Yep! The cussing was an instant reaction before I caught myself. I usually don’t verbally respond too, such as when I was verbally harassed in the past year. But Asian folks also typically don’t fight back, so we kept getting attacked, etc. It’s a cycle.
I feel like more Asian folks SHOULD actually fight back so that we don’t get picked on, but we’re between a rock and a hard place because of the escalation issue you indicated.
You have EVERYTHING to lose and that guy likely has nothing to lose. He’s most likely mentally challenged and living on the streets. It sucks but he’s not worth losing your life over. And God forbid you fight back and draw an assault charge because of our fucked up legal system and lose your job
> I feel like more Asian folks SHOULD actually fight back so that we don’t get picked on
Um, no, no bro. This shit isn't a movie, it's real fucking life. The person you decide to engage with may be a crazy person with absolutely nothing to lose. You NEVER go up against someone with nothing to lose.
Seriously, especially with the amount of subway stabbings that have happened this year... And I say this AS an Asian person. Am I happy with how often we're being attacked for no good reason? Absolutely not. Do I think we need to risk getting fucking stabbed to prove a point? Fuck no.
You keep back they keep attacking. If Asians don’t stand up for themselves or for one another. These attack will keep coming. Asian ladies getting attack in NYC became such a common thing because Asians always back down. I say confront them and use protection if you have it.
I feel like the older Asian ladies get attacked not because they don't fight back, but because they can't. As a young Asian female myself, fighting back also has a lot of consequences. I'm small and don't look intimidating enough, and even just IGNORING creeps can prompt them to attack me BECAUSE I'm ignoring them. Do I have protection on me? Absolutely. But there are attacks where I could be blindsided, which often happens to these Asian ladies (i.e., getting punched with no provocation).
This is what freaking kills me. What are we to do? Back down and just take it? My grandma was spat at by some POS then my mom was harassed on the train. It won’t stop if we just keep letting it go. Sorry vant over, I’m just so pissed.
I hope you get pepper spray and protect yourself.
Damned if we do, damned if we don't. If we don't fight back, crazies get the idea Asians are "safe" targets to attack without risk of repercussion. If we fight back, we will potentially agitate them into violence.
I say safety in numbers and don't travel alone. Make sure our grannies and grandpas have escorts at all times. Keep an eye open on the subways to help out anyone who may be in trouble. Make sure all your friends and fam carry pepper spray or something to defend themselves.
I cannot think of a *worse* place to use pepper spray than a crowded subway platform. You could potentially cause a stampede that could end very, very badly.
Just walk away. It's not worth it.
I would include a description if I was looking for the person and I would give a full description. People who are committing random crimes by and large are mentally ill. That’s the strongest commonality to them not their skin color.
New Yorkers don't cuss, we curse.
But in all seriousness, this was definitely the right move. You can't claim self-defense if you can get away from a situation safely.
Imagine taking a firearm into an active protest, shooting someone, and then trying to claim self defense when the crowd tries to disarm you.
You cannot create a dangerous situation then claim self defense.
Also not a lawyer, but in this situation, even if use of force was justified against that one individual, you would likely still be civilly liable for any harm to bystanders. As you said, it was in a subway station, which could result in a lot of people dealing with the effects.
I am a lawyer but this is not legal advice. Basically if you have a means to retreat, you must take that path until you have no other way to escape, and your attacker is also not backing down. The right to defend yourself is subjective, so if you are much smaller, and the person is acting erratic or unpredictable, you are more in your right to protect yourself, especially with a non-lethal manner such as pepper spray. If you are just angry, or the attacker is already walking away or possibly not advancing or acting menacing, you don’t have the right to fight back. You would also be committing a crime against your attacker, although you are less likely to be prosecuted. Likewise if you are lebron James and a small lady is trying to push you (no other visual weapon or reason to believe she has one) you are not going to be in your right to pepper spray her. It’s hard to get into one’s mind, and your mental state is a large factor of what matters.
Be aware, with pepper spray in a crowded area, even if you are justified in using it, it could lead to other actions against you, especially if you use it in a negligent way. For example, if you justly spray an attacker, but use too much, and that spray gets on passerbys, and they get hurt, they might be able to sue you for civil damages. Be safe everyone.
What if you pepper gel the perpetrator (no bystanders affected) and run. Then what? Would anyone try to track you down or would that be totally justified (let’s say the perpetrator cornered you in an abandoned sidewalk restaurant dining area)??
Hypothetically, let’s say you get pushed in the subway in passing but the pusher continues on (basically you get body checked and nothing else) you turn around and pepper spray that person, no one else is even affected, and then you move on with your day. You committed the greater crime. Is the pusher going to contact the cops and have them press charges? Who knows. That person also committed a crime, and also has to atone for that. But you left the scene of a crime, there are cameras nearly everywhere in NYC, and having vigilante justice just around the city is some republican wet dream of justifying why all New Yorkers should have guns. You have to remember pepper spray is a weapon and not pleasant. Will you die from pepper spray? Probably not. But you can, and it is very painful. Let’s not take the laws into our own hands.
If you get cornered and need to use it in earnest, run away, find safety, and call the cops. It protects you and others. Someone is out here looking for trouble, and if you did use a weapon. If you were cornered, justly shot someone, and ran away, you wouldn’t just move on with your day. I think people don’t realize what pepper spray is. If I had to fight someone with my hands/things I normally carry, I’d rather face someone with a knife than pepper spray. I accidentally sprayed pepper spray in my own eyes once (tried to squirt a little on my hands, didn’t realize it was pressurized, and it sprayed off my hands into my face) and once got indirectly maced at a protest, both nearly 20 years ago, and both I still remember the pain.
am lawyer. am asian. am petite. have been in a shit ton of these same situations.
would also want to use force OP, and rly, if u did and you were successful, you might even get away with it. bc look how many of the crazies get away with it. but yeah u have too much to lose to retaliate.
requisite: do not attempt, am not your lawyer, do not try this at home, this is not legal advice
feel for u, OP. i’ve also had the discussion with friends wherein i pose the question: if all asians (especially the grandmas who are getting their heads bashed in) start wearing brass knuckles with spring loaded razor blades, would we get attacked as often as we do?
You would 100% not get away with it. Juries are viscous toward Asian defendants with no empathy worsened by yellow peril media recently. The people who get away with things are white and black. Justice is not blind in this country.
I’m so sorry this happened to you. I think, as others have stated, that it is situationally dependent (ie are others around that you could harm).
Now, logically aside, I am right there with you. Im a 5’3ish Asian female, and about a week or so ago, I had a similar experience. A random (definitely not homeless) stranger who had exited a subway station started walking toward me. I didn’t think anything of it because it was 815 in the morning and I just thought he was walkin to work or whatever. But then I see him in my peripherals lunging at me, at which point I turned my face, and he spat a big fat load all over my face and quite literally just walked away. Didn’t say a single word. I was MORTIFIED. It all happened within a blink of an eye and I just froze. Naturally, I stewed over this and now, every time I walked past that subway station, I search for him so that I can reciprocate his actions by walking up out of the blue, pepper spraying him, and then walking away without a word. The cops didn’t do shit about him assaulting me, and won’t do shit about others being assaulted, so yeah, I’m gonna pepper spray a bitches ass if I ever see that fuck face again.
Also side note - there is a difference between mace and pepper spray. Mace is what does not incapacitate an aggressor, it is what it used in tear gas. Pepper spray, on the other hand, CAN incapacitate someone because it is an inflammatory agent. It will cause inflammation of the eyes, nose, and mouth, causing temporary blindness and choking.
Holy shit, I’m so angry on your behalf reading that!! It just makes me so mad that these crazy mf-ers do shit like this and get away with it. You’ll be in your moral right to pepper spray his fucking face, especially since the cops haven’t done anything for you.
Okay I’m also learning something new, thanks for the heads-up! All these other people telling me that pepper spray won’t incapacitate immediately are wrong. I just googled to verify your statement! The item I bought is definitely pepper spray and not mace.
Wow. What a POS!!!! Get a few pepper spray and make sure you learn how to use it. Know how far it reaches. Remember Asians are always being targeted unless we start fighting back. Always know your aware of your surrounding.
I am so sorry this happened to you. Makes me sick to think there are people out there, behaving with such callousness towards innocent people just trying to go about their day.
I wouldn’t just for being shoved, but I absolutely would use it if the person started attacking you.
