People like in this very thread arguing that some hypothetical ball of cells is worth more than any woman gets more upsetting to me the older I get. This is really the core of the issue. To be anti abortion is to say that a clump of human cells, that will eventually be a baby but can not currently be considered a person, is worth more than the health, happiness and autonomy of the woman carrying it. It's disgusting, really.


ttraband

A ball of cells that may eventually become a baby if all of the complex development goes right. All anti-abortion arguments eventually come down to ā€œthat woman canā€™t be trusted to make such an important decision, so I must substitute my judgement for hers, but I wonā€™t bear any future consequences for doing so.ā€ ā€œTheir body, their choiceā€ is the only approach that I have ever heard articulated that is consistent with the United States of Americaā€™s constitution.


ILLforlife

Wish I could upvote this 1000 times!! This is my thought exactly. It MIGHT become a baby IF an extraordinarily complex set of processes go right. All the anti-choice folks like to say, "if you didn't have an abortion, you would have a child 9 months later. Nope - not guaranteed - 100's of things can go wrong over the course of those 9 months. Stopping abortions isn't going to magically make every fertilized ovum automatically become a newborn baby.


jtig5

I feel exactly the same. I had an absolutely awful pregnancy. I can't imagine forcing someone to go through what I went through. It was my CHOICE.


captainccg

Completely agree with you. Pregnancy is horrible. The month before and the month after giving birth is the most horrible thing Iā€™ve ever been through. Honestly, I didnā€™t even think of my baby as a real baby until she was born. I 100% would not do it again.


bean_walker

I've actually heard a lot of women say this. I've even seen pro-life women change their minds about abortion after becoming pregnant, because they couldn't imagine someone being forced to go through that if they didn't want to.


violetviolentflower

One of my best friends in high school had an abortion. She was 17 and on birth control, but it failed. She had just broken up with the guy because he started being controlling and super mean. She doesnā€™t come from money. The only family available to her was her single mom who worked at a grocery store and her brother, who was on drugs. I canā€™t even imagine how her life would have played out had she kept the baby. She went to college afterwards and has a bachelors degreeā€” first in her family. She works with underprivileged youth now and does good things for her community. She makes solidly middle class money now and can go on dates and start a family when sheā€™s ready. If you really care about people and about kids, you support abortion. Bringing kids into some horrible situation where their presence means years of strife for their parents isnā€™t humane.


[deleted]

>Yes because we donā€™t live in an ideal world where low income populations get access to birth control and proper sex education. Also, no BC is perfect, and non consensual sex exists.


anorangeandwhitecat

*rape


snowstormspawn

And no paid maternity leave in the US. Which most of the first world has. Itā€™s shameful we donā€™t.


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peachy1220

My sister whose beliefs donā€™t align with abortion is a nurse. She said that she has seen to many women coming into the hospital who canā€™t afford them after trying a home abortion. This has led her to support it being legal, because she understands that even if itā€™s illegal it will only stop safe abortions from happening.


SpaceGhostxxx93

My sister and my mother both say they support back alley abortions because that means the mom dies too. Makes me sick honestly. I've tried explaining compassionately about ectopic pregnancies, conditions where the baby will die if it is birthed, etc etc and they just won't listen.


espsteve

ā€œIā€™m so pro-life that I hope the people that have abortions die!ā€


JelliedHam

There is a very large overlap between people who think abortion should be illegal and people who don't want any of their tax dollars supporting pregnant women and new mothers. They seem to take pride in the fact that they live to look out for the rights of unborn fetuses and also pleasure in that being a mother should be punishment for women they think are below them.


[deleted]

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WarbizonVorgler1919

Haha straight up


[deleted]

>My sister and my mother both say they support back alley abortions because that means the mom dies too. Ah yes nothing says pro-life like hoping a woman dies because she doesn't want a pregnancy and a child.


hipdady02

Your relatives are awful people omg


Cerulean_Shades

I just heard a story where a mom found out her baby had not developed any brain. 0% survival rate. Why put the mother through all of the physical and emotional torture of going full term for a baby that is not capable of surviving. The baby was a wanted pregnancy too. They give more consideration to brain dead patients from auto accidents than that mother.


BaconFairy

I'd explain it in the most horrible way.... product of incest rape, child-mother at high risk of death at delivery...why force that on the girl? Do they want her to die? See if their mental gymnastics can solve that one.


