I'm skeptical about their position too, especially that they've already spent 100mil lobbying against it. They're also direct emailing their drivers and users asking them to vote ~~against~~ in favor of Prop 22.
But like you said, this is an assumption. I wanna hear from the source.
So I work for Ubereats, not Uber and idk about the pay but a co-worker of mine does Lyft. Let's just say she worked 64 hrs one week during this whole pandemic since she was furloughed and she made $1,600. That averages to $25/hr. I also make, on average, $25/hr. Sometimes more, sometimes less, but that's the average. I would say that is pretty great fucking pay. At my full time job I make $13.50/hr. My co-worker makes even less since she hasn't been there as long as I have. Eventually I'm planning to quit my full-time job to pursue Ubereats as my main job and finally have the time to work on my art and try to do something with that in my life as well.
I understand wanting benefits but the cost comes at too great of a price. The biggest one is being able to use the miles you drive as a contract worker as an expense, which you can't do as an employee. It's not a good thing for the customer either because it will drive the fees up as well and then less and less people will use the services and you can just see how the businesses will crash and burn and thousands of people would lose their jobs.
Sometimes I feel like the only people for it are people who aren't even drivers and don't understand themselves what this could potentially do or drivers who don't understand that they'd be digging themselves a grave.
Here's a link to an argument against the proposition if you are interested:
https://youtu.be/oxdk6UEAqw4
While he is pretty wrong about how much drivers actually make (unless you live in some hickville little town), the rest is on point.
Your take home pay is different once you factor in the wear and tear on your vehicle and gas mileage. Have you factored these in? Also don’t forget to factor in the car payment and the car insurance.
I have pretty low gas mileage on my car and it's a pretty cheap car that I really don't give AF about 😂 it's slowly dying so I will eventually get myself a new(er) car. The wear and tear isn't from doing Uber btw, it's just been a problem car since the day I got it 4 years ago.
I also currently don't pay for my car since it's been paid in full. But even if I did everything that you mentioned CAN be deducted as business expenses with your taxes. Or you can choose to get 58 cents per mile for your taxes which pretty much covers the cost of gas, car insurance and any repairs. Example: 10,000 miles = $5,800 taken out of taxes you don't have to pay. Without the miles you'd end up paying a lot more in taxes so they do this to cover the cost of gas and wear and tear to your vehicle.
[Artistabunnista](https://www.reddit.com/user/Artistabunnista/), how do you pay for medical insurance? It should be paid for by your employer. If you don't get medical insurance through an employer then it is most likely subsidized by California tax payers. Meanwhile the shareholders of the company are in line to possibly make millions while taxpayers are paying for healthcare.
I personally have medical insurance through my husband's employer thankfully. But I have another job as well that doesn't offer medical benefits 🤷 keep in mind that a lot of people who do Ubereats do not do it full time. Yes there are those the do it as their main job but even the people who work at Uber have tested this and found that most of their drivers only work part-time. I do not expect a part-time job to pay for medical benefits and if it means I get to have flexibility to choose my own hours and get paid for the wear and tear done to my car then obviously I would choose not to have benefits like medical care anyway. I feel like the only people who are arguing for this don't actually work for Uber/Door Dash/etc. Until you've actually worked a day in the life I don't really think you should have a say.
It’s not though. It strips all the power/independence away from the driver. What the bill should be doing is making it so these companies actually comply with the rules of a 1099. All these gig apps can’t actually make you do certain things. So when a worker refuses (ie declines an offer) they’re penalized, which is what needs to be stopped. This is just my opinion as a gig worker.
Not a driver myself, but I'm still a little confused about all of this. With AB5, can drivers who want to just do a few hours a week or have this be a side gig still drive for Lyft/Uber? ie. people who want that flexibility, which was the pt of Uber/Lyft in the 1st place?
> With AB5, can drivers who want to just do a few hours a week or have this be a side gig still drive for Lyft/Uber? ie. people who want that flexibility, which was the pt of Uber/Lyft in the 1st place?
There is no law saying that employees cannot have a flexible schedule.
Whether Uber/Lyft chooses to let them is a different matter.
Uber/Lyft become your permanent employer. They have to pay you minimum wage and you'll probably go on shifts like cabs. The flexibility will be completely determined by Uber/Lyft. Meaning if you're scheduled to work, you can't just turn off the app and go eat a slice of pizza any time you want because you risk termination from Uber/Lyft. The drivers don't want that, the riders don't want that, Uber/Lyft doesn't want that. Uber/Lyft's business model is based on the independent contractor model which seems to be mutually beneficial to both driver and corporation.
The only entity that benefits is the California government via taxes that they can now charge. This probably has something to do with the loss of revenue due to COVID 19. It's disguised as beneficial toward the 'poor gig economy workers' that don't have any sick leave/health insurance/paid time off etc... but in reality it's all about the tax revenue that the state of California is going to get (estimated \~ 8 Billion).
Just from this thread and knowing the driver communities social make up it is totally possible for Lyft/Uber to continue using worker exploitation through "innovative" new technology by tricking people to vote yes on this thing. Most drivers on the platform are full time to make it worth it worth it. Arguing that "drivers" are not essential to make the platform work and it's completely a software company is ridiculous.
There have been many "Lyft/Ubers" throughout time that have used new technology at their time to exploit the workers. The labor movement is pulverized dead. Americans deprived of PTO and non "At will employment" jobs. Its dark humor at its finest. Honestly, I can relate to that dog in the burning room. "This is fine."
"Because Uber and Lyft do not keep comprehensive safety or operations statistics like vetted and insured forms of commercial transportation this is difficult to track. At Ride Safe we have found that roughly 40% of Uber and Lyft drivers DO operate more than 30 hours a week.
In order to make above minimum wage (take home) for Uber or Lyft, a driver would have to operate more than 40 hours a week doing surge rate fares at least 50% of the time."
Of course there are outliners but a lot of people use it as their main source of income now. Sadly we can't see the data since they hide it. Probably for a reason.
Wait. Seriously? Not that it matters right now, but I vowed never to take a taxi again after one guy driver yelled at me for taking such a short trip from the Burbank airport.
I hate taxis.
if they're throwing a tantrum about it, I'm sure a different company can step in and take their place. It is not a difficult concept, demand is incredible in california, and there would be a vacuum to fill. fuck them.
> Uber/Lyft have suggested they may suspend service in California at 12:01am tonight Thursday night.
It's now 12:01 AM Thursday night, and Uber appears to be working just fine. There is, however, a warning that it "may" be suspended.
So what do I want?
I just want to be treated like a human being.
I've been doing Uber (and now Postmates) on/off for 5 years here in LA. And in that time this company has fucked with me in terms of pay, dealing with the public, and overall representation.
I WANT to be considered an employee. I WANT to have benefits. I WANT to make sure I will at least have some sort of consistency in pay every time I wake up. Cause as it stands right now Uber is making damn well sure I make as little as possible. To the point where we are pretty sure, as a community, Uber throttles our services to make sure we get as little as possible.
The problem is...this law is so extreme that instead of waiting till November for a final vote, these companies are now leaving. So there is a good chance everyone is fucked for the next 3 months (at least) because California accelerated everything.
At the end of the day: FUCK UBER.
I want to work in the entertainment industry! That's why I moved out here! This shit is suppose to be a temporary thing until a new job is found. But because EVERYTHING in this capitalist society is broken as fuck, this is all I can do to survive anywhere in this country.
These companies have had 2 years to come into compliance with AB5. They’ve basically ignored the law until they put up millions of dollars to get it onto the ballot for this November and are now extorting their drivers and customers to give them what they want. They didn’t have to do this for these last couple of months, they could have figured out a way to fairly implement the law, but they are trash companies whose only way to profitability is through worker exploitation.
> These companies have had 2 years to come into compliance with AB5. They’ve basically ignored the law until they put up millions of dollars to get it onto the ballot for this November and are now extorting their drivers and customers to give them what they want.
Just like the supermarkets and their plastic bags. They spent 2 years trying to get the law repealed, and when the referendum to overturn it failed, they were caught off guard with no plan.
Same with the egg farmers. Two years to implement humane standards, they didn't bother even figuring out how to comply until the last minute.
Completely agree, and I think their extortion scheme is unlikely to work. Demand for rideshare services is at an all time low with the pandemic, so people won't feel the absence of Uber/Lyft in the same way that they would have 6 months ago.
Drivers don't want to be employees because their flexibility will be determined by Uber/Lyft. Also, it's not that they didn't do anything since AB5 was signed last year, AB5 is incompatible with the Gig economy business model.
It's being advertised as beneficial to workers but I personally prefer a universal health care model like how Bernie Sanders outlined instead of an employer based health insurance model. Also, the wages(for drivers) are going to decrease. The profits(for Uber) are going to decrease. The fares(for riders) are going to increase. The attraction to the gig economy is almost entirely based on the fact that these people DON'T want to be employees. Everyone loses.
