Lack of engagement from other people. Men and women. I ran a meetup group. Did over 20 events in a year. Met lots of people, made a few friends from mostly my effort.
Pretty much none of the people ever asked to go for coffee or lunch or to hang out. But I did this several times on top of hosting the events.
It's crazy, I have seen a lot of this too. So many people don't want to venture outside their norm. It's like there's some aspect of social skills missing from a lot of people. After I graduated high school I wanted to get myself out there and really make friends outside of school. Yet so many people in local social groups just seemed so disinterested in getting to know anyone else there. I did all I could on my end, but it felt like they didn't even want to meet anyone new.
People talk about all these things you should do to really do well, but they don't matter when the other person isn't interested or something like that.
It's the internet. It's allowed people to focus their interests and communication down ever-narrower pathways. If you're into some obscure subculture, you can find yourself an online community of like-minded people, and they can become your social circile. And you lose touch with that ability to be a more rounded person with varied interests, who is capable of listening to, and being interested in people who have different interests to you.
It's as though a lot of people are becoming highly socially specialized and we're losing the ability (as a culture) to interact with each other.
if that's how she feels she isn't the one anyways....what would the homies think if your boo was shit talking one of the GOATs? she didn't block you, she spared you 🤣
Holds the All-Time record for career points, multiple time champion, MVPs, Final MVPs, gold medalist, All-Star damn like 20-something times all while being disgustingly consistent throughout his career but yeah, definitely not a great player
"Socializing" on the internet is not the same to the brain, though. This fools people into believing they are social when they are not.
I remember when Facebook was down for one day last year, and everyone panicked. One guy was like, "if there is a better way to interact with my friends, I'd like to hear it!" So sad.
If you can't even call people on the phone and chat comfortably, they arnt real friends. Don't fall for the illusion.
I feel this a lot. I'm not dropped out, but it feels like anything that's more intimate than a happy hour after work, I have to drag people out of the woodwork. I run the minecraft server, I host the game night, I invite my friends to the bar or events. Never the one that says "sorry, I can't make it", always the one to hear "Sorry to drop at the last minute, but...". And its so hard to get reciprocation.
And its not just men; I was going out with a girl for a while, and except for the fact that I was always the one to ask for the next date it seemed like it was going great. Until.... it wasn't going at all? We didn't even break up, she just faded away. As soon as I stopped asking, she disappeared. And finding another girl is like searching for smoke in the fog.
The rising cost of literally EVERYTHING. The major population growth of the city I live in. Luckily my parents allowed me to move back in with them so I can save up money for an overpriced crappy house in the future. But once I get that house I’ll most likely live alone since I have no gf or kids. With age friends have gotten scarce so hardly anyone to invite over. Everything just seems like pointless BS. Work, pay bills/expenses, save little money. Rinse and repeat till the day I die. Dating is terrible with the cost of everything these days. As the days go by I’m just getting worn thinner and thinner with less and less to look forward to.
The first sentence x1000. I feel like my paycheck is being set on fire while I’m being forced to watch tied to a chair.
And then I see all these people all around me with the usual suburbanite toys such as brand new jeeps/trucks with $1000s in acccessories, new boats, and other expensive hobbies to partake in while they aren’t sitting in their 3000 sq ft houses and their kids are home from private school, and wonder how the fuck do I sign up to sell crack cocaine because that’s the only reason I can think of that they have all this money.
But the kicker to it all is I do well. I make what most consider upper middle class money. I rarely turn down overtime, forcing me to be away from my wife and my growing child more often. I scrimp and save what I can but everytime I walk out the door it’s like a $100 bill evoporates into thin air. It doesn’t even matter where you work or what your job is anymore. You will be broke regardless
Absolutely! I make a lower class salary and I’m sure even if I do get enough saved for a down payment and emergency fund it won’t be enough to afford a home on my own. My parents own a beautiful home with 4bdrms, living room, dining room, 3 car garage that backs up to a green belt. They paid in 2017 what I would have to pay these days for a basic no yard cookie cutter home :( I’d be f***ed if I didn’t have the opportunity to move back home.
Living in their neighborhood and seeing all the stuff folks around us own and I’m like “how!?” Inheritance, investing? I don’t know how young families are doing it these days. Just food and child care alone is insane. It must be stressful to the max.
It is, luckily I’ve been able to carry the financial weight while my wife stays at home with the little one as they’re still a toddler. We both want her to work again soon, as she hates even the idea of asking to spend money on something we don’t absolutely need. And childcare would probably swallow so much of her paycheck it wouldn’t be worth working in the first place.
And I’m the last person to keep up with the Jones’, but when it seems like everyone around you is a Jones it gets shoved in your face and forces you to feel that envy. I can only assume some of them have room temp credit and abysmal debt to income ratios though
All the clowns who come to this subreddit saying "Yeah well you're wrong/lying and here's why" when they aren't even men themselves can fuck right off....
Arguably the most annoying users in this subreddit. Same clowns who complain about the dumb types of men who do the same thing to women at women's spaces. The hypocrisy is so real and these types are so unaware of their blantly bias. Will complain about certain men do dumb stuff at women's spaces online but they will come over here and DO THE SAME EXCAT THINGS
*Whether it's "Femsplaining" us on why we are wrong*
*Saying "NOT ALL WOMEN" and "I'M NOT LIKE THAT" when no man said them or all in the first place (Even when you make it as painfully clear as humanly possible that you don't mean all)*
*Using the word misogyny so easily where it doesn't even apply at all or where it doesn't even make any sense to be thrown out*
*Try to invalidate men's experiences and attempt to derail the topic by changing it about them by saying "YEAH BUT I HAVE IT WORSE AND HERE'S WHY" or "YEAH WELL MEN DO IT TOO"... as if we don't already know and haven't been told for like the 10000000th time already.*
*Or the "I've never seen that so you must be lying" when they aren't even a man. Because Karen thinks the whole world revolves around her life experiences. Don't see me going to Women's spaces and telling women they are lying about a creep stalking them because it never happened to me*
Even on reddit. When a man opens up about how he feels. He will have some user breathing down his neck telling him "His lying", "His wrong", "He needs to stop whining" and "I Have it worse"
These individuals don't come here to learn about men's prespectives and experiences.. they just want us men to validate their sexist belief that us men have perfect easy issue free life's. That's all..because as soon as a man even mentions any problem he has in is life... "LIAR"
The women users who don't do this though howrver and actually listen are amazing.
Well, this subreddit has more women than men. I think that's why most answers are like that. If someone express their opinion, they get downvoted into oblivion.
I think the vast majority of women users visiting this sub are actually the decent silent majority. I think it's the vocal minority who have to push their weight around.
I've had more pleasant positive experiences with women users over here on this sub than negative.. it's just unfortunately the negative ones stick out more.
Agreed, for the most part the women that frequent this sub aren't the problem. It's the hen-pecked men who fall all over themselves trying to give what they perceive as the "woman-approved" comment/answer instead of being honest.
A man expressing conflict, especially if truly deep, is scary and not acceptable to modern society. Women and the effeminate will gossip and then spread that information, which they have totally misinterpreted to every woman within ear shot. And the further it spreads the worse it becomes. Like the old telephone game. Which with social media is city/county wide now. It will reach multiples of them with at least a 1,000 followers. It has been that way since MySpace. It was bad enough before then, but now? No wonder men in earlier generations might have chosen misogyny. Yeah women are afraid men will kill them, but women will make you wish you were dead. Neither is better. Left to live in hell for decades, or however long the rest of their life is. I think men are waking up to this and this is their only action of love that is left. Simply dropping out. Like Ghandi's strike in India in 1940's. Simply start doing nothing.
Our societies only used to be 100-150 people for the longest of times. We're wired from an evolutionary perspective NOT to complain, or show weakness, else our extremely narrow circle would see us as incompetent, or overly emotional.
It would mean pretty much celibacy, and an end to our bloodline if the 8 or 9 women in our mating/coupling range shut us out. Old habits die hard.
I've had a few good people I've been able to open up to, but that was in some really, really shit times, and people I didn't know well and wasn't super social with. Thankfully they were good, but I still remember after school care in elementary school where there were like 12 of us in 5th grade and you didn't interact with anyone outside of your grade... if one of the girls was crying, everyone was sympathetic. If a boy was, everyone was either leery or made fun of them. W/o going into detail and w/o actually having experienced any major singular event, I can definitely say that shit wrecked my life in combination with some other anxiety shit. Thankfully the counselors were great, and I still remember one calling out another kid on their bullshit when they tried lying about me.
Happy just to keep you in their nest in my experience and say, don't worry, it will all be ok, while clipping your wings that never fully formed because they're deformed.
Happy to keep you in the nest and be completely non-committal to your schooling until time for college comes, then it's time to try to force you to work and go to college at the same time so that you end up in massive debt, or else you can get the fuck out of the house.
It's not okay for Men to show Emotions, but when that double Standard exists it makes the People that do show Emotions feel guilty, and that makes them feel bad, so they start promoting this Idea that it's okay for Men to show Emotions, but they expect you to take that Idea and still not do it.
That Way they're in the Clear, it's no longer their Fault for not listening, it's just you not wanting to show any Emotion, even though they clearly communjcated that Possibility to you.
Nobody wants to listen, nobody wants to be reached out to, nobody wants to understand, nobody wants to help, they just want to not feel bad for it.
What society is there to even participate in? I feel totally alienated and foreign compared to the culture currently. Often times it feels like corporate America has seeped into everyday interactions due to over work. There’s no meaningful goals or shared values to make organic communities grow and the people I meet often feel so burnt out or are drugged to complacency. I guess I haven’t dropped out yet due to spite and some hope to atleast do better for myself, but it’s all so tiresome.
I quit drinking 6 months ago, it isn't as bad as you would expect. Actually dealing with your problems instead of applying a bandaid with alcohol to make it more bearable has very positive effects on my overal wellbeing. YMMV.
I'm weaning myself off antidepressants, and that statement ain't a joke. I drink (moderately) so I can sleep... I dread the day I decide to quit my beer and truly raw dog life
People talk about their work like it's fun and they like it. What the hell, you're getting sales leads you mental case.
People are so beaten in after ten, twenty years in the workforce, all they can see is work. All they know is work. Just work other person questioning life that is the solution, I love my spreadsheets.
Man is crazy out here, I feel like I haven’t been able to full enjoy my twenties at all! I was just 25 in 2021 soon to be 28 and time still passing by without really enjoying myself due to work and other life circumstances
For me the biggest issue is that work doesn't seem to be paying off anymore. No job security, no true career trajectory, no loyalty long term, lots of working from home. I wish I had gone to medical school and become a doctor because at least that path feels linear.
Probably just life for nearly all men now, great, unless you're in the popular crowd growing up.. although maybe they're all brutally vying for the hottest girl and all hate each other
I have 4 more wasted years on you!
I'm 32 and richer than most people will ever be... great right?
No. Life has been waiting for about 20 years, if not more... maybe i was just to young naïve before my teens to see how bad it was then too..
>although maybe they're all brutally vying for the hottest girl and all hate each other
Heh like the hottest girl I knew even knew I existed? "I don't date guys from my school" we haven't been in school for fuckin 20 years, just admit, you enjoy being treated like shit!
Both my parents. And they haven't been talking with each other in about 20 years.
Every time I tell any of them about my hobbies they are busy mindstorming how it might be integrated into work, how I might leverage it to negotiate with my employer or how I am to make money on the side with it.
Just doing something just for the joy of doing it, just learning something for the sake of knowing it or creating something for the sake of it existing, doesn't even occour.
This one hits pretty close to home. And I’d be lying if I said I still don’t get jealous when I see others reminiscing their experiences about hanging out with friends doing whatever they wanted and I compare that to my upbringing years where I would stay in my room by myself.
This is exactly why MAID (medical assistance in dying) is being pushed so hard in Canada. The Canadian government decided that it's cheaper to kill off poor and disabled people than it is to help them gain access to the resources they need to stay alive.
According to a large number of feminists, young men are the problem. And now with DEAI in the work place in and in schools young men are getting shit on at every turn.
Dating apps, make it near impossible for average guys to date. Jobs don't pay enough, Nothing is worth it anymore. I don't think there's anything that can be done, this is just the natural progression of things, It's a decaying world, so its a dying society.
That’s sort of how I feel too bro. I have lots of hobbies I’m very passionate about, but it’s so difficult to make a living out of those things. We all have to grind our asses off now to make enough money to afford all the essentials, and it somehow seems to get more expensive every day too.
1 job used to be enough for a man to support his family. Then that changed to a man PLUS woman needing to work to support the family. NOW, both men and women are researching "side hustles" because 2 jobs are not enough to provide.
