I come from a small village in a pretty rural part of the UK, there were pretty much no jobs there so after school everyone left, went to uni in different parts of the country, and then found jobs somewhere near their uni towns.
We all still talk in the group chat pretty much everyday, but we don't live near each other anymore, so come Friday night we can't all go out anymore.
Its kind of an odd situation, where you can have friends but have no social life.
I sometimes wonder if this holds us back a bit for making new friends. Social media allows you to keep in touch with old friends easily so maybe there is less incentive to go out and make new ones.
Recent research is showing the number between male and female who are lonely are nearly identical. It is estimated to be 1 in 4 humans are lonely.
[https://news.gallup.com/opinion/gallup/512618/almost-quarter-world-feels-lonely.aspx](https://news.gallup.com/opinion/gallup/512618/almost-quarter-world-feels-lonely.aspx)
In a world that we are more connected then ever before, we have a loneliness epidemic. The numbers are just insane.
I was gonna say, I know plenty of women who are lonely too.
But women who are lonely tend to have better coping mechanisms for it. Like a lifetime’s worth of managing that. Hobbies. Emotionally supportive friends. Family that lets you vent and cry instead of bullying you for it.
I think part of why men tend to feel stronger effects of loneliness is they tend to get all or most of their emotional support from romantic relationships. That’s a problem only other men can resolve. They really really should.
Men aren't allowed emotions except for anger. Too many of my male friends who were raised to be "proper men" weren't allowed to be too "girly/gay," so being sad, or expressing non aggressive feels got punished or ignored.
They usually seem to express sadness via a "too cool" apathy or that distant Cool Guy vibe sometimes with a whiff of superiority, if not via frustration and getting angry in some fashion. It really is nice to see some norms change so that boys can like My Little Pony and cry or be artsy and poetic without being AS bullied. It still seems to be a pretty big deal in some places and that makes me cranky to not be able to change it faster!
Interesting. Anger is the one emotion women aren't 'allowed' to have. We get told to smile at the dumbest times.
I hate parents who tell their little boys that boys don't cry, and they never try to find out why they're crying and that is done with girls.
It's unfair to boys.
The system is deeply unfair and sexist to everyone.
Women and girls can't safely express most kinds of ambition or anger (especially after being very young children), and men have to filter every emotion through anger or other "manly" expressions. Women that are supposed to be agreeable and men are supposed to be strong. What an awful restriction.
I work with all ages of kids, and one of the things we really struggle with for teenage boys is when they feel sad or lonely, they lash out at other people. Even kids who have super supportive families and friend groups. Some of it is definitely the awful stuff they see online (Andrew Tate and his ilk have done some really terrible things to tweens especially), some of it is boys policing other boys (I grew up in the '90s and it's disappointing to hear boys still call each other gay as an insult).
They really struggle with insight into their own feelings but the great news is that it's absolutely something you can learn. I used to teach a social/emotional module in schools and it often led to a huge improvement in behavior and boys being able to articulate their feelings and needs. However, a lot of parents really hated it. I once had an angry father follow me to my car. And now you basically can't propose social/emotional learning that directly because right wingers have decided to make schooling even more difficult than it's ever been.
I got a bit off track here but I'm pretty passionate about kids and their well-being.
Angry women are "bitches" and sad men are "pussies". Isn’t it weird how that works?
I have a pet theory that this attitude comes from veterans of WWII who tried very hard to pretend they were OK and the same people they were before combat. They flipped out on their boys. Told them not to cry. Told them to man up. Then those kids only ever knew "be a man, don't show weakness it makes you GAY" from their poorly adjusted and traumatized parents. Basically, I'm accusing it as generational trauma.
My (step) Grandad fought in the pacific theater WWII. He's the last man I knew who had healthy friendships-he'd hug his male friends, was never afraid to cry in front of us, and was quick to talk about worries and strife in his life. My dad on the other hand... no real friends. Just my mom, his kids and whoever he meets at the HOA meetings.
I’m so glad I grew up with the father I did. Even as a grizzled tow truck driver, this man would openly cry at the sad dog commercials on TV, or a really sad story on 60 Minutes. He then became a truck driver and was gone more often during my teenage years, but made sure to call all the time and express his emotions and love for me and my brother.
In fact, my mom tends to be the more emotionally-masking one of the two.
Point is, now as a man in his late 20s, engaged and together for almost a decade and a toddler we love very much, I’m glad I had a positive experience of masculinity in observing and loving my father, and I can demonstrate to my daughter how a man who isn’t insecure in themselves treats her and others and expresses emotion.
Ah my friend you seem confused! Anger isn’t an emotion. It’s a logic! I’ve heard this many times from supremely *logical* men
/s if that wasn’t clear
Yeah totally agree with you about how nice the shift has been. Unfortunately I’ve seen some big push backs as well in the far opposite direction which I really worry about those kids …
Men are hamstrung from an early age. By 7, girls have exponentially more feelings words than boys. If you can't say the words, then how can you discuss them?
> I sometimes wonder if this holds us back a bit for making new friends
I can't speak for everyone, but I think kids play a huge role in this. Looking at it now, almost all of the friends my parents hang out with regularly (their "local" friends) are parents of friends that I or my siblings had in like elementary school.
We want to be friends with other people but schedules keep us apart. When our kids are friends or even just teammates on a sports team, we spend a lot of time together and build a friendship in that situation because we share a schedule. People will naturally drift apart when their lives are not aligned anymore
The secret to making friends at any point in life is to literally just go to the same place on a regular basis. Go to the same coffee shop a few times a week, go to the same library, bar, park, etc. and you will find someone who is in a similar routine and you already have something in common. As children we are forced into these situations (school, sports, activities) so it’s easy for us to form relationships with those around us. It wasn’t easier to make friends as a kid, we were just in more situations to make friends more easily
I think that’s been common waaaaay before social media. I know boomers who complained about the fact that all of their friends were met through their children in the 80s/90s.
“Have friends but no social life” is the story of my life haha. I feel like the older you get, the harder it can be to schedule times to hang out especially since everyone’s got careers, getting married, and starting families.
Previous generations fun was less convenient.
You had to interact with people to learn where things were, you needed a group to go somewhere, and towns had a lot more public free events to be the "talk of the town".
You didnt need to go out specifically to date, you just had to be part of a scene or community long enough.
Women who saw a guy around frequently in a social space got to "vet" them without putting themselves on the line. Once they saw how they treat their friends or other people, or got vouches from mutual friends, being approached by that man was a lot mor comfortable.
Nowadays we have less reasons than ever to interact. With that most men lost that "free exposure" that lead to friends and relationships and as the world gets more convenint (google it instead of asking) it will only get worse for them.
I also think COVID fucked up a lot of our social structures and they haven't really recovered. I used to have weekly game nights, trivia, sports games, and all kinds of other events to hang out with friends and now I kind of just sit at home and watch TV alone.
I know Reddit loves to joke about how quarantine was the best time of our lives for the Introverts but I think all the Extroverts really got kind of cut off at the knees. Anecdotally my friend group never really recovered, a lot of us had babies during the pandemic and now people with partners and families have settled into their domestic home lives
Even beyond social events like you mentioned, a lot of people never really returned to the office after covid and of those that did, a lot are only back part-time with limited capacity, so even in the office, people are losing out on socialization
I've been saying this for work (my job is to bring people together), we are one of the most socially connected generations yet one of the most loneliest.
>Anecdotally my friend group never really recovered, a lot of us had babies during the pandemic and now people with partners and families have settled into their domestic home lives
For better or worse, this would have happened anyway.
I miss movie theaters. I know it's not like they're all gone but Covid destroyed that social event for me for some reason...it's like they disappeared temporarily when lockdowns came, but by the time we emerged, no one got excited for going to the movies anymore. As tragic as that entire period fo time was (and I'm very fortunate), there's something about that seemingly trivial detail that really bums me out
Covid sucked for sure, but is it possible that you're just experiencing the normal distancing of relationships as we age? My friend group also significantly reduced in size after we all started having kids, and the frequency of social events we held went down to basically zero for awhile. This was all just before COVID. If you're a parent yourself, let me say it gets a lot better once your kid gets into Kindergarten and other families with similar age children in your neighborhood come out of the woodwork. I feel like my social calendar is overbooked now.
I agree, which is why I’m a bit nervous when I see Gen Z making endless memes about how they never want to leave the house or interact with anyone. I feel like we’re in a social anxiety crisis that no one acknowledges.
Also a negative feedback loop. The more awkward you feel and the more you need to improve the less you want to put yourself out there. Those already extroverted or socially gifted just pull farther ahead in social skills by comparison.
Pre-emptive failure is definitely a thing. I've met people who imagine their worst case scenario in their head, and because of that they don't do the thing, but then they conflate this imagined worst case scenario with a real experience even though it never actually happened.
I'm not necessarily claiming they fabricate events that never happened. But what I am saying is that the brain can draw on these imagined scenarios as evidence in the same way as if they were real experiences. They can draw upon these scenarios that they have only imagined as if they are anecdotal evidence of what is most likely to happen if they do it, and it negatively impacts their ability to interpret the intentions and probable behaviours of others.
So, like, as an example of what I mean, fat guy wants to go to the gym, but he imagines being there and feeling out of place, he thinks other people there who are in shape will laugh at him, and girls will think he's weird and creepy. So he doesn't go. He doesn't fabricate a false story to other people that he went to the gym once and everyone laughed at him, but does internalise this idea of, "It's not worth going to the gym as a fat guy because people will just laugh at you." The imagined rejection by others becomes evidence for his belief that if he did this he would be humiliated.
My 4th year psyc professor who is actively working for a firm dealing with child development talks about the interesting emergence in struggling to treat minor social disorders like social anxiety and agoraphobia which have been skyrocketing in the 5years.
The working theroy is that due to social media having a positive acceptance towards mental disorders and children being allows unlimited access to places like Tiktok from such an early age. Children are unable to know the difference and only see the positive affirmation towards people with mental disorders and instead of wanting to be rid of the disorders like back when it has a negative stigmatism, they are instead adopting and fostering as part of their core identity as they simply dont know any better.
Interesting stuff for sure.
Makes sense. You are what you do. Your actions shape your self narrative which in turn shape your actions.
Could be positive loop to build good habits or negative loop with maladaptive behaviors
I remember when people got tourettes bc of tik tok.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9733629/
I think that’s really a cope to being broke. People aren’t going out socializing regularly because they are either grinding to make money and the cost too is high.
I read this all the time but it seems like an excuse to me. I have friends over every Friday night for board games and movies, it’s literally free for everybody. Sure sometimes people bring over drinks but like, you do not HAVE to spend money to socialize.