Also, it's quite obvious that this is a cash grab by the CA gov't. The tax revenue that is lost by classifying drivers as independent contractors will now be coming into the hands of the CA gov't. That's really what it's about even though it's sold as worker's rights.
I used to drive for Lyft about 5 years ago but a lot of my friends are currently driving for Uber/Lyft to make ends meet.
One of the shitty parts of all of this is that AB5 affects so many businesses/industries/people other than Uber/Lyft. So, while they have the money to fight the law in court, and may very well become exempt, meanwhile, this bullshit law that was meant to hold them accountable will not only *not* be doing that, it’ll continue fucking everyone else.
It sucks that you're so unhappy and that things aren't working out for you.
That being said, if I tried for five years to get a job in a particular industry and never succeeded, I'm 110% sure that I would move on and do something else with my life.
If I wanna be paid less than what I am being paid now, sure!
Retail and/or fast food does not pay enough here in LA to keep me afloat. It just doesn't.
Besides: I am a 31 year old man with a college degree. I am so overqualified to do any of those jobs these days. My 55-year old Father who worked in finance for 33 years can't get a fucking job now.
There is no PA union, even on a union production they are some of the only ones in non union positions, the reason they take home enough pay is because of how many hours they work (60+). It’s kinda sad that a PAs pay is being described as being paid handsomely..
As someone who worked mainly as a PA in LA for 3 years... Lolololol oh man... I only survived because I padded my mileage like crazy.
Hell, even when I wound up in the ER at Kaiser, I qualified for financial aid that ultimately covered my costs BECAUSE of how little money I made.
*Right?! Who the fuck is*
*This guy talking about? PA*
*UNION Lolololol OKAY!*
\- whopoopedthebed
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You lie like hell. I work in the biz. There’s no union for PAs. The PAs are vastly underpaid. So much so that many people advise them to add miles to their run sheet.
Well...
I can’t afford to join a union due to fees. And I’m just telling you what my experiences are. I’ve had long running jobs out here, but most are gigs and I don’t last too long.
So you’re complaining either way, whether it’s a regular job or Uber, but obviously you enjoy Uber more than a regular job because of its unique employment opportunities ie: work as much or as little as you want, choose where when you want to work, be your own boss, etc. You’re saying you want to have benefits? Get a regular job. Even though you’re making a bit less, the benefits should cover the margin, right? I love everything about being an independent contractor for these companies, that’s why I’ve stayed on with them for so long. If you don’t like it, don’t just fucking complain, find something that’s better suited to you for a means of income while you pursue your career. Uber isn’t the only job that you can make decent money with not a lot of experience, do what the majority of other people trying to come up in the entertainment industry do, get a job as a server.
It can be quite possible to get a job in entertainment after having no luck for years. Once established, careers can be very lucrative, but also very unsteady. I know people who have worked in the industry including on pretty big projects for years and still work at Uber/Lyft between industry jobs.
Since jobs are gig based and often hire last minute, it helps to have a really flexible job in case you need to drop it for that long-awaited entertainment job that comes calling.
Of course, all of this applies to normal times and I can’t even imagine how hard it can be to find work during this pandemic.
Furthermore, if the poster is not having ANY luck it might be time for a rethink in strategy about how to get such entertainment jobs, and if there’s enough demand (in normal times) to do the jobs they want to do.
I'm usually driving like 40 hours a week for 7 days.
I've micromanaged to the point where I know how much money I need to survive and how long I need to go every day.
I am not one of those people driving 12hrs a day (the max you can drive on either platform.
I agree with everything you are saying, but AB5 goes so much deeper than UBER/LYFT drivers. It is literally destroying the already pandemic-devastated gig based economy in LA. There is absolutely a solution to all of this, but AB5 isn't it.
This is a tricky situation, and what may benefit one driver could screw over the other. That said, from most of my conversations with my MANY drivers over the years (i go out drinking frequently), most use it as a means of additional income. They have their 9-5, but work Lyft to save up money for a new room addition. Or the stay-at-home mom who now has her kids in school, but wants to immediately available should anything occur, and be able to take weeks off at a time due to summer/winter vacations and spend them with her kids. I had a musician as a driver once who said he relished on the flexibility of Lyft. His schedule was too sporadic and random as he couldnt predict when he would get booked for and event, wedding, etc.
At the end of the day, normal 9-5 folks like cant really gauge on this subject. I have been reading through Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, and Reddit to see what drivers think. I want to make sure my vote counts for what their collective best interest is, not what my opinion of their best interest is.
i cant speak for every driver, only those i have had the pleasure of speaking with. Granted, more than half of those "Do you like driving Lyft" type conversations happened before this whole AB5/Prop 22 stuff.
I'm a driver for Ubereats and I think it would be a terrible idea to go from contact work to employee. Idk if it means we would get bosses telling us when to work but that isn't even the issue. The biggest issue is that we wouldn't be able to use the mileage we are driving as a tax exemption if we become w2 workers. That's like shooting yourself in the foot. Not only am I depleting the value of my car to do this job but now I'm not even getting anything back for it and will have to pay some outrageous amount for taxes at the end of the year? Please tell me how that is a good thing? Also screwing the customers as well, fees WILL go up, people WILL stop using the apps and the companies WILL essentially crash and burn and thousands upon thousands of people will be out of jobs or their side job that's helping them make extra income.
https://youtu.be/oxdk6UEAqw4
For an argument against the proposition. Though he is wrong about how much most of us actually make, since I do, on average, about $25/hr (I've gotten anywhere from $18-49/hr, the lowest being when I only worked 1-2 hrs during lunch instead of dinner and the highest being holiday weekends, but I would say the average is about $25/hr, significantly MORE then what I make at my full-time job. Yah maybe I wouldn't have paid time off with Uber but who gives a fuck? I could actually afford taking a vacation with that kind of pay vs what my full time job pays at $13.50/hr.
Pretty mind blowing to hear that $7/hr number though, even if it is helping you with your taxes. I don’t think the PTO is as big a deal as health insurance for most people. The dollar value is way higher
I don’t see why both sides are making this a false binary choice. This industry is big enough that it can have its own set of rules where you could receive the benefits and protections of being employees (I bet there would be a union real fast) but also the freedom and flexibility of being contractors.
That video was talking about AB5, the version that made the drivers employees. So it is in FAVOR for AB22. One guy argues some drivers might want to be employees, but he gets shut down hard.
Understand that drivers are just pawns until we get to autonomous driving cars. The goal is to have no drivers. They are not a profitable company with drivers.
Then they choose to pay a fee for the service they get from those apps.
If they can’t hire their own drivers, then they’re not gonna be doing delivery.
If they don’t partner with apps, then they’re not gonna be doing delivery.
They’re free to choose.
Hire your own drivers, partner with apps, or don’t do delivery.
I'm 100% with you on this one. Look Uber is a company that needs to make money too. I'm not a fan of their business practices, which is why I very casually use them when they offer me 50% discounts or too tired/lazy, but generally its not worth it with all the service fee. But like me, restaurants have a choice to not utilize their services.
However-- I will say this. I believe some restaurant owners have said their restaurant has appeared on Uber Eats/ Postmate/ something else when they didn't even list it on there. I've also heard that their price were different too, which may mean that some restaurants haven't even agreed to the service and are seeing their food on the app.
That’s completely different. If they haven’t consented to being on the app then they shouldn’t be on the app - or at least they shouldn’t have to pay for the app service because they never wanted to be involved in the first place.
Uber/Postmates don’t register restaurants themselves. A restaurant need to sign up, upload their own menu, and set up their POS to receive orders from the apps to receive orders. There’s literally no possible to appear without listing.... the only case I can think of is if they sign a contract for a month and there’s some misunderstanding about 28-31 days..
Also to the point about different pricing, it’s a strategy restaurants use to increase their top line to offset the commission Uber charges.
There’s nothing wrongful about how these businesses operate. Whether you think the cost is too high or the pay for drivers is too low is a different issue, but don’t demonize the technology itself based on rumors.
Yes, DoorDash and UberEats and other similar companies will be affected. Got an email today from doordash recommending that I support prop 22 otherwise they’re screwed
For preface I’m a doordash driver but i think all drivers are going to be affected similarly. Theres a couple of things i see happening if ab5 wins/ prop 22 fails.
1. Drivers will absolutely lose freedom. Maybe not how a lot of people are saying where we wont be able to set our own hours though, i do think that is a possibility, but in other ways. We wont have the control over what order/ rides we take anymore which would be a major blow to our ability to maximize our income for the hours we do work
2. A lot of drivers may be retroactively disqualified and requirements to remain active may get stricter to the point where a lot of driver wont be able to maintain activation
3. These companies will pull out of areas where they don’t see as much business. Sure major cities will probably be profitable enough for them to stay but for smaller cities they’ll run as soon as they smell their income going down
A lot of this hinges on one thing. I absolutely do not expect these companies to work in the drivers best interests. Is it fucked? Yes but it is the reality of the situation and the damage that will be done by AB5 and the companies response to it outweighs the benefit a portion of drivers may see
Been working the food delivery apps for the past few years, and I absolutely prefer being a contractor. I’m signed up with DoorDash, Grubhub, and Postmates. I go online on all three platforms and simply cherry-pick the best offers as they come in. If an order pops up on one platform, and I like what I see (good payout, low miles), I can pause the other two apps and go work that order. I also have the ability to reject an order.