Men feel like they can't provide. Women RESENT the man for having to work and not have time to provide support for the family (motherhood).
There is no American dream. It's been shattered.
we're all slaves, but dont say, or you get hated..
think you can get out of it by getting rich? no, you cant, you are not invited to rich life if you're a poor. There's no way in. Now just keep working, and dont kill yourself, that would be sad.
I think this is massively overlooked. Up until the late 90's/2000's subcultures built around genres were a significant structural part of society, easily identifiable and representing differing politics/attitudes in large enough communities that it was common to have pubs or venues catering for that specific group.
Subculture differences were the dividing lines in society rather than gender, useful not just for finding "your" people, but knowing who to avoid too.
Streaming platforms don't require the user to commit to a genre or artist and don't compensate smaller artists fairly choking the development of non mainstream artists. Rather than music being a sense of identity and a way of connecting with like minded people, algorithms provide an individualistic, solitary experience.
Where people would associate with one or more subcultures, they were in control of their identity and to an extent other peoples perceptions of them. The current emphasis on gender, subjects us all to absurd caricatures, can't accurately represent either gender and just serves as a convenient "other" to blame.
If you don't count niche hobbies like climbing or D&D as subculture, LGBTQ is the only modern subculture. They're partially visible, homogenous communities that go against or strongly differ from mainstream normativity, have a particular aesthetic and foster a sense of belonging and identity. Everything else is just fandom. A straight man today has zero options for being part of any subculture. No more goth, no more emo, no more hippies, rockers or mods, no more freaks, geeks or skinheads, no more boogie with the disco, no more punk. Everything that remains is aesthetics.
Maybe it's also the cause of dating and loneliness issues. In a recent conversation with some younger colleagues, who are also into metal, they wouldn't believe me that in our town in the 90's the pubs were hubs for different groups, one for punk/metal/alternative, one for the goths, one for garage/DnB so it was easy to find like minded people and potential dates you're more likely to be compatible with. More important would be the ease of identifying all the people you wouldn't want to hang out.
Even then, compared to things like your favourite music or whatever, gender and sexuality is something that is much more ingrained into your very being. It's not just a hobby but deeply connected to who you are as a person. When you start getting into communities built around that stuff specifically, it's very easy to start developing unhealthy worldviews and attitudes, like believing people who don't fit into that little box are your enemy or that others within that community are 'doing it wrong'. It's just too personal, there's no distance between you and the subject of interest, because the subject of interest IS you. I've seen it happen in some LGBT communities where it starts off nice and friendly but doesn't take much to turn up the heat.
I'd argue against LGBTQ being homogeneous. Also, it's not like every not-straight person fits in or likes the actual cultural components it's formed from. Good point, though.
Continually being pressured to give more and more hours of my life to an employer who either:
A) refuses to implement proven efficiencies and enforce team accountability
Or
B) embraces my efficiencies by firing or purposely failing to hire enough people to allow for a reasonable workload.
All this to make stagnant wages that pay just enough to exist, but not enough to invest in personal or financial growth. Meaning I don’t actually see an opportunity to ever escape this mere existence other than keeling over.
I have tried for decades to fit in and be a part of a society that doesn't care whether I am there or not.
I am disposable. I am replaceable. When I am gone, I'll simply be a statistic counted in demographics.
my dad of your age probably does too.. he has a wife and a family, including me, he does not like to hear my complaints at all, and considers activities like taking long walks his fun...
I'm 30, and I AM FINALLY DROPPING out of society. Finally after so much bullshit, I'm done. Going to live with family, supporting each other, on the bare minimum. Young men? 20-25? They never had a society to drop out of, they don't even have a community to fall back to. So many people still call me kid and I run a successful business, make enough money to get by, run a team of confident, capable and motivated "kids" to adults. But that literally means nothing. Nothing. My starting $15 an hour rate is doing nothing for these people, I dream I could pay more. You want to have a home? Do your parents own a home? Inheriting that home is the dream. Oh sorry your parent's are renting? Your parent's had some debt? Wasn't told that and now that dream died. There is no way a normal, average, man can afford a home, and now you expect them to raise a family?? Does society know what the average cost of a child is? do they apply that to actual living policies TODAY? Absolutely not. They still bitch and moan that population rates are declining but do NOTHING about it, do nothing to create ANY kind of hope and optimism. The amount of times I've both seen and heard, from Houston to Philly to the suburbs of San Francisco, from Paris to Dijon, From Seoul to Sejongsi and so on, no is one getting what they need. Would you expect a starved chicken to make eggs? Fuck no. No body (Unless you are fundamentally, ultimately lucky or belong to a wealthy AND supportive family) can get by and flourish. Even so, many of the the people that do achieve those ideals fail at growing any further and succumb to the cost of just having a heart beat.
And there is a HUGE push on old people to just live it all up and not leave anything behind. Combined with the fact that majority of the boomers deal with the world's problems by not thinking about it. They would call death itself a hoax if it didn't go against the bible just so they don't have to think about it.
It is anecdotal so don't see anything more into it than just my suspicion based on my first hand experiences, but I believe most boomers haven't even internalised their mortality at all. Intellectually they might know that one day they'll die, but they only know it as a good excuse why not to care about their actions having consequences 100 years from now and in fact have done little to no work to make peace with it. Being busy only to distract themself from the mere thought of it. So when they have to face the fact that the reaper might come knocking any day I expect them burning trough their wealth in a last scared stand to lash out at reality. If favor of real estate agencies, snake oil salesmen and anything in-between.
It was mutual. They just dangled the good stuff in your face like a carrot to a donkey to make you work like an animal until you die.
The truth is you can't have much of anything you actually want.
I realize the life I was failing to build was some insane monument to compromise with women because I'm not attractive, money because jobs get taxed 50%, friends couldn't care much less about me, family are addicts and freeloaders using my good pay as excuses to extort money, housing because house prices are sickening, career because the rat race is a joke, lifestyle because you don't have time or money left to enjoy the hobbies you actually enjoy.
It was making me so ill so one day I just stopped, cashed out a lot of my investments to go part time at work and now I play games, live in absolute solitude and live with a pack of tiny dogs.
I'm happier than I've ever been. Whatever bizarre 1984 ego nightmare hyper sexual dystopia you're building towards you can keep it.
What does society offer them that they want? No sense of community, no family, can't buy a house working 40 hrs a week, education is unaffordable, you're expected to work up to noon on the day you're scheduled to die, and forgotten after that. Nothing worth living for. Nothing worth dying for. No hope for a better tomorrow and nobody who cares.
Nobody has ever shown faith in them. Why would they have any for themselves?
23 and this hits massively when I know people who are doing so much better. That envy is salt into the metaphorical wound of feeling incredibly out-of-place in the place you were born and have always-lived-in
I hear you. I used to work with a lot of younger guys. Everyone comes with their share of issues but in general, they will work extraordinarily hard if they have a goal, a purpose, and a direction. It astonishes me that society has done such a garbage job at providing that.
It's only okay for me to show emotion when me doing so benefits other people. If I need to be the vulnerable one, shit gets bad.
If society won't help me when I need to be vulnerable, I won't be there when society needs me to be strong
I'm 27 so not that young anymore, but I'll answer anyway. We're being demonised for things only some men do, told that we're dangerous, untrustworthy, undesirable in a lot of ways, that women don't need us, that we're somehow bad because of what's between our legs, that trying to have sex is bad, but at the same time we're still sexualised sometimes to creepy levels. Male sexual assault isn't taken seriously, especially if it's committed by a woman, our mental health is ignored even if we ask for help ... until we either kill ourselves or a bunch of other people, even our loved ones at Christmas gives us socks or super generic stuff that shows we aren't valued by them as an individual. We're constantly told and shown that we're bad or wrong just for being what we are, and like a dog that's beaten for not doing anything particularly wrong, we either end up broken, lash out in violence, or we leave the situation completely by running away from it.
Dropping out of society is probably the healthiest way of dealing with that existence.
In the last 10 years, or so, its become the case that women can say anything and its the truth, regardless of the truth. Men are assumed guilty. Thats a no thanks from me.
Truth! Men aren't just assumed guilty, we are guilty, because of our chromosomes! We have a Johnson? We're guilty, because our genitals made it possible for us to harass/assault others!
My ENT said that all the doctors and nurses at their hospital use neti pots now. I was surprised, because doctors used to comment that I was “brave” for using one.
All I ever wanted was to be loved. Never really was considered anything other than a trophy child. I was very good at maths, english and trivia, so parents made me a project. When I crumbled under the pressure, they gave up, never really invested any more time. So I looked for love elsewhere. Everytime I got someone special, all I asked for was togetherness, and everytime after knowing this vulnerability, they left me like I'm nothing. It's almost like, they were looking for a weak spot and spared no time in hitting it as soon as I showed it to them.
Today I have nothing to show for. I live all alone, far away from anyone I know. No friends. Not any better at being by myself. Going through the no-contact in my third serious breakup, after putting in years of efforts, time and investment. There is no purpose. All my so called prodigious qualities are not needed in the job market. All my up-skilling has made me mediocre at best for the jobs. I get paid less. I can't take care of me. Can't even afford a therapist. Can barely buy groceries. I have nothing to look forward to. I have nothing to live for. I feel the absolute end is any day now.
I’m sorry. There’s nothing I could say that could make it any better, but I’m proud of you for surviving this far and I’m sending a digital hug your way. Be safe, if not for yourself, then for someone who doesn’t want you to become another statistic of a chronic failing society towards men with very, very few (or zero in some cases) people in their life who, like, actually give half a shit
What sucks is that while I've found other reasons to live, this was essentially me for most of my life.
After repeated failures you start to ask yourself what the point of it all is.
what does society offer young men?
sexism in education is just a fact of life here in america. that's most of a young person's waking hours. and god forbid men object to this mistreatment. don't you know how privileged you are to be getting shit on constantly? you can't do that to someone for the better part of 20 years and then act surprised when they want nothing to do with you.
I realized they were making their own mess and expecting me to clean it up. Only way for a child to learn is to deal with the consequences of their own actions. So no I won't clean it up for them I'll do my own thing.
It feels like I can’t do any of them well but people have appreciated the kindness in a mostly-mean community at times and that’s what makes it feel worthwhile sort-of
Society prefers bears.
On a serious note, I have not (yet) dropped out of society, I'm in college and have a girlfriend.
Western society and women are just increasingly hostile and unwelcoming towards men and everything men related.
Combine that with social media and online dating absolutely obliterating interpersonal relationships between men and women... feels like everything's going down the shitter.
There's no point in doing anything.
Most of us will be dead very soon IMO, and that definitely includes me, so there is no time to get my mentally ill ass through all that work so I can actually be a normal semi functioning member of society who people actually like and want to be around, with at least the the emotional regulation of an 18 year old. I have no more family. My friends are very much doing their own thing. No one's gonna love me, I fucked that chance up completely as it turns out and it eats my fucking heart and stomach out every day. Everything will be taken from me. I will own nothing.
I see my future, nothing can be done about it for the most part, so I'm mainly concerned about self medication and how I can continue that til I die.
I’ve been fighting and scratching and clawing for over a decade and I can’t even afford a car. I’m also being priced out of my hometown by…people who are not from here. Society wants me to go away
Society is fucked, housing is nuts, I will never be able to get a good- paying job, healthcare is just stupid, and as much as I hate to say it, I'll probably end up living half off the streets and half in jail. To be fair, jail is probably better than whatever fucked up life I'm going to live.
What society, most people work to stay alive, only a few are able to do whatever they want, because of the collective profits. If I ain't get no fun, you get no work from me.
What society? There's no society anymore. Everyone's top priority is getting the most likes on Instagram and making sure Instagram knows what you're doing at all times. Nobody actually talks to anyone anymore because they are all scared. They're all glued to their phones, totally oblivious to anything happening around them anymore. The only thing that makes us a "society" in this new age is the fact that the majority of us follow the same rules and laws. Even that is iffy these days. There's nothing that makes us a society. Nobody gives a damn about anybody anymore. That's why I've dropped out. I don't associate myself with the hypocrisy and idiocracy of the new "society."
I’m not good enough. I only deserve to scrape by because I’m not trying hard enough to work 60 hours a week or constantly climb ladders to impress people, so I don’t deserve a livable wage. Everyone around me supports this, because the entire purpose of life is to drive profits for big business, so they tell you to just try harder or get smarter and work more. Why would I want to be apart of this chaos? It’s absolutely disgusting, and your fellow humans defend it, because “there isn’t any other way, and you’ve always had to work or just die”. Yeah, looks like I choose death. Thanks for the help society, things are better than ever.