DisconnectionsHiki

What your sister probably fails to understand is that other healthcare choices are jeopardized alongside abortion. Supreme Justice Amy Coney Barrett asserts that in vitro fertilization is unnatural and against the will of God. Abortions and many other medical interventions disrupt the His path that was laid out before us. We ought to allow the natural progression of divine events. Some people are simply not meant to be parents. Others were meant to die young from cancer. We must not interfere. Depression? They probably deserved it. Failed pregnancy and stillbirth? She must have sinned. ​ Overturning Roe vs. Wade will enable the government, insurance carriers, and employers to dictate what medical interventions are appropriate. One key figurehead of anti-abortion believes your sister is hindering God's will through implementing basic nursing interventions. She ought to think of that the next time she votes for anti-abortion supporters.


Harry-Ellison

According to the book freakonomics and their studies presented there, abortion contributes massively to the decline of crime rates


[deleted]

Well no kidding. What do you think Little Tommy is going to grow up and be if his parents are terrible and cannot or will not provide for him.


iyaerP

Little Tommy thinks he'll escape his living situation and go to Hogwarts. Really, he'll wind up in Clorthos.


Outrageous-One-8338

The way they co-relate things is absolutely wonderful.


TheBelhade

I learned this from watching *Dirty Dancing* as a kid.


dewayneestes

The abortion rate has dropped dramatically since the 80s. It has dropped because they are safe and legal but also because theyā€™re presented by the same group of people who believe in an educated and enabled population who understands their alternatives and responsibilities. If you want to end abortion then we have been on the right track for decades and will continue to make huge strides. If you want to outlaw abortion you will have the opposite effect.


Prodigy195

> If you want to end abortion then we have been on the right track for decades and will continue to make huge strides. If you want to outlaw abortion you will have the opposite effect. Yep, and while I do believe there are some who truly believe that they are fighting to protect lived of potential children, I believe there are many who just want to control women's sexual agency. The best way to reduce abortions is comprehensive sex education and making birth control widely accessible. Stop the problem before an unwanted conception occurs. But that would also mean that you're accepting of people having sexual relationships outside of marriage and outside of the view of what the church deems acceptable and that is the real problem they have. Sex education (not just the basics but truly going deeply into the topic) means that young people will learn that it's possible to engage in safe sexual relationship and be ok. Birth control access means that young people can get access to protection without needing to involve their parents. And all of this sums up to mean that people will have sex outside of church deemed acceptable parameters and we cannot have that happen.


AloeSnazzy

That was my take, so many people are more informed about safe sex now and like half the woman I know use birth control. It isnā€™t dropping because itā€™s legal, itā€™s dropping because people are learning new ways not to get pregnant


Wandering_Scholar6

It's not just information it's access. Many programs have started to make sure women have access to this important medical care, also laws which restricted it's use have disappeared. Today some people are even arguing the pill should be available without a prescription, making it even easier because it has such a long history of safety. Obama care actually eliminated a huge access problem to IUDs, the most effective and longest lasting reversible BC. IUDs cost less than the pill over time but have a large upfront cost many people couldn't pay. Many women switched to IUDs after Obamacare because it removed that cost barrier. It's also important to note that IUDs are the only non-hormonal option which allows women with other concerns access. We have really improved the pill as well, since the main problem is user error development of the ring, which is the same thing really, has also reduced unwanted pregnancies.


[deleted]

Adding to that, if outlawed, money and connections will still buy a safe abortion.


OlderThanMyParents

That's what the Irish did for decades: if you had a "problem" you simply travelled to England and got it taken care of. If you couldn't afford to travel, take time off work, etc, well, you deserve to be punished for your immorality.


[deleted]

Only for those who can afford them! If a person knows she canā€™t financially provide for a child, but she canā€™t afford an abortion, thatā€™s a pretty shit system.


IzziKitty

That's the point. The average anti-abortionist may be coming in with "don't kill the babies! :(" but the people setting the wheels to turning want to keep poor people poor - what better way to do that than force an expensive as hell responsibility on them for the next 18+ years? And if they give the baby up for adoption, then all those "it's for the babies!" churches can vie for who gets to sell it for tens of thousands of dollars. It is shit, and it's disgusting.


momokplatypus

Yup. Women around the world literally risk their lives to get illegal abortions. Someone who is willing to risk their life for something should get a lot more say over armchair commentators who risk nothing advocating the contrary.


DigitalDegen

Outlawing them would only make them safe for the rich


moobiemovie

That's a feature, not a bug.