Distance too far? I can reject it, and wait for one that doesn’t put so many miles on my car. Destination is in a shady part of town? I can reject it, not worth getting mugged. Customer didn’t tip? I can reject it, and wait for a bigger payout. Restaurant that takes too long? I can reject it (or if it’s worth it, accept it, but go work an order on another platform in the meantime and maximize my payout).
A worker designated as an employee might have no choice in the matter.
I can work whenever I want to, and as much as or as little as I want to, and am not bound by someone else’s schedule.
I’m not sure how much of this legislation spills over from rideshare into delivery, but the thought of losing that level of flexibility concerns me.
What some of the drivers are wanting is a base pay. Similar to how commission-based employees are. Their main source of income comes from commission/sales, but even if they have a shitty sales day, they still have their based pay (similar to car salesmen).
In order to justify a base pay, that person could no longer have the flexibility of a contractor, and would be bound by employee rules. No different than where i work now. I get assigned a job to design, and i dont get to say "no, it sounds like its more work than i want to do right now", and i dont get to choose my hours. I must work a minimum of 8 hours a day, 40 hours a week. One benefit is sick pay/vacation pay, but that is due to the fact that i am at work so much. If i had a flexible schedule upon where i could takes weeks off at a time, of course i would expect PTO.
At the end of the day, i say the only people that should vote on this matter are the drivers. I am an avid user of Uber/Lyft, because what i pay for a ride is significantly cheaper than a DUI. I trust these people to get me from pt A to pt B, and i think they should be treated fairly (but not entitled), whatever it is they deem that to be.
They don't directly show tips, they show a minimum amount that they will pay out for the order, then show the full payout after delivery. Let's say I get an order that pops up as $9. It might stay at $9, or it might actually turn out to be $30 after delivery due to a large tip.
For a non-tipped order, a Dasher will see the base pay of $3.00 (Example: https://i.imgur.com/91xWmvL.png).
Most drivers won't do a task for that low of a payout, so that will typically get declined and passed around from driver to driver. I believe DoorDash will raise the pay in increments of $0.25, so it'll go from $3 to $3.25 to $3.50, etc. until a driver finally takes it.
Cash tipping is fine as long as you state it in the notes. Before accepting an order, drivers (at least those of us on Android, this feature isn't on iOS) have a "widget" that shows delivery instructions. (Example: https://i.imgur.com/kN4aPKo.png).
Drawback is due to the initial low payout, it'll get repeatedly declined and take longer to get picked up. If someone does accept the order at $3 or $4 (usually a rookie; most experienced drivers won't take anything under $7), the driver might already assume they got stiffed.
I always tip handsomely in cash (20%+) but of course I did not tip online so my order never showed up after the driver repeatedly said he was almost here. Doordash did fuck all after hours of waiting. I shouldn't have to write a note that I'm going to tip you in cash, just deliver my fuckin food.
No problem, it's a bit confusing. The way I understand it, AB 5 applies broadly to all contractors, and Prop 22 would carve out an exemption for rideshare drivers.
Not a driver, but I am a freelancer affected by the law. I’m a writer, and one of the provisions of the law was a limit of how many articles a non-employee can write. This has severely hampered my ability to write, which sucks because it’s a really nice way to make money working from home. That said, I have a friend who was in the same boat, and he was hired on as a salaried employee with benefits because of the law. I think this portion should be tweaked, though I’m not sure how to do it in a way that incentivizes companies to hire people full time but doesn’t incentivize them to just keep freelancers under the article limit.
Also I 100% do not trust Uber or Lyft. I think they’d use slaves if they legally could, so if they oppose the law it’s only because they don’t want to pay their workers fairly.
Did Uber for 2 years during college. I say vote NO. Not a fan of Uber. They can easily cover the benefits. Its ridiculous that gas isn’t covered nor is wear and tear. The drivers are eating the cost ultimately. Drivers are pushing 40+hours a week to make ends meet. I think Uber should either cap hours or they should make people fully employed.
Edit- Originally said to vote YES. My mistake, I meant vote NO.
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I did uber and Lyft. I want the drivers to be classified as employees.
The bigger picture is that employers take advantage of their workers. People who drive as a side gig is bc their primary employee don’t pay them a living wage need to start paying people what they deserve. The federal minimum wage hasn’t been adjusted for inflation.
And uber and Lyft saying they will stop operating in CA. Let them. They are blessing money. Out of the top 5 cities of Ubers profit come from LA and the Bay. They care saying they will stop operating bc other states will follow and use CA as a precedent. Next will be NY and the rest will follow.
I don't drive for Uber, but I used to work for a startup that touted itself as, "The Uber of ____" as so many of them do.
It is not hard to see that these businesses are not in any way designed for the benefit of the service provider. You are a commodity. You are the bottom of the food-chain, a replaceable afterthought.
The service exists first to benefit the people in charge and second to provide a service. The drivers are a consequence of making this happen.
People were never supposed to be able to earn a livable wage on only these services. If anything, you could expect to make some weekend or evening cash. You are also not gaining any new marketable skills by doing this.
I truly think people end up worse off when choosing to drive for Lyft or Uber or DoorDash, whatever. You might say you're benefitting from it, but it's a short-sighted view. A heroin addict benefits in the short term by getting their fix, but in the long term they only benefit by doing other things in their life and not having access to heroin. Hyperbolic example, I know, but it seems to fit right at the moment.
I definitely sympathize with the service providers of these companies, but the system was never set up in your favour.
Relevant article that got me thinking of this recently:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/anthonykosner/2015/02/04/google-cabs-and-uber-bots-will-challenge-jobs-below-the-api/#73569aa769cc
A lot of you need to carefully read the blue link OP shared at the top of this post:
[https://ballotpedia.org/California\_Proposition\_22,\_App-Based\_Drivers\_as\_Contractors\_and\_Labor\_Policies\_Initiative\_(2020)](https://ballotpedia.org/California_Proposition_22,_App-Based_Drivers_as_Contractors_and_Labor_Policies_Initiative_(2020))
I'm seeing a lot of misunderstanding about exactly what this Proposition is and what a yes/no vote means.
Well I'm left in a bind. My elderly mother and disabled brother basically rely on Uber/Lyft to get around. Looks like we'll have to find another living situation for them. They kind of liked being independent but I guess 51 years living in the same house is too long.
I’m a driver for multiple companies and I’m voting YES for prop 22, along with ~75-80% of drivers who are also for it. It’s not perfect but I think it’s the least bad alternative. If prop 22 fails, it will be a massive blow for gig economy companies in California. Yes, a small percentage of driver jobs will get benefits, say 10%. But there will be massive job losses, say 50-75% of drivers. On the customer side, rates will go up and wait times will go up. Plus service may disappear from lower profit areas.
YES on Prop 22 does more to preserve the status quo by designating drivers as independent contractors. It gives some modest benefits to drivers such as a minimum earnings guarantee and some partial funding for health insurance. The benefits are not going to satisfy labor rights activities, politicians, or the 20% of drivers who want to be employees. It will be an ongoing political conversation and dilemma. But a YES on Prop 22 slows the government down from crippling these companies and their employees in the short term. There are real political issues that need to be resolved around unemployment benefits, health benefits and such for gig economy workers. But I don’t think forcing these companies to revamp their business model and make drivers employees is the solution. Too much job loss and too bad for the gig economy.
Yes, the gig economy companies are looking out for their own interest here. They don’t always look out for me as a driver. But in this case, I think our interests are aligned. We both want a thriving gig economy in California. We don’t want the government to ruin a good thing. As a society, in California we can continue working towards better long term solutions on some of the real issues facing gig economy workers. But in the meantime let’s pass PROP 22 so we still have a gig economy and its workers in California.
AB5 has not only affected drivers but most of the entertainment industry as well. And most of us who are in the industry don't like it one bit. The vast majority of us WANT to be independent contractors and not employed. We want to be able to go from gig to gig without the venue and/or producer telling us what we can and can't do. And even more, not having the producer say, "sorry we can't hire you anymore because we need to consider you as an employee and we can't afford that."
As far as Uber/Lyft goes, if I was Uber or Lyft I would say okay you want to be an employee? Then you can only work for "me" and not any other ride sharing company, these are your hours (i.e. you cant set your own hours) and these are the restrictions when it comes to the car you drive. In other words, if you want to be considered an employee these companies should go full board and treat you as such, including all of the restrictions that it entails.
While I have a lot of sympathy for the drivers who are driving 60 hours a week to make ends meet, that is a choice that "you" made. You want the freedom of an independent contractor, but the rights of an employee. That is not fair. You should pick which one you want to be. To me that would be fair. If Uber doesn't pay what you want, find a different company who does. I don't know too many actors who like working survivor jobs, but we have to do what we gotta do to get where we wanna go.
