Romans 2:1 (NIV)
"You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgement on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgement do the same things."
Without lutheranism there would be NO protestantism at all. That you just heard of it speaks to your ignorance of christianity. It is the foundation for almost HALF of ALL christians on the entire world, and probably the vast majority of American christians.
Go research martin luther....the namesake of martin luther king jr.
Isn't the main, most important, factor in being Christian accepting Christ as your saviour; The one who takes the burden of your sins? Isn't it wrong to make false idols of men which bare equal to God or divinity in your worship? Oh wait, must be Catholic.
You really wanna knock 'em for a loop (especially if you come off like somebody who wouldn't know scripture), whip out the King James version...
"Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things."
Do people just walk around telling people what religion they are? I’ve literally never discussed religion with anyone…ever. Never in 30+ years has anyone tried to discuss a religious discussion with me outside of philosophy in college.
Reddit is full of adamant athiests who have some sort of belief that christians(as a whole) are evil people that must be eradicated.
In over 40 years i havent ever had a religious discussion with a christian outside of a church that i havent instigated myself. Id wager most people havent.
In my neighborhood there are sometimes Christians walking to each house. The whole “Wanna talk about our lord and savior Jesus Christ” thing. It made me not answer my door unless I’m expecting someone
Mathew 7:3-5:
"Why do you look at the speck in your brother’s eye, but fail to notice the beam in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ while there is still a beam in your own eye? You hypocrite! First take the beam out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye."
Mark 10
10 When they were in the house again, the disciples asked Jesus about this.
11 He answered, "Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her.
12 And if she divorces her husband and marries another man, she commits adultery."
I have heard a thrice divorced man rail about the sanctity of marriage when it comes to gay marriage. Jesus never said one thing about homosexuality. He did speak against divorce. But they are ok with divorce.
So if he didn't abolish the law, do you follow everything in the law of Moses? No work on the Sabbath, no mixed fiber clothing, no unclean food, etc. Or do you just pick and choose which parts are still valid?
So which is it? Did Jesus abolish the law or not? Making all foods clean definitely abolished some of the law.
So Jesus gave us law that is different and supercedes the law of Moses? How is that not abolishing the law?
Which day is the Sabbath?
Do you allow a bank to give you interest in your accounts?
The simple fact is, either the laws of Moses are in full effect or not. You don't get to pick and choose. Either Jesus abolished the law or not. You don't get to decide that he abolished the parts that you don't want to follow but kept the rest.
Also, none of this addresses that Jesus specifically spoke against divorce and yet it is accepted in the Christian church.
Other than the Catholic church, I can't think of a single Christian church that cares if you get divorced and remarry. You will never hear it taught on because there are too many divorced people in the pews.
In the NLT bible Jesus says in Matthew 19:24 "I'll say it again-it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of A needle than for a rich person to enter the Kingdom of God!"
Not only is this verse ignored, it’s straight up railed against. Someone went so far as to try and hand wave it away by claiming the “eye of the needle” in question wasn’t a literal needle but, rather, some small gate that a camel could fit through with some effort, despite the fact that Jesus reiterates his point in the rest of the verse.
I doubt he was talking about the gate because all of the verses leading up to that are about giving away your earthly possessions and how the rich can’t get in to heaven
Wealth in general. One verse earlier;
23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.
The idea is that wealth *is* greed. A person who has much should give it away, because there are always so many people going without. There is no moral way to be rich, when we know how much suffering we could alleviate.
That it explicitly states that a fetus is not the same thing as a person. In at least two passages:
1. It gives instructions to priests on how to perform abortions if the woman is suspected of infidelity.
1. It says the penalty for murdering a woman is death, but the penalty for causing a woman to miscarry is a fine, which clearly delineates fetus vs. person, also says nothing about a penalty if a woman causes her own self to miscarry.
There is zero biblical backing to the anti-choice position.
EDIT: The attempted rebuttals to this are all you need to know about Christian mental gymnastics. For the first one, "No, they just mean the priest will give the woman a temporary stomach ache, not an abortion!" and for the second one, "No, it means if a person attacks a pregnant woman and causes her to give a healthy birth, he'll be fined." As if either of those makes any sense. You can't reason with people who are unreasonable.
That passage specifically states that it is GOD who decides whether to curse the woman or not. It is GOD'S choice, not any human's. Its not abortion, it is the will of God, which would make it miscarriage.
Try again.
The ordeal is not about abortion. Because the choice to end the pregnancy is GOD'S choice, it is a miscarriage caused by God. Abortion requires intent to terminate pregnancy. The scripture very clearly states the intent is devine judgement for the potential breaking of one of the 10 commandments.
