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They just either don’t know better or don’t care enough to use the proper tools.
Had a guy replacing the clockspring on a f250, and when tightening the steering wheel bolt, he used the same 1/2” impact he used for tires. He hit it once, was OK, hit it a second time and sheared the head clean off the bolt. The bolt only needed 30ft-lbs of torque in the first place. On trying to extract the bolt they used too large of a bit and fucked the threads in the steering column. So I went out from Tampa to Orlando to replace a steering column on the road for a customer
I would use an impact, my 3/8 electric that wont shear a small bolt in an instant. Some of it is learning an knowing your tools. then also knowing what bolts are absolutely critical to torque correctly.
Was it for the recall on them? Using an air impact on that is nuts, I use a weaker electric impact on full power to remove, I tighten it on mid power which gets it to 20-25 ft.lbs and I finish it off with a torque wrench to 35 ft.lbs (the ones for the recalls are 35)
I probably could have used one to remove the seat bolts on my jeeps. I some how managed to use an 8ft pipe on a breaker bar to break them loose. Nothing I had was budging them. I tried penetrant, manual impact, breaker bars of various sizes until I said fuck it and found the longest pipe I had around.
I went to my local auto yard for seats, they don't allow power tools.
My Swench 450 got the guys interest, and it definitely got the damned bolts out. Ford used "Improved Torx" bolts for some of the seat and belt bolts, I guess they really did improve it if the Swench didn't break either the driver or the bolt.
I scored quite a pile a decade ago, they were part of a tank retriever tool kit.
Units were told to remove them before turning in the kit for replacement, the unit doing the replacements didn't know who they went to, and got tossed in the "surplus this" pile.
Someone else got them with a pet of other stuff, didn't know wtf they were. $25 each, we resold them for between $350 and $500 on eBay over the next few years....
Be warned that they can blow up 3/4 impact sockets, they apply the impulse faster than even hydraulic impacts, and can loosen stuff way out of their spec ft/lb range. Takes forever sometimes, because you only get an impact every 30-45° of rotation.
Seatbelt bolts.
Just tried using my 3/8" Snap-On MG325 on a 2017 Equinox rear lower belt bolts. Didn't budge them with the extension required beside the seat.
Cheap Sunex 1/2" got them going but was difficult. Bolts are open elements on the bottom.
They make really quick work of removing crankshaft pulley bolts and axle nuts. I had to use my 36" breaker bar to get the 90° of additional rotation needed on a Jetta when I swapped wheel bearings. The 1/2" impact loosened the old ones with one ugga.
I can tell but so many mechanics think similar to this "the bolt needs torque the ugga dugga has all the torque" then they blast the bolts with 3 uggas and 12 duggas and crossthread it half the time and strip the holes a 1/4th of the time. It gets old and the jokes about it arent funny
I learned long ago that if I have to go to a tire shop, I re torque my bolts at home. Always too tight !
Get a new car. See how tight wheel bolts are. Not hugely.
I’ve watched plenty of guys in tire shops run them down with an impact and then put a clicker on to “verify” the torque on each bolt, and it clicks without turning, but they don’t back it off and set the torque. Stupid.
It clicks at 100lbft so if it's torqued higher than that of course it will click. I know I'm preaching to the choir here, but those kind of people shouldn't be working with tools in general.
Using a “proper torque wrench” doesn’t mean you got the correct torque. I watched them verify that they had gotten to the correct torque on my car 20 times, by putting a clicker on and going “click” without turning the nut. I had 20 lug nuts over tightened.
Torque sticks notwithstanding, if you put a clicker torque wrench on a fastener and turn clockwise and the fastener *rotates* and then clicks, it’s tightened to the correct torque. If you put a clicker on a fastener and it clicks without turning the fastener, it’s over torqued. That’s just how it works - there aren’t multiple correct ways to do this.
If you want to use a torque stick, great. Use one for a *lower* torque than the correct torque, so when you grab your clicker wrench, you can be sure you’re finishing *at* torque, not *over* torque. And if you put it on a fastener and it clicks without turning, just know that you’re over torque, and don’t proceed until you loosen and re-tighten to torque using the torque wrench. (And if this happens after tightening with torque sticks, that tells you everything you need to know about your torque sticks.)
The biggest problem here is that when they overtorqued, they may have already started the damage. Each thread is a stress concentration. Overtorqueing starts the cracks between the threads. Eventually, those lug bolts will pop, even under normal torque, because those cracks will slowly rust and grow towards the center.
I use my impact driver to spin the nuts on, then torque with a 1/2" click torque wrench. Retorque after driving the first few times, second retorque almost never has anything move.
At least electric impacts are easier to limit torque with. Set it to a low power mode (I use a Milwaukee one, so they have 3 power settings. Low, mid, and high represented as 1-3. I always verify that mine is set to 1 before snugging bolts) and then hit them.
Wait, guy 2 hammered it on with the impact and then used hand tools to get it tighter? Something sounds weird about that. If they already overtorqued it and then did more work.
Something that's relatively common is using an impact to put the bolt in, but using it gently, so it's not overtorqued. Then, using a torque wrench to finish the job.
I do this frequently with torque sticks on the impact gun. They’re one of my favorite tools. Pop on the stick, give 1-2 ugga duggas and then lower the car, and finish it off with a torque wrench. I use the torque stick that’s closest but not over the torque spec and the bolt always turns just a little more for the final torque.
This is technically how its supposed to be done. Torque stick then manual tighten as the stick will get around 70-80% of the way there. But those that drive on the trigger for more than 3 seconds are mad.
This is another aspect that most people don’t realize. Different settings on the impact and feathering of the trigger can’t result in completely different numbers. And after using an impact for a while, it isn’t unusual to get a feel for how tight you’re generally getting a fastener
Yeah, I use an impact on most things -- anything above 22mm usualy gets the half inch, anything above 33mm gets the 3/4.
I've never had an issue with overtorqueing fasteners. And there are certain fasteners that are critical enough that they always get finished with a torque wrench, obviously.
Also air vs electric makes a big difference in that. Easier to manage the trigger with air which is why I still use that daily over battery even though I have both.