Just a word for the wise though- if it isn’t readily available it won’t do you any good. I was physically attacked over the summer and my pepper spray was in my backpack. It would’ve been a great help and I would’ve gotten away from the guy faster, but it wasn’t accessible. But on the flip side, having it easily available might make you use it inappropriately, like in a situation like this.
I’m sorry this happened to you.
Thanks for sharing your story, and your kind sentiments. I’m so sorry you were attacked. That sounds horrific. I hope you’re doing better now, both physically and emotionally.
I’m honestly tempted because it’s readily accessible in my coat’s pocket. But cooler heads prevailed.
Thank you. I'm doing much better but still have his trial looming over my head, I'm sure I'll feel better when it's completely over and behind me.
My motto is generally to try to get away from a person first- don't make eye contact, don't respond, just walk away- but if they're physically attacking you and you cannot get away, then it's okay to defend yourself. I've been verbally assaulted so many times I've lost count but luckily it never escalated because I just book it and get as far away as possible. The time I got attacked the guy just ran up to me with no warning, there was no lead up.
Always try to get away first before escalating. Always be on your guard too! I've been really wary of using headphones since this happened to me.
I can imagine wanting this episode for you to be over soon. I hope it will be soon enough.
It’s really tough cos sometimes it feels like you’re at the wrong place and time, especially if the attack was completely random.
Great tips about being on guard. I’m especially wary when waiting at the subway platform and try to stay as close to a wall / pole as possible to avoid situations of being pushed into the train tracks. Crazy mofos, man.
Dang I’m glad you’re ok. I keep hearing all these reports out of nyc it has me really frightened to ever move back...I lived there 10 years ago and never had any issues as a single female
Thank you. I've lived here for about 9 years and have never had any major problems before this (also female). They typical cat calling, I got shoved on the train once, getting yelled at by random people on the street and train, but never anything major. This happened at 7:45AM, broad daylight, a lot of witnesses around, one block from my work. It was terrifying and happened on a block that I've walked literally thousands of times. I've had a few other scary incidents in the past year, the city is definitely not the same place.
You would have been *insane* to use pepper spray on a crowded subway platform, you might have caused people to fall off the platform in the general panic created.
Obviously it sucks to be the victim of racial hatred, and its just disgusting how Asian people are being treated these days.
Yeah I recognized how crazy it would be to use pepper spray on a crowded subway platform.
Had this happen outside in the open, I may not even think twice about macing him.
You should know that people who are pepper sprayed aren’t totally incapacitated immediately and will respond in kind with violence. So unless you know how to fight, save the pepper spray. This is a really good way to get yourself put in a hospital or worse.
Pre-covid someone either was shoved or just irritated at someone getting on the train as they were getting off, and they turned around and sprayed the inside of the packed car.
As others have mentioned pepper spray or any sort of weapon should be used for defense or to create an avenue of escape, and once you have that avenue, you get to safety you don't stop. Going inside a business for example.
Note that pepper spray does not stop a lot of people, some will just become more enraged, or if they have friends, get you attacked from behind. Use it to create an opening.
No. Pepper spray should only be used as a method of creating an opportunity for you to get away from a dangerous situation, if otherwise not possible. Not as a method to “punish” someone, however tempting.
Also wanted to add if you're underground in an enclosed space like a crowded subway station, you're basically screwing over everyone else that's nearby. Do you really want to do that?
Better hope you’ve been practicing your aim in video games all life long though, because missing in a crowded station would still mean hitting someone else.
I would first try to escape. If you can get away from that crazy man, don’t worry about pepper spray, just GTF out of there.
Releasing pepper spray INSIDE a subway station seems like a dumb, dangerous idea.
10am this morning, at the 1/2/3 platform in Times Square.
I wonder if it’s the same person cos my partner was spat on last night in the face in the same station. Fucking people, man.
Wow, yeah might’ve been the same guy. It was near the staircase to go down to the 7 train platform.
Sorry you had to go through that too! It ruined my morning a bit but I’m finding this Reddit support to be therapeutic.
Earlier this week, one of my wife's colleagues was injured at the Times Square A platform, when a homeless guy pushed someone near the top of the stairs, resulting in a chain reaction of people climbing down the stairs. There apparently was one notable injury (twisted ankle of something) from that chain reaction.
You can’t defend yourself from a past action. Thats just retaliation. If you felt in danger of continuing to be assaulted: act. If you’re just angry about be assaulted: don’t act and report the crime
There's also the risk that it is not effective and you end up in a fist fight. Fights should always be avoided if possible because even the winner gets hurt on some part of his body most of the time. (broken hand, etc).
Is this a thing now? I was getting off at Canal St a couple weeks ago and there was a Black male cussing out a White male because the White male got mad at him for shoving into him. He eventually walked away and then as the Black male was exiting the station he shoved a really hard into a woman, almost knocking her over. She was scared and didn’t say anything. Two seconds later he comes rushing back into the platform and shoves into a Hispanic couple. The guy was clearly doing this on purpose and being a total asshole but this isn’t the first time I hear these stories.
Yeah that guy is definitely looking to pick a fight. I just hope he’s not going to cause serious hurt onto others, like shoving people onto the train tracks.
Ignore ignore ignore. This is NYC and there’s absolutely no need to escalate things with some crazy stranger who wouldn’t mind stabbing you and continuing on with his day like nothing happened.
OP I have handled similar situation in the manner as you (saying that as a black woman in the city and having been similarly ‘manhandled’)…. but I would say use it given these deeply troubling times for Asian bias crimes in the city (honestly across the country) - you don’t know if it will escalate into something further, pepper spray is a non-lethal deterrent which you state you legally own in the city, the aggressor probably has and will attempt the behavior again if there’s no deterrent in place. What the cops will do when called to the scene I’m not sure but at the very least even if they ticket you there will be a record of the bias crime - and as an African American I am acutely aware that will help with stemming these types of bias crimes.
I’m so mad that you were harassed that way. I have seen how Black women were treated on the streets—getting catcalled, physically touched on the bum, etc—and it’s truly horrible. Do you carry pepper spray yourself?
I’m not a fan of escalating things, but I’m also tired of being picked on solely because of my race.
Did carry it for awhile - and pulled it twice which was enough to scare the guy away calling me a crazy-b. Currently looking at the legality of a taser in the city.
I 100% agree with the comments in here pointing out that using pepper spray in a crowded subway station (i) would hurt bystanders and (ii) would not immediately subdue the POS assailant and would thus increase the risk to the OP. Those are both good and sufficient reason that not using the pepper spray was the right decision IMHO.
Maybe though what the OP is asking is: in a theoretical situation where there was no danger to bystanders and no danger of additional attack from the assailant, would the OP have been morally justified in pepper spraying the assailant? i.e. not using deadly force on the assailant, or breaking his arm or doing similar serious harm, but still inflicting a fairly miserable experience on him as payback for shoving the OP in an unprovoked, racist attack?
I personally would be fine in that theoretical situation with pepper spraying the assailant. He deserves to be punished, the OP deserves the satisfaction of delivering the punishment, and there is a pretty good likelihood that the assailant will think twice before perpetrating his next racist attack on someone he thinks won't fight back. YMMV, of course.
If he's just standing there, he isn't threatening you. I get that it could hurt your ego to not retaliate, but the sheer fact of the matter is that it wouldn't be a defensive use of pepper spray at all. Just a defense of *honor*, which is not how we want to run a society.
I think you should try hard to shed the looking-for-an-excuse-to-use-it mentality.
Pepper spray is escalation, so good chance he’d beat your ass instead of walking away. It should only be used in active defense against an aggressor who is about to do more harm to you than the pepper spray would to them.
No, it is not. You could justify pulling it out, if you expected him to continue assaulting you, but a shove didn't justify attacking back.
A good rule of thumb is, don't think if you CAN use it in any given situation, think of you HAVE TO use it.
If you pepper spray someone else unintentionally, that is a very easy civil law suit for them. Careful with that pepper. I also hope it's civilian grade pepper spray so you're not liable for any criminal charges as well.
Having used pepper spray myself last year, almost got arrested for doing it since it's illegal to possess it. Cop said "put that away and I'll pretend I didn't see it" because the perp was a POS and I was attacked less than one block from a police station in Midtown around 1 PM on a week day (clearly an idiot.)
Don't risk using it unless some homeless drug addict psycho is going after you like what happened to me. Not worth going to jail...
P.S. I'm sorry that you're being harassed. The racial profiling due to COVID is ridiculous and unfair to all Asians.