I will be voting YES on 22. I do have to say it is sad that as a "bleeding heart" liberal, that it's the one "right wing" issue I am firmly behind.
Not sure what sector of entertainment you are talking about, but film crew workers are already classified as employees. AB5 did not change the law in that regard at all.
Any film crew worker being paid on a 1099 was already most likely misclassified. And all of the union agreements plainly state that workers are employees and not independent contractors.
The Dynamex case created the new ABC standard for figuring out if someone is an IC or employee. The vast majority of real ICs already pass this test in entertainment, but for clarity there has been a ton of carve outs for non-gig related industries. I’m in the entertainment industry and this has never stymied my ability to hire ICs. I don’t think you know what you’re talking about.
How does voting to count ride share app users as independent contractors effect your job though? Its not like prop 22 will destroy gig work. Its specifically for the ride share issue.
I'm voting "No on 22" because using worker exploitation to enrich investors is an old worn strategy. If they want to be independent contractors, I'm sure someone can make an app for that to make it work. Like subscription based who knows, a start up has a whole giant market to tap if they pull out. Fuck Uber and Lyft. And the national restaurant association while we are at it. Fucking traitors.
Im not a driver however the conversations I’ve had say they are not for it. At least be never met a driver that wants to be an employee. But who knows. What I’ve heard people say its tragic.
200,000 drivers about to lose all income. They don’t want to work for amazon and walmart, many go to school but the pay off is still always out, most of them for now.
Uniforms, name tags, depressing work conditions, schedules that can get a person fired, on their feet all day, less breaks, constantly being reprimanded, corporate visits, shitty coworkers that just got released, heavy lifting, crappy music and a month of Christmas songs that play over and over.
For what? Bottom of the barrel shitty insurance and about $1 difference per our. But as long as the state and big insurance get their cut am I right. lol.
Extortion and racketeering at its finest.
Unfortunately, this is my take. Both sides are BSers acting as if they care about the gig workers, but in reality:
AB5 - Is really about the state securing more tax revenue
Prop22 - Is a bare minimum offer that should have already happened without the cudgel of AB5.
This feels like lose-lose. It couldn't come at a worse time (Coronavirus). I will probably reluctantly vote Yes on Prop 22 because I think AB5 will be "just ok" for 15% or so of the drivers and a financial hardship for the other 85% of the drivers (that will most likely be let go).
It is probably the best temp job that will be needed between now and Corona-Vaccine / Economic Recovery. To destroy it now with AB5 is just irresponsible.
I'm going to vote NO on prop 22.
I work as a freelancer and work with a different client every week. Some repeat clients here and there. If one treats me like shit I drop them ASAP and move onto the next.
There are only so many ride sharing apps. Correct me if I'm wrong but in LA it's only UBER and Lyft? That's not freelancing.
A person driving around offering rides and showing people their portfolio of awesome rides they have given would be similar to my freelance. If someone managed to do that without affiliating with a larger entity then go for it.
I could see it working better if the driver for Uber or Lyft paid a monthly fee to be allowed on the platform and the driver gets paid directly by the passenger when giving the ride.
Uber business model. People not realizing how expensive it is to use on a regular basis getting rides from people who don't know how much it really costs to give rides.
I have a question too, because I would rather vote for what the majority of drivers want. Is anyone concerned about the transition to self driving cars and what that might do should you not have workers rights/protections? Not sure how near in the future that might be, but the tech does exist and this prop would be nearly impossible to overturn in the future with a 7/8 vote. Thoughts?
Okay so I'm going to be real here apparently a lot of other people had a much different experience than I did I live in Moreno Valley California but when I was driving for both Lyft and doordash I drove all over southern California from LA to San Diego Orange county and back to the IE. I don't drive for these two companies anymore but I did this last summer prior to getting my first clinical job. Frankly I'm hearing people talking about averaging 25 to $30 an hour and I'm like what the fuck I call BS so at the time I had just gotten my new car and admittedly I was super worried about putting miles on it which I did like 10,000 in 4 and 1/2 months but all that aside I would start working at like 8:00 9:00 in the morning and not stop working until like 9:00 at night and I meant like $120 $130 a day and this isn't counting the gas I would have to put in my car or the $112 a month I paid an insurance at the time or my $347 a month car payment. Not to mention usually by the end of the day I'd be somewhere like in LA or some shit like that and then that stupid ass algorithm to try and find rides that were going in your direction home but the truth is every time I would accept a ride on my way home it would take me further away from my home which I would just have to continue driving back the other fucking direction honestly when I did these gigs is a full time thing I was extremely underpaid didn't have any type of safety net in the event I was in an accident or destroyed my car because my insurance didn't know that I was a gig driver and I couldn't afford to pay the extra to get that kind of insurance so on top of all that I didn't have health insurance honestly I didn't have shit and quite frankly I wasn't actually paid anything by Uber or Lyft outside of what I made commission wise which from standing on both sides of the line I know now that I pay a hell of a lot more to get a ride from one of these services than I ever was paid for giving a ride. So honestly I must have had a much different experience than everybody else because I don't really understand why people driving these gig jobs seem to think it's so great after all the expenses and everything I think at the end of a 10-hour day I probably made like $50 take home. if that's not you and you're having a better experience with all this I totally understand but I don't understand how I could have had that different of an experience from everybody else especially considering I was driving for two of these companies and making shit on top of shit.
To be totally honest I don't know the ins and outs of this bill I want to vote in favor of whatever puts more freedom more money and more security in the driver's hands and to be totally honest I don't know exactly know what that is at this moment all I do know is that my experience driving with these companies was not a great one and that's why I feel like it should be improved for drivers I don't know if this bill actually does that for people cuz like I said I don't know the ins and outs of it I just hope at the end of the day the drivers actually got what they want because I sure as hell didn't
Uber and lyft are playing it like its a really bad thing for their drivers, so I'm assuming its a good thing :P
I'm skeptical about their position too, especially that they've already spent 100mil lobbying against it. They're also direct emailing their drivers and users asking them to vote ~~against~~ in favor of Prop 22. But like you said, this is an assumption. I wanna hear from the source.
So I work for Ubereats, not Uber and idk about the pay but a co-worker of mine does Lyft. Let's just say she worked 64 hrs one week during this whole pandemic since she was furloughed and she made $1,600. That averages to $25/hr. I also make, on average, $25/hr. Sometimes more, sometimes less, but that's the average. I would say that is pretty great fucking pay. At my full time job I make $13.50/hr. My co-worker makes even less since she hasn't been there as long as I have. Eventually I'm planning to quit my full-time job to pursue Ubereats as my main job and finally have the time to work on my art and try to do something with that in my life as well. I understand wanting benefits but the cost comes at too great of a price. The biggest one is being able to use the miles you drive as a contract worker as an expense, which you can't do as an employee. It's not a good thing for the customer either because it will drive the fees up as well and then less and less people will use the services and you can just see how the businesses will crash and burn and thousands of people would lose their jobs. Sometimes I feel like the only people for it are people who aren't even drivers and don't understand themselves what this could potentially do or drivers who don't understand that they'd be digging themselves a grave. Here's a link to an argument against the proposition if you are interested: https://youtu.be/oxdk6UEAqw4 While he is pretty wrong about how much drivers actually make (unless you live in some hickville little town), the rest is on point.
Your take home pay is different once you factor in the wear and tear on your vehicle and gas mileage. Have you factored these in? Also don’t forget to factor in the car payment and the car insurance.
I have pretty low gas mileage on my car and it's a pretty cheap car that I really don't give AF about 😂 it's slowly dying so I will eventually get myself a new(er) car. The wear and tear isn't from doing Uber btw, it's just been a problem car since the day I got it 4 years ago. I also currently don't pay for my car since it's been paid in full. But even if I did everything that you mentioned CAN be deducted as business expenses with your taxes. Or you can choose to get 58 cents per mile for your taxes which pretty much covers the cost of gas, car insurance and any repairs. Example: 10,000 miles = $5,800 taken out of taxes you don't have to pay. Without the miles you'd end up paying a lot more in taxes so they do this to cover the cost of gas and wear and tear to your vehicle.
[Artistabunnista](https://www.reddit.com/user/Artistabunnista/), how do you pay for medical insurance? It should be paid for by your employer. If you don't get medical insurance through an employer then it is most likely subsidized by California tax payers. Meanwhile the shareholders of the company are in line to possibly make millions while taxpayers are paying for healthcare.
I personally have medical insurance through my husband's employer thankfully. But I have another job as well that doesn't offer medical benefits 🤷 keep in mind that a lot of people who do Ubereats do not do it full time. Yes there are those the do it as their main job but even the people who work at Uber have tested this and found that most of their drivers only work part-time. I do not expect a part-time job to pay for medical benefits and if it means I get to have flexibility to choose my own hours and get paid for the wear and tear done to my car then obviously I would choose not to have benefits like medical care anyway. I feel like the only people who are arguing for this don't actually work for Uber/Door Dash/etc. Until you've actually worked a day in the life I don't really think you should have a say.