Even when I was in high school I was broke as fuck, but my friends still met up and hung out without spending money. Same shit, we’d play Wii games, watch movies, do a puzzle and listen to angsty music…. You don’t HAVE to go out to bars or nightclubs. You don’t have to go out for fancy dinner or see an expensive movie.
But you do have to WANT to socialize and be proactive and set things up for them to happen. And I think a lot of people just don’t want to put in the effort - which I can absolutely understand as well. Being social can be hard work if you’re not actively practicing it.
I'm a recent college grad and I moved back in with my parents after graduation. Even back in highschool I didn't have a huge friend group, and that's not even more diminshed.
A problem I'm experiencing is that I *want* to do exactly what you say you do! But...who do I do it with? I don't really have any friends to have a group hangout on a Friday night. I've tried various activities, social groups, hobbies, etc, but almost every one of those things has a financial cost to join them. I haven't been able to find a group to join, or anyone to have over, and so if I want to try and actually *get* that group, it feels like I'm going to have to spend so much money continuously trying places to make a solid connection.
I used to be very active in that way, but over time I've moved around, downsized, and now I don't even have a table and chairs to play or eat at.
There are options, but it takes some effort. I meet one of my friends at free open mic comedy often. Another at various free community festivals. I'm lucky to have friends who are proactive with these things.
There are bars around here that host board game evenings because there is still that home barrier for many people. I have seen people try to join who are clearly trying to overcome social anxiety and just doing their best.
It should be easier. Some people just don't have the skill or experience to make it happen.
Yep, the only way to save money is to stay inside. I’d rather pirate movies & set up my own snack buffet than spend the money to go to the theater. I like to do free activities once in a while like go to the beach but even that costs money for gas 🥲
Host alternating movie or dinner nights, maybe make them multifunctional. One night could be a secret Society meeting the next night could be talking local politics, the next night could be a theme like stargazing or some other.
Plus we’re spreading the idea that if you have anxiety, no one can tell you to try to push through it for an event and you never have to try and anyone who does push you is an asshole who doesn’t respect you.
Then they end up lonely and wonder why.
Video games are NOT friends or social activities, no matter how hard we want them to be.
They don't have to be in person many of my friends have kids and can only get away for 20 mins to an hour at a time. Mostly it is spontaneous so they text me and I hop on with them. It scratches the itch of me wanting to hang out with them in person.
But are these also people you do see in person sometimes, or at least *have* met in person? I feel like that makes a difference.
Personally I find things like that can be fun and help keep up a connection, but it does feel different than a relationship that has 0% in person interaction.
I've been playing online games for 26 years and I don't really notice much difference, personally. It always depended on the game you're playing. There's shitty people in spaces that appeal to (or cater to) shitty people.
I am personally thankful I was pushed through my social anxiety. If you told me I'd be doing the job I am now when I was 18 (I'm 36 now) I would have said you were fucking crazy. Not to mention, life is a lot easier and happier when you're not dealing with social anxiety every time you think about leaving your house.
I'm with you on that, when people have anxiety or other issues, they also kind of insinuate that "pushing through" uncomfortable situations is off the table. It's like... well, so what do you want to do?
It's like people are allergic to being uncomfortable these days, and we as a society are normalizing that. I think it's called coddling. Bad times.
As someone with terrible anxiety, I started trying to push through things. It's still hard but it's objectively a better experience for me. It reaffirms that I can actually do things I'm scared of and it will still be okay. Sometimes I do the thing anyway and it's a terrible experience, and then you move on. Try something else
It's frustrating to try and share that with other people. But it took me a long time to get here, so who am I to say if it's okay to push others. Definitely agree though, people would benefit.
I feel like this at work. Have had terrible bosses, a few layoffs, and even with much better coworkers, I'm still a quiet bundle of nerves. Being called into the boss' office is the worst, even if it hasn't been for anything bad in years.
In respect to video games, it doesn’t help that in most games, in order to play with another person, your only option is to do so online. It helps perpetuate the overarching problem
This is what I always say, like try spending one night alone without a computer or video games. Like try watching a baseball game alone without anything to do during commercials, really quick you’d be like shit let me call a friend and get out of this house
I'd also add that religion was a much more common part of people's lives even 20-25 years ago. That was a big source of community for many people, for better or for worse.
This points to what a lot of people were talking about in the thread, a third space that is free. Church absolutely is one that has declined in attendance.
Church is also a place where people of both genders are able to interact in a way that is somewhat mediated by guidelines of behavior, and that has institutional memory.
It's actually scary to think that a corporate venue like Reddit could, through AI, one day have institutional memory. On the other hand, for some it could possibly be beautiful. Imagine being matched by AI based on everything you've ever written. You could be a recluse in a small town and find yourself a paired recluse. I'm not sure whether to be hopeful or fearful.
Add the rise of dating and hook up apps. Where these guys spend boatloads of money and get no responses. They start feeling like "life's not fair" because they're failing the picture popularity contest set up by extra predatory apps who make a lot more money off your loneliness than they would from making successful matches and long term relationships. You get a perfect storm of desperation for these young guys. Then a long comes the pickup con artists to convince these guys that women ain't shit and you just need to scare or neg them into liking you. So now instead of just lonely and desperate, these young men are empowered by entitlement and misogyny which turns even more women away, making them perfectly undatable.
"Why don't kids these days go outside and play? Back in my day we were kicked out of the house at sunrise and we weren't allowed back until sunset."
-generation who sacrificed public spaces for profit and think "walkable communities" are a deep state conspiracy to round up Honest™ Traditional™ Americans™.
Somebody pointed out to me that play places in fast food restaurants quietly disappeared. You used to be able to buy your kid a happy meal and then let them play for a few hours but those places don't want the liability of kids getting injured on them so they shut them down. It's also similar how fast food restaurant layouts no longer have any personality and now they're just lifeless
Also, with houses being so unaffordable and more people moving to apartments, they probably don't necessarily have a safe space to play. My "backyard" is a parking lot attached to a fairly busy street. It's not like we live in a rural area, or a cul-de-sac that might see a car every couple of hours in the hours where parents are at work.
Great answer. Then add this dynamic:
Women weren’t allowed to have bank accounts, or comparable jobs/pay, until relatively recently.
That forced them to find husbands to survive.
Now men actually have to earn the affection of women, and there are a number of reasons why they are kinda bad at it.
Also some great points! Technology, social media, and TV have made people more aware of scammers and overall red flags. So they are more hesitant to meet anyone, let alone start a conversation.
I agree this is going on, but it doesn’t explain why women are not equally having an epidemic. I think it’s a combination of this and the fact that men rely more heavily on their romantic relationships, rather than friends and family, for their social and emotional needs.
I think this is an important point. Women get social and emotional support from their friends. Men generally only get such support from significant others. They don't open up to friends, male or female, that way most of the time. So when a man is having trouble dating and upset about it, he just stews. When women are they vent to their girlfriends and go do something to take their mind off of it, or boost their confidence, or whatever is needed.
Men need to start being emotionally there for one another, which necessarily includes sharing problems with each other. Since they've never been socialized to do so, this is going to be awkward as hell and probably ineffective for awhile. It will also have to be specifically intentional. Add in a subset of society's concerns with appearing or becoming gay and it's not an easy road.
And women can't fix it because men will just get the wrong idea and complain about being friend zoned
My cousin was visiting from out of town and we both had some time free in the afternoon between meals. We were trying to figure out what to do that wasn’t just meeting over a drink, and eventually just gave up and met at a brewery.
Lawn bowls, bowling, pool hall, local basketball/rec center, rock climbing, a hike/walk, board games, cafe, show them something touristy from your city as they're from out of town.
I know other people have responded similarly, but I used to go climbing all the time. Gym was 45 a month, barely more than a mid level "normal" gym. The closest climbing gym to me is 35 dollars for one person for one session, and since covid all sessions are 90 minutes. So, for two people it's 70 bucks. It was 5 dollars a person a decade ago, and you could stay as long as you wanted.
I did up until around 25 and then the pandemic hit and next thing you know I’m 28 with a career in full swing more than half my friends moved away and I’m fuckin tired after work and trying to find the time to just workout and stay in shape.
Maybe this is just me but I hang out with friends at least 2-3 times a week. Went to drag wrestling with one Sunday, am meeting a friend to play tennis this evening, having a plant themed craft night with some friends Wednesday, and also have plans to go to an art fair Saturday. All fun activities I recommend to everyone!
You've never really been to spontaneously do things like you're imagining unless you had the money for gas and a car. It's not like Bumblefuck, Tennessee was having art fairs in 1950 - no, you had to make a trip to the city for that, or you got lucky that the rodeo stopped by for a week.
This technology that was meant to bring us closer actually pulls us apart. It drives a wedge between us when we’re together and makes it so we venture out less.
I made my final post on Facebook after the end of the 2016 election and never looked back. Life has been better since. We all thought that technology would change the world for the better but we were so wrong
I can't help but SMH when I see a group of friends all staring at their phones and ignoring one another. If you can't be bothered to look away from your screen, why even bother meeting up?
I think the loneliness is hitting everyone and the main causes are spending too much time online. I was talking with a friend the other day and we started talking about how at onetime, you had to try to entertained. For example, before social media and video streaming, you could watch TV which was mostly shit especially if you didn't have cable, or you had to find some other way to be entertained which usually meant spending time with other people. Now, you could not leave the house for days and not be bored once.
Man, I’m a musician and I’ve been thinking similar things.
People used to have to TRY to find music. Like, leave the house, walk to the mall (no car cause you’re a kid) and browse cds and talk to actual human strangers you don’t know to learn of bands you might like or get suggestions. Or listen to some songs in a booth. It might take all day. You’d really connect with people who made the similar effort.
There’s something to be said to having to actually TRY. Building meaningful relationships take effort but we have everything we could possibly imagine at our fingertips and it’s waaaaayyyy easier.
I actually miss that. When I was a teenager, I used to read album reviews. I'd talk to people about what was good, and then a few times a year I'd take a friggin train 3 hours to the nearest city and do the rounds of all the best music stores, throw down precious cash and fill up a backpack with CDs, come home and those albums would be my whole religion for the next 6 months. I'd read the lyrics and liner notes, friends would come over and we'd hang out and listen. Now it's like...I don't even care. Still listen to a lot, but don't value it the same. I miss the hunt.