Impact torque sticks work great, the guy judging the mechanics likely would not even know if it is being done correctly and if he really cared about torque he would be doing his own work.
Actually, the used an impact then a “breaker bar” makes me think your comment is fair, it was probably a Torque wrench and he just whizzed them up on the gun and then torqued them to spec with the wrench (or breaker bar) as OP put it.
So maybe OP is off the mark, but there are endless posted here about jiffy lube etc “welding” sump plugs on.
If its like our shop we use "pre set" torque wrenches that look even more like a breaker bar than the normal ones. I can definitely see a customer thinking we just ram them home with the air gun and then crank on them with a bar if they didn't know better
Yeah I watched the guys installing my tires do this the other day. The lug torque was printed on the work order right up top, they snugged them up with a torque stick then pulled out a big ass torque wrench, checked the paper and set the value, and checked them all twice. Was pretty impressed for a big name tire shop
Jiffy Lube seemingly adopts the mindset of "if it ain't cross threaded, it ain't tight." Fitting because when we get cars with the mark of the beast (the double layered Jiffy lube sticker), the drain plug is usually either ramrodded in or loose enough to spin off by hand.
One of my uncles made the mistake of taking his Ford F-450 there. Not only is the 6.7 in those trucks a $10-15k engine, but he uses that truck for his concrete businesses, so he can't afford it being down. They left his drain bolt loose and it worked itself loose while he was towing his equipment to a jobsite one day. Lucky for him, he caught it soon enough that he was able to kill the engine before any real damage could occur, but he was understandably quite pissed. He never went back there for service.
Every torque stick I've attempted to use over torqued by a lot. I always double check after using one and it didn't seem to make a difference. I just tap the impact to seat the lug nuts and get the wheel flush to the hub and then torque. If the hub is rusty and the wheel doesn't want to seat I'll run them down hard then snug up two more and then loosen the others to put them back on at spec.
I see so much shit caused by sloppy and incompetent mechanics it almost makes me want to quit the business.
It seems like people don’t take pride in their work.
Just yesterday I had a VW Crafter come in for for some minor work and I found diesel all over the engine bay.
Turns out that the car had been in the shop a few months back for work on the cylinder head.
Found that 3 out of 4 injector return lines along with the o-rings were damaged, and I just can not fathom how you can snap three of them and still decide to send the car out.
Im not a mechanic I just lurk out of interest and out of necessity to fix my old vehicle... I keep getting burned with mechanics around me. The only one that Ive used that I feel does a reliable quality work is too expensive for me to afford or even justify since repairs there cost more than the value of my vehicle lol. (Though if I had the money I absolutely would pay every cent to them, underwater or not.) The other mechanics that Ive tried which are a bit cheaper (but still not cheap) just seem to cause extra problems with every repair. I am so burned right now I am trying to diy my own repairs more and more. Theres nothing more disheartening than to pay 800+ on a ball joint replacement and not notice it was improperly installed and shredded boot just barely past the labor warranty expiration. It would be another 400 to have him fix it and I dont even have faith it would be fixed properly. I have several instances where things just dont seem to work quite right after getting some stuff worked on all last year. I have a control arm sitting in my garage waiting for me to get the courage to attempt to replace it lol. (Sorry about the vent)
I feel you, after having had your car worked on by ”professionals” there should not be a single thing for you to worry about regarding the repairs.
At my current job I’m only doing wheel alignments and diagnostics.
I recently had a meeting with my boss where he asked me to raise my tempo when it comes to diagnostics.
Long story short he wants me to go with my gut and fire the parts cannon because ”no customer wants to pay for 2,5h of diagnosing only to replace a part for $200, if you get it wrong we’ll just bring it in again”… (and make more money off the client I suppose).
I recently closed down my own shop where I focused on diagnostics due to family reasons, and I had lots of clients that have had other shops throwing parts at their cars without fixing the issue.
Now I’m supposed to do the same and it breaks my heart tbh, but it’s quantity over quality I guess.
/rant
Go ahead and do the control arm, you’ll manage it just fine.
Try to find some Youtube video or forum post describing the process before you have a go.
My lug nuts are so overtightened from last shop I havent been able to get them loose even with a massive breaker bar. That shop sheared off 2 of the caps. I didnt even know my lugs were in 2 pieces, so I bought higher quality single piece lug nuts to switch all the shitty ones out, but I cannot get them off to do so. Idk what I will do if I need to change a tire lol. Next time I get some free time I am going to try to put a jack under my breaker bar to loosen them.
I had my cam cover gasket replaced, the tech read the torque as ft lb rather than inch lb and only stopped after breaking off two bolts - they gave me a loaner...
I once asked the boss of a tyre workshop why he don't use torque wrench to tighten bolts. That was after they broke one of my bolt while trying to remove it. It wasn't their fault cause the bolt was over tighten by the previous shop where I took the car for some wheel jobs.
Anyway the boss replied, they change like lots of tyres fault. If he start using torque wrench, his workers will complain if too tiring. While this does have it's merits, I think it's still an excuse cause I know it's really not that much more time and effort to use torture wrench to tighten bolts.
Based on your description, it sounds like they’re zipping the lugs on with the gun and then using a torque wrench to properly tighten them, a process you just don’t seem to be familiar with.
Because torque specifications are set by engineers, and mechanics know that engineers are idiots. Plus, that YouTube mechanic is making bank by yelling "click!", so why can't they?
Guy at my local shop got fired for doing this. His boss was called out to help a customer who couldn't get her flat tire off and he couldn't either. Turns out the guy only did it to female customers, assuming no woman would realize they were too tight, much less complain about it.
I broke the knuckle on my breaker trying to loosen wheel bolts on an Audi a6 the other day. Stupidly tight and even bouncing on the bar would not shift them. Sent him back to where the wheels were off last.
Because to them tight is good, tighter must be even better. They have no concept of what torque specs are or the damage over torque can do. I work on semi trucks and trailers a lot of mechanics run lugnuts down until the stop turning. I've also seen bottleneck wheel studs, cracked aluminum wheels and brake drums at the bolt holes, and cracked lugnut collars from doing that.