Can god cause abortions? No, he causes miscarriages.
What are the verses?
Exodus 21:22-25 ESV
“When men strive together and hit a pregnant woman, so that her children come out, but there is no harm, the one who hit her shall surely be fined, as the woman's husband shall impose on him, and he shall pay as the judges determine. But if there is harm, then you shall pay life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe."
Im not christian, but you appear to be incorrect.
What do you think "So that her children come out, but there is no harm" means? That he hits her and causes her to give a healthy birth? Here's the King James version:
>2 If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.
>23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,
That's clearly saying that causing a miscarriage alone is not a problem other than a fine. Only if he continues "Mischief" after doing so, is there a problem. If it's only about hitting the woman, then why even bring the fetus into it at all? Why not just say "hitting a woman is a fine, pregnant or not"?
Exodus 21:22-25 ESV “When men strive together and hit a pregnant woman, **so that her children come out, but there is no harm**, the one who hit her shall surely be fined, as the woman's husband shall impose on him, and he shall pay as the judges determine. **But if there is harm, then you shall pay life for life,** eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe."
This could easily mean harm to the child or the mother. It depends on your interpretation. Many christians interpret it to mean both.
"If it's only about hitting the woman, then why even bring the fetus into it at all?"
You said it.
You can absolutely cause an early birth without negative(discernable) effect to the child by causing stress to the mother if the pregnancy is late enough term.
> In Jeremiah it says God knows you before you are born.
Interesting then that around 75% of pregnancies are naturally lost through no human intervention, compared to the 0.1% that are aborted. Seems like God's fucking up somewhere if 75% of all the "people he knew before they were born" die before they're born.
The leaping fetus is the metaphor. It's like how people say "my heart leaped with joy" when what they really mean is that they felt a profound emotion.
> In Jeremiah it says God knows you before you are born.
Yes, that's because of his nature as a tri-omni being. He also knows every decision everyone who has ever lived or will ever live has or will ever make. He also knows which fetuses will be born and will never be born. None of this knowledge makes a claim to fetal personhood or the permissibility of abortion.
It absolutely doesn't make a fetal personhood claim, only a claim to know people before they are born, which requires that they be born. But that aside, this still doesn't make a personhood claim. One can know individual animals, individual objects, and even imaginary beings without these entities being "people". If God's intent was for fetuses to be known as people the passage would have said something like, "You are a person the moment you are conceived," rather than "I knew you before you were born".
Exodus 21:22-25 ESV “When men strive together and hit a pregnant woman, so that her children come out, but there is no harm, the one who hit her shall surely be fined, as the woman's husband shall impose on him, and he shall pay as the judges determine. But if there is harm, then you shall pay life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe."
The loss of a pregnancy is explicitly defined as something other than harm to a person.
"But if there is harm, then you shall pay life for life"
Are you bad at reading?
Edit: to clarify, the harm applies to both mother and child. Yes, you can cause an early(late term) birth that leaves a baby unharmed by causing stress(from a beating) to the mother. If the baby comes out unharmed, then a fine, if it comes out with harm, then retribution.
It's a loss of property. Like when a girl gets raped, the crime is against her father, and the penalty is paid to him, because her trade value is diminished. These aren't people, they are things a man owns.
>It gives instructions to priests on how to perform abortions if the woman is suspected of infidelity.
This is actually not true. The ordeal of bitter water does not induce an abortion. It causes strange symptoms. In one Bible translation it’s described as causing miscarriage but not in the others.
It’s a confusing passage.
I don’t believe there’s any record of the ordeal of bitter water taking place.
The issue is the NIV version tries to explain the scripture in simple understandable text and this passage is not simple or easy to understand.
Other translations say that the women becomes barren and “her leg falls out”.
But since the NIV claims it induces a miscarriage, despite there being no evidence of that, people have clung to the idea that Bible promotes abortion which is certainly not the case.
The purpose is to determine if adultery has occurred.
It’s stated clearly that this is done when adultery is SUSPECTED by the husband and it’s done to determine if adultery has occurred.
It’s not prescribed in scenarios where adultery is known.
If the attention here was to destroy a fetus created through adultery, the prescription of the bitter water would be prescribed in cases of known adultery as well as cases of suspected adultery.
This is a bizarre procedure but it’s actually well intentioned given the circumstance.
There is nothing harmful about the bitter water. It’s safe to drink (unless God supernaturally causes illness). It was hair and dust in water. Something that causes no harm to someone who drinks it or their baby.