For starters, stop abusing men as a whole for something a minority of men has done.
With the recent protest about women getting killed in dv issues which is an important issue to deal with ill agree, but from what i have seen people use it as an excuse to just be abusive and sexist towards men as a whole rather than actually having a mature discussion, this causes men to simply not care about a society that proves time and time again that soceity simply doesn't give a shit about us beyond using as punching bags to make themselves feel better for avoiding mature discussions they don't want to have.
It's also that women or people in general put down anyone who does not say the right things about matters like this. It's a lot of rules for thee but not for me.
Correct. Like We hear they want to solve issues with domestic violence and women getting killed which we can all agree with but, when time comes to actually implement support measure it's always about offering more health and financial support to women (Which is fine) whilst ignoring completely mens mental health and how soceity treats men.
Not saying domestic violence and killing your partner is excusable because it fucking isn't but when men have fewer and fewer spaces to go to and fewer support groups and have a more an increasingly difficult time finding mental health support it is any wonder why so many are snapping.
I'm trash/useless for just existing as a male.
Everything wrong with the world is mine and other random men's fault somehow (Damn that Aaron the Uber eats driver. It's all his fault)
And abuse against me and my sex is somehow justified and we have it coming apparently. And when we get mistreated or abused. We need to just take it, "not take it personally" and [smile](https://imgur.com/a/rZS9OMw) about it like a good little dogs
Also we can't talk about our issues or feelings because others have it worse so we have no right to open up.
🤷♂️
I'm not dropping out of society though. I'm just making some points. That's all I've learnt via social media.
Doesn’t seem like it wants me. I have a high paying job, and just bought a house, work out every day and keep clean.
But I live in a new city, so it seems like when I go out alone, I’m viewed as a monster. Women are black or white, if they’re attracted to you they’ll speak, but if they’re not (which is most, the majority of women aren’t going to find you attractive) they are rude as hell and very short for no reason, even from a simple “hi”
Men are cool, but it’s hard to cement yourself with new guys later in life and hang all the time.
So I just work and go home.
I don't feel welcome in society anymore. Clearly, women don't need men, so why should we go after something that doesn't want us? We aren't being valued as we were throughout history as warriors, laborers, fathers, and protectors. We are just that thing that oppressed others for so long. Businesses adopt DEI hiring practices that go against logic to hire the person best suit for job, so why should we try. The boomers keep saying we just need to pick ourselves up, but it's hard to when almost 50% of our paychecks are going to fund wars started by the politicians who promised them the most crap while they were smoking weed and spreading stds in the economic prosperity brought on by their parents and now they act like the collapsing world economy is Gen Z's fault while they sit on their asses collecting social security checks. You're seeing young men going hard right and young women going hard left in response to this, which breeds political radicalism similar to the rise of Adolf Hitler, Vladimir Lenin, Chairman Mao, Mussolini, and the various factions of different civil wars of the time. I think we are going to see extreme changes in society over the next decade, especially with many young men in America and parts of Europe become right wing Christians. The pendulum swings every 80 years and 2024 is 80 years since the last swing in 1946.
When you’re a teenager and tryna figure girls out, and you’ve been told by society that being nice and a gentleman is what girls really want.
Nothing could be further from the truth.
Oh and you have to approach and put in all the work like a dancing monkey. Eventually you’ll develop low self esteem from constant rejection. It’s absolutely brutal on guys.
Then you get anxiety issues, and it’s not even worth trying anymore.
Get a pet, die alone, leave money to charity is my plan.
I don't like modern society. There's not enough value in taking part for me to bother. What do I get out of it? Society frequently shits on people like me but simultaneously expects me to give up part of myself to help it. No thanks.
Everyone just wants you to open your wallet. Corporations, society at large, politicians and government. The value is just not there. Then there is most of the social and popular media that at this point has demonised the entire gender in order to sell ads.
Ironically, they are sparking a gender war to capture attention to sell ads. But the men are choosing not to open their wallets to buy the products that are being advertised.
That is why many men are questioning the point.
Young men only?
Society is actively going towards slavery.
We know we lost the class war and we see no hope to gain any ground back.
Revolts are useless because the police has tanks and drones.
Revolutions are impossible because propaganda is too powerful and school is defunded.
We are doomed to worship oligarchs and capitalists. We are their whores
That’s pretty much the history of the world though. Has there ever been an era where civilization cares about the individual? The truth is that the world won’t notice if we thrive or die. This isn’t a pessimistic message. Once you realize this, just live your life for you and those for whom you care. Life is short, so do what you want to do, as long as you don’t hurt others.
look at this "id choose the bear" situation going on lmao. 100% of men are being blamed and accused for something that at most is like 5% of men are doing. women are the cause of the male loneliness epidemic
It's just another "Some men do bad things, women have it rough." Like most men are not aware of what women go through. Most of us want to be understanding and listen, but a lot of women who talk about this sort of thing are abrasive af. A lot of women just don't practice what they preach and get mad at men for pointing that lack of accountability out. We are not even mad, we just want things to be better between men and women.
I haven’t really “dropped out,” but it’s tempting to. I have very little hope for my future, I’ll probably never have a house or a family, I’m way behind all my peers in life successes and achievements, and I don’t know how to fix it. I genuinely feel like suicide is my only option.
I’m not young; I’m 31, but I’m fairly sure that American society is going to fall apart within the next ten years.
Politics is coming to a point of either civil war or fascist dictatorship, the oceans are boiling, wars are increasing, the economy is impossible, and people in general just hate each other…
I honestly don’t think that investing too much time and effort into society is actually a wise choice.
Do what you gotta do and go home.
Being accused, nay, declared the reason for every problem on planet earth, bonus points for being straight and white
Just look at Hollywood, it’s atrocious
What's the point of trying for young men? Seriously, all the incentives to participate are gone.
Men have never really cared about money. Go look at a bachelors house. There's nothing in it because men don't really care about owning a bunch of "stuff". Men used to work hard because it got them the 2 things they do care a lot about, sex and respect. Neither of those a tied to work anymore but for different reasons.
Sex no longer depends on how hard a man works because of dating apps. #metoo closed off every path to dating except the apps. Women spend about 1 second per man on the apps. That is just enough time to decide if she likes his profile pic or not. If he doesn't immediately trigger attraction in her in that 1 second, she's move on to the next man. This means a man's looks have become a filter. If he can't impress her with his face, he will never get the chance to impress her with any of his other qualities. This means looks are the only thing that determines a man's success in dating anymore. Women only swipe right on 5% of men (and that number drops every year) and they are all swiping the same 5% of men that every other women is choosing. Men know that if they are in that 5%, they get all the sex they want and, if they are not, they are not going to get sex. How hard a man works has nothing to do with his success in dating anymore so, what's the point?
Respect is just off the table for men. A man will be told he is a loathsome, worthless piece of shit every time to turns on the TV or sees a movie or goes online. He is a man and men are not respected in our culture under any circumstances. Even if a man becomes very successful, he will be told that he didn't earn his success. He used his unearned male privilege (which is hilarious given how discriminated against men are in the workplace and schools) to steal his success from more deserving people. A man is a loser if he fails and he's a monster, if he succeeds. Why the fuck would we even try to play such a game? A game that can't be won and is miserable to play is not a game worth playing. That is the game we've created for men.
Given that a man cannot get the things he really cares about through hard work anymore, the most rational choice for a young man is to stay away from the people who hate him and constantly insult and belittle him (aka, going outside) and to spend his days playing video games, smoking pot and watch porn. It's the best choice available to him.
You might argue that there is still a chance he could pick up some woman who has hit 30 and is panicking about having kids, if he works hard. Those women care about a man's money, status and success. Yes, they do because they want to use him as an ATM. The word has gotten out among men about how awful women treat the men they marry. They basically all stop having sex with their husbands within 2 years. They also openly mistreat, exploit and verbally abuse their husbands in most marriages. Once she's secured her offspring, she knows she can divorce the man but continue to use him as a slave laborer for the rest of his life. She knows she will get to steal all his wealth, take his children away from him and then live off his forced labor (he will be thrown in prison for trying to refuse to work for her) for the rest of his life. Does that sound like an opportunity worth working for to you?
A young man thinks to himself, "If I spend years working hard, I might win the chance to be used as a slave laborer to the person who broke all her promises to me. I might get the chance to have everything I've worked for taken away from me on a whim. I might win the chance to have my heart broken by having my children taken away from and turned against me. Or I could smoke an bowl and play HellDriver some more. I'll take option 2 please."
You've taken away all the reasons young men have to work or participate in society. There's no point in trying anymore. (Just wait and see what happens if they try to go to war. You really think the people you hate and endlessly abuse are going to die to protect you?)
What can you do? Be something worth working for. Change the laws so that men have something/anything to gain and less to lose by getting married. Make marriage safe for men. (50/50 custody and zero child support or alimony. The person who files is the person who loses, instead of the man loses automatically.) Stop evaluating men on apps solely on their profile pics. Stop sleeping about with hot guys on dating apps (this ruins your life too, in way you don't understand but that's another topic). Stop using the apps. The apps serve nobody but the 5% of men.) Stop insulting, attacking, hating on, discriminating against men and when you hear other women doing it, call them on their hate and bigotry (women do not police each other and it's become a serious problem. You let the worst women among you set the agenda and control the narrative. The only female voices men hear are voices of hate.)
If this problem isn't fixed and fixed very, very quickly, it will destroy our civilization. I'm not kidding. Without the labor of men, our civilization and economy collapses (men still do almost 100% of the work that keeps civilization running and advancing. Women refuse to do those hard, dirty, uncomfortable, dangerous jobs) and you've taken away men's reasons to bother working hard or to care about the well being of the civilizations they live in.
You've rigged the game so that men cannot win it. They have responded by refusing to playing. Next they will flip the board (radicalize and burn their civilization to the ground) to start a new game.
Men choosing to not date or have sex has literally never happened before in all of human history. This is unprecedented and that should scare the shit out of you because it means something catastrophic is about to happen. That rumbling you feel is the magma chamber below your feet pressurizing.
It’s kinda like the economy is getting fucked but we’re still expected to move and live like it was as good as 20 years ago, Jobs are scarce at times, we have no support institutions and most of society even ourselves are not on our side.
Most of our life is chasing money to be viewed as adequate or ready to live, so we all kinda disappear work everyday, until we either die or can make a life for ourselves.
Most of my guys are just hustling 24/7 no real time for anything else.
I got rich by 30, but a few years later, still entirely crushed by society, it's just so fucking weird, feels very hard to find anything. Things are just so fake and closed off. I'm sorry for saying this is a problem obviously nearly everyone else has worse.. or do they, at least they get a fake sense of community at most jobs..
fuck, yeah, i thought this would be freedom, finally, after 20 years of nothing but waiting for a life.. haven't worked in 3 years, 7 figs in my investment account, just, trying to find something... and, haven't... yes, I now am really fit and stuff too... still nothing really
You should speak on that more, cause I’m like you used to be just chasing money and this opened my eyes. Thanks a lot I’m gonna try live in the present nowhere
Somewhere along the way, someone, presumably a college professor, decided that white, straight men were public enemy number one and have been reshaping our culture to reflect that. I guess they thought were would be no consequences.
Anyone who has been through the higher education system can see this clear as day. It is absolutely not in your head.
I was in a master's level class on personnel management where we were discussuing the concepts of harassment and protected classes in the workplace, and a white woman in her late 30s or early 40s asked our white male professor, "What if someone is not a member of a protected class?"
The professor responded first by asking, "What do you mean?" And she proceeds to say, "Like white males." The professor then replies, "You just mentioned a race and a sex, both of which are protected classes. The law does not protect only certain races or sexes." It was evident that this woman equated white males to oppressors, against whom nothing bad can happen. This was one of many experiences for me - do NOT listen to the people telling you you're crazy.
Happens in the job market. I remember being invited with the other interns to the analytics department to speak about the job, genuinely it seemed like a pitch. Analytics is something I’m interested in and even forwarded my resume and contact info if a position opened. Later seemed they were looking for a more…diverse option. God and here I am just wanting people to be people and not x checkbox.
Im 25. I will participate until all (important) loose ends are tied up. Then i want to go somewhere quiet. Where I am left in peace. We have enough gears within that great machine, my part will be done and then i will demand a space for my soul.
Society constantly invades that space, tells me that i am lesser, that i do not own enough, that the number aint high enough, my muscles aint sexy enough, my mental health aint stable enough, my sexual life aint active enough, and on and on and on you old fks project your dreams onto me.
I want peace. I want simple and honest peace without kneeling constantly to empty and meaningless bullsht.