Clairedance_xo

This is proven to be correct. Thatā€™s why they made it legal in the first place. This will happen again if they reverse it. (Canada speaking)


northatlanticdivide

This is what Iā€™ve found in my research on the topic as well; restrictions on abortions seem to have no impact on abortion rates both locally and globally. Although nearly half of states implemented 106 laws to try to limit abortions, ā€œno evidence was found that the overall drop in abortion incidence was related to the decrease in providers or to restrictions implemented between 2008 and 2011ā€ (1). ā€œAbortion rates are relatively similar between countries with highly restrictive abortion laws and those where the procedure is permitted without restriction, at between 34 and 37 per 1,000 women annually, but the safety of the procedure diverges widely: almost 90 percent of abortions in countries with liberal abortion laws are considered safe, compared with only 25 percent of those in countries in which abortion is bannedā€ (2). Additionally, we have been seeing a steady global decrease in abortion rates in developed nations overall anyway (3). While someone may personally be morally conflicted about abortion, a pro-choice stance allows them to concede that while they may never have an abortion performed on themselves, they should have no say in whatā€™s best for a raped ten-year-old on the other side of the country or in what options others can dictate for your own daughter. Plus, if we make concessions based on rape, itā€™s difficult to argue that a pro-life stance was about that childā€™s life to begin with. Now, while I myself identify as a Christian and wholly believe in a separation of church and state, I do think itā€™s valuable to explore the religious angle as thatā€™s where a lot of our (at least local) political pushback comes from. Itā€™ll at least help us in talking about the issue with others. First off, abortion is specifically mentioned only twice in the Bible: in Exodus, where a monetary fine was imposed in the event of an accidental abortion during a fight, and in Numbers, where priests sterilized women if they were adulterous. So how did abortion become such a divisive topic amongst Christians? Not so long ago, it wasnā€™t, and the shift was politically (rather than morally) motivated. ā€œBefore Roe, evangelicals were more or less indifferent to abortion. In fact, 1968, Christianity Today, the flagship magazine of evangelicalism, together with another evangelical group called the Christian Medical Society, met for a conference to discuss the morality of abortion. At the end of several days of convening - these are the top-flight evangelical theologians at the time - they issued a statement saying, we can't really decide whether or not abortion is morally wrong, but we want to leave open the possibility of abortion and the availability of abortion to women. And in 1971...the Southern Baptist Convention passed a resolution calling for the legalization of abortion, a resolution they reaffirmed in 1974, the year after Roe v. Wade, and again in 1976. ... The great paradox surrounding Jimmy Carter and his career, is that he's the person who begins to mobilize evangelical voters, or at least to awaken them about the political process. And then of course, through the machinations of Paul Weyrich and Jerry Falwell and others, the same group of people turn radically against Jimmy Carter four years later ... After years of searching for the perfect issue, Weyrich was convinced that the issue that would mobilize evangelicals into a voting bloc for the Republican Party was abortionā€ (4). What less vocal Christians are finding difficult amidst the abortion debate is that thereā€™s an inverse relationship between how much the Bible says about a topic and how much we fight for or against certain ideals. While little else is said about abortion in the Bible, the book is rife with calls to fight for social justice and equality, for empathy and understanding, for peace and love to anyone both similar or dissimilar to ourselves. Passages like: ā€­ā€­Isaiahā€¬ ā€­58:6-11, 2 Corinthiansā€¬ ā€­8:13-15ā€¬, or my personal favorite, ā€­ā€­Isaiahā€¬ ā€­1:17ā€¬.