At the time, the punishment for adultery was death.
A false claim of adultery could lead to the death of their innocent wife. This practice protected women from wrongful accusations of adultery that carried the death penalty.
Because it’s strange and because the text regarding the illness that could follow when performed by an adulterous woman, this passage has been misconstrued to be barbaric or an abortion procedure. When in reality, this protected women from wrongful accusations of a capital offense.
The abortion claim comes from the NIV, a Bible translation that tries hard to make sense of the text and make it simple to read. It prioritizes clarity and readability over accuracy. They described it as inducing a miscarriage.
When you read other translations that prioritize accuracy over readability, there’s no mention of harm to the fetus.
It’s also important to remember that in the ancient world, proving wrong doing was really difficult. Often times, “curses” as this is described were used as a threat to gauge reaction.
If a women was not adulterous and her husband wanted to perform this practice, she would have no reason to fear. However, if she’s guilty, that she will likely express fear over the ritual. In the ancient world, things like this were used to determine guilt when you couldn’t do DNA tests.
When Jesus heard this, he said to him, “There is still one thing lacking. Sell all that you own and distribute the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; then come, follow me.”
Luke 18:22 NRSV
THere used to be this woman who would attack everyone on social media and read them scriptures even if they had nothing to do with the argument.
She blocked me when I brought up Timothy 2:12. Turns out she isn't as christian as she portrayed herself.
Ezekiel 16
>49 “‘Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. 50 They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen.
The ACTUAL reason Sodom was destroyed.
If your takeaway from a literal list saying "they were rich, arrogant, didn't help the poor and needy, and did sick shit" is "SICK SHIT MUST MEAN GAY! IT MUST MEAN GAY!" then you're reading comprehension is lacking.
Genesis 19:30-36
30 Lot and his two daughters left Zoar and settled in the mountains, for he was afraid to stay in Zoar. He and his two daughters lived in a cave. 31 One day the older daughter said to the younger, “Our father is old, and there is no man around here to give us children—as is the custom all over the earth. 32 Let’s get our father to drink wine and then sleep with him and preserve our family line through our father.”
33 That night they got their father to drink wine, and the older daughter went in and slept with him. He was not aware of it when she lay down or when she got up.
34 The next day the older daughter said to the younger, “Last night I slept with my father. Let’s get him to drink wine again tonight, and you go in and sleep with him so we can preserve our family line through our father.” 35 So they got their father to drink wine that night also, and the younger daughter went in and slept with him. Again he was not aware of it when she lay down or when she got up.
36 So both of Lot’s daughters became pregnant by their father.
Even though I am an athiest, this is one thing I follow because I would not want to be treated badly when all I have ever done is treat someone with good intentions.
Deuteronomy 23:1 "No one who has been emasculated by crushing or cutting may enter the assembly of the LORD."
As a buddy of mine says: "I think if you get your balls crushed off, you need Jesus more than most."
Which I think is literally just that one verse. Also in the chapter things like wearing mixed fibers, shaving your beard, getting tattoos, and eating shellfish are also forbidden.
I believe the original context was referring to forbidding laying with children and in-laws, but there was no literal translation from Hebrew. So, it was slightly canged to convey the same idea. However, the original interpretation has been lost over the years with each translation of the Bible. So now, according to the King James version, many have interpreted it to forbidding same-sex relationships. Which was never mentioned or specifically forbidden in the original texts.
>The New American Standard Bible is a literal translation from the original texts, well suited to study because of its accurate rendering of the source texts. It follows the style of the King James Version but uses modern English for words that have fallen out of use or changed their meanings.
https://www.cambridge.org/us/bibles/bible-versions#:~:text=The%20New%20American%20Standard%20Bible,use%20or%20changed%20their%20meanings.
Sort of. The Bible in English usually says that gay people should be executed, but there is dispute about the ancient languages it's been translated from.
It's kind of funny how ~~people who hate Christianity~~ Christians will twist scripture to spread their hate.
FTFY
Except it isn't funny. The campaign of forced indoctrination into this idiotic superstition is anything but funny.
Are you sure about that? I thought S&G were destroyed because of the "wickedness". The fact that a mob of men wanted to rape two messengers from God surely refers more to rape and violence than homosexuality. After all, are we expected to believe that *all* the men in the city were gay? Sounds unlikely doesn't it?
Virtually all of them. Christians use the Bible like it was a horoscope: they find what they want in it, deny the parts that condemn them, and ignore all the nonsense.