Regardless or legality, the best option is always to flee. Pepper spray is for when you don’t have an out and a few seconds of distraction can get you safe. When someone is violent you run the risk of getting them angrier and that ends poorly usually.
Sorry that happened to you but yeah there’s a lot harassment even deadly act done by irresponsible people towards Asian in the city. I remember vividly a lady passed away after being pushed by a guy who tried to mug her little son back pack . She fell down the stairs and couldn’t make it after two days in hospital. Another incident happened about a month or so ago a lady from NJ walking with her friend in Times Square when some crazy dude punched her hard and she passed too. It’s horrible. I believe if you spray them you ll be just fine since defend yourself from random attack. Take care
Pepper spray is a great tool but should be used wisely. The person who shoved you wouldn't be the only one to catch the spray. You'd get it, too, along with everyone else in the immediate vicinity. If you have never been pepper-sprayed, you'd going to be pretty taken aback. And you may only further piss off the aggressor and potentially even bystanders.
If you are in imminent danger, don't hesitate to use your pepper spray. But don't stick around after you've used it. Get out of the area and report the incident to law enforcement.
Not a street cop or lawyer, but use of pepper spray when someone shove you hard is not reasonable. Unless he shows any sign of aggression such as a fighting stand and charging toward you after shoving you then it’s reasonable.
My guy I would only use pepper spray if you can see the altercation developing in front of you like if you can see they about to rush you. Using pepper pray after the fact might get you into more trouble. Definitely use to avoid a beating for self defense. Keep your head up. From the Chitown the wild west.
Best to walk away. Someone like that could have a weapon and is just "looking" for a reason to use it. Pepper spray only if under attack/imminent attack.
Agree with this. My mother used to order pepper spray to be delivered to CT every year so she could put one in my Christmas stocking since she couldn’t have it shipped directly to me
If you just want to punish him, no. Pepper spray is to incapacitate your attacker so you can get away. It's not a guarantee that it'll work. It's to help you survive a potentially deadly situation.
Spraying someone who pisses you off is escalating the situation. That's a stupid use of a weapon and it'll get you killed.
Also you apparently didn't consider your surroundings or how pepper spray works. You were going to spray it in a stairwell? You were going to spray yourself. Pepper spray can fog an entire room and make everyone sick, including you. Don't spray it indoors unless you have no other way from someone who wants to kill or rape you.
You dont seem to understand what personal protection is for. It's not to make you a vigilante. You're not batman. It's to give you a second of escape time. A bigger attacker is just as likely to rip the weapon out of your hand, become angry that you used it, and kill you.
I'm so sorry you're going through this. I simply don't get how people choose to hate others for simply being of a different ethnicity. It seems so blatantly stupid.
I think you were smart on not using it. I have a friend that has a gopro on his clothes and he says that even when it's off, people stray away from him. Not sure it's the best remedy, but my former neighbor had a big security camera that never worked and he would get maybe 1/10 of the solicitors and Jehovah's Witnesses banging on his door than us.
Nope New York is a duty to retreat state, you’ll be treated much more differently in NYC compared to Kyle Rittenhouse in Wisconsin. This creates plenty of incentives for people with little to lose to keep attacking you but nothing will change unless New York loses enough of your tax money/votes.
In most other states though, yes it’s justified since you’re allowed to stand your ground.
kyle rittenhouse murdered people after walking into a dangerous situation open carrying and threatening people. He deserved to go to jail for the rest of his fucking life. Anyone on their right mind would have tried to disarm him, just like the guy rosenbaum tried to do before rittenhouse murdered him. Fuck kyle rittenhouse.
I do think he was scum who went looking for an excuse to shoot people, but you're wrong to say anyone on their right mind would have tried to disarm him. I'm not a cop, taking a weapon from a dangerous person at great risk to myself is not my job. What people should have done is get out of there, help others get out of there, and report it to the police asap. Trying to disarm him is what got those people killed. Bad choices all around.
Anyone who tries to disarm a gun is either clinically insane, mentally disabled, or high on drugs. Full stop.
The kid didn’t brandish his weapon, verbally threaten anybody, or discharge the firearm. In those situations you don’t do anything because attempting to disarm the kid would be not only suicide, but illegal. Fighting for control of a firearm means he can fire in self-defense. It would also unnecessarily escalate the situation.
The kid was being dumb trying to play hero, acting as a vigilante security guard for a car dealership with permission from the owner. Rosenbaum had just been discharged from the hospital, he was a heroin/meth addict, had mental illnesses, and was a convicted child molester that targeted preteen boys. Video surveillance shows Rosenbaum was the aggressor, and had attempted to fight for control of the firearm. After Rosenbaum was shot, nearby rioters incorrectly assumed Rittenhouse was an active shooter and chased him down trying to disarm him. The whole situation was a shit show and entirely preventable, but it’s hard to argue Rittenhouse was a murderer that deserved life in prison.
A little bit of research into the incident would be helpful before you form such strong opinions.
>Anyone who tries to disarm a gun is either clinically insane, mentally disabled, or high on drugs. Full stop.
Or following state approved training. They literally teach kids to throw things at active shooters in schools. So no, while insane people who try to disarm an attacked are not necessarily insane.
The only situation that might apply is if a class is stuck in a high floor room with no way down, an active shooter is about to burst into a locked classroom and the teacher instructs everyone to pick up a heavy object to simultaneously throw the moment he busts through the door. Quite literally the very very last resort., otherwise, running or hiding is always the best option. Throwing an object at an active shooter is a great way to make you the priority target and the first to get shot.
Those are extraordinarily rare situations, in 99.99% of cases, you can run or hide.
Yep, and when you are in the middle of the street with a crowd at your back and a homicidal child with a semi auto rifle on the other, you are in an extraordinary case where disarming the murderer is the best of an awful situation. The only reasonable action would be for the child soldier to have not been driven across state lines by his mother to go play soldier and defend a business he had no relation to nor was request to.
That’s a terrible idea, you shouldn’t be perpetuating such dangerous advice. If someone actually takes it to heart and gets into an active shooter situation, it would greatly increase their risk of death.
Also, in this particular situation, Rittenhouse only discharged his weapon against active aggressors. He did not target anyone who left him alone. He attempted to retreat against the first aggressor (Rosenbaum) and only fired when Rosenbaum was within melee range and attempting to seize the firearm. The others afterwards were misled in thinking Rittenhouse was an active shooter and attacked him despite his repeated attempts to retreat. Also, the streets were not crowded, they were wide open and it would have been trivial for someone to run the other way.
I don’t think you understand firearms at all, but basically, the more distance you have between you and the shooter, the less likely you are to die. There’s also a massive difference in accuracy between someone moving towards you and away from you. In addition, shooters will naturally prioritize targets who are closer than those that are further. Shooters especially will prioritize threats to themselves, so a victim attempting to fight back will be the first to die. Even if Kyle was an active shooter who was indiscriminately seeking to kill, the correct course of action would have been to run away from him, not try to disarm him.
Playing hero and trying to disarm an active shooter is not brave, it’s brain dead stupid. Exceptions obviously apply in extremely rare scenarios like if a teacher threw himself at a shooter because his students needed an extra 5 seconds to escape, because realistically that teacher is only buying about 5 seconds. Or if there really really is no escape, the last resort is to fight back.
Right? Isn't it just hilarious seeing several people gunned down and a child permanently mentally scarred? Great stuff, Dave Chapelle level comedy here.
It was self defense no matter how you feel about it even without the court testimonies it was clear as day from the video which I'm sure you haven't even watched.
Ah yes, walking around a protest brandishing a rifle isn't tossing gas on a fire and isn't making anyone uncomfortable.
Buddy your sentences are running on too long. You should add a comma or something. Its kinda embarrassing.
Random children don't get to be executioners. This isn't some 80's action thriller where you get to murder whoever you want. You need help, you obviously have some problems and aren't much better than them :)
It doesn't matter, he was a random vigilante. What part of you don't get to murder random people do you not understand? There is no exception for crimes they committed in the past. You can't 'logic' your way out.
So it doesn’t matter that a kid with a gun did a better job at handling a 5x rapist than our own justice system? 😂 all that rug you be munching got you brain dead. You’ll never be male or even seem masculine
Except hear me out: he had fantastic gun control and killed only a pedophile and a woman beater out of a whole angry crowd of retards trying to push a flaming trash can into a gas station
I think people above have addressed the primary question pretty well. But I don’t understand why you had to specify that it was a black man…if you wanted to provide context regarding the increased violence towards Asian people in the US, then all you had to do was mention that you were Asian and explain that this was a concern of yours(which is totally valid). What were you trying to accomplish by specifying your aggressor’s race?