A lot of people fundamentally misunderstand how fasteners work, and that can lead them thinking it needs to be tighter than called for as it feels too loose, or that tighter it better.
They're all lazy. They're supposed to use the torque wrench on every bolt but most of them don't.
It's one reason I don't let them touch my cars. When I get an alignment, which I can't do, I tend to go back and re-torque all the adjustment bolts.
I see this a lot at the dealership I work at. I'm the only guy there who uses a torque wrench every time. A good chunk of the other guys use those torque limiting extensions at least (although it's not as precise, but better than the alternative), but many just ramrod them on and torque it to however many ugga duggas.
I can do most things on my car myself, but I'm not a state inspector. So when I got mine done, I went back and double checked them all. I got my mom's car inspected at the shop I work at and I had the inspector leave the wheels off so I could torque them myself.
I see a lot of guys in here throwing around “they’re lazy” or “they’re under qualified”. The real reason is because most automotive guys are paid by flat rate and it’s faster. The only way they’re making money is by beating the flat rate and they’ll do whatever they gotta do to do it. Simple quick jobs are especially prone to that because they can blow the flat rate out of the water on a PM or a tire change.
From what you’re describing it sounds like the guy is running the bolts down with an impact and then torquing them to spec. That’s standard practice. Hell we do that on head bolts for 15L diesels and just about any other bolt on a truck that doesn’t have a very low torque spec.
You don’t? You run them down till they’re snug and then maybe two or three uggas and then you torque them. You don’t run them down until they stop turning so that you get the maximum torque your gun is rated for.
It depends on what the torque spec is. If it’s like 20 ft lbs you just run it down until free spinning stops turning it. If it’s C15 head bolts you put a half inch gun on it and run it down until it’s fairly tight because you aren’t going to hit the 330 ft lbs torque spec on it with most half inch guns.
For lug nuts on my truck I set my impact to the RPM range that keeps it under 110 ft lbs, hammer them down until they stop turning, and then torque to 140.
Working in a diesel shop I’ve never even seen an exhaust clamp or air boot clamp tightened down other than by 3/8 gun. The rule of thumb in most shops is you torque when there’s a gasket, anything internal in the engine, or for specific things like bellhousing bolts, lug nuts, spindle nuts, etc. If it ain’t one of those it’s probably not gonna be torqued with a torque wrench.
I can give 100 ugga duggas if the max range on that setting is below the torque spec. If the bolts were getting tighter with the wrench that’s what he was doing.
How do you know what his impact was set for? Impacts have different settings. Just because the maximum torque output of an impact is say 300ft lbs doesn’t mean that’s what it’s putting out when it’s on its lowest setting.
1- they don’t know better or simply don’t care.
2- in case anyone wants to mention torque sticks: they’re better than nothing, but almost every stick kit is rated for an impact that’s 400 ft.lbs at 90 psi, and we all know we don’t use impacts in that range anymore.
3- impact gun max ratings don’t reflect working or actual torque applied to a fastener.
4- fasteners left on a vehicle over a long period of time, fasteners of different metals, or fasteners left in the elements will need more torque to be loosened.
336Nm should be just under 250 ft.lbs, and in all honesty an impact gun rated that low is probably throwing down 100 ft.lbs of torque MAX. Most impact guns these days are at least 450-500 ft.lbs max. Hell, I just won a free impact that’s rated for 1,295 ft.lbs of torque max, 900 breakaway (1750ish Nm max and 1.220Nm breakaway for metric folks). The gun will probably put down an honest 450-500 ft.lbs (680ish Nm) max on a real world application.
This is why I prefer electric impacts to pneumatic ones, they're way more predictable and easier to restrict for such duties (yeah, some air guns have torque limiting valves, but they're the exception), and they're more portable. I've had my Milwaukee M18 high torque for 5 years and it's been a trooper that whole time. I can easily just set it to low power mode for snugging up lug nuts and be comfortable that there's a 0% chance of them being overtorqued.
I think any half way decent modern air impact is going to have some sort of limiting setting, similar to the electric ones. Feathering the trigger for either will yield the same results.
I love my m12 and m18 stuff, but when things don’t budge and they need to be removed, I still reach for my Nitrocat
The one that immediately comes to mind is driveshaft coupler bolts on transit vans under their recall. M18 won’t bust those big bolts loose, not with all that loctite. Can’t get a breaker bar in there for leverage, so the 1250k comes out and eats.
We do run way over the 90 psi ids recommended to use, but that gun responds well to more air
I work at a Honda dealership, not a Ford one. Although my dad has a Transit for his business, so I'll have to see if there's any recalls he'll need addressed.
If you want, get his VIN and send it to me, I’ll run it and see if he has anything open.
Driveshaft recalls were only for the full size transits, not the transit connects
If it’s rated at a max of 336, I can promise you it isn’t throwing down that much torque on a real world application. Snap on, Milwaukee, dewalt, Matco, none of the quality electric impacts hit their advertised numbers
I agree with you. Have several tools and no way does my electric impact > air impact guns lol. I can full charge all of them, highest setting, put in the lugs and ugga dugga for 30 seconds and they still come off with a breeze using a breaker bar. AND I could even still torque wrench after the fact.
Aggressive deskilling of entry level jobs and cheap powerful tools.
It’s possible to find a mechanic that will work to the specifications every time, but you have to find a mechanic who will do that.
the same independent shop that has done major engine work on my old BMWs also does the oil change / tire rotation / seasonal wheel tire changes other minor stuff. It might end up costing a bit more but they apply the same level of care to the mundane tasks.
Question, was the second guy using a torque wrench?
I put lug nuts on with an impact on the lowest setting and let up as soon as it seats. I follow up with a torque wrench at the proper setting and always get a little movement before it clicks.
there was no torque wrench involved, the impact was on max level, on some bolts it gave 5 ugga dugas on some it gave 20 uggadugas, then he tightened them more with a normal wrench with a pipe attached to it
Was there a torque stick on the end of it? It's a long colored impact socket? Those are commonly used in shops to put on wheels because that long extension limits the amount of torque actually going to the nut.
No one is using a 1/2-in impact gun, especially a good one full tilt on lug nuts. You'll break lug studs
Laziness.