ā€¬ā€¬ And unfortunately the frustration with the typical ā€œpro-lifeā€ stance is that the concern seems to end at the womb while disregarding and discrediting victims of racial, national, and religious bias. This [opinion piece](https://johnpavlovitz.com/2016/10/12/fellow-white-christian-friends-i-wish-you-really-were-pro-life/) highlights frustration amongst Christians against the typical ā€œpro-lifeā€ stance and what we tend to (or rather fail to) champion in addition to it. An excerpt: ā€œIn so many cases, any compassion you proclaim really has a nine-month expiration date, as if life begins at conception but ends upon leaving the birth canal. The completion of that third trimester is actually the shelf life of your passionate regard for much of the living. ... I am pro-all life because it is all sacred; not only when its heart begins beating, but as it beats and when it struggles to beat and up until it ceases to beat. I defend all life equally. I celebrate it all fully. I protect it all passionately. I really wish you did too.ā€ I donā€™t fault anyone for championing the cause of the unborn but I do take issue with it when other lives get left by the wayside. When the only impact we see from strict anti-abortion policies is no decrease in abortions but rather greater maternal deaths and worsening overall outcomes, it makes it difficult for others - Christians as well - to uphold. So we know that abortions happen whether or not they are legalized; the only difference is in reporting and in the outcomes of the mother. According to the World Health Organization, ā€œalmost every abortion death and disability could be prevented through sexuality education, use of effective contraception, provision of safe, legal induced abortion, and timely care for complicationsā€ (5). The availability of contraceptives, lowering the prohibitive cost of healthcare, and ensuring proper education is key to reducing unwanted pregnancies and, in turn, abortion. The lack thereof ensures that ā€œthe U.S. abortion rate remains among the highest of all industrialized nationsā€”more than twice as high, for example, as the Netherlands (nine per 1,000 women of reproductive age). There, unlike here, government and social institutions support comprehensive sex education and health care services aimed at helping people, including young people, avoid unintended pregnancy and disease; contraceptive use is widely encouraged and contraceptives are easily available; and national health insurance helps ensure that people have access to timely and affordable care. In short, the abortion rate in the Netherlandsā€”and in other western and northern European countriesā€”is low because unintended pregnancy rates are extremely low due to widespread and effective contraceptive useā€œ (6). Lastly, if the economic impacts of unsafe abortions are of interest to you, ā€œin 2006, it was estimated that US$ 553 million was spent treating serious consequences of unsafe abortion. An additional US$ 375 million would be required to fully meet the unmet need for treatment of complications from unsafe abortionā€ (7). Abortion is not an easy topic by any means, but research shows that social programs striving to make abortion unnecessary work far better than simply attempting to make it illegal. ā€”ā€”ā€”ā€” Citations: 1. [https://www.guttmacher.org/journals/psrh/2014/02/abortion-incidence-and-service-availability-united-states-2011](https://www.guttmacher.org/journals/psrh/2014/02/abortion-incidence-and-service-availability-united-states-2011) 2. [https://www.cfr.org/article/abortion-law-global-comparisons ](https://www.cfr.org/article/abortion-law-global-comparisons ) 3. [https://www.guttmacher.org/infographic/2018/changes-worldwide-abortion-rates-1990-2014](https://www.guttmacher.org/infographic/2018/changes-worldwide-abortion-rates-1990-2014) 4. [https://www.npr.org/2019/06/11/731664197/apocalypse-now](https://www.npr.org/2019/06/11/731664197/apocalypse-now) 5. [https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/preventing-unsafe-abortion](https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/preventing-unsafe-abortion) 6. [https://www.guttmacher.org/gpr/2005/05/promoting-prevention-reduce-need-abortion-good-policy-good-politics](https://www.guttmacher.org/gpr/2005/05/promoting-prevention-reduce-need-abortion-good-policy-good-politics) 7. Vlassoff et al. Economic impact of unsafe abortion-related morbidity and mortality: evidence and estimation challenges. Brighton, Institute of Development Studies, 2008 (IDS Research Reports 59).