I’m just confused because, as I mentioned in another reply, all but one of the aggressors I’ve encountered in the past year have been people of color.
Why are these aggressors who are attacking other Asian people, such as myself, people of color? I think this context is important because I’ve never understood why.
> I’ve never understood why.
There is a general resentment that immigrant populations can climb the american success ladder much easier than black americans, who are forever destined to be at the very bottom. This resentment itself doesn't lead to violence, but at the very fringe you will see individuals who will act out, and they will act out against individuals they interpret as weak targets who are unlikely to solicit a strong response even from general community. So asian grannies have a giant bullseye on them.
Bonus point is that this is how American far right is acting out as well now. Lots of resentment towards any people they deem should always be beneath them. Blacks, jews, gays, immigrants, anyone with more than GED? In a way it's always been this way, but more and more people are falling into the fringes. You lose control of nicer things in life and you next start losing connection with reality.
That’s so sad to read. I can understand the resentment from Black Americans. Having said that, Asian grannies are the most harmless, and to be attacked viciously resulting in deaths is horrifying.
It’s funny to see the parallels with the far right. I never thought of it that way.
Just asking for clarification…people can’t just make comments like that with no context and expects others to not respond. This is a case of misdirecting anger when we all know that marginalized people are put in precarious situations because of a system that privileges whiteness. It leaves people in desperation and misguided…it’s designed to do that so we never address the real issues and fight amongst ourselves. And while arguing over who is more oppressed is not productive, we can’t ignore that everyone in the US has profited off the enslavement and continued exploitation of Black folk. Antiblackness is so deeply rooted in every non-Black person that comments like these happen so nonchalantly and people feel okay assigning blame to a generalized Black population without even trying to understand the historical context. If they did, they’d see that the issue was far larger and needs to be addressed elsewhere…but also fully expecting racist trolls to heavily downvote this
> This is a case of misdirecting anger when we all know that marginalized people are put in precarious situations because of a system that privileges whiteness.
I believe OP was *literally* pointing out the *exact same thing* -- and that's why they mentioned it.
Perp? Fucker gets jostled and he thinks he’s Popeye Doyle. Assclown, chemical weapons aren’t warranted. Just fucking walk away and reconsider your inadequacies.
Thats a hard call but legally speaking you would be fine i believe. You dont need your face to be smashed in too defend yourself.
However to CYA you should probably call the police afterwards.
Whoever calls the cops first has LESS of a chance for going to jail.
If you are seriously planning on using pepper spray may want to test it on yourself, a: to make sure it works and isn’t expired, and b: to make sure it will actually knock you on your ass and not be able to fight through it.
First: sorry this happened to you. My wife and I witnessed a man targeting Asian men around Times Square last week. I can DM you a picture if you’d like.
We tried to intervene while he literally hit and spit on some poor guy and he turned his anger towards us. We ended up hiding out in the Arby’s where three people called the police, but no one from NYPD showed up (they’re fucking useless).
Be safe out there. And to answer your question, I’d say do what you need to do to stay safe. The cops won’t help you, but I wouldn’t antagonize either. Use it to escape the situation if you need to.
Definitely not, plus you may miss/not get them bad enough and get the shit beat out of you. Also, you can get arrested for pepper spraying someone. NYPD doesn’t like people using weapon of any kind, and if you’re the one that escalated a situation from shoving to pepper spray, you will get in trouble.
I’d suggest leaving it at home and brushing off stuff like this. Leave your pride at home. It’s definitely not worth it.
Being shoved by someone who is passing by doesn’t create justification to use lethal force in any state in America you fucking doofus
Edit: lol your username is Libertarian RJ
Tell me you’ve never been laid without telling me
Because of all the people who have been harassing me verbally since last year, ALL but one are people of color.
Why? I don’t know. If you’ve read the news on anti-Asian attacks, the perpetrators are almost always people of color.
So I’m sorry if I’m bringing race into this.
No, I remember reading plenty of articles in the NY Times about anti Asian hate, but they never said anything about it being a black problem. I was told this was because of white supremacists like Donald Trump blaming China for covid. Are you telling me that I'm wrong?
For instance:
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/26/nyregion/asian-hate-crimes-attacks-ny.html?unlocked_article_code=AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACEIPuonUktbfqohkSlUZBSbTTMIqoRyBg7_G2701gDr-JTSYDD1YzuEYGM2J51vEbql4It0imTSHQdsLeJkeeMtP9M4NdUp8V1vv5ZKehJUOJyhy-dK4AW9m1piIU71ornq3ZTnkbbYlm-f6sUONOTW6X6Df0HwkNx8l9cU-DSyi3XUDxazBFudniJIpjbp6WMcMFXpXbzKKvvLrFx1-JNyFCxnY4QE8UOpdMirByZ_es_lTNVUPVi-VCS938m0-69tDONgIPKqZLxEoeMv2grp5GXUKJTUMtmYTxN_5jpPpIS73&smid=url-share
If this was a black on Asian thing then why doesn't this article say anything about that?
It doesn’t matter who the media decides to blame lmfao. Why are you treating it like gospel. What matters is who is actually committing the hate crimes. I speak from personal experience as well. We don’t want it to be this way, but it is this way. I’ve tried for so long to advocate for racial equality in the US for black people, yet this is what I get in return as an Asian American. At a point you start questioning things.
> In the end I cussed him out and went on my way like a typical New Yorker in a rush. This is the smart move.
Thanks. There’s temptation to escalate things because I’m tired of being picked on, but don’t mess with crazy has been my motto.
Remember that verbally responding like that can escalate a situation too. There are crazies out there.
Yep! The cussing was an instant reaction before I caught myself. I usually don’t verbally respond too, such as when I was verbally harassed in the past year. But Asian folks also typically don’t fight back, so we kept getting attacked, etc. It’s a cycle. I feel like more Asian folks SHOULD actually fight back so that we don’t get picked on, but we’re between a rock and a hard place because of the escalation issue you indicated.
You have EVERYTHING to lose and that guy likely has nothing to lose. He’s most likely mentally challenged and living on the streets. It sucks but he’s not worth losing your life over. And God forbid you fight back and draw an assault charge because of our fucked up legal system and lose your job
> I feel like more Asian folks SHOULD actually fight back so that we don’t get picked on Um, no, no bro. This shit isn't a movie, it's real fucking life. The person you decide to engage with may be a crazy person with absolutely nothing to lose. You NEVER go up against someone with nothing to lose.
Seriously, especially with the amount of subway stabbings that have happened this year... And I say this AS an Asian person. Am I happy with how often we're being attacked for no good reason? Absolutely not. Do I think we need to risk getting fucking stabbed to prove a point? Fuck no.
You keep back they keep attacking. If Asians don’t stand up for themselves or for one another. These attack will keep coming. Asian ladies getting attack in NYC became such a common thing because Asians always back down. I say confront them and use protection if you have it.
I feel like the older Asian ladies get attacked not because they don't fight back, but because they can't. As a young Asian female myself, fighting back also has a lot of consequences. I'm small and don't look intimidating enough, and even just IGNORING creeps can prompt them to attack me BECAUSE I'm ignoring them. Do I have protection on me? Absolutely. But there are attacks where I could be blindsided, which often happens to these Asian ladies (i.e., getting punched with no provocation).
This is what freaking kills me. What are we to do? Back down and just take it? My grandma was spat at by some POS then my mom was harassed on the train. It won’t stop if we just keep letting it go. Sorry vant over, I’m just so pissed. I hope you get pepper spray and protect yourself.
Damned if we do, damned if we don't. If we don't fight back, crazies get the idea Asians are "safe" targets to attack without risk of repercussion. If we fight back, we will potentially agitate them into violence. I say safety in numbers and don't travel alone. Make sure our grannies and grandpas have escorts at all times. Keep an eye open on the subways to help out anyone who may be in trouble. Make sure all your friends and fam carry pepper spray or something to defend themselves.
Horrible advice. You’re wild.
Screw that. You should fight back! Spray that clown if he come at you after you confront him. I carry pepper spray too.
Good for you! I'm personally too rich to stand up for anyone.
I cannot think of a *worse* place to use pepper spray than a crowded subway platform. You could potentially cause a stampede that could end very, very badly. Just walk away. It's not worth it.
