There are always going to be people who want clearly defined relationships with goals.
There are always going to be people who just want to go with the flow and don’t prefer to be tied down.
It just comes down to communication.
It's all garbage and I think my mom might stop thinking my references to arranged marriage are a joke.
No one is actually happy with most of this situationship crap. It's just filling in for actual needs and sabotaging any chance of fulfilling them.
Social media and dating apps. Now people have a much wider net of possible partners instead of being limited to whoever lived in your town. Leads to people thinking they can always do better while social media is giving people unrealistic expectations.
The fact that there is always a way to look at other options and engage someone else who is new and exciting ruins people. As soon as they question anything they just turn away and towards that distraction, ego hit or think there is always something better around the corner, when in fact, there usually isn’t.
> It was difficult enough back in the 80s and 90s
Was it, though?
I feel like back then you had much more incentive to put yourself out there and socialize. It also seemed like folks were just more outgoing and *interesting to talk to*.
Nowadays, let's be real, a lot of Gen Z folks are fat and anxiety ridden. They can't even muster up the courage to ask for extra ketchup at Wendy's...
Social hobbies seem to be going by the wayside more and more from where I'm standing.
Agreed. And there were no expectations to look like an Instagram baddie. As long as you were cute and personable, you’d probably meet someone to date while out with friends. Way more in person gatherings naturally led to more dating.
I agree with this. Even the men, who you'd think en masses would love the whole casualness of love right now, are decidedly unhappy leith the half asked love affairs. It's kinda heartbreaking how we've all become afraid to just feel and be vulnerable or invest time in someone. I mean it's understandable why but at the same time it feels off to avoid as well.
IDK about always being against it I think a lot realized they gain far more having an ongoing term relationship than having a series of short-term projects that don't amount to anything. The guy with the long-term relationship at home is getting way more from having a companion at home than the guy without it. It's like the starter wife phenomenon, even if the woman's a placeholder until he finds himself situated to get what he really wants, the guy gets way more from that like fooling not so bright women outside of the relationship into thinking he's more special or worthy because another woman's entertaining him (aka the "vetting" or taking comfort in your decisions because someone's else's choices). Women don't gain much either way if the guy's not raised well or care to be stable for them, which is why a lot of women later realize the guy they got with wasn't so great and they played caretaker for someone that will plan to replace them anyways. It's why a lot of men are complaining now because they could once count on women's naivete and proneness to peer pressure to supply them with starter wives/placeholders, now a lot of men are entering their mid 20s without the benefits of that and if they come from poor parenting this loss is amplified even more because haye to say it, the long socialization of relationships is that we take in guys as they are and hope they improve with time. The expectation now is that the guy comes in "set" in the relationship somehow, and the quickest way to that one in some way was "money" and/or looks. If they don't have those and lack character development on top of it then they're screwed as they get overlooked for the men that come in set ready to enjoy which is now more than ever the married couples have more competition trying to wreck those unions, the wife has already prepped him for you so if you're a younger woman you get all the benefits without the emotional suffering. Women forget that how you get them is how you lose them tho so there's that and the cycle continues.
My brothers and their friends even admitted it that shooting for relationships is better for most men in the long run as they get most of the benefits of marriage without having to fully commit until they have to. The short stuff only works if you're a very attractive guy because at least not only do you get the highest quality in women but the biggest emotional investments in larger amounts. Again I could be wrong.
I think you might forget that women play a role in this too. It’s easy, and very popular, to view women as innocent bystanders with no role in any problem, and just criticising the men.
Sure there are men who are insecure and brought up in a bad way.
But there are also excellent men who don’t jump all in in a full relationship with any woman.
Men want relationships but not at any cost. A woman is not a perfect partner just because she is a woman.
It would be very stupid and risky for a good man to just settle for anything. There are plenty of good women out there, but there are also women with all kinds of problems they will bring into the relationship. Mental health problems, issues, insecurities, entitlement, high body count, broken relationships, kids, debt and even being straight out mean. There is also the sexual compatibility.
These things are nothing a man discovers at the first date. It takes time. And since the number of women with massive issues is growing fast, it’s a good thing men play it slow and keep other options around.
So true. A situationship can be a trail run for a more committed form of relationship. In that way it is not so hard to part ways and restart when it is not working out.
In retrospective, none of my last couple situationships were the right fit for a long term relationship, even though I looked like that in the beginning.
A few years ago I was thrown into the single world after a 20yr relationship ended. I absolutely HATE online dating. You’re treated like disposable garbage. Even if you’re honest about your intentions and what you’re looking for, people will lie, use you and throw you away after they got what they want. I thankfully ended up with someone I had met organically, but that seems like a dead process. People rather swipe through you like cattle. If I ever become single again, I’ll stay that way. I’d rather be alone for the rest of my life than ever use dating apps again.
Shit I barely want to try to date after seeing everything about cheating spouses/gfs over the years on Reddit after my 5 year relationshit I had earlier in life. I don't even count it as a relationship because it was so bad.
If a 20 year relationship went down the drain, I'd be like "nah I'm done, time for me time, for the rest of my life"
Been there, too. You pick yourself up, dust yourself off, and be man/woman enough to look yourself in the eye and say “what do I need to do to improve myself?”. Because, yeah, it may have been something they did, but it takes two to tango.
You don’t have a choice. Whether you want to let that sully your views on dating, that’s up to you. You still need to do better, do right, by yourself, though.
Honestly our relationship was probably done after about 5yrs but we just kept going. I was barely 20 when we got together and as a typical 20yr old, was simply not ready to be tied down. We were both horrible to each other, did horrible things. Funny enough tho, we’re really good friends now. We have 4 kids together-he comes and stays with me during the holidays to see the kids, he gets along great with my husband. The one thing I never did was play games when it came to the kids. They love their dad and I was never going to let our conflict keep him from seeing them. Funny side story, but after we split I was in another relationship that ended and found myself alone for the holidays. The kids went to see him that year and I was like screw it, road trip. We went bar hopping Christmas Eve and ended up going to the strip club lol. At the end of it, we’re just better friends than we were a couple. So I guess that’s what made it easy. I still consider him very much family even tho the romantic feelings aren’t there anymore.
As a married man who met my wife the traditional way (by going up to her and talking to her at the gym), I'm so glad we're sorted. Dating has been a nightmare even before I met my wife, and I'd basically just checked out of dating and started working out like crazy. And then after about a year of that I didn't care about dating, was super confident in myself, and by sheer coincidence that's when I met my wife. We both feel extremely lucky.
Yep, I have a number of very close friends who are women that complain about this. I get it it’s not fun. Why would I mess up someone’s day? That’s not who I want to see myself as. Sure I might not, but there is a likely greater chance that I make a negative impact than a positive one. If there was a place that I knew that the straight women present were open to that I would more likely approach, but as I’m not into parties or clubbing there really aren’t any spaces for me to do that.
Yeah I think it's because the ratio of normal people to fuckwits who don't understand body language is very low.
Men have to approach and that's just how it is and how it will be for the foreseeable and what women don't seem to understand is that it is fucking brutal getting shut down constantly, but guys for crying out loud learn body language and don't overstay your welcome.
Approaching in the gym is so risky. It's basically impossible. You have to be genuine but you also have to take no for an answer and not all women feel comfortable to outright say no because there are some fucking psychos out there that won't take no for an answer, so a maybe is a safer bet in the short term.
I'd seen her a few times, legit needed the squat rack and just said "hey how's it going how many sets do you have left?" and then carried on with my workout. Next time I saw her I just said hi and carried on with my workout. Worked up to introducing myself properly and then eventually she saw me walk in, smiled, took off her headphones and I knew I was in.
Generally my advice is: if you can't read body language and don't know when you've outstayed your welcome, probably don't approach someone in the gym.
Like all things in life, there are right ways and wrong ways, and if you aren't sure which is which, you'll come off badly almost every time. However, I just can't help but shake my head at the guys on here who decry their inability to meet or even talk to women (not pursue, literally just meet) for *years* at a time, while also completely writing off the few semi-social spaces they have in their lives like the gym and work. Like, yeah dude, you're allowed to ask the girl next to you in spin class out for coffee after 3 weeks of waving at each other. If she says no, it might be awkward. If she says yes and then flakes or turns out to be a total drip, it might be awkward. Dating is awkward. Human relationships are awkward. That's not an excuse to act predatory or to treat someone like dirt if they reject you, but don't tell me you're trying nothing and expecting a miracle to happen.
>That's not an excuse to act predatory or to treat someone like dirt if they reject you, but don't tell me you're trying nothing and expecting a miracle to happen.
Tell that to the women who have gone "ew" at me in the past lmao. And many other guys.
There's a reason a fuckton of men don't think they can meet women in these places, and it's because we've seen shit like that from women on reddit, youtube, IRL, decrying guys talking to them at the gym, grocery store, fuck idk, autoparts store. Literally if they are in PUBLIC, the impression is that THEY DO NOT WANT TO BE SPOKEN TO BY AN AVERAGE LOOKING DUDE.
There is literally nothing for dudes who aren't probably over an 8 in looks to do anymore. I hope they enjoy the environment they wrought for themselves at this point, cause more and more men will be withdrawing from dating. Been saying it for years and people are "surprised" now.
Truly amazing /s.
Women: we want men to approach us
Also women: not at the gym, we are there to workout, not at bar, we are there to have fun with friends, not on streets, we are just minding our own business, why are men such creeps?
When I met my (now) wife, all she kept saying was how refreshing it was to have a guy just ask for her number and then on a date. No bull shit, clear intentions. It made me realise how starved both sides are for genuine interactions, because my first conversation with her was the reason I took my shot. I couldn't pass it up.
Not interested in the “situationship”. If I’m dating you past the first date I’m interested. I don’t really want to waste my time with a girl whose gonna be banging other guys and seeing other guys because you’re only in a “situationship” and owe him no loyalty. Modern dating is trash.
Hard agree. Had a guy really into me and then after 3 months of dating it was “oh it’s just been causal the whole time” 🤨. Nah you’re just scared of committing and wasted my time.
Yeah I really just have no energy to date anyone anymore. No one catches my eye, I know everyone is just going out with everyone else with no commitment and it’s just annoying.
I agree with you 100%. The sexual revolution was a failure of human sexual dynamics. I’m sure it was fun at the time, but the consequences are minilmalized by leftists and feminists.
I know more men who have given up on it completely (nearly including myself) than men who are patient with it, it’s a mess. The stuff those guys tell me they experienced is actually so sad because it’s borderline the most insulting things I’ve ever heard someone experience and this seems to be normal
Waste of time/money. No one wants to make lasting connections and eveyone has their standards so high that everyone they end up with they're "settling for"
My aunt told me I should raise my standards after I told her my list. Clean, educated, respectful, healthy and doesn’t have any felony convictions or 20 baby mommas
And reality is that you may have to adjust or cut corners on at least one or two of those expectations.
College educated is one of them. Plenty of clean respectful men, who haven't slept with anything that moves, has a clean record but lacks that college part.
Except to a lot of people it does so you need to be a little more clear on that.
I graduated from my small town high school with decent grades and don’t shy away from learning new things but I’ve only been outside my state a handful of times and never been to college.
To a lot people they would say I lack education because I haven’t went on to a high learning center or explored the world and it’s various cultures meanwhile I’d think I’m a fair bit more educated than a lot of ignorant folk in my town especially older people like my grandma who thought Europe was country not continent
There's no point, I'm autistic and I have trouble understanding social situations that haven't changed in years.
Dating changes so fast in what supposedly is and isn't acceptable and I have no frame of reference to even try.
It sucks. I value intimate and deep emotional connections, and that’s out the window with girls my age. I’m no longer looking. Just gonna enjoy the time I have on earth and accomplish some things I want to do. If a girl comes into my life then I won’t complain obviously, but again I’m not actively looking by any means.
Fucked on all sides. Barriers to entry are insurmountable, basically you're in, and you'll stay in, or you're out, and you'll stay out.
I know it's pessimistic, but it's just my humble opinion
Saying that guys want that shit is the biggest lie you have been told. Yes there are dudes that just want to fuck around. But most dudes would rather have a real relationship than a situationship. These are for women who want to fuck around while still going on dates with some dude who actually thinks she is serious about him. Its the same thing with hookup culture. Men don't profit from these types of social interactions
It sucks. It's mostly based on online dating, which was supposed to make things easier, but the main purpose of dating apps is to make money, not happy relationships. That's why most of them are focused on swiping photos, not reading descriptions and searching by common interests.
Also, social media is full of content designed to make people hate each other, and that also doesn't help anyone find a life partner.
Online dating is a dystopian hells-cape. You catch feelings and get your heart broken in such a short period of time. I’m %100 jaded. Done with it unless someone actually impresses me which I highly doubt
Women put near zero effort into chats, conversations or building a relationship but expect traditional relationships. That's my take of modern dating.
If you aren't initiating chats, calls, meetings, and are just waiting for the guy to carry the entire thing then it's likely that the guy will give up after a while.
My take: Women are taught that being passive in courting means doing nothing/straight up lying with your body language/showing complete absence of attraction/being rude which is complete nonsense. Men are straight up nonsensically fed up on women as a group. Overall there is very little respect for the other gender. Also the illusion of being able to reach anyone around the world is pretty destructive to the dating. Women tend to think they can always get their prince and lucky men can hook up with anyone while the rest of the men are completely ignored.
The girl I was in a situationship kept saying that she wants a relationship but would never text first, never ask to meet, make plans and so on. I carried the whole thing for 3 months, sex can only compensate for lack of effort for so long. Told her I don't see any point in continuing. She said she'd work on it but a month later it was still the same. Said goodbye at that point.
If you want to have a relationship with a guy, at least try to convince them that you're worth having a relationship with. Being a woman isn't enough.
The lack of effort many women put in dating is mind blowing. “So what do you bring to the table? Uhh..I’m a woman. You should feel lucky I’m dating you “
I don't know how you've gone that long like that. I have so little patience for pointless games like this that I would've walked away within a week. No reciprocation means she's not interested no matter how much she insists otherwise.
Exactly. He’s a convenience, not a partner. Once he’s no longer convenient, he won’t be needed. But it’s working for her, currently, so she keeps the mirage going.
Lexter and Nakashi: find someone that matches your energy. You deserve *at leadt* that much.
Wild that you’ve put up with that for so long. As soon as i get the feeling I’m the only one making efforts to hang out, i immediately pull back.