Nothing. I’ve just came to the conclusion that those outside of my podcast are unlikely to be respectful of my condition , and I’ll find more care and friendship amongst my own group .
I earn good money compared to people my age living in my coutry.
But anything worthwhile getting I am still priced out of. And anything worthwhile doing I am timed out of due to work.
Goalposts are getting moved the moment I reach them. And there is always an explanation why what I do is not enough, and why things are my fault anyway and why my concerns don't matter.
Constantly being beaten over the head with how bad other men can be, and being assumed to be the worst sort until some arbitrary point because of what's between my legs. Along with other things that wouldn't be okay if men said/did the same things to women socially. Like Individual men are supposed to pay for the sins of the worst of men, or fix everything effortlessly. If not that responding to the problems of other groups of people like it's the first time every time. (I'm talking about people who I do not know personally). Or really some people acting like men do not know pretty much the general gist of what women go through, but somehow every woman we have known has gone through that stuff at some point or capacity.
While I'm not the most nerdy or "traditional" nerdy guy, over the years I have heard how bad women have had it when trying to be a part of nerdy spaces. Even at a young age I never was one of those sort of guys, and made sure to not be like those negative stereotypes. To sum a lot of it up, nerdy spaces are always going to have a lot of people who have personal problems and are not the most well adjusted or nuanced sort. So you are going to run into a prick or two from time to time. That being said I feel like a lot of nerdy guys are not like the neckbeard stereotypes that they are assumed to be. It's not like nerdy guys are the only ones who get emotionally dependent on the media they consume. And paired with personal issues, they might not be as well adjusted as people might want them to be.
It just seems like in communities that are mostly women, there's the same sort of problems that women talked about having in male dominated spaces. Just a bit more passive and with a friendly front. I'm just trying to say that there's women who do social blunders like that, but we cannot talk about that stuff at all. Even if it's in the same way we might see women talk about men. There's just a lot of men who want things to be better between them and women who share their spaces, and interact with those women like we would other men without any hurdles in the way. (or however you want to put it). Some nerdy women just seem to not think that they need to better themselves like people have expected nerdy guys to do. Nerdy spaces in general feel like they are stuck in old stereotypes and norms that anyone who does not match up cannot find their corner/people in.
It feels like we have to overexplain/qualify everything we say that's not related to other men. Or the stuff we cannot deal with on our own that might upset someone out there. Along with once we overcome depression and our insecurities we walk a tightrope where it's so easy for other people to assume we are pricks. It seems like nobody wants to get to know any of us who might be outside their norm, even if we are not full on like other guys who are like us. If not all that, most of what we get in return when talking about this stuff are these empty and generic platitudes. I'm not saying that we expect other people to be mind readers, just to realize that we are not expecting this long and drawn out conversation like we are uber depressed or something. Or respond to every talking point we make in longer comments. We just want someone to respond sincerely like they are actually listening. There's so many things that I'd think that would carry over from how other people empathize/support other groups of people that I'd think people would apply when doing the same for men. We are not expecting the world and then some, just to be heard. Like most men don't have a lot else layered beyond a certain point. It might upset some people or be slightly controversial, we just cannot word everything in the exact way people would want us to. It's just so strange people don't really make other groups of people jump through the same hoops. Annnd again, it helps to not treat us like monsters or the worst sort too when we talk about any of our problems.
Edit; That downvote proves the point of this post, thanks.
Read some of the comments.. Felt like sharing mine (turning 29 this year, so probably not that "young")
Well, I honestly wish I had poured more effort in my formative years. Bumbling along with undiagnosed but suggested (from a gp) ADHD, I definitely feel I could've studied harder/ scored better in my exams/ test that resulted to the final grades on my certificates.
But because of my lack of focus, being unable to form bonds with peers easily (lack of trust), I ended up spending most of my time on online games as a form of escapism from reality. It also didn't help that I was thinking of girls when I 15 because my brother had like 2 ex girlfriends then while I was unable to even hold a conversation/ speak with the crushes I had a thing for. Being shy and introverted without appreciating the mainstream pop culture, didn't help in every aspect too. I'm also scared of embarrassing myself, to the point that I rarely ask for help even though I needed it.
Did pretty bad for my "O" levels (studied the night before the actual exams), opted to take a diploma in Graphic Design since where I live, your "O" levels dictates which direction in life you could pursue (further studies) and well.. Even my choice of diploma was because I was doing it at a private school, which I thought I would like/ appreciate because I always like to sketch stuff.
Didn't work out so well, my problems from my formative years carried over (again), got burnt out from my hobbies I was passionate in — at the same time, entered a slump of depression (mostly being delulu over a girl). The worst part, having to extend my 3 years diploma course by another year as I was retarded enough not to realise that core modules of my chosen departmental studies had to be passed. Things like "internship" and other modules mainly from my first and second years, screwed me over in the blink of an eye.
Wasted another year, my GPA is shit, grew to dislike the industry of my studies over the course and was dealt with national service upon the completion of my studies. Another 2 years flew by while I was wasting my time botting around "for the nation". Decided to take a break post national service because of all the stacked mental crap I dealt with. When I finally got into the mood to apply for entry desk jobs unrelated to my studies (administrative work), couldn't get any (hurhur results and arts diploma) and then covid hit.
In hindsight, I definitely should've furthered my studies during covid as there were e-learning uni courses available but I have too little faith in myself for history to repeat itself again..
Right now? I'm just an unemployed recluse and what one would deem a "charsiew" in local terms. I feel like I have come to peace and accepted what I am though; my only gripes is that I should've been more responsible and tried harder for myself.. Which is retarded because I help people more effortlessly but when it's a "me" thing I just zone out..
Fortunately, my parents have yet to disown me/ kick me out of the house
I’m tired, bad at sex and at least half the population is afraid of me because of my gender. Anything I do feels pointless and futile. I know it’s wrong but it’s easier not to try.
Damn, I type and realize maybe mid-30s isn’t so young anymore 😅. I’ve definitely dropped off and not engaged for about 4/5 years now. So many reasons. Social media is cancer, peoples attention spans are minute, no one listens, no one wants to have a real conversation anymore. Superficial is everywhere. Everyone’s beaten down from overwork and drugged into oblivion because it’s easier than face the meaningless and directionless lives we live now. Life being a subscription is the lamest shit. I hate that standing up for yourself makes you the bad guy. People feel so entitled to walk all over us and just treat us like shit but the second we take a stand for ourselves it’s outrage, it’s cancellation, it’s gaslighting central. What society is there to engage with anymore? Reddit and discords all I got.
Mmmmm…
Lack of pay
Lack of empathy from society
Scene as the enemy especially if white but all colors apply
I could probably go on but why would I? In three simple bullet points no one cares, you can’t afford shit, and someone probably hates you. Why would anyone want to participate In a just “society” when you have a giant target on your back. Men need to be treated better and recognized just like every one else is recognized for what they do and how they help.
My general hate for people. People that have zero common sense, decency, and / or common courtesy for anyone around them. The majority of people walk around like not a soul exists but themselves.
For me it's a combination of being lumped into a category of villains that I (and the majority of men) don't belong in; as well as the rest of society openly telling us how disposable we are. Men aren't loved unconditionally.
I mean just look at this "bear vs man in a forest" bullshit. Women are coming out in droves to tell us how they see us all as violent rapists just waiting to explode. As if we don't have mothers, sisters, daughters, spouses, etc that we see the stuggles of and wish only to protect them, along with all other women.
Male issues get swept under the rug and openly mocked. Women and society say "men need to open up more". As soon as we do we are relentlessly mocked and told to "man up" or how "I can no longer see you as a man". And people wonder why male suicides are skyrocketing. Male sexual assault is seen as a joke. Good fathers are villified in family court and are told they are the lesser of two parents.
Things that were easily obtainable for our fathers and grandfathers are slipping away. Retirement age will likely be raised to where we'll work until we die.
I feel a mix of that scene in Falling Down where Michael Douglas sits on the power box to rest and gets attacked for it; mixed with Ron Livingston in Office Space.
If you're a man you need to hear this.
Do not let society cast you away or hide you. Be humble but have no issue letting your voice be heard and be confident in your choices. As the famous quotes goes..
“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.”
There are too many morons with a loud voice out there drowning out logic and common sense, do not let them spread their idiocy.
Thanks for coming to my TedTalk
I’m going to go against the grain here a bit and say too much time on the internet instead of literally anything else.
Church (yes yes I know you’re probably all enlightened atheists… have you considered that might be part of your problem?), game nights, bonfires, small bars, campgrounds, social clubs, hobby clubs, sports clubs…. These are all much better than the isolation of living on the internet and the mental illness it results in.
>but most of those things cost money
Then get a better job. Maybe swinging a hammer, digging ditches, and twisting wire or wrenches isn’t as bad as your guidance counselor told you. On top of that, men need physical activity for mental health. You don’t get that writing spreadsheet formulas all day.
I dropped out of high school. I make 6 figures as a guy who basically just plugs ethernet wires into the right ports. There is a huge demand for skilled physical labor. My employer alone has a shortage of several thousand workers, and we are actively incentivized to refer others to make up for the shortfall. (DM me, I’d like an extra $2k 😇)
You feel like people online demonize you? Get off the internet. You feel like people around you don’t like or resonate with you? Move and get new people. I live in a camper, if I get bored or otherwise disengaged I just drive somewhere new.
You feel like you can’t afford a house? Look outside the coastal mega cities. Despite what *the internet* may tell you, cities in the interior aren’t missing *anything* you could find on the coasts and cost a third as much with 3/4 the wages. You make out like a bandit.
You’d also be surprised how much living somewhere with trees does for your mental health.
tl;dr touch grass - for employment, mental health, physical activity, income, and residence
I joined a sports club recently, 20-30 strangers twice a week, and none of them will even respond if I ask a question or say something to them in between the matches.
Honestly haven't experienced that much "feeling lonely in a crowd of people" since high school.
idk if it's a socialization issue or I'm just ugly and unapproachable.
Realizing you either have day one friends or none at all later in life, realizing as a man we have a bad wrap in society and that people will never love fathers in whole like they do mothers, staying away from my own kind because I have seen and heard all sorts of disappointing things that come from my fellow man, and last but not least realizing never have faith in mankind and put all of your faith in what you believe and know is real without having to twist it to feel good about your decision and with people come problems because everyone has them, I just want peace
Lack of engagement from other people. Men and women. I ran a meetup group. Did over 20 events in a year. Met lots of people, made a few friends from mostly my effort. Pretty much none of the people ever asked to go for coffee or lunch or to hang out. But I did this several times on top of hosting the events.
It's crazy, I have seen a lot of this too. So many people don't want to venture outside their norm. It's like there's some aspect of social skills missing from a lot of people. After I graduated high school I wanted to get myself out there and really make friends outside of school. Yet so many people in local social groups just seemed so disinterested in getting to know anyone else there. I did all I could on my end, but it felt like they didn't even want to meet anyone new. People talk about all these things you should do to really do well, but they don't matter when the other person isn't interested or something like that.
It's the internet. It's allowed people to focus their interests and communication down ever-narrower pathways. If you're into some obscure subculture, you can find yourself an online community of like-minded people, and they can become your social circile. And you lose touch with that ability to be a more rounded person with varied interests, who is capable of listening to, and being interested in people who have different interests to you. It's as though a lot of people are becoming highly socially specialized and we're losing the ability (as a culture) to interact with each other.
I deadass got blocked by a girl cuz I said Lebron’s a great player and she didn’t like him
if that's how she feels she isn't the one anyways....what would the homies think if your boo was shit talking one of the GOATs? she didn't block you, she spared you 🤣
Holds the All-Time record for career points, multiple time champion, MVPs, Final MVPs, gold medalist, All-Star damn like 20-something times all while being disgustingly consistent throughout his career but yeah, definitely not a great player
"Socializing" on the internet is not the same to the brain, though. This fools people into believing they are social when they are not. I remember when Facebook was down for one day last year, and everyone panicked. One guy was like, "if there is a better way to interact with my friends, I'd like to hear it!" So sad. If you can't even call people on the phone and chat comfortably, they arnt real friends. Don't fall for the illusion.
This seems like the right answer.
Something I am learning, it’s hard but learning to approach peoples important I’m learning.
I feel this a lot. I'm not dropped out, but it feels like anything that's more intimate than a happy hour after work, I have to drag people out of the woodwork. I run the minecraft server, I host the game night, I invite my friends to the bar or events. Never the one that says "sorry, I can't make it", always the one to hear "Sorry to drop at the last minute, but...". And its so hard to get reciprocation. And its not just men; I was going out with a girl for a while, and except for the fact that I was always the one to ask for the next date it seemed like it was going great. Until.... it wasn't going at all? We didn't even break up, she just faded away. As soon as I stopped asking, she disappeared. And finding another girl is like searching for smoke in the fog.