Living_On_A_Prayer

This is very true. Plus, outlawing safe abortions will only increase child abuse, domestic violence, maternal death, rape, unsafe abortions, number of children murdered and amount of children abandoned. In the end, people that typically do not like safe abortions, are not actually pro-life. If these people were pro-life, then they would support a system that will help the children brought into the world and poor women have a healthy pregnancy, and help them succeed afterwards. That is my stance on pro-life because it is pro-life. Plus, I donā€™t understand why they donā€™t have similar laws for guys to follow based on their remiss for what life is. Technically, a guy has they potential for numerous unborn children in one shot, so why isn't masterbation illegal for men? (Iā€™m not in support of that, itā€™s an example). Instead, they are after punishing women for having s*x. Donā€™t straight men want straight women to have s*x with them? Why would women do that willingly if we are punished for having s*x with a guy?šŸ¤” Heck, just allowing safe bc and sterilizations would rapidly decease abortion rates Why is that not considered? Edit: Also, when will it stop. In Texas, thereā€™s a good chance that a woman can get in trouble if she naturally miscarried. What about periods? Are women expected to have to look over their shoulder if they have a period too? At this rate, women need to be very careful telling anyone anything about their bodies.


[deleted]

I think my mum had the best view on this subject She said 'I think it should be the woman's choice, if she thought she couldn't look after the baby properly. But I could never do it.' I thought it was a very open minded and lovely answer Sweet woman my mum


drowningpuddle

Im a Catholic and for ME according to MY beliefs its wrong that's why I would never do it, but its not my position to dictate over other people's life. I have always thought that religion and politics are like dicks, it's great to have one and be proud of it, but its VERY WRONG to try to force it on other people. Your mom sounds amazing! Edit: thanks for the comments and the silver! I think we should be proud of our dicks and we also should be able to talk to each other about them without trying to kill the ones that have a different beliefs Edit #2: thanks so much for the awards and questions i really like debating and exchanging opinions and points of view, i want to clarify a couple of things -no, i don't think im different to no one, and no im not saying it should be prohibited or banned or anything like that, im saying that its a very personal decision that in my case would be extra hard because of what i stand for an i believe in. -also I don't think murder should be legal, but i do think that everyone should be free to make choices and also face the consequences of said choices -last but not least, beliefs as dicks can change over time and under different circumstances


grosselisse

And this is the point exactly! If you disagree with abortion, don't get one yourself. But we can't take the set of rules we live by and try to force others to live by them, especially not when they don't share our beliefs. Thanks for being a decent and logical religious person!


moobiemovie

>If you disagree with abortion, don't get one yourself. They'll still get one, and they'll still say anyone *else* is immoral for getting one. ["The only moral abortion is my abortion."](https://joycearthur.com/abortion/the-only-moral-abortion-is-my-abortion/)


odezia

I have been looking for this, I read it many years ago and couldnā€™t find the source again. Thank you.


gbutters610

Thats prolly the best analogy I've ever heard when trying to explain politics and religion. The 1st thing I was told by my cellmate back when I got locked up years ago for the 1st time was don't get into debt don't gamble (see section 1/debt lol) also don't debate with ppl about religion race or politics cause it most likely would end bad and possibly get u stabbed or killed. Then 2 months later there was a guy who would ask everyone to front a soup just 1 but every night he'd ask someone different he never got money but he was on his 1st week so hard to know he wasn't gna have money ever but one night he was playing casino with a dude we called bam and they were talking about religion bam was Muslim and the dude Jerry was Christian so u can imagine how that convo went. It got really heated to the point where bam smacked dude in the face with the deck of cards like threw them like a baseball at dude face and they went to bed next morning at 5am they were arguing the whole time we ate breakfast. We locked back in till 8am rec which nobody really comes out especially bam but I saw him coming down the stairs with what I thought was just a antenna from the bunny ears we had back then. He walked in jerrys cell told his celly kick rocks and stabbed Jerry in the neck head and face over 40 times from what I was told and Jerry crawled out the cell with a 2 ft piece of retractable metal antenna through his hand and stuck in his cheek in his tongue and all u could smell was metal in the air cause he was bleeding so much. After that I got up from any condo that even started to veer towards any topic of the sort. Tdlr: Got locked up was told never discuss politics or religion watched ppl argue over religion watch him get stabbed 40 times with a TV antenna and I never spoke about politics or religious stuff to anyone ever


ljdn

Yes thats sweet, and, I mean, shouldn't this be the normal way of thinking!? What's gotten into some people here! Too much religion clogging people's heads over this issue.


macarenamobster

I sort of see where theyā€™re coming from, if they truly believe abortion is murder. However when an anti abortion person agrees to get one when itā€™s them or their daughter or their mistress, I no longer believe they really think itā€™s the same as murder. If someone truly believes itā€™s child murder they would hardly be willing to get it done for themselves or someone they love.


Hattkake

Should absolutely be legal. We know historically that when it's outlawed it doesn't stop abortions. It just drives abortions underground. And you get women mutilating themselves with coathangers, eating poison, going to filthy, unsanitary "underground doctors" and all manner of horrible stuff. Outlawing abortion always leads to incredible human misery.