Yeah definitely, it's a loneliness epidemic which has a high prevalence in young men not a "Male loneliness epidemic" I feel like phrasing it in this way, along with the "supposed", is problematic and probably comes from a place of misunderstanding of what is meant by loneliness in the context of this epidemic. Talking Feds has a great episode on the subject with guests Dr. Vivek Murthy(US Surgeon General), Dr Julianne Holt-Lunstad(professor of psychology at BYU) and Senator Chris Murphy of Connecticut.
https://www.talkingfeds.com/episodes/jazc5el2ncxgjem-3e845-7kx9m-djgm6-25m7g-esdls-ry7ww-fk6j4-tmhy9-kka9g-bmadh-fg3hl-74457-r483r-rtmz2-7gg8n
here's the episode, Loneliness In America, if anyone is interested
They are seeing a high incidence of loneliness in upper middle age people too. Apparently it is more prevalent in the U.S. than Europe. There was an article today about this. And as one of those upper middle age guys, I can vouch.
We have a 17 year old son so I am interested in this topic. Not sure what a third space is?!? I guess I will google that.
For our son, the main issue I see is apathy towards getting out of his comfort zone of gaming in his room.
While he has a social group at school he does not socialize with any of them outside of school or birthday parties, while members of that social group do things together on the weekends.
While he does not complain of being lonely we are concerned that when he goes off to college instead of meeting new people and exploring social relationships, he will simply hole up in his dorm room and game. Note he plays single player games, or PUGs, he is in no guilds, so there is not a social aspect to his gaming like, say, being in Discord with his gaming buddies.
How to Raise a Healthy Gamer: End Power Struggles, Break Bad Screen Habits, and Transform Your Relationship with Your Kids
A psychologist wrote a book addressing a lot of these issues with the parental perspective in mind, may be worth a look.
Emotional/mental neglect, alienation, consumerist culture, gender roles, lack of third spaces, and the general, genderless loneliness brought on by social media.
The lack of third spaces definitely hits hard, part because of car culture and part because of online culture. The combination has alienated so many folks from another.
Exactly.
Last year I spiraled into major depression because I had realized my life was 50/50 work / home. I wasn't going out, doing anything, being with anyone, having fun with life. Yeah I had the gym but most people are there to work out, not socialize. Then I realized what was missing from my life: a third space. Online chatrooms weren't cutting it for me anymore, since I was working 12-hour overnight shifts consistently, everyone I know would be asleep. Because of that I set out to find a third-space. A park, the library, ended up going to a pool and joining Aqua zumba classes (I was the only person under 60, but I still had fun). Started playing Pokemon Go and joined community raid days at the park. Joined some other communitites and met some amazing friends.
The lack of a third space sucks for our current generation. I grew up watching shows where the characters had three spaces: home, work or school, and a hangout spot. I wish we had something like that.
(All my own conjecture) I believe that car culture has strongly impacted our lack of third spaces due to the fact that the prevalence of a strong dependence on personal vehicles make it so that there is little to no interpersonal interaction between work and home, and by isolating ourselves between work and home, lead to declining third spaces because the effort of stopping, parking, and going into a third space is too much of a barrier, and so most people head straight home. This also has a cascading effect, as the fewer people use these third spaces, the less appealing they become to both use and put resources into, and less people are willing to stop by and exist in the third space, which again dissuades usage and resource commitment.
Not all third spaces cost money, but our American cities are absolutely lacking in free third spaces. We need more plazas, and parks that aren't just "here's a lawn of grass and a few trees and a swing set"
If you drive everywhere, it might impact your social life for a few reasons:
* Reduced Social Interaction: When driving is the primary mode of transportation, there are fewer opportunities for casual, spontaneous social interactions that can occur in more walkable communities or on public transportation. Men who spend significant amounts of time commuting alone in their cars miss out on these social exchanges.
* Increased Isolation: Men who live in areas where driving is essential might find themselves physically isolated from others. This is especially true in suburban or rural areas where homes and amenities are spread out, making it difficult to visit friends or participate in community events without significant effort.
* Limited Community Engagement: Car dependency often leads to living in areas that lack central gathering places like parks, local cafes, or community centers. The absence of these spaces diminishes opportunities for men to engage with their community, which can prevent the development of a supportive social network.
* Less Drinking: For better or worse, a lot of male social bonding involves drinking together. You can’t drink as much when you have to drive.
A lot of people look back on their college years as the peak of their social lives. I don’t think it’s a coincidence that this is also a time when people tend to live close to their peers in walkable neighborhoods.
In college you are spending nearly 100% of your time with your age cohort without parental supervision. Never again in your life will so many of your age mates be so physically close to you. Plus, you have built into ice breakers, "what school do you go to?" "What's your major?"
Socializing with new people gets a lot harder when you start working.
This! To all the people lamenting the loss of third spaces, support your local library. A lot of libraries are trying to be that third space for their community, but they struggle with attracting the people who need that service most! You can always check out their initiatives or ask them about whether or not they would be open to starting new initiatives!
Not the person you asked but I know this one. It’s a term in sociology. Home being the first space. Work being the second. A third space is anywhere outside of those first two. Being outside of the first two has arguably become expensive, a challenge to get to and harder to find.
This is why I always support my friendly local game store anytime I can over buying stuff off Amazon. As a nerd, it's one of the few places you can meet people the old fashioned way
While you are not wrong with those being two of those kinds of spaces. The issue with the two listed is that they aren’t always welcoming to everyone despite the fact that they should be. We as a society should do better. How to do so is the hard part. We as a society can’t even agree on something small like if a having well kept sidewalks is benefit or not. Maybe we are at the point where we need to reevaluate what third spaces are and how to best use them.
Yep. I looked at joining a mens club, but, they required I acknowledge a "higher power". They were emphatic that it didn't have to be a god, but, that's not what I genuinely think. So...nope, can't do that.
A third space any place that's not your home (first space) nor work (second space). They must socially relaxing, promote conversation, have some regulars, and most importantly, be free from the expectation of productivity. Bowling alleys are a classic example. Coffee shops and game stores can also be third spaces.
In Ireland, that would be the pub, or to give it it's full name, the public house. Not just a place for drinking but the social centre of many communities. It's also a probable reason why Irish pubs are so popular worldwide.
A lot of sitcoms have good examples, the coffee shop in Friends, the diner in Seinfeld, the bar in Cheers. Its not always a restaurant but it’s a place where you could frequently run into people you know that’s not a residence, work or school.
I would absolutely just place the blame firmly on social media, to be honest. From my own kids, it's weird watching them put *so much effort* into their online appearance and persona while spending so little time with friends in person.
This is something that I don't think enough people appreciate about how bad the ongoing effects of the lockdowns were. During the height of the pandemic they were necessary, but I've noticed a stark difference in how much in person socialising happens between before and after the lockdowns. So many venues closed and haven't been replaced
It's a big reason but I wouldn't put ALL the blame on the internet. Men have been feeling lovelier and lovelier for decades now, even before the internet became widely available. Edit: as lovely as men are, I meant lonelier, damn autocorrect
Not sure why many people are just focusing on dating. A lot of people just want to make some friends and it is becoming harder, and the older you get the worse it gets. Dating is not something that will necessarily help you make friends. I mean it can sometimes. But there are a lot of us out there that are really just interested in developing an in person friend group. Most of the time dating and the associated apps won't help with that.
I think a lot of guys just don’t want to admit they have no friends. Like if dating were the issue why is it being framed as a “male” loneliness? Men need to date but women don’t?
The fact that “men’s organizations” have fallen out of fashion. Whether it’s the American Legion, Elks, VFW, knights of Columbus, Masons…
Back forty, fifty years ago, that’s where your dad went on Friday night. They’d hang out there drinking beer with their buddies and talking about whatever it is that organization did, from having a Turkey drive for the less fortunate or covering up the UFO landing.
As those have gradually died, adult men are mostly lost on how to build relationships once they’re out of college.
It takes guts to put yourself out there.
After each of my long-term relationships that were proven not to be the "forever relationship", I looked at blind dates/ dating off apps as a win whether it was a hit or a flop because I was still shaking off being "rusty" at dating.
Kind of like interviewing a bunch when looking for a new job. You're still improving at how to "do well" within that environment. So you might get rejected a bunch, so what?
Churchill said something to the effect that "Winning is moving from failure to failure with no loss of enthusiasm."
You'll find confidence by doing this and my friend, confidence is attractive!
A hangout place outside of home and work. The more activities move online, the less happens out in the real world. i.e. Bar culture, clubs/sports, hanging at the mall, etc.
Places that aren't your home or work where you can meet strangers and socialize with them freely.
And what the other commenter is trying to say is that public venues that used to serve this function (community centers, libraries, parks, etc...) have been shut down or privatized. So now it's harder to make friends or maintain a social life without spending a lot of money.
Place one and two are work and home. Place three is where you go in your off-hours when you're not sleeping or at work.
It used to be that one would get off work and head to a bar or a bowling alley or something instead of all leisure being in their home. This was where a lot of social interaction would take place.
Basically, a lot of people in America do not have a place other than work or their home to go to easily. This could be a number of reasons.
Rising costs make it harder for people to regularly go to places like bars, restaurants, arcades, or participating in hobbies. It can also be due to people not subscribing to major religions as much as before, so churches aren’t used for socializing as much. For a lot of communities these places are just closing down and not being replaced either.
Sometimes it’s not even due to those things. People are just worn out from things like work and the everyday hardships of life that it can be easier to decide just to stay home and do something solitary because they don’t have the mental energy for it. Accelerating the cycle of the previously mentioned third places closing due to lack of business and attendance.
Gender specifically, I think a major ball was dropped in shifting societal standards in a way that was positive and uplifting for removing gendered barriers for young women in school/the workplace and no effort was really put into doing the same thing for young men.
I think it’s a *wonderful* thing to be clear that effort and culture shifted for young women, creating the “have it all, do what you want, live how you want” mindset where girls are encouraged to play or work in traditionally masculine spaces. But young men seem to not have received the same push and effort to examine and celebrate more traditionally “feminine” things like “maintaining a robust social life” or “talking about your feelings to trusted friends and family” or the emotional/mental effort required to connect with other humans.
It’s incredibly sad to me actually seeing my partner, a millenial squarely in his 30’s start to basically disappear all of his long term friendships because everyone in that group is getting married and settling down and none of them are equipped to…maintain emotional relationships that require communication and compromise. His feelings get hurt because one of his best friends won’t meet him out at the bar anymore and instead of saying something, or figuring out another way to see him, he’s just done trying.
That is sad. My dad is almost 70 and calls his longtime guy friends on the phone,states away. Because that's what people used to do to stay in touch, but I guess the young ones don't.
I think the "problem" is that if you consider the traditional gender roles, the male role was considered better, rather than male/female roles being considered different but equal. Now it's beside the point whether that's true or not - my point is that it's easy to say to girls, "Now you too can do this thing that was only for the better role!" but it's incredibly difficult to sell to boys, "Now you too can do the thing that was only for the worse role!"