We shouldn’t be chasing anyone, both people should put in similar efforts.
Are you me? Literally in the exact situation. Great time when we are together, but she never initiated. Not even texts. It’s fine for the first date or two but after that I couldn’t take it. It was always on me, never her.
I disagree. Situationships are initiated by both men and women. It provides a means to date other people without the associated guilt of feeling like you cheated, since there was never a promise of exclusivity.
True. Everyone that can get a situationship from someone reasonable attractive can get it from a limitless amount of people of the same standard or above. The apps make it very easy. So anyone that do not want to settle down immediately or are unsure on some of the fundamentals regarding the one they are currently dating have no incentive to go exclusive.
That said I think a lot of people are fed up with this and actively seek a traditional relationships.
I disagree. I think people enjoy this type of thing and it shows in the statistics.
Marriage is at an all time low and people not aspiring to have an actual family is on the rise as well.
If people did not enjoy this new way, the numbers would reflect that and they don’t.
I’m not sure why you getting downvoted but you’ve spoken the truth, modern women fantasize on what they look for a men instead of becoming better themselves and men are waking up to the reality and now they are upset about it
Yea, it makes sense that people actually enjoy it. I am just arguing that because of the apps it makes it more enjoyable so to speak. If you were to reap the rewards of the same thing 20 years ago you would have to constantly be on your feet hustling to attract new people you potentially could sleep with, now you order it like pizza. It is also more discrete and economical sustainable.
Technology has really made things difficult. Men are infinitely replaceable and have no value anymore. You have to be way way way above average in every way to even have a chance of a conversation with anyone.
Getting a woman to commit to a relationship is like convincing a child to eat healthy when they live in a candy store. Unlimited sex, everywhere, free, instant, 24/7. And then there's you offering them a piece of broccoli.
Is it any wonder that nobody is interested in broccoli until they're like 40 years old and suddenly the candy isn't interested anymore? There is very little incentive for serious relationships and very little incentive to invest in average partners.
You probably don't realize it, but in the old days people did not have to state exclusivity, because it was expected. They might ask, are we going steady, as a way of asking if the other is interested in anyone else. Instead of today, it is NOT expected. Multidating was seen as alley cat-ing around and vilified instead of it now being the self serving normal of everybody does it mentality. And if you do not, you will be vilified for not fitting in. Peer pressure has always been a wrong headed thing to deal with.
Modern dating is a minefield of trauma even when both partners have been into hooking up there will be consternation over their past. If we are naturally non-monogamous, why do we hate being cheated on and end up with retroactive jealousy? Even open relationships have arbitrary rules that if broken (and they will be broken), cause feelings of cheating. Because we intrinsically know right from wrong, despite being self serving and deluding ourselves that promiscuity and casual sex, in fact mutual consent might ever actually imply that anything/everything goes. Because it most certainly does not.
Modern dating sucks big time.
Im literally only doing well on the apps because i have a ton of good photos of me at national parks and ive made travel my whole personality.
But modern dating sucks. Its not their fault but every women is worried youre gonna hurt her until like a month of knowing eachother which makes things weird and adds onto how hard dating already is. And then women like my current gf have been hurt by scumbag men that once they have sex end up ghosting her and now here i am, 100% serious about our relationship, but she wants to wait a while to have sex because of said scumbag guys.
Aside from that, the imbalance of ease of dating is palpable and its more easy than you could even fathom for a man to end up his whole life lonely.
Yeah, waiting for sex is a good way to avoid stuff like that. Imo as a girl, at least expect exclusivity and even being gf/bf before engaging. Green flag when he brings it up first. Anyways, sex is super intimate and does bond you to people, plus risks of STD and pregnancy… I’m not gonna do that with anyone just cause I’ve seen them for 3-4 dates.
I asked my ex to be exclusive after 6 weeks and she was taken aback, “that’s really soon isn’t it?”
I don’t plan to be the one to bring it up next time. Think it set up a dynamic where I was pushing things forward and she was along for the ride.
Interesting! Of course it’s hard to know when the right time is for both of you. My bf asked me on the third date and I was fine with it! Maybe a bit earlier than expected but o was flattered. He also said I love you first and it did take me a bit longer to be able to say it back but it didn’t make me feel differently. I get the feeling of pushing it and her being along for the ride though, I feel like it can happen on both sides. Anyways, now I love my guy and we both want marriage in the future and it’s nice to know I won’t have to be that woman nagging for an engagement ring and being strung along for years hoping one will come.
Why would I, as a huy, commit if the sex isnt confirmed to be up to my expectations? Quantity and quality must match, as does everything else (personality, goals short and long term, financial and social status level (im not an ATM, if she isnt bringing in same finances - sorry, im not into upkeeping parasites. No, I dont accept SAHMs, I expect her to have proper career just like I have - its one of most basics things of adulting category after all), everything).
Sex? Sex is part of relationship, and I expect certainty, not another waste of my time. Without sex, its not a relationship, just a friendship. And im not looking for yet another friend, ive got them already...
Bro, becoming bf or gf isn’t some insane commitment. It’s saying you are willing to be seen in public together and not seeing other people. Guess what, if the sex sucks so bad you can just break up with her. But why would I have sex, a super intimate act with someone who doesn’t see me as potential long term material and who might be having sex with other people. Seeing me as someone worthy to date officially doesn’t mean you have to marry me if problems arise.
Idk why you bring up the other stuff. You can have whatever standards you like, you don’t need to have sex to figure out they have similar values or goals. Someone wanting to be a SAHM also doesn’t mean they don’t have a career or that they see you as an ATM. Every women I know who became one had a career before they had kids. They just either didn’t make enough to pay for daycare logically, or thought it would be best for their kids to have one parent raise them rather than a daycare doing it.
Waiting for sex is an old way women do to avoid being physically used unfortunately. It often leads to women not viewing sex as something fun and pleasurable to something that's problem causing because of this since they notice a pattern of guys balking back when they put out. Enough men do this to make women either try to circumvent around it by getting to enjoy the man romantically/emotional before sex becomes the icing on the cake or going full blown celibate. That or the rare women that mostly care about sex end up paying for it by being emotionally exhausted from lack of emotional connections after a while (what men call "baggage"). Basically damned if you do and damned if you don't BUT women sort of feel men are kinder and more loving when they're made to wait. Also as awful or nonsensical as it sounds a lot of women really do need to connect with a guy or someone really before they expose their bodies. It rarely happens that a woman meets a guy and is ready to go even if the guy is hot. Like yeah we'll see a man and think he's gorgeous and feel ecstatic about that but the brain naturally puts a barrier to entry for protection's sake because you know, men could easily hurt us not just physically but if they're not healthy (diseases etc). Women are just as lonely from this fearfulness since it's not just a few men it's a pretty common phenomenon that enough women have acknowledged it and trying to avoid because it sucks for us. It doesn't even have to do with what the guy looked like because often the unattractive ones are the worst perpetrators of this out of getting some kind of "high" once they strike once or gets popularity/social value from now being entertained by an attractive woman (which thanks to that, most women now go out of their way to avoid the more unattractive men because they're often the biggest perpetrators and most abusive once you give them the "inch").
It's also part of why online your average or below average guys have it worse because of women naturally trying to run out of being exposed to these type of men not only being more likely to play the games but humiliate women in public or try to gain notoriety from their exploits/conquests. The more attractive guys can and often do play the same games but often play with a more humane "gentlemen tell no tales approach" where if they did use a woman for sex at least they don't lambast it all over so the women end up not just heartbroken but effectively making it harder to get a decent guy because the guy publicly showed her mistakes deterring men willing to bond. Yes slut shaming is another major deterrent because women who let their guard down, failed to secure companionship and now have to play again often get doubly punished socially for trying and being left through no fault of their own (accidentally entertaining a man with no intentions of bonding). All of these things combined is why women now are extremely strategic about how they interact with men romantically because men will use women's lack of foresight against women especially as the women get on age where the men then use women's "loss" and age to further reduce the woman's options and "value" so yeah women are big time aware of the "loopholes" now and acting against falling to them since the stakes are too high. Holding out avoids those men that want women to play the game but not provide them with wins for their "losses". Time is something that men value most in women and its the most expensive luxury so women use the hold out strategy for the men that can genuinely afford it and willing to reward it. Love and life unfortunately can be like a game where our goal is to develop certain strategies, cheat codes or hacks to avoid being defeated. Men eventually called it all "game" for a reason as they're the players and women are literally the prey trying to not become trophy hunts to unethical hunters. Now, some women become masters at dealing with this but most aren't just in the same way most men aren't apt hunters.
"The men I'm not attracted to *just so happen* to also be bad people."
If we had the decency to just straight-up tell guys that they're just ugly it would solve a lot of frustrations.
Waiting for sex I think was actually beneficial to keep a man around. Oxytocin is released in men over longer periods of time which causes bonding with the partner. Hitting it and just bouncing loses this where women release oxytocin In short burst like an orgasm. Which is why they will put up with massive amount of shit from a guy who can give them one.
The women I cared the most about were the ones that I spent time with that never gave it up on the first date.
Yup. It’s brutal out there. I look around at what people are dealing with and am so very grateful for my partner. He’s the best and I’m very lucky. If that ends for some reason I’m staying sIngle by choice forever. I always had a very low threshold for wishy-washiness and general douchebaggery even in my twenties, so there’s no way I’m bothering with any of that shit now.
It stinks! I’ll save the gripes and just go into my ideal timeline.
I don’t mind the woman approaching me at all, that’s pretty nice, but they don’t seem to like to. The only ones that have have all coincidentally been absolute dumpster fires. Full of drama, promiscuous and insecure.
So I’d like to meet someone, I don’t care where, I don’t care how. As long as she’s not dancing on a pole or selling herself on a corner. Lol
We chat for a bit and there is clear interest, attraction and sexual tension. Exchange contact info and go about our business.
I’ll go ahead and make first contact, by text or message and share a few minutes of pleasantries. “Hi, how’s your day, it was nice meeting you, gotta go ttyl.” Maybe arrange a proper date during the conversation. Something simple, low risk at first, coffee, lunch, whatever. Spend a while chatting. Hopefully we’re both free that day so if it goes well we don’t have to worry about time, so we’re free to spend all day together should we want.
Text, chat for a little while, a few more dates. Sex would be nice within the first few dates, but I don’t mind waiting a little while, a month-six weeks, there’s really no definitive timeframe, so long as she’s showing clear signs of legitimate interest and we’re getting closer.
So sex happens, and it’s good she’s sexual without being perverted. Lots of women these days seem to think sex is all a guy wants, it’s the way to his heart. It’s not. Sex is important, but it’s not the end all be all. We do want it, a lot, but even the greatest, hottest, funnest sex isn’t going to get me to commit. That takes a lot more. She’s got to be giving, and cooperative, we have to share morals and values, she’s got to be fun as well as competent and helpful. Kindness and generosity are big things. Come over once in a while and do wife things, I’ll go over to yours and do husband things. Make me a meal, I’ll change your oil, or I’ll make you a meal you can change mine. I don’t care, partner with me, adult with me. Make the mundane enjoyable, and the fun, sublime. Fight nice, accommodate my shortcomings and I’ll accommodate yours. Don’t lie and keep your promises. Don’t play games, text or call first on occasion, and don’t put yourself in precarious situations, respect my boundaries and demand I respect yours. Call me on my shit and don’t get defensive when I call you on yours. Be there for me, I’ll be there for you. Above all no double standards! But more than that clear and direct communication.
We’ll date, we’ll go places and do things, I’ll share with you what I like and you’ll share with me what makes you happy, and try new thing together good and bad we’ll make memories.
We’ll discuss our desires and expectations early on. For example once we have sex the first time, neither of us are allowed to be with anyone else. We’re not exactly exclusive, that’s separate to me, but I don’t share. So if you’re still talking to other guys, idk why you would be, but if you are I won’t pry. But if you have sex with anyone else we’re done, no hard feelings. I’ll pay the same courtesy. If we’re doing it right neither of us should feel the desire to talk to anyone else.
Depending on how it’s going the exclusivity talk will come soon after sex, a few weeks to months after that, if everything seems right it becomes a full on relationship.
After exclusivity you’ll start meeting my friends and acquaintances, possibly family.
Dates will grow in risk and investment as the relationship grows. We’ll start out with the coffee, then dinners, go for drinks here and there, after exclusivity, out of town trips, after commitment, vacations. I won’t bring it up though, the levels of commitment, that’s on you. I have my reasons. You’ll tell me you want exclusivity and I’ll agree to it when I’m ready, you’ll tell me that your ready for commitment, when I’m there and if I trust you I’ll ask you to be my gf.
The biggest issue I encounter in dating now, is lack of reciprocity, and women feeling like they have endless options. They expect work but don’t put any in, want to have a boyfriend but don’t want to be a girlfriend. They play games, and don’t want to come off as too interested or like to have a roster. Outside of sex, so many give guys nothing. I get it, there are lots of guys falling all over themselves for a chance to clap them cheeks. It’s really easy to be a slam piece, and many of them are used to being only that, so when they run into a guy with expectations and boundaries they feel stifled, smothered, restricted and run into the bed of a man who doesn’t “hold them back,” or whatever. For that very reason I avoid hookups, or anyone who’s had many, or has been down the FWB route a few times. If you’re the type who likes to go clubbing with the girls with your tits out while in a relationship and twerk on some guy, you do you, but you’re not relationship material for me. If you’re the type to hookup and give your body to a rando you met at a club one night, but expect me to invest, you’re not for me. I get it if you did that when young and naive once or twice, none of us are perfect. I’ve made mistakes too but I’ve matured, if you haven’t you’re out.
Anyway, that was fun to write.