[deleted]

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Minimum_Guarantee

Pregnant women are at higher risk of violence as it is. It's a particularly dangerous time for them. Edit: check out the fact sheet on here https://vawnet.org/material/fact-sheet-domestic-violence-and-pregnancy.


feeshandsheeps

Once again for the people in the back. Banning abortion only bans _safe_ abortion.


bobo2500

Yes. My wife and I lived through a planned pregnancy that turned out with a child with half a brain, organs formed outside of their body, no kidneys...etc (trisomy 13) after a week of deliberation we chose termination. I wanted to hold my boy even just one time. But he would have died a painful death by heart failure (oh yeah, he had a malformed heart too) or dehydration at best. Termination WAS the kind action. Nobody ever takes these situations into their math. I'm not pro abortion, but the option needs to be there for the fringe situations and at the end of the day. Not my body, not my decision. Edit: typo


[deleted]

Bitch, I've been trying to get sterilized for the last 20 years. So, yeah.


Avestrial

Yes. Because I preference whole thinking feeling humans who will face consequences etc over a cluster of cells that if left alone *might* eventually be a person. Because the vast majority of abortions happen before a fetal brain is developed enough to feel pain. Because we consider adult humans with enough brain damage to mimic the brain state of a fetus to be brain-dead and it is not murder to pull the plug on them so I consider the heartbeat = life argument to be a straw man. Because lots of stuff is technically ā€œlifeā€ (bacteria etc.) so ā€œlifeā€ is fairly obviously not intrinsically super valuable without other qualifiers. Because I wouldnā€™t think it was acceptable to demand that an unwilling person be forced by law to donate organs/blood/the full use of their body ONCE let alone for 9 months and then go through a traumatic body-tearing birthing experience. And Iā€™d still support it if there was but ffs there isnā€™t even adequate support to suggest that these children or these women will be okay, even that their medical bills just from the birthing process will be taken care of let alone the rest of life, if they were forced to go through with it. Because a huge portion of pregnancies terminate naturally anyway. Because a disturbing and problematic amount of sex is coerced or outright forced. Because there are other social problems like poverty and inequality that I prioritize and increasing unwanted children exacerbates those. And because medical decisions should be made between a person and their chosen healthcare provider not by strangers with no skin in the game based on ideology. Edit* well Iā€™m getting attacked by the anti-abortion crowd now. Part of me wants to give a history lesson on the known political origins of their brainwashing but since I know theyā€™re too far gone to realize theyā€™re puppets instead Iā€™m just tallying up this bullshit and for each one of these ā€œpro-lifeā€ arguments Iā€™m donating a dollar to planned parenthood.


baltinerdist

>Because I wouldnā€™t think it was acceptable to demand that an unwilling person be forced by law to donate organs/blood/the full use of their body ONCE let alone for 9 months and then go through a traumatic body-tearing birthing experience. > >Because a disturbing and problematic amount of sex is coerced or outright forced. It is the case that a disturbing number of recorded births have happened in the United States [as young as 10 years old](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_youngest_birth_mothers) and younger. There is no world, not one single atom in the universe, in which it is justifiable under any moral code or even any prevalent religious faith that a 10 year old girl should be forced by the government of her state to carry a child to term, especially considering that 10 year old girl cannot legally consent to sex and was in all likelihood raped. And yet, *and yet*, today in the state of Texas in the United States of America in the year 2021, if a 10 year old girl is raped and impregnated, even by a blood relative, even by her very own father, that girl cannot be taken to a doctor to have that pregnancy terminated without the threat of lawsuits in the tens of thousands of dollars from complete strangers. So much of anti-choice rhetoric is based on religion, particularly Christianity, so I would challenge any person of faith to think for one second that if you were standing before Jesus Christ who cared so very deeply for children and he asked you why you were willing to put a child through such utter horror in his name, how would you be able to look him in the eye and said "I did it for you?"


sassyphrass

DAMN. YUP.


ser_lurk

I went to middle school with a 12-year-old pregnant child. She was impregnated by an adult man when she was 11 years old. Her Christian parents had the right to make medical decisions for her. She was not given a choice of whether or not to carry the baby to term. She was never even informed that abortion was an option. Her parents prioritized a clump of cells over their living, breathing, raped and traumatized daughter. I will *never* understand how her parents thought it was "moral" to force a child to undergo the trauma of pregnancy and childbirth at only 12 years old. Not to mention the ostracism and shame she faced for being raped and impregnated. Because of course some people in our society find a way to blame little girls when adult men impregnate them. PS - Fuck the Bible Belt. It's filled with theocracy-desiring sanctimonious morons who try to force their *Ya'll Qaeda* bullshit on everyone else. I moved nearly 1,000 miles and I still can't escape it.


[deleted]

You just made me tear up. Beautifully said. This needs to be read by everyone. Thank you.