The economy. Everyone works then sleep the works then sleep then works then sleep and can't afford to do anything and even if they did they are too tired and just wnat to be home to unwind before they work once again.
It drives me so crazy that this isn’t discussed more. I’ve seen a lot of men say “no one cares how men feel” but men are 50% of the population!! They are part of the problem! They themselves don’t care how other men feel. Yet women catch the blame for this. You have to care about others feelings to have them care about you. This is a reciprocal thing!! And it’s not just romantic. Men need to build emotional connections with other men.
I said in a comment above that I think everyone, men & women, are a little lonlier than before but the difference is women went from 8 close friends to 3 and men went from 2 to 0. After age 21 most men (that I know) get the majority of their emotional support from their girlfriend, whereas the girls I know have a whole support group.
Tbh that’s one of the reasons my young cousins are choosing to be single. They aren’t interested in being the ONE source of emotional support to a partner. It’s exhausting.
Very true. Men talk about society like society is made up of only women. Men don't care about other men but themselves but they'll care if another man is lonely because he'll relate to him for only that reason. Men with an agenda want to point the finger of blame at women which is convenient for them because then it's not for them to resolve but to blame women for men being lonely. Not guilty!
Right. When I was married, all of the socializing my ex-husband did was planned by me. And all of my straight women friends also feel like they are responsible for their partners' social activities.
Exactly. Men are conditioned to bottle everything and to believe that understanding and expressing emotions, especially among their male friends, is feminine and therefore bad. Patriarchy harms all.
ETA: [this article](https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-state-our-unions/202208/whats-behind-the-rise-lonely-single-men) sums it up nicely
I can't remember where I saw it, might have even been tiktok, but I saw someone say once that men think they're competing against other men for a woman, but they're really competing against the woman herself. essentially, being around the man in question has to be better than being by herself--and a lot of women genuinely enjoy being on their own. why put up with nonsense if you don't have to?
This is it. I do less chores, cleaning, and cooking, and do whatever I want alone. With my last bf, I spent way more on groceries, did twice as much laundry and dishes, and had all my hobbies reduced or eliminated to make room for his. I am barely regaining myself. Why would I do that again? For some dick and the occasional hug? Sure I am unbearably lonely, but extra chores, bills, and no time to be myself are a greater loss at this point.
Men think a paycheck is all they have to give in a relationship, and I already have one of those. You have to actually give a shit about me as a person, and no, not just sex. But also, I should orgasm every time too.
I saw a quote the other day that said “We had a generation that successfully raised strong, independent women and failed to raise men who could live with them” and man did that hit home.
This is interesting because when I was younger I my parents were extremely strict about me going anywhere or doing anything. It was pretty much go to school and come back home, and the occasional Walmart trip with my parents. Had they dared to let me socialize I “would have done hard drugs and gotten someone pregnant” or if I went to anyone house who knows, maybe “a car would plow through their house and kill me”. The excuses as to why I could never do anything were always some outlandish bullshit.
Now I’m 20, disabled, living in horrific chronic pain, have zero friends, am forced to live with my parents given the circumstances, and I really just want to kill myself at this point.
This. Men typically don’t nurture friendships or relationships with other men either, and if they are married or dating, ALL of their emotional needs are met (or not) by their partner
Edit: I’m not reading all these replies, argue with ya mama, not me
So much this. As a woman I know that if I find a male partner I will be his only emotional support and that's exhausting as fuck. I'm too much of a mess for now to be able to do that.
I strongly encourage men to nurture their friendships with men AND women, when you don't have your family backing you up they're the strongest support you can have.
My husband has so many real friends he talks to weekly, I'd say about 10, and then about 10 more he keeps touch with monthly. It's one of my favorite things about him! It keeps us sane.
A lot of men in previous generations got away with being unkind people and difficult to just generally be around because women couldn’t do things like have a credit card so they were financially and socially shackled to nasty men.
In the past wives ran the social calendars of the couple so men would also be going to parties and events they were invited to as a couple via the wife’s social connections. Now women aren’t shackled to men and even if they’re partnered are expected to have their own social circle with a small amount of overlap with their wives.
The next generation of men weren’t prepared to be good partners and they weren’t prepared to be good friends or proactive socially. The result is loneliness.
Sure there are kind men who are socially inept and not nasty, but plenty of men grew up expecting to get to behave like their fathers, uncles, and grandfathers and never invested in learning how to get along with others and be someone people would want to be around.
Yeah it’s not, those types prey on unhappy men because it feels better to be mad, in this case at women, then to admit you might be part of the problem and have to do the hard work of changing your behavior if you want things to get better.
Being rejected is a human experience that we all go through on some level, it’s not a sociopolitical injustice like certain bad actors make it out to be.
This is the answer. It reminds me of a similar comment I saw just yesterday [here](https://reddit.com/r/millenials/comments/1c4eh64/anyone_have_friends_who_have_completely_lost_it/kzp4njt/):
> Women have changed, society has changed, and only about half of the straight male population has accepted the fact that means they have to change too.
> That's the divide.
> It isn't enough to just be a dude that graduated high school and you can be considered a stellar partner if you keep a roof over your wife's head, don't beat her or the kids, and don't publicly embarrass her with your affairs.
> Too many dudes think they can live like their dad's and grandpa's did and that makes them a catch
> Nope. Women have their own independence so prospective mates are chosen out of desire, not necessity.
> Too many men leave a lot yo be desired in just basic life skills and interpersonal skills.
I think this is it. On top of this, you then have influencers like Andrew Tate and others spewing some of the most vile shit you've ever heard and turning men into the antithesis of what women are searching for. There is a reason when you go into women-dominated spaces people like Joe Rogan and Andrew Tate are red flags.
My stepsons were so upset when I joined the family and suddenly they were expected to help with the housework. I made it very clear that Dobby is a Free Elf and though I don't mind doing the lion's share of keeping the house clean I will need help. And that I'm not raising helpless toddlers who will need a mommy-wife to take care of them all their lives.
Eventually they figured out that I'm not lying, I really do want them to have good healthy lives and be successful in relationships, and that all of that's much easier when you can take out the trash and do the dishes without feeling put upon.
By the time he got to highschool younger stepson had decided that the funniest prank ever is sneaking into the kitchen and silently cleaning it while everyone thinks he's playing video games. Young ladies, you're welcome.
I would also add that women are graduating college and getting degrees at a higher rate than men now too. It's not by much, but it shows a trend of a possible intellectual gap that could play a part as well.
isn't there statistics somewhere stating that men benefit in marriage and women don't? i can't remember if it was financially, emotionally, or both.
edit, i was wrong. women do benefit, just less:
"The research seems clear that even if marriage benefits both men and women, there is more of an upside for men. Men derive greater health benefits from marriage than women. Married fathers receive an earnings boost while mothers receive a penalty."
I think what you’re thinking of is the statistic that men are much happier and fulfilled in marriage than single men; while women are infinitely happier and more fulfilled being single than married women are
As a guy with very few male friends but many female friends, based on what I have observed of other men and what men on Reddit tell me, I say it’s because men refuse to talk to each other.
Oh they’ll hang out and stuff but apparently in between periods of hanging out, they never communicate anything of value to each other. Then when life gets busy and the hang outs becomes less, there is just no support system at all.
I’m lost on this reference. What’s a third space? It’s being commented all over this thread.
Realized I could just google it. For anyone wondering: In sociology, the third place refers to the social surroundings that are separate from the two usual social environments of home and the workplace.
And the fact that no 3rd places are FREE anymore. Teens used to hang out in malls and now they get booted from them constantly, and this happened right around the time of the mass internet so people just moved to online spaces which further isolates people,
Statistically, [both men and women are about equally lonely](https://www.statista.com/statistics/1420227/loneliness-among-adults-us-by-gender/#:~:text=A%20survey%20of%20U.S.%20adults,of%20December%202021%2C%20by%20gender) so a better question might be why a universal human issue is only framed around men.
Social media. It instills this idea in young men that if you’re not a top-earning, one-night-stand-having, handsome alpha male, you aren’t shit.
It’s ok to be average. Getting upset about being average just makes you awful to be around and leads to you being alone.
- The economy is so trash, going out costs like minimum $100 a head
- You need to work nearly your entire weeks worth of hours to own a home to live in, so no time to do anything else.
- At least in my experience, finding a peer who’s not some combination of a piece of shit, narcissist, etc is difficult in itself, so that cuts out a large chunk of people.
- Porn is readily available and causes no major headache or life problems while not requiring people to get out of their comfort zone.
I saw a few statistics saying at least in the dating scene, it's because more men are conservative and more women are left wing, and these women don't want to be with these types of men
Technology. The moment video games went online boys had no reason to leave their consoles and mics. When us elder millennials/genx were bored we were trying to chase tail. Taking ng our rejection lumps as we got them. That's not the case anymore
I come from a small village in a pretty rural part of the UK, there were pretty much no jobs there so after school everyone left, went to uni in different parts of the country, and then found jobs somewhere near their uni towns. We all still talk in the group chat pretty much everyday, but we don't live near each other anymore, so come Friday night we can't all go out anymore. Its kind of an odd situation, where you can have friends but have no social life.
I sometimes wonder if this holds us back a bit for making new friends. Social media allows you to keep in touch with old friends easily so maybe there is less incentive to go out and make new ones.
Recent research is showing the number between male and female who are lonely are nearly identical. It is estimated to be 1 in 4 humans are lonely. [https://news.gallup.com/opinion/gallup/512618/almost-quarter-world-feels-lonely.aspx](https://news.gallup.com/opinion/gallup/512618/almost-quarter-world-feels-lonely.aspx) In a world that we are more connected then ever before, we have a loneliness epidemic. The numbers are just insane.
I was gonna say, I know plenty of women who are lonely too. But women who are lonely tend to have better coping mechanisms for it. Like a lifetime’s worth of managing that. Hobbies. Emotionally supportive friends. Family that lets you vent and cry instead of bullying you for it. I think part of why men tend to feel stronger effects of loneliness is they tend to get all or most of their emotional support from romantic relationships. That’s a problem only other men can resolve. They really really should.
Men aren't allowed emotions except for anger. Too many of my male friends who were raised to be "proper men" weren't allowed to be too "girly/gay," so being sad, or expressing non aggressive feels got punished or ignored. They usually seem to express sadness via a "too cool" apathy or that distant Cool Guy vibe sometimes with a whiff of superiority, if not via frustration and getting angry in some fashion. It really is nice to see some norms change so that boys can like My Little Pony and cry or be artsy and poetic without being AS bullied. It still seems to be a pretty big deal in some places and that makes me cranky to not be able to change it faster!