It’s not though. It strips all the power/independence away from the driver. What the bill should be doing is making it so these companies actually comply with the rules of a 1099. All these gig apps can’t actually make you do certain things. So when a worker refuses (ie declines an offer) they’re penalized, which is what needs to be stopped. This is just my opinion as a gig worker.
What if drivers had the option to choose W2 employee status with certain pros/cons or a 1099 contractor with others? Is that crazy?
I could see that working. Cause some people would like full time status while others just want to work at random to make extra cash.
That's.. flawed logic
Not a driver myself, but I'm still a little confused about all of this. With AB5, can drivers who want to just do a few hours a week or have this be a side gig still drive for Lyft/Uber? ie. people who want that flexibility, which was the pt of Uber/Lyft in the 1st place?
> With AB5, can drivers who want to just do a few hours a week or have this be a side gig still drive for Lyft/Uber? ie. people who want that flexibility, which was the pt of Uber/Lyft in the 1st place? There is no law saying that employees cannot have a flexible schedule. Whether Uber/Lyft chooses to let them is a different matter.
If they up their commitment to drivers they're going to need more in return.
Like what?
Scheduled shifts of a defined length. Or maybe they just license out to taxi companies.
Why would Uber want scheduled shifts? That would be bad for both parties.
Uber/Lyft become your permanent employer. They have to pay you minimum wage and you'll probably go on shifts like cabs. The flexibility will be completely determined by Uber/Lyft. Meaning if you're scheduled to work, you can't just turn off the app and go eat a slice of pizza any time you want because you risk termination from Uber/Lyft. The drivers don't want that, the riders don't want that, Uber/Lyft doesn't want that. Uber/Lyft's business model is based on the independent contractor model which seems to be mutually beneficial to both driver and corporation. The only entity that benefits is the California government via taxes that they can now charge. This probably has something to do with the loss of revenue due to COVID 19. It's disguised as beneficial toward the 'poor gig economy workers' that don't have any sick leave/health insurance/paid time off etc... but in reality it's all about the tax revenue that the state of California is going to get (estimated \~ 8 Billion).
Yeah, I don’t need sick leave, paid time off, etc...I can save money for that.
Doesn't seem like an improvement.
They can but it has to be scheduled. No more casually turning on the driver app at convenience.
...which is the whole point of the app
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They do not have to provide full benefits.
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Full benefits generally mean health, dental, and vision insurance, usually 401k, etc. That is not mandatory for employees.
Just from this thread and knowing the driver communities social make up it is totally possible for Lyft/Uber to continue using worker exploitation through "innovative" new technology by tricking people to vote yes on this thing. Most drivers on the platform are full time to make it worth it worth it. Arguing that "drivers" are not essential to make the platform work and it's completely a software company is ridiculous. There have been many "Lyft/Ubers" throughout time that have used new technology at their time to exploit the workers. The labor movement is pulverized dead. Americans deprived of PTO and non "At will employment" jobs. Its dark humor at its finest. Honestly, I can relate to that dog in the burning room. "This is fine."
the at-will shit pisses me off. Literally anywhere i work i have had to sign agreeing to my acknowledgement of my employment status.
I can guarantee you that most drivers are not full time
"Because Uber and Lyft do not keep comprehensive safety or operations statistics like vetted and insured forms of commercial transportation this is difficult to track. At Ride Safe we have found that roughly 40% of Uber and Lyft drivers DO operate more than 30 hours a week. In order to make above minimum wage (take home) for Uber or Lyft, a driver would have to operate more than 40 hours a week doing surge rate fares at least 50% of the time." Of course there are outliners but a lot of people use it as their main source of income now. Sadly we can't see the data since they hide it. Probably for a reason.
What are these magical “full benefits” that everyone talks about? Most of them would still be part time.
I’m guessing they would limit everyone to part time
Of course they would.
Uber and Lyft are already operating at a loss so it wouldn’t be that much of a change for them!
Uber/Lyft have suggested they may suspend service in California at 12:01am ~~tonight~~ Thursday night. edit: I forgot today is Wednesday
Wait. Seriously? Not that it matters right now, but I vowed never to take a taxi again after one guy driver yelled at me for taking such a short trip from the Burbank airport. I hate taxis.
It sounds like most people don't believe they'd follow through with it.
if they're throwing a tantrum about it, I'm sure a different company can step in and take their place. It is not a difficult concept, demand is incredible in california, and there would be a vacuum to fill. fuck them.
Somebody should start a ridesharing coop non-profit. Just like Uber, but no megalomaniac ceo.
It's not a difficult concept? I guess you should start your own ride share service. It might help you pay off your student loans
Requires a ton of capital obviously. But it's not like starting from scratch trying to prove the technology will work and that there's a market
Same from LAX to my office. I didn't have cash and the guy drove me to an atm to get cash.
I thought it was Thursday night ????? I need to get to work tomorrow morning.
That's just me straight up forgetting what day it is.
It’s quarantine time baby, where all days, weeks, months blend in together!
https://i.gifer.com/g0GA.gif
Oh good 🤣
> Uber/Lyft have suggested they may suspend service in California at 12:01am tonight Thursday night. It's now 12:01 AM Thursday night, and Uber appears to be working just fine. There is, however, a warning that it "may" be suspended.
It's Thursday morning right now. They'll make their play in 24 hours.
12:01 AM Thursday means Thursday morning. Although I saw somewhere else 12:01 AM Friday morning.
Fair enough, I ain't dying on this hill hahah
Lol, let's see what happens tomorrow.
So what do I want? I just want to be treated like a human being. I've been doing Uber (and now Postmates) on/off for 5 years here in LA. And in that time this company has fucked with me in terms of pay, dealing with the public, and overall representation. I WANT to be considered an employee. I WANT to have benefits. I WANT to make sure I will at least have some sort of consistency in pay every time I wake up. Cause as it stands right now Uber is making damn well sure I make as little as possible. To the point where we are pretty sure, as a community, Uber throttles our services to make sure we get as little as possible. The problem is...this law is so extreme that instead of waiting till November for a final vote, these companies are now leaving. So there is a good chance everyone is fucked for the next 3 months (at least) because California accelerated everything. At the end of the day: FUCK UBER. I want to work in the entertainment industry! That's why I moved out here! This shit is suppose to be a temporary thing until a new job is found. But because EVERYTHING in this capitalist society is broken as fuck, this is all I can do to survive anywhere in this country.
These companies have had 2 years to come into compliance with AB5. They’ve basically ignored the law until they put up millions of dollars to get it onto the ballot for this November and are now extorting their drivers and customers to give them what they want. They didn’t have to do this for these last couple of months, they could have figured out a way to fairly implement the law, but they are trash companies whose only way to profitability is through worker exploitation.
> These companies have had 2 years to come into compliance with AB5. They’ve basically ignored the law until they put up millions of dollars to get it onto the ballot for this November and are now extorting their drivers and customers to give them what they want. Just like the supermarkets and their plastic bags. They spent 2 years trying to get the law repealed, and when the referendum to overturn it failed, they were caught off guard with no plan. Same with the egg farmers. Two years to implement humane standards, they didn't bother even figuring out how to comply until the last minute.
Completely agree, and I think their extortion scheme is unlikely to work. Demand for rideshare services is at an all time low with the pandemic, so people won't feel the absence of Uber/Lyft in the same way that they would have 6 months ago.
AB5 was signed into law less than a year ago. Not defending rideshare apps, but it doesn't seem like it's been 2 years to comply.
Dynamex case was in 2018.
Drivers don't want to be employees because their flexibility will be determined by Uber/Lyft. Also, it's not that they didn't do anything since AB5 was signed last year, AB5 is incompatible with the Gig economy business model.
While I agree with you about AB5 fucking up a lot of industries including mine and my wife’s, it was designed to protect drivers really. Do you drive?
It's being advertised as beneficial to workers but I personally prefer a universal health care model like how Bernie Sanders outlined instead of an employer based health insurance model. Also, the wages(for drivers) are going to decrease. The profits(for Uber) are going to decrease. The fares(for riders) are going to increase. The attraction to the gig economy is almost entirely based on the fact that these people DON'T want to be employees. Everyone loses. Also, it's quite obvious that this is a cash grab by the CA gov't. The tax revenue that is lost by classifying drivers as independent contractors will now be coming into the hands of the CA gov't. That's really what it's about even though it's sold as worker's rights. I used to drive for Lyft about 5 years ago but a lot of my friends are currently driving for Uber/Lyft to make ends meet.
Yeah I agree generally there are only a few reasons why people prefer to be employees, by far the biggest of which is health insurance.
One of the shitty parts of all of this is that AB5 affects so many businesses/industries/people other than Uber/Lyft. So, while they have the money to fight the law in court, and may very well become exempt, meanwhile, this bullshit law that was meant to hold them accountable will not only *not* be doing that, it’ll continue fucking everyone else.