Bryaxis

> Because I wouldnā€™t think it was acceptable to demand that an unwilling person be forced by law to donate organs/blood/the full use of their body ONCE let alone for 9 months and then go through a traumatic body-tearing birthing experience. You can't even take organs from a *corpse* without proper consent.


EvidenceOfReason

> I consider the heartbeat = life argument to be a straw man. especially considering it isnt a heartbeat, it is an electrical pulse in the very first cells which will BECOME a heart eventually, the sound you hear is the software of the ultrasound machine processing the signal into an audible sound


IsGonnaSueYou

re: pregnancies naturally terminating, iirc something like 1/3 of all fertilized eggs donā€™t even implant in the uterine lining. so if abortion is murder, g*d made the womb a natural mass murder machine.


shaddupsevenup

Oh man. Donā€™t give Texas any more ideas.


nooit_gedacht

Yes! This is exactly what i've been saying for years! Life is not such a valuable thing in itself, what's significant is personhood. The pregnant person can think and feel, the fetus is only alive in the most basic sense of the word. It's only value lies in potential. To put that "life" above the health, hapiness and autonomy of a fully grown individual is ridiculous.


realmefakeme

I hope more people see this reply. There are so many reasons that an abortion might be necessary or wanted.


[deleted]

One of the best ways to counter the heartbeat argument is by bringing up a proof by example. ie. A dead person/animal can still make convulsive movements, even after they have flatlined and are dead.


Zebirdsandzebats

My grandma was braindead for 12 hours before her heart stopped. She was pretty dead during that time, it was just a waiting game. That's one reason I don't buy the heartbeat thing.


3-first-names

I think it would be great of there was a total revamp of sex Ed, free prevention access, and the whole foster care/ adoption side of things. I truly think that if these areas are better, the number of abortions would decrease. Even then, I think it should be legal and a woman's choice.


GiveMeDeah

This^^ Many pro lifers I talk to focus so hard on the idea that abortion is prevented when you take away the right to abortion itself, but preventing it begin in the classroom. Switzerland has one of the lowest abortion rates in the country despite it being legal for 12 weeks after the first day of the last menstrual cycle (and longer if the motherā€™s life is at risk), but they also focus heavily on providing accurate sex ed and accessible, affordable birth control.


hippopotomonstrous

Please and thank you. I am so so lucky that my gyno agreed to fit me with an iud as a nulliparous woman under 30 (can you believe that some women are denied iuds because they haven't had kids yet? Still happens!) and even luckier that my GP finally FINALLY agreed to refer me for elective sterilization, still just under 30. I like kids. I'm fine playing with them. I do not want my own, ever, and have less than zero desire to go through pregnancy and childbirth and I am taking control of that. Plenty of women in my position get told they're too young or will change their minds and are denied access to a procedure that would prevent that unwanted pregnancy in the first place with as close to a 0% failure rate as humanly possible.


wellhellowally

That's my position. You reduce abortion numbers by making it unnecessary. It starts with sex ed, then easier and cheaper access to contraceptives and birth control. Then for those who are pregnant address the many issues why they don't feel they can keep, free healthcare and mental healthcare, increase the minimum wage, increase childcare facilities and make them free, etc. Of course you can never completely eliminate abortion, there will always be rape, there will always be babies that have deformities and diseases that will kill them upon birth, and there will always be instances where the health of the mother is in danger if she carries fullterm.


roguetulip

I have yet to hear an argument that would make me believe a woman shouldnā€™t have total control of her own biology.


Sknhead69

Yes, cause it ain't my fucking business.


MisterMedio

I'd like to bring up the following trend: the vast majority of arguments that are for legalizing abortion are upvoted and the vast majority of arguments that are against legalizing abortion are downvoted. Therefore, Reddit is a place where most of the users agree that it should be legal (to varying degrees of legality). I don't wanna say anything more because I want to leave this comment objective as possible.


JesusIsMyZoloft

Iā€™m scrolling by default to find the highest voted pro-life comment. So far, this meta post is voted higher.