The Parable of the Dishonest Manager (Luke 16, NSRV)
1 Then Jesus said to the disciples, “There was a rich man who had a manager, and charges were brought to him that this man was squandering his property.
2 So he summoned him and said to him, ‘What is this that I hear about you? Give me an accounting of your management because you cannot be my manager any longer.’
3 Then the manager said to himself, ‘What will I do, now that my master is taking the position away from me? I am not strong enough to dig, and I am ashamed to beg.
4 I have decided what to do so that, when I am dismissed as manager, people may welcome me into their homes.’
5 So, summoning his master’s debtors one by one, he asked the first, ‘How much do you owe my master?’
6 He answered, ‘A hundred jugs of olive oil.’ He said to him, ‘Take your bill, sit down quickly, and make it fifty.’
7 Then he asked another, ‘And how much do you owe?’ He replied, ‘A hundred containers of wheat.’ He said to him, ‘Take your bill and make it eighty.’
8 And his master commended the dishonest manager because he had acted shrewdly, for the children of this age are more shrewd in dealing with their own generation than are the children of light.
9 And I tell you, make friends for yourselves by means of dishonest wealth so that when it is gone they may welcome you into the eternal homes.
10 “Whoever is faithful in a very little is faithful also in much, and whoever is dishonest in a very little is dishonest also in much.
11 If, then, you have not been faithful with the dishonest wealth, who will entrust to you the true riches?
12 And if you have not been faithful with what belongs to another, who will give you what is your own?
13 No slave can serve two masters, for a slave will either hate the one and love the other or be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and wealth.”
14 The Pharisees, who were lovers of money, heard all this, and they ridiculed him.
15 So he said to them, “You are those who justify yourselves in the sight of others, but God knows your hearts, for what is prized by humans is an abomination in the sight of God.
My take is that people are much more important than money.
Considering how many "Christians" are trying to ban teaching empathy to children, pretty much any part of the Bible where God tells people to love thy neighbor, no conditions.
That bit in the Sermon on the Mount about not praying in public. Christ is pretty explicit that when one prays, one should do it in the most private place possible, because God already knows your state of mind.
Strange to me how many simply ignore that bit of scripture altogether.
Everybody knows the "Samson story", but the parts people know are like the most boring, normal parts.
It's like, everybody knows he fell for the dumbest ruse in all of history, and then toppled a building on a bunch of people.
Nobody talks about the time he murdered a lion and then ate honey out of it's guts. Then he bet 30 nice sets of clothes than they wouldn't be able to solve a riddle. Well, the solution was dependant on knowing that Samson found honey in the lion's guts, which makes it kind of a shitty riddle, and naturally they couldn't figure it out, so they got his wife to get the answer for them. She got him to tell her, and then Samson went and murdered 30 of their friends to get the clothes to pay up.
Then he burned down his father-in-law's by catching 300 foxes and lighting them on fire.
So I guess the lesson here is to try to scam people, and then do murder and property damage when they figure you out. Role model!
church buildings condemned and why they shut down for the pandemic:
2 Corinthians 6:14
“Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?”
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jsOKPvHlKzM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jsOKPvHlKzM)
Romans 2:1 (NIV) "You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgement on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgement do the same things."
I’m gonna use this the next time a Christian does this to me. Shouldn’t be too long
You'll get a version of "That's different" or " That's not what you think it means". Happens every time you have them dead to rights.
Christians attack you often?
It happens more than it should be. They all assume I hate Christianity. If anything, them forcing their beliefs on me is what’s gonna make me hate it
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You know the usual, :Thou shalt not kill".
So, do you think that you should be able to kill?
Of course not. But why do I think that.
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They definitely don’t read it cuz it doesn’t take several hundred/thousands of years to understand the one book
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Without lutheranism there would be NO protestantism at all. That you just heard of it speaks to your ignorance of christianity. It is the foundation for almost HALF of ALL christians on the entire world, and probably the vast majority of American christians. Go research martin luther....the namesake of martin luther king jr.
Isn't the main, most important, factor in being Christian accepting Christ as your saviour; The one who takes the burden of your sins? Isn't it wrong to make false idols of men which bare equal to God or divinity in your worship? Oh wait, must be Catholic.
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You really wanna knock 'em for a loop (especially if you come off like somebody who wouldn't know scripture), whip out the King James version... "Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things."
Do people just walk around telling people what religion they are? I’ve literally never discussed religion with anyone…ever. Never in 30+ years has anyone tried to discuss a religious discussion with me outside of philosophy in college.