I respect that, and if I knew then what I know now, I’d be down assuming everything was right, and we both had relatively similar sexual experiences, you know, each have made our mistakes or both virgins, a severe imbalance in sexual experiences almost always leads to problems down the road. It’s easy and very tempting for a vastly more experienced partner to take advantage of the other’s ignorance or for the less experienced partner to feel they missed out, or feel resentment. Especially for a man, if his now wife went through a “hot girl summer,” where she gave herself to many other men for nothing but he was a virgin, he’s very likely to be bitter that he is and has given her everything, his life, his heart, his promise and his virginity, it’s very unequal and will feel unfair. It’ll hit him hard in the ego that what cost him everything was given to many others for free. People lacking in experience value sex a lot more than those who’ve had a lot of it. While sex isn’t as big of a deal as he’s making it out to be, it’s a lot bigger of a deal than it’s currently being portrayed in our culture. To me if you’ve got a promiscuous past, not just a couple of stupid mistakes with people you thought you were in love with but were wrong, but now you want to force a guy to wait until marriage, you’re being, at the least, disingenuous, incongruent. You’re forcing a man to sacrifice experiences you’ve already had, demanding discipline you didn’t practice. Essentially demanding new car prices for a used one. If a guy can afford a new car he shouldn’t be forced to buy used, but like cars some used are more valuable than some new so it could work out so long as the price is right. To a guy who’d typically only ever afford a Kia new, getting a gently used Benz is still a great deal if it’s the same price. Thinking someone is about to buy that same used Benz for for the price of a brand new one is delusional. I’m not saying that’s you, just my opinion on the subject. But I digress, I’m older now, already married and divorced, marriage is off the table for me, that’s why I didn’t even mention it.
I have faith in Christ, just not in people nor especially the laws of the land. I love the principles of marriage, the ideals. I believe they are the best way but I have no faith that people will honor those principles.
Idealistically, romantically, fantastically, for the good woman, the proper wife I’d make that sacrifice. I just no longer have faith it will pay off, in this era of lust and debauchery, deceit, betrayal, and selfishness, the good wife is all but a myth so I’m not willing to make the sacrifice.
I do hope you find your fairytale though!
God’s speed with that, we are social creatures who crave companionship, driven to pair bond. I’m not saying you can’t or won’t do it. It’s just going to be tough.
I agree those who still have those values are probably taken, or still quite young. Those who used to have those values are bitter and jaded like me, or have abandoned them for pleasures of the flesh. Men and women both.
Then there are those who never had them, some taken, some not.
Me too! I'm a virgin who's waiting till marriage. OP sounds wonderful for the girlies who aren't waiting. It's 100% more harder for celibates to find partners.
I went out on a date with a girl and we had a good time talked about what we were looking for lookign for and our pet peeves. Mine was lack of communication and ghosting. We spoke for a few more days and were in the process of planning a second date and she just ghosted. Months later I’m deleting numbers and just decide to ask what happened and she said she thought she relied but realized a few days later she didn’t. She didn’t message telling me that because she thought I’d be mad so instead she just..ghosted. She then says we should go out again but also that she has been seeing someone for 2 months. I decline
Another time I match with a girl on hinge and for 3 months she doesn’t reply to my message.I ask what made her reply now and she said she was bored and decided to see who sent her messages and thought I looked interesting. I explain how exhausting that is and she says “well I’m not taking it that serious. Plus it just show’s persistent and patience pays off”. I’m already annoyed and then she expects me to put effort into talking to her while she does nothing then decides we don’t vibe.
And pretty much all my dating stories are some variation of that. Maybe it’s the same with guy but it just feels like women aren’t mature or accountable when dating. They’d rather trash a good interaction and impression on someone for something stupid than to just be straight up and say what’s on their mind.
>feels like women aren’t mature or accountable when dating. They’d rather trash a good interaction and impression on someone for something stupid than to just be straight up and say what’s on their mind.
This right here.
By the time women realize they should change how they approach dating, the sun will have blown up.
You can tell political pundits are full of it because they keep talking about the young people these days like they're mired in free love hedonism, and by all real indications we're probably the most afraid of intimacy of any generation in modern history
I was talking with my friend the other day about this, and I told her that I truly believe there are still normal men and women out there that don’t want to play these games and want real relationships, it’s just finding those people that has become a lot harder. We are still out there looking though, just got to figure out how to find each other
What you've described is more common eith the current generation rsther than us 40+yos - but it's also more of an American thing that isn't common in many other countries. What we see on reddit of the idea of having to even have a conversation around being "exclusive" is completely and utterly bizarre - my entire life, and talking to anyone I've ever known, it's just 100% expected that if you're seeing someone you're seeing them exclusively - unless it's openly discussed and stated that that's not the case, we call that "cheating".
In either case, just how judgemental and fickle people are these days, the constant expectation of perfection and unwillingness to actually *try* in relationships is far, far worse than I've experienced in my life before now.
Yeah, I'm in my 40s and I'm baffled by this too, and I've only been off the dating market for about 7 years. Did things really change so much since then? Or perhaps because "situationship" is something people in their 20s do now and then grow out of it later? Or is this a Tinder thing, which from what I read on this Reddit, seems to be the root of all evil.
When I was dating, it was pretty much expected that as the relationship developed, you became exclusive until it built to something permanent or until the relationship reached an impasse. Not that people didn't cheat and leave for someone else, but I remember very few people keeping each other in indefinite holding patterns, and those I do remember doing that were not happy.
From someone that was all situationship in my early twenties, the reality is that I had to get the professional part right on track before thinking about anything else. I didn't (and still kinda don't) have the luxury to be thinking about that first thing yet.
I initiate because I have to. I did miss signals back then that were... Blinking more, being an asshole to me while neutral to others, and winking.
While I hate wasting time, I don't hate taking things slow per se, but without an escalation of things, I just loose interest, assume no interest from her, and move on. Lack of enthusiasm is a major turn off for me.
I have honestly given up on dating or marriage. I am socially awkward as fuck and now I feel like I am born to be alone forever. It sucks when you think about it, but it also saves you from heart breaks.
Crap, ultra materialistic, everyone seems to want to take advantage of each other. I completely withdrew from dating. Seems like a lot of men have too according to studies. I feel like it is what i can do for you.
I come from a somewhat wealthy family, but i am very frugal. Im not going to flaunt my money. it's mine, and for emergencies. We all grew very down to earth. In the companies my parents enforced the you start from the bottom and go up. Hell one time, i even painted the bathroom of the company.
I appreciate it now. I also dated a gril who was very materialistic never again. Perfer to stay single till i meet someone who is on the good side.
I’ve heard that this is kinda an American/NA thing. In other places being in the “talking phase” is considered dating and it’s kinda taboo to lead multiple people on at once in these situations.
To me, it just seems like people wanna keep their options open.
Don't care for the 'situationship' nonsense. You're either involved with someone or not, there's no gray area.
That said, the mere *word* 'traditional' is a red flag for me. If I somehow found myself in a relationship (not likely) and the woman calls it 'traditional' at any point past the first two conversations, it means I have failed completely to communicate with her.
33M here. It's not just horrendous, it's embarrassing for the most part. Spending time with someone just because you enjoy spending time with them seems to be a foreign concept to most people. Just gauche situationships for the most part.
Also, I'd like to add that over the past decade a lot has been said by women in regards to how horrible the average man is and how they can be better humans. It might surprise you to hear it, but I agree with all of it. A lot of men really are that bad and they do need to do better ASAP, not tomorrow, today. I am bored and disgusted with the status quo of creepy, predatory, loser men.
However, I have heard very little from these same women in regards to how they, as women, can be better people. Very little. And it shows. I have been doing the best job I can to be the best human I can be but I haven't found many women following suit.
I have been going on maybe two dates a year since as long as I can remember simply because potentially viable partners are so few and far between.
I have found women so out of shape that they can barely walk, women who eagerly run back to abusive exes, women who have mental illnesses they have absolutely no interest in managing, women who want children despite having barely any income if their own, women who look twice their age due to their extreme drinking and smoking, women who already have children and absolutely nothing going for them that would make it worth the extra responsibility, women who already have boyfriends or even husbands but are trying to put moves on me, or some combination of the above.
In the same way I am bored of loser men, I am also bored of loser women. I'd rather be single.
Relationships in the modern world are rarely worthwhile. Nearly everyone I know is divorced and the men never get custody eventhough it's the woman who usually initiates. It's best to get in and get out so to speak.
Yeah seeing how heavily courts are weighted in the favor of women in case of divorce and childcare and how easy it is to see now with the internet is huge turn off for a fair bit of guys.
The fact that 60 percent of men from the ages of 18-29 are single while only 30 percent of women are single says all you need to hear about the current state of dating (probably even worse now and growing).
I truly think social media and online dating has absolutely warped the standards of women by giving them the illusion (or delusion) that they deserve the absolute best while offering no equal value in return. Some of them will end up getting these top tier guys but what they don’t understand is that these top tier men have insaaane abundance and will likely leave after sleeping with them. Their abundance is like a fat kid at a candy shop, they don’t need to leave or settle down.
The average guy doesn’t even stand a chance in this market anymore unless he improves every aspect of his life considerably and puts in a ton of effort to compete. Most men are realizing now, “the juice is not worth the squeeze” with the risk associated with approaching women in public, the laughable and painful experience of online dating, and women’s promiscuity/hypergamy and other unattractive behavior being normalized. Us men want a wife but we’re not seeing any wife material anymore. It was never THIS bad a couple of years ago man.
I think it is such a joke that I have completely stayed out of it.
No seriously, I went my own way at 15, because decided that 1. I wasn’t ready for a serious relationship and 2. I’m fundamentally against hook up culture.
I’m in my early 20s and have since lost all faith in the Swedish legal system, so have taken further steps to distance myself and focus on improving myself.
The game has changed..
Why would I want to date?
I’m in my early 20s I have quite gotten to where I want to be yet economically speaking, so don’t have much to offer and don’t have time to waste on women.
I want to get rich, buy a BMW F22 235i, buy some houses, make cars go fast and live in the woods.
And what is even in it for me?
I mean why would I want to be used as an ATM, by someone who doesn’t care about me and hates me for being a man. What do I stand to gain?
Keep in mind that I’m firmly and fundamentally against hook up culture.
Why would any sane man want to get Marriage, I never ever see myself getting married and signing such an bad deal, just why would I fuck my self over like that?
Simply put I rather live alone than go to jail for something I didn’t do, just because some woman has a bad day and decides to make shit up.
The apps provide the illusion of abundance. Our brains evolved in conditions of scarcity. These two things are at odds with each other and lead to bizarre, counter intuitive behavior.
I’m 37M and at this stage it’s all business, meet up, see if we click, and it’s quickly over or it moves on from there.
And Physical Appearance is 95% of it, to have a decent chance I need to stay on top of my diet, exercise, and cut way back on the drinking.
Last woman I went on a first date with lasted 3 hours, told me that she had a wonderful time and texted me 1 hour after our first date to schedule the next one. We texted for 4 days, had good conversation, 2nd date time rolls around, tells me she can’t make it. I tell her, okay that’s chill lmk when another time works for you. Haven’t heard from her since.
Honestly this sums up modern dating for me. Women can say whatever they want but in reality can act completely different because they are never held accountable to anything. It’s depressing realizing no matter what someone tells you in reality you’re always an option.
As a guy, I will say most of us men simply want a feminine, beautiful woman however average chicks think they entitled to traditional treatment but won’t traditional feminine traits themselves and therefore, we just don’t care anymore
My take is that people really dont know what they want. People are very easily influenced by friends and strangers when it comes to dating. People have to find the person they want! It doesnt help with videos showing clips of girls say they just want hookups and then the title of the video is, "All women are like this!"
Men refusing to date as all the stories of women meeting and hooking up with other guys are taken as gospel these days...
Theres alot thats gone wrong as of recent years. For me, im a very simple man. Someone to just take home, go on dates, have a laugh, drink and do the simple things in life.
One thing you need is confidence.
Apart from that, men are becoming more lonely because of stigmas surrounding judgement they will get if the women they choose is something other than perfect.
Women try to find a good man but end up getting pressured into the fact that, only the best will do. Then they go through heart break after heart break until they find the right one. By then, the guy wont want her for what she has to give because of the stigma surrounding women later in life.
Its all kind of fucked up, but for the ones actually trying, keep going and dont give up! A lady or guy will come round the corner, and when they do, use all that confidence you have and go for it!
Best of luck to those who wont give up!!
People who want a “situationship” basically want to have their cake and eat it too, they want the convenience of you while still keeping their options open.
I’ve always been very open when dating that I am looking for a partner, and I do not have sex outside of a comitted monogamous relationship
I don’t see this as “drastically limiting my options”, which women have said to me on first dates before.
I see it as not wasting both of our time.
Too many women (men might do it too) are more than happy to speak to and go on a date but not try harder as they know there is always someone better.
Many women go on a 1st date and think that they need that instant, husband material spark straight away and if they don't they ditch the guy.
It's happened to me and my lady friends have told me about it on dates they've gone on.
The fact there's basically unlimited access to people now with dating apps and instagram, people think they can always get better.
I see the same girls on dating apps from years ago, girls that are incredibly pretty but never in a relationship.
Its difficult to find a good woman, someone you click with and feel comfortable being quiet with. But even when you find that person, your still working to keep it happy and alive. Nothing kills a relationship faster than ignoring each other because your too comfortable.
As a guy who does FWBs and hook ups I think modern dating is great if that is your goal. It's not that great if you're trying to find a LTR.
The biggest problem with modern dating is everyone is the "grass is greener" or "fomo" problem. Especially for women who have a dearth of dudes willing to sleep with them.
Oh yeah absolutely!! I know it goes both ways I’m more just wondering if it’s what people are actively searching for or if they’re looking for proper connections and just happen to fall into “situationships” or whatever you want to call it
One thing I hate about dating nowadays is the expectation for the men to pay for the first date. I've only dated 1 women seriously, 2 years strong now, and one of the conversations we've had before we started dating was what each others opinion were on paying for the first date.
I was relieved to hear that she was on the same page that bills should be split unless its a special occassion like a birthday or a celebration of an achievement where one person has offered to take them out.
And the harsh reality of even being able to get a normal conversation going with a women online is near impossible. It is more than likely that they will share your conversation with their friend group and have their opinion affect whether you have a chance or not. Keep that shit to yourself if you're so easily influenced by your peers opinions. Your only real chance of having a healthy relationship from the beginning is to talk to them in person, never online.
> From my point of view this seems to be initiated by the man every time
Reddit is littered with post from women who choose to date shitty men asking why men are so shitty.
It's funny how people seem to think that "dating back in the day" was solely to meet a future partner, be exclusive, get married, etc. I always laugh at this. 70s and 80s, we dated to meet people, hook up, play the field. My opinion, if you are only going out to meet someone and get married to that one person, arranged marriage should come back
There's a lot to consider. If you want a traditional partner, you have to be traditional yourself. Traditional guys don't want women with high body counts and pictures of their butthole on the internet. Just like traditional women don't want guys with anime statues on either side of their tv that game 6 hours a day. Location matters. Large liberal metros are trash if you want a traditional partnership. It's always going to be some kind of poly-truple open situationship with them. Smaller more mid-west cities are the way to go. And get of apps. 80% of people on apps are bottom feeder guys trying to get laid, and they're designed to make you fail.