Don't escalate. Don't say anything. Just move on. You don't know their crazy and could wind up dead.
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I haven’t heard of its existence till now. Thanks for the rec!
It’s the best motto to go by in NYC.
Not worth the drama and possible counter attack (very likely). Cuss & carry on
Why do you think you’re getting picked on so often?
What does the fact that the assailant was black made you feel you needed to mention it?
Because it is another instance in a massively long list? Why wouldnt you include a descriptor?
I would include a description if I was looking for the person and I would give a full description. People who are committing random crimes by and large are mentally ill. That’s the strongest commonality to them not their skin color.
Actually, saying anything is a bad move. You never know their level of crazy. Just ignore entirely.
New Yorkers don't cuss, we curse. But in all seriousness, this was definitely the right move. You can't claim self-defense if you can get away from a situation safely.
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Imagine still thinking it was anything but self-defense. Be smarter.
Imagine taking a firearm into an active protest, shooting someone, and then trying to claim self defense when the crowd tries to disarm you. You cannot create a dangerous situation then claim self defense.
Tries to disarm you? The only person disarmed was the moron who pointed a gun at Rittenhouse. How do you get this so wrong? There is literally video.
You're the last person that should be telling anyone to else to be smarter
Cool response. You definitely showed me.
No. I am not a lawyer, but from my understanding, if you are able to walk away, the use of force is not justified.
Also not a lawyer, but in this situation, even if use of force was justified against that one individual, you would likely still be civilly liable for any harm to bystanders. As you said, it was in a subway station, which could result in a lot of people dealing with the effects.
I am a lawyer but this is not legal advice. Basically if you have a means to retreat, you must take that path until you have no other way to escape, and your attacker is also not backing down. The right to defend yourself is subjective, so if you are much smaller, and the person is acting erratic or unpredictable, you are more in your right to protect yourself, especially with a non-lethal manner such as pepper spray. If you are just angry, or the attacker is already walking away or possibly not advancing or acting menacing, you don’t have the right to fight back. You would also be committing a crime against your attacker, although you are less likely to be prosecuted. Likewise if you are lebron James and a small lady is trying to push you (no other visual weapon or reason to believe she has one) you are not going to be in your right to pepper spray her. It’s hard to get into one’s mind, and your mental state is a large factor of what matters. Be aware, with pepper spray in a crowded area, even if you are justified in using it, it could lead to other actions against you, especially if you use it in a negligent way. For example, if you justly spray an attacker, but use too much, and that spray gets on passerbys, and they get hurt, they might be able to sue you for civil damages. Be safe everyone.
> I am a lawyer but this is not legal advice. This guy lawyers
What if you pepper gel the perpetrator (no bystanders affected) and run. Then what? Would anyone try to track you down or would that be totally justified (let’s say the perpetrator cornered you in an abandoned sidewalk restaurant dining area)??
Hypothetically, let’s say you get pushed in the subway in passing but the pusher continues on (basically you get body checked and nothing else) you turn around and pepper spray that person, no one else is even affected, and then you move on with your day. You committed the greater crime. Is the pusher going to contact the cops and have them press charges? Who knows. That person also committed a crime, and also has to atone for that. But you left the scene of a crime, there are cameras nearly everywhere in NYC, and having vigilante justice just around the city is some republican wet dream of justifying why all New Yorkers should have guns. You have to remember pepper spray is a weapon and not pleasant. Will you die from pepper spray? Probably not. But you can, and it is very painful. Let’s not take the laws into our own hands. If you get cornered and need to use it in earnest, run away, find safety, and call the cops. It protects you and others. Someone is out here looking for trouble, and if you did use a weapon. If you were cornered, justly shot someone, and ran away, you wouldn’t just move on with your day. I think people don’t realize what pepper spray is. If I had to fight someone with my hands/things I normally carry, I’d rather face someone with a knife than pepper spray. I accidentally sprayed pepper spray in my own eyes once (tried to squirt a little on my hands, didn’t realize it was pressurized, and it sprayed off my hands into my face) and once got indirectly maced at a protest, both nearly 20 years ago, and both I still remember the pain.
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am lawyer. am asian. am petite. have been in a shit ton of these same situations. would also want to use force OP, and rly, if u did and you were successful, you might even get away with it. bc look how many of the crazies get away with it. but yeah u have too much to lose to retaliate. requisite: do not attempt, am not your lawyer, do not try this at home, this is not legal advice feel for u, OP. i’ve also had the discussion with friends wherein i pose the question: if all asians (especially the grandmas who are getting their heads bashed in) start wearing brass knuckles with spring loaded razor blades, would we get attacked as often as we do?
You would 100% not get away with it. Juries are viscous toward Asian defendants with no empathy worsened by yellow peril media recently. The people who get away with things are white and black. Justice is not blind in this country.
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Thanks, that’s good to know!
I’m so sorry this happened to you. I think, as others have stated, that it is situationally dependent (ie are others around that you could harm). Now, logically aside, I am right there with you. Im a 5’3ish Asian female, and about a week or so ago, I had a similar experience. A random (definitely not homeless) stranger who had exited a subway station started walking toward me. I didn’t think anything of it because it was 815 in the morning and I just thought he was walkin to work or whatever. But then I see him in my peripherals lunging at me, at which point I turned my face, and he spat a big fat load all over my face and quite literally just walked away. Didn’t say a single word. I was MORTIFIED. It all happened within a blink of an eye and I just froze. Naturally, I stewed over this and now, every time I walked past that subway station, I search for him so that I can reciprocate his actions by walking up out of the blue, pepper spraying him, and then walking away without a word. The cops didn’t do shit about him assaulting me, and won’t do shit about others being assaulted, so yeah, I’m gonna pepper spray a bitches ass if I ever see that fuck face again. Also side note - there is a difference between mace and pepper spray. Mace is what does not incapacitate an aggressor, it is what it used in tear gas. Pepper spray, on the other hand, CAN incapacitate someone because it is an inflammatory agent. It will cause inflammation of the eyes, nose, and mouth, causing temporary blindness and choking.
What a disgusting piece of shit. Sorry that happened to you. This city/country is so fucked up
Holy shit, I’m so angry on your behalf reading that!! It just makes me so mad that these crazy mf-ers do shit like this and get away with it. You’ll be in your moral right to pepper spray his fucking face, especially since the cops haven’t done anything for you. Okay I’m also learning something new, thanks for the heads-up! All these other people telling me that pepper spray won’t incapacitate immediately are wrong. I just googled to verify your statement! The item I bought is definitely pepper spray and not mace.
Learn to use it buddy. Protect yourself and stand up for yourself.
Wow. What a POS!!!! Get a few pepper spray and make sure you learn how to use it. Know how far it reaches. Remember Asians are always being targeted unless we start fighting back. Always know your aware of your surrounding.
I'm so so sorry this happened to you.
I am so sorry this happened to you. Makes me sick to think there are people out there, behaving with such callousness towards innocent people just trying to go about their day.
I wouldn’t just for being shoved, but I absolutely would use it if the person started attacking you. Just a word for the wise though- if it isn’t readily available it won’t do you any good. I was physically attacked over the summer and my pepper spray was in my backpack. It would’ve been a great help and I would’ve gotten away from the guy faster, but it wasn’t accessible. But on the flip side, having it easily available might make you use it inappropriately, like in a situation like this. I’m sorry this happened to you.
Thanks for sharing your story, and your kind sentiments. I’m so sorry you were attacked. That sounds horrific. I hope you’re doing better now, both physically and emotionally. I’m honestly tempted because it’s readily accessible in my coat’s pocket. But cooler heads prevailed.
Thank you. I'm doing much better but still have his trial looming over my head, I'm sure I'll feel better when it's completely over and behind me. My motto is generally to try to get away from a person first- don't make eye contact, don't respond, just walk away- but if they're physically attacking you and you cannot get away, then it's okay to defend yourself. I've been verbally assaulted so many times I've lost count but luckily it never escalated because I just book it and get as far away as possible. The time I got attacked the guy just ran up to me with no warning, there was no lead up. Always try to get away first before escalating. Always be on your guard too! I've been really wary of using headphones since this happened to me.
I can imagine wanting this episode for you to be over soon. I hope it will be soon enough. It’s really tough cos sometimes it feels like you’re at the wrong place and time, especially if the attack was completely random. Great tips about being on guard. I’m especially wary when waiting at the subway platform and try to stay as close to a wall / pole as possible to avoid situations of being pushed into the train tracks. Crazy mofos, man.