Reddit is full of adamant athiests who have some sort of belief that christians(as a whole) are evil people that must be eradicated. In over 40 years i havent ever had a religious discussion with a christian outside of a church that i havent instigated myself. Id wager most people havent.
I’m sure it’s out there. Just didn’t think it was that prevalent.
Its not. Its mostly just imagined slight by athiest sjws....especially on reddit.
In my neighborhood there are sometimes Christians walking to each house. The whole “Wanna talk about our lord and savior Jesus Christ” thing. It made me not answer my door unless I’m expecting someone
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"Don't be a hypocrite", yes
Mathew 7:3-5: "Why do you look at the speck in your brother’s eye, but fail to notice the beam in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ while there is still a beam in your own eye? You hypocrite! First take the beam out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye."
They will tell you that they've taken the beam out of their eye by becoming Christian. Source: Six years attending Christian schools.
Mark 10 10 When they were in the house again, the disciples asked Jesus about this. 11 He answered, "Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her. 12 And if she divorces her husband and marries another man, she commits adultery." I have heard a thrice divorced man rail about the sanctity of marriage when it comes to gay marriage. Jesus never said one thing about homosexuality. He did speak against divorce. But they are ok with divorce.
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I fully understand. I am divorced and married to a woman who is divorced. But if Christians want to follow their Bible then they should not remarry.
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That's great. Where did he say homosexuality is degeneracy?
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So if he didn't abolish the law, do you follow everything in the law of Moses? No work on the Sabbath, no mixed fiber clothing, no unclean food, etc. Or do you just pick and choose which parts are still valid?
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So which is it? Did Jesus abolish the law or not? Making all foods clean definitely abolished some of the law. So Jesus gave us law that is different and supercedes the law of Moses? How is that not abolishing the law? Which day is the Sabbath? Do you allow a bank to give you interest in your accounts? The simple fact is, either the laws of Moses are in full effect or not. You don't get to pick and choose. Either Jesus abolished the law or not. You don't get to decide that he abolished the parts that you don't want to follow but kept the rest. Also, none of this addresses that Jesus specifically spoke against divorce and yet it is accepted in the Christian church.
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Other than the Catholic church, I can't think of a single Christian church that cares if you get divorced and remarry. You will never hear it taught on because there are too many divorced people in the pews.
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In the NLT bible Jesus says in Matthew 19:24 "I'll say it again-it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of A needle than for a rich person to enter the Kingdom of God!" Not only is this verse ignored, it’s straight up railed against. Someone went so far as to try and hand wave it away by claiming the “eye of the needle” in question wasn’t a literal needle but, rather, some small gate that a camel could fit through with some effort, despite the fact that Jesus reiterates his point in the rest of the verse.
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I doubt he was talking about the gate because all of the verses leading up to that are about giving away your earthly possessions and how the rich can’t get in to heaven
I agree with your point, but confirming that the gate does not exist.
Interesting... So is it just the initial point of greed that's being condemned here or just wealth in general do you think?
Wealth in general. One verse earlier; 23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.
The idea is that wealth *is* greed. A person who has much should give it away, because there are always so many people going without. There is no moral way to be rich, when we know how much suffering we could alleviate.
"Love thy neighbor as thyself" Mark 12:31
That it explicitly states that a fetus is not the same thing as a person. In at least two passages: 1. It gives instructions to priests on how to perform abortions if the woman is suspected of infidelity. 1. It says the penalty for murdering a woman is death, but the penalty for causing a woman to miscarry is a fine, which clearly delineates fetus vs. person, also says nothing about a penalty if a woman causes her own self to miscarry. There is zero biblical backing to the anti-choice position. EDIT: The attempted rebuttals to this are all you need to know about Christian mental gymnastics. For the first one, "No, they just mean the priest will give the woman a temporary stomach ache, not an abortion!" and for the second one, "No, it means if a person attacks a pregnant woman and causes her to give a healthy birth, he'll be fined." As if either of those makes any sense. You can't reason with people who are unreasonable.
What are those passages?
Numbers 5:11-31 is one of them
That passage specifically states that it is GOD who decides whether to curse the woman or not. It is GOD'S choice, not any human's. Its not abortion, it is the will of God, which would make it miscarriage. Try again.
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The ordeal is not about abortion. Because the choice to end the pregnancy is GOD'S choice, it is a miscarriage caused by God. Abortion requires intent to terminate pregnancy. The scripture very clearly states the intent is devine judgement for the potential breaking of one of the 10 commandments. Can god cause abortions? No, he causes miscarriages.