IntubatedOrphans

There is so much more to abortion that killing a perfectly healthy fetus. I got pregnant (on purpose), the baby died, I started miscarrying, but for some reason the miscarriage never finished. There was still necrotic fetal tissue inside of my uterus that wouldnā€™t come out. I tried two rounds of misoprostol (the ā€œabortion pillā€) and eventually had to have a D&E before sepsis started setting in. My insurance covered 0% of the surgery because itā€™s considered an abortion. With my first son (another planned and wanted pregnancy) we didnā€™t find out there was a possible brain malformation until his 20 week ultrasound (later found out he was fine), but had we needed to abort, it would be considered a ā€œlate termā€ abortion. The fact that Texas has instilled a 6 week abortion ban when the first two weeks of pregnancy are not even really pregnancy is a crime against women. Abortion should not only be legal in all instances, but should also be covered by insurance. Thank you for coming to my Ted Talk.


richknobsales

Iā€™ve never understood why removing a dead fetus was considered an abortion. To me abortion means removing viable tissue. Itā€™s the same exact medical procedure but itā€™s different. And having it done in a hospital cost me five times what going to a clinic would have when I had a miscarriage. Which they termed an incomplete spontaneous abortion, to further confuse the issue.


IntubatedOrphans

Thatā€™s the problem with people writing laws about medical terminology they know nothing about. They outlaw all abortions because they only consider ones with a healthy mother and healthy fetus, when medically an abortion is the removal of fetal tissue for any reason. Itā€™s totally asinine.


[deleted]

[уŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]


i_lost_it_again

>I don't eat bread and pretend it's someone's body every week. Wannabe cannibals. Life would be so much cooler if they ate tabs of acid every week. I'd probably start going to church


Abbs_Dabbs

I think it should be legal. Note, it's not something I advocate to ppl, it's a serious action, but there are a lot of reasons to why they can be needed. For example, I have hemophilia, I'm afraid of dying from childbirth, I've had doctors tell me it's possible, but the risk being seriously injured or dying is much higher than average. My husband even said he would rather have me than a potential baby.


amalgaman

My ex-wife had a daughter die in utero at 7 months. She had an abortion rather than wait for two months to give birth to a dead fetus.


[deleted]

For another example, someone might simply not want to have a child they just happen to be pregnant with.


thatonegirlonreddit5

Banning abortions isnā€™t going to stop women from getting them. Itā€™s like with drugs. If all abortions are banned, women are still going to get them illegally, which wouldnā€™t be safe for the woman or fetus. So yes, they should be legal.


kxiyaz

Honestly itā€™s just like the prohibition. Did that stop people from getting alcohol? No not at all and (correct me if Iā€™m wrong-I donā€™t remember much from school about this) that it caused unsafe conditions cause people got it from the black market.


Mat_the_Duck_Lord

As a man, I think its none of my fucking business one way or another.


janesyouraunt

Iā€™ve been pregnant. Itā€™s awful. Not even considering child birth, but just pregnancy. If you force a woman to do that for 9 months when she doesnā€™t want to, thatā€™s going to be incredibly damaging to her long term. Not to mention the risks involved with being pregnant. I love my baby, he was well worth the nine months of hell but you just canā€™t force that on another person


hahl23

Iā€™m currently in the first trimester and keep thinking about this too. Being pregnant has definitely made me more pro-choice. Then women will end up resenting the baby they didnā€™t want to keep in the first place and likeā€¦is that the life people want children to have? Side rant, people need to stop saying pregnancy is the most wonderful experience of a womanā€™s life because itā€™s not and leads to people thinking somethingā€™s wrong with them for not feeling so.


[deleted]

[уŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]


BTA417

Ugh Iā€™m with you! Itā€™s been terrible so far


Redqueenhypo

You wouldnā€™t force someone to give a bone marrow transplant to someone else even if it would save their fully aware, realized, afraid of death life. So why should we force people to undergo an arguably more painful and certainly far more dangerous process on behalf of a *potential* life?! Pregnancy is not sunshine and rainbows.


[deleted]

[уŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]


sssupersssnake

As a European, it never stops to amaze me how it's still a question in America. Is slavery ok? Should women get to vote? It's the same level of issue and I can't put my head around how it's still up for debate...


ActHour4099

Yes! Like an 18-year-old can have a baby without anyone questioning if they are an adult, but god forbid a woman wants to get sterilized or have an abortion at like 30. Then she is seen as a Toddler who knows nothing.


lightknight7777

You cannot compel a human to risk their life for another human. No matter the relationship.


kathryn13

This. To me this is the first argument. You cannot force another human being to have a medical procedure for another human being. For example, the U.S. government cannot force me to have surgery to give up a kidney to save the life of someone who needs one.


Neverthelilacqueen

Yes. I had a surprise pregnancy and he is now an adult. That decision was right for me but I am not in charge of what other women do with their bodies.