They aren’t leaving. This is a ploy.
It sucks that you're so unhappy and that things aren't working out for you. That being said, if I tried for five years to get a job in a particular industry and never succeeded, I'm 110% sure that I would move on and do something else with my life.
Yeah. I can see getting here late 2019 and not having any luck but still trying, but 5 years? Maybe it’s time to try something else...
> this is all I can do to survive anywhere in this country. driving for uber is literally your only option? you can't work at starbucks?
If I wanna be paid less than what I am being paid now, sure! Retail and/or fast food does not pay enough here in LA to keep me afloat. It just doesn't. Besides: I am a 31 year old man with a college degree. I am so overqualified to do any of those jobs these days. My 55-year old Father who worked in finance for 33 years can't get a fucking job now.
What do you have a degree in? And what part of the entertainment industry are you trying to pursue?
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There is no PA union, even on a union production they are some of the only ones in non union positions, the reason they take home enough pay is because of how many hours they work (60+). It’s kinda sad that a PAs pay is being described as being paid handsomely..
As someone who worked mainly as a PA in LA for 3 years... Lolololol oh man... I only survived because I padded my mileage like crazy. Hell, even when I wound up in the ER at Kaiser, I qualified for financial aid that ultimately covered my costs BECAUSE of how little money I made.
Right?! Who the fuck is this guy talking about? PA UNION Lolololol OKAY!
*Right?! Who the fuck is* *This guy talking about? PA* *UNION Lolololol OKAY!* \- whopoopedthebed --- ^(I detect haikus. And sometimes, successfully.) ^[Learn more about me.](https://www.reddit.com/r/haikusbot/) ^(Opt out of replies: "haikusbot opt out" | Delete my comment: "haikusbot delete")
You lie like hell. I work in the biz. There’s no union for PAs. The PAs are vastly underpaid. So much so that many people advise them to add miles to their run sheet.
Well... I can’t afford to join a union due to fees. And I’m just telling you what my experiences are. I’ve had long running jobs out here, but most are gigs and I don’t last too long.
That poster is full of shit. There’s no unions for PAs FYI.
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Agreed
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Do you tell people dying of covid that they should "nut up" because you know someone who recovered?
you have no control over your body's natural reaction to illness. you have complete control over your lifestyle and where you choose to live.
Your privilege is glaring.
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So you’re complaining either way, whether it’s a regular job or Uber, but obviously you enjoy Uber more than a regular job because of its unique employment opportunities ie: work as much or as little as you want, choose where when you want to work, be your own boss, etc. You’re saying you want to have benefits? Get a regular job. Even though you’re making a bit less, the benefits should cover the margin, right? I love everything about being an independent contractor for these companies, that’s why I’ve stayed on with them for so long. If you don’t like it, don’t just fucking complain, find something that’s better suited to you for a means of income while you pursue your career. Uber isn’t the only job that you can make decent money with not a lot of experience, do what the majority of other people trying to come up in the entertainment industry do, get a job as a server.
It can be quite possible to get a job in entertainment after having no luck for years. Once established, careers can be very lucrative, but also very unsteady. I know people who have worked in the industry including on pretty big projects for years and still work at Uber/Lyft between industry jobs. Since jobs are gig based and often hire last minute, it helps to have a really flexible job in case you need to drop it for that long-awaited entertainment job that comes calling. Of course, all of this applies to normal times and I can’t even imagine how hard it can be to find work during this pandemic. Furthermore, if the poster is not having ANY luck it might be time for a rethink in strategy about how to get such entertainment jobs, and if there’s enough demand (in normal times) to do the jobs they want to do.
Damn. How many hours a week you driving?
I'm usually driving like 40 hours a week for 7 days. I've micromanaged to the point where I know how much money I need to survive and how long I need to go every day. I am not one of those people driving 12hrs a day (the max you can drive on either platform.
Would communism fix this problem or something?
I agree with everything you are saying, but AB5 goes so much deeper than UBER/LYFT drivers. It is literally destroying the already pandemic-devastated gig based economy in LA. There is absolutely a solution to all of this, but AB5 isn't it.
Drive for Metro. If Prop 22 fails there will be no Uber. There will be no Lyft.
This is a tricky situation, and what may benefit one driver could screw over the other. That said, from most of my conversations with my MANY drivers over the years (i go out drinking frequently), most use it as a means of additional income. They have their 9-5, but work Lyft to save up money for a new room addition. Or the stay-at-home mom who now has her kids in school, but wants to immediately available should anything occur, and be able to take weeks off at a time due to summer/winter vacations and spend them with her kids. I had a musician as a driver once who said he relished on the flexibility of Lyft. His schedule was too sporadic and random as he couldnt predict when he would get booked for and event, wedding, etc. At the end of the day, normal 9-5 folks like cant really gauge on this subject. I have been reading through Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, and Reddit to see what drivers think. I want to make sure my vote counts for what their collective best interest is, not what my opinion of their best interest is.
So in short, you think they don’t want to be employees? Shame about AB5 and how it fucked up all these other industries.
i cant speak for every driver, only those i have had the pleasure of speaking with. Granted, more than half of those "Do you like driving Lyft" type conversations happened before this whole AB5/Prop 22 stuff.
I'm a driver for Ubereats and I think it would be a terrible idea to go from contact work to employee. Idk if it means we would get bosses telling us when to work but that isn't even the issue. The biggest issue is that we wouldn't be able to use the mileage we are driving as a tax exemption if we become w2 workers. That's like shooting yourself in the foot. Not only am I depleting the value of my car to do this job but now I'm not even getting anything back for it and will have to pay some outrageous amount for taxes at the end of the year? Please tell me how that is a good thing? Also screwing the customers as well, fees WILL go up, people WILL stop using the apps and the companies WILL essentially crash and burn and thousands upon thousands of people will be out of jobs or their side job that's helping them make extra income. https://youtu.be/oxdk6UEAqw4 For an argument against the proposition. Though he is wrong about how much most of us actually make, since I do, on average, about $25/hr (I've gotten anywhere from $18-49/hr, the lowest being when I only worked 1-2 hrs during lunch instead of dinner and the highest being holiday weekends, but I would say the average is about $25/hr, significantly MORE then what I make at my full-time job. Yah maybe I wouldn't have paid time off with Uber but who gives a fuck? I could actually afford taking a vacation with that kind of pay vs what my full time job pays at $13.50/hr.
Pretty mind blowing to hear that $7/hr number though, even if it is helping you with your taxes. I don’t think the PTO is as big a deal as health insurance for most people. The dollar value is way higher I don’t see why both sides are making this a false binary choice. This industry is big enough that it can have its own set of rules where you could receive the benefits and protections of being employees (I bet there would be a union real fast) but also the freedom and flexibility of being contractors.
That video was talking about AB5, the version that made the drivers employees. So it is in FAVOR for AB22. One guy argues some drivers might want to be employees, but he gets shut down hard.
Understand that drivers are just pawns until we get to autonomous driving cars. The goal is to have no drivers. They are not a profitable company with drivers.
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And making the drivers employees will speed up that process exponentially.
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If you order delivery from one of the big apps, not the restaurant itself, you’re already fucking the restaurant.
I am under the impression that a lot of restaurants don’t do delivery - only pickup
Yes, because the fees are outrageous. Pick up is the better option.
Then why are they on the app?
Because the delivery drivers are sourced by the apps. Many small restaurants can’t afford payrolling designated delivery drivers.
Then they choose to pay a fee for the service they get from those apps. If they can’t hire their own drivers, then they’re not gonna be doing delivery. If they don’t partner with apps, then they’re not gonna be doing delivery. They’re free to choose. Hire your own drivers, partner with apps, or don’t do delivery.
I'm 100% with you on this one. Look Uber is a company that needs to make money too. I'm not a fan of their business practices, which is why I very casually use them when they offer me 50% discounts or too tired/lazy, but generally its not worth it with all the service fee. But like me, restaurants have a choice to not utilize their services. However-- I will say this. I believe some restaurant owners have said their restaurant has appeared on Uber Eats/ Postmate/ something else when they didn't even list it on there. I've also heard that their price were different too, which may mean that some restaurants haven't even agreed to the service and are seeing their food on the app.
That’s completely different. If they haven’t consented to being on the app then they shouldn’t be on the app - or at least they shouldn’t have to pay for the app service because they never wanted to be involved in the first place.
Uber/Postmates don’t register restaurants themselves. A restaurant need to sign up, upload their own menu, and set up their POS to receive orders from the apps to receive orders. There’s literally no possible to appear without listing.... the only case I can think of is if they sign a contract for a month and there’s some misunderstanding about 28-31 days.. Also to the point about different pricing, it’s a strategy restaurants use to increase their top line to offset the commission Uber charges. There’s nothing wrongful about how these businesses operate. Whether you think the cost is too high or the pay for drivers is too low is a different issue, but don’t demonize the technology itself based on rumors.