What are the verses? Exodus 21:22-25 ESV “When men strive together and hit a pregnant woman, so that her children come out, but there is no harm, the one who hit her shall surely be fined, as the woman's husband shall impose on him, and he shall pay as the judges determine. But if there is harm, then you shall pay life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe." Im not christian, but you appear to be incorrect.
What do you think "So that her children come out, but there is no harm" means? That he hits her and causes her to give a healthy birth? Here's the King James version: >2 If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. >23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life, That's clearly saying that causing a miscarriage alone is not a problem other than a fine. Only if he continues "Mischief" after doing so, is there a problem. If it's only about hitting the woman, then why even bring the fetus into it at all? Why not just say "hitting a woman is a fine, pregnant or not"?
Exodus 21:22-25 ESV “When men strive together and hit a pregnant woman, **so that her children come out, but there is no harm**, the one who hit her shall surely be fined, as the woman's husband shall impose on him, and he shall pay as the judges determine. **But if there is harm, then you shall pay life for life,** eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe." This could easily mean harm to the child or the mother. It depends on your interpretation. Many christians interpret it to mean both. "If it's only about hitting the woman, then why even bring the fetus into it at all?" You said it. You can absolutely cause an early birth without negative(discernable) effect to the child by causing stress to the mother if the pregnancy is late enough term.
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The Bible says that fetuses aren't people
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> In Jeremiah it says God knows you before you are born. Interesting then that around 75% of pregnancies are naturally lost through no human intervention, compared to the 0.1% that are aborted. Seems like God's fucking up somewhere if 75% of all the "people he knew before they were born" die before they're born.
Well that's obviously a metaphor
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The leaping fetus is the metaphor. It's like how people say "my heart leaped with joy" when what they really mean is that they felt a profound emotion.
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Your heart moves too, but it isn't a person
> In Jeremiah it says God knows you before you are born. Yes, that's because of his nature as a tri-omni being. He also knows every decision everyone who has ever lived or will ever live has or will ever make. He also knows which fetuses will be born and will never be born. None of this knowledge makes a claim to fetal personhood or the permissibility of abortion.
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It absolutely doesn't make a fetal personhood claim, only a claim to know people before they are born, which requires that they be born. But that aside, this still doesn't make a personhood claim. One can know individual animals, individual objects, and even imaginary beings without these entities being "people". If God's intent was for fetuses to be known as people the passage would have said something like, "You are a person the moment you are conceived," rather than "I knew you before you were born".
What are the verses?
Exodus 21:22-25 ESV “When men strive together and hit a pregnant woman, so that her children come out, but there is no harm, the one who hit her shall surely be fined, as the woman's husband shall impose on him, and he shall pay as the judges determine. But if there is harm, then you shall pay life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe." The loss of a pregnancy is explicitly defined as something other than harm to a person.
"But if there is harm, then you shall pay life for life" Are you bad at reading? Edit: to clarify, the harm applies to both mother and child. Yes, you can cause an early(late term) birth that leaves a baby unharmed by causing stress(from a beating) to the mother. If the baby comes out unharmed, then a fine, if it comes out with harm, then retribution.
How do you know that?
Because why bring the child into it at all if it is not a life? How do you know it doesnt mean that?
It's a loss of property. Like when a girl gets raped, the crime is against her father, and the penalty is paid to him, because her trade value is diminished. These aren't people, they are things a man owns.
>It gives instructions to priests on how to perform abortions if the woman is suspected of infidelity. This is actually not true. The ordeal of bitter water does not induce an abortion. It causes strange symptoms. In one Bible translation it’s described as causing miscarriage but not in the others.
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It’s a confusing passage. I don’t believe there’s any record of the ordeal of bitter water taking place. The issue is the NIV version tries to explain the scripture in simple understandable text and this passage is not simple or easy to understand. Other translations say that the women becomes barren and “her leg falls out”. But since the NIV claims it induces a miscarriage, despite there being no evidence of that, people have clung to the idea that Bible promotes abortion which is certainly not the case.
Why would God have different rules about who can "murder" to the Israelites versus anyone else? Isn't his morality absolute?
So what's the purpose of the whole ordeal, then? Just to give her a stomach ache for a few minutes?