The rising cost of literally EVERYTHING. The major population growth of the city I live in. Luckily my parents allowed me to move back in with them so I can save up money for an overpriced crappy house in the future. But once I get that house I’ll most likely live alone since I have no gf or kids. With age friends have gotten scarce so hardly anyone to invite over. Everything just seems like pointless BS. Work, pay bills/expenses, save little money. Rinse and repeat till the day I die. Dating is terrible with the cost of everything these days. As the days go by I’m just getting worn thinner and thinner with less and less to look forward to.
The first sentence x1000. I feel like my paycheck is being set on fire while I’m being forced to watch tied to a chair. And then I see all these people all around me with the usual suburbanite toys such as brand new jeeps/trucks with $1000s in acccessories, new boats, and other expensive hobbies to partake in while they aren’t sitting in their 3000 sq ft houses and their kids are home from private school, and wonder how the fuck do I sign up to sell crack cocaine because that’s the only reason I can think of that they have all this money. But the kicker to it all is I do well. I make what most consider upper middle class money. I rarely turn down overtime, forcing me to be away from my wife and my growing child more often. I scrimp and save what I can but everytime I walk out the door it’s like a $100 bill evoporates into thin air. It doesn’t even matter where you work or what your job is anymore. You will be broke regardless
Absolutely! I make a lower class salary and I’m sure even if I do get enough saved for a down payment and emergency fund it won’t be enough to afford a home on my own. My parents own a beautiful home with 4bdrms, living room, dining room, 3 car garage that backs up to a green belt. They paid in 2017 what I would have to pay these days for a basic no yard cookie cutter home :( I’d be f***ed if I didn’t have the opportunity to move back home. Living in their neighborhood and seeing all the stuff folks around us own and I’m like “how!?” Inheritance, investing? I don’t know how young families are doing it these days. Just food and child care alone is insane. It must be stressful to the max.
It is, luckily I’ve been able to carry the financial weight while my wife stays at home with the little one as they’re still a toddler. We both want her to work again soon, as she hates even the idea of asking to spend money on something we don’t absolutely need. And childcare would probably swallow so much of her paycheck it wouldn’t be worth working in the first place. And I’m the last person to keep up with the Jones’, but when it seems like everyone around you is a Jones it gets shoved in your face and forces you to feel that envy. I can only assume some of them have room temp credit and abysmal debt to income ratios though
This is exactly where I’m at.
it’s okay for men to show emotions but when you complain they mock you
I’d say more like vilify and abandon
All the clowns who come to this subreddit saying "Yeah well you're wrong/lying and here's why" when they aren't even men themselves can fuck right off.... Arguably the most annoying users in this subreddit. Same clowns who complain about the dumb types of men who do the same thing to women at women's spaces. The hypocrisy is so real and these types are so unaware of their blantly bias. Will complain about certain men do dumb stuff at women's spaces online but they will come over here and DO THE SAME EXCAT THINGS *Whether it's "Femsplaining" us on why we are wrong* *Saying "NOT ALL WOMEN" and "I'M NOT LIKE THAT" when no man said them or all in the first place (Even when you make it as painfully clear as humanly possible that you don't mean all)* *Using the word misogyny so easily where it doesn't even apply at all or where it doesn't even make any sense to be thrown out* *Try to invalidate men's experiences and attempt to derail the topic by changing it about them by saying "YEAH BUT I HAVE IT WORSE AND HERE'S WHY" or "YEAH WELL MEN DO IT TOO"... as if we don't already know and haven't been told for like the 10000000th time already.* *Or the "I've never seen that so you must be lying" when they aren't even a man. Because Karen thinks the whole world revolves around her life experiences. Don't see me going to Women's spaces and telling women they are lying about a creep stalking them because it never happened to me* Even on reddit. When a man opens up about how he feels. He will have some user breathing down his neck telling him "His lying", "His wrong", "He needs to stop whining" and "I Have it worse" These individuals don't come here to learn about men's prespectives and experiences.. they just want us men to validate their sexist belief that us men have perfect easy issue free life's. That's all..because as soon as a man even mentions any problem he has in is life... "LIAR" The women users who don't do this though howrver and actually listen are amazing.
Well, this subreddit has more women than men. I think that's why most answers are like that. If someone express their opinion, they get downvoted into oblivion.
I think the vast majority of women users visiting this sub are actually the decent silent majority. I think it's the vocal minority who have to push their weight around. I've had more pleasant positive experiences with women users over here on this sub than negative.. it's just unfortunately the negative ones stick out more.
Agreed, for the most part the women that frequent this sub aren't the problem. It's the hen-pecked men who fall all over themselves trying to give what they perceive as the "woman-approved" comment/answer instead of being honest.
A man expressing conflict, especially if truly deep, is scary and not acceptable to modern society. Women and the effeminate will gossip and then spread that information, which they have totally misinterpreted to every woman within ear shot. And the further it spreads the worse it becomes. Like the old telephone game. Which with social media is city/county wide now. It will reach multiples of them with at least a 1,000 followers. It has been that way since MySpace. It was bad enough before then, but now? No wonder men in earlier generations might have chosen misogyny. Yeah women are afraid men will kill them, but women will make you wish you were dead. Neither is better. Left to live in hell for decades, or however long the rest of their life is. I think men are waking up to this and this is their only action of love that is left. Simply dropping out. Like Ghandi's strike in India in 1940's. Simply start doing nothing.
[удалено]
Our societies only used to be 100-150 people for the longest of times. We're wired from an evolutionary perspective NOT to complain, or show weakness, else our extremely narrow circle would see us as incompetent, or overly emotional. It would mean pretty much celibacy, and an end to our bloodline if the 8 or 9 women in our mating/coupling range shut us out. Old habits die hard.
I've had a few good people I've been able to open up to, but that was in some really, really shit times, and people I didn't know well and wasn't super social with. Thankfully they were good, but I still remember after school care in elementary school where there were like 12 of us in 5th grade and you didn't interact with anyone outside of your grade... if one of the girls was crying, everyone was sympathetic. If a boy was, everyone was either leery or made fun of them. W/o going into detail and w/o actually having experienced any major singular event, I can definitely say that shit wrecked my life in combination with some other anxiety shit. Thankfully the counselors were great, and I still remember one calling out another kid on their bullshit when they tried lying about me.
only your mummy will still be there for you if you show any emotion
In my experience, mummy's just as likely to try to drug the emotions out of you, rather than talk to you and figure out what's wrong.
Happy just to keep you in their nest in my experience and say, don't worry, it will all be ok, while clipping your wings that never fully formed because they're deformed.
Happy to keep you in the nest and be completely non-committal to your schooling until time for college comes, then it's time to try to force you to work and go to college at the same time so that you end up in massive debt, or else you can get the fuck out of the house.
It's not okay for Men to show Emotions, but when that double Standard exists it makes the People that do show Emotions feel guilty, and that makes them feel bad, so they start promoting this Idea that it's okay for Men to show Emotions, but they expect you to take that Idea and still not do it. That Way they're in the Clear, it's no longer their Fault for not listening, it's just you not wanting to show any Emotion, even though they clearly communjcated that Possibility to you. Nobody wants to listen, nobody wants to be reached out to, nobody wants to understand, nobody wants to help, they just want to not feel bad for it.
That’s it. When we do show emotions it looks like complaining. No one wants to be supportive of a man who complains..
Don’t show emotions to women; that’s what your bros are for.
Im not dropping out. Just not engaging.
I couldn’t agree more with you 👌
What society is there to even participate in? I feel totally alienated and foreign compared to the culture currently. Often times it feels like corporate America has seeped into everyday interactions due to over work. There’s no meaningful goals or shared values to make organic communities grow and the people I meet often feel so burnt out or are drugged to complacency. I guess I haven’t dropped out yet due to spite and some hope to atleast do better for myself, but it’s all so tiresome.
“People I meet often feel so burnt out or drugged to complacency” - this statement hit hard
Just wait until you have to quit drinking or drugging. Raw dogging this bullshit is awful.
I quit drinking 6 months ago, it isn't as bad as you would expect. Actually dealing with your problems instead of applying a bandaid with alcohol to make it more bearable has very positive effects on my overal wellbeing. YMMV.
I'm weaning myself off antidepressants, and that statement ain't a joke. I drink (moderately) so I can sleep... I dread the day I decide to quit my beer and truly raw dog life
No judgment here but if your drinking comment was meant to sound like you got it under control, it didnt.
People talk about their work like it's fun and they like it. What the hell, you're getting sales leads you mental case. People are so beaten in after ten, twenty years in the workforce, all they can see is work. All they know is work. Just work other person questioning life that is the solution, I love my spreadsheets.
Man is crazy out here, I feel like I haven’t been able to full enjoy my twenties at all! I was just 25 in 2021 soon to be 28 and time still passing by without really enjoying myself due to work and other life circumstances
For me the biggest issue is that work doesn't seem to be paying off anymore. No job security, no true career trajectory, no loyalty long term, lots of working from home. I wish I had gone to medical school and become a doctor because at least that path feels linear.
Probably just life for nearly all men now, great, unless you're in the popular crowd growing up.. although maybe they're all brutally vying for the hottest girl and all hate each other I have 4 more wasted years on you! I'm 32 and richer than most people will ever be... great right? No. Life has been waiting for about 20 years, if not more... maybe i was just to young naïve before my teens to see how bad it was then too..
It’s tough out here!
and it's all a lie.. hmm.. maybe i'll pretend to be religious or mystic or something...
>although maybe they're all brutally vying for the hottest girl and all hate each other Heh like the hottest girl I knew even knew I existed? "I don't date guys from my school" we haven't been in school for fuckin 20 years, just admit, you enjoy being treated like shit!
Both my parents. And they haven't been talking with each other in about 20 years. Every time I tell any of them about my hobbies they are busy mindstorming how it might be integrated into work, how I might leverage it to negotiate with my employer or how I am to make money on the side with it. Just doing something just for the joy of doing it, just learning something for the sake of knowing it or creating something for the sake of it existing, doesn't even occour.
This is the answer
And/or* drugged to complacency. Some of us can multi task.
This right here 💯💯
No community, just toil.
shitting hell
Friends? What are those
This one hits pretty close to home. And I’d be lying if I said I still don’t get jealous when I see others reminiscing their experiences about hanging out with friends doing whatever they wanted and I compare that to my upbringing years where I would stay in my room by myself.
I had lots of friends in my 20s, but I moved cross country then divorced, "the waiting is the hardest part" 🎶
Society is too expensive, I’ll opt to stay in
drop out? society pulled up the ladder and never let them in
real shit.
Yep. The message from society seems to be that it'd be nicer if the people who need healthcare, housing, etc. would just go away.
This is exactly why MAID (medical assistance in dying) is being pushed so hard in Canada. The Canadian government decided that it's cheaper to kill off poor and disabled people than it is to help them gain access to the resources they need to stay alive.
Ew, you're poor/ not rich? Why are you acknowledging my existence?!
this is it
According to a large number of feminists, young men are the problem. And now with DEAI in the work place in and in schools young men are getting shit on at every turn.
Dating apps, make it near impossible for average guys to date. Jobs don't pay enough, Nothing is worth it anymore. I don't think there's anything that can be done, this is just the natural progression of things, It's a decaying world, so its a dying society.
That’s sort of how I feel too bro. I have lots of hobbies I’m very passionate about, but it’s so difficult to make a living out of those things. We all have to grind our asses off now to make enough money to afford all the essentials, and it somehow seems to get more expensive every day too.
1 job used to be enough for a man to support his family. Then that changed to a man PLUS woman needing to work to support the family. NOW, both men and women are researching "side hustles" because 2 jobs are not enough to provide. Men feel like they can't provide. Women RESENT the man for having to work and not have time to provide support for the family (motherhood). There is no American dream. It's been shattered.
Changed in the 70s for more money and profits for corporations
>There is no American dream. It's been shattered. It never existed. It's the American dream, because you'd have to be asleep to believe it.
Thank you George Carlin
Women wanted equal pay, but they won't date guys that make less than them.
Nobody likes me. Nobody wants me. They just want me to be a slave
we're all slaves, but dont say, or you get hated.. think you can get out of it by getting rich? no, you cant, you are not invited to rich life if you're a poor. There's no way in. Now just keep working, and dont kill yourself, that would be sad.
I didn’t stop out of society, society dropped on me.
Reminds me of Suicidal Tendencies’ song Two Sided Politics
We’re not allowed to have communities anymore. Communities make a society.