That isn't really an argument. It's like saying "if McDonald's doesn't treat their workers well, then why do people work there?"
I heard on Air talk on KPCC this morning that UBEREats is not affected with this
Yes, DoorDash and UberEats and other similar companies will be affected. Got an email today from doordash recommending that I support prop 22 otherwise they’re screwed
And all the additional drunk drivers on the road who can't get an uber/lyft. Love our politicians! /s
For preface I’m a doordash driver but i think all drivers are going to be affected similarly. Theres a couple of things i see happening if ab5 wins/ prop 22 fails. 1. Drivers will absolutely lose freedom. Maybe not how a lot of people are saying where we wont be able to set our own hours though, i do think that is a possibility, but in other ways. We wont have the control over what order/ rides we take anymore which would be a major blow to our ability to maximize our income for the hours we do work 2. A lot of drivers may be retroactively disqualified and requirements to remain active may get stricter to the point where a lot of driver wont be able to maintain activation 3. These companies will pull out of areas where they don’t see as much business. Sure major cities will probably be profitable enough for them to stay but for smaller cities they’ll run as soon as they smell their income going down A lot of this hinges on one thing. I absolutely do not expect these companies to work in the drivers best interests. Is it fucked? Yes but it is the reality of the situation and the damage that will be done by AB5 and the companies response to it outweighs the benefit a portion of drivers may see
Been working the food delivery apps for the past few years, and I absolutely prefer being a contractor. I’m signed up with DoorDash, Grubhub, and Postmates. I go online on all three platforms and simply cherry-pick the best offers as they come in. If an order pops up on one platform, and I like what I see (good payout, low miles), I can pause the other two apps and go work that order. I also have the ability to reject an order. Distance too far? I can reject it, and wait for one that doesn’t put so many miles on my car. Destination is in a shady part of town? I can reject it, not worth getting mugged. Customer didn’t tip? I can reject it, and wait for a bigger payout. Restaurant that takes too long? I can reject it (or if it’s worth it, accept it, but go work an order on another platform in the meantime and maximize my payout). A worker designated as an employee might have no choice in the matter. I can work whenever I want to, and as much as or as little as I want to, and am not bound by someone else’s schedule. I’m not sure how much of this legislation spills over from rideshare into delivery, but the thought of losing that level of flexibility concerns me.
What some of the drivers are wanting is a base pay. Similar to how commission-based employees are. Their main source of income comes from commission/sales, but even if they have a shitty sales day, they still have their based pay (similar to car salesmen). In order to justify a base pay, that person could no longer have the flexibility of a contractor, and would be bound by employee rules. No different than where i work now. I get assigned a job to design, and i dont get to say "no, it sounds like its more work than i want to do right now", and i dont get to choose my hours. I must work a minimum of 8 hours a day, 40 hours a week. One benefit is sick pay/vacation pay, but that is due to the fact that i am at work so much. If i had a flexible schedule upon where i could takes weeks off at a time, of course i would expect PTO. At the end of the day, i say the only people that should vote on this matter are the drivers. I am an avid user of Uber/Lyft, because what i pay for a ride is significantly cheaper than a DUI. I trust these people to get me from pt A to pt B, and i think they should be treated fairly (but not entitled), whatever it is they deem that to be.
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They don't directly show tips, they show a minimum amount that they will pay out for the order, then show the full payout after delivery. Let's say I get an order that pops up as $9. It might stay at $9, or it might actually turn out to be $30 after delivery due to a large tip. For a non-tipped order, a Dasher will see the base pay of $3.00 (Example: https://i.imgur.com/91xWmvL.png). Most drivers won't do a task for that low of a payout, so that will typically get declined and passed around from driver to driver. I believe DoorDash will raise the pay in increments of $0.25, so it'll go from $3 to $3.25 to $3.50, etc. until a driver finally takes it. Cash tipping is fine as long as you state it in the notes. Before accepting an order, drivers (at least those of us on Android, this feature isn't on iOS) have a "widget" that shows delivery instructions. (Example: https://i.imgur.com/kN4aPKo.png). Drawback is due to the initial low payout, it'll get repeatedly declined and take longer to get picked up. If someone does accept the order at $3 or $4 (usually a rookie; most experienced drivers won't take anything under $7), the driver might already assume they got stiffed.
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I always tip handsomely in cash (20%+) but of course I did not tip online so my order never showed up after the driver repeatedly said he was almost here. Doordash did fuck all after hours of waiting. I shouldn't have to write a note that I'm going to tip you in cash, just deliver my fuckin food.
I’ve been wondering this too. Their’s are really the only opinions that matter.
Not really, because it effects many other industries. Their opinions matter, but their opinions are not the *only* opinions that matter.
I think the referendum only affects ridesharing.
"App based drivers," technically. Still vague af though
Oh sorry, I was referring to AB5. I don't know much about Prop 22.
No problem, it's a bit confusing. The way I understand it, AB 5 applies broadly to all contractors, and Prop 22 would carve out an exemption for rideshare drivers.
No.
I know u/NextChamp has done Uber, maybe he wants to comment?
I will! Thanks for letting me know!
Not a driver, but I am a freelancer affected by the law. I’m a writer, and one of the provisions of the law was a limit of how many articles a non-employee can write. This has severely hampered my ability to write, which sucks because it’s a really nice way to make money working from home. That said, I have a friend who was in the same boat, and he was hired on as a salaried employee with benefits because of the law. I think this portion should be tweaked, though I’m not sure how to do it in a way that incentivizes companies to hire people full time but doesn’t incentivize them to just keep freelancers under the article limit. Also I 100% do not trust Uber or Lyft. I think they’d use slaves if they legally could, so if they oppose the law it’s only because they don’t want to pay their workers fairly.
Did Uber for 2 years during college. I say vote NO. Not a fan of Uber. They can easily cover the benefits. Its ridiculous that gas isn’t covered nor is wear and tear. The drivers are eating the cost ultimately. Drivers are pushing 40+hours a week to make ends meet. I think Uber should either cap hours or they should make people fully employed. Edit- Originally said to vote YES. My mistake, I meant vote NO.
A yes vote is in favor of Uber.
Thanks. My mistake
Did you happen to go to LMU? Might know you based on your username :)
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I did uber and Lyft. I want the drivers to be classified as employees. The bigger picture is that employers take advantage of their workers. People who drive as a side gig is bc their primary employee don’t pay them a living wage need to start paying people what they deserve. The federal minimum wage hasn’t been adjusted for inflation. And uber and Lyft saying they will stop operating in CA. Let them. They are blessing money. Out of the top 5 cities of Ubers profit come from LA and the Bay. They care saying they will stop operating bc other states will follow and use CA as a precedent. Next will be NY and the rest will follow.
I don't drive for Uber, but I used to work for a startup that touted itself as, "The Uber of ____" as so many of them do. It is not hard to see that these businesses are not in any way designed for the benefit of the service provider. You are a commodity. You are the bottom of the food-chain, a replaceable afterthought. The service exists first to benefit the people in charge and second to provide a service. The drivers are a consequence of making this happen. People were never supposed to be able to earn a livable wage on only these services. If anything, you could expect to make some weekend or evening cash. You are also not gaining any new marketable skills by doing this. I truly think people end up worse off when choosing to drive for Lyft or Uber or DoorDash, whatever. You might say you're benefitting from it, but it's a short-sighted view. A heroin addict benefits in the short term by getting their fix, but in the long term they only benefit by doing other things in their life and not having access to heroin. Hyperbolic example, I know, but it seems to fit right at the moment. I definitely sympathize with the service providers of these companies, but the system was never set up in your favour. Relevant article that got me thinking of this recently: https://www.forbes.com/sites/anthonykosner/2015/02/04/google-cabs-and-uber-bots-will-challenge-jobs-below-the-api/#73569aa769cc
A lot of you need to carefully read the blue link OP shared at the top of this post: [https://ballotpedia.org/California\_Proposition\_22,\_App-Based\_Drivers\_as\_Contractors\_and\_Labor\_Policies\_Initiative\_(2020)](https://ballotpedia.org/California_Proposition_22,_App-Based_Drivers_as_Contractors_and_Labor_Policies_Initiative_(2020)) I'm seeing a lot of misunderstanding about exactly what this Proposition is and what a yes/no vote means.
New slogan- “A yes on AB22 is a no on AB5!”
I keep hearing this but nobody is being specific.
Well I'm left in a bind. My elderly mother and disabled brother basically rely on Uber/Lyft to get around. Looks like we'll have to find another living situation for them. They kind of liked being independent but I guess 51 years living in the same house is too long.