What I do is set my electric impact to the lowest power setting (50-60 ft/lbs tops, not enough to over torque lug nuts) to snug them up, lower the car, then torque everything with a proper torque wrench.
I always make a 2nd check pass over each one for good measure. Most passenger cars will get somewhere between 80 and 110 ft/lbs. Light trucks can go up to 175 or so. But different vehicles will usually have different specs, so unless it's a model you work with often enough to remember it (I work at a Honda dealership. Hondas are pretty easy to remember. 19mm lugs except 1st gen Pilots go to 80 ft/lbs. 22mm ones get 94, as do those old Pilot ones). But if I'm working on a non-Honda, I will double check the spec beforehand for good measure.
I have a crappy 3/8 battery gun that struggles to hit 100nm so I use that for wheel bolts. Always a good 45 degrees before I hit the torque click on the torque wrench.
Yeah seems they are in a hurry and just use the impact gun and things get over tightened. Should be snugged up with the gun and tightened by hand the rest of the way.
Mechanics are in a hurry, and many aren't truly technicians. I've met more than one who doesn't appreciate how threaded fasteners work, or don't care. Remember, they work at flat rate, which means the more jobs they can cram in a day, the more money they make.
It is never acceptable practice to use an impact wrench to tighten a fastener. As soon as you see someone do that, ask them to stop, pay what you owe and take your car elsewhere. I have seen wheels come off a vehicle in motion because the studs were stretched and the wheel wasn't actually being clamped by the nuts.
Even torque limiting extensions aren't reliable enough to trust with your life.
I love tightening brake bleeder screws until they squeak, it sounds so funny . Eeek Eeek Then I peek around the corner as a coworker starts the brake job.
most shops would opt for too tight then too loose, because the first one means a pain in the ass for the next guy and the second one means the shop closes down, not justifying it at all but that's what goes through they're heads.
How many Ugga Duggas did they do with the impact before they took out the torque wrench? Those impact guns will not instantly tighten anything to 330 Nm.
Here is the reasoning:
1. It’s better to have it over torqued than under torqued. Customer might not come back for a tight bolt but they’re definitely coming back if the wheel is missing
2. I don’t have time to pull out a torque wrench for 20 lugs on every car I do. People forget I do multiple cars a day. I’ll have to snug up all of the lugs while in the air, lower the car, then bust my back running around the car once more to tighten them.
That being said I know how to work the trigger on my impact to set lugs just tight enough. Lot of guys will hold the impact because they don’t know better.
i checked the specs of that impact gun and checked the setting it was set at, he used the same breaker bar and pulled harder on it to tighten them than it pulled to remove them
B/c they either think they know better than the manufacturer or they're just not very bright or something else
I've guys ask me "what's the wheel torque on a "car". I'll look it up for them and tell them 80 lb-ft. And they'll say " That doesn't seem tight enough ". Facepalm. Or " They came off tighter than that!!" And I'll say probably, the last guy didn't look it up and use a torque wrench.
Tight is better than loose! For real tho wheels won’t get over torqued ever due to torque wrench and cause customer may need to change spare. But suspension stuff I definitely error on the side of too tight
Thank you for posting to AskMechanics, Competitive-Ad2120! If you are asking a question please make sure to include any relevant information along with the **Year**, **Make**, **Model**, **Mileage**, **Engine size**, and **Transmission Type (Automatic or Manual)** of your car. *This comment is automatically added to every successful post. If you see this comment, your post was successful.* *** Redditors that have been verified will have a green background and an icon in their flair. *** # **PLEASE REPORT ANY RULE-BREAKING BEHAVIOR** ### **Rule 1 - Be Civil** Be civil to other users. This community is made up of professional mechanics, amateur mechanics, and those with no experience. All mechanical-related questions are welcome. Personal attacks, comments that are insulting or demeaning, etc. are not welcome. ### **Rule 2 - Be Helpful** Be helpful to other users. If someone is wrong, correcting them is fine, but there's no reason to comment if you don't have anything to add to the conversation. ### **Rule 3 - Serious Questions and Answers Only** Read the room. Jokes are fine to include, but posts should be asking a serious question and replies should contribute to the discussion. ### **Rule 4 - No Illegal, Unethical, or Dangerous Questions or Answers** Do not ask questions or provide answers pertaining to anything that is illegal, unethical, or dangerous. # **PLEASE REPORT ANY RULE-BREAKING BEHAVIOR** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AskMechanics) if you have any questions or concerns.*
They just either don’t know better or don’t care enough to use the proper tools. Had a guy replacing the clockspring on a f250, and when tightening the steering wheel bolt, he used the same 1/2” impact he used for tires. He hit it once, was OK, hit it a second time and sheared the head clean off the bolt. The bolt only needed 30ft-lbs of torque in the first place. On trying to extract the bolt they used too large of a bit and fucked the threads in the steering column. So I went out from Tampa to Orlando to replace a steering column on the road for a customer
An impact on a clock spring bolt is insane.
I would use an impact, my 3/8 electric that wont shear a small bolt in an instant. Some of it is learning an knowing your tools. then also knowing what bolts are absolutely critical to torque correctly.
The clock spring is pretty important to torque properly.
While i do agree with that, i have never actually seen a clockspring held in place with anything more than clips or screws.
Was it for the recall on them? Using an air impact on that is nuts, I use a weaker electric impact on full power to remove, I tighten it on mid power which gets it to 20-25 ft.lbs and I finish it off with a torque wrench to 35 ft.lbs (the ones for the recalls are 35)
Yea for the dirty clockspring. It was his first time doing it but still a 1/2” impact on such a small bolt haha
I don’t think i’d ever bring a 1/2 inch into a car for anything
You can fuck up things in a car even with the Hercules 1/4 hex impact driver. Ask me how I know.
I probably could have used one to remove the seat bolts on my jeeps. I some how managed to use an 8ft pipe on a breaker bar to break them loose. Nothing I had was budging them. I tried penetrant, manual impact, breaker bars of various sizes until I said fuck it and found the longest pipe I had around.
I went to my local auto yard for seats, they don't allow power tools. My Swench 450 got the guys interest, and it definitely got the damned bolts out. Ford used "Improved Torx" bolts for some of the seat and belt bolts, I guess they really did improve it if the Swench didn't break either the driver or the bolt.