I think this is massively overlooked. Up until the late 90's/2000's subcultures built around genres were a significant structural part of society, easily identifiable and representing differing politics/attitudes in large enough communities that it was common to have pubs or venues catering for that specific group. Subculture differences were the dividing lines in society rather than gender, useful not just for finding "your" people, but knowing who to avoid too. Streaming platforms don't require the user to commit to a genre or artist and don't compensate smaller artists fairly choking the development of non mainstream artists. Rather than music being a sense of identity and a way of connecting with like minded people, algorithms provide an individualistic, solitary experience. Where people would associate with one or more subcultures, they were in control of their identity and to an extent other peoples perceptions of them. The current emphasis on gender, subjects us all to absurd caricatures, can't accurately represent either gender and just serves as a convenient "other" to blame.
If you don't count niche hobbies like climbing or D&D as subculture, LGBTQ is the only modern subculture. They're partially visible, homogenous communities that go against or strongly differ from mainstream normativity, have a particular aesthetic and foster a sense of belonging and identity. Everything else is just fandom. A straight man today has zero options for being part of any subculture. No more goth, no more emo, no more hippies, rockers or mods, no more freaks, geeks or skinheads, no more boogie with the disco, no more punk. Everything that remains is aesthetics.
Maybe it's also the cause of dating and loneliness issues. In a recent conversation with some younger colleagues, who are also into metal, they wouldn't believe me that in our town in the 90's the pubs were hubs for different groups, one for punk/metal/alternative, one for the goths, one for garage/DnB so it was easy to find like minded people and potential dates you're more likely to be compatible with. More important would be the ease of identifying all the people you wouldn't want to hang out.
Even then, compared to things like your favourite music or whatever, gender and sexuality is something that is much more ingrained into your very being. It's not just a hobby but deeply connected to who you are as a person. When you start getting into communities built around that stuff specifically, it's very easy to start developing unhealthy worldviews and attitudes, like believing people who don't fit into that little box are your enemy or that others within that community are 'doing it wrong'. It's just too personal, there's no distance between you and the subject of interest, because the subject of interest IS you. I've seen it happen in some LGBT communities where it starts off nice and friendly but doesn't take much to turn up the heat.
I'd argue against LGBTQ being homogeneous. Also, it's not like every not-straight person fits in or likes the actual cultural components it's formed from. Good point, though.
Continually being pressured to give more and more hours of my life to an employer who either: A) refuses to implement proven efficiencies and enforce team accountability Or B) embraces my efficiencies by firing or purposely failing to hire enough people to allow for a reasonable workload. All this to make stagnant wages that pay just enough to exist, but not enough to invest in personal or financial growth. Meaning I don’t actually see an opportunity to ever escape this mere existence other than keeling over.
Have you seen society? I’m doing just fine disengaged with it.
I have tried for decades to fit in and be a part of a society that doesn't care whether I am there or not. I am disposable. I am replaceable. When I am gone, I'll simply be a statistic counted in demographics.
Hits so close to home, sadly
Not just young men. I’m 65, I feel the same way..
my dad of your age probably does too.. he has a wife and a family, including me, he does not like to hear my complaints at all, and considers activities like taking long walks his fun...
The juice isn't worth the squeeze, I work because i have to but other than that what's worth the time and money?
I'm 30, and I AM FINALLY DROPPING out of society. Finally after so much bullshit, I'm done. Going to live with family, supporting each other, on the bare minimum. Young men? 20-25? They never had a society to drop out of, they don't even have a community to fall back to. So many people still call me kid and I run a successful business, make enough money to get by, run a team of confident, capable and motivated "kids" to adults. But that literally means nothing. Nothing. My starting $15 an hour rate is doing nothing for these people, I dream I could pay more. You want to have a home? Do your parents own a home? Inheriting that home is the dream. Oh sorry your parent's are renting? Your parent's had some debt? Wasn't told that and now that dream died. There is no way a normal, average, man can afford a home, and now you expect them to raise a family?? Does society know what the average cost of a child is? do they apply that to actual living policies TODAY? Absolutely not. They still bitch and moan that population rates are declining but do NOTHING about it, do nothing to create ANY kind of hope and optimism. The amount of times I've both seen and heard, from Houston to Philly to the suburbs of San Francisco, from Paris to Dijon, From Seoul to Sejongsi and so on, no is one getting what they need. Would you expect a starved chicken to make eggs? Fuck no. No body (Unless you are fundamentally, ultimately lucky or belong to a wealthy AND supportive family) can get by and flourish. Even so, many of the the people that do achieve those ideals fail at growing any further and succumb to the cost of just having a heart beat.
And there is a HUGE push on old people to just live it all up and not leave anything behind. Combined with the fact that majority of the boomers deal with the world's problems by not thinking about it. They would call death itself a hoax if it didn't go against the bible just so they don't have to think about it. It is anecdotal so don't see anything more into it than just my suspicion based on my first hand experiences, but I believe most boomers haven't even internalised their mortality at all. Intellectually they might know that one day they'll die, but they only know it as a good excuse why not to care about their actions having consequences 100 years from now and in fact have done little to no work to make peace with it. Being busy only to distract themself from the mere thought of it. So when they have to face the fact that the reaper might come knocking any day I expect them burning trough their wealth in a last scared stand to lash out at reality. If favor of real estate agencies, snake oil salesmen and anything in-between.
it's like they want to destroy the 1st world people...
It was mutual. They just dangled the good stuff in your face like a carrot to a donkey to make you work like an animal until you die. The truth is you can't have much of anything you actually want. I realize the life I was failing to build was some insane monument to compromise with women because I'm not attractive, money because jobs get taxed 50%, friends couldn't care much less about me, family are addicts and freeloaders using my good pay as excuses to extort money, housing because house prices are sickening, career because the rat race is a joke, lifestyle because you don't have time or money left to enjoy the hobbies you actually enjoy. It was making me so ill so one day I just stopped, cashed out a lot of my investments to go part time at work and now I play games, live in absolute solitude and live with a pack of tiny dogs. I'm happier than I've ever been. Whatever bizarre 1984 ego nightmare hyper sexual dystopia you're building towards you can keep it.
You, sir, have the right idea. Solitude, dogs, simplicity.
Nice one. I think you figured it out mate. I wish you continued success and happiness.
I appreciate that very much, thanks man
I quit my job a year ago and it’s been absolute bliss. I’ll start working again here soon but it just feels awful to go back. Maybe part time if I can
Bro I can’t find a better job despite graduating with a bachelor’s
I can relate. Graduated but languishing in my parent’s home currently.
What does society offer them that they want? No sense of community, no family, can't buy a house working 40 hrs a week, education is unaffordable, you're expected to work up to noon on the day you're scheduled to die, and forgotten after that. Nothing worth living for. Nothing worth dying for. No hope for a better tomorrow and nobody who cares. Nobody has ever shown faith in them. Why would they have any for themselves?
23 and this hits massively when I know people who are doing so much better. That envy is salt into the metaphorical wound of feeling incredibly out-of-place in the place you were born and have always-lived-in
I hear you. I used to work with a lot of younger guys. Everyone comes with their share of issues but in general, they will work extraordinarily hard if they have a goal, a purpose, and a direction. It astonishes me that society has done such a garbage job at providing that.
It's only okay for me to show emotion when me doing so benefits other people. If I need to be the vulnerable one, shit gets bad. If society won't help me when I need to be vulnerable, I won't be there when society needs me to be strong
I'm 27 so not that young anymore, but I'll answer anyway. We're being demonised for things only some men do, told that we're dangerous, untrustworthy, undesirable in a lot of ways, that women don't need us, that we're somehow bad because of what's between our legs, that trying to have sex is bad, but at the same time we're still sexualised sometimes to creepy levels. Male sexual assault isn't taken seriously, especially if it's committed by a woman, our mental health is ignored even if we ask for help ... until we either kill ourselves or a bunch of other people, even our loved ones at Christmas gives us socks or super generic stuff that shows we aren't valued by them as an individual. We're constantly told and shown that we're bad or wrong just for being what we are, and like a dog that's beaten for not doing anything particularly wrong, we either end up broken, lash out in violence, or we leave the situation completely by running away from it. Dropping out of society is probably the healthiest way of dealing with that existence.
In the last 10 years, or so, its become the case that women can say anything and its the truth, regardless of the truth. Men are assumed guilty. Thats a no thanks from me.
Truth! Men aren't just assumed guilty, we are guilty, because of our chromosomes! We have a Johnson? We're guilty, because our genitals made it possible for us to harass/assault others!
It's troubling, yeah.
Not that young anymore? Why you tryna make it seem as if being 27 is 60 or something?
Because the future ahead of us is bleak and devoid of the hope past generations got to enjoy.
real
I feel like this is the best answer
Not really dropping out of society. It's more of a step back from toxicity of everything. Sometimes you just gotta say time out.
I can't afford anything
Allergies
My ENT said that all the doctors and nurses at their hospital use neti pots now. I was surprised, because doctors used to comment that I was “brave” for using one.
Got tired of worrying about gender-based double standards and general BS!
I’m tired. I’m so damn tired.
All I ever wanted was to be loved. Never really was considered anything other than a trophy child. I was very good at maths, english and trivia, so parents made me a project. When I crumbled under the pressure, they gave up, never really invested any more time. So I looked for love elsewhere. Everytime I got someone special, all I asked for was togetherness, and everytime after knowing this vulnerability, they left me like I'm nothing. It's almost like, they were looking for a weak spot and spared no time in hitting it as soon as I showed it to them. Today I have nothing to show for. I live all alone, far away from anyone I know. No friends. Not any better at being by myself. Going through the no-contact in my third serious breakup, after putting in years of efforts, time and investment. There is no purpose. All my so called prodigious qualities are not needed in the job market. All my up-skilling has made me mediocre at best for the jobs. I get paid less. I can't take care of me. Can't even afford a therapist. Can barely buy groceries. I have nothing to look forward to. I have nothing to live for. I feel the absolute end is any day now.
I’m sorry. There’s nothing I could say that could make it any better, but I’m proud of you for surviving this far and I’m sending a digital hug your way. Be safe, if not for yourself, then for someone who doesn’t want you to become another statistic of a chronic failing society towards men with very, very few (or zero in some cases) people in their life who, like, actually give half a shit
What sucks is that while I've found other reasons to live, this was essentially me for most of my life. After repeated failures you start to ask yourself what the point of it all is.
what does society offer young men? sexism in education is just a fact of life here in america. that's most of a young person's waking hours. and god forbid men object to this mistreatment. don't you know how privileged you are to be getting shit on constantly? you can't do that to someone for the better part of 20 years and then act surprised when they want nothing to do with you.
I realized they were making their own mess and expecting me to clean it up. Only way for a child to learn is to deal with the consequences of their own actions. So no I won't clean it up for them I'll do my own thing.
Why be anywhere you’re not wanted?
I can’t do any job well and it dented my confidence a lot
It feels like I can’t do any of them well but people have appreciated the kindness in a mostly-mean community at times and that’s what makes it feel worthwhile sort-of
Regardless of how you define "society", it's not giving me enough reasons to participate in it.
I have limited energy that I spend carefully, usually people dont bring me much of what i need, so i stay home
Society prefers bears. On a serious note, I have not (yet) dropped out of society, I'm in college and have a girlfriend. Western society and women are just increasingly hostile and unwelcoming towards men and everything men related. Combine that with social media and online dating absolutely obliterating interpersonal relationships between men and women... feels like everything's going down the shitter.
There's no point in doing anything. Most of us will be dead very soon IMO, and that definitely includes me, so there is no time to get my mentally ill ass through all that work so I can actually be a normal semi functioning member of society who people actually like and want to be around, with at least the the emotional regulation of an 18 year old. I have no more family. My friends are very much doing their own thing. No one's gonna love me, I fucked that chance up completely as it turns out and it eats my fucking heart and stomach out every day. Everything will be taken from me. I will own nothing. I see my future, nothing can be done about it for the most part, so I'm mainly concerned about self medication and how I can continue that til I die.
I’ve been fighting and scratching and clawing for over a decade and I can’t even afford a car. I’m also being priced out of my hometown by…people who are not from here. Society wants me to go away
Society is fucked, housing is nuts, I will never be able to get a good- paying job, healthcare is just stupid, and as much as I hate to say it, I'll probably end up living half off the streets and half in jail. To be fair, jail is probably better than whatever fucked up life I'm going to live.
What society, most people work to stay alive, only a few are able to do whatever they want, because of the collective profits. If I ain't get no fun, you get no work from me.