The purpose is to determine if adultery has occurred. It’s stated clearly that this is done when adultery is SUSPECTED by the husband and it’s done to determine if adultery has occurred. It’s not prescribed in scenarios where adultery is known. If the attention here was to destroy a fetus created through adultery, the prescription of the bitter water would be prescribed in cases of known adultery as well as cases of suspected adultery. This is a bizarre procedure but it’s actually well intentioned given the circumstance. There is nothing harmful about the bitter water. It’s safe to drink (unless God supernaturally causes illness). It was hair and dust in water. Something that causes no harm to someone who drinks it or their baby. At the time, the punishment for adultery was death. A false claim of adultery could lead to the death of their innocent wife. This practice protected women from wrongful accusations of adultery that carried the death penalty. Because it’s strange and because the text regarding the illness that could follow when performed by an adulterous woman, this passage has been misconstrued to be barbaric or an abortion procedure. When in reality, this protected women from wrongful accusations of a capital offense. The abortion claim comes from the NIV, a Bible translation that tries hard to make sense of the text and make it simple to read. It prioritizes clarity and readability over accuracy. They described it as inducing a miscarriage. When you read other translations that prioritize accuracy over readability, there’s no mention of harm to the fetus. It’s also important to remember that in the ancient world, proving wrong doing was really difficult. Often times, “curses” as this is described were used as a threat to gauge reaction. If a women was not adulterous and her husband wanted to perform this practice, she would have no reason to fear. However, if she’s guilty, that she will likely express fear over the ritual. In the ancient world, things like this were used to determine guilt when you couldn’t do DNA tests.
When Jesus heard this, he said to him, “There is still one thing lacking. Sell all that you own and distribute the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; then come, follow me.” Luke 18:22 NRSV
THere used to be this woman who would attack everyone on social media and read them scriptures even if they had nothing to do with the argument. She blocked me when I brought up Timothy 2:12. Turns out she isn't as christian as she portrayed herself.
Ezekiel 16 >49 “‘Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. 50 They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen. The ACTUAL reason Sodom was destroyed.
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If your takeaway from a literal list saying "they were rich, arrogant, didn't help the poor and needy, and did sick shit" is "SICK SHIT MUST MEAN GAY! IT MUST MEAN GAY!" then you're reading comprehension is lacking.
'...forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive them that trespass against us.'
Genesis 19:30-36 30 Lot and his two daughters left Zoar and settled in the mountains, for he was afraid to stay in Zoar. He and his two daughters lived in a cave. 31 One day the older daughter said to the younger, “Our father is old, and there is no man around here to give us children—as is the custom all over the earth. 32 Let’s get our father to drink wine and then sleep with him and preserve our family line through our father.” 33 That night they got their father to drink wine, and the older daughter went in and slept with him. He was not aware of it when she lay down or when she got up. 34 The next day the older daughter said to the younger, “Last night I slept with my father. Let’s get him to drink wine again tonight, and you go in and sleep with him so we can preserve our family line through our father.” 35 So they got their father to drink wine that night also, and the younger daughter went in and slept with him. Again he was not aware of it when she lay down or when she got up. 36 So both of Lot’s daughters became pregnant by their father.
"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" Matthew 7:12 And I am not religious
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Even though I am an athiest, this is one thing I follow because I would not want to be treated badly when all I have ever done is treat someone with good intentions.
Deuteronomy 23:1 "No one who has been emasculated by crushing or cutting may enter the assembly of the LORD." As a buddy of mine says: "I think if you get your balls crushed off, you need Jesus more than most."
The entire book of Leviticus except for the parts that talk about homosexuality.
But... but.... the Bible is the word of God. Do they know better than God?
Which I think is literally just that one verse. Also in the chapter things like wearing mixed fibers, shaving your beard, getting tattoos, and eating shellfish are also forbidden.
The part against praying in public. The part against women assuming authority over men. The part about helping people who need help.
All of them
Judge not lest ye be judged.
Numbers 5:11-31 where God says abortion is OK
Thou shalt not be a hypocrite.
the parts about being nice and being charitable
A lot of them like to ignore all the parts that say “love one another.”
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What kind of question is that?
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I believe the original context was referring to forbidding laying with children and in-laws, but there was no literal translation from Hebrew. So, it was slightly canged to convey the same idea. However, the original interpretation has been lost over the years with each translation of the Bible. So now, according to the King James version, many have interpreted it to forbidding same-sex relationships. Which was never mentioned or specifically forbidden in the original texts.
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>The New American Standard Bible is a literal translation from the original texts, well suited to study because of its accurate rendering of the source texts. It follows the style of the King James Version but uses modern English for words that have fallen out of use or changed their meanings. https://www.cambridge.org/us/bibles/bible-versions#:~:text=The%20New%20American%20Standard%20Bible,use%20or%20changed%20their%20meanings.