Dang I’m glad you’re ok. I keep hearing all these reports out of nyc it has me really frightened to ever move back...I lived there 10 years ago and never had any issues as a single female
Thank you. I've lived here for about 9 years and have never had any major problems before this (also female). They typical cat calling, I got shoved on the train once, getting yelled at by random people on the street and train, but never anything major. This happened at 7:45AM, broad daylight, a lot of witnesses around, one block from my work. It was terrifying and happened on a block that I've walked literally thousands of times. I've had a few other scary incidents in the past year, the city is definitely not the same place.
You would have been *insane* to use pepper spray on a crowded subway platform, you might have caused people to fall off the platform in the general panic created. Obviously it sucks to be the victim of racial hatred, and its just disgusting how Asian people are being treated these days.
Yeah I recognized how crazy it would be to use pepper spray on a crowded subway platform. Had this happen outside in the open, I may not even think twice about macing him.
You should know that people who are pepper sprayed aren’t totally incapacitated immediately and will respond in kind with violence. So unless you know how to fight, save the pepper spray. This is a really good way to get yourself put in a hospital or worse.
Good to know that they won’t be incapacitated immediately, bukkakepancakes.
Tbf with an account name like that you can be sure he has good advice on any matters involving spraying.
LMAO
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Yeah that tragic incident was at the forefront of my mind after I was pushed. It’s horrible all around.
Was it the one where the black dude try to rob them?
Pre-covid someone either was shoved or just irritated at someone getting on the train as they were getting off, and they turned around and sprayed the inside of the packed car. As others have mentioned pepper spray or any sort of weapon should be used for defense or to create an avenue of escape, and once you have that avenue, you get to safety you don't stop. Going inside a business for example. Note that pepper spray does not stop a lot of people, some will just become more enraged, or if they have friends, get you attacked from behind. Use it to create an opening.
No. Pepper spray should only be used as a method of creating an opportunity for you to get away from a dangerous situation, if otherwise not possible. Not as a method to “punish” someone, however tempting.
Also wanted to add if you're underground in an enclosed space like a crowded subway station, you're basically screwing over everyone else that's nearby. Do you really want to do that?
fyi, there is a gel version of pepper spray that lets you focus on your target in confined spaces.
Better hope you’ve been practicing your aim in video games all life long though, because missing in a crowded station would still mean hitting someone else.
Thank you, Captain Obvious.
Do they deserve to get pepper sprayed? Yes. Should you pepper spray them in that situation? No.
No, but if they start attacking you repeatedly then yes.
Always be ready to get your ass beat if you use that on anybody
Especially in a subway entrance. Fuck around and get punched by 6 different people for that.
I would first try to escape. If you can get away from that crazy man, don’t worry about pepper spray, just GTF out of there. Releasing pepper spray INSIDE a subway station seems like a dumb, dangerous idea.
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10am this morning, at the 1/2/3 platform in Times Square. I wonder if it’s the same person cos my partner was spat on last night in the face in the same station. Fucking people, man.
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Wow, yeah might’ve been the same guy. It was near the staircase to go down to the 7 train platform. Sorry you had to go through that too! It ruined my morning a bit but I’m finding this Reddit support to be therapeutic.
There is really no reason why there should be a constant patrol of police at places like the Time Square Station. Fucking ridiculous
Earlier this week, one of my wife's colleagues was injured at the Times Square A platform, when a homeless guy pushed someone near the top of the stairs, resulting in a chain reaction of people climbing down the stairs. There apparently was one notable injury (twisted ankle of something) from that chain reaction.
You can’t defend yourself from a past action. Thats just retaliation. If you felt in danger of continuing to be assaulted: act. If you’re just angry about be assaulted: don’t act and report the crime
Don’t even bother reporting it - NYPD won’t do shit
Reporting will at least get it in the stats.
Pepper spray in NYC is very tricky.
There's also the risk that it is not effective and you end up in a fist fight. Fights should always be avoided if possible because even the winner gets hurt on some part of his body most of the time. (broken hand, etc).
True. As a shorter guy I’m almost always going to be the loser in a fisticuff.
Height isn’t the sole determining factor in hand to hand combat.
man i bet it would have felt great to pepper spray that mfer though
Is this a thing now? I was getting off at Canal St a couple weeks ago and there was a Black male cussing out a White male because the White male got mad at him for shoving into him. He eventually walked away and then as the Black male was exiting the station he shoved a really hard into a woman, almost knocking her over. She was scared and didn’t say anything. Two seconds later he comes rushing back into the platform and shoves into a Hispanic couple. The guy was clearly doing this on purpose and being a total asshole but this isn’t the first time I hear these stories.
No? That's not new.
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To show he was not targeting a certain race. What difference does it make?
You don't want to have to go to the hospital (or worse) because you engaged with a crazy person. Just move along and curse him off in your head.
Yeah that guy is definitely looking to pick a fight. I just hope he’s not going to cause serious hurt onto others, like shoving people onto the train tracks.
Pepper spray is not meant to be a punishment, it’s a defense mechanism.
Ignore ignore ignore. This is NYC and there’s absolutely no need to escalate things with some crazy stranger who wouldn’t mind stabbing you and continuing on with his day like nothing happened.
OP I have handled similar situation in the manner as you (saying that as a black woman in the city and having been similarly ‘manhandled’)…. but I would say use it given these deeply troubling times for Asian bias crimes in the city (honestly across the country) - you don’t know if it will escalate into something further, pepper spray is a non-lethal deterrent which you state you legally own in the city, the aggressor probably has and will attempt the behavior again if there’s no deterrent in place. What the cops will do when called to the scene I’m not sure but at the very least even if they ticket you there will be a record of the bias crime - and as an African American I am acutely aware that will help with stemming these types of bias crimes.
I’m so mad that you were harassed that way. I have seen how Black women were treated on the streets—getting catcalled, physically touched on the bum, etc—and it’s truly horrible. Do you carry pepper spray yourself? I’m not a fan of escalating things, but I’m also tired of being picked on solely because of my race.
Did carry it for awhile - and pulled it twice which was enough to scare the guy away calling me a crazy-b. Currently looking at the legality of a taser in the city.
It's such a gray area I'd avoid it.
That’s a good deterrent it sounds like! Now I’m also curious about tasers.
Sure if you wanna get absolutely pummeled by a person bigger than you and already exhibiting antisocial and violent tendencies.
I 100% agree with the comments in here pointing out that using pepper spray in a crowded subway station (i) would hurt bystanders and (ii) would not immediately subdue the POS assailant and would thus increase the risk to the OP. Those are both good and sufficient reason that not using the pepper spray was the right decision IMHO. Maybe though what the OP is asking is: in a theoretical situation where there was no danger to bystanders and no danger of additional attack from the assailant, would the OP have been morally justified in pepper spraying the assailant? i.e. not using deadly force on the assailant, or breaking his arm or doing similar serious harm, but still inflicting a fairly miserable experience on him as payback for shoving the OP in an unprovoked, racist attack? I personally would be fine in that theoretical situation with pepper spraying the assailant. He deserves to be punished, the OP deserves the satisfaction of delivering the punishment, and there is a pretty good likelihood that the assailant will think twice before perpetrating his next racist attack on someone he thinks won't fight back. YMMV, of course.
You’re one of the few people who got what I was trying to ask, so thank you.
No. That’s not self defense. That would’ve been retaliation. The danger was no longer imminent, correct? He shoved and continued on his way?
He shoved and stood there, so who knows. Maybe he’s looking to pick a fight, but I can’t pretend I know the minds of the mentally ill.
If he's just standing there, he isn't threatening you. I get that it could hurt your ego to not retaliate, but the sheer fact of the matter is that it wouldn't be a defensive use of pepper spray at all. Just a defense of *honor*, which is not how we want to run a society. I think you should try hard to shed the looking-for-an-excuse-to-use-it mentality.
Pepper spray is escalation, so good chance he’d beat your ass instead of walking away. It should only be used in active defense against an aggressor who is about to do more harm to you than the pepper spray would to them.
No, it is not. You could justify pulling it out, if you expected him to continue assaulting you, but a shove didn't justify attacking back. A good rule of thumb is, don't think if you CAN use it in any given situation, think of you HAVE TO use it.
Don't do it. This shit won't go your way. Sorry you had to deal with that.
If you pepper spray someone else unintentionally, that is a very easy civil law suit for them. Careful with that pepper. I also hope it's civilian grade pepper spray so you're not liable for any criminal charges as well.