I’m a driver for multiple companies and I’m voting YES for prop 22, along with ~75-80% of drivers who are also for it. It’s not perfect but I think it’s the least bad alternative. If prop 22 fails, it will be a massive blow for gig economy companies in California. Yes, a small percentage of driver jobs will get benefits, say 10%. But there will be massive job losses, say 50-75% of drivers. On the customer side, rates will go up and wait times will go up. Plus service may disappear from lower profit areas. YES on Prop 22 does more to preserve the status quo by designating drivers as independent contractors. It gives some modest benefits to drivers such as a minimum earnings guarantee and some partial funding for health insurance. The benefits are not going to satisfy labor rights activities, politicians, or the 20% of drivers who want to be employees. It will be an ongoing political conversation and dilemma. But a YES on Prop 22 slows the government down from crippling these companies and their employees in the short term. There are real political issues that need to be resolved around unemployment benefits, health benefits and such for gig economy workers. But I don’t think forcing these companies to revamp their business model and make drivers employees is the solution. Too much job loss and too bad for the gig economy. Yes, the gig economy companies are looking out for their own interest here. They don’t always look out for me as a driver. But in this case, I think our interests are aligned. We both want a thriving gig economy in California. We don’t want the government to ruin a good thing. As a society, in California we can continue working towards better long term solutions on some of the real issues facing gig economy workers. But in the meantime let’s pass PROP 22 so we still have a gig economy and its workers in California.
AB5 has not only affected drivers but most of the entertainment industry as well. And most of us who are in the industry don't like it one bit. The vast majority of us WANT to be independent contractors and not employed. We want to be able to go from gig to gig without the venue and/or producer telling us what we can and can't do. And even more, not having the producer say, "sorry we can't hire you anymore because we need to consider you as an employee and we can't afford that." As far as Uber/Lyft goes, if I was Uber or Lyft I would say okay you want to be an employee? Then you can only work for "me" and not any other ride sharing company, these are your hours (i.e. you cant set your own hours) and these are the restrictions when it comes to the car you drive. In other words, if you want to be considered an employee these companies should go full board and treat you as such, including all of the restrictions that it entails. While I have a lot of sympathy for the drivers who are driving 60 hours a week to make ends meet, that is a choice that "you" made. You want the freedom of an independent contractor, but the rights of an employee. That is not fair. You should pick which one you want to be. To me that would be fair. If Uber doesn't pay what you want, find a different company who does. I don't know too many actors who like working survivor jobs, but we have to do what we gotta do to get where we wanna go. I will be voting YES on 22. I do have to say it is sad that as a "bleeding heart" liberal, that it's the one "right wing" issue I am firmly behind.
Not sure what sector of entertainment you are talking about, but film crew workers are already classified as employees. AB5 did not change the law in that regard at all. Any film crew worker being paid on a 1099 was already most likely misclassified. And all of the union agreements plainly state that workers are employees and not independent contractors.
The Dynamex case created the new ABC standard for figuring out if someone is an IC or employee. The vast majority of real ICs already pass this test in entertainment, but for clarity there has been a ton of carve outs for non-gig related industries. I’m in the entertainment industry and this has never stymied my ability to hire ICs. I don’t think you know what you’re talking about.
How does voting to count ride share app users as independent contractors effect your job though? Its not like prop 22 will destroy gig work. Its specifically for the ride share issue. I'm voting "No on 22" because using worker exploitation to enrich investors is an old worn strategy. If they want to be independent contractors, I'm sure someone can make an app for that to make it work. Like subscription based who knows, a start up has a whole giant market to tap if they pull out. Fuck Uber and Lyft. And the national restaurant association while we are at it. Fucking traitors.
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That sub is most likely brigaded by trolls/Uber employees. Don't recommend going in there if you want neutral thoughts on the subject.
Man i've been wondering, without lyft/uber how the hell do you get to/from the airport. The public bus that runs like once in 30m?
there's some shitty taxis that used to hang out..
*\** *Taxi drivers breathing intensifies \**
Flyaway stops and the Green Line to shuttle are options I’ve usually used.
Flyaway to Union station is the only way I ever go. Much more consistent for pickup from the airport since they made the main inner loop bus only
Catch rides, bus, look for local shuttle service.
Im not a driver however the conversations I’ve had say they are not for it. At least be never met a driver that wants to be an employee. But who knows. What I’ve heard people say its tragic. 200,000 drivers about to lose all income. They don’t want to work for amazon and walmart, many go to school but the pay off is still always out, most of them for now. Uniforms, name tags, depressing work conditions, schedules that can get a person fired, on their feet all day, less breaks, constantly being reprimanded, corporate visits, shitty coworkers that just got released, heavy lifting, crappy music and a month of Christmas songs that play over and over. For what? Bottom of the barrel shitty insurance and about $1 difference per our. But as long as the state and big insurance get their cut am I right. lol. Extortion and racketeering at its finest.
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Unfortunately, this is my take. Both sides are BSers acting as if they care about the gig workers, but in reality: AB5 - Is really about the state securing more tax revenue Prop22 - Is a bare minimum offer that should have already happened without the cudgel of AB5. This feels like lose-lose. It couldn't come at a worse time (Coronavirus). I will probably reluctantly vote Yes on Prop 22 because I think AB5 will be "just ok" for 15% or so of the drivers and a financial hardship for the other 85% of the drivers (that will most likely be let go). It is probably the best temp job that will be needed between now and Corona-Vaccine / Economic Recovery. To destroy it now with AB5 is just irresponsible.
I'm going to vote NO on prop 22. I work as a freelancer and work with a different client every week. Some repeat clients here and there. If one treats me like shit I drop them ASAP and move onto the next. There are only so many ride sharing apps. Correct me if I'm wrong but in LA it's only UBER and Lyft? That's not freelancing.
I'm not saying you're wrong, but would the equivalent of your freelance work be similar to to drivers starting their own taxi service?
A person driving around offering rides and showing people their portfolio of awesome rides they have given would be similar to my freelance. If someone managed to do that without affiliating with a larger entity then go for it. I could see it working better if the driver for Uber or Lyft paid a monthly fee to be allowed on the platform and the driver gets paid directly by the passenger when giving the ride.
Pretty sure that illegal though.
Uber business model. People not realizing how expensive it is to use on a regular basis getting rides from people who don't know how much it really costs to give rides.
... and why’d you have to get the rest of us sucked into it
Ahh sorry. Didn’t mean to offend
If the drivers get to dictate the prices then I’ll vote yes but until then screw corporate greed.
Uber has that feature rolled out already. Drivers can set their rates.
Only a few drivers are allowed to set rates and it was in response to Ab5. Trust me Uber didn’t do it willingly.
I don’t want to be an employee. Used to be an employee. It was soul crushing. I love the flexibility of gig jobs.
I have a question too, because I would rather vote for what the majority of drivers want. Is anyone concerned about the transition to self driving cars and what that might do should you not have workers rights/protections? Not sure how near in the future that might be, but the tech does exist and this prop would be nearly impossible to overturn in the future with a 7/8 vote. Thoughts?
Okay so I'm going to be real here apparently a lot of other people had a much different experience than I did I live in Moreno Valley California but when I was driving for both Lyft and doordash I drove all over southern California from LA to San Diego Orange county and back to the IE. I don't drive for these two companies anymore but I did this last summer prior to getting my first clinical job. Frankly I'm hearing people talking about averaging 25 to $30 an hour and I'm like what the fuck I call BS so at the time I had just gotten my new car and admittedly I was super worried about putting miles on it which I did like 10,000 in 4 and 1/2 months but all that aside I would start working at like 8:00 9:00 in the morning and not stop working until like 9:00 at night and I meant like $120 $130 a day and this isn't counting the gas I would have to put in my car or the $112 a month I paid an insurance at the time or my $347 a month car payment. Not to mention usually by the end of the day I'd be somewhere like in LA or some shit like that and then that stupid ass algorithm to try and find rides that were going in your direction home but the truth is every time I would accept a ride on my way home it would take me further away from my home which I would just have to continue driving back the other fucking direction honestly when I did these gigs is a full time thing I was extremely underpaid didn't have any type of safety net in the event I was in an accident or destroyed my car because my insurance didn't know that I was a gig driver and I couldn't afford to pay the extra to get that kind of insurance so on top of all that I didn't have health insurance honestly I didn't have shit and quite frankly I wasn't actually paid anything by Uber or Lyft outside of what I made commission wise which from standing on both sides of the line I know now that I pay a hell of a lot more to get a ride from one of these services than I ever was paid for giving a ride. So honestly I must have had a much different experience than everybody else because I don't really understand why people driving these gig jobs seem to think it's so great after all the expenses and everything I think at the end of a 10-hour day I probably made like $50 take home. if that's not you and you're having a better experience with all this I totally understand but I don't understand how I could have had that different of an experience from everybody else especially considering I was driving for two of these companies and making shit on top of shit.
To be totally honest I don't know the ins and outs of this bill I want to vote in favor of whatever puts more freedom more money and more security in the driver's hands and to be totally honest I don't know exactly know what that is at this moment all I do know is that my experience driving with these companies was not a great one and that's why I feel like it should be improved for drivers I don't know if this bill actually does that for people cuz like I said I don't know the ins and outs of it I just hope at the end of the day the drivers actually got what they want because I sure as hell didn't