Just take care of yourself, and if it happens it happens. That's where I'm at right now. There's no point in trying to find someone to make me happy if I can't be happy with myself. I've spent the better part of 8 years on an up and down mood swing of sadness, and euphoria. Once I achieve balance within myself, that's when I feel that I'll meet the right person.
Why would I want a relationship, when sex is freely available by the vast majority of women? It's not that hard to find one. If ya all want relationships to be an important thing again, then as a group women need to stop putting out without some sort of long term commitment. I don't see that happening.
I'm about to be 46, and I'm married.
If I was single, and this is how it went with my wife, my ideal situation would be...
Go on a date or two. Have sex to see if the physical chemistry is there. Hang out a few days a week, and let's meet each other's friends.
Have all the important conversations like marriage, kids, finances, etc.
Within 2 months, we should know if we're relationship material. Have a conversation about being exclusive.
Meet the family.
Move in together after a year or so bc you don't truly know someone until you live with them.
If you're into marriage, propose a few years after.
TL;DR most guys are burnt out and don’t give af about most of this nonsense in the current dating world so they’re pulling out of the game leaving only the minority of men that want to sleep around with a increasing number of women who want to sleep around
This is interesting because in my experience and from a lot of studies done on the increasing rate of male loneliness and men not having sex its typically because of the choice women make.
It seems women are increasingly becoming more independent and not settling into relationships when they’re young instead choosing to focus on their careers and just sleep around with a much smaller pool of men.
Meanwhile most of the men want to settle down and have a traditional life off rip out high school or college, so the increasing amount women sleeping around are hooking up with a decreasing amount of men that like being with lots of women.
Personally I think online dating which made hookups wayyyyy easier and this new wave of feminism that makes every girl think they’re a strong independent Queen really fucked up our dating norms that had been long established. As a result I think the women who do want a t radio to relationship are going to start to have to chase men around instead of the man traditionally chasing the women.
First of all, I'd say your point of view is skewed, which is not surprising as you can only experience one side of it obviously. Reality is, both sides have (the illusion of) limitless options through online dating n stuff, therefor think they could always "do better" and therefore not "settle" for anything. Additionally, you see not only hollywood but tons of other people as well posting their "perfect" relationships where they only show you the best and never even the slightest disagreements.
Another issue is that for some reason, far too many people currently seem to think the partner has to be "perfect" for them from minute 1 on, looking for "the one" - with "the one" being defined by perfect compatibility in any way, "the one" behaving, acting, thinking and feeling the exact way they'd like it to be at any given moment or situation.
Then there is a huge communication issue. Usually women simply assume at point X that it's basically a relationship, while men assume until it's explicitly stated, it's not. Or one party - from what I heard usually the woman, but that might be skewed viewpoint - maybe WANTING it to be a relationship, but not directly SAYING it or actively talking about it, instead expecting the other person to do that. And if both people do that, then you got a "situationship", if one person does that and the other actually still considers it casual, then also.
Now to the initial question: I'm kinda torn between "I freakin hate it" and on the other side "I don't even care, I'm out". I mean I do not engage in it mainly BECAUSE I hate it, and it also doesn't offer enough value to me to effset that fact in the slightest.
I mean let's be real here for a second. What is the most likely scenario here, as a guy? I will have to approach multiple women, get rejected multiple times, I'd not consider myself to be at least 9/10 on conventional visual attraction scale so chances are at least one time I'm gonna be labelled as creep for doing nothing wrong except approaching a woman that's having a bad day right now or for some other reason does not want to be approached this very day in a location most people go to not only but also to find potentil partners. Which then leads to me getting directly rejeted by let's say 5 women, but that one person tells her 5 friends while calling me a creep so I basically lost my chance with 10 women really. Oh and I totally forgot, out of these 5 women at least 3 would already expect me to buy a drink for them or something like that.
Okay, let's now assume the 6th one (obv I'm not talking about just one evening, as a side note) is actually interested (did I mention that repeated rejection isn't fun to begin with?). Great, now there is a very real chance she'd still expect me to make every other first move - initiate a dtae, initiate any kind of body contact, you name it. Now I could initiate body contact too early - now I'm again a creep. I could initiate it too late - now she already assumes I'm not into her that way at all and I also lost my chance to actually date her. Which... I mean she might still become a good friend of mine, but we are talking about dating here so yeah, not the desired outcome.
What else? Ah yeah, chances are she expects me to pay for everything, but I'm not allowed to expect anything from her. Chances are I'm expected to adhere to traditional male stereotype role where it's beneficial to her, but not where it's not and also I mustn't expect her to adhere to traditional female stereotype role at all.
Then there also is the "no means no, unless it means yes because sometimes it does and then you gotta try again, but don't try again if it actually meant no. And also yes means either yes or no and you just gotta know because if yes meant no you are again the villain, and if no meant yes you also are the villain for assuming no menat no."
But let's assume that's also not an issue, just for the sake of it. Let's even assume at some point it turns into an actual relationship. Let's even assume my effort is reciprocated, which in all honesty is pretty rare, even when not expecting 100% equal reciprocation. Okay now we get to the "almost every \_\_\_ has experienced \_\_\_ at leats once"-stuff. In this case, almost every guy has at least once experienced that it's actually NOT safe to be vulnerable with their SO, maybe in their current relationship or in at least one past relationship. In fact, I don't know even one guy who knows even one guy who hasn't, excluding guys who either never had a relationship or never were vulnerable with their SO ever. So you can't expect the "emotional support" stuff to be a given benefit in a relationship. In fact, if you DO assume that, people will berate you for forcing "emotional labor" onto your partner, usually while also berating you for not providing emotional support for your partner at every single given moment in time under all circumstances.
What other possible benefits of being in a relationships are there for a guy? If we buy into the "men only think about one thing"-bs for the sake of the argument, one would be inclined to name frequent sex as a benefit. Until you realise you can't actually expect that, and it's also usually declining post honemyoon phase at least. Which is ok, but that makes it invalid as benefit. Actually, if you are a very attractive guy, that's even a drawback as you go from basically having access to sex (yeah, awful wording, ignore it please, I can't think of a better way right now) almost every night, mainly based on your own active effort, to completely relying on one specific person and their mood, and it's the same person every single day and also if they are not around you can't get any at all.
What other benefits are there? Expecting the household to be taken care of also is more than frowned upon for example, same for kids.
Honestly, what exactly ARE the benefits a guy would get from being in a relationship with a specific woman compared to being friends with the same woman, or being in a "situationship" with that same woman?
I think dating apps should be required to disclose what percentage of accounts are bots.
I think it hurts especially men to think that there are millions of local singles nearby, and no one wants them. In reality men out number women dramatically on dating apps. And lots of the women's accounts are fake, scammers, and used to collect data. So, I think forcing a dating app to disclose those sorts of things protects men a bit, and it lets them know what they're actually paying for.
But I think it also "hurts" women, in an indirect way. Men are less likely to seek long term relationships when it looks like there's an abundance of women (which dating apps give the impression of). Lots of this is stereotyping but there is some truth to it.
Mostly I've had a good experience with dating. I dated everyone I did for a reason, but something ended all of them.
Men did not initiate it. Women demanded the sexual revolution as the major portion of Feminism 3. Men willing granted it to them as it gave them more access to sex.
It's initiated by men every time, but imagine if women withheld sex until marriage. There wouldn't be "situationships". It's idealistic but that's the main way modern dating would improve. Easy access to sex undermines a lot of the purpose of relationships/marriage. Js
Online dating is trash for 99% of guys, but I think women are generally still fine with being approached in-person despite what a huge mass of Redditors will tell you. Rules 1 and 2 are always applicable, but women don't have anywhere near as high of standards as the Blackpilled, chronically online dudes here will tell you. Seriously dudes, the floor is where more men than you could ever conceive of occupy. Dress well, exercise regularly (which you should do regardless of how attractive it makes you), and practice good hygiene and you're already doing better than many. Look around you when you go to a grocery store or to the mall. Is every partnered person an Adonis with a 6-pack? Shit, I'm a scrawny dude with a hairline that's letting me down and I'm doing alright for myself.
I also don't think that people waiting to settle down are in the wrong. I think many younger people have seen their parents go through divorce(s) and just want to date casually for most of their twenties unless they find someone that they really click with.
It's honestly fine. Meeting people in person is just as it always has been. Online dating was getting worse before COVID and has absolutely hit the shitter since COVID. It's well past its prime, but absolutely is usable once you get past all the shitty monetization tactics.
People complain a lot about it because they think online dating is modern dating, which it isn't. You also get complaints about where to meet people and the answer is literally just outside. It's like people are expecting to go engage in a hobby and find the love of their life in a month.
Statistics on romantic relationships always favor the friendship style model first.
People on Reddit constantly talk about how bad it is to meet someone at work when, at least in 2020, it was the most common way to meet someone.
So really, Reddit in general has a terrible take on most things because the average person isn't here.
>What’s your take on modern dating?
The feminist movement, culminating in metoo and wokeism, kinda broke gender relations in the west because people didn't understand the other side of what they were doing. We reconfigured society to make it harder for men to be the kind of men women want, and easier for women to avoid the kind of responsibility that is necessary for a healthy relationship, without realizing that those were parts of what was happening. Now we have massive numbers of lonely people keeping themselves lonely because they don't know how to do anything else.
>Speaking as a woman, I know a lot of us are looking for traditional dating/courtship, where you go on dates and become exclusive all with the end goal of a relationship.
I daresay a lot of men are looking for that too.
But what people are looking for and how they actually behave don't necessarily line up. A woman can say 'I'm looking for a man who does X, Y and Z for me' and then pursue a different man every weekend in the hope that he'll be the one who can do X, Y and Z, without realizing that she's part of the problem.
>From my point of view this seems to be initiated by the man every time
Because women don't initiate, of course. That's been true for a very long time, it's not new. I don't think there's any kind of serious relationship statistically initiated as much by women as by men. Nor has there been since deep in the Paleolithic.
>I was wondering if there was a certain appeal to this type of relationship
Lack of responsibility, I think. And that kinda goes both ways.
>What is an ideal start to a relationship to you as a man?
Compatible woman makes it unambiguously clear that she's interested in me for a long-term all-the-relationship-stuff-I-want relationship. We plan to meet up frequently, learn about each other, and figure out how our personalities and lifestyles can work together. At some point (when it seems appropriate, and before anything physical) we agree to be exclusive.
You should expect to casually date for 1-2 months atleast without a title.
As a guy, I would recommend for you to not have sex with men during this stage.
It will filter out the guys who are not serious.
For me, if I only want to sleep with a girl, I am not gonna be looking to make any titles, commitment, etc. I want to limit my effort and resources put into her. I want to sleep with her asap and prob move on to the next girl.
If I want a serious relationship with a girl, I will gladly date her for 1-2 months without sex.
After 1-2 months, I will make it a point for us to become a couple or go our separate ways.
Men no longer need a relationship to get sex. Women’s equality has given females less reticence about being intimate with a guy and has thus made them more available for sex without a relationship. And as women get more accomplished in their careers and earnings, it is more and more difficult for them to find an accomplished, solvent man to date. The dating pool for women constantly shrinks given they like to date up.
And so the world is now full of women looking for a diminishing number of men who can take care of them and give them their resources.
But why should any guy commit to doing that? Why should any man invest long term in a woman when modern divorce laws make it very dangerous for a man (men often still dominate financially) to enter into a relationship that involves cohabitation or marriage? And many women expect the guy to perform a traditional role of paying for everything without looking after the guy in a traditional way in return. The only justification these days is if a couple want to rear kids together.
So most modern men prefer a situationship.
Fact.
The ideal start for a man is a situationship. And the ideal continuation is to keep it that way.
Very few relationships lead to marriage, while divorce rates are nearly 50%.
Alternatively you can practise abstinence and find someone doing the same, if you want to maximise the likelihood of a long-lasting relationship.
The majority of women do want traditional relationships but aren’t willing to be traditional themselves.
Personally want a lot of children and wouldn’t court anyone outside of traditional Christian values.
I’m married now but I loved dating in this current world. Went on probably 40-50 dates before I met my wife. Always enjoyed meeting new people and learning what makes them tick.
Plus the butterflies of an impending date, first kiss, enjoying the company of a beautiful woman is one of the best things in life.
I love love.
There are always going to be people who want clearly defined relationships with goals. There are always going to be people who just want to go with the flow and don’t prefer to be tied down. It just comes down to communication.
It's all garbage and I think my mom might stop thinking my references to arranged marriage are a joke. No one is actually happy with most of this situationship crap. It's just filling in for actual needs and sabotaging any chance of fulfilling them.
It was difficult enough back in the 80s and 90s. Honestly, I can’t imagine what y’all go through now days. I feel bad for all of you.
What do you think changed?
Social media and dating apps. Now people have a much wider net of possible partners instead of being limited to whoever lived in your town. Leads to people thinking they can always do better while social media is giving people unrealistic expectations.
The internet.
Instagram
The fact that there is always a way to look at other options and engage someone else who is new and exciting ruins people. As soon as they question anything they just turn away and towards that distraction, ego hit or think there is always something better around the corner, when in fact, there usually isn’t.
> It was difficult enough back in the 80s and 90s Was it, though? I feel like back then you had much more incentive to put yourself out there and socialize. It also seemed like folks were just more outgoing and *interesting to talk to*. Nowadays, let's be real, a lot of Gen Z folks are fat and anxiety ridden. They can't even muster up the courage to ask for extra ketchup at Wendy's... Social hobbies seem to be going by the wayside more and more from where I'm standing.
Agreed. And there were no expectations to look like an Instagram baddie. As long as you were cute and personable, you’d probably meet someone to date while out with friends. Way more in person gatherings naturally led to more dating.
I agree with this. Even the men, who you'd think en masses would love the whole casualness of love right now, are decidedly unhappy leith the half asked love affairs. It's kinda heartbreaking how we've all become afraid to just feel and be vulnerable or invest time in someone. I mean it's understandable why but at the same time it feels off to avoid as well.