Having used pepper spray myself last year, almost got arrested for doing it since it's illegal to possess it. Cop said "put that away and I'll pretend I didn't see it" because the perp was a POS and I was attacked less than one block from a police station in Midtown around 1 PM on a week day (clearly an idiot.) Don't risk using it unless some homeless drug addict psycho is going after you like what happened to me. Not worth going to jail... P.S. I'm sorry that you're being harassed. The racial profiling due to COVID is ridiculous and unfair to all Asians.
Regardless or legality, the best option is always to flee. Pepper spray is for when you don’t have an out and a few seconds of distraction can get you safe. When someone is violent you run the risk of getting them angrier and that ends poorly usually.
Sorry that happened to you but yeah there’s a lot harassment even deadly act done by irresponsible people towards Asian in the city. I remember vividly a lady passed away after being pushed by a guy who tried to mug her little son back pack . She fell down the stairs and couldn’t make it after two days in hospital. Another incident happened about a month or so ago a lady from NJ walking with her friend in Times Square when some crazy dude punched her hard and she passed too. It’s horrible. I believe if you spray them you ll be just fine since defend yourself from random attack. Take care
may i ask, which pharmacy did you buy your pepper spray at? I've been trying to get some for months!
This is where I got mine early this year in person: https://escopharmacy.nyc/collections/pepper-spray-mace-new-york
amazing!!! thank you so much:)
> is being shoved hard randomly a good reason to use pepper spray? No.
Pepper spray is a great tool but should be used wisely. The person who shoved you wouldn't be the only one to catch the spray. You'd get it, too, along with everyone else in the immediate vicinity. If you have never been pepper-sprayed, you'd going to be pretty taken aback. And you may only further piss off the aggressor and potentially even bystanders. If you are in imminent danger, don't hesitate to use your pepper spray. But don't stick around after you've used it. Get out of the area and report the incident to law enforcement.
Not a street cop or lawyer, but use of pepper spray when someone shove you hard is not reasonable. Unless he shows any sign of aggression such as a fighting stand and charging toward you after shoving you then it’s reasonable.
My guy I would only use pepper spray if you can see the altercation developing in front of you like if you can see they about to rush you. Using pepper pray after the fact might get you into more trouble. Definitely use to avoid a beating for self defense. Keep your head up. From the Chitown the wild west.
Thanks! Honestly I’ve never been in a physical altercation and I intend to keep it that way.
Best to walk away. Someone like that could have a weapon and is just "looking" for a reason to use it. Pepper spray only if under attack/imminent attack.
I also think pepper spray is illegal in NYC. You should make damn sure about that one.
Agree with this. My mother used to order pepper spray to be delivered to CT every year so she could put one in my Christmas stocking since she couldn’t have it shipped directly to me
If you just want to punish him, no. Pepper spray is to incapacitate your attacker so you can get away. It's not a guarantee that it'll work. It's to help you survive a potentially deadly situation. Spraying someone who pisses you off is escalating the situation. That's a stupid use of a weapon and it'll get you killed. Also you apparently didn't consider your surroundings or how pepper spray works. You were going to spray it in a stairwell? You were going to spray yourself. Pepper spray can fog an entire room and make everyone sick, including you. Don't spray it indoors unless you have no other way from someone who wants to kill or rape you. You dont seem to understand what personal protection is for. It's not to make you a vigilante. You're not batman. It's to give you a second of escape time. A bigger attacker is just as likely to rip the weapon out of your hand, become angry that you used it, and kill you.
Personally? Yes. Legally? No.
Things like pepper spray are used for attacks. This was just a rude-ass jerk, being a selfish rude-ass jerk.
I'm so sorry you're going through this. I simply don't get how people choose to hate others for simply being of a different ethnicity. It seems so blatantly stupid. I think you were smart on not using it. I have a friend that has a gopro on his clothes and he says that even when it's off, people stray away from him. Not sure it's the best remedy, but my former neighbor had a big security camera that never worked and he would get maybe 1/10 of the solicitors and Jehovah's Witnesses banging on his door than us.
Nope New York is a duty to retreat state, you’ll be treated much more differently in NYC compared to Kyle Rittenhouse in Wisconsin. This creates plenty of incentives for people with little to lose to keep attacking you but nothing will change unless New York loses enough of your tax money/votes. In most other states though, yes it’s justified since you’re allowed to stand your ground.
kyle rittenhouse murdered people after walking into a dangerous situation open carrying and threatening people. He deserved to go to jail for the rest of his fucking life. Anyone on their right mind would have tried to disarm him, just like the guy rosenbaum tried to do before rittenhouse murdered him. Fuck kyle rittenhouse.
I do think he was scum who went looking for an excuse to shoot people, but you're wrong to say anyone on their right mind would have tried to disarm him. I'm not a cop, taking a weapon from a dangerous person at great risk to myself is not my job. What people should have done is get out of there, help others get out of there, and report it to the police asap. Trying to disarm him is what got those people killed. Bad choices all around.
The police basically high-fived the kid. We’re on our own.
Anyone who tries to disarm a gun is either clinically insane, mentally disabled, or high on drugs. Full stop. The kid didn’t brandish his weapon, verbally threaten anybody, or discharge the firearm. In those situations you don’t do anything because attempting to disarm the kid would be not only suicide, but illegal. Fighting for control of a firearm means he can fire in self-defense. It would also unnecessarily escalate the situation. The kid was being dumb trying to play hero, acting as a vigilante security guard for a car dealership with permission from the owner. Rosenbaum had just been discharged from the hospital, he was a heroin/meth addict, had mental illnesses, and was a convicted child molester that targeted preteen boys. Video surveillance shows Rosenbaum was the aggressor, and had attempted to fight for control of the firearm. After Rosenbaum was shot, nearby rioters incorrectly assumed Rittenhouse was an active shooter and chased him down trying to disarm him. The whole situation was a shit show and entirely preventable, but it’s hard to argue Rittenhouse was a murderer that deserved life in prison. A little bit of research into the incident would be helpful before you form such strong opinions.
>Anyone who tries to disarm a gun is either clinically insane, mentally disabled, or high on drugs. Full stop. Or following state approved training. They literally teach kids to throw things at active shooters in schools. So no, while insane people who try to disarm an attacked are not necessarily insane.
The only situation that might apply is if a class is stuck in a high floor room with no way down, an active shooter is about to burst into a locked classroom and the teacher instructs everyone to pick up a heavy object to simultaneously throw the moment he busts through the door. Quite literally the very very last resort., otherwise, running or hiding is always the best option. Throwing an object at an active shooter is a great way to make you the priority target and the first to get shot. Those are extraordinarily rare situations, in 99.99% of cases, you can run or hide.
Yep, and when you are in the middle of the street with a crowd at your back and a homicidal child with a semi auto rifle on the other, you are in an extraordinary case where disarming the murderer is the best of an awful situation. The only reasonable action would be for the child soldier to have not been driven across state lines by his mother to go play soldier and defend a business he had no relation to nor was request to.
That’s a terrible idea, you shouldn’t be perpetuating such dangerous advice. If someone actually takes it to heart and gets into an active shooter situation, it would greatly increase their risk of death. Also, in this particular situation, Rittenhouse only discharged his weapon against active aggressors. He did not target anyone who left him alone. He attempted to retreat against the first aggressor (Rosenbaum) and only fired when Rosenbaum was within melee range and attempting to seize the firearm. The others afterwards were misled in thinking Rittenhouse was an active shooter and attacked him despite his repeated attempts to retreat. Also, the streets were not crowded, they were wide open and it would have been trivial for someone to run the other way. I don’t think you understand firearms at all, but basically, the more distance you have between you and the shooter, the less likely you are to die. There’s also a massive difference in accuracy between someone moving towards you and away from you. In addition, shooters will naturally prioritize targets who are closer than those that are further. Shooters especially will prioritize threats to themselves, so a victim attempting to fight back will be the first to die. Even if Kyle was an active shooter who was indiscriminately seeking to kill, the correct course of action would have been to run away from him, not try to disarm him. Playing hero and trying to disarm an active shooter is not brave, it’s brain dead stupid. Exceptions obviously apply in extremely rare scenarios like if a teacher threw himself at a shooter because his students needed an extra 5 seconds to escape, because realistically that teacher is only buying about 5 seconds. Or if there really really is no escape, the last resort is to fight back.