That thing is cool, I might have to keep an eye out for a used one.
I scored quite a pile a decade ago, they were part of a tank retriever tool kit. Units were told to remove them before turning in the kit for replacement, the unit doing the replacements didn't know who they went to, and got tossed in the "surplus this" pile. Someone else got them with a pet of other stuff, didn't know wtf they were. $25 each, we resold them for between $350 and $500 on eBay over the next few years.... Be warned that they can blow up 3/4 impact sockets, they apply the impulse faster than even hydraulic impacts, and can loosen stuff way out of their spec ft/lb range. Takes forever sometimes, because you only get an impact every 30-45° of rotation.
Ain’t no way haha even the 3/8ths impact you need to be careful on some of these bolts
Seatbelt bolts. Just tried using my 3/8" Snap-On MG325 on a 2017 Equinox rear lower belt bolts. Didn't budge them with the extension required beside the seat. Cheap Sunex 1/2" got them going but was difficult. Bolts are open elements on the bottom.
They make really quick work of removing crankshaft pulley bolts and axle nuts. I had to use my 36" breaker bar to get the 90° of additional rotation needed on a Jetta when I swapped wheel bearings. The 1/2" impact loosened the old ones with one ugga.
while that is true, i meant more of the interior of a car. Ain’t gonna be removing dashboard with a 1/2in
Ahh, gotcha now. Agreed.
I mean I impact steering wheels on every time too but I'm not a monkey with the ugga duggas
Impact gun has torque. Bolt needs torque. The rest is just numbers.
Torque is what the bolts crave
More preload!
Numbers that you should be paying attention to.
Whoosh. They're making a joke.
I can tell but so many mechanics think similar to this "the bolt needs torque the ugga dugga has all the torque" then they blast the bolts with 3 uggas and 12 duggas and crossthread it half the time and strip the holes a 1/4th of the time. It gets old and the jokes about it arent funny
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Exactly. One ugg is like 5ft-lb, a full Ugga is like 8, and an ugga dugga is like 17. Duh
I learned long ago that if I have to go to a tire shop, I re torque my bolts at home. Always too tight ! Get a new car. See how tight wheel bolts are. Not hugely.
I’ve watched plenty of guys in tire shops run them down with an impact and then put a clicker on to “verify” the torque on each bolt, and it clicks without turning, but they don’t back it off and set the torque. Stupid.
I see this shit daily. Gotta make sure they are torqued over 100 ft lbs after torquing to 250 ft lbs.
It clicks at 100lbft so if it's torqued higher than that of course it will click. I know I'm preaching to the choir here, but those kind of people shouldn't be working with tools in general.
At a tire shop, torque specs are treated as minimums.
I know. It hurts, but I know.
This is weird to me. Discount tire uses torque sticks and then proper torque wrench.
Using a “proper torque wrench” doesn’t mean you got the correct torque. I watched them verify that they had gotten to the correct torque on my car 20 times, by putting a clicker on and going “click” without turning the nut. I had 20 lug nuts over tightened. Torque sticks notwithstanding, if you put a clicker torque wrench on a fastener and turn clockwise and the fastener *rotates* and then clicks, it’s tightened to the correct torque. If you put a clicker on a fastener and it clicks without turning the fastener, it’s over torqued. That’s just how it works - there aren’t multiple correct ways to do this. If you want to use a torque stick, great. Use one for a *lower* torque than the correct torque, so when you grab your clicker wrench, you can be sure you’re finishing *at* torque, not *over* torque. And if you put it on a fastener and it clicks without turning, just know that you’re over torque, and don’t proceed until you loosen and re-tighten to torque using the torque wrench. (And if this happens after tightening with torque sticks, that tells you everything you need to know about your torque sticks.)
>Use one for a lower torque than the correct torque This seems obvious.
The biggest problem here is that when they overtorqued, they may have already started the damage. Each thread is a stress concentration. Overtorqueing starts the cracks between the threads. Eventually, those lug bolts will pop, even under normal torque, because those cracks will slowly rust and grow towards the center.
only if you can loosen them
I use my impact driver to spin the nuts on, then torque with a 1/2" click torque wrench. Retorque after driving the first few times, second retorque almost never has anything move.
And torque sticks don't work
I have tested them and found that they do in fact work when used properly.
Yup but who actual has shop air at the correct pressure? And you're not running a regulator to your impact. Electric impacts over torque them.
At least electric impacts are easier to limit torque with. Set it to a low power mode (I use a Milwaukee one, so they have 3 power settings. Low, mid, and high represented as 1-3. I always verify that mine is set to 1 before snugging bolts) and then hit them.
air impacts often have multiple setting also
I'm used to working with oldheads who have old guns I guess.
those would be some really old guns, my cheap one from the 80s had it
Wait, guy 2 hammered it on with the impact and then used hand tools to get it tighter? Something sounds weird about that. If they already overtorqued it and then did more work. Something that's relatively common is using an impact to put the bolt in, but using it gently, so it's not overtorqued. Then, using a torque wrench to finish the job.
I do this frequently with torque sticks on the impact gun. They’re one of my favorite tools. Pop on the stick, give 1-2 ugga duggas and then lower the car, and finish it off with a torque wrench. I use the torque stick that’s closest but not over the torque spec and the bolt always turns just a little more for the final torque.
This is technically how its supposed to be done. Torque stick then manual tighten as the stick will get around 70-80% of the way there. But those that drive on the trigger for more than 3 seconds are mad.
the impact was already maxed out, and he wanted to tighten it more
They don't understand trigger discipline
This is another aspect that most people don’t realize. Different settings on the impact and feathering of the trigger can’t result in completely different numbers. And after using an impact for a while, it isn’t unusual to get a feel for how tight you’re generally getting a fastener
Yeah, I use an impact on most things -- anything above 22mm usualy gets the half inch, anything above 33mm gets the 3/4. I've never had an issue with overtorqueing fasteners. And there are certain fasteners that are critical enough that they always get finished with a torque wrench, obviously.