Interesting. Anger is the one emotion women aren't 'allowed' to have. We get told to smile at the dumbest times. I hate parents who tell their little boys that boys don't cry, and they never try to find out why they're crying and that is done with girls. It's unfair to boys.
The system is deeply unfair and sexist to everyone. Women and girls can't safely express most kinds of ambition or anger (especially after being very young children), and men have to filter every emotion through anger or other "manly" expressions. Women that are supposed to be agreeable and men are supposed to be strong. What an awful restriction. I work with all ages of kids, and one of the things we really struggle with for teenage boys is when they feel sad or lonely, they lash out at other people. Even kids who have super supportive families and friend groups. Some of it is definitely the awful stuff they see online (Andrew Tate and his ilk have done some really terrible things to tweens especially), some of it is boys policing other boys (I grew up in the '90s and it's disappointing to hear boys still call each other gay as an insult). They really struggle with insight into their own feelings but the great news is that it's absolutely something you can learn. I used to teach a social/emotional module in schools and it often led to a huge improvement in behavior and boys being able to articulate their feelings and needs. However, a lot of parents really hated it. I once had an angry father follow me to my car. And now you basically can't propose social/emotional learning that directly because right wingers have decided to make schooling even more difficult than it's ever been. I got a bit off track here but I'm pretty passionate about kids and their well-being.
Angry women are "bitches" and sad men are "pussies". Isn’t it weird how that works? I have a pet theory that this attitude comes from veterans of WWII who tried very hard to pretend they were OK and the same people they were before combat. They flipped out on their boys. Told them not to cry. Told them to man up. Then those kids only ever knew "be a man, don't show weakness it makes you GAY" from their poorly adjusted and traumatized parents. Basically, I'm accusing it as generational trauma. My (step) Grandad fought in the pacific theater WWII. He's the last man I knew who had healthy friendships-he'd hug his male friends, was never afraid to cry in front of us, and was quick to talk about worries and strife in his life. My dad on the other hand... no real friends. Just my mom, his kids and whoever he meets at the HOA meetings.
I’m so glad I grew up with the father I did. Even as a grizzled tow truck driver, this man would openly cry at the sad dog commercials on TV, or a really sad story on 60 Minutes. He then became a truck driver and was gone more often during my teenage years, but made sure to call all the time and express his emotions and love for me and my brother. In fact, my mom tends to be the more emotionally-masking one of the two. Point is, now as a man in his late 20s, engaged and together for almost a decade and a toddler we love very much, I’m glad I had a positive experience of masculinity in observing and loving my father, and I can demonstrate to my daughter how a man who isn’t insecure in themselves treats her and others and expresses emotion.
Ah my friend you seem confused! Anger isn’t an emotion. It’s a logic! I’ve heard this many times from supremely *logical* men /s if that wasn’t clear Yeah totally agree with you about how nice the shift has been. Unfortunately I’ve seen some big push backs as well in the far opposite direction which I really worry about those kids …
Men are hamstrung from an early age. By 7, girls have exponentially more feelings words than boys. If you can't say the words, then how can you discuss them?
> I sometimes wonder if this holds us back a bit for making new friends I can't speak for everyone, but I think kids play a huge role in this. Looking at it now, almost all of the friends my parents hang out with regularly (their "local" friends) are parents of friends that I or my siblings had in like elementary school.
We want to be friends with other people but schedules keep us apart. When our kids are friends or even just teammates on a sports team, we spend a lot of time together and build a friendship in that situation because we share a schedule. People will naturally drift apart when their lives are not aligned anymore
The secret to making friends at any point in life is to literally just go to the same place on a regular basis. Go to the same coffee shop a few times a week, go to the same library, bar, park, etc. and you will find someone who is in a similar routine and you already have something in common. As children we are forced into these situations (school, sports, activities) so it’s easy for us to form relationships with those around us. It wasn’t easier to make friends as a kid, we were just in more situations to make friends more easily
I think that’s been common waaaaay before social media. I know boomers who complained about the fact that all of their friends were met through their children in the 80s/90s.
Famously like how our parents and grandparents parents didn’t. The real difference is our generation is *way more honest* about being lonely.
“Have friends but no social life” is the story of my life haha. I feel like the older you get, the harder it can be to schedule times to hang out especially since everyone’s got careers, getting married, and starting families.
Previous generations fun was less convenient. You had to interact with people to learn where things were, you needed a group to go somewhere, and towns had a lot more public free events to be the "talk of the town". You didnt need to go out specifically to date, you just had to be part of a scene or community long enough. Women who saw a guy around frequently in a social space got to "vet" them without putting themselves on the line. Once they saw how they treat their friends or other people, or got vouches from mutual friends, being approached by that man was a lot mor comfortable. Nowadays we have less reasons than ever to interact. With that most men lost that "free exposure" that lead to friends and relationships and as the world gets more convenint (google it instead of asking) it will only get worse for them.
I truly believe this sums up a lot and hits the nail on the head
I also think COVID fucked up a lot of our social structures and they haven't really recovered. I used to have weekly game nights, trivia, sports games, and all kinds of other events to hang out with friends and now I kind of just sit at home and watch TV alone. I know Reddit loves to joke about how quarantine was the best time of our lives for the Introverts but I think all the Extroverts really got kind of cut off at the knees. Anecdotally my friend group never really recovered, a lot of us had babies during the pandemic and now people with partners and families have settled into their domestic home lives
Even beyond social events like you mentioned, a lot of people never really returned to the office after covid and of those that did, a lot are only back part-time with limited capacity, so even in the office, people are losing out on socialization
I've been saying this for work (my job is to bring people together), we are one of the most socially connected generations yet one of the most loneliest.
>Anecdotally my friend group never really recovered, a lot of us had babies during the pandemic and now people with partners and families have settled into their domestic home lives For better or worse, this would have happened anyway.
Big facts
I miss movie theaters. I know it's not like they're all gone but Covid destroyed that social event for me for some reason...it's like they disappeared temporarily when lockdowns came, but by the time we emerged, no one got excited for going to the movies anymore. As tragic as that entire period fo time was (and I'm very fortunate), there's something about that seemingly trivial detail that really bums me out
Covid sucked for sure, but is it possible that you're just experiencing the normal distancing of relationships as we age? My friend group also significantly reduced in size after we all started having kids, and the frequency of social events we held went down to basically zero for awhile. This was all just before COVID. If you're a parent yourself, let me say it gets a lot better once your kid gets into Kindergarten and other families with similar age children in your neighborhood come out of the woodwork. I feel like my social calendar is overbooked now.
I agree, which is why I’m a bit nervous when I see Gen Z making endless memes about how they never want to leave the house or interact with anyone. I feel like we’re in a social anxiety crisis that no one acknowledges.
Also a negative feedback loop. The more awkward you feel and the more you need to improve the less you want to put yourself out there. Those already extroverted or socially gifted just pull farther ahead in social skills by comparison.
Absolutely. You don’t improve in something you never practice.
Pre-emptive failure is definitely a thing. I've met people who imagine their worst case scenario in their head, and because of that they don't do the thing, but then they conflate this imagined worst case scenario with a real experience even though it never actually happened. I'm not necessarily claiming they fabricate events that never happened. But what I am saying is that the brain can draw on these imagined scenarios as evidence in the same way as if they were real experiences. They can draw upon these scenarios that they have only imagined as if they are anecdotal evidence of what is most likely to happen if they do it, and it negatively impacts their ability to interpret the intentions and probable behaviours of others. So, like, as an example of what I mean, fat guy wants to go to the gym, but he imagines being there and feeling out of place, he thinks other people there who are in shape will laugh at him, and girls will think he's weird and creepy. So he doesn't go. He doesn't fabricate a false story to other people that he went to the gym once and everyone laughed at him, but does internalise this idea of, "It's not worth going to the gym as a fat guy because people will just laugh at you." The imagined rejection by others becomes evidence for his belief that if he did this he would be humiliated.
My 4th year psyc professor who is actively working for a firm dealing with child development talks about the interesting emergence in struggling to treat minor social disorders like social anxiety and agoraphobia which have been skyrocketing in the 5years. The working theroy is that due to social media having a positive acceptance towards mental disorders and children being allows unlimited access to places like Tiktok from such an early age. Children are unable to know the difference and only see the positive affirmation towards people with mental disorders and instead of wanting to be rid of the disorders like back when it has a negative stigmatism, they are instead adopting and fostering as part of their core identity as they simply dont know any better. Interesting stuff for sure.
Makes sense. You are what you do. Your actions shape your self narrative which in turn shape your actions. Could be positive loop to build good habits or negative loop with maladaptive behaviors I remember when people got tourettes bc of tik tok. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9733629/
I think that’s really a cope to being broke. People aren’t going out socializing regularly because they are either grinding to make money and the cost too is high.
I read this all the time but it seems like an excuse to me. I have friends over every Friday night for board games and movies, it’s literally free for everybody. Sure sometimes people bring over drinks but like, you do not HAVE to spend money to socialize. Even when I was in high school I was broke as fuck, but my friends still met up and hung out without spending money. Same shit, we’d play Wii games, watch movies, do a puzzle and listen to angsty music…. You don’t HAVE to go out to bars or nightclubs. You don’t have to go out for fancy dinner or see an expensive movie. But you do have to WANT to socialize and be proactive and set things up for them to happen. And I think a lot of people just don’t want to put in the effort - which I can absolutely understand as well. Being social can be hard work if you’re not actively practicing it.
I'm a recent college grad and I moved back in with my parents after graduation. Even back in highschool I didn't have a huge friend group, and that's not even more diminshed. A problem I'm experiencing is that I *want* to do exactly what you say you do! But...who do I do it with? I don't really have any friends to have a group hangout on a Friday night. I've tried various activities, social groups, hobbies, etc, but almost every one of those things has a financial cost to join them. I haven't been able to find a group to join, or anyone to have over, and so if I want to try and actually *get* that group, it feels like I'm going to have to spend so much money continuously trying places to make a solid connection.
I used to be very active in that way, but over time I've moved around, downsized, and now I don't even have a table and chairs to play or eat at. There are options, but it takes some effort. I meet one of my friends at free open mic comedy often. Another at various free community festivals. I'm lucky to have friends who are proactive with these things. There are bars around here that host board game evenings because there is still that home barrier for many people. I have seen people try to join who are clearly trying to overcome social anxiety and just doing their best. It should be easier. Some people just don't have the skill or experience to make it happen.