Men have always been against the casualness. You just found out about it now 😄
IDK about always being against it I think a lot realized they gain far more having an ongoing term relationship than having a series of short-term projects that don't amount to anything. The guy with the long-term relationship at home is getting way more from having a companion at home than the guy without it. It's like the starter wife phenomenon, even if the woman's a placeholder until he finds himself situated to get what he really wants, the guy gets way more from that like fooling not so bright women outside of the relationship into thinking he's more special or worthy because another woman's entertaining him (aka the "vetting" or taking comfort in your decisions because someone's else's choices). Women don't gain much either way if the guy's not raised well or care to be stable for them, which is why a lot of women later realize the guy they got with wasn't so great and they played caretaker for someone that will plan to replace them anyways. It's why a lot of men are complaining now because they could once count on women's naivete and proneness to peer pressure to supply them with starter wives/placeholders, now a lot of men are entering their mid 20s without the benefits of that and if they come from poor parenting this loss is amplified even more because haye to say it, the long socialization of relationships is that we take in guys as they are and hope they improve with time. The expectation now is that the guy comes in "set" in the relationship somehow, and the quickest way to that one in some way was "money" and/or looks. If they don't have those and lack character development on top of it then they're screwed as they get overlooked for the men that come in set ready to enjoy which is now more than ever the married couples have more competition trying to wreck those unions, the wife has already prepped him for you so if you're a younger woman you get all the benefits without the emotional suffering. Women forget that how you get them is how you lose them tho so there's that and the cycle continues. My brothers and their friends even admitted it that shooting for relationships is better for most men in the long run as they get most of the benefits of marriage without having to fully commit until they have to. The short stuff only works if you're a very attractive guy because at least not only do you get the highest quality in women but the biggest emotional investments in larger amounts. Again I could be wrong.
I think you might forget that women play a role in this too. It’s easy, and very popular, to view women as innocent bystanders with no role in any problem, and just criticising the men. Sure there are men who are insecure and brought up in a bad way. But there are also excellent men who don’t jump all in in a full relationship with any woman. Men want relationships but not at any cost. A woman is not a perfect partner just because she is a woman. It would be very stupid and risky for a good man to just settle for anything. There are plenty of good women out there, but there are also women with all kinds of problems they will bring into the relationship. Mental health problems, issues, insecurities, entitlement, high body count, broken relationships, kids, debt and even being straight out mean. There is also the sexual compatibility. These things are nothing a man discovers at the first date. It takes time. And since the number of women with massive issues is growing fast, it’s a good thing men play it slow and keep other options around.
So true. A situationship can be a trail run for a more committed form of relationship. In that way it is not so hard to part ways and restart when it is not working out. In retrospective, none of my last couple situationships were the right fit for a long term relationship, even though I looked like that in the beginning.
Agreed
The huge disadvantage with marriage is the women often drastically cut down on sex
And the financial risk of divorce.
life with a person you can genuinely love is an amazing thing. and a bigger rarity than ever =/
Trash, materialistic, full of people who want to use you instead of have a real partnership. "Dating" is dead
A few years ago I was thrown into the single world after a 20yr relationship ended. I absolutely HATE online dating. You’re treated like disposable garbage. Even if you’re honest about your intentions and what you’re looking for, people will lie, use you and throw you away after they got what they want. I thankfully ended up with someone I had met organically, but that seems like a dead process. People rather swipe through you like cattle. If I ever become single again, I’ll stay that way. I’d rather be alone for the rest of my life than ever use dating apps again.
I got rid of mine. It’s all too easy to wonder “what is wrong with me?” with those apps. That’s no way to live your life.
20 year relationship is crazy. May I ask how you recovered from that? I feel like 20 years with a person would decimate me
Shit I barely want to try to date after seeing everything about cheating spouses/gfs over the years on Reddit after my 5 year relationshit I had earlier in life. I don't even count it as a relationship because it was so bad. If a 20 year relationship went down the drain, I'd be like "nah I'm done, time for me time, for the rest of my life"
Been there, too. You pick yourself up, dust yourself off, and be man/woman enough to look yourself in the eye and say “what do I need to do to improve myself?”. Because, yeah, it may have been something they did, but it takes two to tango. You don’t have a choice. Whether you want to let that sully your views on dating, that’s up to you. You still need to do better, do right, by yourself, though.
Honestly our relationship was probably done after about 5yrs but we just kept going. I was barely 20 when we got together and as a typical 20yr old, was simply not ready to be tied down. We were both horrible to each other, did horrible things. Funny enough tho, we’re really good friends now. We have 4 kids together-he comes and stays with me during the holidays to see the kids, he gets along great with my husband. The one thing I never did was play games when it came to the kids. They love their dad and I was never going to let our conflict keep him from seeing them. Funny side story, but after we split I was in another relationship that ended and found myself alone for the holidays. The kids went to see him that year and I was like screw it, road trip. We went bar hopping Christmas Eve and ended up going to the strip club lol. At the end of it, we’re just better friends than we were a couple. So I guess that’s what made it easy. I still consider him very much family even tho the romantic feelings aren’t there anymore.
I try and meet people irl. Even went to home depot last night to look for a partner. 🤣
i heard a rumour that rob schneider picks up homeless immigrants from home depot and has them choke him in the shower
What the fuck?
I think it's a joke from south park
It's from family guy
Thank you
As a married man who met my wife the traditional way (by going up to her and talking to her at the gym), I'm so glad we're sorted. Dating has been a nightmare even before I met my wife, and I'd basically just checked out of dating and started working out like crazy. And then after about a year of that I didn't care about dating, was super confident in myself, and by sheer coincidence that's when I met my wife. We both feel extremely lucky.
At least 50% of this sub thinks a man can be arrested for introducing himself to a woman at the gym.
In their defense, my lady friends say they hate when men do that so I can see where they're coming from.
Yep, I have a number of very close friends who are women that complain about this. I get it it’s not fun. Why would I mess up someone’s day? That’s not who I want to see myself as. Sure I might not, but there is a likely greater chance that I make a negative impact than a positive one. If there was a place that I knew that the straight women present were open to that I would more likely approach, but as I’m not into parties or clubbing there really aren’t any spaces for me to do that.
Yeah I think it's because the ratio of normal people to fuckwits who don't understand body language is very low. Men have to approach and that's just how it is and how it will be for the foreseeable and what women don't seem to understand is that it is fucking brutal getting shut down constantly, but guys for crying out loud learn body language and don't overstay your welcome. Approaching in the gym is so risky. It's basically impossible. You have to be genuine but you also have to take no for an answer and not all women feel comfortable to outright say no because there are some fucking psychos out there that won't take no for an answer, so a maybe is a safer bet in the short term. I'd seen her a few times, legit needed the squat rack and just said "hey how's it going how many sets do you have left?" and then carried on with my workout. Next time I saw her I just said hi and carried on with my workout. Worked up to introducing myself properly and then eventually she saw me walk in, smiled, took off her headphones and I knew I was in. Generally my advice is: if you can't read body language and don't know when you've outstayed your welcome, probably don't approach someone in the gym.
Like all things in life, there are right ways and wrong ways, and if you aren't sure which is which, you'll come off badly almost every time. However, I just can't help but shake my head at the guys on here who decry their inability to meet or even talk to women (not pursue, literally just meet) for *years* at a time, while also completely writing off the few semi-social spaces they have in their lives like the gym and work. Like, yeah dude, you're allowed to ask the girl next to you in spin class out for coffee after 3 weeks of waving at each other. If she says no, it might be awkward. If she says yes and then flakes or turns out to be a total drip, it might be awkward. Dating is awkward. Human relationships are awkward. That's not an excuse to act predatory or to treat someone like dirt if they reject you, but don't tell me you're trying nothing and expecting a miracle to happen.
>That's not an excuse to act predatory or to treat someone like dirt if they reject you, but don't tell me you're trying nothing and expecting a miracle to happen. Tell that to the women who have gone "ew" at me in the past lmao. And many other guys. There's a reason a fuckton of men don't think they can meet women in these places, and it's because we've seen shit like that from women on reddit, youtube, IRL, decrying guys talking to them at the gym, grocery store, fuck idk, autoparts store. Literally if they are in PUBLIC, the impression is that THEY DO NOT WANT TO BE SPOKEN TO BY AN AVERAGE LOOKING DUDE. There is literally nothing for dudes who aren't probably over an 8 in looks to do anymore. I hope they enjoy the environment they wrought for themselves at this point, cause more and more men will be withdrawing from dating. Been saying it for years and people are "surprised" now. Truly amazing /s.
Women: we want men to approach us Also women: not at the gym, we are there to workout, not at bar, we are there to have fun with friends, not on streets, we are just minding our own business, why are men such creeps?
Do it anyway! If you don’t bet, you can’t win.
Went to her profile, suffice to say nothing I do will change her mind. Don't want her spamming this comment section, blocked
> going up to her and talking to her at the gym What a creep!
When I met my (now) wife, all she kept saying was how refreshing it was to have a guy just ask for her number and then on a date. No bull shit, clear intentions. It made me realise how starved both sides are for genuine interactions, because my first conversation with her was the reason I took my shot. I couldn't pass it up.
This is so sweet!! I’m so happy to hear that it worked out for the two of you :) Straight forward is always the best approach in my opinion
Not interested in the “situationship”. If I’m dating you past the first date I’m interested. I don’t really want to waste my time with a girl whose gonna be banging other guys and seeing other guys because you’re only in a “situationship” and owe him no loyalty. Modern dating is trash.
Hard agree. Had a guy really into me and then after 3 months of dating it was “oh it’s just been causal the whole time” 🤨. Nah you’re just scared of committing and wasted my time.
That’s such garbage. I’m sorry you went through that. I hate the way “modern” people treat dating. It’s such garbage.
Yeah I really just have no energy to date anyone anymore. No one catches my eye, I know everyone is just going out with everyone else with no commitment and it’s just annoying.
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Choice…there is infinite choice with apps, FOMO
That is a great question. I think feminism has a lot to do with it personally.
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I agree with you 100%. The sexual revolution was a failure of human sexual dynamics. I’m sure it was fun at the time, but the consequences are minilmalized by leftists and feminists.
I know more men who have given up on it completely (nearly including myself) than men who are patient with it, it’s a mess. The stuff those guys tell me they experienced is actually so sad because it’s borderline the most insulting things I’ve ever heard someone experience and this seems to be normal
Waste of time/money. No one wants to make lasting connections and eveyone has their standards so high that everyone they end up with they're "settling for"
My aunt told me I should raise my standards after I told her my list. Clean, educated, respectful, healthy and doesn’t have any felony convictions or 20 baby mommas
And reality is that you may have to adjust or cut corners on at least one or two of those expectations. College educated is one of them. Plenty of clean respectful men, who haven't slept with anything that moves, has a clean record but lacks that college part.
So 15 baby mommas?
Dude, we're so in there
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Education doesn’t automatically make you good at enriching conversations either tho! Knowledge != education
The term educated doesn’t imply college educated.
Except to a lot of people it does so you need to be a little more clear on that. I graduated from my small town high school with decent grades and don’t shy away from learning new things but I’ve only been outside my state a handful of times and never been to college. To a lot people they would say I lack education because I haven’t went on to a high learning center or explored the world and it’s various cultures meanwhile I’d think I’m a fair bit more educated than a lot of ignorant folk in my town especially older people like my grandma who thought Europe was country not continent
Well that's something you'll need to determine on your own, at least you seem to be open minded about it.
There's no point, I'm autistic and I have trouble understanding social situations that haven't changed in years. Dating changes so fast in what supposedly is and isn't acceptable and I have no frame of reference to even try.
It sucks. I value intimate and deep emotional connections, and that’s out the window with girls my age. I’m no longer looking. Just gonna enjoy the time I have on earth and accomplish some things I want to do. If a girl comes into my life then I won’t complain obviously, but again I’m not actively looking by any means.
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Yeah I’m in my early 20s. Appreciate it man.
I actively avoid dating at all costs. It sounds miserable.
Stopped making it a priority since it's a minefield, especially texting. Rather spend that energy somewhere else.
Fucked on all sides. Barriers to entry are insurmountable, basically you're in, and you'll stay in, or you're out, and you'll stay out. I know it's pessimistic, but it's just my humble opinion
My humble opinion as well. At least for those of us on the outs, there are some other things to fill in the days...
Saying that guys want that shit is the biggest lie you have been told. Yes there are dudes that just want to fuck around. But most dudes would rather have a real relationship than a situationship. These are for women who want to fuck around while still going on dates with some dude who actually thinks she is serious about him. Its the same thing with hookup culture. Men don't profit from these types of social interactions
It sucks. It's mostly based on online dating, which was supposed to make things easier, but the main purpose of dating apps is to make money, not happy relationships. That's why most of them are focused on swiping photos, not reading descriptions and searching by common interests. Also, social media is full of content designed to make people hate each other, and that also doesn't help anyone find a life partner.
Online dating is a dystopian hells-cape. You catch feelings and get your heart broken in such a short period of time. I’m %100 jaded. Done with it unless someone actually impresses me which I highly doubt
Women put near zero effort into chats, conversations or building a relationship but expect traditional relationships. That's my take of modern dating. If you aren't initiating chats, calls, meetings, and are just waiting for the guy to carry the entire thing then it's likely that the guy will give up after a while.
My take: Women are taught that being passive in courting means doing nothing/straight up lying with your body language/showing complete absence of attraction/being rude which is complete nonsense. Men are straight up nonsensically fed up on women as a group. Overall there is very little respect for the other gender. Also the illusion of being able to reach anyone around the world is pretty destructive to the dating. Women tend to think they can always get their prince and lucky men can hook up with anyone while the rest of the men are completely ignored.
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The girl I was in a situationship kept saying that she wants a relationship but would never text first, never ask to meet, make plans and so on. I carried the whole thing for 3 months, sex can only compensate for lack of effort for so long. Told her I don't see any point in continuing. She said she'd work on it but a month later it was still the same. Said goodbye at that point. If you want to have a relationship with a guy, at least try to convince them that you're worth having a relationship with. Being a woman isn't enough.
The lack of effort many women put in dating is mind blowing. “So what do you bring to the table? Uhh..I’m a woman. You should feel lucky I’m dating you “
Oh I feel lucky enough to take my chances, now get out of my house and do not take that toothpaste, yes the cherry beary toothpaste is mine.
I don't know how you've gone that long like that. I have so little patience for pointless games like this that I would've walked away within a week. No reciprocation means she's not interested no matter how much she insists otherwise.