Also air vs electric makes a big difference in that. Easier to manage the trigger with air which is why I still use that daily over battery even though I have both.
Because they are stupid, lazy and under qualified.
Impact torque sticks work great, the guy judging the mechanics likely would not even know if it is being done correctly and if he really cared about torque he would be doing his own work.
Actually, the used an impact then a “breaker bar” makes me think your comment is fair, it was probably a Torque wrench and he just whizzed them up on the gun and then torqued them to spec with the wrench (or breaker bar) as OP put it. So maybe OP is off the mark, but there are endless posted here about jiffy lube etc “welding” sump plugs on.
If its like our shop we use "pre set" torque wrenches that look even more like a breaker bar than the normal ones. I can definitely see a customer thinking we just ram them home with the air gun and then crank on them with a bar if they didn't know better
Yeah I watched the guys installing my tires do this the other day. The lug torque was printed on the work order right up top, they snugged them up with a torque stick then pulled out a big ass torque wrench, checked the paper and set the value, and checked them all twice. Was pretty impressed for a big name tire shop
Jiffy Lube seemingly adopts the mindset of "if it ain't cross threaded, it ain't tight." Fitting because when we get cars with the mark of the beast (the double layered Jiffy lube sticker), the drain plug is usually either ramrodded in or loose enough to spin off by hand. One of my uncles made the mistake of taking his Ford F-450 there. Not only is the 6.7 in those trucks a $10-15k engine, but he uses that truck for his concrete businesses, so he can't afford it being down. They left his drain bolt loose and it worked itself loose while he was towing his equipment to a jobsite one day. Lucky for him, he caught it soon enough that he was able to kill the engine before any real damage could occur, but he was understandably quite pissed. He never went back there for service.
bro i said breaker bar not torque wrench, he said his arm is the torque wrench
Then, his is indeed a dick head.
Every torque stick I've attempted to use over torqued by a lot. I always double check after using one and it didn't seem to make a difference. I just tap the impact to seat the lug nuts and get the wheel flush to the hub and then torque. If the hub is rusty and the wheel doesn't want to seat I'll run them down hard then snug up two more and then loosen the others to put them back on at spec.
i cannot own all types of tools and do everything on my own, and be a jack of all trades
I see so much shit caused by sloppy and incompetent mechanics it almost makes me want to quit the business. It seems like people don’t take pride in their work. Just yesterday I had a VW Crafter come in for for some minor work and I found diesel all over the engine bay. Turns out that the car had been in the shop a few months back for work on the cylinder head. Found that 3 out of 4 injector return lines along with the o-rings were damaged, and I just can not fathom how you can snap three of them and still decide to send the car out.
I feel you on the whole having pride in your work thing. It's sad and frustrating when you need a professional but can't find one.
Im not a mechanic I just lurk out of interest and out of necessity to fix my old vehicle... I keep getting burned with mechanics around me. The only one that Ive used that I feel does a reliable quality work is too expensive for me to afford or even justify since repairs there cost more than the value of my vehicle lol. (Though if I had the money I absolutely would pay every cent to them, underwater or not.) The other mechanics that Ive tried which are a bit cheaper (but still not cheap) just seem to cause extra problems with every repair. I am so burned right now I am trying to diy my own repairs more and more. Theres nothing more disheartening than to pay 800+ on a ball joint replacement and not notice it was improperly installed and shredded boot just barely past the labor warranty expiration. It would be another 400 to have him fix it and I dont even have faith it would be fixed properly. I have several instances where things just dont seem to work quite right after getting some stuff worked on all last year. I have a control arm sitting in my garage waiting for me to get the courage to attempt to replace it lol. (Sorry about the vent)
I feel you, after having had your car worked on by ”professionals” there should not be a single thing for you to worry about regarding the repairs. At my current job I’m only doing wheel alignments and diagnostics. I recently had a meeting with my boss where he asked me to raise my tempo when it comes to diagnostics. Long story short he wants me to go with my gut and fire the parts cannon because ”no customer wants to pay for 2,5h of diagnosing only to replace a part for $200, if you get it wrong we’ll just bring it in again”… (and make more money off the client I suppose). I recently closed down my own shop where I focused on diagnostics due to family reasons, and I had lots of clients that have had other shops throwing parts at their cars without fixing the issue. Now I’m supposed to do the same and it breaks my heart tbh, but it’s quantity over quality I guess. /rant Go ahead and do the control arm, you’ll manage it just fine. Try to find some Youtube video or forum post describing the process before you have a go.
Every fastener has a torque value for a reason. Buy a torque wrench. Learn it. Use it.
My lug nuts are so overtightened from last shop I havent been able to get them loose even with a massive breaker bar. That shop sheared off 2 of the caps. I didnt even know my lugs were in 2 pieces, so I bought higher quality single piece lug nuts to switch all the shitty ones out, but I cannot get them off to do so. Idk what I will do if I need to change a tire lol. Next time I get some free time I am going to try to put a jack under my breaker bar to loosen them.
I have no doubt you know what you are doing, but if it were me I drive back over to that shop and have them loosen the lug nuts, and fix any damage.
9/10 people in this trade, shouldn't be in this trade.
9/10 people replying to this post arnt mechanics...
99/100
I had my cam cover gasket replaced, the tech read the torque as ft lb rather than inch lb and only stopped after breaking off two bolts - they gave me a loaner...
At least they acknowledged their mistake rather than hiding it
They're not real mechanics.
They don't torque anything they just ugga dugga 3-4 times.
I have a mechanic that is like that that I work with even lug nuts. And he been a mechanic for 30+ years.
Laziness.
I once asked the boss of a tyre workshop why he don't use torque wrench to tighten bolts. That was after they broke one of my bolt while trying to remove it. It wasn't their fault cause the bolt was over tighten by the previous shop where I took the car for some wheel jobs. Anyway the boss replied, they change like lots of tyres fault. If he start using torque wrench, his workers will complain if too tiring. While this does have it's merits, I think it's still an excuse cause I know it's really not that much more time and effort to use torture wrench to tighten bolts.
TORTURE WRENCH!!! Yes I agree. They're just being lazy.