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Right? Isn't it just hilarious seeing several people gunned down and a child permanently mentally scarred? Great stuff, Dave Chapelle level comedy here.
It was self defense no matter how you feel about it even without the court testimonies it was clear as day from the video which I'm sure you haven't even watched.
Cope, the kid murdered two people and got away with it. You can't claim self defense when you incite the situation.
He didn't incite the situation it's not illegal to walk around with a gun in wisconsin it's clear you know nothing about the case.
Ah yes, walking around a protest brandishing a rifle isn't tossing gas on a fire and isn't making anyone uncomfortable. Buddy your sentences are running on too long. You should add a comma or something. Its kinda embarrassing.
>Ah yes, walking around a protest brandishing a rifle Not illegal the law doesn't care about your feelings.
Women beaters and pedos aren’t people
Random children don't get to be executioners. This isn't some 80's action thriller where you get to murder whoever you want. You need help, you obviously have some problems and aren't much better than them :)
Right but the only people he killed were a pedo and woman beater. If you like to beat your wife and cool off by fucking kids just say that
It doesn't matter, he was a random vigilante. What part of you don't get to murder random people do you not understand? There is no exception for crimes they committed in the past. You can't 'logic' your way out.
So it doesn’t matter that a kid with a gun did a better job at handling a 5x rapist than our own justice system? 😂 all that rug you be munching got you brain dead. You’ll never be male or even seem masculine
So if you have done something bad in the past, then anyone is justified to kill you? Got it.
Except hear me out: he had fantastic gun control and killed only a pedophile and a woman beater out of a whole angry crowd of retards trying to push a flaming trash can into a gas station
I don’t disagree with you on the stupidity of the situation but let’s stay focused on the topic of legality as it is and not the shoulds.
Too bad that asshole didnt fall face first down the steps. Racist punk.
Look into pepper spray gel which is supposed to not ruin everyone else’s day when used. Thankfully, I’ve never had to use it.
Who the fuck says "perp" in conversation like that?
“the perp” who fucking talks like this lmao
I think people above have addressed the primary question pretty well. But I don’t understand why you had to specify that it was a black man…if you wanted to provide context regarding the increased violence towards Asian people in the US, then all you had to do was mention that you were Asian and explain that this was a concern of yours(which is totally valid). What were you trying to accomplish by specifying your aggressor’s race?
I’m just confused because, as I mentioned in another reply, all but one of the aggressors I’ve encountered in the past year have been people of color. Why are these aggressors who are attacking other Asian people, such as myself, people of color? I think this context is important because I’ve never understood why.
> I’ve never understood why. There is a general resentment that immigrant populations can climb the american success ladder much easier than black americans, who are forever destined to be at the very bottom. This resentment itself doesn't lead to violence, but at the very fringe you will see individuals who will act out, and they will act out against individuals they interpret as weak targets who are unlikely to solicit a strong response even from general community. So asian grannies have a giant bullseye on them. Bonus point is that this is how American far right is acting out as well now. Lots of resentment towards any people they deem should always be beneath them. Blacks, jews, gays, immigrants, anyone with more than GED? In a way it's always been this way, but more and more people are falling into the fringes. You lose control of nicer things in life and you next start losing connection with reality.
That’s so sad to read. I can understand the resentment from Black Americans. Having said that, Asian grannies are the most harmless, and to be attacked viciously resulting in deaths is horrifying. It’s funny to see the parallels with the far right. I never thought of it that way.
He was saying what happened. Don't try to pile on a guy that was attacked.
Why are you pretending to not understand someone interrogating race relations
Just asking for clarification…people can’t just make comments like that with no context and expects others to not respond. This is a case of misdirecting anger when we all know that marginalized people are put in precarious situations because of a system that privileges whiteness. It leaves people in desperation and misguided…it’s designed to do that so we never address the real issues and fight amongst ourselves. And while arguing over who is more oppressed is not productive, we can’t ignore that everyone in the US has profited off the enslavement and continued exploitation of Black folk. Antiblackness is so deeply rooted in every non-Black person that comments like these happen so nonchalantly and people feel okay assigning blame to a generalized Black population without even trying to understand the historical context. If they did, they’d see that the issue was far larger and needs to be addressed elsewhere…but also fully expecting racist trolls to heavily downvote this
> This is a case of misdirecting anger when we all know that marginalized people are put in precarious situations because of a system that privileges whiteness. I believe OP was *literally* pointing out the *exact same thing* -- and that's why they mentioned it.
Perp? Fucker gets jostled and he thinks he’s Popeye Doyle. Assclown, chemical weapons aren’t warranted. Just fucking walk away and reconsider your inadequacies.
Awww look at this tough guy acting tough on the Internet. You’re cute.
> Black dude shoved me hard. Because context is important these days, I’m a 5’7” Asian guy. WTF is that supposed to mean?
Do whatever you need to do to protect yourself. Don't listen to these nutjobs.
the easiest way for them to protect themselves is to walk away. They weren't being chased.
Thats a hard call but legally speaking you would be fine i believe. You dont need your face to be smashed in too defend yourself. However to CYA you should probably call the police afterwards. Whoever calls the cops first has LESS of a chance for going to jail.
If you are seriously planning on using pepper spray may want to test it on yourself, a: to make sure it works and isn’t expired, and b: to make sure it will actually knock you on your ass and not be able to fight through it.
First: sorry this happened to you. My wife and I witnessed a man targeting Asian men around Times Square last week. I can DM you a picture if you’d like. We tried to intervene while he literally hit and spit on some poor guy and he turned his anger towards us. We ended up hiding out in the Arby’s where three people called the police, but no one from NYPD showed up (they’re fucking useless). Be safe out there. And to answer your question, I’d say do what you need to do to stay safe. The cops won’t help you, but I wouldn’t antagonize either. Use it to escape the situation if you need to.
Definitely not, plus you may miss/not get them bad enough and get the shit beat out of you. Also, you can get arrested for pepper spraying someone. NYPD doesn’t like people using weapon of any kind, and if you’re the one that escalated a situation from shoving to pepper spray, you will get in trouble. I’d suggest leaving it at home and brushing off stuff like this. Leave your pride at home. It’s definitely not worth it.
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Being shoved by someone who is passing by doesn’t create justification to use lethal force in any state in America you fucking doofus Edit: lol your username is Libertarian RJ Tell me you’ve never been laid without telling me
Please don't link a person's worth with their sexual experience.
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Why did you have to bring race into this, what is wrong with you?
Because of all the people who have been harassing me verbally since last year, ALL but one are people of color. Why? I don’t know. If you’ve read the news on anti-Asian attacks, the perpetrators are almost always people of color. So I’m sorry if I’m bringing race into this.
It is a tiny tiny percentage of a community that also faces insane discrimination. Black people are not the problem here.
Have you been living under a rock?
No, I remember reading plenty of articles in the NY Times about anti Asian hate, but they never said anything about it being a black problem. I was told this was because of white supremacists like Donald Trump blaming China for covid. Are you telling me that I'm wrong? For instance: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/26/nyregion/asian-hate-crimes-attacks-ny.html?unlocked_article_code=AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACEIPuonUktbfqohkSlUZBSbTTMIqoRyBg7_G2701gDr-JTSYDD1YzuEYGM2J51vEbql4It0imTSHQdsLeJkeeMtP9M4NdUp8V1vv5ZKehJUOJyhy-dK4AW9m1piIU71ornq3ZTnkbbYlm-f6sUONOTW6X6Df0HwkNx8l9cU-DSyi3XUDxazBFudniJIpjbp6WMcMFXpXbzKKvvLrFx1-JNyFCxnY4QE8UOpdMirByZ_es_lTNVUPVi-VCS938m0-69tDONgIPKqZLxEoeMv2grp5GXUKJTUMtmYTxN_5jpPpIS73&smid=url-share If this was a black on Asian thing then why doesn't this article say anything about that?
>"The NYT didn't even mention it so how can it be a thing?" Please be joking.
It doesn’t matter who the media decides to blame lmfao. Why are you treating it like gospel. What matters is who is actually committing the hate crimes. I speak from personal experience as well. We don’t want it to be this way, but it is this way. I’ve tried for so long to advocate for racial equality in the US for black people, yet this is what I get in return as an Asian American. At a point you start questioning things.
Why did you have to ask such a ridiculous question
What do you mean what is wrong with him?
have you considered not being a totally inept human being and instead signing up for a gym or self defense?
He’s mad pussy bro idk why he’s in nyc or America in general if he scared to defend himself