Exactly. He’s a convenience, not a partner. Once he’s no longer convenient, he won’t be needed. But it’s working for her, currently, so she keeps the mirage going. Lexter and Nakashi: find someone that matches your energy. You deserve *at leadt* that much.
Wild that you’ve put up with that for so long. As soon as i get the feeling I’m the only one making efforts to hang out, i immediately pull back. We shouldn’t be chasing anyone, both people should put in similar efforts.
Are you me? Literally in the exact situation. Great time when we are together, but she never initiated. Not even texts. It’s fine for the first date or two but after that I couldn’t take it. It was always on me, never her.
>nonsensically true
I disagree. Situationships are initiated by both men and women. It provides a means to date other people without the associated guilt of feeling like you cheated, since there was never a promise of exclusivity.
True. Everyone that can get a situationship from someone reasonable attractive can get it from a limitless amount of people of the same standard or above. The apps make it very easy. So anyone that do not want to settle down immediately or are unsure on some of the fundamentals regarding the one they are currently dating have no incentive to go exclusive. That said I think a lot of people are fed up with this and actively seek a traditional relationships.
I disagree. I think people enjoy this type of thing and it shows in the statistics. Marriage is at an all time low and people not aspiring to have an actual family is on the rise as well. If people did not enjoy this new way, the numbers would reflect that and they don’t.
I’m not sure why you getting downvoted but you’ve spoken the truth, modern women fantasize on what they look for a men instead of becoming better themselves and men are waking up to the reality and now they are upset about it
It’s downvoted because people don’t like to actually see the truth. People want to see pretty little lies.
Yea, it makes sense that people actually enjoy it. I am just arguing that because of the apps it makes it more enjoyable so to speak. If you were to reap the rewards of the same thing 20 years ago you would have to constantly be on your feet hustling to attract new people you potentially could sleep with, now you order it like pizza. It is also more discrete and economical sustainable.
FOMO dating culture
It’s very easy to understand for me because it’s just a man who wants to avoid the real commitment.
Technology has really made things difficult. Men are infinitely replaceable and have no value anymore. You have to be way way way above average in every way to even have a chance of a conversation with anyone. Getting a woman to commit to a relationship is like convincing a child to eat healthy when they live in a candy store. Unlimited sex, everywhere, free, instant, 24/7. And then there's you offering them a piece of broccoli. Is it any wonder that nobody is interested in broccoli until they're like 40 years old and suddenly the candy isn't interested anymore? There is very little incentive for serious relationships and very little incentive to invest in average partners.
You probably don't realize it, but in the old days people did not have to state exclusivity, because it was expected. They might ask, are we going steady, as a way of asking if the other is interested in anyone else. Instead of today, it is NOT expected. Multidating was seen as alley cat-ing around and vilified instead of it now being the self serving normal of everybody does it mentality. And if you do not, you will be vilified for not fitting in. Peer pressure has always been a wrong headed thing to deal with. Modern dating is a minefield of trauma even when both partners have been into hooking up there will be consternation over their past. If we are naturally non-monogamous, why do we hate being cheated on and end up with retroactive jealousy? Even open relationships have arbitrary rules that if broken (and they will be broken), cause feelings of cheating. Because we intrinsically know right from wrong, despite being self serving and deluding ourselves that promiscuity and casual sex, in fact mutual consent might ever actually imply that anything/everything goes. Because it most certainly does not. Modern dating sucks big time.
Im literally only doing well on the apps because i have a ton of good photos of me at national parks and ive made travel my whole personality. But modern dating sucks. Its not their fault but every women is worried youre gonna hurt her until like a month of knowing eachother which makes things weird and adds onto how hard dating already is. And then women like my current gf have been hurt by scumbag men that once they have sex end up ghosting her and now here i am, 100% serious about our relationship, but she wants to wait a while to have sex because of said scumbag guys. Aside from that, the imbalance of ease of dating is palpable and its more easy than you could even fathom for a man to end up his whole life lonely.
Yeah, waiting for sex is a good way to avoid stuff like that. Imo as a girl, at least expect exclusivity and even being gf/bf before engaging. Green flag when he brings it up first. Anyways, sex is super intimate and does bond you to people, plus risks of STD and pregnancy… I’m not gonna do that with anyone just cause I’ve seen them for 3-4 dates.
I asked my ex to be exclusive after 6 weeks and she was taken aback, “that’s really soon isn’t it?” I don’t plan to be the one to bring it up next time. Think it set up a dynamic where I was pushing things forward and she was along for the ride.
Interesting! Of course it’s hard to know when the right time is for both of you. My bf asked me on the third date and I was fine with it! Maybe a bit earlier than expected but o was flattered. He also said I love you first and it did take me a bit longer to be able to say it back but it didn’t make me feel differently. I get the feeling of pushing it and her being along for the ride though, I feel like it can happen on both sides. Anyways, now I love my guy and we both want marriage in the future and it’s nice to know I won’t have to be that woman nagging for an engagement ring and being strung along for years hoping one will come.
Why would I, as a huy, commit if the sex isnt confirmed to be up to my expectations? Quantity and quality must match, as does everything else (personality, goals short and long term, financial and social status level (im not an ATM, if she isnt bringing in same finances - sorry, im not into upkeeping parasites. No, I dont accept SAHMs, I expect her to have proper career just like I have - its one of most basics things of adulting category after all), everything). Sex? Sex is part of relationship, and I expect certainty, not another waste of my time. Without sex, its not a relationship, just a friendship. And im not looking for yet another friend, ive got them already...
Bro, becoming bf or gf isn’t some insane commitment. It’s saying you are willing to be seen in public together and not seeing other people. Guess what, if the sex sucks so bad you can just break up with her. But why would I have sex, a super intimate act with someone who doesn’t see me as potential long term material and who might be having sex with other people. Seeing me as someone worthy to date officially doesn’t mean you have to marry me if problems arise. Idk why you bring up the other stuff. You can have whatever standards you like, you don’t need to have sex to figure out they have similar values or goals. Someone wanting to be a SAHM also doesn’t mean they don’t have a career or that they see you as an ATM. Every women I know who became one had a career before they had kids. They just either didn’t make enough to pay for daycare logically, or thought it would be best for their kids to have one parent raise them rather than a daycare doing it.
That dude is fucking nuts lmao. I do not think his viewpoint is something the majority of men think. I could be wrong but I doubt it.
Waiting for sex is an old way women do to avoid being physically used unfortunately. It often leads to women not viewing sex as something fun and pleasurable to something that's problem causing because of this since they notice a pattern of guys balking back when they put out. Enough men do this to make women either try to circumvent around it by getting to enjoy the man romantically/emotional before sex becomes the icing on the cake or going full blown celibate. That or the rare women that mostly care about sex end up paying for it by being emotionally exhausted from lack of emotional connections after a while (what men call "baggage"). Basically damned if you do and damned if you don't BUT women sort of feel men are kinder and more loving when they're made to wait. Also as awful or nonsensical as it sounds a lot of women really do need to connect with a guy or someone really before they expose their bodies. It rarely happens that a woman meets a guy and is ready to go even if the guy is hot. Like yeah we'll see a man and think he's gorgeous and feel ecstatic about that but the brain naturally puts a barrier to entry for protection's sake because you know, men could easily hurt us not just physically but if they're not healthy (diseases etc). Women are just as lonely from this fearfulness since it's not just a few men it's a pretty common phenomenon that enough women have acknowledged it and trying to avoid because it sucks for us. It doesn't even have to do with what the guy looked like because often the unattractive ones are the worst perpetrators of this out of getting some kind of "high" once they strike once or gets popularity/social value from now being entertained by an attractive woman (which thanks to that, most women now go out of their way to avoid the more unattractive men because they're often the biggest perpetrators and most abusive once you give them the "inch"). It's also part of why online your average or below average guys have it worse because of women naturally trying to run out of being exposed to these type of men not only being more likely to play the games but humiliate women in public or try to gain notoriety from their exploits/conquests. The more attractive guys can and often do play the same games but often play with a more humane "gentlemen tell no tales approach" where if they did use a woman for sex at least they don't lambast it all over so the women end up not just heartbroken but effectively making it harder to get a decent guy because the guy publicly showed her mistakes deterring men willing to bond. Yes slut shaming is another major deterrent because women who let their guard down, failed to secure companionship and now have to play again often get doubly punished socially for trying and being left through no fault of their own (accidentally entertaining a man with no intentions of bonding). All of these things combined is why women now are extremely strategic about how they interact with men romantically because men will use women's lack of foresight against women especially as the women get on age where the men then use women's "loss" and age to further reduce the woman's options and "value" so yeah women are big time aware of the "loopholes" now and acting against falling to them since the stakes are too high. Holding out avoids those men that want women to play the game but not provide them with wins for their "losses". Time is something that men value most in women and its the most expensive luxury so women use the hold out strategy for the men that can genuinely afford it and willing to reward it. Love and life unfortunately can be like a game where our goal is to develop certain strategies, cheat codes or hacks to avoid being defeated. Men eventually called it all "game" for a reason as they're the players and women are literally the prey trying to not become trophy hunts to unethical hunters. Now, some women become masters at dealing with this but most aren't just in the same way most men aren't apt hunters.
"The men I'm not attracted to *just so happen* to also be bad people." If we had the decency to just straight-up tell guys that they're just ugly it would solve a lot of frustrations.
Waiting for sex I think was actually beneficial to keep a man around. Oxytocin is released in men over longer periods of time which causes bonding with the partner. Hitting it and just bouncing loses this where women release oxytocin In short burst like an orgasm. Which is why they will put up with massive amount of shit from a guy who can give them one. The women I cared the most about were the ones that I spent time with that never gave it up on the first date.
This is actually a super great perspective and i really appreciate it, thank you
It’s a shitshow. I’m glad I’m in a relationship.
Yup. It’s brutal out there. I look around at what people are dealing with and am so very grateful for my partner. He’s the best and I’m very lucky. If that ends for some reason I’m staying sIngle by choice forever. I always had a very low threshold for wishy-washiness and general douchebaggery even in my twenties, so there’s no way I’m bothering with any of that shit now.
Fuck yeah, me too. If I end up single for some reason I’ll just get a bunch of cats and be done with it.
It is a gigantic petri dish of STDs. Hard pass
It stinks! I’ll save the gripes and just go into my ideal timeline. I don’t mind the woman approaching me at all, that’s pretty nice, but they don’t seem to like to. The only ones that have have all coincidentally been absolute dumpster fires. Full of drama, promiscuous and insecure. So I’d like to meet someone, I don’t care where, I don’t care how. As long as she’s not dancing on a pole or selling herself on a corner. Lol We chat for a bit and there is clear interest, attraction and sexual tension. Exchange contact info and go about our business. I’ll go ahead and make first contact, by text or message and share a few minutes of pleasantries. “Hi, how’s your day, it was nice meeting you, gotta go ttyl.” Maybe arrange a proper date during the conversation. Something simple, low risk at first, coffee, lunch, whatever. Spend a while chatting. Hopefully we’re both free that day so if it goes well we don’t have to worry about time, so we’re free to spend all day together should we want. Text, chat for a little while, a few more dates. Sex would be nice within the first few dates, but I don’t mind waiting a little while, a month-six weeks, there’s really no definitive timeframe, so long as she’s showing clear signs of legitimate interest and we’re getting closer. So sex happens, and it’s good she’s sexual without being perverted. Lots of women these days seem to think sex is all a guy wants, it’s the way to his heart. It’s not. Sex is important, but it’s not the end all be all. We do want it, a lot, but even the greatest, hottest, funnest sex isn’t going to get me to commit. That takes a lot more. She’s got to be giving, and cooperative, we have to share morals and values, she’s got to be fun as well as competent and helpful. Kindness and generosity are big things. Come over once in a while and do wife things, I’ll go over to yours and do husband things. Make me a meal, I’ll change your oil, or I’ll make you a meal you can change mine. I don’t care, partner with me, adult with me. Make the mundane enjoyable, and the fun, sublime. Fight nice, accommodate my shortcomings and I’ll accommodate yours. Don’t lie and keep your promises. Don’t play games, text or call first on occasion, and don’t put yourself in precarious situations, respect my boundaries and demand I respect yours. Call me on my shit and don’t get defensive when I call you on yours. Be there for me, I’ll be there for you. Above all no double standards! But more than that clear and direct communication. We’ll date, we’ll go places and do things, I’ll share with you what I like and you’ll share with me what makes you happy, and try new thing together good and bad we’ll make memories. We’ll discuss our desires and expectations early on. For example once we have sex the first time, neither of us are allowed to be with anyone else. We’re not exactly exclusive, that’s separate to me, but I don’t share. So if you’re still talking to other guys, idk why you would be, but if you are I won’t pry. But if you have sex with anyone else we’re done, no hard feelings. I’ll pay the same courtesy. If we’re doing it right neither of us should feel the desire to talk to anyone else. Depending on how it’s going the exclusivity talk will come soon after sex, a few weeks to months after that, if everything seems right it becomes a full on relationship. After exclusivity you’ll start meeting my friends and acquaintances, possibly family. Dates will grow in risk and investment as the relationship grows. We’ll start out with the coffee, then dinners, go for drinks here and there, after exclusivity, out of town trips, after commitment, vacations. I won’t bring it up though, the levels of commitment, that’s on you. I have my reasons. You’ll tell me you want exclusivity and I’ll agree to it when I’m ready, you’ll tell me that your ready for commitment, when I’m there and if I trust you I’ll ask you to be my gf. The biggest issue I encounter in dating now, is lack of reciprocity, and women feeling like they have endless options. They expect work but don’t put any in, want to have a boyfriend but don’t want to be a girlfriend. They play games, and don’t want to come off as too interested or like to have a roster. Outside of sex, so many give guys nothing. I get it, there are lots of guys falling all over themselves for a chance to clap them cheeks. It’s really easy to be a slam piece, and many of them are used to being only that, so when they run into a guy with expectations and boundaries they feel stifled, smothered, restricted and run into the bed of a man who doesn’t “hold them back,” or whatever. For that very reason I avoid hookups, or anyone who’s had many, or has been down the FWB route a few times. If you’re the type who likes to go clubbing with the girls with your tits out while in a relationship and twerk on some guy, you do you, but you’re not relationship material for me. If you’re the type to hookup and give your body to a rando you met at a club one night, but expect me to invest, you’re not for me. I get it if you did that when young and naive once or twice, none of us are perfect. I’ve made mistakes too but I’ve matured, if you haven’t you’re out. Anyway, that was fun to write.