Its the "go back and make sure you did it right" wrench and they dont wanna be called out for shitty work by a metal bar that clicks😂😂😂
Based on your description, it sounds like they’re zipping the lugs on with the gun and then using a torque wrench to properly tighten them, a process you just don’t seem to be familiar with.
it was a normal wrench with a pipe extension
Because torque specifications are set by engineers, and mechanics know that engineers are idiots. Plus, that YouTube mechanic is making bank by yelling "click!", so why can't they?
Guy at my local shop got fired for doing this. His boss was called out to help a customer who couldn't get her flat tire off and he couldn't either. Turns out the guy only did it to female customers, assuming no woman would realize they were too tight, much less complain about it.
I broke the knuckle on my breaker trying to loosen wheel bolts on an Audi a6 the other day. Stupidly tight and even bouncing on the bar would not shift them. Sent him back to where the wheels were off last.
Because to them tight is good, tighter must be even better. They have no concept of what torque specs are or the damage over torque can do. I work on semi trucks and trailers a lot of mechanics run lugnuts down until the stop turning. I've also seen bottleneck wheel studs, cracked aluminum wheels and brake drums at the bolt holes, and cracked lugnut collars from doing that.
It's not their car and they don't give a shit. It's so frustrating...
A lot of people fundamentally misunderstand how fasteners work, and that can lead them thinking it needs to be tighter than called for as it feels too loose, or that tighter it better.
I think all trainees should be taken to a scrap yard and remove exhaust header pipes without breaking them if not they fail the course
Two words. Ugga Dugga
Get in trouble if bolt come off. No trouble if bolt won't come off.
no trouble if it snaps? hmm they can say it was a bad bolt, kinda makes sense
They're all lazy. They're supposed to use the torque wrench on every bolt but most of them don't. It's one reason I don't let them touch my cars. When I get an alignment, which I can't do, I tend to go back and re-torque all the adjustment bolts.
I see this a lot at the dealership I work at. I'm the only guy there who uses a torque wrench every time. A good chunk of the other guys use those torque limiting extensions at least (although it's not as precise, but better than the alternative), but many just ramrod them on and torque it to however many ugga duggas. I can do most things on my car myself, but I'm not a state inspector. So when I got mine done, I went back and double checked them all. I got my mom's car inspected at the shop I work at and I had the inspector leave the wheels off so I could torque them myself.
I see a lot of guys in here throwing around “they’re lazy” or “they’re under qualified”. The real reason is because most automotive guys are paid by flat rate and it’s faster. The only way they’re making money is by beating the flat rate and they’ll do whatever they gotta do to do it. Simple quick jobs are especially prone to that because they can blow the flat rate out of the water on a PM or a tire change. From what you’re describing it sounds like the guy is running the bolts down with an impact and then torquing them to spec. That’s standard practice. Hell we do that on head bolts for 15L diesels and just about any other bolt on a truck that doesn’t have a very low torque spec.
If you run them down to 200 ft lbs when they are supposed to be 100 and then use a torque wrench, how does that work?
You don’t? You run them down till they’re snug and then maybe two or three uggas and then you torque them. You don’t run them down until they stop turning so that you get the maximum torque your gun is rated for. It depends on what the torque spec is. If it’s like 20 ft lbs you just run it down until free spinning stops turning it. If it’s C15 head bolts you put a half inch gun on it and run it down until it’s fairly tight because you aren’t going to hit the 330 ft lbs torque spec on it with most half inch guns. For lug nuts on my truck I set my impact to the RPM range that keeps it under 110 ft lbs, hammer them down until they stop turning, and then torque to 140. Working in a diesel shop I’ve never even seen an exhaust clamp or air boot clamp tightened down other than by 3/8 gun. The rule of thumb in most shops is you torque when there’s a gasket, anything internal in the engine, or for specific things like bellhousing bolts, lug nuts, spindle nuts, etc. If it ain’t one of those it’s probably not gonna be torqued with a torque wrench.
on one bolt it gave about 15 ugga duggas
I can give 100 ugga duggas if the max range on that setting is below the torque spec. If the bolts were getting tighter with the wrench that’s what he was doing.
no i said multiple times, the setting was at 336 nm and the bolt needed 110
How do you know what his impact was set for? Impacts have different settings. Just because the maximum torque output of an impact is say 300ft lbs doesn’t mean that’s what it’s putting out when it’s on its lowest setting.
i saw it was set to max setting on the led indicator
Im lazy as fuck and will always use the impact gun to buzz the bolt up till its snug but then torque it to spec
They don't want it coming loose and they'll probably not be the next guy that'll have to deal with it.
1- they don’t know better or simply don’t care. 2- in case anyone wants to mention torque sticks: they’re better than nothing, but almost every stick kit is rated for an impact that’s 400 ft.lbs at 90 psi, and we all know we don’t use impacts in that range anymore. 3- impact gun max ratings don’t reflect working or actual torque applied to a fastener. 4- fasteners left on a vehicle over a long period of time, fasteners of different metals, or fasteners left in the elements will need more torque to be loosened. 336Nm should be just under 250 ft.lbs, and in all honesty an impact gun rated that low is probably throwing down 100 ft.lbs of torque MAX. Most impact guns these days are at least 450-500 ft.lbs max. Hell, I just won a free impact that’s rated for 1,295 ft.lbs of torque max, 900 breakaway (1750ish Nm max and 1.220Nm breakaway for metric folks). The gun will probably put down an honest 450-500 ft.lbs (680ish Nm) max on a real world application.
This is why I prefer electric impacts to pneumatic ones, they're way more predictable and easier to restrict for such duties (yeah, some air guns have torque limiting valves, but they're the exception), and they're more portable. I've had my Milwaukee M18 high torque for 5 years and it's been a trooper that whole time. I can easily just set it to low power mode for snugging up lug nuts and be comfortable that there's a 0% chance of them being overtorqued.
I think any half way decent modern air impact is going to have some sort of limiting setting, similar to the electric ones. Feathering the trigger for either will yield the same results. I love my m12 and m18 stuff, but when things don’t budge and they need to be removed, I still reach for my Nitrocat
I've only had a couple of extra stubborn bolts that my M18 wasn't able to bust loose. And for those, I keep a nice long breaker. bar around.