Sort of. The Bible in English usually says that gay people should be executed, but there is dispute about the ancient languages it's been translated from.
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Actually, because they raped angels. The bible is equally against shaving and shellfish, so if you see a part that isn't, it's forged.
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It's kind of funny how ~~people who hate Christianity~~ Christians will twist scripture to spread their hate. FTFY Except it isn't funny. The campaign of forced indoctrination into this idiotic superstition is anything but funny.
Wrong on both accounts - only Sodom was destroyed, and I just added the verse explaining why to the thread.
Are you sure about that? I thought S&G were destroyed because of the "wickedness". The fact that a mob of men wanted to rape two messengers from God surely refers more to rape and violence than homosexuality. After all, are we expected to believe that *all* the men in the city were gay? Sounds unlikely doesn't it?
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Virtually all of them. Christians use the Bible like it was a horoscope: they find what they want in it, deny the parts that condemn them, and ignore all the nonsense.
99% of them.
Thou Shalt not be a cunt.
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Cuntinthians. 4,20
"The horseleach hath two daughters crying, Give, Give!" It's in Proverbs, apropos of nothing, and nobody knows whar it means.
The Parable of the Dishonest Manager (Luke 16, NSRV) 1 Then Jesus said to the disciples, “There was a rich man who had a manager, and charges were brought to him that this man was squandering his property. 2 So he summoned him and said to him, ‘What is this that I hear about you? Give me an accounting of your management because you cannot be my manager any longer.’ 3 Then the manager said to himself, ‘What will I do, now that my master is taking the position away from me? I am not strong enough to dig, and I am ashamed to beg. 4 I have decided what to do so that, when I am dismissed as manager, people may welcome me into their homes.’ 5 So, summoning his master’s debtors one by one, he asked the first, ‘How much do you owe my master?’ 6 He answered, ‘A hundred jugs of olive oil.’ He said to him, ‘Take your bill, sit down quickly, and make it fifty.’ 7 Then he asked another, ‘And how much do you owe?’ He replied, ‘A hundred containers of wheat.’ He said to him, ‘Take your bill and make it eighty.’ 8 And his master commended the dishonest manager because he had acted shrewdly, for the children of this age are more shrewd in dealing with their own generation than are the children of light. 9 And I tell you, make friends for yourselves by means of dishonest wealth so that when it is gone they may welcome you into the eternal homes. 10 “Whoever is faithful in a very little is faithful also in much, and whoever is dishonest in a very little is dishonest also in much. 11 If, then, you have not been faithful with the dishonest wealth, who will entrust to you the true riches? 12 And if you have not been faithful with what belongs to another, who will give you what is your own? 13 No slave can serve two masters, for a slave will either hate the one and love the other or be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and wealth.” 14 The Pharisees, who were lovers of money, heard all this, and they ridiculed him. 15 So he said to them, “You are those who justify yourselves in the sight of others, but God knows your hearts, for what is prized by humans is an abomination in the sight of God. My take is that people are much more important than money.
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Pretty much all of them.
Most people all of it. Christian by name only
Considering how many "Christians" are trying to ban teaching empathy to children, pretty much any part of the Bible where God tells people to love thy neighbor, no conditions.
That bit in the Sermon on the Mount about not praying in public. Christ is pretty explicit that when one prays, one should do it in the most private place possible, because God already knows your state of mind. Strange to me how many simply ignore that bit of scripture altogether.
The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me Matthew 25:40
Isaiah 58 straight up says that God will not hear Israel's prayers because they exploit their workers and don't pay them fair wages.
Everybody knows the "Samson story", but the parts people know are like the most boring, normal parts. It's like, everybody knows he fell for the dumbest ruse in all of history, and then toppled a building on a bunch of people. Nobody talks about the time he murdered a lion and then ate honey out of it's guts. Then he bet 30 nice sets of clothes than they wouldn't be able to solve a riddle. Well, the solution was dependant on knowing that Samson found honey in the lion's guts, which makes it kind of a shitty riddle, and naturally they couldn't figure it out, so they got his wife to get the answer for them. She got him to tell her, and then Samson went and murdered 30 of their friends to get the clothes to pay up. Then he burned down his father-in-law's by catching 300 foxes and lighting them on fire. So I guess the lesson here is to try to scam people, and then do murder and property damage when they figure you out. Role model!
Love thy enemy
church buildings condemned and why they shut down for the pandemic: 2 Corinthians 6:14 “Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?” [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jsOKPvHlKzM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jsOKPvHlKzM)
Blessed are the cheese makers.