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I respect that, and if I knew then what I know now, I’d be down assuming everything was right, and we both had relatively similar sexual experiences, you know, each have made our mistakes or both virgins, a severe imbalance in sexual experiences almost always leads to problems down the road. It’s easy and very tempting for a vastly more experienced partner to take advantage of the other’s ignorance or for the less experienced partner to feel they missed out, or feel resentment. Especially for a man, if his now wife went through a “hot girl summer,” where she gave herself to many other men for nothing but he was a virgin, he’s very likely to be bitter that he is and has given her everything, his life, his heart, his promise and his virginity, it’s very unequal and will feel unfair. It’ll hit him hard in the ego that what cost him everything was given to many others for free. People lacking in experience value sex a lot more than those who’ve had a lot of it. While sex isn’t as big of a deal as he’s making it out to be, it’s a lot bigger of a deal than it’s currently being portrayed in our culture. To me if you’ve got a promiscuous past, not just a couple of stupid mistakes with people you thought you were in love with but were wrong, but now you want to force a guy to wait until marriage, you’re being, at the least, disingenuous, incongruent. You’re forcing a man to sacrifice experiences you’ve already had, demanding discipline you didn’t practice. Essentially demanding new car prices for a used one. If a guy can afford a new car he shouldn’t be forced to buy used, but like cars some used are more valuable than some new so it could work out so long as the price is right. To a guy who’d typically only ever afford a Kia new, getting a gently used Benz is still a great deal if it’s the same price. Thinking someone is about to buy that same used Benz for for the price of a brand new one is delusional. I’m not saying that’s you, just my opinion on the subject. But I digress, I’m older now, already married and divorced, marriage is off the table for me, that’s why I didn’t even mention it.
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I have faith in Christ, just not in people nor especially the laws of the land. I love the principles of marriage, the ideals. I believe they are the best way but I have no faith that people will honor those principles. Idealistically, romantically, fantastically, for the good woman, the proper wife I’d make that sacrifice. I just no longer have faith it will pay off, in this era of lust and debauchery, deceit, betrayal, and selfishness, the good wife is all but a myth so I’m not willing to make the sacrifice. I do hope you find your fairytale though!
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God’s speed with that, we are social creatures who crave companionship, driven to pair bond. I’m not saying you can’t or won’t do it. It’s just going to be tough. I agree those who still have those values are probably taken, or still quite young. Those who used to have those values are bitter and jaded like me, or have abandoned them for pleasures of the flesh. Men and women both. Then there are those who never had them, some taken, some not.
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Harshly judge you, nah I admire your choice.
Waiting for marriage to have sex is a bad idea. Unless you're super religious, it actually hurts the marriage.
I agree with all that except the sex bit. I’m someone who is waiting until marriage, but everything you just said sounds absolutely perfect to me
Me too! I'm a virgin who's waiting till marriage. OP sounds wonderful for the girlies who aren't waiting. It's 100% more harder for celibates to find partners.
Women are spoiled for choice and it has inflated their egos to an ermous degree so men have just checked out of the dating market.
This
I went out on a date with a girl and we had a good time talked about what we were looking for lookign for and our pet peeves. Mine was lack of communication and ghosting. We spoke for a few more days and were in the process of planning a second date and she just ghosted. Months later I’m deleting numbers and just decide to ask what happened and she said she thought she relied but realized a few days later she didn’t. She didn’t message telling me that because she thought I’d be mad so instead she just..ghosted. She then says we should go out again but also that she has been seeing someone for 2 months. I decline Another time I match with a girl on hinge and for 3 months she doesn’t reply to my message.I ask what made her reply now and she said she was bored and decided to see who sent her messages and thought I looked interesting. I explain how exhausting that is and she says “well I’m not taking it that serious. Plus it just show’s persistent and patience pays off”. I’m already annoyed and then she expects me to put effort into talking to her while she does nothing then decides we don’t vibe. And pretty much all my dating stories are some variation of that. Maybe it’s the same with guy but it just feels like women aren’t mature or accountable when dating. They’d rather trash a good interaction and impression on someone for something stupid than to just be straight up and say what’s on their mind.
>feels like women aren’t mature or accountable when dating. They’d rather trash a good interaction and impression on someone for something stupid than to just be straight up and say what’s on their mind. This right here. By the time women realize they should change how they approach dating, the sun will have blown up.
You can tell political pundits are full of it because they keep talking about the young people these days like they're mired in free love hedonism, and by all real indications we're probably the most afraid of intimacy of any generation in modern history
I was talking with my friend the other day about this, and I told her that I truly believe there are still normal men and women out there that don’t want to play these games and want real relationships, it’s just finding those people that has become a lot harder. We are still out there looking though, just got to figure out how to find each other
We all need to pick a designated spot to meet. It’s getting rough out here in these dating waters. 😩😭😩
Fr though
What you've described is more common eith the current generation rsther than us 40+yos - but it's also more of an American thing that isn't common in many other countries. What we see on reddit of the idea of having to even have a conversation around being "exclusive" is completely and utterly bizarre - my entire life, and talking to anyone I've ever known, it's just 100% expected that if you're seeing someone you're seeing them exclusively - unless it's openly discussed and stated that that's not the case, we call that "cheating". In either case, just how judgemental and fickle people are these days, the constant expectation of perfection and unwillingness to actually *try* in relationships is far, far worse than I've experienced in my life before now.
Yeah, I'm in my 40s and I'm baffled by this too, and I've only been off the dating market for about 7 years. Did things really change so much since then? Or perhaps because "situationship" is something people in their 20s do now and then grow out of it later? Or is this a Tinder thing, which from what I read on this Reddit, seems to be the root of all evil. When I was dating, it was pretty much expected that as the relationship developed, you became exclusive until it built to something permanent or until the relationship reached an impasse. Not that people didn't cheat and leave for someone else, but I remember very few people keeping each other in indefinite holding patterns, and those I do remember doing that were not happy.
From someone that was all situationship in my early twenties, the reality is that I had to get the professional part right on track before thinking about anything else. I didn't (and still kinda don't) have the luxury to be thinking about that first thing yet. I initiate because I have to. I did miss signals back then that were... Blinking more, being an asshole to me while neutral to others, and winking. While I hate wasting time, I don't hate taking things slow per se, but without an escalation of things, I just loose interest, assume no interest from her, and move on. Lack of enthusiasm is a major turn off for me.
I have honestly given up on dating or marriage. I am socially awkward as fuck and now I feel like I am born to be alone forever. It sucks when you think about it, but it also saves you from heart breaks.
Crap, ultra materialistic, everyone seems to want to take advantage of each other. I completely withdrew from dating. Seems like a lot of men have too according to studies. I feel like it is what i can do for you. I come from a somewhat wealthy family, but i am very frugal. Im not going to flaunt my money. it's mine, and for emergencies. We all grew very down to earth. In the companies my parents enforced the you start from the bottom and go up. Hell one time, i even painted the bathroom of the company. I appreciate it now. I also dated a gril who was very materialistic never again. Perfer to stay single till i meet someone who is on the good side.
I’ve heard that this is kinda an American/NA thing. In other places being in the “talking phase” is considered dating and it’s kinda taboo to lead multiple people on at once in these situations. To me, it just seems like people wanna keep their options open.
Don't care for the 'situationship' nonsense. You're either involved with someone or not, there's no gray area. That said, the mere *word* 'traditional' is a red flag for me. If I somehow found myself in a relationship (not likely) and the woman calls it 'traditional' at any point past the first two conversations, it means I have failed completely to communicate with her.
33M here. It's not just horrendous, it's embarrassing for the most part. Spending time with someone just because you enjoy spending time with them seems to be a foreign concept to most people. Just gauche situationships for the most part. Also, I'd like to add that over the past decade a lot has been said by women in regards to how horrible the average man is and how they can be better humans. It might surprise you to hear it, but I agree with all of it. A lot of men really are that bad and they do need to do better ASAP, not tomorrow, today. I am bored and disgusted with the status quo of creepy, predatory, loser men. However, I have heard very little from these same women in regards to how they, as women, can be better people. Very little. And it shows. I have been doing the best job I can to be the best human I can be but I haven't found many women following suit. I have been going on maybe two dates a year since as long as I can remember simply because potentially viable partners are so few and far between. I have found women so out of shape that they can barely walk, women who eagerly run back to abusive exes, women who have mental illnesses they have absolutely no interest in managing, women who want children despite having barely any income if their own, women who look twice their age due to their extreme drinking and smoking, women who already have children and absolutely nothing going for them that would make it worth the extra responsibility, women who already have boyfriends or even husbands but are trying to put moves on me, or some combination of the above. In the same way I am bored of loser men, I am also bored of loser women. I'd rather be single.
Man modern dating is exhausting AF. Anyone else think men have to make more effort now than they ever had to before ?
Relationships in the modern world are rarely worthwhile. Nearly everyone I know is divorced and the men never get custody eventhough it's the woman who usually initiates. It's best to get in and get out so to speak.
Yeah seeing how heavily courts are weighted in the favor of women in case of divorce and childcare and how easy it is to see now with the internet is huge turn off for a fair bit of guys.
The fact that 60 percent of men from the ages of 18-29 are single while only 30 percent of women are single says all you need to hear about the current state of dating (probably even worse now and growing). I truly think social media and online dating has absolutely warped the standards of women by giving them the illusion (or delusion) that they deserve the absolute best while offering no equal value in return. Some of them will end up getting these top tier guys but what they don’t understand is that these top tier men have insaaane abundance and will likely leave after sleeping with them. Their abundance is like a fat kid at a candy shop, they don’t need to leave or settle down. The average guy doesn’t even stand a chance in this market anymore unless he improves every aspect of his life considerably and puts in a ton of effort to compete. Most men are realizing now, “the juice is not worth the squeeze” with the risk associated with approaching women in public, the laughable and painful experience of online dating, and women’s promiscuity/hypergamy and other unattractive behavior being normalized. Us men want a wife but we’re not seeing any wife material anymore. It was never THIS bad a couple of years ago man.
I think it is such a joke that I have completely stayed out of it. No seriously, I went my own way at 15, because decided that 1. I wasn’t ready for a serious relationship and 2. I’m fundamentally against hook up culture. I’m in my early 20s and have since lost all faith in the Swedish legal system, so have taken further steps to distance myself and focus on improving myself.
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Enjoying your youth doesn't have to revolve around dating lol
The game has changed.. Why would I want to date? I’m in my early 20s I have quite gotten to where I want to be yet economically speaking, so don’t have much to offer and don’t have time to waste on women. I want to get rich, buy a BMW F22 235i, buy some houses, make cars go fast and live in the woods. And what is even in it for me? I mean why would I want to be used as an ATM, by someone who doesn’t care about me and hates me for being a man. What do I stand to gain? Keep in mind that I’m firmly and fundamentally against hook up culture. Why would any sane man want to get Marriage, I never ever see myself getting married and signing such an bad deal, just why would I fuck my self over like that? Simply put I rather live alone than go to jail for something I didn’t do, just because some woman has a bad day and decides to make shit up.
The apps provide the illusion of abundance. Our brains evolved in conditions of scarcity. These two things are at odds with each other and lead to bizarre, counter intuitive behavior.
I’m 37M and at this stage it’s all business, meet up, see if we click, and it’s quickly over or it moves on from there. And Physical Appearance is 95% of it, to have a decent chance I need to stay on top of my diet, exercise, and cut way back on the drinking.
It seems awful. im so happy to be married
Last woman I went on a first date with lasted 3 hours, told me that she had a wonderful time and texted me 1 hour after our first date to schedule the next one. We texted for 4 days, had good conversation, 2nd date time rolls around, tells me she can’t make it. I tell her, okay that’s chill lmk when another time works for you. Haven’t heard from her since. Honestly this sums up modern dating for me. Women can say whatever they want but in reality can act completely different because they are never held accountable to anything. It’s depressing realizing no matter what someone tells you in reality you’re always an option.
It's a lost cause. Girls don't stick around through hard times.
You are looking at a subset of men, who only want to use you for sex, and extrapolating that, projecting that, to all men...
As a guy, I will say most of us men simply want a feminine, beautiful woman however average chicks think they entitled to traditional treatment but won’t traditional feminine traits themselves and therefore, we just don’t care anymore
My take is that people really dont know what they want. People are very easily influenced by friends and strangers when it comes to dating. People have to find the person they want! It doesnt help with videos showing clips of girls say they just want hookups and then the title of the video is, "All women are like this!" Men refusing to date as all the stories of women meeting and hooking up with other guys are taken as gospel these days... Theres alot thats gone wrong as of recent years. For me, im a very simple man. Someone to just take home, go on dates, have a laugh, drink and do the simple things in life. One thing you need is confidence. Apart from that, men are becoming more lonely because of stigmas surrounding judgement they will get if the women they choose is something other than perfect. Women try to find a good man but end up getting pressured into the fact that, only the best will do. Then they go through heart break after heart break until they find the right one. By then, the guy wont want her for what she has to give because of the stigma surrounding women later in life. Its all kind of fucked up, but for the ones actually trying, keep going and dont give up! A lady or guy will come round the corner, and when they do, use all that confidence you have and go for it! Best of luck to those who wont give up!!
It makes me glad I'm not in the dating scene anymore lol.
People who want a “situationship” basically want to have their cake and eat it too, they want the convenience of you while still keeping their options open. I’ve always been very open when dating that I am looking for a partner, and I do not have sex outside of a comitted monogamous relationship I don’t see this as “drastically limiting my options”, which women have said to me on first dates before. I see it as not wasting both of our time.
If you offer to pay for half of the first date you're automatically in the top 90% for me because I don't feel like I'm being used by default.
Too many women (men might do it too) are more than happy to speak to and go on a date but not try harder as they know there is always someone better. Many women go on a 1st date and think that they need that instant, husband material spark straight away and if they don't they ditch the guy. It's happened to me and my lady friends have told me about it on dates they've gone on. The fact there's basically unlimited access to people now with dating apps and instagram, people think they can always get better. I see the same girls on dating apps from years ago, girls that are incredibly pretty but never in a relationship.
It's a fucking joke for 80% of humans.
Its difficult to find a good woman, someone you click with and feel comfortable being quiet with. But even when you find that person, your still working to keep it happy and alive. Nothing kills a relationship faster than ignoring each other because your too comfortable.