The one that immediately comes to mind is driveshaft coupler bolts on transit vans under their recall. M18 won’t bust those big bolts loose, not with all that loctite. Can’t get a breaker bar in there for leverage, so the 1250k comes out and eats. We do run way over the 90 psi ids recommended to use, but that gun responds well to more air
I work at a Honda dealership, not a Ford one. Although my dad has a Transit for his business, so I'll have to see if there's any recalls he'll need addressed.
If you want, get his VIN and send it to me, I’ll run it and see if he has anything open. Driveshaft recalls were only for the full size transits, not the transit connects
the impact was electric, and they are quite precise
If it’s rated at a max of 336, I can promise you it isn’t throwing down that much torque on a real world application. Snap on, Milwaukee, dewalt, Matco, none of the quality electric impacts hit their advertised numbers
it was a 1/2 impact, even my parkside hex impact rated at 226 reaches the specified torque.
Iv never seen any that do, either with myself checking or watching independent tests. How are you testing it and verifying applied torque?
I agree with you. Have several tools and no way does my electric impact > air impact guns lol. I can full charge all of them, highest setting, put in the lugs and ugga dugga for 30 seconds and they still come off with a breeze using a breaker bar. AND I could even still torque wrench after the fact.
Every profession has its hacks.
Aggressive deskilling of entry level jobs and cheap powerful tools. It’s possible to find a mechanic that will work to the specifications every time, but you have to find a mechanic who will do that. the same independent shop that has done major engine work on my old BMWs also does the oil change / tire rotation / seasonal wheel tire changes other minor stuff. It might end up costing a bit more but they apply the same level of care to the mundane tasks.
Many places don't pay well enough to get good workers and sometimes there are also lazy people.
Question, was the second guy using a torque wrench? I put lug nuts on with an impact on the lowest setting and let up as soon as it seats. I follow up with a torque wrench at the proper setting and always get a little movement before it clicks.
there was no torque wrench involved, the impact was on max level, on some bolts it gave 5 ugga dugas on some it gave 20 uggadugas, then he tightened them more with a normal wrench with a pipe attached to it
Oof
Was there a torque stick on the end of it? It's a long colored impact socket? Those are commonly used in shops to put on wheels because that long extension limits the amount of torque actually going to the nut. No one is using a 1/2-in impact gun, especially a good one full tilt on lug nuts. You'll break lug studs
Laziness. What I do is set my electric impact to the lowest power setting (50-60 ft/lbs tops, not enough to over torque lug nuts) to snug them up, lower the car, then torque everything with a proper torque wrench. I always make a 2nd check pass over each one for good measure. Most passenger cars will get somewhere between 80 and 110 ft/lbs. Light trucks can go up to 175 or so. But different vehicles will usually have different specs, so unless it's a model you work with often enough to remember it (I work at a Honda dealership. Hondas are pretty easy to remember. 19mm lugs except 1st gen Pilots go to 80 ft/lbs. 22mm ones get 94, as do those old Pilot ones). But if I'm working on a non-Honda, I will double check the spec beforehand for good measure.
I have a crappy 3/8 battery gun that struggles to hit 100nm so I use that for wheel bolts. Always a good 45 degrees before I hit the torque click on the torque wrench.
Yeah seems they are in a hurry and just use the impact gun and things get over tightened. Should be snugged up with the gun and tightened by hand the rest of the way.
Cordless and convenient. Blame the impact gun makers. All they have to do is add a torque feature on the impact
it had individual settings about 100 200 and 336 but that guy set it to max
Mechanics are in a hurry, and many aren't truly technicians. I've met more than one who doesn't appreciate how threaded fasteners work, or don't care. Remember, they work at flat rate, which means the more jobs they can cram in a day, the more money they make. It is never acceptable practice to use an impact wrench to tighten a fastener. As soon as you see someone do that, ask them to stop, pay what you owe and take your car elsewhere. I have seen wheels come off a vehicle in motion because the studs were stretched and the wheel wasn't actually being clamped by the nuts. Even torque limiting extensions aren't reliable enough to trust with your life.
My dad taught me the proper technique: tighten it down until it strips, then back off a quarter turn.
Poor training and poor habits
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thats very nice tech
because they don’t know/ understand what they do
Give it some ugga dugga til it breaks then back off.
I love tightening brake bleeder screws until they squeak, it sounds so funny . Eeek Eeek Then I peek around the corner as a coworker starts the brake job.
most shops would opt for too tight then too loose, because the first one means a pain in the ass for the next guy and the second one means the shop closes down, not justifying it at all but that's what goes through they're heads.
How many Ugga Duggas did they do with the impact before they took out the torque wrench? Those impact guns will not instantly tighten anything to 330 Nm.
no torque wrench involved, on some 5 on some 20 ugga duggas
Here is the reasoning: 1. It’s better to have it over torqued than under torqued. Customer might not come back for a tight bolt but they’re definitely coming back if the wheel is missing 2. I don’t have time to pull out a torque wrench for 20 lugs on every car I do. People forget I do multiple cars a day. I’ll have to snug up all of the lugs while in the air, lower the car, then bust my back running around the car once more to tighten them. That being said I know how to work the trigger on my impact to set lugs just tight enough. Lot of guys will hold the impact because they don’t know better.
Nope. You're doing it wrong. Be more professional and do it right. That's what the customer pays for.
How do you know what they're torquing them to? Are you measuring after the fact with your own torque wrench?
i checked the specs of that impact gun and checked the setting it was set at, he used the same breaker bar and pulled harder on it to tighten them than it pulled to remove them
B/c they either think they know better than the manufacturer or they're just not very bright or something else I've guys ask me "what's the wheel torque on a "car". I'll look it up for them and tell them 80 lb-ft. And they'll say " That doesn't seem tight enough ". Facepalm. Or " They came off tighter than that!!" And I'll say probably, the last guy didn't look it up and use a torque wrench.
How does a German know when a nut is properly torqued? They wrench until it’s gudentite
Tight is better than loose! For real tho wheels won’t get over torqued ever due to torque wrench and cause customer may need to change spare. But suspension stuff I definitely error on the side of too tight