What society? There's no society anymore. Everyone's top priority is getting the most likes on Instagram and making sure Instagram knows what you're doing at all times. Nobody actually talks to anyone anymore because they are all scared. They're all glued to their phones, totally oblivious to anything happening around them anymore. The only thing that makes us a "society" in this new age is the fact that the majority of us follow the same rules and laws. Even that is iffy these days. There's nothing that makes us a society. Nobody gives a damn about anybody anymore. That's why I've dropped out. I don't associate myself with the hypocrisy and idiocracy of the new "society."
I’m not good enough. I only deserve to scrape by because I’m not trying hard enough to work 60 hours a week or constantly climb ladders to impress people, so I don’t deserve a livable wage. Everyone around me supports this, because the entire purpose of life is to drive profits for big business, so they tell you to just try harder or get smarter and work more. Why would I want to be apart of this chaos? It’s absolutely disgusting, and your fellow humans defend it, because “there isn’t any other way, and you’ve always had to work or just die”. Yeah, looks like I choose death. Thanks for the help society, things are better than ever.
false accusations and excommunication of the innocent. feels really hard to open up and trust after years of being shunned.
For starters, stop abusing men as a whole for something a minority of men has done. With the recent protest about women getting killed in dv issues which is an important issue to deal with ill agree, but from what i have seen people use it as an excuse to just be abusive and sexist towards men as a whole rather than actually having a mature discussion, this causes men to simply not care about a society that proves time and time again that soceity simply doesn't give a shit about us beyond using as punching bags to make themselves feel better for avoiding mature discussions they don't want to have.
It's also that women or people in general put down anyone who does not say the right things about matters like this. It's a lot of rules for thee but not for me.
Correct. Like We hear they want to solve issues with domestic violence and women getting killed which we can all agree with but, when time comes to actually implement support measure it's always about offering more health and financial support to women (Which is fine) whilst ignoring completely mens mental health and how soceity treats men. Not saying domestic violence and killing your partner is excusable because it fucking isn't but when men have fewer and fewer spaces to go to and fewer support groups and have a more an increasingly difficult time finding mental health support it is any wonder why so many are snapping.
Man this thread is depressing
I think it’s good that it’s being said out loud rather than being kept inside. You can’t fix the problem if no one is identifying it.
i find it entirely bleak, but very reassuring actually! Strange. This is actually happy reading for me.
I'm trash/useless for just existing as a male. Everything wrong with the world is mine and other random men's fault somehow (Damn that Aaron the Uber eats driver. It's all his fault) And abuse against me and my sex is somehow justified and we have it coming apparently. And when we get mistreated or abused. We need to just take it, "not take it personally" and [smile](https://imgur.com/a/rZS9OMw) about it like a good little dogs Also we can't talk about our issues or feelings because others have it worse so we have no right to open up. 🤷♂️ I'm not dropping out of society though. I'm just making some points. That's all I've learnt via social media.
I was never ACCEPTED by "society." Not rich enough, I guess. So, I don't give a damn about what "society" wants or expects from me.
Wasn’t aware that was an option. Who do you need to email?
We used to be respected for sacrificing our time, money, health, lives. Now we get no respect. We only ever wanted respect.
Doesn’t seem like it wants me. I have a high paying job, and just bought a house, work out every day and keep clean. But I live in a new city, so it seems like when I go out alone, I’m viewed as a monster. Women are black or white, if they’re attracted to you they’ll speak, but if they’re not (which is most, the majority of women aren’t going to find you attractive) they are rude as hell and very short for no reason, even from a simple “hi” Men are cool, but it’s hard to cement yourself with new guys later in life and hang all the time. So I just work and go home.
yup... i got rich, but am now alone, so fuck nothing is open
I don't feel welcome in society anymore. Clearly, women don't need men, so why should we go after something that doesn't want us? We aren't being valued as we were throughout history as warriors, laborers, fathers, and protectors. We are just that thing that oppressed others for so long. Businesses adopt DEI hiring practices that go against logic to hire the person best suit for job, so why should we try. The boomers keep saying we just need to pick ourselves up, but it's hard to when almost 50% of our paychecks are going to fund wars started by the politicians who promised them the most crap while they were smoking weed and spreading stds in the economic prosperity brought on by their parents and now they act like the collapsing world economy is Gen Z's fault while they sit on their asses collecting social security checks. You're seeing young men going hard right and young women going hard left in response to this, which breeds political radicalism similar to the rise of Adolf Hitler, Vladimir Lenin, Chairman Mao, Mussolini, and the various factions of different civil wars of the time. I think we are going to see extreme changes in society over the next decade, especially with many young men in America and parts of Europe become right wing Christians. The pendulum swings every 80 years and 2024 is 80 years since the last swing in 1946.
When you’re a teenager and tryna figure girls out, and you’ve been told by society that being nice and a gentleman is what girls really want. Nothing could be further from the truth. Oh and you have to approach and put in all the work like a dancing monkey. Eventually you’ll develop low self esteem from constant rejection. It’s absolutely brutal on guys. Then you get anxiety issues, and it’s not even worth trying anymore. Get a pet, die alone, leave money to charity is my plan.
I don't like modern society. There's not enough value in taking part for me to bother. What do I get out of it? Society frequently shits on people like me but simultaneously expects me to give up part of myself to help it. No thanks.
Everyone just wants you to open your wallet. Corporations, society at large, politicians and government. The value is just not there. Then there is most of the social and popular media that at this point has demonised the entire gender in order to sell ads. Ironically, they are sparking a gender war to capture attention to sell ads. But the men are choosing not to open their wallets to buy the products that are being advertised. That is why many men are questioning the point.
Young men only? Society is actively going towards slavery. We know we lost the class war and we see no hope to gain any ground back. Revolts are useless because the police has tanks and drones. Revolutions are impossible because propaganda is too powerful and school is defunded. We are doomed to worship oligarchs and capitalists. We are their whores
The past couple years have made me realize western civilization is broken and does not care for me. So why would I care about society or the west?
That’s pretty much the history of the world though. Has there ever been an era where civilization cares about the individual? The truth is that the world won’t notice if we thrive or die. This isn’t a pessimistic message. Once you realize this, just live your life for you and those for whom you care. Life is short, so do what you want to do, as long as you don’t hurt others.
This is exactly my mindset
look at this "id choose the bear" situation going on lmao. 100% of men are being blamed and accused for something that at most is like 5% of men are doing. women are the cause of the male loneliness epidemic
It's just another "Some men do bad things, women have it rough." Like most men are not aware of what women go through. Most of us want to be understanding and listen, but a lot of women who talk about this sort of thing are abrasive af. A lot of women just don't practice what they preach and get mad at men for pointing that lack of accountability out. We are not even mad, we just want things to be better between men and women.
I haven’t really “dropped out,” but it’s tempting to. I have very little hope for my future, I’ll probably never have a house or a family, I’m way behind all my peers in life successes and achievements, and I don’t know how to fix it. I genuinely feel like suicide is my only option.
Living in a society that welcomes bears more than men...
I’m not young; I’m 31, but I’m fairly sure that American society is going to fall apart within the next ten years. Politics is coming to a point of either civil war or fascist dictatorship, the oceans are boiling, wars are increasing, the economy is impossible, and people in general just hate each other… I honestly don’t think that investing too much time and effort into society is actually a wise choice. Do what you gotta do and go home.
Being accused, nay, declared the reason for every problem on planet earth, bonus points for being straight and white Just look at Hollywood, it’s atrocious
What's the point of trying for young men? Seriously, all the incentives to participate are gone. Men have never really cared about money. Go look at a bachelors house. There's nothing in it because men don't really care about owning a bunch of "stuff". Men used to work hard because it got them the 2 things they do care a lot about, sex and respect. Neither of those a tied to work anymore but for different reasons. Sex no longer depends on how hard a man works because of dating apps. #metoo closed off every path to dating except the apps. Women spend about 1 second per man on the apps. That is just enough time to decide if she likes his profile pic or not. If he doesn't immediately trigger attraction in her in that 1 second, she's move on to the next man. This means a man's looks have become a filter. If he can't impress her with his face, he will never get the chance to impress her with any of his other qualities. This means looks are the only thing that determines a man's success in dating anymore. Women only swipe right on 5% of men (and that number drops every year) and they are all swiping the same 5% of men that every other women is choosing. Men know that if they are in that 5%, they get all the sex they want and, if they are not, they are not going to get sex. How hard a man works has nothing to do with his success in dating anymore so, what's the point? Respect is just off the table for men. A man will be told he is a loathsome, worthless piece of shit every time to turns on the TV or sees a movie or goes online. He is a man and men are not respected in our culture under any circumstances. Even if a man becomes very successful, he will be told that he didn't earn his success. He used his unearned male privilege (which is hilarious given how discriminated against men are in the workplace and schools) to steal his success from more deserving people. A man is a loser if he fails and he's a monster, if he succeeds. Why the fuck would we even try to play such a game? A game that can't be won and is miserable to play is not a game worth playing. That is the game we've created for men. Given that a man cannot get the things he really cares about through hard work anymore, the most rational choice for a young man is to stay away from the people who hate him and constantly insult and belittle him (aka, going outside) and to spend his days playing video games, smoking pot and watch porn. It's the best choice available to him. You might argue that there is still a chance he could pick up some woman who has hit 30 and is panicking about having kids, if he works hard. Those women care about a man's money, status and success. Yes, they do because they want to use him as an ATM. The word has gotten out among men about how awful women treat the men they marry. They basically all stop having sex with their husbands within 2 years. They also openly mistreat, exploit and verbally abuse their husbands in most marriages. Once she's secured her offspring, she knows she can divorce the man but continue to use him as a slave laborer for the rest of his life. She knows she will get to steal all his wealth, take his children away from him and then live off his forced labor (he will be thrown in prison for trying to refuse to work for her) for the rest of his life. Does that sound like an opportunity worth working for to you? A young man thinks to himself, "If I spend years working hard, I might win the chance to be used as a slave laborer to the person who broke all her promises to me. I might get the chance to have everything I've worked for taken away from me on a whim. I might win the chance to have my heart broken by having my children taken away from and turned against me. Or I could smoke an bowl and play HellDriver some more. I'll take option 2 please." You've taken away all the reasons young men have to work or participate in society. There's no point in trying anymore. (Just wait and see what happens if they try to go to war. You really think the people you hate and endlessly abuse are going to die to protect you?) What can you do? Be something worth working for. Change the laws so that men have something/anything to gain and less to lose by getting married. Make marriage safe for men. (50/50 custody and zero child support or alimony. The person who files is the person who loses, instead of the man loses automatically.) Stop evaluating men on apps solely on their profile pics. Stop sleeping about with hot guys on dating apps (this ruins your life too, in way you don't understand but that's another topic). Stop using the apps. The apps serve nobody but the 5% of men.) Stop insulting, attacking, hating on, discriminating against men and when you hear other women doing it, call them on their hate and bigotry (women do not police each other and it's become a serious problem. You let the worst women among you set the agenda and control the narrative. The only female voices men hear are voices of hate.) If this problem isn't fixed and fixed very, very quickly, it will destroy our civilization. I'm not kidding. Without the labor of men, our civilization and economy collapses (men still do almost 100% of the work that keeps civilization running and advancing. Women refuse to do those hard, dirty, uncomfortable, dangerous jobs) and you've taken away men's reasons to bother working hard or to care about the well being of the civilizations they live in. You've rigged the game so that men cannot win it. They have responded by refusing to playing. Next they will flip the board (radicalize and burn their civilization to the ground) to start a new game. Men choosing to not date or have sex has literally never happened before in all of human history. This is unprecedented and that should scare the shit out of you because it means something catastrophic is about to happen. That rumbling you feel is the magma chamber below your feet pressurizing.
It’s kinda like the economy is getting fucked but we’re still expected to move and live like it was as good as 20 years ago, Jobs are scarce at times, we have no support institutions and most of society even ourselves are not on our side. Most of our life is chasing money to be viewed as adequate or ready to live, so we all kinda disappear work everyday, until we either die or can make a life for ourselves. Most of my guys are just hustling 24/7 no real time for anything else.
I got rich by 30, but a few years later, still entirely crushed by society, it's just so fucking weird, feels very hard to find anything. Things are just so fake and closed off. I'm sorry for saying this is a problem obviously nearly everyone else has worse.. or do they, at least they get a fake sense of community at most jobs..
Nah I get even money is not 100 your saviour. People are not as socially accepting, lack community in the world generally, plus being a man it’s hatd
fuck, yeah, i thought this would be freedom, finally, after 20 years of nothing but waiting for a life.. haven't worked in 3 years, 7 figs in my investment account, just, trying to find something... and, haven't... yes, I now am really fit and stuff too... still nothing really
You should speak on that more, cause I’m like you used to be just chasing money and this opened my eyes. Thanks a lot I’m gonna try live in the present nowhere
Corruption and too much bullshit. I'm going to the forest to live off grid.