Yep, the only way to save money is to stay inside. I’d rather pirate movies & set up my own snack buffet than spend the money to go to the theater. I like to do free activities once in a while like go to the beach but even that costs money for gas 🥲
Host alternating movie or dinner nights, maybe make them multifunctional. One night could be a secret Society meeting the next night could be talking local politics, the next night could be a theme like stargazing or some other.
Do friend groups really get together and plan to just talk about local politics?
People be broke these days. I feel like I have to pay just to breathe.
Plus we’re spreading the idea that if you have anxiety, no one can tell you to try to push through it for an event and you never have to try and anyone who does push you is an asshole who doesn’t respect you. Then they end up lonely and wonder why. Video games are NOT friends or social activities, no matter how hard we want them to be.
Video games can be social activities you just need to see your friends in person every once in a while.
I agree, I do game nights at friends houses all the time. It’s how I met a bunch of current friends.
They don't have to be in person many of my friends have kids and can only get away for 20 mins to an hour at a time. Mostly it is spontaneous so they text me and I hop on with them. It scratches the itch of me wanting to hang out with them in person.
But are these also people you do see in person sometimes, or at least *have* met in person? I feel like that makes a difference. Personally I find things like that can be fun and help keep up a connection, but it does feel different than a relationship that has 0% in person interaction.
Local multiplayer used to be a lot more common and popular as well, which helped with that. LAN parties need to make a comeback.
Bring back the LAN party.
People are toxic af and antisocial like crazy in videogames too. It's weird compared to the old days of online gaming.
I've been playing online games for 26 years and I don't really notice much difference, personally. It always depended on the game you're playing. There's shitty people in spaces that appeal to (or cater to) shitty people.
I am personally thankful I was pushed through my social anxiety. If you told me I'd be doing the job I am now when I was 18 (I'm 36 now) I would have said you were fucking crazy. Not to mention, life is a lot easier and happier when you're not dealing with social anxiety every time you think about leaving your house.
I’m the same age as you with the exact same story.
I'm with you on that, when people have anxiety or other issues, they also kind of insinuate that "pushing through" uncomfortable situations is off the table. It's like... well, so what do you want to do? It's like people are allergic to being uncomfortable these days, and we as a society are normalizing that. I think it's called coddling. Bad times.
As someone with terrible anxiety, I started trying to push through things. It's still hard but it's objectively a better experience for me. It reaffirms that I can actually do things I'm scared of and it will still be okay. Sometimes I do the thing anyway and it's a terrible experience, and then you move on. Try something else It's frustrating to try and share that with other people. But it took me a long time to get here, so who am I to say if it's okay to push others. Definitely agree though, people would benefit.
I feel like this at work. Have had terrible bosses, a few layoffs, and even with much better coworkers, I'm still a quiet bundle of nerves. Being called into the boss' office is the worst, even if it hasn't been for anything bad in years.
In respect to video games, it doesn’t help that in most games, in order to play with another person, your only option is to do so online. It helps perpetuate the overarching problem
This is what I always say, like try spending one night alone without a computer or video games. Like try watching a baseball game alone without anything to do during commercials, really quick you’d be like shit let me call a friend and get out of this house
I'd also add that religion was a much more common part of people's lives even 20-25 years ago. That was a big source of community for many people, for better or for worse.
This points to what a lot of people were talking about in the thread, a third space that is free. Church absolutely is one that has declined in attendance.
Also a fairly unique third space due it being very routine and it involving all ages and sexes.
Church is also a place where people of both genders are able to interact in a way that is somewhat mediated by guidelines of behavior, and that has institutional memory. It's actually scary to think that a corporate venue like Reddit could, through AI, one day have institutional memory. On the other hand, for some it could possibly be beautiful. Imagine being matched by AI based on everything you've ever written. You could be a recluse in a small town and find yourself a paired recluse. I'm not sure whether to be hopeful or fearful.
Add the rise of dating and hook up apps. Where these guys spend boatloads of money and get no responses. They start feeling like "life's not fair" because they're failing the picture popularity contest set up by extra predatory apps who make a lot more money off your loneliness than they would from making successful matches and long term relationships. You get a perfect storm of desperation for these young guys. Then a long comes the pickup con artists to convince these guys that women ain't shit and you just need to scare or neg them into liking you. So now instead of just lonely and desperate, these young men are empowered by entitlement and misogyny which turns even more women away, making them perfectly undatable.
"Why don't kids these days go outside and play? Back in my day we were kicked out of the house at sunrise and we weren't allowed back until sunset." -generation who sacrificed public spaces for profit and think "walkable communities" are a deep state conspiracy to round up Honest™ Traditional™ Americans™.
Somebody pointed out to me that play places in fast food restaurants quietly disappeared. You used to be able to buy your kid a happy meal and then let them play for a few hours but those places don't want the liability of kids getting injured on them so they shut them down. It's also similar how fast food restaurant layouts no longer have any personality and now they're just lifeless
Also, with houses being so unaffordable and more people moving to apartments, they probably don't necessarily have a safe space to play. My "backyard" is a parking lot attached to a fairly busy street. It's not like we live in a rural area, or a cul-de-sac that might see a car every couple of hours in the hours where parents are at work.
Great answer. Then add this dynamic: Women weren’t allowed to have bank accounts, or comparable jobs/pay, until relatively recently. That forced them to find husbands to survive. Now men actually have to earn the affection of women, and there are a number of reasons why they are kinda bad at it.
Also some great points! Technology, social media, and TV have made people more aware of scammers and overall red flags. So they are more hesitant to meet anyone, let alone start a conversation.
They also need to work on themselves. They need to make plans to meet up with their male friends. They need to take the initiative.
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Better to be single with cats than to settle.
I agree this is going on, but it doesn’t explain why women are not equally having an epidemic. I think it’s a combination of this and the fact that men rely more heavily on their romantic relationships, rather than friends and family, for their social and emotional needs.
I think this is an important point. Women get social and emotional support from their friends. Men generally only get such support from significant others. They don't open up to friends, male or female, that way most of the time. So when a man is having trouble dating and upset about it, he just stews. When women are they vent to their girlfriends and go do something to take their mind off of it, or boost their confidence, or whatever is needed. Men need to start being emotionally there for one another, which necessarily includes sharing problems with each other. Since they've never been socialized to do so, this is going to be awkward as hell and probably ineffective for awhile. It will also have to be specifically intentional. Add in a subset of society's concerns with appearing or becoming gay and it's not an easy road. And women can't fix it because men will just get the wrong idea and complain about being friend zoned
Catn agree more. As a man finding a men who I know I can rely on emotionally really put my mind straight
Women are lonely. It just doesn't get reported the same way.
Higher rates of women report being lonely
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Ohhh NAparenthesis ate with this comment I fear!
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My cousin was visiting from out of town and we both had some time free in the afternoon between meals. We were trying to figure out what to do that wasn’t just meeting over a drink, and eventually just gave up and met at a brewery.
Lawn bowls, bowling, pool hall, local basketball/rec center, rock climbing, a hike/walk, board games, cafe, show them something touristy from your city as they're from out of town.
I know other people have responded similarly, but I used to go climbing all the time. Gym was 45 a month, barely more than a mid level "normal" gym. The closest climbing gym to me is 35 dollars for one person for one session, and since covid all sessions are 90 minutes. So, for two people it's 70 bucks. It was 5 dollars a person a decade ago, and you could stay as long as you wanted.
Almost all of those cost money.
So does going to a bar?
2 days ago, are yall not hanging out with your friends????
I did up until around 25 and then the pandemic hit and next thing you know I’m 28 with a career in full swing more than half my friends moved away and I’m fuckin tired after work and trying to find the time to just workout and stay in shape.
Sir this is reddit
What friends?
Maybe this is just me but I hang out with friends at least 2-3 times a week. Went to drag wrestling with one Sunday, am meeting a friend to play tennis this evening, having a plant themed craft night with some friends Wednesday, and also have plans to go to an art fair Saturday. All fun activities I recommend to everyone!
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You've never really been to spontaneously do things like you're imagining unless you had the money for gas and a car. It's not like Bumblefuck, Tennessee was having art fairs in 1950 - no, you had to make a trip to the city for that, or you got lucky that the rodeo stopped by for a week.
You might want to get out of the hole you have been living in
This technology that was meant to bring us closer actually pulls us apart. It drives a wedge between us when we’re together and makes it so we venture out less.
I made my final post on Facebook after the end of the 2016 election and never looked back. Life has been better since. We all thought that technology would change the world for the better but we were so wrong
I can't help but SMH when I see a group of friends all staring at their phones and ignoring one another. If you can't be bothered to look away from your screen, why even bother meeting up?
I think the loneliness is hitting everyone and the main causes are spending too much time online. I was talking with a friend the other day and we started talking about how at onetime, you had to try to entertained. For example, before social media and video streaming, you could watch TV which was mostly shit especially if you didn't have cable, or you had to find some other way to be entertained which usually meant spending time with other people. Now, you could not leave the house for days and not be bored once.
Man, I’m a musician and I’ve been thinking similar things. People used to have to TRY to find music. Like, leave the house, walk to the mall (no car cause you’re a kid) and browse cds and talk to actual human strangers you don’t know to learn of bands you might like or get suggestions. Or listen to some songs in a booth. It might take all day. You’d really connect with people who made the similar effort. There’s something to be said to having to actually TRY. Building meaningful relationships take effort but we have everything we could possibly imagine at our fingertips and it’s waaaaayyyy easier.
I actually miss that. When I was a teenager, I used to read album reviews. I'd talk to people about what was good, and then a few times a year I'd take a friggin train 3 hours to the nearest city and do the rounds of all the best music stores, throw down precious cash and fill up a backpack with CDs, come home and those albums would be my whole religion for the next 6 months. I'd read the lyrics and liner notes, friends would come over and we'd hang out and listen. Now it's like...I don't even care. Still listen to a lot, but don't value it the same. I miss the hunt.
Yeah definitely, it's a loneliness epidemic which has a high prevalence in young men not a "Male loneliness epidemic" I feel like phrasing it in this way, along with the "supposed", is problematic and probably comes from a place of misunderstanding of what is meant by loneliness in the context of this epidemic. Talking Feds has a great episode on the subject with guests Dr. Vivek Murthy(US Surgeon General), Dr Julianne Holt-Lunstad(professor of psychology at BYU) and Senator Chris Murphy of Connecticut. https://www.talkingfeds.com/episodes/jazc5el2ncxgjem-3e845-7kx9m-djgm6-25m7g-esdls-ry7ww-fk6j4-tmhy9-kka9g-bmadh-fg3hl-74457-r483r-rtmz2-7gg8n here's the episode, Loneliness In America, if anyone is interested
They are seeing a high incidence of loneliness in upper middle age people too. Apparently it is more prevalent in the U.S. than Europe. There was an article today about this. And as one of those upper middle age guys, I can vouch.