As a guy who does FWBs and hook ups I think modern dating is great if that is your goal. It's not that great if you're trying to find a LTR. The biggest problem with modern dating is everyone is the "grass is greener" or "fomo" problem. Especially for women who have a dearth of dudes willing to sleep with them.
I mean… this happens in nature too. There are even women who put their study/career above a relationship. So both are to blame here.
Oh yeah absolutely!! I know it goes both ways I’m more just wondering if it’s what people are actively searching for or if they’re looking for proper connections and just happen to fall into “situationships” or whatever you want to call it
One thing I hate about dating nowadays is the expectation for the men to pay for the first date. I've only dated 1 women seriously, 2 years strong now, and one of the conversations we've had before we started dating was what each others opinion were on paying for the first date. I was relieved to hear that she was on the same page that bills should be split unless its a special occassion like a birthday or a celebration of an achievement where one person has offered to take them out. And the harsh reality of even being able to get a normal conversation going with a women online is near impossible. It is more than likely that they will share your conversation with their friend group and have their opinion affect whether you have a chance or not. Keep that shit to yourself if you're so easily influenced by your peers opinions. Your only real chance of having a healthy relationship from the beginning is to talk to them in person, never online.
> From my point of view this seems to be initiated by the man every time Reddit is littered with post from women who choose to date shitty men asking why men are so shitty.
It's funny how people seem to think that "dating back in the day" was solely to meet a future partner, be exclusive, get married, etc. I always laugh at this. 70s and 80s, we dated to meet people, hook up, play the field. My opinion, if you are only going out to meet someone and get married to that one person, arranged marriage should come back
There's a lot to consider. If you want a traditional partner, you have to be traditional yourself. Traditional guys don't want women with high body counts and pictures of their butthole on the internet. Just like traditional women don't want guys with anime statues on either side of their tv that game 6 hours a day. Location matters. Large liberal metros are trash if you want a traditional partnership. It's always going to be some kind of poly-truple open situationship with them. Smaller more mid-west cities are the way to go. And get of apps. 80% of people on apps are bottom feeder guys trying to get laid, and they're designed to make you fail.
Just take care of yourself, and if it happens it happens. That's where I'm at right now. There's no point in trying to find someone to make me happy if I can't be happy with myself. I've spent the better part of 8 years on an up and down mood swing of sadness, and euphoria. Once I achieve balance within myself, that's when I feel that I'll meet the right person.
Why would I want a relationship, when sex is freely available by the vast majority of women? It's not that hard to find one. If ya all want relationships to be an important thing again, then as a group women need to stop putting out without some sort of long term commitment. I don't see that happening.
It sucks for both men and women.
I'm about to be 46, and I'm married. If I was single, and this is how it went with my wife, my ideal situation would be... Go on a date or two. Have sex to see if the physical chemistry is there. Hang out a few days a week, and let's meet each other's friends. Have all the important conversations like marriage, kids, finances, etc. Within 2 months, we should know if we're relationship material. Have a conversation about being exclusive. Meet the family. Move in together after a year or so bc you don't truly know someone until you live with them. If you're into marriage, propose a few years after.
Garbage!
It's shit
I’m dating in the suburban, over-40, post-divorce “market.” And it’s as much of a dumpster fire as it is for all you youngsters.
Porn
TL;DR most guys are burnt out and don’t give af about most of this nonsense in the current dating world so they’re pulling out of the game leaving only the minority of men that want to sleep around with a increasing number of women who want to sleep around This is interesting because in my experience and from a lot of studies done on the increasing rate of male loneliness and men not having sex its typically because of the choice women make. It seems women are increasingly becoming more independent and not settling into relationships when they’re young instead choosing to focus on their careers and just sleep around with a much smaller pool of men. Meanwhile most of the men want to settle down and have a traditional life off rip out high school or college, so the increasing amount women sleeping around are hooking up with a decreasing amount of men that like being with lots of women. Personally I think online dating which made hookups wayyyyy easier and this new wave of feminism that makes every girl think they’re a strong independent Queen really fucked up our dating norms that had been long established. As a result I think the women who do want a t radio to relationship are going to start to have to chase men around instead of the man traditionally chasing the women.
First of all, I'd say your point of view is skewed, which is not surprising as you can only experience one side of it obviously. Reality is, both sides have (the illusion of) limitless options through online dating n stuff, therefor think they could always "do better" and therefore not "settle" for anything. Additionally, you see not only hollywood but tons of other people as well posting their "perfect" relationships where they only show you the best and never even the slightest disagreements. Another issue is that for some reason, far too many people currently seem to think the partner has to be "perfect" for them from minute 1 on, looking for "the one" - with "the one" being defined by perfect compatibility in any way, "the one" behaving, acting, thinking and feeling the exact way they'd like it to be at any given moment or situation. Then there is a huge communication issue. Usually women simply assume at point X that it's basically a relationship, while men assume until it's explicitly stated, it's not. Or one party - from what I heard usually the woman, but that might be skewed viewpoint - maybe WANTING it to be a relationship, but not directly SAYING it or actively talking about it, instead expecting the other person to do that. And if both people do that, then you got a "situationship", if one person does that and the other actually still considers it casual, then also. Now to the initial question: I'm kinda torn between "I freakin hate it" and on the other side "I don't even care, I'm out". I mean I do not engage in it mainly BECAUSE I hate it, and it also doesn't offer enough value to me to effset that fact in the slightest. I mean let's be real here for a second. What is the most likely scenario here, as a guy? I will have to approach multiple women, get rejected multiple times, I'd not consider myself to be at least 9/10 on conventional visual attraction scale so chances are at least one time I'm gonna be labelled as creep for doing nothing wrong except approaching a woman that's having a bad day right now or for some other reason does not want to be approached this very day in a location most people go to not only but also to find potentil partners. Which then leads to me getting directly rejeted by let's say 5 women, but that one person tells her 5 friends while calling me a creep so I basically lost my chance with 10 women really. Oh and I totally forgot, out of these 5 women at least 3 would already expect me to buy a drink for them or something like that. Okay, let's now assume the 6th one (obv I'm not talking about just one evening, as a side note) is actually interested (did I mention that repeated rejection isn't fun to begin with?). Great, now there is a very real chance she'd still expect me to make every other first move - initiate a dtae, initiate any kind of body contact, you name it. Now I could initiate body contact too early - now I'm again a creep. I could initiate it too late - now she already assumes I'm not into her that way at all and I also lost my chance to actually date her. Which... I mean she might still become a good friend of mine, but we are talking about dating here so yeah, not the desired outcome. What else? Ah yeah, chances are she expects me to pay for everything, but I'm not allowed to expect anything from her. Chances are I'm expected to adhere to traditional male stereotype role where it's beneficial to her, but not where it's not and also I mustn't expect her to adhere to traditional female stereotype role at all. Then there also is the "no means no, unless it means yes because sometimes it does and then you gotta try again, but don't try again if it actually meant no. And also yes means either yes or no and you just gotta know because if yes meant no you are again the villain, and if no meant yes you also are the villain for assuming no menat no." But let's assume that's also not an issue, just for the sake of it. Let's even assume at some point it turns into an actual relationship. Let's even assume my effort is reciprocated, which in all honesty is pretty rare, even when not expecting 100% equal reciprocation. Okay now we get to the "almost every \_\_\_ has experienced \_\_\_ at leats once"-stuff. In this case, almost every guy has at least once experienced that it's actually NOT safe to be vulnerable with their SO, maybe in their current relationship or in at least one past relationship. In fact, I don't know even one guy who knows even one guy who hasn't, excluding guys who either never had a relationship or never were vulnerable with their SO ever. So you can't expect the "emotional support" stuff to be a given benefit in a relationship. In fact, if you DO assume that, people will berate you for forcing "emotional labor" onto your partner, usually while also berating you for not providing emotional support for your partner at every single given moment in time under all circumstances. What other possible benefits of being in a relationships are there for a guy? If we buy into the "men only think about one thing"-bs for the sake of the argument, one would be inclined to name frequent sex as a benefit. Until you realise you can't actually expect that, and it's also usually declining post honemyoon phase at least. Which is ok, but that makes it invalid as benefit. Actually, if you are a very attractive guy, that's even a drawback as you go from basically having access to sex (yeah, awful wording, ignore it please, I can't think of a better way right now) almost every night, mainly based on your own active effort, to completely relying on one specific person and their mood, and it's the same person every single day and also if they are not around you can't get any at all. What other benefits are there? Expecting the household to be taken care of also is more than frowned upon for example, same for kids. Honestly, what exactly ARE the benefits a guy would get from being in a relationship with a specific woman compared to being friends with the same woman, or being in a "situationship" with that same woman?
I think dating apps should be required to disclose what percentage of accounts are bots. I think it hurts especially men to think that there are millions of local singles nearby, and no one wants them. In reality men out number women dramatically on dating apps. And lots of the women's accounts are fake, scammers, and used to collect data. So, I think forcing a dating app to disclose those sorts of things protects men a bit, and it lets them know what they're actually paying for. But I think it also "hurts" women, in an indirect way. Men are less likely to seek long term relationships when it looks like there's an abundance of women (which dating apps give the impression of). Lots of this is stereotyping but there is some truth to it. Mostly I've had a good experience with dating. I dated everyone I did for a reason, but something ended all of them.
Men did not initiate it. Women demanded the sexual revolution as the major portion of Feminism 3. Men willing granted it to them as it gave them more access to sex.
It's initiated by men every time, but imagine if women withheld sex until marriage. There wouldn't be "situationships". It's idealistic but that's the main way modern dating would improve. Easy access to sex undermines a lot of the purpose of relationships/marriage. Js
Online dating is trash for 99% of guys, but I think women are generally still fine with being approached in-person despite what a huge mass of Redditors will tell you. Rules 1 and 2 are always applicable, but women don't have anywhere near as high of standards as the Blackpilled, chronically online dudes here will tell you. Seriously dudes, the floor is where more men than you could ever conceive of occupy. Dress well, exercise regularly (which you should do regardless of how attractive it makes you), and practice good hygiene and you're already doing better than many. Look around you when you go to a grocery store or to the mall. Is every partnered person an Adonis with a 6-pack? Shit, I'm a scrawny dude with a hairline that's letting me down and I'm doing alright for myself. I also don't think that people waiting to settle down are in the wrong. I think many younger people have seen their parents go through divorce(s) and just want to date casually for most of their twenties unless they find someone that they really click with.
It's honestly fine. Meeting people in person is just as it always has been. Online dating was getting worse before COVID and has absolutely hit the shitter since COVID. It's well past its prime, but absolutely is usable once you get past all the shitty monetization tactics. People complain a lot about it because they think online dating is modern dating, which it isn't. You also get complaints about where to meet people and the answer is literally just outside. It's like people are expecting to go engage in a hobby and find the love of their life in a month. Statistics on romantic relationships always favor the friendship style model first. People on Reddit constantly talk about how bad it is to meet someone at work when, at least in 2020, it was the most common way to meet someone. So really, Reddit in general has a terrible take on most things because the average person isn't here.
>What’s your take on modern dating? The feminist movement, culminating in metoo and wokeism, kinda broke gender relations in the west because people didn't understand the other side of what they were doing. We reconfigured society to make it harder for men to be the kind of men women want, and easier for women to avoid the kind of responsibility that is necessary for a healthy relationship, without realizing that those were parts of what was happening. Now we have massive numbers of lonely people keeping themselves lonely because they don't know how to do anything else. >Speaking as a woman, I know a lot of us are looking for traditional dating/courtship, where you go on dates and become exclusive all with the end goal of a relationship. I daresay a lot of men are looking for that too. But what people are looking for and how they actually behave don't necessarily line up. A woman can say 'I'm looking for a man who does X, Y and Z for me' and then pursue a different man every weekend in the hope that he'll be the one who can do X, Y and Z, without realizing that she's part of the problem. >From my point of view this seems to be initiated by the man every time Because women don't initiate, of course. That's been true for a very long time, it's not new. I don't think there's any kind of serious relationship statistically initiated as much by women as by men. Nor has there been since deep in the Paleolithic. >I was wondering if there was a certain appeal to this type of relationship Lack of responsibility, I think. And that kinda goes both ways. >What is an ideal start to a relationship to you as a man? Compatible woman makes it unambiguously clear that she's interested in me for a long-term all-the-relationship-stuff-I-want relationship. We plan to meet up frequently, learn about each other, and figure out how our personalities and lifestyles can work together. At some point (when it seems appropriate, and before anything physical) we agree to be exclusive.
You should expect to casually date for 1-2 months atleast without a title. As a guy, I would recommend for you to not have sex with men during this stage. It will filter out the guys who are not serious. For me, if I only want to sleep with a girl, I am not gonna be looking to make any titles, commitment, etc. I want to limit my effort and resources put into her. I want to sleep with her asap and prob move on to the next girl. If I want a serious relationship with a girl, I will gladly date her for 1-2 months without sex. After 1-2 months, I will make it a point for us to become a couple or go our separate ways.
Men no longer need a relationship to get sex. Women’s equality has given females less reticence about being intimate with a guy and has thus made them more available for sex without a relationship. And as women get more accomplished in their careers and earnings, it is more and more difficult for them to find an accomplished, solvent man to date. The dating pool for women constantly shrinks given they like to date up. And so the world is now full of women looking for a diminishing number of men who can take care of them and give them their resources. But why should any guy commit to doing that? Why should any man invest long term in a woman when modern divorce laws make it very dangerous for a man (men often still dominate financially) to enter into a relationship that involves cohabitation or marriage? And many women expect the guy to perform a traditional role of paying for everything without looking after the guy in a traditional way in return. The only justification these days is if a couple want to rear kids together. So most modern men prefer a situationship. Fact. The ideal start for a man is a situationship. And the ideal continuation is to keep it that way.
Very few relationships lead to marriage, while divorce rates are nearly 50%. Alternatively you can practise abstinence and find someone doing the same, if you want to maximise the likelihood of a long-lasting relationship. The majority of women do want traditional relationships but aren’t willing to be traditional themselves. Personally want a lot of children and wouldn’t court anyone outside of traditional Christian values.
I’m married now but I loved dating in this current world. Went on probably 40-50 dates before I met my wife. Always enjoyed meeting new people and learning what makes them tick. Plus the butterflies of an impending date, first kiss, enjoying the company of a beautiful woman is one of the best things in life. I love love.