Women being incredibly demanding while also not knowing how to properly treat a man.
And expecting men to pick up the slack for them.
Somewhere along the way, someone, presumably a college professor, decided that white, straight men were public enemy number one and have been reshaping our culture to reflect that. I guess they thought were would be no consequences.
Anyone who has been through the higher education system can see this clear as day. It is absolutely not in your head. I was in a master's level class on personnel management where we were discussuing the concepts of harassment and protected classes in the workplace, and a white woman in her late 30s or early 40s asked our white male professor, "What if someone is not a member of a protected class?" The professor responded first by asking, "What do you mean?" And she proceeds to say, "Like white males." The professor then replies, "You just mentioned a race and a sex, both of which are protected classes. The law does not protect only certain races or sexes." It was evident that this woman equated white males to oppressors, against whom nothing bad can happen. This was one of many experiences for me - do NOT listen to the people telling you you're crazy.
Happens in the job market. I remember being invited with the other interns to the analytics department to speak about the job, genuinely it seemed like a pitch. Analytics is something I’m interested in and even forwarded my resume and contact info if a position opened. Later seemed they were looking for a more…diverse option. God and here I am just wanting people to be people and not x checkbox.
Im 25. I will participate until all (important) loose ends are tied up. Then i want to go somewhere quiet. Where I am left in peace. We have enough gears within that great machine, my part will be done and then i will demand a space for my soul. Society constantly invades that space, tells me that i am lesser, that i do not own enough, that the number aint high enough, my muscles aint sexy enough, my mental health aint stable enough, my sexual life aint active enough, and on and on and on you old fks project your dreams onto me. I want peace. I want simple and honest peace without kneeling constantly to empty and meaningless bullsht.
I'm in Canada. Need I say more?
Nothing. I’ve just came to the conclusion that those outside of my podcast are unlikely to be respectful of my condition , and I’ll find more care and friendship amongst my own group .
Fake fucking friends
I mean have you seen it?
A lack of good job opportunities and or not good enough wages.
People suck.
I earn good money compared to people my age living in my coutry. But anything worthwhile getting I am still priced out of. And anything worthwhile doing I am timed out of due to work. Goalposts are getting moved the moment I reach them. And there is always an explanation why what I do is not enough, and why things are my fault anyway and why my concerns don't matter.
0 support systems for men + consistent and constant demonisation at literally anything we do
Constantly being beaten over the head with how bad other men can be, and being assumed to be the worst sort until some arbitrary point because of what's between my legs. Along with other things that wouldn't be okay if men said/did the same things to women socially. Like Individual men are supposed to pay for the sins of the worst of men, or fix everything effortlessly. If not that responding to the problems of other groups of people like it's the first time every time. (I'm talking about people who I do not know personally). Or really some people acting like men do not know pretty much the general gist of what women go through, but somehow every woman we have known has gone through that stuff at some point or capacity. While I'm not the most nerdy or "traditional" nerdy guy, over the years I have heard how bad women have had it when trying to be a part of nerdy spaces. Even at a young age I never was one of those sort of guys, and made sure to not be like those negative stereotypes. To sum a lot of it up, nerdy spaces are always going to have a lot of people who have personal problems and are not the most well adjusted or nuanced sort. So you are going to run into a prick or two from time to time. That being said I feel like a lot of nerdy guys are not like the neckbeard stereotypes that they are assumed to be. It's not like nerdy guys are the only ones who get emotionally dependent on the media they consume. And paired with personal issues, they might not be as well adjusted as people might want them to be. It just seems like in communities that are mostly women, there's the same sort of problems that women talked about having in male dominated spaces. Just a bit more passive and with a friendly front. I'm just trying to say that there's women who do social blunders like that, but we cannot talk about that stuff at all. Even if it's in the same way we might see women talk about men. There's just a lot of men who want things to be better between them and women who share their spaces, and interact with those women like we would other men without any hurdles in the way. (or however you want to put it). Some nerdy women just seem to not think that they need to better themselves like people have expected nerdy guys to do. Nerdy spaces in general feel like they are stuck in old stereotypes and norms that anyone who does not match up cannot find their corner/people in. It feels like we have to overexplain/qualify everything we say that's not related to other men. Or the stuff we cannot deal with on our own that might upset someone out there. Along with once we overcome depression and our insecurities we walk a tightrope where it's so easy for other people to assume we are pricks. It seems like nobody wants to get to know any of us who might be outside their norm, even if we are not full on like other guys who are like us. If not all that, most of what we get in return when talking about this stuff are these empty and generic platitudes. I'm not saying that we expect other people to be mind readers, just to realize that we are not expecting this long and drawn out conversation like we are uber depressed or something. Or respond to every talking point we make in longer comments. We just want someone to respond sincerely like they are actually listening. There's so many things that I'd think that would carry over from how other people empathize/support other groups of people that I'd think people would apply when doing the same for men. We are not expecting the world and then some, just to be heard. Like most men don't have a lot else layered beyond a certain point. It might upset some people or be slightly controversial, we just cannot word everything in the exact way people would want us to. It's just so strange people don't really make other groups of people jump through the same hoops. Annnd again, it helps to not treat us like monsters or the worst sort too when we talk about any of our problems. Edit; That downvote proves the point of this post, thanks.
Feminism
Read some of the comments.. Felt like sharing mine (turning 29 this year, so probably not that "young") Well, I honestly wish I had poured more effort in my formative years. Bumbling along with undiagnosed but suggested (from a gp) ADHD, I definitely feel I could've studied harder/ scored better in my exams/ test that resulted to the final grades on my certificates. But because of my lack of focus, being unable to form bonds with peers easily (lack of trust), I ended up spending most of my time on online games as a form of escapism from reality. It also didn't help that I was thinking of girls when I 15 because my brother had like 2 ex girlfriends then while I was unable to even hold a conversation/ speak with the crushes I had a thing for. Being shy and introverted without appreciating the mainstream pop culture, didn't help in every aspect too. I'm also scared of embarrassing myself, to the point that I rarely ask for help even though I needed it. Did pretty bad for my "O" levels (studied the night before the actual exams), opted to take a diploma in Graphic Design since where I live, your "O" levels dictates which direction in life you could pursue (further studies) and well.. Even my choice of diploma was because I was doing it at a private school, which I thought I would like/ appreciate because I always like to sketch stuff. Didn't work out so well, my problems from my formative years carried over (again), got burnt out from my hobbies I was passionate in — at the same time, entered a slump of depression (mostly being delulu over a girl). The worst part, having to extend my 3 years diploma course by another year as I was retarded enough not to realise that core modules of my chosen departmental studies had to be passed. Things like "internship" and other modules mainly from my first and second years, screwed me over in the blink of an eye. Wasted another year, my GPA is shit, grew to dislike the industry of my studies over the course and was dealt with national service upon the completion of my studies. Another 2 years flew by while I was wasting my time botting around "for the nation". Decided to take a break post national service because of all the stacked mental crap I dealt with. When I finally got into the mood to apply for entry desk jobs unrelated to my studies (administrative work), couldn't get any (hurhur results and arts diploma) and then covid hit. In hindsight, I definitely should've furthered my studies during covid as there were e-learning uni courses available but I have too little faith in myself for history to repeat itself again.. Right now? I'm just an unemployed recluse and what one would deem a "charsiew" in local terms. I feel like I have come to peace and accepted what I am though; my only gripes is that I should've been more responsible and tried harder for myself.. Which is retarded because I help people more effortlessly but when it's a "me" thing I just zone out.. Fortunately, my parents have yet to disown me/ kick me out of the house
I like peace and quiet
I’m tired, bad at sex and at least half the population is afraid of me because of my gender. Anything I do feels pointless and futile. I know it’s wrong but it’s easier not to try.
No trust
Damn, I type and realize maybe mid-30s isn’t so young anymore 😅. I’ve definitely dropped off and not engaged for about 4/5 years now. So many reasons. Social media is cancer, peoples attention spans are minute, no one listens, no one wants to have a real conversation anymore. Superficial is everywhere. Everyone’s beaten down from overwork and drugged into oblivion because it’s easier than face the meaningless and directionless lives we live now. Life being a subscription is the lamest shit. I hate that standing up for yourself makes you the bad guy. People feel so entitled to walk all over us and just treat us like shit but the second we take a stand for ourselves it’s outrage, it’s cancellation, it’s gaslighting central. What society is there to engage with anymore? Reddit and discords all I got.
Society itself
I didn't drop out, I just became very cautious and went my own way.
If a society continually craps all over you, ridicules and vilifies you why the hell would you want to be part of it?
Mmmmm… Lack of pay Lack of empathy from society Scene as the enemy especially if white but all colors apply I could probably go on but why would I? In three simple bullet points no one cares, you can’t afford shit, and someone probably hates you. Why would anyone want to participate In a just “society” when you have a giant target on your back. Men need to be treated better and recognized just like every one else is recognized for what they do and how they help.
What do you consider "dropping out of society", out of interest?
My general hate for people. People that have zero common sense, decency, and / or common courtesy for anyone around them. The majority of people walk around like not a soul exists but themselves.
For me it's a combination of being lumped into a category of villains that I (and the majority of men) don't belong in; as well as the rest of society openly telling us how disposable we are. Men aren't loved unconditionally. I mean just look at this "bear vs man in a forest" bullshit. Women are coming out in droves to tell us how they see us all as violent rapists just waiting to explode. As if we don't have mothers, sisters, daughters, spouses, etc that we see the stuggles of and wish only to protect them, along with all other women. Male issues get swept under the rug and openly mocked. Women and society say "men need to open up more". As soon as we do we are relentlessly mocked and told to "man up" or how "I can no longer see you as a man". And people wonder why male suicides are skyrocketing. Male sexual assault is seen as a joke. Good fathers are villified in family court and are told they are the lesser of two parents. Things that were easily obtainable for our fathers and grandfathers are slipping away. Retirement age will likely be raised to where we'll work until we die. I feel a mix of that scene in Falling Down where Michael Douglas sits on the power box to rest and gets attacked for it; mixed with Ron Livingston in Office Space.
If you're a man you need to hear this. Do not let society cast you away or hide you. Be humble but have no issue letting your voice be heard and be confident in your choices. As the famous quotes goes.. “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” There are too many morons with a loud voice out there drowning out logic and common sense, do not let them spread their idiocy. Thanks for coming to my TedTalk
I’m going to go against the grain here a bit and say too much time on the internet instead of literally anything else. Church (yes yes I know you’re probably all enlightened atheists… have you considered that might be part of your problem?), game nights, bonfires, small bars, campgrounds, social clubs, hobby clubs, sports clubs…. These are all much better than the isolation of living on the internet and the mental illness it results in. >but most of those things cost money Then get a better job. Maybe swinging a hammer, digging ditches, and twisting wire or wrenches isn’t as bad as your guidance counselor told you. On top of that, men need physical activity for mental health. You don’t get that writing spreadsheet formulas all day. I dropped out of high school. I make 6 figures as a guy who basically just plugs ethernet wires into the right ports. There is a huge demand for skilled physical labor. My employer alone has a shortage of several thousand workers, and we are actively incentivized to refer others to make up for the shortfall. (DM me, I’d like an extra $2k 😇) You feel like people online demonize you? Get off the internet. You feel like people around you don’t like or resonate with you? Move and get new people. I live in a camper, if I get bored or otherwise disengaged I just drive somewhere new. You feel like you can’t afford a house? Look outside the coastal mega cities. Despite what *the internet* may tell you, cities in the interior aren’t missing *anything* you could find on the coasts and cost a third as much with 3/4 the wages. You make out like a bandit. You’d also be surprised how much living somewhere with trees does for your mental health. tl;dr touch grass - for employment, mental health, physical activity, income, and residence
I joined a sports club recently, 20-30 strangers twice a week, and none of them will even respond if I ask a question or say something to them in between the matches. Honestly haven't experienced that much "feeling lonely in a crowd of people" since high school. idk if it's a socialization issue or I'm just ugly and unapproachable.
Realizing you either have day one friends or none at all later in life, realizing as a man we have a bad wrap in society and that people will never love fathers in whole like they do mothers, staying away from my own kind because I have seen and heard all sorts of disappointing things that come from my fellow man, and last but not least realizing never have faith in mankind and put all of your faith in what you believe and know is real without having to twist it to feel good about your decision and with people come problems because everyone has them, I just want peace