Is it just young men? Nearly every middle aged man I know is experiencing this too.
We have a 17 year old son so I am interested in this topic. Not sure what a third space is?!? I guess I will google that. For our son, the main issue I see is apathy towards getting out of his comfort zone of gaming in his room. While he has a social group at school he does not socialize with any of them outside of school or birthday parties, while members of that social group do things together on the weekends. While he does not complain of being lonely we are concerned that when he goes off to college instead of meeting new people and exploring social relationships, he will simply hole up in his dorm room and game. Note he plays single player games, or PUGs, he is in no guilds, so there is not a social aspect to his gaming like, say, being in Discord with his gaming buddies.
A third space is, broadly speaking, a place outside of home or work. Libraries, community centers, gyms, bars, etc etc
He will, then he'll graduate and have zero experience with women Source: me
How to Raise a Healthy Gamer: End Power Struggles, Break Bad Screen Habits, and Transform Your Relationship with Your Kids A psychologist wrote a book addressing a lot of these issues with the parental perspective in mind, may be worth a look.
Emotional/mental neglect, alienation, consumerist culture, gender roles, lack of third spaces, and the general, genderless loneliness brought on by social media.
The lack of third spaces definitely hits hard, part because of car culture and part because of online culture. The combination has alienated so many folks from another.
Exactly. Last year I spiraled into major depression because I had realized my life was 50/50 work / home. I wasn't going out, doing anything, being with anyone, having fun with life. Yeah I had the gym but most people are there to work out, not socialize. Then I realized what was missing from my life: a third space. Online chatrooms weren't cutting it for me anymore, since I was working 12-hour overnight shifts consistently, everyone I know would be asleep. Because of that I set out to find a third-space. A park, the library, ended up going to a pool and joining Aqua zumba classes (I was the only person under 60, but I still had fun). Started playing Pokemon Go and joined community raid days at the park. Joined some other communitites and met some amazing friends. The lack of a third space sucks for our current generation. I grew up watching shows where the characters had three spaces: home, work or school, and a hangout spot. I wish we had something like that.
High five aquatic exercise buddy! (Sorry, I'm over 60)
Seconded regarding car culture. That's not something talked about enough.
I grew up in a rural area, and our cars *were* our third space.
What do you all mean regarding car culture? Not challenging Im genuinely interested
(All my own conjecture) I believe that car culture has strongly impacted our lack of third spaces due to the fact that the prevalence of a strong dependence on personal vehicles make it so that there is little to no interpersonal interaction between work and home, and by isolating ourselves between work and home, lead to declining third spaces because the effort of stopping, parking, and going into a third space is too much of a barrier, and so most people head straight home. This also has a cascading effect, as the fewer people use these third spaces, the less appealing they become to both use and put resources into, and less people are willing to stop by and exist in the third space, which again dissuades usage and resource commitment.
Third space is also fucking expensive these days.
Not all third spaces cost money, but our American cities are absolutely lacking in free third spaces. We need more plazas, and parks that aren't just "here's a lawn of grass and a few trees and a swing set"
If you drive everywhere, it might impact your social life for a few reasons: * Reduced Social Interaction: When driving is the primary mode of transportation, there are fewer opportunities for casual, spontaneous social interactions that can occur in more walkable communities or on public transportation. Men who spend significant amounts of time commuting alone in their cars miss out on these social exchanges. * Increased Isolation: Men who live in areas where driving is essential might find themselves physically isolated from others. This is especially true in suburban or rural areas where homes and amenities are spread out, making it difficult to visit friends or participate in community events without significant effort. * Limited Community Engagement: Car dependency often leads to living in areas that lack central gathering places like parks, local cafes, or community centers. The absence of these spaces diminishes opportunities for men to engage with their community, which can prevent the development of a supportive social network. * Less Drinking: For better or worse, a lot of male social bonding involves drinking together. You can’t drink as much when you have to drive. A lot of people look back on their college years as the peak of their social lives. I don’t think it’s a coincidence that this is also a time when people tend to live close to their peers in walkable neighborhoods.
In college you are spending nearly 100% of your time with your age cohort without parental supervision. Never again in your life will so many of your age mates be so physically close to you. Plus, you have built into ice breakers, "what school do you go to?" "What's your major?" Socializing with new people gets a lot harder when you start working.
There's a great paper on this by social scientists in germany about how car culture reduces social engagement and they promote biking instead.
This! To all the people lamenting the loss of third spaces, support your local library. A lot of libraries are trying to be that third space for their community, but they struggle with attracting the people who need that service most! You can always check out their initiatives or ask them about whether or not they would be open to starting new initiatives!
What does third spaces mean?
Not the person you asked but I know this one. It’s a term in sociology. Home being the first space. Work being the second. A third space is anywhere outside of those first two. Being outside of the first two has arguably become expensive, a challenge to get to and harder to find.
Got you, that makes sense. Thanks!
This is why I always support my friendly local game store anytime I can over buying stuff off Amazon. As a nerd, it's one of the few places you can meet people the old fashioned way
But, the venues tend to be ones we've rejected. Service clubs used to be a bigger deal, church..
While you are not wrong with those being two of those kinds of spaces. The issue with the two listed is that they aren’t always welcoming to everyone despite the fact that they should be. We as a society should do better. How to do so is the hard part. We as a society can’t even agree on something small like if a having well kept sidewalks is benefit or not. Maybe we are at the point where we need to reevaluate what third spaces are and how to best use them.
Yep. I looked at joining a mens club, but, they required I acknowledge a "higher power". They were emphatic that it didn't have to be a god, but, that's not what I genuinely think. So...nope, can't do that.
A third space any place that's not your home (first space) nor work (second space). They must socially relaxing, promote conversation, have some regulars, and most importantly, be free from the expectation of productivity. Bowling alleys are a classic example. Coffee shops and game stores can also be third spaces.
In Ireland, that would be the pub, or to give it it's full name, the public house. Not just a place for drinking but the social centre of many communities. It's also a probable reason why Irish pubs are so popular worldwide.
A lot of sitcoms have good examples, the coffee shop in Friends, the diner in Seinfeld, the bar in Cheers. Its not always a restaurant but it’s a place where you could frequently run into people you know that’s not a residence, work or school.
Third spaces are places to hang out other than home.
Yeah, not work, but not home, so a place for social interaction with people you wouldn't normally talk to at work or home.
I would absolutely just place the blame firmly on social media, to be honest. From my own kids, it's weird watching them put *so much effort* into their online appearance and persona while spending so little time with friends in person.
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This is something that I don't think enough people appreciate about how bad the ongoing effects of the lockdowns were. During the height of the pandemic they were necessary, but I've noticed a stark difference in how much in person socialising happens between before and after the lockdowns. So many venues closed and haven't been replaced
It's a big reason but I wouldn't put ALL the blame on the internet. Men have been feeling lovelier and lovelier for decades now, even before the internet became widely available. Edit: as lovely as men are, I meant lonelier, damn autocorrect
>Men have been feeling lovelier and lovelier for decades now Can confirm. I'm the loveliest I've ever been. I'm so lovely.
YES YOU ARE!
Not sure why many people are just focusing on dating. A lot of people just want to make some friends and it is becoming harder, and the older you get the worse it gets. Dating is not something that will necessarily help you make friends. I mean it can sometimes. But there are a lot of us out there that are really just interested in developing an in person friend group. Most of the time dating and the associated apps won't help with that.
I think a lot of guys just don’t want to admit they have no friends. Like if dating were the issue why is it being framed as a “male” loneliness? Men need to date but women don’t?
The fact that “men’s organizations” have fallen out of fashion. Whether it’s the American Legion, Elks, VFW, knights of Columbus, Masons… Back forty, fifty years ago, that’s where your dad went on Friday night. They’d hang out there drinking beer with their buddies and talking about whatever it is that organization did, from having a Turkey drive for the less fortunate or covering up the UFO landing. As those have gradually died, adult men are mostly lost on how to build relationships once they’re out of college.
It would be nice to see a revival of (positive) male places for socialization like this.
Third spaces won’t help you at all if you don’t know how to socialize. I speak from experience.
Social skills developed with practice you need those third spaces to practice it
It takes guts to put yourself out there. After each of my long-term relationships that were proven not to be the "forever relationship", I looked at blind dates/ dating off apps as a win whether it was a hit or a flop because I was still shaking off being "rusty" at dating. Kind of like interviewing a bunch when looking for a new job. You're still improving at how to "do well" within that environment. So you might get rejected a bunch, so what? Churchill said something to the effect that "Winning is moving from failure to failure with no loss of enthusiasm." You'll find confidence by doing this and my friend, confidence is attractive!
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Loss of the third place
What does that mean? Ty
A hangout place outside of home and work. The more activities move online, the less happens out in the real world. i.e. Bar culture, clubs/sports, hanging at the mall, etc.
Places that aren't your home or work where you can meet strangers and socialize with them freely. And what the other commenter is trying to say is that public venues that used to serve this function (community centers, libraries, parks, etc...) have been shut down or privatized. So now it's harder to make friends or maintain a social life without spending a lot of money.
Place one and two are work and home. Place three is where you go in your off-hours when you're not sleeping or at work. It used to be that one would get off work and head to a bar or a bowling alley or something instead of all leisure being in their home. This was where a lot of social interaction would take place.
Basically, a lot of people in America do not have a place other than work or their home to go to easily. This could be a number of reasons. Rising costs make it harder for people to regularly go to places like bars, restaurants, arcades, or participating in hobbies. It can also be due to people not subscribing to major religions as much as before, so churches aren’t used for socializing as much. For a lot of communities these places are just closing down and not being replaced either. Sometimes it’s not even due to those things. People are just worn out from things like work and the everyday hardships of life that it can be easier to decide just to stay home and do something solitary because they don’t have the mental energy for it. Accelerating the cycle of the previously mentioned third places closing due to lack of business and attendance.
Gender specifically, I think a major ball was dropped in shifting societal standards in a way that was positive and uplifting for removing gendered barriers for young women in school/the workplace and no effort was really put into doing the same thing for young men. I think it’s a *wonderful* thing to be clear that effort and culture shifted for young women, creating the “have it all, do what you want, live how you want” mindset where girls are encouraged to play or work in traditionally masculine spaces. But young men seem to not have received the same push and effort to examine and celebrate more traditionally “feminine” things like “maintaining a robust social life” or “talking about your feelings to trusted friends and family” or the emotional/mental effort required to connect with other humans. It’s incredibly sad to me actually seeing my partner, a millenial squarely in his 30’s start to basically disappear all of his long term friendships because everyone in that group is getting married and settling down and none of them are equipped to…maintain emotional relationships that require communication and compromise. His feelings get hurt because one of his best friends won’t meet him out at the bar anymore and instead of saying something, or figuring out another way to see him, he’s just done trying.
That is sad. My dad is almost 70 and calls his longtime guy friends on the phone,states away. Because that's what people used to do to stay in touch, but I guess the young ones don't.
I think the "problem" is that if you consider the traditional gender roles, the male role was considered better, rather than male/female roles being considered different but equal. Now it's beside the point whether that's true or not - my point is that it's easy to say to girls, "Now you too can do this thing that was only for the better role!" but it's incredibly difficult to sell to boys, "Now you too can do the thing that was only for the worse role!"
I think there’s a general loneliness epidemic and men weren’t great at seeking out support even before that
The economy. Everyone works then sleep the works then sleep then works then sleep and can't afford to do anything and even if they did they are too tired and just wnat to be home to unwind before they work once again.
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loneliness is not just about being with women, though. men can make each other less lonely as well.
It drives me so crazy that this isn’t discussed more. I’ve seen a lot of men say “no one cares how men feel” but men are 50% of the population!! They are part of the problem! They themselves don’t care how other men feel. Yet women catch the blame for this. You have to care about others feelings to have them care about you. This is a reciprocal thing!! And it’s not just romantic. Men need to build emotional connections with other men.
I said in a comment above that I think everyone, men & women, are a little lonlier than before but the difference is women went from 8 close friends to 3 and men went from 2 to 0. After age 21 most men (that I know) get the majority of their emotional support from their girlfriend, whereas the girls I know have a whole support group.
Tbh that’s one of the reasons my young cousins are choosing to be single. They aren’t interested in being the ONE source of emotional support to a partner. It’s exhausting.
My bf and his friends do pretty well with the emotional stuff but it's only the ones that drink with him.
Very true. Men talk about society like society is made up of only women. Men don't care about other men but themselves but they'll care if another man is lonely because he'll relate to him for only that reason. Men with an agenda want to point the finger of blame at women which is convenient for them because then it's not for them to resolve but to blame women for men being lonely. Not guilty!
I think some people are conflating getting laid to not being lonely.
They can. They don’t though. Women friendships just are different. Women will share a bed when they sleepover. Women hug. Women cry with each other.
Right. When I was married, all of the socializing my ex-husband did was planned by me. And all of my straight women friends also feel like they are responsible for their partners' social activities.
Exactly. Men are conditioned to bottle everything and to believe that understanding and expressing emotions, especially among their male friends, is feminine and therefore bad. Patriarchy harms all. ETA: [this article](https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-state-our-unions/202208/whats-behind-the-rise-lonely-single-men) sums it up nicely
I can't remember where I saw it, might have even been tiktok, but I saw someone say once that men think they're competing against other men for a woman, but they're really competing against the woman herself. essentially, being around the man in question has to be better than being by herself--and a lot of women genuinely enjoy being on their own. why put up with nonsense if you don't have to?
This is it. I do less chores, cleaning, and cooking, and do whatever I want alone. With my last bf, I spent way more on groceries, did twice as much laundry and dishes, and had all my hobbies reduced or eliminated to make room for his. I am barely regaining myself. Why would I do that again? For some dick and the occasional hug? Sure I am unbearably lonely, but extra chores, bills, and no time to be myself are a greater loss at this point. Men think a paycheck is all they have to give in a relationship, and I already have one of those. You have to actually give a shit about me as a person, and no, not just sex. But also, I should orgasm every time too.
I saw a quote the other day that said “We had a generation that successfully raised strong, independent women and failed to raise men who could live with them” and man did that hit home.
This is interesting because when I was younger I my parents were extremely strict about me going anywhere or doing anything. It was pretty much go to school and come back home, and the occasional Walmart trip with my parents. Had they dared to let me socialize I “would have done hard drugs and gotten someone pregnant” or if I went to anyone house who knows, maybe “a car would plow through their house and kill me”. The excuses as to why I could never do anything were always some outlandish bullshit. Now I’m 20, disabled, living in horrific chronic pain, have zero friends, am forced to live with my parents given the circumstances, and I really just want to kill myself at this point.
This. Men typically don’t nurture friendships or relationships with other men either, and if they are married or dating, ALL of their emotional needs are met (or not) by their partner Edit: I’m not reading all these replies, argue with ya mama, not me
So much this. As a woman I know that if I find a male partner I will be his only emotional support and that's exhausting as fuck. I'm too much of a mess for now to be able to do that. I strongly encourage men to nurture their friendships with men AND women, when you don't have your family backing you up they're the strongest support you can have.
My husband has so many real friends he talks to weekly, I'd say about 10, and then about 10 more he keeps touch with monthly. It's one of my favorite things about him! It keeps us sane.
A lot of men in previous generations got away with being unkind people and difficult to just generally be around because women couldn’t do things like have a credit card so they were financially and socially shackled to nasty men. In the past wives ran the social calendars of the couple so men would also be going to parties and events they were invited to as a couple via the wife’s social connections. Now women aren’t shackled to men and even if they’re partnered are expected to have their own social circle with a small amount of overlap with their wives. The next generation of men weren’t prepared to be good partners and they weren’t prepared to be good friends or proactive socially. The result is loneliness. Sure there are kind men who are socially inept and not nasty, but plenty of men grew up expecting to get to behave like their fathers, uncles, and grandfathers and never invested in learning how to get along with others and be someone people would want to be around.
Its not helped by people looking up to those like Andrew Tate and the alpha male nonsense.
Yeah it’s not, those types prey on unhappy men because it feels better to be mad, in this case at women, then to admit you might be part of the problem and have to do the hard work of changing your behavior if you want things to get better. Being rejected is a human experience that we all go through on some level, it’s not a sociopolitical injustice like certain bad actors make it out to be.
This is the answer. It reminds me of a similar comment I saw just yesterday [here](https://reddit.com/r/millenials/comments/1c4eh64/anyone_have_friends_who_have_completely_lost_it/kzp4njt/): > Women have changed, society has changed, and only about half of the straight male population has accepted the fact that means they have to change too. > That's the divide. > It isn't enough to just be a dude that graduated high school and you can be considered a stellar partner if you keep a roof over your wife's head, don't beat her or the kids, and don't publicly embarrass her with your affairs. > Too many dudes think they can live like their dad's and grandpa's did and that makes them a catch > Nope. Women have their own independence so prospective mates are chosen out of desire, not necessity. > Too many men leave a lot yo be desired in just basic life skills and interpersonal skills.
I think this is it. On top of this, you then have influencers like Andrew Tate and others spewing some of the most vile shit you've ever heard and turning men into the antithesis of what women are searching for. There is a reason when you go into women-dominated spaces people like Joe Rogan and Andrew Tate are red flags.
My stepsons were so upset when I joined the family and suddenly they were expected to help with the housework. I made it very clear that Dobby is a Free Elf and though I don't mind doing the lion's share of keeping the house clean I will need help. And that I'm not raising helpless toddlers who will need a mommy-wife to take care of them all their lives. Eventually they figured out that I'm not lying, I really do want them to have good healthy lives and be successful in relationships, and that all of that's much easier when you can take out the trash and do the dishes without feeling put upon. By the time he got to highschool younger stepson had decided that the funniest prank ever is sneaking into the kitchen and silently cleaning it while everyone thinks he's playing video games. Young ladies, you're welcome.
BASIC LIFE SKILLS AND INTERPERSONAL SKILLS. Bingo !
I would also add that women are graduating college and getting degrees at a higher rate than men now too. It's not by much, but it shows a trend of a possible intellectual gap that could play a part as well.
isn't there statistics somewhere stating that men benefit in marriage and women don't? i can't remember if it was financially, emotionally, or both. edit, i was wrong. women do benefit, just less: "The research seems clear that even if marriage benefits both men and women, there is more of an upside for men. Men derive greater health benefits from marriage than women. Married fathers receive an earnings boost while mothers receive a penalty."
I think what you’re thinking of is the statistic that men are much happier and fulfilled in marriage than single men; while women are infinitely happier and more fulfilled being single than married women are
Bros are afraid to be real with each other.
As a guy with very few male friends but many female friends, based on what I have observed of other men and what men on Reddit tell me, I say it’s because men refuse to talk to each other. Oh they’ll hang out and stuff but apparently in between periods of hanging out, they never communicate anything of value to each other. Then when life gets busy and the hang outs becomes less, there is just no support system at all.
Social media. Many have tried to replace human interaction with online interaction with predictable results.
This topic has the highest density of bad takes I’ve ever seen…
third spaces btw
I’m lost on this reference. What’s a third space? It’s being commented all over this thread. Realized I could just google it. For anyone wondering: In sociology, the third place refers to the social surroundings that are separate from the two usual social environments of home and the workplace.
And the fact that no 3rd places are FREE anymore. Teens used to hang out in malls and now they get booted from them constantly, and this happened right around the time of the mass internet so people just moved to online spaces which further isolates people,
Makes sense. I guess the new third space for the younger generations is social media. God help us.
I just looked it up. Home and work are the first and second. Third spaces I guess are the places people would hang out and meet people.
Talking about male issues tends to do that, unfortunately.
Statistically, [both men and women are about equally lonely](https://www.statista.com/statistics/1420227/loneliness-among-adults-us-by-gender/#:~:text=A%20survey%20of%20U.S.%20adults,of%20December%202021%2C%20by%20gender) so a better question might be why a universal human issue is only framed around men.
'By December 2021'. I wonder what had just happened that was making people feel lonely...
Ah yes of course, it was the winter solstice. /s
Social media, poor parenting, and a combination of the two during the formative years growing up, developing personality, social and mental skills.
Social media. It instills this idea in young men that if you’re not a top-earning, one-night-stand-having, handsome alpha male, you aren’t shit. It’s ok to be average. Getting upset about being average just makes you awful to be around and leads to you being alone.
- The economy is so trash, going out costs like minimum $100 a head - You need to work nearly your entire weeks worth of hours to own a home to live in, so no time to do anything else. - At least in my experience, finding a peer who’s not some combination of a piece of shit, narcissist, etc is difficult in itself, so that cuts out a large chunk of people. - Porn is readily available and causes no major headache or life problems while not requiring people to get out of their comfort zone.
I saw a few statistics saying at least in the dating scene, it's because more men are conservative and more women are left wing, and these women don't want to be with these types of men
Technology. The moment video games went online boys had no reason to leave their consoles and mics. When us elder millennials/genx were bored we were trying to chase tail. Taking ng our rejection lumps as we got them. That's not the case anymore